Updated 6/18/07 with two additional eye-witness reports
By Tec Jonson
I visited the Junction last eve.
Was surprised to see admission was boosted to $30 day of show. I don't remember seeing that in the website but "Gotcha's" are what these things are all about. I opted to mill about the outside and smudge the windows with my noseprint.
Pretty decent crowd. Many attractive women. Cost Vida too crowded to sample. Glad I didn't pay 30 bills to wait in line for food. Flowrider seemed to be open even though the promotionals said it was going to be demo's only. Flowrider looks very fun. Can't wait for my turn. Everyone seemed to be having a great time and wanting to return. It is smaller than I pictured but can accomodate plenty. I was surprised to see the flowrider completely enclosed from the rest of the place allowing control over groups and time limits. Although you can view the action from Costa Vida while munching you cannot participate with hoots and hollers being walled off by floor to ceiling glass. The other flowriders I see online appear to be more integrated into the surrounding public areas and eating patios. This enhances the party atmosphere and allows audience participation. If you are inside the Salomon Center and wish to eat at Costa you must walk outside the building and around the side to enter. I may be mistaken but I did not see any passage directly from Costa into Salomon. I thought this to be pretty stupid and cheaping out in the plan. The sound of the wind tunnel from the outside is pretty loud. Sounds like an industrial process.
The climbing wall was mobbed. This place could fly but crowd numbers can be deceiving in the context of debtload. Walking away the crowds seemed miniscule from a distance. Looking down Washington Blvd the sidewalks are still empty, many adjacent commercial property still vacant and boarded up or posted for lease or sale. Ugly vacant lot right across street at 23rd with exposed concrete foundations and undercut retainers. Driving home up 23rd I see hundreds of Ogden's regular citizens porch hopping and enjoying a warm late spring evening. I wonder how many of them were even aware of the happenings down the street. There was as much or more street activity on Monroe between 23rd and 25th as at the Junction and there was no Sneak Peak event there.
All in all, it felt just like another mall but with some unique attractions. It will need to sustain at least this level of crowd day-in, day-out to succeed. Someone here mentioned the spire in front of the theater. I also find it odd. It is indeed reminiscent of many that grace some LDS temples. Could even be sacriligious. These kind of monuments traditionally were representative of a connection to the heavens. Putting this on the front of a movie theater that sermonizes in the form of blood n' guts, extreme violence and profanity, jackass experientials, sexual situations, etc. strikes me as kind of scary. Larry Miller you are a wierdo. I am with Curm. We need to see more intellectually challenging films. Political documentaries are the rage now.
See: "America: Freedom to Facism", "Iraq For Sale", "Loose Change"...
How about some Bollywood. I love Indian cinema. The soundtracks and dance arrangements are amazing.
Well that is my report and I'm stickin' with it.
Next Junction report will be after I try to flail my way to riding the flowrider.
Editor's addendum: Honorary Weber County Forum reporters Jordan Muhlestein and Scott Schwebke also attended last night's "sneak preview event," presumably with complimentary passes on wrist -- unlike Tec Jonson, our own reporter. (Once again Weber County Forum, the juggernaut of northern Utah electronic journalism, gets absolutely no respect.)
Ace Reporter Schwebke offers his keen observations here, and Mr. Muhlestein reports on the special 24/7 OPD security detail, which not surprisingly occurs courtesy of the taxpayers' dime.
Update 6/18/07 7:23 a.m. MT: In the interim since original publication of this article, we've received two particularly thoughtful and additional eye-witness reports of Friday night's Salomon Center "sneak preview." For our readers' edification, we link regular-contributor Ozboy's typically astute and humor-laden "take" here, and Not Pessimistic, Just Realistic's highly-detailed write-up & analysis here.
116 comments:
I saw Scott Schwebke briefly, I tried to make friendly small talk but he was in a hurry to leave for some reason. I think he was afraid I was going to nail him on his reporting. Actually I was going to compliment him on his recent work but he didn't give me a chance. He rudely walked away after we exchanged handshakes. Still think your O.K. Scott. It's a big world. Who has the time to chat with everyone.
Not surprised that PeeWee's Playhouse drew a crowd last night. I always let the kiddies watch the show even though PeeWee himself needed supervision. A lot of supervision. And although the show was ill-conceived, the innocent children couldn't see that...all they knew is that it was, superficially, quite entertaining. Of course, it was not long before PeeWee crashed and burned, taking his show with him. As a taxpayer, I hope this show does not suffer the same fate.
See my reply to Curm wanting a screen dedicated to Spanish speaking films...on the thread below!
Doesn't sound like thousands were in attendance. Might be a good thing since people had to stand in line for a bite to eat. The attractions will bring in people for awhile, but not when they end up standing in line like at Disneyland for a short ride.
Sure hope the thing flies. My tax dollars are tied up in it...so are yours'.
Interestingly, yesterday's Deseret News reported that "[t]ickets cost $35 online at www.envisionogden.org or $45 at the door"
Downtown Ogden taking off
Looks like the promoters decided to take what the market would bear.
And once again we ask who pocketed the money from last night's event?
Boss Godfrey's campaign 2007 committee?
(We'll be keeping a close eye on this year's campaign financial disclosure statements, fer shure.)
There was a banner hanging from the admissions table that read Weber Entrepreneur Association. Here's their website.
Visit Our Site
I didn't mean to be anonymous....my post went too fast.
Tec:
Jeez, these groups are breeding like rabbits. First Lift Ogden, which imploded. It seems to have reorganized, this time with adult leadership, as Envision Ogden. And now the Weber Entrepreneur Association seems on board. What's next I wonder?
Thanks for the report Tec. I got the sense, after reading Schwebke's write up, that he left real early or didn't want to report unfavorably about crowd size. All he said was the promoters expected thousands. Was that like last years lift Ogden taco giveaway rally at the muni building? Estimates between 150 and 800, depending on who was asked.
Tec, was there anything other than the flo-rider you would concider wanting to try down there? To me nothing there even appeals or induces me to want to check it out. Much better food on two bit st. and I'd much rather be outside than in some indoor imitation outdoor recreation hub. Sounds like if the wind tunnel is running you won't enjoy sitting outside in that expensive plaza either. I believe I'll have to pass on little matty world.
English si:
You wrote: See my reply to Curm wanting a screen dedicated to Spanish speaking films...on the thread below!
I replied on the thread below, but let me not here that saying that I "want" a screen dedicated to Spanish speaking films is not quite accurate. I said I hope the theater management considers it because it might sell a lot of tickets. Might not. But if it would generate a substantial audience, I'd say the wise business decision would be to go ahead with it. If it helps make the Junction and Megaplex bring in customers --- yes, even Spanish-speaking ones --- what's not to like? Certainly worth a shot, que no? As far as I'm concerned, if there was a market in Ogden for films in Serbo-Croatian, I'd devote a screen to that to in any megaplex I ran.
The Ogden City website has nothing new about the Junction on the homepage. I'm trying to find out if there are going to be season or member-like passes sold for the flowrider. Kind of strange that the city website isn't even updated on all this considering the obsession with it.
EnvisionOgden.org doesn't even have anything I can find. Is there even a website for the Junction??
The Envision website is looking better than the last visit. It is a grand repackaging of all the press release factualities and truthiness surrounding the vision.
Since the lights on Washington have traditionally been timed to discourage traffic, I generally go through (rather than around) downtown about every six months.
My normal reaction on those occasions is "oh, there's a new place" followed by "oh, it's already closed" the next time I pass through. Do I really expect anything different this time?
Hey, guys, give Schwebke a break. I expect he was working on a deadline, and this shindig was supposed to run past ten, wasn't it? "Expected attendance" was probably all he could report when they went to press. Almost had to rush to get something together quick. He wrote a standard to-be-expected "big magilla something opens in home town" story. There really was nothing more he could have done with it than he did, and for this kind of story, there really was nothing more he should have done with it.
And, Bill C, I don't know how to break this to you, compadre, but most of the Junction attractions seem to be aimed at a customer base... how to put this delicately... not quite as long of tooth as you and I are.
It seems to have gone well. Respectable crowds showed up, and a good time seems to have been had. All things considered, a good jump start for the Junction.
Only thing I found a little disconcerting was the SE story emphasizing heavy police protection for the first two weeks. The backstory there seems to be the Powers that Be are concerned about what was apparently the high-crime rep of the old Mall parking garage. [I wasn't here for that, so am going only on reports.] That they are so concerned is a little disconcerting. But good that they're being pro-active, at least during the jump-off weeks.
The Junction got a good start. Kudoes all around.
I vote yes for Spanish language films. It will be a sign of their business acumen if they would really do that. I doubt it. It will be a testament to the selective and coy racism of these projects to deny that there are far more Ogden residents speaking spanish living within a mile of the Junction.
I cringe at the statements of the English Officialistas. I learned some rudimentary espanol in school adn wish i had learned more. It's a beautiful language where english is harsh and founded in stern grammatical rules that ignore feeling and regional interpretation. People can understand one another without enforcing language homogenization.
