By Curmudgeon
There are two SE stories this morning worth noting. The first describes Mayor Godfrey's call to shift more BDO revenues to bonded debt reduction and to build a "rainy day fund" for Ogden. Here are the opening graphs:
BDO revenues may cut Ogden debtSince I suspect the level of city debt might be an issue in the election this fall, I'm not surprised Godfrey is being preemptive in addressing it before his challengers do. Thus he can shape the discussion that follows. Wise of him. And too bad challengers didn't get out on this ground first.
Mayor: $150K a year could eliminate it by 2016
BY SCOTT SCHWEBKE
OGDEN — The mayor is seeking $150,000 annually from Business Depot Ogden revenues to accelerate a payment plan aimed at eliminating the city’s $21.5 million general fund debt by 2016.
Mayor Matthew Godfrey has requested the ongoing funding as part of Ogden’s fiscal 2008 budget that will be considered Tuesday by the city council.
The proposal will require fiscal discipline that will ultimately free up money to create a permanent funding source for capital improvement projects, Godfrey said.
It would also establish a "rainy day fund" that could be used by the city in financial emergencies, he said.
Anyway, two points to keep in mind, I think: (a) the plan is based on anticipated revenues from BDO. I seem to recall at a Council meeting some months ago, the Council was informed that revenues from BDO for the previous quarter were in fact half what had been projected. So I wonder if the Mayor's projections on which his plan is based are sound ones or not. And (b) Mayor Godfrey has been in office for seven years. He has, by some accounts, hugely increased the bonded debt of Ogden City. And now, seven years into his tenure and only five months before the election he is expected to run in, now he's looking for ways to fix the city's finances? The cynic in me wants to mumble something about "where have you been the previous seven years on this, Mayor?"
Nevertheless, suspicions about the Mayor's pre-election sudden interest in fixing Ogden's finances aside, his plan deserves to be examined on its merits. I like the rainy day fund idea [all cities, all states should have substantial ones to help smooth out funding disruptions created by the business cycle... especially in this state where Republican legislators treat every surplus by assuming the good times are going to roll forever, and so use them to cut taxes, which inevitably creates a severe funding shortfall the next time the business cycle tanks... as it will, as it will.] So a rainy day fund is a good idea, so is putting the city's capital improvements budget on a sounder footing, and so is reducing the city's bonded indebtedness. The questions we need to look into, then, are these:
- Is the Mayor's plan solidly grounded in real-world projections of revenues, etc?
- And if it is, will the plan he's proposing achieve what he says it will achieve?
Second, there is a front page story on a topic I suspect will play no small part in the coming election in Ogden. Here's the opening lede:
OGDEN — A steady increase in daytime burglaries has police asking residents to be more cautious and keep an eye out for suspicious activities in their neighborhood. Detective Chris Bishop said teenagers and young adults, about 14 to 20 years old, are working in groups to break into houses and steal jewelry, cameras, computers and other small, valuable items.The cyber-world eagerly awaits our gentle readers' comments.
While the burglaries are happening in areas all over Ogden, police have seen an increase in Shadow Valley and Ogden’s east bench, Sgt. Kyle Bosgieter said.
53 comments:
Ms. Littrell,
Would you consider sending a Guest Commentary explaining Ogden's financial situation in as simple terms as possible to the SE? Even if it were never printed, which I would hope would not be the case, its inclusion here might help us and Mr. Schwebke to have a better idea of the scope of this situation.
So many games are being played with Peter being borrowed against to pay Paul, that my head is spinning. I am sure that is the intent of those playing these shell games.
At least to start, the general public would need a simplified presentation if they are ever to follow the money trail. If it appears to complicated, people will just give up trying to understand, so this is a real challenge.
Here is a letter that I wrote that was printed in the SE as shown. It appears that Godfrey has now put out another news release to make sure he gets the last word, even if that last word is - wait for it - misleading.
~~~
Reader addresses Ogden's ballooning debt
Sunday, May 13, 2007
Recently, the Standard-Examiner ran a story saying Mayor Godfrey was formulating a plan to pay off the city's general obligation debt in nine years (May 2 news story, "Ogden mayor offers budget of $106M").
The figure Godfrey mentioned was $20 million of debt.
However, city documents show that in 2005 the total city debt was actually almost three times that amount, or $56 million. And, from 2005 to 2006, city debt ballooned to $93 million, an increase of 66 percent in just one year.
And this debt does not include the final costs of the recreation center, which won't be available until after completion.
