Emerald City shoot-em-up. Although we normally don't cover the crime beat here at Weber County Forum, we can't ignore today's Standard-Examiner front page story, headlined: "Double shooting on Ogden street." In a scenario reminiscent of South-Central L.A., west-side Oakland, California, (or Tombstone Arizona, circa 1881) gunfire erupted yesterday between two vehicles travelling along Monroe Boulevard in broad daylight-- 20th and Monroe -- to be exact.A neighbor who resides near the intersection where the shootings occurred described the aftermath of the incident, and told the Std-Ex reporter that "she just moved from a small town out of state and was not used to seeing 'stuff like this.'"
"We're quite shocked by 'stuff like this' this ourselves," your Ogden-native blogmeister also confides, in a rare WCF self-interview.
Now that Emerald City is "on the map" we suppose we'll have to get used to big-time street gun-play, just like many other cities who are map-worthy. As we learned during our interactions with Ogden police officers during the 2005 "public safety officer pay plan flap," Boss Godfrey's major anti-crime emphasis centers mainly on writing tickets to little old ladies who've inadvertently rolled through a stop-sign, or nailing crazed motorists with a burned-out tail-light. It's a question of mayoral priorities, of course. Busted gangbangers don't contribute much cash revenue to the city coffers, even when they're actively involved in blowing away other gangbangers.
The last time we spoke with OPD gang-unit officers about this, BTW, they told us they were seriously understaffed, with barely enough manpower to manage the bare paperwork. Perhaps we'll be lucky enough to hear today from one of our "Ogden's Finest" officer readers, with an update on this situation -- so we can decide whether we need to arm ourselves for our own protection -- until after the November election.
River Project progress. We were pleased to read this morning's Std-Ex/Ace Reporter Schwebke Business Section article, reporting that the River Project is "taking shape." Ogden City's own Bingham Cyclery is planning to occupy its soon to be constructed building 200 feet from the river, and adjacent to the riverside bikepath/trail.
What makes this story especially newsworthy, we think, is that it's actually a local company who's received the mayor's favorable nod on this, rather than some giant international bicycle retailer conglomerate, who might have been lured here by generous tax increment discounts and other glad-handed favors.
A WCF Tip o' the Hat to Bingham Cyclery, with added best wishes for business success.
Lambs to the Slaughter. In other news, our northern neighbor Pleasant View, is taking a long look at getting aboard the economic development bandwagon:
“We want to encourage nice development,” said Councilman Kevin Bailey. He would like to see more restaurants in Pleasant View, as well as big box stores and offices.Hooray for Big Box Stores. That's what we call "nice development!" Just what that sleepy little residential community needs. Bring on the Big Box Stores, we say. Bring in the Big-Gummint central planners and schemers, too. We wonder which lovely Weber County community will be next to redraft their business plan to mimic the Riverdale, Utah model, and pave over their entire town with asphalt. Huntsville, Perhaps? We can only hope!
Somewhere in the background we seem to hear the bleating of lambs being led off to slaughter.
UDVA promoted to "cabinet" status. As a military veteran ourself, we are happy to read this morning that our former Ogden High School classmate Terry Schow's State Department of Veteran's affairs has been "kicked upstairs" to governor's cabinet level status. Terry and his dedicated crew have labored long and hard to browbeat the state legislature into doing the right thing, i.e., building a Veteran's Home in Weber County. Much to our encouragement, we are delighted to read that Terry and his staff will be able to bend the governor's ear about this, and various other important veterans' issues, from an office "right down the hall" from Chief State Executive Jon Huntsman's sumptuous office "digs."
Take it away, gentle readers.
Talk about any of the above; or feel free to start up a topic all your own.
56 comments:
Rudi:
Your including a River Project item in this morning's potpourri allows me to link to this story in today's Salt Lake Tribune:
No eminent domain for Market Street
Redevelopment board's 3-3 vote means the city won't kick holdouts out of property for project
By Cathy McKitrick
SOUTH SALT LAKE - In spite of the efforts of some to tout the positive benefits of the eminent domain, a 3-3 vote of the Redevelopment Agency (RDA) board axed its use in the mixed-use Market Street urban renewal project.