I would have expected the paper to have a lot more pictures showing crowds everywhere and more validation of the projects success by those who championed the project (very short article in fact on the opening).
Also from the dodging of the questions as to crowd size here on the blog (by those that either don't want to say - I told you so or - those that want to show their support because their tax dollars are at risk), I who did not attend, I have to conclude that the turn out was disappoiunting from all's expectation.
I agree with other posters that time will tell rather than just the first blush. That said the curiousity for checking out the activities or lack there of up front is telling.
Curm, my tooth may be growing but, with the age of the baby boomers, wouldn't it make sense to cater to a group with alot more dispossable income? The mayor himself acknowleged that this had a short lifespan,a fad if you will, adding a flat ski-ride to nowhere, still won't add any appeal to this thing.
Unanswered,
It was a decent crowd. I know that's not a number but inside the Salomon Center it was hoppin'. The theater also seemed to have a good turnout. Still it was no more and probably less than were likely at Newgate last night or Layton Hills. The restricted construction zones confined the crowd to just the entrance of the two anchors making it seem larger. Like I said, they will need this kind of crowd all day to earn it's keep. The additional residential and commercial construction should add more life to the area but it is still a ways out. Another year perhaps? It is exciting to see this in downtown. The concern remains that will it stimulate more or will it simply provide some musical chairs like in the case of Wells Fargo. Who will occupy their present building or will we now see another major downtown building sit vacant.
One more thing, the proposed benches at the front runner. Shouldn't comfort be concidered? That paddleboard picture in the paper is way over the top.
As for incorporating some outdoor element to this thing, maybe with the configuration of the Jackass center building, the tall front could be used for bungee jumping, and they could make a place that kids could play extreme marbles somewhere in the plaza. How about full contact hop-scotch. We must be insane, I'm leaning heavily toward Jason, nuts, get um.
Oh, I almost forgot, Tec, that is not a steeple or a spire. It's one half of the giant flipper-crutch (sling-shot) that chris and peewee matt will use to hurl geigers busloads of Japanese toutist to their make believe modified doll house replica in Malan's Basin. The other half will be constructed if and when BDO revenue's exceed projections. As we all know that is the only thing that will pay for this fiasco, except a large TAX INCREASE. Wait, thats RDA dept, Arrington said we won't have to pay if they default. SWEEEEEET.
to bill c.
There are three other options that the mayor is actually currently using to fund his legacy.
One is bonding, which as Dorothy Littrell has pointed out, that we don't know the full extent of because the city doesn't accounts for bonding until some 12 to 18 months after the fact (we do know that it's at least 90 plus million, up some 40 plus million in just one year).
The second is the mayor is selling off parts of the city's property to fund his legacy. There have been several pieces sold in the last couple of years. He's currently got his next sites on the Mt. Ogden Open Space including the golf course.
Thirdly, he has been giving away the city's future tax revenue streams on all of these projects that he thinks will become his legacy. These projects in effect will have flat property tax rates for the next 15 to 20 years on there properties while everyone elses taxes will go up to cover not only the costs of your property but also to cover the cost short falls of these other properties. Since most of these projects are just now starting to come on board, we won't know the effects of their future lost revenues increases for a while. Not until our cost of services within the city start to go up and the city only has a limited source of tax payers to share those cost increases with.
I agree with Bill that the mayor picked the wrong audience to address, so to speak, at least when it comes to the local area which should have been his audience. He didn't do his demographics. He showed his immaturity in being so myopic in his vision and he showed his lack of tenure in his experience as to how business is transacted. Patience in a virtue when your making big decisions. Something that wasn't exercised by our administration in it's business development making decision process and something that we in Odgen will have to live with for a long time.
These three less than conspicuous ways of funding this legacy just validates the fact that had the projects relied on straight up sound financial financing that the finacial community would not have funded them and as such, the determined mayor devised these other methods for funding. Says a whole lot about the risk.
I took Spanish in high school...
Still remember a lot of it. It's a lovely language...but, if I had pursued it or any other language, that would be a SECOND language!
I don't live in a Spanish speaking country. If I did, I would expect to learn the language and conduct business in that language. Assimilate myself in that lifestyle and culture.
I would not be on their welfare rolls, nor would I expect perks because I was a 'foreigner'.
In fact, try going to Mexico to take up residence without a job, try to protest 'inequities', or amke a nuisance of yourself in any way. You'd end up in jail, and if you were lucky, you would be returned to the U.S.
Get a clue. Constantly immersing themselves in Spanish speaking, entertainment, and reading ( if at all), does not help these immigrants become successful here. The children suffer. They are behind in school, and teachers spend an inordinate amount of time with these kids to the detriment of the rest of the class.
Gov "Ahnold" is correct in telling the Hispanics (and any other immigrants) to immerse themelves in ENGLISH books, TV, movies, and other American culture. THAT is the way to put themselves on a surer path to success.
Bleeding heart compassion and libralism is one major reason that our country is overrun with ILLEGALS. Anyone seeking a better life here needs to respect and obey our laws, speak English, seek an education and pay for it themselves, and WORK.
Any other country expects that from anyone entering their country!
Instead of courting this idea that we should cater to those who don't or won't assimilate...do them a big favor out of your big hearts and encourage them to follow Gov. Arnold's advice and example.
Where is the plauqe of the mayor and the city council names on it. Don't they usually put something like that on the buildings to show that they are doing something?
Now I understand that if this project does not make it that the bond underriders usually will then end up with it. So is that why they are backed up with revenue from BDO? and the only way that the bond underwriters would write these bonds. I would sure like to know.
If things do fail, how do we get the mayor's family on the hook for all the money lost. That would only seem just.
Curm and fellow bloggers:
Estimates of crowd size are, as we can see here, fraught with extensive political complications.
Generally, on a morning paper, you see a deadline of about midnight for Really Important News or 9-10 pm for most everything else.
So, I would think there are two good reasons that Mr. Schwebke reported the crowd size based on the organizer's expectation: 1) it wouldn't be politically smart to do otherwise; 2) he had a deadline. Both have been noted above in this space.
For those interested, this article has some neat descriptions of both the political and technical limitations of estimating crowd size.
I love this quote from Alex S. Jones, director of Harvard's Center on the Press, Politics and Public Policy [in reference to a scientific study of crowd size from a political rally]: "The number of people (in a crowd) is a mythical number, and now you're going to turn it into a fact, and that won't be welcomed."
Even though the "crowd" sizes here are much smaller, I think the same philosophy pertains.
To wake up pls:
I read most of what's posted here, and I've re-read everything on Spanish language and immigration posted lately, and you know what? I can't find a single person who posted here on the topic --- liberal [like me], Conservative or what have you, who's suggested immigrants to the US should not learn English or that it doesn't much matter if they do. Not one. Nor, being the good liberal Democrat that I am, can I think offhand of a single liberal Democrat who's said anything like that. Not one. So where you get your idea that "bleeding hearts and liberals" think it's not important for immigrants to learn English escapes me. Care to name a few? A couple? One?
What about the Money:
You wrote: Where is the plauqe of the mayor and the city council names on it. Don't they usually put something like that on the buildings to show that they are doing something?
You know, that's kind of a dicey question on this one. Those plaques usually go up on unquestionably civic and public structures --- bridges, tunnels, schools, courthouses, park pavilions and such like. The Junction is kind of [civicly speaking] an odd duck: it's a commerical property built and owned by the city. Closet thing I can think to it is the old market buildings that were city built and owned in Brooklyn, da land of my yout. Various greengrocers, fish mongers, butchers, and so on, would rent stalls/shops in them from the city, but the market itself was a public building. And they had the plaques.
Maybe the plaque will go up in the plaza area of the competed Junction. That will be public property and kinda sorta like a park, I guess. Interesting question.
Mono:
On Mr. Schwebke's inclusion of crowd estimate: You wrote "that Mr. Schwebke reported the crowd size based on the organizer's expectation" because "it wouldn't be politically smart to do otherwise."
Actually, I thought he handled it nicely. He said I think "as many as" 3K were "expected". Not reported has hard fact, but as the organizers' expectation and the number itself left soft {"as many as"]. Gave a soft estimate and sourced it in just a few words. Deftly done.
Curm,
My daughter lives in Brooklyn. She told me about Park Slope marketplace. One of those municipal marketplaces that have not seen interest in our modern suburban sprawlopoli. It has been restored and thrives again.
About spanish...I hear about many european immigrant families that still spoke native languages. Most of these latin immigrant kids speak english. I would venture that they have at least as much command of the language as average american kid whose command is quite elementary. The spanish speaking parents seem to be getting along quite well. I'd also venture that these immigrants produce a net gain for our society as they are likely far less drain on social services than say the typically poor health underclass american logging millions of dollars in largely preventable healthcare while they continue to swill soda, spam and pop tarts.
Tec:
You wrote: My daughter lives in Brooklyn. She told me about Park Slope marketplace. One of those municipal marketplaces that have not seen interest in our modern suburban sprawlopoli. It has been restored and thrives again.
