Gondolas are back in the news today, thanks, at least in part, to the John Wright article in this morning's Standard-Examiner. Descente North America's Bob Geiger and Ogden lawyer Bernie Allen have collaborated with Ogden's Pinnacle Marketing, and whipped up a slick 16-page sales brochure, touting the benefits the two-legged gondola plan which their "group," Lift Ogden, has been strongly promoting recently.
Brimming with vivid color photos and impassioned testimonials, the brochure is included as an insert in this morning's paper. Except for the appearance of the John Wright article, I probably would have overlooked the brochure myself, as it was embedded in a stack of advertising material such as I normally put straight into the trash.
I think it's a good thing that "Lift Ogden" is keeping the discussion going regarding this fascinating transit proposal. There are forces within the community who are already trying to nip the gondola idea in the bud; and I do believe the concept is worthy of robust public discussion.
In the event you're one of the poor souls who don't get your very own daily Std-Ex delivered to your very own front porch as I do, you can view a PDF version of the brochure online at Descente's web-site here.
I've pored over the entire brochure several times this morning, and my own impression is there's way too much "hype" in this pamphlet to suit my analytical mind. The tone of the first ten pages is "inspirational," and downright "dreamy" enough to make an analytical type's eyes bleed.
Starting around page-11 however, there are a couple of pages that actually address at least some of the "objections" (the pamphlet authors labeled these "myths",) that have been raised as to this project. If you can get through the first ten pages, which I deem to be marketing "fluff," there is some actual actual factual information, including a short "outline style" section, entitled "SECOND: Physically unite the key components," which indicates at least some attempt on the authors' part to tie the whole concept together with our greater Wasatch Front urban environment.
We had a pretty vigorous and detailed discussion about the lower "leg" of the gondola project here on Weber County Forum a few days ago, too. If you missed my WCF article and the ensuing 80+ reader comments, you can read it all here.
I hope some of our gentle readers will give the brochure a thorough reading, and post your own impressions here. Perhaps a few of you still have some unanswered questions, which we can direct to Mr. Allen and Mr. Geiger.
Comments?
32 comments:
Yes, it is good to have the gondolas back in the news. I roll up my sleeves and wade into this with the enthusiasm of an elders quorum president touring Las Vegas's lapdance lounges.
I invite the individual members of Lift Ogden to state for the record how many times in a given year they actually ride a UTA bus. My guess is zero. How then can they possibly have a clue as to the most effective, realistic way to move people between the Intermodal Hub and WSU?
Whatever Lift Ogden is after, effective public transportation is the least of their worries. Reviving downtown Ogden is an essential and worthy goal, but is there no more solid basis for it than this harebrained gondola scheme?
The brochure is also avaliable on my blog and the SE's website. On my blog there is also a write-up on another aspect of the Malan's Basin development that seems to have flown under the radar. That aspect is Via Ferrata.
The Good in Ogden
Bernard Allen almost makes me want to bawl...."Can we at least participate in a small way?" My gawd, where is this coming from. Right now our city is at the bottom of the pile, but that is due to financial difficulties and leadership that have led to the demise of our badic needs and infrastructure. And now comes a pipe dream, dependent upon a gondola with 2 stops that will cost $25 million, and suddenly we'll be inundated with world travelers and the Utah Bigs beggin us to allow them in.
So, armed with a bowling alley and gynasium, with a non-stopping gondola outside, we march steadfastly into the 21st Century. I'm thinking that only the ferrets will survive.
When will these good people understand that our future can't be tied to some hairbrained gondola that runs up 23rd street with no way on and no way off? We need to rebuild the infrastructure and let private enterprise back into the picture in order to re-evolve.
And I thought that the ancient Greeks were the masters of mythology!
I note a conspicuous absence in the brochure of quotes and/or testimonials from the Mayor and City Council.
I find this curious.
Dian
The council members that are up for election are keeping their heads down. It must have entered their dim awareness somehow that their irrisponsible voting records on all of this nonsense of the mayor's is a dangerous position to be in right now.
The reason that the little mayor and his staff are silent is because they have these yo yo's speaking on their behalf. Like his father in law Dr. Allen, and his brother in law Bernie Allen, and the young know nothing followers that also poured out their sincere belief if all of this nonsense. In the brochure they try to make it look like this bull shit has wide public support. It is just another example of their "Big Lie" technique wherein if you tell the lie often enough and loud enough a certain number of people will believe it.
This brochure is full of lies and half truths. The cliique or ski enthusiasts that are doing this are all a very narrow special interest group. They want to build this grand scheme to make Ogden the city at the bottom of the ski lift on the backs of Ogden's poor and working class people. They are shameless at promoting their own special agenda's, and couldn't give a damn about the great mass of tax paying citizens that they would have pick up the tab for these obcenities. Remember these are the same people that would take poor folks homes away from them to give to WalMart!