The debate heated up as Redevelopment Agency board members - the City Council serving in that role - held polarized opinions about the weighty tool whereby a government entity can force property owners to sell against their will.
"I think it sends a good message to the community that an RDA project can be done without that threat," said Councilman Shane Siwik.
One of South Salt Lake's Councilman, a Bill Anderson, argued that using eminent domain powers to force the reluctant to sell would actually be a benefit to the landowners because of tax benefits that kick in when you are paid for land taken by eminent domain.
Property owners in the project area, however, seemed to think differently. From the story:
At least one property owner breathed a sigh of relief.
"I'm glad to not have that hanging over our heads," said Shannon Valdez, owner of Central Collision, a thriving business within the project's boundaries.
I feel sorry for Councilman Anderson. How frustrating it must be as a city official to have to deal with people so dim witted that they cannot see the advantages of their being forced by the city to sell property they don't want to sell, and to close their successful businesses that they don't want to close, just so someone else can open a new and different business on the property they are being forced to sell. Where the devil do these people who want to keep their own land and continue to operate their own businesses think they are? America? Why can't they understand that Councilman Anderson knows better than they do what should be done with their property and their businesses?
I think Councilman Anderson needs a raise to compensate him for having to deal with people like that.
Happily, such things could never happen here in Junction City....
Kudos to Salt Lake for recognizing the rights of indivuals to own property.
OGDEN TAKE NOTE since you have an inclination to copy everything that all the other governments are trying to force on their citizens.
There could be less crime here in the city if the mayor would just get rid of the ticket quota system, and have our officers patrol the neighborhoods. How hard is that godfrey? OH wait a minute, I now realize that patrolling the neighborhoods does not generate revenue for the city. It only helps to control crime.
So godfrey write those tickets to the guys that got shot. This will help pay for the police dept.
Thanks for the link, Curmudgeon.
Reading the SL-Trib article we find that an attorney named Craig Smith is representing the South Salt Lake City RDA.
Going back to the Std-Ex article concerning Pleasant View, and the interest of some government officials are expressing in bringing forth the steel glove of government to development of that community, we also find an attorney named Craig Smith mentioned; and we'll go out on a limb and take a wild guess that we're probably talking about the same guy.
With respect to the City of Pleasant View, he's making a sales pitch for the adoption of a local RDA.
In S.Salt Lake, his firm is already retained by the city RDA, and he's now earning fees putting the screws to local property owners.
Makes for a full employment economy for legal shysters and other Big Schemer riff-raff... fer sher...
Watch your backs, Pleasant View property owners.
Exactly right, Another Great Idea.
Not only that, urban gang control is very labor-intensive and thus costly, compared with other police work, and the ticket quota setup is a cash cow.
Why should our city waste money on subsidizing a police force that can't even cover its own expenses?
Hey I have a great Idea, Lets hire robo cop and privatize the police.
After watching the breaking news yesterday afternoon, I thought to myself: "I bet the main post on the WCF will somehow blame Godfrey for the shooting". But then, I thought: "No, surely not even they will resort to such a crass level". I guess I was wrong again.
Wow, I know many of you really, really, really, really (is that enough reallys?) do not like this guy, but you might get some of us to actually start listening to you if your complaints weren't so dubious and vitriolic.
If the police department is understaffed, then we certainly have a problem, but to put the blame on the Mayor for this one incident is just not right. I guess this means he gets all the credit for Ogden's low homocide rate this year, right?
Was yesterday's fire on the bench at 9th St. his fault as well?
Better yet. Lets hire our own Mayor! Wait a minute some one already has. Look at where he is or is getting all the campaign money. Tell me he didn't sell the office to the one that has the best plan or the most money. This is just a shame. Shame on you mayor.
I don't know if the fire was his fault anymore than the fire on the candy factory was his fault.
What think ye now.
It came as no surprise that the posters on this blog would left handed link Godfrey to yesterday's shooting. The thing is, NO amount of police and patroling would have prevented that. The sadness is added to as I recall the unfortunate worker who fell to his death at the Junction, and that was linked to Godfrey.
