By Curmudgeon
The Standard-Examiner is packed this morning with interesting articles, editorials and letters, well worth perusing.
First, on the front page, Mr. Schwebke has a story on the City Council's continuing attempts to find out who paid for the gondola financial analysis that was the subject of yesterday's editorial in the SE. Here are the opening graphs of the story:
OGDEN — The Ogden City Council is questioning whether Ogden’s administration funded a recently released fiscal impact study for a controversial gondola project.Curiouser and curiouser.
The council asked the administration in a letter Thursday to explain a Dec. 22 expenditure of $16,250 to Lewis, Young, Robertson & Burningham Inc., a Salt Lake City firm that completed the study.
The expenditure was later canceled.
The funds were to come from the city’s Crossroads of the West Historical District account, said City Council Executive Director Bill Cook.
The council also has asked the administration to detail two other financial postings of $16,250, dated March 9, for payments to Lewis, Young, Robertson & Burningham Inc. The council wants to determine whether those payments were actually made, Cook said.
Next, there is the SE's lead editorial on the opening of The Junction. It is a curious, and slightly schizophrenic piece. It opens this way:
"Some people are calling it a "risk," but as we look at The Junction development taking shape in downtown Ogden, it already looks like a victory to us."
And a bit further on, it berates those who opposed the Junction project from its inception:
"For many city residents, this day was hard to fathom. They predicted certain ruin and financial catastrophe. We know, because we still bear the lash marks: Years ago in this space, when the Standard-Examiner's editorial board encouraged the city to purchase the failed mall, demolish it and create something new in its place, lots of our readers responded angrily."
The editorial goes on to concede that:
"It's true, as we recognized at the outset, that this experiment in redevelopment has been expensive; the city has had to spread a lot of money around in the form of incentives. It's taken a share of profits from the Business Depot Ogden and more than a little debt to make this happen. Now, we hope, the momentum will be sufficient to begin making more happen -- along the east side of Washington Boulevard, north of Temple Square, etc. -- without the city having to prime the pump with taxpayer funds; we'll know soon enough."
OK, let me make sure I have this straight: According to the SE, the Junction is a victory, a success! [Hasn't opened yet, of course, but it's a success!] But the same editorial concedes only "hope" that the city will not have to "prime the pump with taxpayer funds" any further to cover the debt it has incurred already to fund the Junction's construction. Adding, fingers crossed, "we'll know soon enough."
Note to SE Editorial Board: If we are still "hoping" the Junction will be financially successful enough that taxpayers will not have to pour millions more into it, then your boosterism claim at the head of the editorial that it already looks like a winner seems a little out of place. I hope it does succeed. Very much. I hope it is successful beyond the wildest dreams of the Mayor and Council that invested city money in it. But we won't know that for a while. A little patience, please, before announcing victories. Let's let the evidence come in first.
Finally, there is a letter to the editor by John Arrington, Ogden's finance manager. He disputes the claim by some that Ogden's bonded indebtedness is $93 million instead of the approximately $20 the mayor claims. Mr. Arrington explains that "The Redevelopment Agency does have its own debt that is secured by new revenue generated by separate RDA projects. There is no city obligation for those debts, with two exceptions in which city assets were pledged in order to obtain significantly lower rates."
His argument would have been more convincing had he indicated how much Ogden city indebtedness the "two exceptions" involved, but, alas, he did not. [What is it with this administration about full disclosure? Why do they find it so hard?]
47 comments:
Why is it they repeatedly call this document a "study"
This is exactly why the newspapers cannot be trusted, Curm. There is no attention to language and it's real meaning. Some dismiss this as petty or insignificant. Unfortunately it is exactly this kind of subtle misrepresentation that leads to such divergent and uninformed positions on the part of the masses.
There was no studying involved in this document, especially by LYR&B. They simply assembled the mayor's and CP's hopeful figures into what masquerades as a study. When packaged by a firm with four last names and a very official looking logo it gives the figures legitimacy. What a crock...
Surely we want to know who paid for it and who authorized it but the real issue is the documents' relevance...zero. It is simply another brochure.