It is all about money and how these cheap bastards want every one else to pay for their thrills.
If it were that great of an idea then why doesn't Holding's son in law build the damn thing himself? Why don't this elite group whip out their own check books and pick up their own damn tab for their fantasies?
It is the same old story - the rich and elite scamming the poor and powerless and making them pay for the prevliges that will only be available to the chosen few.
They are phony, self centered and completely removed from the needs and wants of the vast majority of the citizens of our town. The number of people in Ogden that ski, sky dive, wave ride, rock climb or even bowl is extremely small. The vast majority of the citizens of Ogden will not be able to afford to use any of these goofy attractions if they ever do get built. They will however get to pay for it all!
What sense does the gondola make if it can't ferry working passengers, to and from work, on any given day, rain, WIND, or snow.
The Godrey-ola is just that: a scheme perpetuated by the elite, for the elite at the cost of the middle and working classes. For $25 mil, it makes absolutley no sense at all.
Depending on the gondola, it can opperate in winds of up to 75 MPH, so throw that argument out the window. Next, it sounds like this Chris Peterson is doing something about it AND putting his money where it belongs.
And of course $50+ million of local taxpayer $$ for a streetcar makes perfect sense
Anonymous, you're reading the wrong study....75 mph winds my a--! Who are you guys kidding? That's your trouble....you just make up crap to fit your needs. I'd like to see you climb aboard in 75 mph winds, pal. And where the hell will you go to? From Wall to WSC to get on Peterson's Tram, which is OK, if HE PAYS FOR IT. I think you guys are just a bunch of slovenly freeloaders, jerking the public off for their tax dollars so you can pretend you're in Vail or Zermat, and ride this idiotic gondola.
You people haven't answered the real question: it's about mass transit, so how about the working class that needs on and off ports all over the city to go and come from work. If you clowns want a gondola, then you pay for it and make it so that it serves the entire population, not just you folks who think you're Stein Freakin Erickson!
Dude!
p.s.
First it's the City paying for stuff, now it's Peterson "putting his money where it belongs." When are you guys going to pony up and put your money where your mouth is?
Well, now--these comments are interesting. I have been thinking all along that I have missed something crucial in these gondola discussions, and I still feel that way.
It was first put to us that Lift Ogden was in favor of the gondola up the mountain. I will call this the Basin gondola. This was to be financed by Chris Peterson and/or Lift Ogden? Am unclear on this, but think that's what was said.
As I recall, the 2nd gondola, going from the hub to WSU, which I will call the Hub gondola, was billed as a separate project for which UDOT, or Federal transporation, might be asked to pay. The alternative to the Hub gondola was a streetcar.
But then, since it seemed unlikely that UDOT or any government entity would pay for the Hub gondola, we were told that private funding might be sought.
Now suddenly, the Basin and Hub gondolas are appearing as a tandem act in this brochure. And things get muddled insofar as financing goes.
My main question is---Why, suddenly, are we all being told how great this is and being exhorted to get behind it? ?
Do you think they want the rec center's tax increments, now that that seems to be stalled? For the Hub gondola, or both gondolas? Is this all about what to do with those increments, which will be "lost" if the project doesn't start by 31 December? Could the gondola projects even get them?
This whole discussion about gondolas verses street cars is just a big smoke screen! One is $25 million and the other is $50 Million or so. By comparing the two, these blood suckers are trying to pull the age old scam of trying to panic the public into going along with the cheaper scheme because it will cost us half as much.
It is called creating the illusion of a public need inorder to line the pockets of a few insider manipulators like the little guy on nine and his family and friends. That includes Dr Allen and his numb skull son and the Greiger clan and their hangers on.
The truth is that Ogden doesn't really need either one and won't for another 20 or 30 years. All we need to do is add another bus as the demand increases. We can add more as needed. They could probably add ten times as many busses as we currently have and nobody would really notice the increase on the roads. Ogden is one of the least bus congested cities in the whole country right now.
Busses are extremely inexpensive when compared with gondolas, trams or street cars. That of course is why every major (and not so major) city in the whole world uses them to meet most of their transportation needs. Besides, one can get on and off a bus at every corner.
This bulllshit brochure says that the gondola is a totally unique idea that isn't used any where else except for a few european resort communities. Did they ever stop their infernal dreamin and schemin long enough to figure out why that is? Did it ever occur to them that the reason might be that gondolas are not feasible for mass public transportation? Are these other wise smart people so deluded with their own bullshit that they can no longer see simple logic or the truth?
With gas prices finally breaking into the stratosphere and most likely not ever coming back down, there will be a huge increase in the demand for public transportation. A need that gondolas or trams certainly could never meet.