Some in the Godfrey administration have used sophistries, saying the new debt will be paid for by various means other than by taxpayers, or that it is not really debt at all.
And yet, in the past year, some city buildings were pledged to assure repayment of the ballooning debt. It appears that the lenders intend for this debt to be paid by Ogden city, one way or another.
Still others will claim such matters are beyond the grasp of the public. Yet, these figures are available for all to see, in the city's well-compiled public records.
Much of this debt was incurred literally, to pay people and companies to move to Ogden, even though the vast majority of people and businesses get along without this corporate welfare.
I disagree with this debt, and the policies behind it.
David Smith
Ogden
As a side note, why does Scott Schwebke find it necessary to basically do a re-run of a Godfrey election campaign news release only a month after he ran an identical one? (see reference.)
It seems like pimping to me, and if I were a reporter, it would make me feel kind of -- well -- used.
Is Neil Hansen breaking the law by campaigning already?
And if you've seen his car and yard signs, you can't deny he is campaigning.
Filing date for elections is July 15th.
D. Registration: Before the personal campaign committee makes any expenditure for political purposes on behalf of the candidate, or incurs any obligation, express or implied, to make an expenditure in the candidate's behalf, the candidate or committee shall file with the City Recorder a written statement, signed by the candidate setting forth that the candidate's personal campaign committee has been appointed or elected, and giving the name and address of each member and the secretary of the committee.
(1979 Code § 1.20.030; Ord. 95-53, 7-18-1995)
Any person violating any provision of this Chapter is guilty of a Class B misdemeanor, punishable under Chapter 4 of this Title, and no person convicted thereof shall be permitted to take or hold the office to which the person was elected, if any, or receive the emoluments thereof.
gonna be...
I dunno, why don't you ask AG Mark Shurtleff for his opinion?
Well, Rep Hansen, it appears that at least one of your detractors can READ!
David S...I recall that fine letter you submitted to the SE last month. I hope Dorothy will do the same.
Maybe you two could do a double commentary as I've seen on the editorial pages of the Standard?
I agree that Scott should feel, well, "used", also. There are times he steps up and writes a pretty good column but, IMHO, too often is a hack for Godfrey.
Curm...you're hitting on all cylinders today! I know the SE reads this blog, so there is no excuse for the editors NOT to get on the side of TRUTH, HONESTY AND THE AMERICAN FLAG, is there?
(Oh yeah, I guess there is. But I keep hoping they'll expose the little guy anyway!)
Anyone else notice the numbers on crime stats today? Ogden wins!! But, daring to incite bobby g's sneer....dare I say, that 'the gondola' will wipe out crime? Officers will peer down on the mean streets ready to shoot the bad guys...with stun guns and rubber bullets, of course.
Think of it! We'll be the first ever in the country to have crime fighting gondola cars manned by armed cops keeping watch by night (and day!).
Thank you, Mr. Mayor. I feel proud.
lol...not a detractor...he may be a fine man and candidate...just curious...
Sharon you sure can make a lot of assumptions and so incorrectly most of the time.
I was a bit surprised to see someone speeding down Harrison in a car with plates that said Rep. 09 plastered in election stickers (I would only be guessing to say it was his daughter-breaking the speed limit.)...then I also saw yard signs popping up.
Perhaps I will call the AG. Seems like a perfect petty little things to trouble his office with. Thanks for the suggestion!!!!!
Gonna be a long campaign season.
Why don't you ask godfrey that same question, since he broke the law four years ago by taking a bribe from a contributor in feb. before the election.
Go get the facts straight.
It seems to me the city attorney has already ruled on this one. Go bark up a different tree!!
Gonna be:
I'm not an attorney, but it looks to me like the statute says you can spend your own money anytime you want, but if you set up a campaign committee and use it to pay campaign expenses, you have to declare first.
In defense of the SE [yet again]:
The Council is now considering the budget, which it must approve, as I understand it, this month. That makes the Schewbke story timely, regardless of what he wrote about city finances a month ago. How accurate it is, whether it should probed the Mayor's numbers more deeply, etc. are other matters. But I can't fault its timeliness.
Look, the mayor is an elected official. He therefor has the ability to affect news cycles that challengers do not have, by right of his holding his elective office. He would be foolish not to use that ability to shape the discussion of campaign issues to his advantage. If I were an incumbent running for re-election, and I could control, to some extent, the debate via press releases and timely submissions to the Council, you better believe I'd do it.