What's wrong with some of you people? Lack of brains. Lack of logic. Or do those even apply. Are you so biasdly obsessed with this guy that that's all you think of, attempting to destroy his every move?
I guess that's why you'll find comfort in posting undre some seudo name instead of staking your own cliam in the world.
Easy Brutus,
Good to have you posting. If you can justify the quota system, I'm all ears. There are so many ways to evaluate and manage our police force efficiently. Especially so with the latest in technology. Realtime GPS, audio, video monitoring can keep cops honest and effective.
Please resist the temptation to characterize all posters here by the style of a couple of unique individuals. It's that same "naysayer-blogger" generalization line that gets so old and completely dilutes your point of view.
Let's dissect the issues down to the elements and facts. Alittle humor and ridicule of public figures is o.k. with me. Public figures choose to put themselves out there so they can take it.
Brutus and Tell It Like It Is:
Can't argue with you that sometimes attempts to link the Mayor to some news story or another get pretty bizzare and stretch reasonableness to the breaking point. [The man who died on the construction job is a good example.]
On the other hand, if it is, as Rudi reports from conversations with Ogden's gang squad, that the gang unit is understaffed, then it seems reasonable to me that a front page story about a gang-related shooting on Ogden's streets could... maybe even should... raise questions about city policy and how it relates to police staffing, etc. And I notice neither of you addressed that matter, which was a substantive one. You could argue that Rudi's wrong about that, that staffing levels are adequate, etc. But you didn't. That particular issue does not seem unreasonable to raise in the wake of today's headline news.
But you're right: some of the attempt to link the Mayor to unfortunate events goes well beyond reason. It's the flip side, I guess, of those who seem to think it helps their cause [the retirement of the Mayor] to criticize everything he advocates and to refuse to concede that he's done anything good for Ogden, when clearly he has. I'd argue the reverse: that that kind of unreasoning criticism weakens the argument against his re-election rather than strengthens it.
Someone can think, as I do, that the Mayor has done some good things for Ogden... the rebranding of the City as an Outdoors Hub when the high tec rebranding didn't work, for example; and his committing significant city resources to trails development and improvement, particularly but not exclusively, the river parkway trail system; and his good and very important work promoting the Frontrunner and the tax vote that made it possible right from the first --- while concluding that on balance those pluses are outweighed by his negatives and that it would be best for Ogden if he were not returned for a third term. That's pretty much where I am on the matter of his re-election. Which, as I said, does not require that I ignore what he's done well, or that I try to link him to every bit of bad news that appears in the SE.
It is interesting that as soon as someone says something about Ogden having too big a government and then you look at the numbers, it is only because they have more police and firemen by ratio than comparable cities.
Yet the majority of the people posting on this site
will shout Ogden's government is too big. Then you have shooting. And the chorus shouts we want more police and less ticket.
Of course if we had a better tax base and higher property values, we could afford more police and might even see some of the lower-income troublemakers relocate to other places. But no one seems to have an idea of how to do that. So instead they just complain about any idea.
We might have better schools and water pressure too.
So instead of just complaining about crap, why don't you come up with some ideas? You don't want to sell the park. Everyone gets that. You don't want a gondola through town. Fine. You don't want a wind tunnel or a surf wave. I think you are stuck with that for while judging by the number of people who seem to be using it.
So great, here's where we stand. We have train that will be coming here from SLC next summer. We have Historic 25th Street that has some charm but won't soon compete with Park City as a tourist pull. We have the Junction which is off to a strong start, but only time will tell. So tell me why will Front Runner bring people to O-town? The odds are there will be just as many people getting on the train to go to the gateway or some other destination and spend their money there. I don't think people will ride it to hike our trails, that while nice, are not the "crown jewel" they are made out to be.
Farmington will soon be building their quaint little downtown gateway-styled center. Kimbell Junction has even created a strong economic center one block off of the freaking freeway. Snowbasin is slated to have 2500 condos and a golf course in the near future.
So is Ogden role to become the service community to all of the other thriving economic centers? Is the status quo good enough for everyone?
Where are the ideas?