I agree, this whole thing appears to be another scam that this clique of rich skiers is trying to perpetuate on to the public. They are once again trying to get the poor folks to pay for their expensive toys.
Ozboy,etc.
You geniuses still haven't figured out that it's those "rich skiers" that are going to be pumping sales tax revenue into this city so you won't be paying so stinking much for property taxes. Stop your whining and be grateful that those with the cash are willing to do something about it here rather than taking trips to Aspen and Telluride!!
Often amused, seldom impressed!
How appropriate your name....
To Amused and his buddy, Opie-Dopie:
Hey, amused....the last time I checked, Snow Basin, Powder Mountain and Nordic Valley were located somewhere outside of the Ogden City limits. Was there an annexation that I missed? No? How then is the good city of Ogden going to reap all of those tax dollars from your buddies, the "rich skiers?"
You most be a pal of that Opie-opium guy. What are you people smoking? Whatever it is, there's no mystery why they call it dope, is there boys?
Of course Woodward, we all know that people stay the night on the ski slopes in a bed of snow, go out to have fun at night right on the ski slopes, shop for souveniers at those conveniently located shops right in the middle of the ski runs, and overall spend all of their money at the actual ski resort and nowhere else. A gondola supporter who happens to work at possibly the most chic ski resort in the nation said once that peopld simply do not realize how much money people spend on a trip. They can drop $40-50000 in a weekend without even thinking about it. Not to say that that will happen in Ogden, but it certainly could.
UtMoMan
I come to a another thread and once again there you are with another completely stupid comment.
Forty or Fifty thousand bucks a night for a vacationing skier! It may have happened somewhere sometime, but it sure as hell aint gonna happen in Emerald City my boy. Why would any fat cat do that when for that much dough they could charter a Lear 35 and go to Paris for the night and stay in the penthouse at the Ritz with hot and cold running maids and Dom coming out of the faucet!.
You still remind me of a returned missionary that can't quit proselizing. Now instead of Joe's story your out there hawking Matt's. Well Matt aint no Joe and his story is pretty sorry in comparison. If your gonna keep pitchin religion why don't you pick up on a cause that has legs and makes some sense like your last one?
Utmo, I knew you'd come back with that. The jet-set skiers aren't about to drop 50K in Ogden, even with a gondola, for hell sakes. Where do you get this dribble? If you skied, or knew anything about it, you would realize that those "jet-setters" hang out in Vail and Zermat, maybe Park City, because of the fact that the lifts and trams are right outside their houses and hotel suites. Those are "ski resorts" son, not some town like ours that takes a 30 minute bus ride to get there.
No city gondola is going to draw them here. They'll come here once Snow Basin looks like Park City, with all the collateral fun stuff and housing right there at the base of the ski runs.
50K per weekend....my lord, Utmo, I don't think you realize what that amount really is. They ain't about to drop that at Rooster's and Wise Guys after skiing Wildcat all day and staying at the Radisson or whatever it's called.
Have you been in a cave dude? Look into the Malan's Basin plans and then see how far away all of that will be.
Yeah, Opie, they'll just throw it up overnight, won't they?
Who are you geniuses? Hell, the Mayor can't even get Union Square up and running. Now he, you, and Descente/Snow Basin collectively are going to build Malan's Basin. The little old $40 million Wreck Center has taken 4 years, is stalled almost to the point that it is most likely going down in flames and you're thinking that the Malan Basin plans show a great resort that's not so "far away?"
I'll say this, you guys are entertaining. Wax up your skis, dude!
First, it is Chris Peterson doing it, not Snowbasin or anybody else. You all have been asking for private development for quite a while now. Well, here it is. There is an article on my blog (www.thegoodinogden.blogspot.com) that talks about Ogden's efforts to become a ski hub. That article says that the Malan's Basin stuff might possibly be done for the 2007 season. That's pretty quick!
UtMoBoy
There you go again, more irrational thinking caused by your lack of experience and knowledge and your blind need to follow a leader no matter how misguided that leader may be.
Chriss Peterson is Earl Holding's son in law. Earl Holding owns snow basin. Get the connection? Peterson gets his dough from his wife's dad, or at least from the allowance his wife gives him, which of course still comes from daddy.
Next question, Is Malan's basin in the Ogden City Limits? If not how is Ogden going to get any sales tax or property tax revenue from it?
If Malan's basin does get all developed out what is that going to do to the grand scheme of Ogden being the ski town at the bottom of the lift? Won't everyone just pass through town to go up into the mountains? That of course is what they do all around the world at ski resorts.
People that spend a lot of money to go on a ski vacation want to be in the rarified air of a mountain resort with all the chi chi ambience and the ski run right outside the lodge door. They don't want to spend it in some run down old industrial town full of poor folks!