Challengers who cannot command press coverage in the same way as a sitting mayor can, need to be therefor especially creative and effective in getting their message out. If they are constantly playing catchup, constantly merely reacting to the Mayor's proposals and statements, they will find it very hard to win. If a candidate now comes out with an Ogden City Debt press release or interview, he or she will be merely reacting to the Mayor on the issue. If the challenger had gotten a major piece on Ogden's debt out first, then it would be the Mayor who appeared to be reacting to the candidate's policy. Timing matters in campaigns. Challengers will have to take on the debt question... particularly the question of how big it really is [see Dave S. letter above]... but now they will be playing catch-up, seems to me.
As for Mr. Hansen beginning to campaign: I am not an atty either, but the ordinance seems, on its face, to say what Monotreme said of it just above.
Wow...ask a simple question.
Some of you people need therapy.
I was really thrilled to see the skyline of Ogden! Some picture the Standard printed with PeeWee smiling so proudly.
The Junction is opening....is that tomorrow? Anyway, dig the mud puddles and the construction pit in the foreground.
Yep, the mall is sure ready for those thousands of visitors to show up!
My tax dollars at work...but no workMEN in sight!
gonna,
what assuumptions? that one of you can read?
I didn't suggest you call the AG's office about Hansen's signs on his own property.
That's the kind of small and petty thinking that emanates from the 9th floor. Didn't 'someone' with a sign in his store window win a lawsuit against the city (Godfrey) for that same Hitler tactic?
Reread Curm's civic lesson.
Good evening, and welcome to another edition of "Bob Geiger is a pussy and so are his friends." In addition to Mitchell Hardwood Flooring (and, again, clown, your son was up there all day, and you think the staff shop is free daycare, yet you sign a petition to sell it to Wayne Peterson for one pennie on the dollar; you are a jackass, and surely you understand that if Wayne owns the golf course your son cannot hange out there all day for free), I urge all readers to boycott Ogden Blue. Yes, that's right, Ogden Blue Art & Reprographics on Historic 25th Street. These douchebags have been Little Matty Gondola Godfrey and Geiger supporters since the get-go. Go elsewhere and let them know why. Do not spend a penny where its residual might help Teeny Matty geyt reelected. Small Little Clown. But worse than he: Bob Geiger.
Oh, and guess whose fat ass just joined Ogden Golf & Country Club? Mike "Gondola Boy, jackass!" Dowse. Listen, fatboy, let's play nine holes; if you can break 40, I'll swear my undying allegiance to Lift Ogden...and I'll pay you $100 for every par you make, you silly-ass fat chop. Have fun playing with the Geigers.
Jason
Although we both apparently have some serious issues with the Gondola and the Godfreyites, I must say you seem to be going a little overboard with your rabid personal attacks on these men.
I doubt if there is any one that has more contempt for Godfrey than I do. However, I think your venomous attacks on all of these people might do more harm to our cause than good. Especially troubling is the insults directed toward Mr. Dowse.
I don't know Mr. Dowse, or anything about him. But seeing that he is the leader of a significant company that is moving to Ogden, and because he seems to be pretty low key and not involved overtly in promoting the Gondola or city park giveaway, I would hope that we could all give him the benefit of any doubt before we tear him apart or heap insults upon him.
Bob Geiger of course is very pugnacious and willing to duke it out with anyone that disagrees with this dumb assed Gondola idea. He can dish it out as well as any of us anti Gondola activists, so I am less concerned about hurting his feelings.
But I have to repeat one more time that although I only know him very slightly, I actually like the guy and admire his dogged pursuit of what he believes in. I also appreciate his fearlessness in going to war in defense of his cause, regardless of how bat shit crazy it really is. He is a worthy foe and he certainly makes things interesting. He is also going to keep us all on our toes, something that is critical if we are going to drive a stake through the heart of this Gondola monster once and for all.
I think that when Bob gets through the mourning period after the Gondola is dead and buried, he will go on to contribute many good things in Ogden. He is a young guy with a lot of passion and I think his intentions are for a better future for Ogden, and I certainly don't have any problem with that.
So Jason old buddy, how about lightening up a bit, take a valium, relax and enjoy this coming brawl. We need you thinking calmly and deliberately if we're going to kick these guy's butts on this issue. Besides, life is too damn short to get your jock in such a knot that it strangles you.