A study would look at the real value of the parkland and not just cash value. Screw cash value, aesthetic value is incalculable.
A study would look at the buildable land in Malan's and the foothill. It would examine the viability of building and operating a roadless resort completely by gondola support.
It would look at the various impacts to the 36th St area.
It would look seriously at appropriate transit options and not simply place ridership stats as the justification for a town gondola. Who cares how many will ride it. Will it contribute to the redevelopment of the central residential district? NO!
Why will the Junction fail? Because the central residential district is still not attracting enough affluence to support it. Why will it be years before the central residential district comes around. Because there is no transit corridor. We have a caricature main street in 25th. 3 blocks. Big deal. And no one lives within a few blocks. This is not rocket science. A transit corridor would encourage a pedestrian/commercial zone all the way from downtown to WSU. Want to make Ogden alive. There is the solution.
I too believe the Junction will fail. They are putting in too many "high end" shops and venues that are going to be to high priced. Especially for the people who live downtown. Sure there is a bowling alley and a movie theater. Yea, that will draw in the "right" crowds. I hate going to Tinseltown Theaters at Newgate. Look at all of the strange people you have to pass just to get there. Then I don't think I have been to a movie there where the audience was not loud and rude during the movie. I prefer to go north to the Walker Cinemas in Perry. Better prices and better atmosphere. One odd thing that no one considered is that the new theater at the Junction is Megaplex 13. Isn't there a gang in Ogden called O13???? Wonder if they will be hanging out at their new home??
How disrespectful can one get? I just opened the SE and on the Front page is a picture of the Mayor of Ogden tlaking on his cell phone while the flag is being raised. This is the guy that is suppose to set the example for all of us and then he disrespects the flag like this! I would like to here his side of the story on this maybe he has a good reason to for putting others first before our honored dead? This is just one more reason that I will not vote for him in the next election. This guy has offended me now one too many times.
It appears that the Mayor has joined the campain in earnest, I have to wonder if he wrote Arrington's disengenuous letter,and signed it as well. Who backs the RDA's credit? This letter answers the question qute well, THE TAX PAYER. RDA's are a usefull tool, but, don't you sense how this bunch is abusing them so blatantly, hand picking the participants and standing in the way of any assemblense of free enterprize.
I suggest it would be wise for someone to be forward thinking about the verry real possibility of this rec center's collapse, sooner than most would suspect. Gold's and Fat Cat can simply walk away, any time they choose to. As we've seen, the administration's projections for BDO revenue are all ready well over estimated and I haven't heard of any new large outfits signning up out there. Not an attempt to dampen this rosy cumbaya opening but, this little dream could turn nightmarish fast.
Maybe the Standard didn't hear the news, but it appears, according to the SLC papers, that Matt Jones has had his peace officer certification revoked.
They are now listing the reason as sexual misconduct as well as the trumped up charges associated with the Van Gate episode.
Does any one know about these "new" sex charges? Is this just more lies that Godfrey and Greiner have heaped upon Jones bacause they were both exposed by that incident as corrupt and evil and have a huge amount of guilty face to save?
Or, is Jones really guilty of these new charges?
I suppose I should be flattered that Arrington replied to my letter to the editor about Ogden's debt. Perhaps it was that letter that caused the mayor to come out with his disingenuous plan to reduce city debt.
Yet, it is he who has piled on debt with irresponsible abandon.
I stand by every word of what I said, and I assert that Arrington's letter is misleading.
So then, who is correct, who is forthright, who has an agenda, and who does not?
Let each individual now decide for himself.
I just noticed they printed my letter to the editor today. But they edited out the fact that after they sold that golf course in Las Vegas to the mayor's friend, THEY CHANGED THE ZONING SO HE COULD BUILD HOUSES ON IT.
Sound familiar?