Ah, thanks. Wonderful news. Someone I met through SGO described Mt. Ogden Park as "where Ogden meets Ogden" --- meaning on any given day on the trails and fields of the park you can run into just about every ethnic group, every financial and social class in the city. Where Ogden meets Ogden. [ I love that phrase.] Well, the old public neighborhood markets I remember from Brooklyn used to work that way as well. A cross section of the neighborhood wandering through the crowded aisles on any given day. The advent of supermarkets pretty much killed them off as I recall. Very glad to hear they're making a comeback. Thanks for the news.
Still no reply from you about the availability of cabrito from a carcinaria in Ogden. No luck, huh?
To: what about the money said...
You asked "If things do fail, how do we get the mayor's family on the hook for all the money lost. That would only seem just."
I agree.
Problem is, if it does go bust our mayor doesn't have a pot to piss in for the residents to go after. If it succeeds the mayor more that likely will leave office with an under the table lucretive deal and will have made a small fotune off of the residents money.
Either way we loose. If it fails we're on the hook for the damage and if it succeeeds most of the upside goes to him and his friends rather than to the residents.
I think he cut a sweet deal for himself and said screw the residents.
No Upside for the Residents:
You ask: You asked "If things do fail, how do we get the mayor's family on the hook for all the money lost. That would only seem just."
The Mayor is not on the hook for the costs of the project, nor [except at the ballot box] should he be. Look, like the project or not, it was proposed by a duly elected mayor, endorsed and approved by a duly elected Council. They acted with the authority the people of Ogden gave them at the polls. And they should not be, any of them, personally financially responsible if the projects fail.
Very few people would ever be willing to hold public office if they made, as it turned out, an unwise decision, and could be held personally financially responsible. Bad bad idea.
We elected them, people. They used the power and authority we gave them. However much you are not pleased with the Junction and the city's involvement in it. They acted with the authority the voters put in their hands. Besides, it would not be legal to attempt to recover the costs of a failed project from them personally. The laws of every state forbid that. And rightly so.
Curm, you have a reply to everything that is written! Or so it seems. Are you saving all these musings for a book?
Curm,
Generally you're right but in this case you're wrong on accountability with this administration. Public officials should be held accountable for what they do especially when they dole out so many special benefits to their friends. Also when they work their deals out of the view of the public and only present the upside without identifying the downside as this administration has done. Please don't try to deny these last two points with this administration. Also this administration has threatened those that oppose his vision, spent money without proper authorization and then begged for forgiveness from the city council. If after all is said and done, he leaves office to join forces with one of his friends that he has enriched then yes I think we should go after him for is failures.
I also disagree with you in your suggestion that this administration did much in the way of demographics. I think (and my options are as valid as your generalizations) that he simple was guided by the options of those that he wanted to help and that he felt would help him when he leaves office.
And finally, I too tire of your constant effort to moderate the options and perspective of other on this blog. Unless you have more insite than what you indicate, then I see no reason for you to marginalize comments or opinions of other nor do I find that your comments are any more credible.
Tired:
No. Just a little under the weather today and webcrawling at WCF is a way to pass the time. And, well, questions of governance and how democracy works [and doesn't] in the US is kind of what I'm obligated to think about for my job. [Am. Hist. Prof.] Sometimes, questions, issues that come up here, arguments etc. get put to my classes later on as ways to get them to think about how government works. Or doesn't. Or should. Discussions about The Founding Fathers and the Constitutional Convention, etc. are a little abstract for them. But bringing the issues down to earth by framing them as questions now being discussed right here in Junction City seems to engage them more and make what is for them abstract concrete. And, apparently, interesting. So posting here here is kind of a busman's holiday for me.
Give you an example. I can run them through the Civil War amendments, which defined citizenship in the US, but put it in terms of the current debate over immigration, and the Const. provision that anyone born within the borders of the US, even to illegal immigrants, is instantly an American citizen, and the discussion takes off and they start thinking about citizenship and what it means and should mean [or shouldn't] in ways they hadn't before.
There now. Aren't you sorry you asked? [grin]
Choose to disagree:
The city hired Boyer to ramrod the Junction project, and you can bet your booties Boyer did market analyses, etc. In fact, it recommended against adding two floors to the Junction office building [that the Mayor wanted added] based on its market studies. The Council opted to side with consultants and their market analysis, and not with the Mayor. In fact, the first consultants the city hired quit the project because its market analysis suggested the Junction would not succeed as the Mayor and Council wanted it configured.
If you're talking about the administration, or council breaking the laws [accepting bribes, etc], and being held accountable, you and I do not disagree at all. But no Council member or Mayor should be held personally financially responsible for making policy decisions that do not in the end prove to have been wise ones. I cannot think of a city administration in any city I've lived in that was 100% on the money in its development programs, etc. The punishment for making decisions the voters consider unwise comes at the ballot box. Ask the incumbents on the Council who lost their bids for re-election last time how that works.
Finally, you wrote: And finally, I too tire of your constant effort to moderate the options and perspective of other on this blog. Unless you have more insite than what you indicate, then I see no reason for you to marginalize comments or opinions of other nor do I find that your comments are any more credible.
Hell, Choose to, people disagree. If they didn't, this blog, all blogs, would be damn dull places to visit. If someone posts an opinion I think can't be sustained on the evidence, or is excessively hostile, I'll say so. Nobody says the person I disagreed with has to concur, and he or she is free to fire back. Your post for example takes issue with me. I don't consider you're trying to "marginalize" my views [whatever that means]. It just means you disagree and said so. Fair enough. And when I disagree with someone here --- anyone --- then of course I think I've got a better take on the matter, more or better information or [as you put it] "more insight." If I didn't think so, I wouldn't disagree with them.
You're free, as is anyone on any blog, to weigh in with your own opinion, as you did. Or to ignore posts you don't think worth the time to read, much less reply to. Lord knows, I do.
Curm:
I didn't mean to imply that I thought Mr. Schwebke did anything wrong. On the contrary. I agree that it was deftly handled.
I was just pointing out that such numbers are subject to manipulation by all sorts of people to achieve their own personal objectives. Like you, I thought the way it was stated did a nice job of reporting without embracing the figure given to him as Gospel truth.
Curm,
Cabrito, Roast kid goat. Interesting. I'll bet the Carniceria on 31st/Porter has the goat. I got some huesos grandes for Fido there. The guys sawed them for me on the spot. I'm vegetarian so the goat would be novelty for me. I go "sin carne" mostly for avoiding factory farming of fellow beings. I can handle the kill and cleaning. The wholesale adoption of a meat-centric diet has been accomodated by this style of farming. I'll do my part to discourage it.
I had a wonderful visit to your City, and yes, I was there, and true to my word, wore the yellow shirt, the scarf, and the Bizazz hat. I was extremely disappointed that I didn't meet any of you gentle folk so I could put a face to the pseudonym, and more than that, to compliment you on the changes I have seen in your City since my first visit two years ago.
You all should be proud. The crowds were young, and enthusiastic; the rides were unique and exciting, and I will pay if Sharon will try out the IFLY flying machine just once.
In answer to some of the blither that has been written. I paid my own way, I'm straight, and sticks and stones can hurt my bones, but ... well you know the rest.
Keep the faith ... it's all within reach!!!
Producer....you're on! I'll try out the 'flying machine'. Just get hold of Rudi and MAYBE he will act as our go-between?
Will you also try the iFly with me?Why are you asking me to try the ride?
We're all relieved (I'm sure) to know that you are straight and that you've had a good time in our town. Also, hope you don't have any 'broken bones from the sticks and stones'.
Producer,
I would liked to have met you. Unfortunately $30 to get limited access to all the stuff was not incentive enough. If you had hung out in the front I would have seen you. I was out there while the mayor was being interviewed about 7ish.
This is one of the first of your postings that did not accuse one of us of keeping our city in the dark ages.
You may be Ogden material after all. This is a working class town with a few working class clowns. Why don't you get the hell out of LALA and join the fun in the OGD.
Please, the next time you visit, get ahold of Rudi. We can all go for java. I am sure you find this crowd to be full of the kind of humor and spirit you seem to exhibit. Surely the mayor and his stuffy circle leave a real man wanting for hearty laughs and crude inferences.
Later, Rupe.
We're here and you're not.
Just rode past the Logan OUT DOOR fun center last night, south of town. They have all kinds of thrilling(?) enticements. Go cart track,freefall aperatus, ect. About 20 to 30 cars in the parking lot. This I'm sure is a private venture, I'm not sure but it might be related to the S&S rollercoaster out fit. There some speculation that little matty's original bs gondola figure of 20 million came from a phone call to those guys. That would explain the number being only 1/4 or 1/3 of real estimates.
Opened the paper this morning to a full section advertizement for the Jackass Center. Second big add expenditure in a couple of weeks. We know the fist one came from the mayors office, did this one also? Nice big picture of alot of the taxpayer purchased free weights treadmills and other brand new, get off your ass and move gimmicks. With the inventory of equipment, new facility and monthly subsidy check,(city employee memberships) no wonder the chubby guy from Golds is one of the mayor's most ardent supporters.