Oz:
I think you're right that over the top name-calling personal attacks accomplish little or nothing, and probably get posts dismissed as emotional unreasoning ranting rather than points of view to be taken seriously. Name-calling personal attacks might make those who post them feel good for a while, but I don't they they accomplish much by way of convincing the undecideds on an issue. Any issue.
Jason,
I don't get your references to Mitchell Hardwood Flooring and Godfrey and baby sitting his kid? Or Ogden Blue Art...?
What's that all about? Also, who can explain the THE SKI IS BEAUTIFUL? Or THE SKI IS BLUE??
Too many "inside" slogans for me, I guess.
Anyway, Jason, I'm not offended by your posts, but Oz has some good sense there. Just tell us what you were talking about in a clear way. I'm not a real smart guy I guess. Thanks.
Yes Jason, maybe it would help if you asked your doctor to maybe adjust your meds.
I know it worked for Ozboy, he used to rave on just like you do.
Neil Hansen should be the Mayor!
Since he is the only elected official we’ve seen step up to help us cops out.
Waa, Waaa if he's already spending his own money to run for mayor.
I can't wait until July 15. So I can donate to his campaign.
Didn’t Neil Hansen run for mayor four years ago? So, would that mean he already registered his campaign four years ago? Are the C. A. V. E. people starting their crusade against Neil Hansen too?
Ogden is about to become even more infam....I mean, famous!!! I like the idea in the letters in the SE today: having a gorilla pull a cart of vistors up and down 25th street!
How cool is that?
First in the country! First EVER in the nation! Thousands will come to take a ride.
It's a PR dream...a gorilla in the streets and a monkey on the 9th floor trying to ape a successful leader.
Article in today's NY Times with, maybe, some application to Ogden's attempts to draw residents to downtown. Link here.
Here are the two paragraphs that caught my eye:
"America’s suburbs, historically a haven for young families with children, are aging more rapidly than the nation’s central cities as the first suburban generation grows older."
"At the same time, there are early signs of a possible trend of wealthier and more educated older suburbanites moving to the cities."
I wonder if Ogden, in drawing up its short and long term plans for urban growth and change, takes into account research into likely changes in the demographics of urban places.
Anyway, thought it an interesting article with, maybe, some bearing on Ogden's future as well.
I understand the Neil Hansen will not be taking the trip to china, that is to bad. he could have invited all 1.4 billion china people to come here and ride the world renoun gondola, please Rep. Hansen won't you please reconsider and invite them to this world renoun resort!! OH. I forgot they may not have green cars or visa's so they would just be illeagles. well nice try anyway, and for your efforts we will give you
$900,000.00 for your good faith effort. go see mayor godfrey and the AG office for your money.
OK, I am a certifiable nutjob and my recent posts have stripped me of any credibility (not that I had a semblance of that quality in the first place). I was simply mindboggled that Geiger would start calling people out by name in the paper (and why in the world would the paper print it?); it violated the unspoken code of the great civic and blog battle over the Silly Gondola to Nowhere, but my recent campaign has put me on the same egregious level as our adopted son and community savior Bob Geiger. I will transfer my batshit loony energies to a more productive effort, once I can save enough money to buy a sandwich board. But I still think Gondola Boy Mike Dowse is a jackass. THE SKI IS BEAUTIFUL BLUE.
Jason W.-
As business owner who puts in a lot of time and effort outside of my business attempting to do great things for this city I think you should readjust your thinking. Unless you are part of the various groups who are doing things, you have no idea what is going on in this city, who is doing what, and who is really making a difference. Every few days I log on to this site and look to see what the posters (posers in many cases)are thinking. If you knew the efforts that Ogden Blue and many of the businesses put in making events happen in this town you would sing a different tune. But sadly you don't-just as many of the people who post here. So I must ask, WHAT DO YOU DO?...to better this community. Post on a forum? I hope you do more than that because people who have been turning this town around, Gondola or not are busting their asses daily, weekly, etc. to continue the progress made. So yes, credibility lost with me and perhaps one day you can walk into my business and I can refuse you serve you. (Or better yet, I can be the bigger man and know that you know not what you say.
Think about it:
Didn't the little boy who pointed out that the emperor had no clothes do a greater public service than the sycophants who surrounded that emperor and convinced him he did?
While I appreciate most of your above post and agree, it is very off putting for you to repeat that tired and stupid old refrain of the Godfreyites that only they are doing anything good for the future of Ogden.
There are many people who post on this blog who do a lot more for Ogden than some others who make up the cheering section for the Mayor.