Waterboy and Tec:
In re: your predictions that the Junction will fail. First, I hope very much that you are wrong. Second: It's up, it's opening, and all predictions, whether of "victory" and success or "defeat" and abject failure now are more or less moot. Predictions and expectations play an important role while a city government is debating whether to invest in a project. Once it has made the investment, predictions don't matter a hill 'o beans. From that point on, only events at they play out matter. The crowds will come and spend or they won't. All we can do now is wait and see, with fingers firmly crossed that they will.
The SE, clearly, thinks the City made a wise investment. OK, fair enough. Only problem I had with the editorial as I read the opening "victory" claim was this: I imagined the SE Editorial Board, all wearing flight suits, striding onto the deck of the good ship "Ogden Junction" proclaiming to the voters "Mission Accomplished!"
Not yet, guys. Not yet. Evidence first, conclusions later is the right order, not the reverse.
David S:
Sounds like another silent edit by the SE letters staff. They really have to stop doing that. In this case, they took out a salient point in your argument. They really need to stop doing that. Run as written, don't run at all, or edit with author's approval are the only good options for editing a letters page. Thanks for pointing out what they did. Good illustration of why they shouldn't do it.
But don't grouse just to us. Let the managing editor know what they did, how they changed significantly the content of your letter. And let the editorial page editor, Mr. Porter I believe, know about your objection to having your letter substantively edited without your permission or knowledge. People tell me he's willing to discuss his decisions. He won't necessarily agree with you, but you ought to let him know how you feel about what the paper did to your letter, and ask why the paper did it. And let the upper editorial staff know too. [I'd suggest approaching them with a "more in sorrow than in anger" tone.]
They really need to stop doing that.
Part of the problem I expect is the SE's foolish decision a couple of years ago to limit letters to 250 words [down from I think the old limit of 350]. That is far too constricting a limit for a reader to discuss [rather than just voice an unsupported opinion about] a significant issue. My guess is, they cut your letter to fit the 250 limit.
Which, come to think of it, might be why Mr. Arrington did not include the figures in his letter about city financial risk on the "two exceptions" he mentioned. If the 250 word limit was the reason, my apologies to him. If that was it, the SE's ridiculously stringent word limit made it difficult, if not impossible, for him to be as forthcoming as he might have wanted to be. If that was the reason....
Curm,
For the sake of the city I sincerely hope that the Junction does not fail. However, the only problem with the Junction being a success makes the mayor look (dare I say it) good.....uggghhhhh.
From what I have heard the mayor has his own militia (Ogden Police)scheduled to make sure that all "unsavory" individuals are escorted off the property before anyone sees them. Granted that is part of the police officers job, but lets be realistic, there is a whole city full of people with police needs. Don't be too surprised if the mayor comes unglued with OPD when the first "incident" happens at his science fair project. Forget about the real crime in the rest of the city as long as the "Precious" is not sullied.
Curm,
I agree with your points regarding my letter and the fact that it's hard to do much with 250 words in a letter to the editor (or for that matter with the two or three minutes the planning commission and city council give the public, as opposed to the unlimited access city employees seem to have in all three venues.) No wonder people get a government-centric view.
In my letter I mentioned that after they sold the golf course to the mayor’s crony they re-zoned it for houses, and I also mentioned his name. They deleted both of these facts. Thus a very information-laden letter was diluted to the point of making me look more like a crank. (“I bethca they do this sorta thing in Vegas too” the citizen said, waving his pitchfork.) I tell myself it was to protect me, and them, from lawsuits. But I don’t know.
And my letter WAS less than 250 words to begin with. (And there were even more similarities between the Vegas deal and Godfrey’s that I didn’t include!)
On the other hand, I do appreciate them for printing letters. Perhaps next time, I’ll include a statement that they are not to substantially edit my letter without my permission. I may also call the paper and ask them why they did such a hatchet job on this last one.
Hopefully Mr. Schwebke follows up and gets to the bottom of why the expenditure ($16,250) was cancelled in the first place. I think it could be revealing. The Mayor's explanation does not cut it, how does he not know for sure. A $16+thousand confusion for who was paying the bill? Also, why was money earmarked for "historic" purposes being peddled to further a gondola study, there is no link there.