The bowling photo made me think of the old saying, you can put lipstick on a pig,but it's still a pig. Bowlers don't care about glitzy wall paper and odd colored balls, theyed rather see a Brunswick logo or some other things that make the place feel like a bowling alley. I truely can't picture die hard league bowlers, the real market, leaving the comfortable bowling enviorments like Hilltop or Ben Lomand lanes for this. And don't forget, the younger collage students can bowl on campus for alot less money. Boondogle.
Oh, I failed to mention, for about $125.00 You can go to the Ogden Airport, get full instruction and really jump out of a plane. The real thing is actually cheaper and the view far superior.
Rave on,John Donne.
The police presence at Friday night's affair was severe overkill. Not that they were threatening, more like, "don't these guys have more important things to do."
I know that the mayor wanted to get the security message out to Ogden's few unsavory. I did not see a single individual or group that even looked the slightest bit rowdy. There would be nothing at the Junction for the lowlifes. No lawn or trees to sleep under, no sleazy bars or liquor stores nearby, no stores to shoplift, nowhere to even spend panhandlings.
Architecturally the Salomon Center is a hodgepodge. The prominent glass frontispiece is grand and offered me dramatic photos with a stunning sunset lit reflection of Mt. Ogden. The actual entrance is odd, looking unfinished and sort of squeezed in between the glass sector and the massive featureless stucco block housing the iFlyer. The crown like mouldings in the entrance stucco end abruptly at the glass giving an appearance of last minute finishing or lack of money to design a transitional. It really looks like the glass part was the afterthought. Standing back a couple of hundred feet you can see that the moulding and color theme is carried through to the other side of the glass but still looks rather discontinuous. Up close the entrance looks just plain crappy. I'll post a review of the interior as soon as I get a chance to tour. Maybe this afternoon if it's open. Do they have regular hours now?
Are there other cities who have attracted other Hollywood b-list representatives to take such a huge interest in a mall opening. Will Danny Bonaduce show up in Pocatello to open a go-kart track?
Well of course there is a four page full color supplement for the Junction in today's SE. The managers of the Junction would be blockheads if they didn't promote the hell out of it, especially in its opening weeks. That's what I'd do if I was running the joint.
One thing in the supplement caught my eye: the wind tunnel pricing. After you've taken your training ride [$50 for two minutes plus training], the pricing changes to $15 a minute but with a minimum buy of 5 minutes. That makes the minimum fare for a ride on the thing $75. That's a major chunk of change in my part of town. I hope the market analysis Boyer did on the wind tunnel was sound.
Obviously, budget kept them from extending, the nice-enough faux-brick facade surrounding the doorways around the entire building. It is so odd the way Costa Vida and the Pizza place are way around the sides on opposite sides of the center. This is the strangest commercial layout I have ever seen. What about families with small children, when a couple of them wants pizza and the others want burritos. They have to split up. Did the designers flunk FoodCourt101. I'm sure they were trying to spread out the sidewalk dining scene to keep all corners lively. Usually these places can share a common patio. This place seems to have been designed not knowing if it's supposed to be pedestrian or trying to recreate a street. If it's a street there are far too few retail bays. If it's a pedestrian plaza why even have wasted so much space on automobile access and parking. It only detracts from the pedestrian friendly possibilities. I have mentioned a skatepark. All the concrete and space devoted to roadway and parking spaces could have been devoted to that and more. I hate to seem glib but it ain't that cool. Maybe when it's all finished it'll have some soul. I'll still go for the flowrider now and then but I have never been a big fan of swimming pools over live water. Recreating in a glass enclosed artificial high-amperage pumped 40.00/hr water ride at a downtown mall. Never been my thing.
Curm,
That pricing is stratospheric. This thing really is for tourists. That is what Godfrey wanted. Build something for people who don't live here and sell off the things that the locals really enjoy. Locals will try it now and then but we have come here for the outdoor activities and to just enjoy being here. Most of us have lawns to mow and spend the summer saving up for our Snowbasin passes.
Noticed zoning changes on this weeks agenda, Gadi's property, rumor has it Uncle Gregery Peckery, may have quite a conflict of interest, other than his familiar ties to Pee-Wee. Anyone have more on this?
The Salomon Center has bowling and Salomon does not make bowling balls...
it has flowriding and they do not make surfboards...
it has skydiving and they do not make parachutes ...
it has indoor climbing and they do not make rope, bolts or harnesses...
they do sell shoes and sportswear made in asia that you can wear when going to participate in these activities. I like their snowboard gear.
Bill, I didn't know you were a Frank Zappa fan.
The nocturnal gregarious
Wild swine
A peccary
Is a little pig
With a white collar
That usually hangs around
Between Texas and Paraguay
Sometimes ranging as far
west as Catalina
Gregory Peccary Lyrics
One last comment, some of you have refered to demografic and market research when discussing the Jackass Center and Junction development. Again I need to remind you, the only research done on this was, what prompted Boyer to bow out. It concluded the rec center would be a loser, far too risky,(even for Boyer's Free 50% of BDO money). THis whole fiasco is part of a vision, metaphysical forces that can't and should not be explained. When visions and great visionaries are involved, there is no need to research or study. Just like the GONDOLA BS, there are no studies, Larry Miller is an emotional kind of guy, he probably had a heart to heart with Pee-Wee and swallowed it hook line and sinker.And I'm sure he received the usual rewards given to those doing business with this administration, tax increments etc.
Exactly Bill,
This thing was all charity for poor old Ogden that Godfrey so successfully marketed for his own legacy. He'll heve it for certain if it stumbles. I am sure he is hoping that having Salomon and Larry Miller backing it up with their good name and hard cash. Of course Salomon doesn't have a dime invested but will they want their name on a rec center that fails. I think not. That is the mayor's insurance. If Salomon was in on this from the beginning it would be very different. Mike Dowse got drawn into it all simply because they got the incentive to move here and they were hooked. Godfrey is sharp, I'll give him that.
Tec, I had a fear of my real age coming to light when Curm, called me long in the tooth, now that I may be exposed, Know the lyrics by heart, almost his whole body of work, which is quite extensive. May explain some of my cynicism, sarcasm and irreverence toward those that believe they're in authority. Just because they say it, don't make it so.
Hungry Freaks Daddy
Tec, more geographically appropriate, Dumb all over, a little ugly on the side.
Curm,
I am confused, you made the comment "I hope the market analysis Boyer did on the wind tunnel was sound." This comment was back to back to your earlier comment "The city hired Boyer to ramrod the Junction project, and you can bet your booties Boyer did market analyses, etc."
So which is it?
I personally would love to see the contract that Boyer has with the city. I could be wrong but I suspect that the Boyer contract (if it's like things they've done with the city in the past) is only responsible for getting people in the door and collects a fee for that service (a revolving door could mean added revenues for Boyer) and Boyer possibly collects an additional ongoing fee for maintenance of the facility.
I envisioned that our mayor presented his theme to Boyer and they said they could provide specific services for a fee based on specific terms. I would be surprised if they have any skin in the game if a business located at the Junction survives or not. They fulfilled the mayor’s vision and for that, they got the contract. It is with that reasoning that I don't think they put much effort on the demographics of this development. Why let demographics get in the way of a vision, (once someone has made a decision to buy something, draft up the contract, don’t keep trying to sell it). I suspect that somewhere there is a study very similar to the one that just surfaced relative to the whole gondola/golf course/malan basin study that was commissioned by the city to support the Junction project (and it is probably just about as detailed and comprehensive) and that was what was used to justify the project. Here again I could be wrong but I be willing to bet a beer on it.
Tec,
If the Salomon Center goes south, I'm sure it would be cheaper on the company to just have their name removed as opposed to thinking somehow they need to make this pig with lipstick viable.
Well, well, who paid for those full page ads. No diclaimer other than paid advertisement. So will the se tell us who paid for it. Are they ever going to find out just who is envision ogden is? Maybe rudi someone will ask the mayor these questions.
Choose To:
First comment was I thought for sure they did one. Second was that I hoped it was a sound one. Not mutually exclusive statements. Some studies are well designed and develop sound projections. Others are designed to produce the results the client wishes them to produce. I hope the ones done on the high adventure center elements of The Junction were good ones. I really hope Boyer, or if not Boyer, someone else, did their homework on this and did it well. Knowing that the city's first choice as a mall development and management firm pulled out has me a little nervous.
And I would very much like the Junction to succeed. I suspect some would be happy to see it go under for the joy of crowing "we told you so!" If so, I am not among them. Best for Ogden would be for the project to work and work well. Fingers crossed.
To Curm,
My concern and conclusion is that the administration had a study put together that was designed to produce the results that the administration wanted them to produce. Can I without a doubt prove it no but you can't disprove it either and the only one (the administration) that can answer the question isn't saying. I simply am saying that the facts support my conclusions.