Get a clue and pull your head out of your bum, please.
Of course, Utmo....good old Chris (the way you talk, you and he a good buddies and close business confidants....right) Peterson will have Malan's Basin all developed and up and running in a year and a half.
Once upon a time, you made a little sense. Now it's rose colored glasses and Bernie Allen Esq. (I noticed that very FORMAL connotation after his name in the Lift Ogden pamphlet, to make him sound REALLY important....Gee-zust!) that seem to be guiding you.
You're lost. Come on in out of the fantasy land.
Okay, I'll come right down to your level and shoot down every idea that ever comes up and let the city continue to be a waste land until my family and I move out of town so we can feel safe and go to good schools. No thanks! I'm perfectly happy being an "idealist" as Rudy says, and giving my all to have a better place to continue my family tradition in this town.
UtMoMan
"Okay, I'll come right down to your level and shoot down every idea that ever comes up....."
Puuleeese get your brain in gear and start thinking rationaly. We know you can do it.
People here are not "shooting down every idea" like you say, just the completely dumb ones. Well maybe you have a point, seems like every idea coming out of your crowd is being shot down - course now it may be because they all seem to be pretty dumb.
There is more than black and white in this world.
There are good ideas and there are bad ideas. It seems like it really is only the "bad ideas" that are getting shot down here. Like the idea that you can spend your way out of bankruptcy for instance.
Why don't you suggest to your big shot buddies that they start coming up with some good ideas. Like maybe how to fix the crumbling infastructure, or how to finally give some benifit to the tax payers from all these past RDA's instead of plowing every cent from them into this new and completely ridiculous Rec center idea. Or how to finance the Marshall White center. Or how about a program to instill some humility and compassion into the whole Godfreyite movement?
Ogden is in desperate need of solutions to major problems and bankrupting the city by chasing all of these wild dreams and schemes is only going to make things worse not better. We need real jobs and real reform not a bunch of off the wall boondogles, none of which will ever create many good paying jobs.
My grandma used to say you can't turn a sow's ear into a silk purse. Turning Ogden into some fancy ski resort is the same kind of idea.
Also one of the reasons Ogden's schools are so lousy is because of the vast amounts of money these RDA projects have stolen from them. Incidently can you name me even one of these projects that is financialy successful?
And please stay in Ogden, after all you are the towns future, or so I've heard.
Until people start coming up with better ideas than "sell the mall property" that has already been for sale for years and years, then I will keep on supporting people with actual ideas and people that are actually doing something about it, not just sitting back and complaining with their words. I spent part of my evening up at W.S.U. handing out gondola brochures. That is action! I will support groups that are doing those types of things. Heck, I have even given my kudos to CBCOF in the past, even though I think them totally wrong and repetitive on the issue, at least they are doing something!
Oh, and don't worry, I would have to get pretty frustrated to leave town. My family has a legacy here that I intend to keep moving forward.
Ahem, UmorMAN!
There hasn't been a time since about 1850 when the entire mall property was so marketable and saleable.
Think about it. This is the single time when this property has been freely marketable, in custom pieces, since my great-great grandfather arrived here, with instructions from Brigham young to purchase all the gentile interests in 1850.
Nobody really knows what could happen if the mall property would post a "for sale" sign pounded in at the mall-site, along with a listing from one of our local "top shelf" community real estate brokers. Nobody's tried that even since the mall was torn down. The site has alway been marketed as a "package," with the "Grand Plan" attached, which makes it unmarketable by itself.
We all know in our heart of hearts that the Rec Center project is dead. It's obvious. I've avoided prefacing a main article with Don Meredith's famous Monday Night Football song, mainly out of courtesy to my friend, Matt Godfrey, who's still trying to make a purse out of a sow's ear.
We all need to start thinking of other alternatives now. There's no way the Rec Center will happen, given present world economic circumstances, and the obvious environmental quality problems at the old mall site.
It's time to be practical and start looking at other alternatives, I think...
It's time to quit drinking the Kool-aid, and start thinking of what might really work, according to the mechanism of the free market.
I still do not think that the rec. center is dead. If it is, as you say, then hopefully the improving economic climate in Ogden will help the situation out.
"I still do not think that the rec. center is dead. "
Fine. Wait and see. I only have about 35 years real-estate experience, including lots of BIG projects.
In that time, I don't remember a single one succeeding with so many problems so late in the game.
Maybe Mayor Godfrey can pull a rabbit out of his hat.
Don't count on it, though.
Remember the December 31, 2005 "drop dead date," BTW.
It's time to reconnoiter and look at "Plan B," my friend.
Well then Rudi, maybe it would be of benefit to brainstorm here. Although I know Mayor Matt is a fighter and will fight to the end on this one.
This whole mall thing is now EGO driven rather than business driven.
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