Jill:
I'd be very interested, for starters, to know the date on which the payment was canceled. If it was at the time the existence of the "study" was about to became public knowledge [after having been kept secret from the Council as well as the public for half a year, even though the report states it was done for "Ogden City,"] that would suggest to me the Administration yanked the check back only when it was clear it was all going to hit the papers, including that they'd paid for a gondola report out of the Crossroads of the West Historical District budget. At this point, just a speculation. But all this is yet another example of how this administration's nearly paranoid aversion to open government and full disclosure creates problems for it, how it actually makes things worse.We shall see, I guess.
As I said, curiouser and curiouser.
I would guess it is more of a matter of fact checking. You are making allegations that would border on slander/libel if not true and they printed it.
My guess is that was easier to delete than check out.
.
I told myself I wasn’t going to do anymore posting here on “naysayer central.” But some of you have been expressing excitement about my Salomon Center! And with the recent SE editorial about my gondola study (where they called and got all the facts from me), and after today’s editorial that I basically wrote for them, I felt that perhaps things are starting to go my way! So I thought I’d let you in on a little more information!
First, let me give you a quick list of ten reasons why the Sal Center will be a unique, one of a kind, not duplicated anywhere, family fun center for the whole family.
1. It will be unique.
2. It will be one of a kind.
3. It will be unlike anything else.
4. It will be for family fun.
5. It will be a center for fun.
6. It will be for the whole family.
7 through 10. There were a lot of other reasons the salesmen and contractors told me that I can’t remember, but they were really good reasons, believe me.
Now, you might be wondering why this will be so unique. Well let me ask you, how many places can you go, where you can bowl and get fast food, right at the same place? Add miniature golf and bumper cars, and you’d have to go all the way to Salt Lake to get that - to the 49th Street Galleria before it went broke, or after they renamed it the Utah Fun Dome before it went belly up. But there will be even more to do at the Sal Center, once we plug in the flow rider and fill it up with water. (Although we won’t have an arcade like the Fun Dome did before it went out of business.) Anyway, how many places are like that?
But the real draw . . . is the SKYDIVING BLOWER!!
Think about it, people spend $40 for a day’s fun at Lagoon, or maybe $60 at a ski resort including the skis. They spend $80 for a day at Disneyland. But ask yourself this. What if a person wants to drop seventy five bills but doesn’t have all day? Well in Ogden, people can get $75 worth of fun – and it will only cost them SIX MINUTES!! People are always saying they don’t have enough time. So now, we are the only place in the West where you can spend a whole lot of money to have fun, and use up only a few minutes of your time! It’s pure marketing genius. And I was able to do it all for $50 million in taxpayer money, with change.
And if we get only ten percent of the business that Disneyland gets, it will be a pure goldmine! Think of it! Only ten percent and it will still be a goldmine!! (Of course, if we get less than 10% of Disneyland’s traffic it could be a huge problem.)
Anyway . . . Victory!! Lift Ogden!!!
You know, before I became mayor, it seemed like I used to get taken for a ride every time a new huckster came along. But now, as I look back, I can’t believe how much I’ve grown in this job, and how much smarter I’ve become. The people at the paper have always been able to see that. Thank goodness some of you naysayers are starting to see it too.
To perhaps:
Good point.
Thanks.
Perhaps:
Newspaper in the town I used to live in, when that happened and they thought the letter worth it, used to fact check it themselves or they'd call the writer and ask him to corroborate what he'd written.
They once held a letter I wrote about a for-blacks-only graduate scholarship program the university had created called "The Nubian Pre-Doctoral Academy." [The name has since been changed.] A few weeks went by, and finally the letter editor called me and said they would run it the next day. I asked why the delay. He said: "We didn't believe you, that the U. would have a program named that. We were afraid that you were some racist crank. We had to check it out. You were right. We put a reporter on it and we're doing a story about the academy tomorrow, same day we run your letter."
Seemed like good editing work to me.
Hey Hero....
It looks to me that the mayor is not talking on his cell phone, but is really telling all of us. Up yours, look closely it does.
To Curm:
An even better point.