Too many things are inconsistent; the layout of the building as it relates to how it's being used, as Tec has already pointed out a few; the divergent audience that facility is trying to attract, i.e. bumper car users and video game arcade users vs. rock climbers and wave rides and the plethora of similar and competing fast food joints (Theater vs. Salomon Center) just to name a few.
There is no overall theme even though it's called a high adventure facility. That is unless you include bowling, stationary exercise bikes and indoor miniature golf as high adventure. This will not hold the attention for long of the high end shopper or extreme sports participant nor will it hold the attention of the more frugal shopper or video gamers. After the specific activity that they went there to participate in is over where is the same consistent draw for that type of person? It's just a hodge podge of non related businesses surrounded by a lot of concrete.
Terrible job when it comes to green by the way and inconsistent with the city promotions as being located close to nature.
I also don't see where the yet to come developments to the Junction are going to increase the synergies either. High end condo dwellers don't want fast food, they want coffee shops, high end restaurants (and more than one or two), high end shopping and adult evening activities, none of which are incorporated in this project. The office building occupants may lend support to the gym (during lunch or just before or after work) or to fast food restaurants but that's not going to add much of a contribution.
I see very little to convince me that much work was done on demographics, building design layout as it relates to other parts of the development or that much effort was actually executed to accomplish the overall theme when it came to getting tenants. I would not be surprised if these same comments hold true when it comes to the effort made to look at the true financial viability and contribution that this project will have for the city.
I hope that crossing your fingers works but I'm afraid that the truth is what you don't want to talk about.
The flowrider itself looks to be a very limited experience. I want to try it just to conquer it and learn to carve it like I saw one guy doing.
After that there is little to do. Some of the other flowriders have an actual breaking wave that you can either ride the tube or ollie off the lip. Ours will only allow a straight ahead ride. Fun enough for a group for an hour.
I have my fingers crossed but they're getting cramped.
Bill C.,
Frank Zappa fans can appreciate goofiness of it all. Those who are lacking in the Zappa-ology should invest a few weeks or years listening to his extensive discography to enlighten themselves to his unique social commentary. Of course his music is laced with some of the most challenging rock, fusion, jazz, classical, prog, country, and vocal harmony arrangements to boot. He was and continues to be sorely overlooked.
Just Another Band From L.A. is one of my favorites after Freak Out. Tough call though. I too, Bill, can quote much of Frank.
Billy the Mountain
A regular, picturesque, postcardy mountain
Residing between lovely Rosamond and Gorman.
With his stunning wife Ethyl, a tree. A tree.
I could go on....
Curm, are you hip to this Zappa guy? Seems you should if you are not already. I can provide necessary study material.
"More Trouble Every Day"
So pertinent today as in 1964 when released.
Long live the spirit of FZ
Thanks, althepal,
That poster was popular in the early 70's during my college days. It said across the bottom "Phi Zappa Krappa" For some reason that picture you linked had it cropped.
"Look here brother, Who you jiving with that Cosmic Debris"
Listening to it right now..
I might be movin' to Montana soon
Just to raise me up a crop of dental floss
Raisin' it up
Waxin' it down
In a little white box
That I can sell uptown
Wow, I am impressed with the FZ awareness 'round here. Another gem from Monotreme.
This may bring back some memories:
One of the more colorful rock legends maintains that Zappa and Alice Cooper had a gross-out contest onstage: After Cooper allegedly squashed some live baby chicks, Zappa supposedly picked up a plastic spoon and ate a plate of steaming feces. Although Zappa denies it, he's been haunted by the story for years.
PLAYBOY: You certainly offended people with the Phi Zappa Krappa poster.
ZAPPA: Probably. But so what?
PLAYBOY: And some of your antics from the Mothers of Invention days, like the famed gross-out contest.
ZAPPA: There never was a gross-out contest. That was a rumor. Somebody's imagination ran wild. Chemically bonded imagination. The rumor was that I went so far as to eat shit onstage. There were people who were terribly disappointed that I never ate shit onstage. But no, there never was anything resembling a gross-out contest.
PLAYBOY: Another rumor was that you peed on an audience.
ZAPPA: I never had my dick out onstage and neither did anybody else in the band. We did have a stuffed giraffe rigged with a hose and an industrial-strength whipped cream dispenser. Under it we had a cherry bomb. That's how we celebrated the Fourth of July in 1967. Somebody waved the flag, lit the cherry bomb. It blew the ass out of the giraffe. Another guy reached behind the giraffe and pushed the button and had this thing shitting whipped cream all over the stage. That amused people for some reason.
PLAYBOY: So it was simply contained outrageousness?
ZAPPA: Stagecraft.
PLAYBOY: To entertain or just to alleviate boredom?
ZAPPA: There was a third factor, too. There's an art statement in whipped cream shooting out the ass of a giraffe, isn't there? We were carrying on the forgotten tradition of dada stagecraft. The more absurd, the better I liked it.
Zappa was in Utah twice I believe, once in the mid sixties, which I did not attend, and then in thelate 70s or early 80s at the Terrace Ballroom. Awesome show.
Musically a genius, his social commentary woven in, to me also genius. Humor is a great tool that can liberate a locked up, washed out brain, force one to examine things your fist inclination may dismiss. You guys might recall Frank championed one of the first efforts to get youngsters to vote.(much to the disaproval of political officinados of the time).He testified before Congress,exposing many of them to be the empty fools they are. He died too soon,and never has recieved the recognition he deserved. I could share many other great attributes of his and positions, but I wouldn't want to offend any brain-locked brain washed potential allies at this time, on this forum. Suffice it to say Lift-Ogden and all these Godfrey Kool-aid drinkers must be " PLASTIC PEOPLE ".
I saw Frank twice in Phoenix at the Celebrity Theater that was state of the art for the era. Had a rotating stage and no seat further than about 50' from the stage. Frank was bothered by the rotating so they just moved it between songs which wasn't easy as you know at an FZ show there was little down time. Saw Miles Davis at the same venue. I'll never forget those shows.
Godfrey is running!!!!
why don't you clowns go to the Kokomo and have a few and bulls--- each otherr?
Reading an entire thread of your crap to each other is boring!
Rudi, don't you ever set limits to this nonsense or are you out of town today??
Tec:
I can remember the birth of Moon Unit Zappa. And I have a small fond soft spot for "Weasels Ripped My Flesh." Ah, the classics....
Shut er down,
Uh...your moniker just may be too prophetic in the context of today's thread.... LMAO
Great reviews by Oz and not pessimistic.
I thought I may be a little negative in trying to be realistic. Thank you guys for some more sobering realism. As my visit soaks in over a couple of days this thing becomes ever so anticlimactic.
The sculpture also bothered me. One of the reasons for the huge frontal glass was to give a mountain view so as to give you a high adventure kind of feeling while spending cold cash for amusement rides. The sculpture now obscures some of the mountain view from inside. Usually you invest in this much glass to either give a great view from the inside or allow easy viewing from the outside. In this case it does neither. Climbers will not be gazing out the windows and the glare from the daylight on the tinted glass prevents viewing from the outside. The sculpture is pretty odd. It's as though rock climbing is the primary outdoor sport in this area. There are no doubt many avid climbers and many challenging ascents. We are no Yosemite.
The quote on the back(front)side also is puzzling.
"The mountains are the means, the man is the end. The idea is to improve the man, not to reach the top." Walter Bonatti
Nice thought but hardly lyrical. Kind of choppy by standards of popular quotes. Does not really roll off the tongue and kind of leaves you thinking about the setup and punchline. What does it mean?
The sculpture...I'm with Oz this thing should have been in the center of the whole shabang.
The tiered scape of the "plaza" is employed these days to discourage skateboarders as are the ugly ass tailbone shattering concrete block "benches" out front. I guess true high-adventure big-thrill real-risk sports like skateboarding are not welcome here...because you cannot charge for it. Kids ride skateboards because it is free and extremely challenging. Far more challenging than ANY of these goofy attractions and did I mention FREE.
A skateboard park covering an acre would have cost HALF what the flowrider cost in it's 2000sq' "one-day to be retail" on-street bay. I realized why it is located where it is. They have little faith in it's outcome so it would make an easy transition to a street side ice rock creamery, or crack rock icery.
I'm finally going inside today. The previous two insider reviews confirmed my fears and my assessment of the outside layout. It makes no sense, it's a hodgepodge trying to do too many things and none too well.
I'll post my inside review later.
Curm,
The cover art of "Weasels" is at least as famous as the music. Every song a classic. I think I'll give it a spin right now.
"Directly from My Heart to You"
"Toads of the Short Forest"
"My Guitar Wants to Kill Your Mama"
"Oh No"
I could sing "Oh No" all day.
Instrumentally, along with the incredible pre-digital cut-and-paste sound editing some of FZ's most unique work. Frank literaaly pioneered sampling before samplers. He had to take physical Scotch recording tape and cut it and splice it over and over to get the results. It is masterful. He was one of the first to buy a Synclavier, in the day it cost a quarter mil and had less functionality than my laptop running Cubase or proTools. Frank made it sing.