The only one I've heard is trolley system...sounds like a great idea. Everyone can hop on it to catch the bus that takes them up to Snowbasin to change sheets.
I get it, the gondola idea isn't your answer, but what is???
Tec,
Thanks for the note. Let me be clear, I am not characterizing all posters here. I have attempted to be clear that I was responding to the main "post" or article on the main page -- not the comments. The comments are often balanced and nuanced -- I wish I had the time to read through them everyday (As you can tell, I've had some time on my hands this week!)
I am not here to defend the quota system (nor would I want to), but I'd love to hear your and others real concerns about Ogden's police. What are the main problems? What is working? This is why I started reading this forum: to get diverse, thoughtful opinions. I don't pretend to have any answers.
My complaint is that what you call "a little humor and ridicule" really detracts from what could be a really valuable and useful forum. Further, you will note that I have never written the phrase "naysayer," it is precisely this language that I want to get away from.
I appreciate good satire like anyone else, and I am know public figures can take it just fine. I am not worried about their egos, I am worried about the state of public discourse. Forums like these are great in quickly disseminating information and opinions, but this forum (again, I am NOT saying this is ALWAYS true) has simply been too kneejerk in its reactions, too vitriolic in its writings and too superficial in its reasoning much of the time.
While the comments are often interesting and informative reading, the "front-page" articles often are not -- other than in identifying key stories.
Most appear happy with this Forum and what seems to be a anti-Godfrey perspective with a strong satirical bent... and that is fine. I just represent one reader who doesn't find that strategy all that useful.
But, hey, I'm clearly in the minority and I don't have to read it, and I suppose most of you would be appreciative if I just stopped posting altogether.
I agree with Brutus. There's no friggin' way that Godfrey can be blamed for short-staffing the OPD gang unit. It's all Greiner's fault!
You say there are no ideas here? Here are two.
Safeguard the benches, like California has safeguarded their coastline. The economic benefits will follow, to say nothing of the quality of life benefits.
Next, reduce regulation. Downtown Ogden is both heavily regulated and heavily taxed. When it was booming, it was neither. Get it?
You say there are no ideas here, but there are two tried and true ones.
As far as big government, other western communities of comparable size do not have the large administrative staff we have, that has to tax, regulate, spend, and borrow to justify its existence. Get it?
Can you Godfreyites read this? What do you think? It seems to me that it is you who are the truly uncreative naysayers.
Curm
Concerning my lack of substantive comments -- you're right. In reading the last post I really sound like an old..well...curmudgeon who is simply chastising other's opinions and writing style. I really don't know enough about the Ogden police to make an informed opinion.
I think I have said enough about my criticisms of the forum and it's time that I just sit back and learn and I'll comment again when I have something more useful to say. (Please understand my sincerity here -- I am not being sarcastic)
Thanks for your thoughtful posts. I am off to (gasp!) the Junction to watch Harry Potter.
Can't Have It Both Ways:
You better check your mail. You must have not gotten the memo. The Mayor himself is now a Naysayer, and is on record as saying the Peterson/Gondola/Gondola proposal was not a viable plan right from its inception. You need to make sure you know what the party line is if you're going to spread it.
You wrote: Yet the majority of the people posting on this site will shout Ogden's government is too big. Then you have shooting. And the chorus shouts we want more police and less ticket.
You need to at least consider this possibility: that the issue is not necessarily the absolute numbers employed by Ogden, but the distribution of those jobs. It is certainly possible that Ogden has too many people working in one area, an is significantly understaffed in another. I don't know if that's so, but it's possible. And if the police working in the gangs unit think they are seriously understaffed, that matter is certainly worth some discussion and probing.
You wrote: Of course if we had a better tax base and higher property values, we could afford more police and might even see some of the lower-income troublemakers relocate to other places. But no one seems to have an idea of how to do that. So instead they just complain about any idea.
Sigh. Another reiteration of the "naysayers" claim. It's really getting old. Have you noticed that property values in Ogden have risen not insignificantly over the past couple of years? The Mayor's staff and supporters have been touting that as evidence that his revival plans are working. As someone once said, "you can't have it both ways." You can't claim that Ogden is in the middle of a significant business and property values recovery, and then complain that nobody has any ideas how to improve the business climate in Ogden or increase property values.