Curm,
I really hated to make that dire forecast. I'm going tonight and paying my 25 bills in support and out of curiosity. Last week when discussing here the Van's Skate parks , I researched and was shocked to find how many of them have closed down. These were ALL in high end malls in affluent communities. Ogden pales in comparison to the disposable income about some of the locales. Our little downtown would fit inside of some of these shopping malls. I don't know if it was the mall locations, the price of admission, the fickle nature of skateboarders always needing new terrain. Likely a combination of all these elements and more. If so, the outlook here is chancy, as there was far more potential in those locations and hundreds of thousands more in the captive audience. I kind of chuckle at the hokiness of it all. AmerSports is a major business. I sometimes think Mr. Dowse allowed the mayor to completely envelop his perception of Ogden. I understand. To have a mayor invite you up to his lair and introduce you to staff and show you such bold plans can get one excited. Even a corporate player like Amer can find themselves over their head and getting played. It would be a major embarassment to Amer to have the Salomon Center choke. Imagine this scenario, It struggles and Salomon ends up on the hook to bail it out to save face and their flagship building. After all, they are getting the name recognition free and a $10 million incentive. We'll see and I hate to predict failure but it is a civic project and demands close scrutiny. It better fly...
It's certainly an interesting speculation as to whether the Junction fails or succeeds. Much of it will depend on the synergy with the other building projects on the old mall site, many of which haven't even broken ground yet. So it's a work in progress. Here's an interesting proposition: can surveillance cameras tell us how many guests from Lift Ogden or Smart Growth Ogden are circulating with wrist bands tonight? Then we can know once and for all which faction loves dear old Ogden the most.
And I surely hope that Tec and others will give detailed reports about how it came off. It won't be difficult to outdo whatever drab account the S-E prints. Hey, maybe UTMorMAN can send pictures from his cell phone camera!
Curm....I'm purely speculating. They may fact check and delete. Or they may not fact check and delete. They my just delete to rile people up so they stop writing. I don't know. Was just offering a less sinister option.
Verifying a program name is a bit simpler than verifying a shady land swap.
Perhaps:
I thought your suggestion... deletion to avoid libelous allegations... was a good one. Had not occurred to me. As for the "shady land swap" matter: as I recall, the golf course sale, the circumstances under which it happened, allegations of cronyism, etc. got extensive coverage in the press down there, and I think in possibly in western regional papers [like High Country News] or even in the NYT. I remember reading about it in I think one of those two. If I were the letters editor and worried about the land swap content, I probably would have called up Dave and asked for corroboration, and accepted news coverage [in the same terms Dave used] as corroboration.
But, again, glad you offered up an alternative explanation that hadn't occurred to me. Got me thinking, which is always good.
MM:
You wrote: Much of it [i.e. the Junctio's success] will depend on the synergy with the other building projects on the old mall site, many of which haven't even broken ground yet.
I suspect you are right about that. I wonder how long the early-opining businesses can keep on keeping on as they wait for things to develop fully. Frontrunner is a year away. Gold's monthly nut, for example, must be huge, given the lease payments it has to make according to the SE. As you say, we shall see. My insomniac wee-hours-of-the-morning fear is that key anchor businesses at the Junction, like Golds, will not prosper, and then we will hear the cry "we have to go ahead with the gondola/gondola park sale and Peterson land speculation scheme to save the Junction! It will bring in Paris Hilton and all her money-squandering friends and save the day!"
Just one of the reasons I hope the Junction succeeds as it is presently conceived....
Curm:
You're absolutely right that if the rec center doesn't succeed, Godfrey will blame it on the lack of a gondola. He pretty much said this out loud at one of his gondola dog-and-pony shows last summer. He predicted that the rec center would be successful at first, but then others would copy it and it wouldn't be unique any more so we'd need something else unique to keep downtown alive--and that would be the gondola. Didn't seem to occur to him that anyone else (maybe Snowbasin?) might build a gondola, rendering ours no longer unique.
Aren't we bonded for about twenty million dollars for the rec center that we were not allowed to put to a vote of the people? Because this is a "republic...and you voted for me and I will make the decisions for the people". ? mg.