"Climbing is not a battle with the elements, nor against the law of gravity. It's a battle against oneself." — Walter Bonatti.
Maybe Matt Godfrey should have a little taste of this man's humility
"The mountains are the means, the man is the end. The idea is to improve the man, not reach the top of the mountains. Climbing only makes sense if you consider the man."
-Walter Bonatti, On the Heights
This is the complete quote. They must have run out of cash for the sculpture so edit prevailed
More Walter Bonatti, from pretentious mountaineering quotes:
"If in normal conditions it is skill, which counts, in such extreme situations, it is the spirit, which saves."
"The mountains have rules. they are harsh rules, but they are there, and if you keep to them you are safe. A mountain is not like men. A mountain is sincere. The weapons to conquer it exist inside you, inside your soul."
And others I like:
"Today is your day ! Your mountain is waiting. So... get on your way."
- Dr. Suess
"To live for some future goal is shallow. It is the sides of the mountain which sustain life, not the top." — Robert Pirsig.
"Pain is only weakness leaving the body." — Tom Muccia.
"Consider what you want to do in relation to what you are capable of doing. Climbing is, above all, a matter of integrity." — Gaston Rébuffat (1921—1985)
And finally before I get out to some real work-a-day stuff...
for Gondola Matt Godfrey
"Thousands of tired, nerve-shaken, over-civilized people are beginning to find out that going to the mountains is going home: that wildness is a necessity; that mountain parks and reservations are useful not only as fountains of timber and irrigating rivers, but as fountains of life."
– John Muir
It's too bad that the 'sculpture' is supposed to denote mountain climbing as our 'real' activity in Ogden.
What bunk....isn't this the ski capital of the West? Won't Malan's be a skiier's paradise?
I'm surprised Godfrey didn't dangle a cable car outside over the hemorroid inducing benches.
The quote is so stuffy and meaningless.
Soem months ago, "humor" was suggested as the theme for the plaza...as one sees in Henderson, NV and other cities that don't take themselves so seriously.
A couple benches with a shopping bag laden mom and a a toddler...a tired woman resting her feet, a couple enjoying an ice cream cone, etc..would have been charming.
Godfrey has no sense of humor nor creativity.
I hope the rec center isn't a wreck center...but Tec's obsevations so far don't ally my concerns.
That huge glass front just screams 'bad taste' passing for style and elegance.
Nope, doen't sound like a place that invites families. Does sound as if it appeals to a few affluent (at least for one spree) yuppies...and a few more who give in to the begging of their kids!
Tsk Tsk...no class.
Just read the excellent 'on the scene' reports filed by Ozboy and Not....
One is not filled with great white hope about the mall after reading your first hand reporting.
It sounds like the Junction tried too hard to be too many things in too short a time.
Godfrey's MO is always "first in the nation"....we've reminded him on numerous occasions that there is probably a good reason that no other city in the country has a mall anchored by a bowling alley and a gym/climbing wall. Duh.
Let us not forget Godfey's remark that anything is obsolete after 20 years. We won't even have this carny attraction paid off in twenty years!
Remember Matt, when you envision and build it right, it won't be obsolete in 20 years...have you seen the Washington Monument lately?
What will bring spenders into the mall are STORES! Not office space up the wazoo...condos for folks to stare at?, a pizza joint...but stores that offer wares.
If Matt is so sure that thousands (down from Geiger's milions) will flock to this mall....then how successful would a high end discount outlet mall have been? Not taking up the entire mall...but a half block or so. With a billboard touting it and the exit to take, I think we'd have seen a booming success. Those who are north of us wouldn't have to drive to Park City, and the Fronrunner would've brot up folks from the south.
But, I'm sure the CC candidate, Ms Burdett, who lost, was right when she'd sneer.."NO one will shop at a mall thtat isn't next to a freeway!" Guess it would be a waste of money to utilize billboards?
(sigh) here we go again...bobby, curt?
Your invective is so recognizable. And, how'd that "anonymous" slip by Rudi?
Give it up...you need to get back to selling ski clothes, 'cause it will be a cold day in Ogden before.....you get the idea?
BTW..."One man" wants and craves the honors for that vision of his...so why not let "One Man" hear the truth? Oh, that's right, he's the emporer...don't tell him he's still showing us a few more small parts of himself.
It's just amazing how far you naysayers go to spin something negative out of a positive. Oh yeah you have hundreds of pseudo-intellectual points you try to use to legitimize your naysaying.
You just have absolutely no sense of what it takes to actually make something difficult happen. Try, adjust, modify, make it work. With you, it's instant skepticism, pick it apart, blame one man, then congratulate each other on being right before any evidence is in. Nice.
Sure glad Edison didn't try to make the lightbulb work in Ogden- there would be SmartGrowthEdison, constant 'It will never work' forums, blah blah blah.
You accomplish nothing. You've not solved any problem in Ogden. Instead of whining constantly, why don't you actually do the work to make your so 'strongly principled' ideals actually happen?
(Originally Posted by Anonymous to Weber County Forum at June 18, 2007 10:29 AM.
Graciously reposted by your blogmeister with a suitable screen name, in the hope that this gentle reader will carefully read our "posting Policy" before making another comment.)
Not too dumb, just don't like how the Webmaster runs WebTracker and wants to force registration so that he can pull addresses. I'm not Curt or Bob, but I know that 99% of this site is folks of one mindset constantly congratulating each other on the same opinion so it might seem weird to you that someone's on that disagrees with you. But guess what? When all the cheaters were removed from both the Raptors and SE polls, they showed that the town was NOT of your opinion. You folks are the minority even though you're totally convinced otherwise.
Sharon:
You wrote: Nope, doen't sound like a place that invites families. Does sound as if it appeals to a few affluent (at least for one spree) yuppies...and a few more who give in to the begging of their kids!
I suspect when the weather goes bad in the long winter months, those indoor activities like bumper cars, miniature golf and arcade games will be more popular than you think as a way for families to get out for a bit and kids to burn off being housebound. But we shall see.
Too Dumb:
You wrote: Sure glad Edison didn't try to make the lightbulb work in Ogden- there would be SmartGrowthEdison, constant 'It will never work' forums, blah blah blah.
So far as I know, SGO has never taken a stand on any invention by anybody, one way or the other. And I believe Mr. Edison developed his light bulb and electric company with private capital... it became the Consolidated Edison company.
Argue against SGO if you like, WCF is a public forum, but try to keep your argument at least within shouting distance of the realm of reason.
When you retreat to nonsense like "SGO would have opposed the light bulb, " pretty much what you're doing is advertising the fact that you have no argument to make based on reason and evidence, logic and example.
Light bulbs? You can do better than that, surely....
Curm,
What have those families been doing before the opening of the Junction?
Putting the kids in mittens, boots, caps and snowsuits to play outside? Building 'forts' and snowmen?
Treking around Mount Ogden Park and other places?
Having snowball 'fights"?
Egads, Curm. What have families been doing? Kids come in, shed the outer gear, have hot cocoa, play a game, watch a movie, READ, bake cookies, clean their rooms.
Do we need carny amusements just cuz it's cold outside?
Going to the movies once in awhile is usually a treat as long as fmilies can afford it.
Did you just Compare Edison and the light bulb to Mayor Godfrey and the Junction? What is so wrong about nitpicking and questioning projects that are heavily subsidized by our public dollars? In my relatively short lifetime I have witnessed a block of historic buildings razed and cleared and a new mall built on the site, and I have seen that mall demolished, cleared, and razed for a new modern day mall. I’m basically sick of the shortsightedness being displayed by cities, Ogden isn’t the only city doing this stuff, but it’s the City I live in and plan to live in for a long time. So I will question my public dollars at work. I don’t want to see this mall site “redeveloped” in another 20 years. Urban renewal has a very sketchy history in American cities and we should all be wary of it. I don’t want to have to absorb the potential fall of the new mall as a citizen. I hope that the Junction does well and I plan to consume and spend $ (as any good American citizen would) there w/ my family. Doesn’t mean I’m going to gloss things over. Doesn’t mean there weren’t and aren’t lingering issues that should be addressed.
Boy am I glad that I could climb a wall in downtown ogden. It was ONLY $10.00 for the whole day! up and down and up and down. I did this about 60 times in the day I had and I was so refreshing. I didn't have the bugs to eat me and the other things to get in the way. This is so way cool. you guys sould just try it. up and down, all day. I feel like a new person. up and down all day. so coooool.
Most of the buildings at the Junction will have long term viability being either condos or offices. The retail has a sketchy history in these kinds of developments even in the most affluent of cities. This place IS NOT pedestrian friendly. Why they wanted automobile access from Washington to a narrow entry is absurd. Even a typical movie night at 7pm will generate a minor jam. And the bass thumpers, I like my bass, too, but it will be such an annoyance in this setting and who will police it.
The Salomon Center, though, is a single use monstrosity, that if it doesn't fly will likely be entirely dismantled. Savvy developers design in flexibility of use to these places as long term insurance to keep it leased. The Salomon Center was forced through by a vision and must fly. The only alternative use for it would be a theater or museum and there is already one of each next door.