As for "just complain[ing] about any idea" --- well, when someone throws out an "idea" with a vanishingly low probability of succeeding [like the gondola/gondola sell the parks scheme which even the Mayor now concedes was not feasible], you bet people are going to criticize it. What are you suggesting? That no matter how bizzare and improbable an idea is, no one should criticize it because that's naysaying? The problem was not that some suggested this hugely expensive gondola/gondola sell the parks idea. The problem was that its advocates, including the Mayor, in well over two years of touting it, were never able to produce any evidence that it was feasible or had a reasonable chance of succeeding.
You wrote: Where are the ideas?
The only one I've heard is trolley system...sounds like a great idea. Everyone can hop on it to catch the bus that takes them up to Snowbasin to change sheets.
Can't Have It Both Ways: have you ever bothered to look at the literature on how much investment rail transit in medium sized cities has generated? [Couple of billion in Portland, a mid-sized city. Billion. With a B.] Seems to me a proven technology for generating investment, development and business in mid-sized cities. [Number of cities in the US in which flatland lengthy urban gondolas have generated any significant pole-side investment? None.]
You want to argue that it isn't a suitable option for Ogden, that streetcars won't have the same impact here, have at it. But at least before you begin that discussion inform yourself of the evidence that is out there, and be prepared to offer reasons why you find it un-convincing. You didn't begin to do that.
You also seem to be looking for a magic bullet, one multi-million dollar grand project that will fix it all. Consider... at least consider... the possibility that a boom or bust one shot silver bullet solution may not be the wisest one to seek. The smaller projects which encourage sustainable growth might work better for Ogden.
We have already in place several RDA redevelopment projects in Ogden. Some on 25th Street. The Star Noodle property has been sold and will be redeveloped. The Windsor Hotel/flophouse ditto. The condos now at last all sold [though the attached business properties still have a lot of vacancies.] We have the Junction development only partially completed, and new projects recently announced for that... e.g. Mr. Reid's new condo block. We have the first phase of the River Project under way ... at last... with the breaking ground on the Bingham Cyclery building. And this time next year Frontrunner will be here. Hardly seems we are standing still. Hardly seems like a huge mega million gamble with public money on a wholly unproven technology as a generator of urban development [long flatland gondola not going to Snow Basin] is necessary to "save" Ogden.
You're right that FR rail can, and will, carry people from Ogden to SLC for entertainment, etc. But, got news for you, SLC already draws a lot of Ogdenites to it for that reason: plays, public events, speakers programs, major league sports. At least consider this possibility: that if Ogden becomes a desirable living destination for mid-career people in SLC [thanks to Frontrunner], Ogden may develop enough of a potential audience for some of the kinds of things that people --- like me and Mrs. Curmudgeon --- now drive all the way to SLC to attend that recreational and entertainment options here may increase.
Think about it anyway.
And check your mail. The Mayor's a naysayer now too.
Brutus:
Enjoy the flick. [Don't believe Professor Umbridge. Volemort did it.]
"Brutus said...
Tec,
"Thanks for the note. Let me be clear, I am not characterizing all posters here. I have attempted to be clear that I was responding to the main "post" or article on the main page -- not the comments. The comments are often balanced and nuanced -- I wish I had the time to read through them everyday (As you can tell, I've had some time on my hands this week!)"
You're new here Brutus (obviously) and plainly unfamiliar with how discussion blogs work in the blogosphere.
Here's the drill:
1)The blogmeister puts up a crabby article, raising issues in cranky style.
2) After that our readers decide what to talk about.
3) In the normal course of events, the ensuing discussion either rotates on the issues your blogmeister presented... or reels off into other subjects.
4) ultimately the discussion gets around to finding "the truth."
You're right, Brutus. You need to fall back and keep mum... unless and until you've done a little historical research on the readily-accessible articles and reader comments that have been posted here within the past two years and 2 months. After you've done that you should definitely contribute to the discussion.