You do not have an exclusive franchise on the truth regardless of what Geiger, Godfrey et al say.
Think About It:
You wrote: Unless you are part of the various groups who are doing things, you have no idea what is going on in this city, who is doing what, and who is really making a difference.
Well, I wonder how restrictive [or expansive} your list of "groups who are doing things" is. Would it include, for example, groups like Weber Pathways? Or the Mt. Ogden Rotary Club? Or PTA? Or the Sierra Club? [The above by way of example of non-business based groups that I would say are "doing things" and "making a difference." There are others.]
One of the things that irks me is the smug assumption on the part of many of the Lift Ogden Amen Chorus [and I don't know if you are among that group or not] that the only people in Ogden who are trying to improve things in the city, who are working to "make things happen" are those who agree with them, and that all others are somehow against Ogden's growth and opposed to progress. This attitude, often expressed by Mr. Geiger for example, implies that he and those who agree with him have in effect "the light, the truth and the way" and those who disagree are merely "naysayers" and "CAVES" [Citizens Against Virtually Everything]and such like.
Seems to me a more accurate way to look at things, and definitely a more productive one for the city, would be to grant that both the members of Lift Ogden and supporters of Smart Growth Ogden [to use those two as an illustration] have the best interests of the city in mind, are working to "make things happen" in Ogden. They simply disagree on what the best course of action is.
I caught a whiff of that annoying attitude in your post --- perhaps it wasn't there and I'm over-reading. But it seemed to imply that only those involved in your groups [unspecified] are "making things happen." But maybe I read too much into it.
This is a discussion [gondola or not; transit corridor to WSU or down Washington to Riverdale; zoning law change disagreements; best transit options; etc.] about what the course of wisdom is for Ogden. It is not a debate between those who want Ogden to be a better place to live and work on the one hand, and those who are opposed to improving Ogden on the other. Both sides, seems to me, aim to do the latter. We are disagreeing not about ends, but about means. And we are disagreeing about whether the policy choices favored by each side on each issue will in fact improve the quality of life in Ogden or detract from it.
I agree completely that we ought to be able to disagree about these things, and argue for our own views without name calling and discent into personal abuse.
Without knowing you personally, or your business, I wondered as I read your post if you share Mr. Geiger's assumption that only those who agree with him are "for progress" and those who do not are simply "naysayers" and opponents of progress? Or are you willing to grant that those who think differently than you do about options for Ogden's improvement nevertheless are as committed to improving the city and life in it as you are?
Oz:
GMTA
That sneer of "what are you doing for Ogden?" is a Godfrey quote that I've heard him hurl!
Oz is correct. Many of us on here don't 'pray in public like the Publicans' for all to see our good works.
Hooray for anyone who helps our community. ONE of the ways we can help our community is to stop some of the foolish spending and ideas emanating from the 9th floor AND cheered on by persons who don't understand the real issues in Ogden.
Dig a little...tell the emporer he is nekkid as a jay bird (sorry for the insult, birdie)...and keep doing your good works.
Jason,
I'm happy to see that your contriteness isn't going to impact your humor and dilgence in uncovering the dopeyness swirling 'bout our region.
BTW...what is the SKI IS A BEAUTIFUL BLUE? You were asked that and some other questions above. Will you enlighten the masses? Keep your vigilant eye on Ogden!
Just as people speak from points of view, people hear form points of view and evidently you can only hear Gieger and Godfrey. I'm not a member of Lift Ogden or Smart Growth because from talking to both camps I can tell half of your brain shuts down when you align yourself with either one.
Sharon...you don't know what you are talking about. And you demonstrate it almost every time you type.
Crum...whether one belongs to the groups you mentioned or others, there are many behind the scenes doing a lot who ask for little or no recognition. And if someone attacks a business I know that does a lot more that just support a gondola I will call B.S. on it.
And perhaps you missed my point completely....Godfrey, no Godfrey, no Geiger, gondola, no gondola, these are the people who will continue to make the changes and the positive impacts in this city by having businesses here, by being active on committee, by doing more than just typing their complaints.
So Crum, don't put words in my mouth that I didn't type. Start reading what you read for the words sake, not, is this Gieger or Godfrey.
I don't know your business either, there for I read your words for what they are. Not did Dan S. or Rudi put him up to this.
All I can say is that I own a business downtown out of choice and I am an active participant in my community...perhaps even the Sierra Club...and perhaps a business organization downtown. Despite what you polarize people think, organizations aren't mutually exclusive an there is value to having an open mind and ears.