So, if the rec center is BONDED...how come mayor can tell us with a straight face that that is all the bonded debt we have?
Liar liar
pants on fire!
Tec...hope you look for the producer in his yellow shirt. Ought to match the yellow down the mayor's back.
Dan:
Ah, the Snow Basin gondola. Built at no expense to the city. Goes up from the base to Needles Lodge, carrying skiers and tourists alike in the winter; hikers, bikers and tourists in the summer. Mr. Holding has his own special gondola car on it. [Leather seats I think.] Quite a spectacular ride. We take friends and guests up when its running, winter or summer, routinely.
Of course, a flat gondola ride running along city streets all the way will clearly be much more of a tourist attraction than Snow Basin's gondola. Surely only a naysayer would deny that. They'll probably have to close the Snow Basin gondola down, they'll lose so much business to people riding from downtown Ogden to Weber State and back. Poor Mr. Holding may be forced onto welfare once Hizzonah's flatland tourist sky ride starts operating. Doesn't seem fair....
Some points:
It cost about $20 million to buy and tear down the old mall, and another $20 million or so to build the rec center. None of it is RDA, but is all city debt. So the bureaucrat that tried to rebut the letter writer, it appears, was simply lying.
As far as Godfrey claiming people will copy the rec center, what an arrogant jerk. His indoor rec center is nothing new, just as the rest of what he has done in nothing new. He is as unimaginative as he is incompetent.
He’s like the kids who think they invented sex, and are too dumb to see how dumb that would be. Godfrey a visionary? I’m living among apes.
david s. -
John Arrington made a mind-boggling statement in his today's Letter to the Editor which shows that he doesn't understand what is going on with Ogden RDA debt any better than any body else in Ogden City government does.
He makes this statement:
"There is no city obligation for these debts" meaning RDA debt. He does admit that the RDA Agency has its own debt secured by RDA projects.
Page 50 of the June 30, 2006 Independent Auditors' Report states very succinctly:
"The accompanying financial statements include all activities of the City and Ogden Redevelopment Agency (RDA). The RDA was included because the separate governing bodies of both entities are comprised of the same individuals and the CITY IS FINANCIALLY ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE RDA".
Arrington is the City's CPA who advises them on financial matters so now we know why Ogden RDA members don't know anything about RDA debt liability.
He owes Ogden taxpayers the figures on all current debt. What we have in the Audit Report are year old figures and lots has happened.
Stick by your guns.
Thank goodness for David S. and Dorothy!
An insightful letter today, David. Sorry it was 'edited'. I don't think that was an accident. it was deliberate, IMHO, so that the clueless readers wouldn't make a comparison to Peterson and Godfrey.
Dorothy, what WOULD we do without you? YOU should be the City CPA!!
Thank you both for exposing the manipulations, lies and machinations going on in Ogden.
I would be interested in knowing
where the proceeds from tonight's "Sneak Peek"
will be going. At $25-$30 a wristband, that should generate a hefty income. Anyone know?
Thanks.
anyone:
Some of us have been asking the same question for a couple of days now. Still no answer.
Did anyone go to the big blowout tonight?
Mrs. Monotreme and I took a "pass", figuring, like Curm, that $25 for pizza and a movie was a bit steep.
We might make ourselves a date and go miniature golfing in the dark some future weekend night.
I'm just curious what the estimated attendance was, and the reaction of the people who attended.
Saw the story on the news at 6. "Crowds", the announcer said. I could only see a handful of people. Maybe the lighting was bad.
Mono:
I imagine the SE will have full coverage tomorrow, with crowd estimates and/or tickets sold, and man-in-the-street interviews with attenders, etc.
Whatever the number of tickets sold/people attending, it will be pronounced by the Mayor and Envision Ogden as a grand success, and a sure fire harbinger of Ogden's grand future. Just as happened at the old Mall was pronounced to be at its opnening before events intervened and we had to tear it down for the next Silver Bullet fix for Ogden's future.