Tec-
Good points. I was referring primarily to the retail aspects. I hope the other buildings have a long term viability and not become stagnant/vacant. You never know in Ogden. For example, the building you referred to the other day on the east bench shouldn't remain vacant, but apparently it is. As to the pedestrian aspect of the site, I don't know, I haven't attempted to walk it yet. But it seems to me like the first thing, or one of the first things, they should've done is make it WALKABLE! Maybe it will be more so once the rest of the block is developed. But it seems that a lot of urban design today forgets what makes places attractive to people. Hopefully this block will be walkable and that there will be a degree of connectivity to the rest of downtown as well.
Headed to Costa Vida for lunch (hope it is open)...gotta support the dream!
Actually though, even though many are complaining about something they haven't gone to, I will say this...after actually visiting the site Friday, I too wondered about the traffic, hopefully will be blocked eventually... Loved the theater. Wondered about the bowling alley and game environment, but this is Mormon country and I have a feeling there will be plenty of date nights there.
Layout of the S. Center seemed chopped up, but I ran through pretty quickly. Golds Gym is very nice and doesn't look to be done by someone looking to leave anytime soon.
I too thought the flow rider could have been laid out in a more appealing manner.
As with all things, time will tell.
Oh yeah, light bulbs are the curse of society.
I really hate to side in any way with "Dumber than a Bag of Hammers" or "To Dumb" but I'm afraid they have one point: the place has been open for a grand total so far of 5 days. Five, count 'em, five. Give it a chance, people. It will succeed or it won't, but at this point I wouldn't put a whole lot more weight on confident predictions of its failing that I would on confident predictions of its success. It just opened. A lot will depend on how it is managed, and on whether the design turns out to be people friendly or not. But we certainly cannot know that after five days of operation, either way.
I can certainly see how someone would not look upon paying 10 bucks to climb an artificial climbing wall as a fun thing to do. But I also know that climbing walls have been successful elsewhere. Not everybody has the same tastes, preferences, likes and dislikes by way of recreation. Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks. I can see how weather-bound families in winter might look upon a day at the Junction with a variety of [relatively] inexpensive action for the kids --- bumper cars, bowling, arcades --- as a godsend. [And no, Sharon, it doesn't mean those children are not going out to play in the cold. But we haven't had a whole lot of snow to play in lately down at the city level. And even if we did, even playing in the snow and cold gets old after a while, and a day doing something different in a different place can be very appealing. We'll just have to see how many might think that way, and whether the pricing is right to keep them coming back. Way too early to say.]
But all this criticism and these predictions of failure after five days of operation seem more than a little premature to me.
Curm
Want to put a hundred bucks on Fat Cats and Golds not making their full $56 grand per month rent payments for six months without some funny rent forgiveness from city hall?
In the real world their rent on the Solomen Center would be in the neighborhood of $200,000 per month. That is the pretty universal lease payment on real property of one percent of the value of the rented property as the monthly rent. The tax payers are into the building $21 million dollars plus, so you do the arithmetic. Bottom line these guys are getting a $1,800,000 per year subsidy from the citizens of Ogden. That spelled out is One Million, Eight Hundred Thousand Dollars per year gift from our wallets to theirs. And yes, I am guessing that they won't even be able to pay that to the city for their rent.
Pessimist? Realist? Just plain nuts?
Commercial space is leased by sq. ft., location, etc. not building value.
On big city-subsidized redevelopment plans mixing housing and recreation, take a look at this story in today's NY Times.
From the story:
The city has been working with local residents and property owners for nearly three years on a master plan for what everyone agrees is a dowdy area. The idea, they say, is to preserve the democratic, open-air quality of Coney Island’s culture and amusement district on the south side of Surf Avenue, while allowing for high-rise residential and retail development set apart from the rides, on the north side of Surf.
The Economic Development Corporation, along with the City Planning Department and the Coney Island Development Corporation, have been devising a rezoning proposal for Coney Island that will go through a public review process later this year.
“The community and the Coney Island Development Corporation have all indicated that residential and amusements don’t go together,” said Chuck Reichenthal, district manager of Community Board 13.
But Mr. Sitt says he believes the changes being proposed are too restrictive and would undercut his ability to redevelop the area....
Mr. Sitt, who is equal parts real estate entrepreneur and supersalesman, has been engaged in a game of chicken with the city over the future of Coney Island. Earlier this year, his team claimed that his project “isn’t a financially feasible investment” without high-rise housing. Over the winter, he knocked down the batting cages and the go-kart park in a move that harked back to the bad old days of empty lots....
He's looking for a subsidy from the city. North of $100 million....
The hotels, Mr. Sitt said, would offer black residents not only jobs, but careers. The Russian immigrants, who enjoy a “quality of life and activity by the water,” would flock to the hotels and nightclubs. Jewish and Italian-American residents would get the “quality retail, bookstores and entertainment venues” that they want. As for everyone else, “what’s better than having fabulous restaurants, catering halls, shows and concerts?”
“Tell me, what issue any one of these constituencies would have with our plan,” he said. “We’re asking for motherhood, motherhood. Apple pie, Chevrolet and Coney Island.”
Pause for breath.
“Maybe I sound like a salesman,” Mr. Sitt said, “but I’m passionate about this.”
Jeff Persily, who has worked in the amusement district since 1960 and owns a penny arcade and other property on Bowery Street, agrees with the notion that the amusement area must be turned into a year-round attraction to survive. The city needs to change the zoning to allow for larger buildings, hotels, apartments, parking and retail, he said.
Sounds to me like Ogden's debate over the Junction is NYC's debate over Coney Island redevelopment, in microcosm.
Lionel:
You're asking me to bet that FC will succeed and make its lease payments at least when I've just said it's way too early to know that sort of thing. Coupled with the success or failure or a particular venue within the Junction won't say much about he success of the project overall. Businesses have failed at the Riverdale mall and at the Gateway. Even if FC goes under, the Junction may succeed. [No, that's not a prediction. Too early to tell. Way too early.]
Well just returned from lunch at the Junction....and I must say, it is deserted not a soul there. Nobody doing anything. This place will not last a week.
Oh wait, there were all of those people eating at Costa Vida, a steady stream of wave riders, people working out at the gym, people climbing the wall, people playing games, I think there might have been someone even bowling. In fact, there were more people there than I would have anticipated for a Monday afternoon at 1:30....
I'm sure they are just curiosity traffic and the place is doomed. Doomed I tell ya. I mean, even I can't eat lunch there everyday.
Wall climbing is easy...ask any mother!
If you want to know what you can expect from FatCats go to www.bowling2u.com and click on bowling centers. Then click on Utah. There you will be able to read reviews on all bowling centers in Utah. If you look at the comments posted for FatCats in Salt Lake and Provo you will get an idea of what we are going to see. I can't imagine that they are going to run this place any different.
I just returned from The Junction myself and the place was deserted. The bowling lanes only had one lane going, there was no one in the mini golf or the bumper cars, there were about 15-20 people playing the arcade games, and by the way in true Best Distributing fashion (the company that owns the video games) almost 50% of the games had out of order signs on them. 7 of 8 ski ball games, two token machines, plus a bunch of others. If they aren't working people can't play them. no one in the flow rider or air tunnel. The gym had a few people in it, but not very many.
I expected the restaurants to be much busier since it was lunch time and they weren't real busy. You say time will tell if it will succeed and that it has only been open for 5 days. Well, if these first five days are any indication, especially after they have flooded the radio, newspapers and street signs with advertisements, it's probably a pretty good bet that it is going to struggle.
Historically indoor rec centers struggle and lose substantial amounts of money from about April to September and they rely on October to March to help them generate enough revenue to make it through the summer months. this place will be no exception. If we have mild winters they are in big trouble.
Time will tell, but it will only tell how long it is until the city has to assist the Soloman Center with their monthly rent payments that they are not going to be able to make. Keep in mind that they still have to cover all other expenses associated with their facility like payroll, payroll taxes, insurance, Cost of Goods for their food, workers compensation insurance, utilities ect. ect.
Just so everyone doesn't think that I'm pessimistic, the movie theaters are really quite nice. It's obvious that Larry Miller knows how to put that type of thing together. Very cool ticket counter and all of the food and beverage operations were right next to each other as they are in a mall food court. the message center on the front of the building is very state of the art, but the inside isn't quite finished around the entry way. Good luck to the Junction.
Not Pessimistic:
Ski ball? Fat Cats has ski ball?
WHY WASN'T I TOLD????
The true sport of native Brooklynites, learned in Coney Island penny arcades.
For the first time, Fat Cats [what a god-awful name] starts to look interesting. I may have to check this out. Return to my roots.
Ski ball. In Ogden. Whoda thunk it?
Hi everyone,
Well, I haven't been down to the Junction yet but it's been interesting to read the various reports. Gotta say I agree with Curm (as usual): It's way too early to make any predictions based on first impressions and first-day crowds.