Crum to answer your question: "Or are you willing to grant that those who think differently than you do about options for Ogden's improvement nevertheless are as committed to improving the city and life in it as you are?"
What are my options for Ogden's future? Did you glean that from my post? What assumptions have you made? And finally are they involved? If you consider involvement posting on this website, then I would ask they they get more involved. I hear different opinions every day. And yes some are committed and some just like hearing themselves talk.
therefore - please excuse my typos as I'm not as skilled as Mr. Crum in that area.
Aside from the Geigers and Descente, who are confirmed gondo-loonies and have invited attack by going on the attack...
Instead of trashing someone or their business for supporting Godfrey or the gondola-to-nowhere concept, I view them as potential for education. Most soft supporters are quite willing to listen and understand some of the facts.
My sense is that Chris Peterson has long since abandoned the whole idea. I wouldn't doubt if he simply has just told G/G that if he can keep it alive good luck, he'll be there with the land. It is Godfrey and Geiger who are keeping the candle lit. Mostly so Godfrey can save political face and in Geiger's case, simply because this guy refuses to admit error and has so embarassed himself in the name of the gondola that he will never drop the issue. Such weak men.
Well new off the press,,,,,
there is a clone look alike of the steve larson type, that is going to jump in to the mayors race just to up set things for all the other candidates, his name is David Haun, he is just like steve larson and they went to church together, but dave never got married, he just lived with a girl for a while and now he is baching it now. he served on the city council twice and got the boot both times and now he wants to do some more damage in the mayors office. doesn't he know that when your a dead politician to lie still, at any case, I'm sure I and all my voter friends that had to deal with him in the other offices that he held will come out and haunt him.. I guess I will call him dave haunt. because he is one scary person.
Ps. I understand that Ed Allen is behind this race to help the son in law win...
Think About It:
Well, not much to add, I think, except this. Telling folks who are engaged in groups like LO and SGO that, because they are so engaged, half their brains shut down does not seem like a particularly effective way to start a conversation.
As for this --- "whether one belongs to the groups you mentioned or others, there are many behind the scenes doing a lot who ask for little or no recognition" --- I couldn't agree more.
I made no assumptions about where you stood on matters. I asked where you stood on a couple of questions your post raised, and noted that I may have read into your remarks more than was there. As, clearly, you think I did. You might at lest consider then the possibility that you were not being as clear in what you posted as you thought you were being.
Nothing in my reply to you attacked you. It asked a few questions based on what it seemed to me you'd implied by your post, which reminded me of the attitude of others. So I asked. A simple reply minus the sneering derision -- e.g. brains half shut down, and Crum etc. ---you complained about [rightly] in others would have been sufficient. And wiser.
I'm glad to year you're involved in many ways, besides your business, in improving Ogden. [So, I like to think, am I.] Keep it up and, if you'll permit just one suggestion, learn to take on those who disagree or who seem to, with what you've said [or think you've said] with a little more good will than your reply, I think, exhibited today.
Is Ed Allen really so Machiavellian? Is he studying Joseph P. Kennedy's campaign book from JFK's first Congressional race (1946)? Papa Kennedy, they say, paid someone with the same name as the incumbent to enter the primary. That was just one of his devious and ingenious means of confusing the electorate and diluting the vote. Could it happen in Ogden?
MM
Maybe this would explain the three requests that were filed with the District Court to change their names to Neil Hansen? And to think that I thought they were simply admirers of Neil!
And if I may be so bold, I say yes!, Ed Allen and all of the Godfreyites are "Machiavellian" enough to do this and any other dirty deed they can think of to continue the dynasty.
I anticipate they will conduct the dirtiest campaign in Ogden's history. Being a history buff, I am sure you are aware that there have been some pretty nasty ones in the past.
MM
There is a wonderful tale, true, written by Tony Hillerman [who was a reporter for the Santa Fe newspaper before he started writing Indian county mysteries]. It's about a candidate [a Hispanic] in a race in New Mexico for the legislature who was paid by another candidate [an Anglo], or promised pay rather, if he'd enter the race. The Anglo candidate concluded that the Hispanic candidate he was paying to enter the race would take more votes from his opponent than from him. But then he didn't pay the guy the agreed upon sum. So the guy who was paid to run sued the Anglo candidate for the money he was promised to run against him.