By the way, Brutus, Isn't your screen name modeled after the Roman Senator who first stuck a dagger into Julius Caesar, shortly before his murder by the rest of the Roman Senators -- the Roman Republican Emperor whom Boss Godfrey emulates -- when he invokes the constant"Ogden City is a Republic/I'm the decider" meme?"
Hmmm?
Hooboy!
Rudy:
Caesar had it coming.
Rudi:
I kind of liked the nic "Brutus." And didn't we have a "Cato" posting here not long ago? Talk about drawing on American tradition.... During the run-up to the Revolution, the papers were filled with letters signed by "Cato" and "Brutus" and "Demosthenes" and "Pericles" and such like. Those who posted in the blogs of their day... the colonial newspapers... very often chose names out of classical antiquity as their nics. So "Brutus" and "Cato" of Weber County are harking back to a very old American tradition. Kind of nice to see for this over-the-hill semi-retired historian of the Revolution.
"Caesar had it coming."
Indeed that's obviously true. Not only that, but:
"Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it." --G. Santayana
If he only had not crossed the Weber!
Curmudgdeon:
Our current "Brutus," "Cato" and other similar and soon-anticipated "poseurs" remain that.
As much as we may like the modern revival of these historical names...
Their historical antecedents will bristle and roll in their graves at the fraudulent misuse of their historical "names."
heheheh.
Lovely Sugarhouse in SLC is coming under the eminent domain gun. I sent some info to Rudi today.''Rudi, can you post all of the article or extrapolate some for the blog?
Who are these numbskulls that think every ironic or humorous remark is an ASSAULT?
Assault is not a seasoning...humor is.
Brutus and pals, get over it. Our streets would besafer if more cops had the time to actually patrol looking for criminals!
Also, they could catch criminals and render assistance if their patrol cars didn't break down!
curm....no where did I say that the gondola was the answer...if fact I clearly acknowledged that it was not a point worth discussing anymore. So I won't because I didn't give a rats ass about it in the first place.
But Smart Growth says, ask questions so I asked if not the gondola then what? But see, the problem I see is that when some asks a question, they are seen as the enemy. Nor did I say anything about the Mayor or being a supporter of his policies. You sure read a lot into things.
How is this community going to fit in to the Wasatch front economic scheme in the long run?
A trolley sounds great. Hopefully it will spur this town to new great heights when everyone comes to put taco stands around the trolley stops. Ogden is not Portland or Little Rock sir. And while I'm all for a Trolley, I'm a bit skeptical that it is the economic engine say it is in a city of 78,000. (Notice I didn't say but I'd rather have a gondola)
Curm consider this, the only reason Ogden property values are going up is because it became one of the cheapest places in the country to buy property. It lagged behind everywhere else, and in fact, still hasn't caught up. It has little to do with anything else. The Star Noodle was bought and is not being redeveloped. It is being held by someone hoping that prices increase to average so they can sell it again.
Amer Sports came here because it was cheap....and said so in the SL Trib.
And Danny, Safe guard the benches and economic benefits will follow...the bench has been left alone for since the 70's except for the Halls little development. Where is the economic benefit??? Get it? I'm all for safe guarding the benches, but where's the money you speak of. Downtown regulated and taxed? Do you have a business downtown? I do. So far I haven't been regulated and taxed anymore than anywhere else. Get it? And finally, go look at staffing number for comparable cities before spewing b.s. Get it? I doubt you do.
See sensible people can discuss these things without it being about the Mayor or whatever personal grudge they have. See 20 years from now when I still have my business downtown Ogden it won't be about the Mayor (now or then), it will be about the community...as it should be now.
Can't Have it Both Ways:
My apologies. It did seem to me you were parroting the "naysayer" meme and that's been a major element of the Mayor and his gondola-supports for over two years now. So I jumped to a conclusion about your affiliation with them which, evidently, was a wrong conclusion to jump to. My apologies.
You wrote: Ogden is not Portland or Little Rock sir. And while I'm all for a Trolley, I'm a bit skeptical that it is the economic engine say it is in a city of 78,000. Fair enough, but remember the transit studies are based on serving the needs of Ogden 6 to 10 years down the road, the needs of its projected population then.