But I will say this: The old mall was a single unit that was bound to succeed or fail all at once. The new Junction has several independent pieces that could succeed or fail separately, even if they do reinforce each other to some degree. I think it was prudent to divide up those two square blocks into smaller pieces, and I'm hopeful that even if some of the pieces don't last, others will.
On another subject, don't forget the Fresh Air Friday kickoff event at the downtown amphitheater this Friday at 11. Hope to see some of you there.
My daughter and her boyfriend went to the Junction on Saturday. I asked them what they thought of the place.
Said it reminded them of the old Chucky Cheese.
Dan, I'm in the dark. What is the fresh air friday? Please tell.
With enough imagination, one could see qute a similarity between Little matty and chucky cheese.
Hey Tec, future security at the Jackass Center should be no problem. Word is Little matty has been working on his own personal STUDEBACHER HOCH imitation, once perfected he'll provide air surveilance.
I just returrned from a the Junction and an hour long Flowrider session. Arrived down ther at about 3. Walked in the front to the ungliest entranceway I have ever seen. It is crowded and quite uncertain what way top go to what attraction. You go left up a stairway to Golds and the iFly. left down a very long hallway to a non descript billiard room and the back entrance to Costa Vida. I was wrong in an earlier post. you can go through Costa Vida in to the Salomon but you are no closer than going around outside being down the long and winding corridor. This place reminded me of a halloween haunted house. Their was absolutely no one bowling. One taker on the
$50/min iFly seemed really disappointed after that very short minute. Even the handful of spectators were disappointed that the flyer had to call it at one, digital, to the hundredth, MINUTE. Not a second of gratis time. What cheapskates but they sure can't have new customers thinking they might get too generous. Same thing at the Flowrider. Signed in at 4:30 for a 5pm session. Got on the trunks and rashguard and was ready at 4:45. There was only one rider on the 4pm session who was likely agreeable yet the attendant absolutely forbid us to warm up or statrt and, god forbid, get 15 minutes of free time on our first time. Never know what kind of precedent you may set. Nevertheless one hour at a time is plenty. This thing will kick your behind. So fun. I'm going back in the morning. There were four of us riding in that session and no one was lacking for ride time. In fact it was better having a couple of bros to shuttle the boards for quick turnaround. I'd rather not ride with more than maybe half a dozen. Unfortunately, the Flowrider is beset with a few typically corny rules. First is the inflexible time management. I would sure like to buy a daytime pass that would allow basically unfettered access during the slow mid day hours. Instead of feeling like I have to hang with my session, it would be nice to take a break. They also would not allow stand up riders on both sides simutaneously. This is a minor restriction and has some merit but it is just as risky having a boogie boarder in the other lane as a surfer. We had only four guys in our session who all wanted to surf and they would not allow us to remove the center divider so we could surf the whole thing. Typically overly-restrictive rules with no flexibility and no logic. It would actually be safer if the small group was all agreed to ride individually on the whole rig.
I had lunch before riding at Costa Vida to find they do not have corn tortillas...yet. They are still awaiting their press. The Costa Vida in Cedar City has Salmon Tacos Noether of the locations here have them. What's with that. Isn't the idea of a chain to be homogenized. When it comes to Salmon tacos I may like the dependability of finding them in Cedar or the OGD.
The floor plan of this place is absolutely hellacious. You have to enter the Flowrider and climbing wall through a little hidden entrance to the left of the big glass. They are completely inaccessible from the interior of the Salomon Center. This really detracts from the party atmosphere and big groups having jointly good time doing several activities.
All in all, I think the Flowrider was their best investment. It takes less square footage than the other attractions and may be lowest maintenence. The power to run the pumps may be substantial but everything else there is pretty energy intensive.
My earlier post pointed out the singularity of use. I can now see that both the flowrider and the billiard room would make easy retail conversions. So they have some potential to reconfigure but those are the smallest spaces. The iFly is, IMHO, a huge waste and I'll bet a beer that it's the first to be dismantled. This thing is a serious space hog. It appears to occupy the whole east side of the center for three or more tall stories. I will likely not be riding that cash burner.
Bill C:
You asked what Fresh Air Friday was. A Godfrey administration program I strongly support and actively like. Such not exactly being thick upon the ground these days, I like to take advantage of them when I can. There's a big kick off shindig this Friday at the Amphitheater, 11:00 AM to 12:30. Here's the city's official explanation:
FRESH AIR FRIDAY is a Sustainable Ogden program designed to encourage commuters to use alternative transportation to work or school at least one day a week! Ride a bike, take the UTA, walk, carpool or telecommute to reduce air pollution and improve the health and well-being of all our residents! Come and learn how you, too, can give your car a day off so we’ll all breathe easier!
"Alternative Transportation Information booths, prizes & More!
free cycling demonstrations!
INFORMATION BOOTHS, DOOR PRIZES, CYCLING CLINICS AND DEMONSTRATIONS"
Curm,
Please don't, as you appear to do, lump me in with those who 'after only five days' think the Junction will fail.
I've always said that I HOPE it will succeed! We taxpayers are on the hook for it. It HAS to be a go!
Thinking and expressing the opinion that some things could and should have been done better, does not translate to 'negativity' as the Mayor and his cronies like to accuse!
I hope you will keep track next winter, Curm, on how many families can afford to bring their kids in out of the cold and plunk down big bucks to entertain the kidlets in a manner that has heretofore been out of their reach.
My 7 children had fun every winter and there wasn't a High Adventure Center anywhere near them.
Did anyone run into the producer? He has offered to pay for me to have a ride on the iFly. I agreed...but where is he now?
I hope he isn't shallow like so many of those H'wood types. Promises, promises. What's a gal to do?
Sharon:
I didn't name anyone who thought that way, Sharon, and didn't do any lumping. My comment was based on some posts here, some conversations around town, and my usual ration of shameless eavesdropping at coffee shoppes. There is a big difference, I know, between expecting the redevelopment project to fail and wanting it to.
Godfrey accuses the council of secrecy.
http://www.standard.net/live/News/106787/
Don't you just love this guy!
Oooooh- I am sore this morning.
That flowrider is a workout. Nothing like getting tumbled as though in a washing machine at least 40 or 50 times in an hour. Even if you have no intention of doing the standup surf thing everyone should try this thing on the boogie board. It is a blast. I'm not a big fan of swimming pools and the ubiquitous chlorine. My eyes were burning last night. But there is no ocean around here and this is a decent inland substitute. All the bicep bulgers are upstairs at Gold's but I doubt many of them have the manimalia to get the full body tenderizer in the flowrider. This really is the best bargain down there. I really cannot see spending 20 bucks on anything else there except an "apre-flow" beer and round of billiards. The bowling could be fun. Nothing like getting your inventory of muscle and connective tissue run through a wringer. Any other WCF regulars going to give it a whirly. I'll be glad to join you to soften the embarassment. Don't worry about a crowd yet. Very few gawkers there yesterday to make me uncomfortable as I got my skeletalia rattled.
Oh yeah, standing up is not that hard. In my group of four none had any experience on it but we were all standing within about ten minutes, after 4 or 5 completely wrangling wipeouts.
Tec:
Apres-flow?
If "apres-flow" wear suddenly starts appearing in Ogden shops, I intend to hold you personally responsible.
Apres-flow.
My god.....
[grin]
I knew someone would find a downside to the apres-flow scene...leave it to Curm.
I take no responsibility for furry-flip-flops, alpine sweater influenced t-shirt prints, or cushy fireside surf furniture.
LOL
No turtlenecks!!
Notice Steve Jobs ALWAYS wears a black turtleneck and bluejeans. Is this guy hungup on his 70's coolguy uniform. Probably got his first lay wearing it and couldn't retire the look.
Notice Chris Peterson ALWAYS wears a black fleece Patagonia vest and blue jeans. Are these guys clones. They kind of look similar.
Tec
Is it $20 buck for the flow rider? Is that for an hour?
It sounds like I could get the same experience for free in my washing machine!
Just what this old "obstructionist" needs: "4 or 5 completely wrangling wipeouts." Do you suppose that Godfrey has invested in some Chiropractic shops about town?
That's right Oz, 20/hr. And the "4 or 5 completely wrangling wipeouts." was just to learn to stand. The next 40 or 50 wipeouts in that single hour turned me to butter today. I was worthless. When you wipeout you also get spit over the lip to the drain grate up top. It's covered in carpet but is solid. Unlike the wave itself which is pumped over a tarp like structure. In other words, each wipeout is like two ass-kickings. I hit the back wall a couple of times. Other times the board comes up and over right behind you and can smack you just about anywhere. I may be ready for round two tomorrow or it may take another day to recover. I get hungrier as I gain back some strength. I really like a workout that wrenches every muscle and ones that get forgotten. Gym rats spend hours working a handful of specific areas. The Flowrider is equal opportunity workout. No muscle escapes it's wrath.
They have one in San Diego that is a curling wave called the Brutus Maximus. Just watching a surfer wipeout on it hurts.
It really is a gas.
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