Hillerman's tale is a hoot and a half, and all true. It's in a book of his reporting called The Great Taos Bank Robbery, the chapter about the election is entitled "Mr. Luna's Lazarus Act." This is political science where the rubber meets the road. If you've never read it, I think you'll enjoy it.
Thanks for joining in on the discussion, Think About It.
This forum is a lively 24/7 community discussion blog; and all viewpoints are welcome.
That you say you've been "lurking" for a while, before offering your first comments today, displays excellent "Net Etiquette."
We're sure you'll be a welcome contributor to our net community, provided you're inclined to read and post regularly, and most importantly -- get to know "the regulars." Once you do this, you'll inevitably find that they're just as "involved," "concerned" and every bit as "intelligent" and "pro-progress" as you. Perhaps you'll even make some new friends.
In the sense that you run a business in Ogden, BTW, this by no way makes you unique. We have numerous posters here who operate businesses here, including your webmaster.
What we mainly do here at Weber County Forum is to springboard community blog discussions off the Emerald City-relevant news stories of the day.
Our readers are concerned about fiscal prudence, thorough planning, good business plans and honesty in government -- the same issues which ought to concern a downtown businessman like you.
Your blogmaster believes that the extra-curricular community involvement and intelligence of MOST of our readers compares very favorably with anyone in this city.
And one more thing: If you want to get along here, please don't personally attack our comments regulars. Although our Terms of Service/Posting Policy generally prohibits "flame attacks," we have a particular zero tolerance policy prohibiting ad hominem flames directed at regular posters.
Please avoid attacking people who post here regularly, like our gentle Sharon, in other words. Like your Momma probably taught ya's: If you disagree with her, please do so politely.
Welcome to the Blog!
Rudi:
Well, we disagree. Yet again. I figure anyone who posts here --- regular, occasional drop in, first and only timer --- gets to have at every other poster --- regular, occasional drop in, first and only timer --- on exactly the same terms. No seniority rights.
But then, I'm a Democrat --- you know, one of those who thinks the rules should be the same for everyone, all the time and without exception. [grin]
No! We do NOT disagree on this, Curmudgeon.
Sheesh!
If you read the Terms of Service\Posting Policy of this blog, you'll recognize we're particularly protective of the people who post here.
In that doument we make it quite clear. We will delete comments in this instance, among others:
2. The post contains flaming, name calling, derogatory or obscene language, or gratuitous personal attacks, particularly if directed against other readers.
Local LDS people call such a thing "a special dispension," BTW
;-)
Although we did place special emphasis on "regulars" in our above comment, this rule applies to all posters who enter comments on WCF, in good faith
I agree with that one Curmudgeon!
If you can't take "incoming" you shouldn't be dishing it out on this blog to begin with.
So hey new guy - welcome and let er rip, I got my flak jacket on and can take anything you can throw at me! The more intelligent your verbal grenades, the more fun we will all have - including you!
Beware however that assaults without at least a little humor, merit or intellect will only get you ridiculed and skewered without mercy. If you are a "real" Ogden boy you will understand this concept. However, if you are a humorless carpetbagger, say from Harrisville, this idea will be pretty foreign to you and you might just get your delicate little feelings hurt.
And make no mistake about it, that's what this blog is about - having fun with verbal combat using ideas as ammunition. That's a lot better than storming the ninth floor with real guns and grenades like the aggrieved citizens of France did at the Bastille and Versaille with that other heartless tyrant Louis XVI.
As with all group sports you sometimes have to put up with the idiots who want to play, (which includes me according to some) but that's a minor inconvenience at worse.
PS - I believe that Sharon can take anything you can deliver also. She might slap your face if you get in hers, but you most likely will survive it, Bobby did, ask him about it!
Well in the spirit of the terms of service I will point out that Sharon starts almost every post of something that she disagrees with by insulting the person behind the message. Not the message itself.
That is fine and as regular she is evidently entitled. So I will gently disagree with that tactic as it does nothing to promote honest meaningful dialog. She may be a fine person just like Neil Hansen, but her insults make me think less of her.
And Crum....You sure typed a lot for "not much to add" lol
"Well, not much to add, I think, except this. Telling folks who are engaged in groups like LO and SGO that, because they are so engaged, half their brains shut down does not seem like a particularly effective way to start a conversation."
Good point...listen, what I meant to say is that there are many people in those groups that are so polar opposite, that you can't have a reasonable conversation with them as their identity is invested in their position. Both sides!I've seen neighbors stop talking to each other and friendships end over the positions taken on these issues. But that is how human belief systems work. And when those things happen, a community doesn't win no matter how the issue works out.