None of what happened tonight or this weekend will matter much in the long run. That's true if the turnout was far greater than expected, or if it turns out to have been a pallbearers crowd. How many people turn out steadily over time is what will make or break The Junction's businesses and the project overall. But we will get the inevitable Babbitry that has [sadly] come lately to be the hallmark of the Ogden-Weber Chamber of Commerce [a wholly-owned subsidiary it seems these days of Peterson/Godfrey Inc.] That --- the Babbitry boosterism --- is only to be expected. It's what Chambers of Commerce do, with or without good reason.
Be patient. All the whooping babbitry in the world won't bring people out over time if they don't find what's on offer attractive and affordable. Nor will all the predictions of dire failure in the world keep them away if they do.
I did see one of Channel 2's talking heads... one of their stable of chirpy young women "reporters"... gliding about in the wind tunnel, and gushing about the experience. One of the older talking heads, the male anchor of their evening news, asked how much it cost to ride the wind tunnel. Chirpy T.H. replied "$50 for two minutes, but that includes training" and added that "it's well worth it." [English translation: she didn't have to pay for the ride.] Another talking head wondered how much the wind tunnel machine cost, and was told "$3 million dollars." She then opined that at the rates they were charging, they would "make their money back quickly." For the life of me, I couldn't tell if she was being sarcastic or not. She delivered the line deadpan.
Hell, I don't know. Maybe they'll be having people lined up ten deep opening to closing to ride it. Fifty bills for two minutes is way out of my league for entertainment. {That's $25 dollars a minute. That's more than plumbers charge. Hell, that's more than lawyers charge!] But perhaps there are enough people with enough disposable income to make it a big draw. I certainly hope so, since we taxpayers shelled out to build it.
Godfrey forgot to tell the most important successful part of the new development.
It was a successful corporate welfare program, for his and Chief Senator Greiners, “buddies.”
They’re Robin Hood in reverse. They take for the poor and give to the rich. Just look at how shitty the Cops and Firefighters are paid.
It’s a dam disgrace to the Republic.
We need Neil Hansen to be the MAYOR, now more than ever!!!
Well, my first attempt to visit the new Junction has come a-cropper. The movie No. 2 son and I want to see Sunday shows two hours earlier at the Tinseltown Mall theater than at the Junction theater and since he leaves for SLC right after, it's Tinseltown for us, this time I'm afraid.
So, first attempt is a no-go. Will try again down the road. But for the nonce, Tinseltown has the edge on this one. More convenient show time.
BTW, I hope somebody at Miller Theaters noticed the suggestion of devoting a screen to Spanish-language films. Mexico has a large and thriving movie-making industry, I understand, and booking such in on one screen in Ogden might sell a not-inconsiderable number of tickets. Just a suggestion....
Curm,
I won't diss the Spanish MADE movies, but, being a die-hard Democrat you may have missed Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger's advice to the Mexican Lobby?
He was the speaker at their event in which they wanted his advice (yeah, riiight) on how to better the opportunities for Mexican children.
Here it is: Stop watching Spanish speaking TV. Stop reading books written in Spanish. Stop speaking Spanish!
Watch English speaking TV. Read books written in English. SPEAK ENGLISH! Immerse themselves in the American way of life. This will do more for the education and success of Hispanic children than anything else. (paraphrased).
Arnold should know. He came to America from Austria and remade himself into a true American. Look at the success he has generated for himself and others and that they all enjoy.
I understand his Mexican hosts were not too pleased. But, Arnold and Bill Cosby speak wisdom to the very communities that have their hands out looking for a piece of the 'American Dream" without wanting to lift too many fingers on those hands to achieve those dreams.
Good on ya, Arnold and Bill!
So, have the Spanish MADE films...but not an entire screen given over to them. Telemundo runs them and the soap operas all day. Surf the channels....several radio and TV channels are given over to Spanish!
More English, Japanese, Australian, Indian, etc would be a welcome treat.
The money was going to EnivisionOgden. Look in S.E. to find a several month old article to find out who started and is in the organization. But as I recall it is a group of Ogden people promoting the city for its recreation et. al.