You wrote: Curm consider this, the only reason Ogden property values are going up is because it became one of the cheapest places in the country to buy property. It lagged behind everywhere else, and in fact, still hasn't caught up.
Well, then we have to explain why, if Ogden values trailed the rest of the state for so long, recently they have begun to catch up. I'd say the evidence suggests that Frontrunner's coming has played a not unimportant role in that, as well as the general prosperity in the state. I don't see that falling off, or any reason it should, for the forseeable future. Do you?
Amer Sports listed lower cost of doing business as one of the three reasons it chose Ogden. The other two were affordable housing for its employees [agreed, a variation on "lower costs"] and easy access, in half an hour or so, to world class skiing, to water sports venues, to mountain hiking, climbing and biking terrain. That last element isn't going to go away and will continue to be a draw, I think, over time.
You wrote: the bench has been left alone for since the 70's except for the Halls little development. Where is the economic benefit? Sorry, but on this we disagree. The benches east of Ogden have been heavily developed except for the public owned lands and a very few other smaller parcels. Or so it seems to me. [Remember, the golf course at Mt. Ogden Park is development.]
Again, please accept my apologies for jumping to an unwarranted conclusion. It's been a long fight over the park sale and gondola. Going to take a while, probably, to get past that. But I'm working on it.
"If not the gondola, what then?".
Really? WHAT would a gondola gliding down Harrison Blvd to WSU (somewhere) do for the economic boom in Ogden?
How can businesses prosper when their potential customers are gliding OVER their shops unable to disembark?
Trolleys have been proven to generate businesses in every town like Ogden. Business springs up along the trolley routes. Too bad you didn't attend the wonderful opportunities to hear Jeffrey....., the last name escapes me right now, who is THE foremost authority (with a resume that runs a couple pages) in America!
A gondola wouldn't do that. It's a gimmick.
Now, if Peterson can finagle some land at the top of 36th or close by and HE builds his gondola up to Malan's....see earlier threads on the logistics of doing that to a roadless place, then he should do it. Hooray!!
And, if Peterson WILL do that on his own nickel...let him!
Frankly at the turn of the last century, the Malan's took visitors up to Malan's in a horse drawn buggy. The riders would then picnic up there, maybe enjoy the lovely sunset on the lake and come back down. I understand there was a 'hotel' of sorts up there. One wouldn't be necessary. Just enjoying the natural beauty and scenery would be a draw.
I like the idea of riding up there in a surrey with fringe on top...picnicing, etc.
Charming, nostalgic and different.
But, ugly towers down 23rd and Harrison and gondolas gliding slowly over peoples' homes and yards is not a sure-fire economic solution.
What solution anyway? People and businesses are coming to Ogden WITHOUT a gondola tower in sight.
BTW, the gondola cars that Geigers' and Godfrey displayed here are small, unheated in winter and no AC in summer!
Maybe they could be billed as saunas in the summer?
CHIBW said:
"The only one I've heard is trolley system...sounds like a great idea. Everyone can hop on it to catch the bus that takes them up to Snowbasin to change sheets."
As if the trolley system is just some idea on par with other lame ideas like a gondola system.
You might want to study up a little to find that there are virtually NO urban gondola systems in the whole world. Certainly not a single one serving the terrain and population layout that we have in Ogden.
Trolley systems are deployed in thousands of cities of all sizes worldwide. 3rd world dives such as Istanbul(currently spending 3 billion dollars on a subway system)and others. UTA says we should get with it. Only our glorious mayor naysayed us into a 2 year delay on transit progress.
Now that they have built the Junction and my favorite attraction, the flowrider, I am going downtown more in a week than I did in a previous year. Build the damn streetcar so I can run home for lunch and a rip between flow sessions.
Did Mayor Godfrey get the shooters licence plate nubmbers and call them in to the Chief Senator Coward? I guess the shooters must have been a supporter of the administration.
Curm,
glad you picked up on the historic character of "brutus," and "cato." While I can't speak for Brutus, I did, after seeing his/her post decide to post using Cato.