Think...
What's your problem?
It's C U R M... Not Crum, just saying, you know?
Now, what did I say that actually set you off? That I said Neil has at least one edtractor that can read? That's not too tuff to take, is it?
That I asked Jason to keep his sense of humor and an eye on Ogden?
Uh oh, bet it was the poking a little fun at patrolling the mean and crime ridden streets of Ogden from 'the gondola!'
Well, lighten up. As Ozboy says, keep a sense of humor...or cultivate one. I don't think Rudi mails out Pepto Bismol to the humorless with heartburn.
Think,
Care to tell which business you operate in Ogden?
Perhaps we posters could drop in?
Think About:
You wrote: I've seen neighbors stop talking to each other and friendships end over the positions taken on these issues.... And when those things happen, a community doesn't win no matter how the issue works out.
Agreed, which is why I put a lot of emphases on civil discussion of public issues. Whatever issue it is we may be disagreeing about, when it's all over, we will all still be residents of Ogden, and will still have to work together on other matters for the public good. Debate/discussion can be vigorous, animated, even [occasionally] passionate, and no complaint from me. But when it drops into personal invective, there I sign off, as it seems you do as well.
On that at least we both seem to be on the same page.
After he read the last letter to the editor I wrote, Bob Geiger called my wife posing as a reporter, and got my work number. He called and we talked for about an hour. He seemed a little agitated at first but after awhile things settled down and were fairly enjoyable. I pointed out that in the future we may still often disagree, but suggested we always remain friendly, and he said he is a friendly guy too.
I feel this blog is a good place to discuss things, even if sometimes we let our muses run a little wild. (And man, doesn’t it feel good to do that?) But it all seems in good fun. I feel there have been many good sentiments expressed here today, for instance.
I have always believed that honest people, if they will talk, will eventually all come to the same place. It’s wonderful to have this place to talk.
"That's a lot better than storming the ninth floor with real guns and grenades like the aggrieved citizens of France did at the Bastille and Versaille with that other heartless tyrant Louis XVI." - Ozboy
While the idea is pure fantasy, storming the Ninth Floor is such a wonderful thought.
Curm, you're the historian. Did they have grenades back then?
ogden:
That's French history. Not my classification. But I'll find out.
Oz:
It's possible they did. The below is from the Wikipedia entry under history of hand grenades. They seem to have not been very effective, and so not much used until the Crimean war, and came into heavy use in WWI. Whether anybody used them at the Bastille... I'd say no, but knew a couple of people who didn't quite have what it takes to become American Historians and so became French historians instead. I'll as them.
From Wikpedia:
The first grenade was invented in China during the Song Dynasty (960—1279 AD), when Chinese soldiers packed gunpowder into ceramic and/or metal containers.
In 1643 it is possible that 'Grenados' were 'thrown amongst the Welsh' at Holt Bridge during the English Civil War.
The use of the word 'grenade' in the English language apparently originated in the Glorious Revolution (1688), where cricket ball-sized iron spheres packed with gunpowder and fitted with slow-burning wicks were first used against the Jacobites in the battles of Killiecrankie and Glen Shiel.[5]
These grenades were not very effective (probably because a direct hit would be necessary for the grenade to have effect) and, as a result, they saw little use.
This discussion reminds me of one of my favorite speeches of all time, by the aptly named Justice Learned Hand.
Emphases mine.
"What do we mean when we say that first of all we seek liberty? I often wonder whether we do not rest our hopes too much upon constitutions, upon laws and upon courts. These are false hopes; believe me, these are false hopes.
...
And what is this liberty which must lie in the hearts of men and women? It is not the ruthless, the unbridled will; it is not freedom to do as one likes. That is the denial of liberty, and leads straight to its overthrow.
A society in which men recognize no check upon their freedom soon becomes a society where freedom is the possession of only a savage few; as we have learned to our sorrow.
What then is the spirit of liberty? I cannot define it; I can only tell you my own faith.
The spirit of liberty is the spirit which is not too sure that it is right; the spirit of liberty is the spirit which seeks to understand the mind of other men and women; the spirit of liberty is the spirit which weighs their interests alongside its own without bias; the spirit of liberty remembers that not even a sparrow falls to earth unheeded; the spirit of liberty is the spirit of Him who, near two thousand years ago, taught mankind that lesson it has never learned but never quite forgotten; that there may be a kingdom where the least shall be heard and considered side by side with the greatest. "
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