I have no idea that total number of people there last night, but it was busy.
Attendee:
EnvisionOgden was organized after the implosion of Lift Ogden. Think of Lift Ogden, but with adult leadership, and you'll be close.
English Si:
Arnold's advise was right on the money. Immersion is a very effective way to learn a language. But learning one language does not mean forgetting another. Learning a new one makes you bi-lingual, and full capable of enjoying Spanish language cinema as well as English language movies. The notion that anyone who learned Spanish as a primary language and who lives in the US necessarily cannot speak English is a false one.
Every study shows recent Hispanic immigrants are learning English at the same rate Italian and German and Polish immigrants did during their great migrations in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.
In any case, the reason Mr. Miller might want to consider a Spanish language screen is to sell more tickets. He's running a business, not a language immersion program. Even if wholly Spanish speakers refuse to follow Arnold's advice, if they are a significant market for theater tickets to Mexican films in Ogden, I imagine Mr. Miller will be happy to accommodate them. I would if I owned the place.
The problem of course Mr. Curmudgeon is that non English speaking immigrants are not the audience Mr. Miller Incorporated is interested in catering to. He provided intertainment and cars to the upper middle class citizens of Utah, of which there are a whole lot of. They drive nice cars, they live in nice houses, they have nice jobs, they have nice disposable incomes, they go on dates with nice girls, they have nice kids with nice toys, they go to nice theatres, and they like to mingle with nice people like themselves.
The only thing most of them want to know about Mexicans is located in the so called Mexican restraunts, or in Miller's case some bastardized version of Mayan food and decor.
As to the real honest to God spanish speaking immigrants who may go to a spanish language films, I don't think Miller or his nice people clientel are going to want to share the same space. Just a hunch.
I'm also not sure that a spanish speaking audience would gravitate and spend money at the fast food options the theatre provides, including the Protestantization of the Mayan food that Lilly White Larry sees as representative of that culture. This food court biz is a very big part of the Miller theatre cash flow. They make a hell of a lot more profit on selling fast food than they do in showing movies.
Bottom line is the spanish speakers do not have the money the nice people do, and it's all about money honey.
Oz:
Possibly so. I suspect the planners of the Junction did a lot of spade work on the demographic they were expecting to draw, market analyses, etc.... you know, the kind of thing Hizzonah and Mr. Peterson and their Amen Chorus are avoiding like the plague when it comes the Peterson gondola/gondola real estate speculation scheme. You could be right.
But I, bleeding heart Democratic liberal that I am, have great faith in market forces and in the educatory [ is that a word? Well, if it isn't, it should be] power of greed. If it looks like running top grossing films from Mexico will put a lot of fannies in a lot of seats, such films will be run. Nor would I assume that Spanish-speakers are, as a group, unlikely to be able to afford the occasional flick and bag of overpriced popcorn.
As for movie revenues, what I read [and I don't read the trades; mostly the NY Times business section on this] is that many theaters make virtually no money on admissions for a first run mega film --- say Spidy3 or Pirates 3 --- that all goes to the studios for rental of the film. That the only money they make comes from concessions on such films. Hence $3.50 sodas and $4.50 tubs of popcorn. [Do you know the markup on popcorn? If you marked up a loan like that, you'd be arrested for loan-sharking, and --- not too many centuries ago --- have been excommunicated for usury.]
puhleeze give it a rest. you really don't have to argue every angle of each comment or idea expressed here. speaking english in no way causes a hispanic from keeping his native language.
sometimes i wonder what the heck you smoke or drink?
English Is:
You wrote: speaking english in no way causes a hispanic from keeping his native language.
Of course it doesn't. Which means, even if every native Spanish speaker in the US learned flawless English, Spanish-language films in places like the Megaplex might still put a lot of fannies in a lot of seats. Which is the only point I was making.
Well why does it take 5 paragraphs, then, to say that????
Arnold's point was that Hispanics and all immigrants should stay away from those venues in which they only speak , read, and hear their native language UNTIL they have learned English and can contribute, attend school, work etc. That is the path to success.
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