Brutus,
ignore Rudi's suggestion that you keep mum. While Rudi may be correct that Godfrey comes across as Ceaser in Ogden, Rudi sometimes comes across as Caeser on this blog - but I guess it is his blog after all. Anyway, the blog is much more interesting when there are a variety of (thoughtful) opinions being expressed, rather than everyone singing the same tune and when the only opposing views are the Geiger's unreasoned posts.
Lastly, probably should've picked a different "name" this time since Cato and Brutus were on the same side in opposing the constitution and from what I've read of your positions on Godfrey etc., we don't have many positions in common.
I'll second that Cato, that Brutus not get turned away by Rudi's sometimes broad dismissals. Rudi's all heart and will prime the fires for the sake of lively banter. We need more folks to balance the appearance of a mob rule here. Brutus you are welcome by me for your ability to express a thought and read responses.
Ahem! Here is the advice we gave to "Brutus" upthread:
"You're right, Brutus.
You need to fall back and keep mum...
unless and until:
1) you've done a little historical research on the readily-accessible articles and reader comments that have been posted here within the past two years and 2 months.
2) After you're done with that you should definitely contribute to the discussion."
That's what we said. Frankly we're sick and tired of repeating ourselves over and over again, when we (Brutus included) have this marvellous 26 month historical documentation at our very WCF fingertips.
All Brutus needs to do is demonstrate good blog netiquette, and read up on the full discussion before he leaps to knee-jerk accusations and false conclusions.
Before he does that process, he's simply pissing in the wind.
Did anyone catch the article on p. B8 of the Sltrib? "Lobbyists sneak in spending". And whose mug is on there, but our own fine candidate, Neil Hansen. Apparently lobbyists filed amended returns to indicated that a host of legislators recieved additional gifts not originally reported.
Hansen's amendment: Jazz Tickets.
I'm beginning to have second thoughts about Hansen. Would anyone here care to defend him?
Native:
On this? No. My view is that state legislators ought to accept nothing... not so much as a cup of coffee... from those with business before them or those representing those with business before them.
But let us remember what this article was about: lobbyists amending earlier reports to add some spending that had not been reported earlier. The only reason Hansen's name was there is because he happened to be one of those six or eight whose treats were reported in the amended reports. Most members of the legislature were "reported" as receiving treats... mostly meals or Jazz tix or free golf rounds and such like... in the earlier reports.
The Republican majority has repeatedly, overwhelmingly voted "nay" on all Democratic attempts to impose real reporting rules on lobbyist gifts, as well as limits on gifting with teeth to back the limits up. [Article in the SL Trib earlier this week reported that the AG [a Republican] said the latest Republican-sponsored and passed "lobby reform law" (politely so called) is so chaotic, muddled and full of "loopholes" that the AG thinks it is unenforceable.]
How has Hansen voted on the various Democratic lobbying reform bills --- the ones with teeth in them --- that came up over the last two sessions? I don't know. Ask him.
But I long ago... about age eleven or twelve I think... gave up expecting officials I liked to meet every one of my expectations, to agree with everyone of my views, and to act in every case as I would wish them to have acted. Do I wish Hansen had refused any and all lobbyist blandishments? Yes. Does that mean, on balance, I think he has done a poor job in the legislature or that I would refuse to vote for him? Absolutely not.
That phrase... "on balance"... is the key, I think. Recognizing that [candidate/officeholder] X has not agreed with me or done as I would have wished on every matter, on balance has he or she served the public well? If the answer is yes, they get my support. If it's no, they don't.
Alright Curm, I'll buy that. I'm a pragmatist too. And my expectations of politicians are not high, so I'll let it slide.
I guess I'm just concerned that I'm sensing a pattern here (how's that for nuanced?). With the trip to China, this, and then there was something else somewhere I read but I can't remember. It's all smallish peanuts compared to Godfrey outrages and prevarications.
So you see, Godfrey has done us a bit of a favor by coloring the world a warm, dim glow with his mad splashes. Keeps the idealists from getting the upper hand.
I just talked to Mayor Godfrey about this. He tells me "not to worry, gangstas are just brown-skinned people. When they kill each other that just saves us buying them a one way bus ticket out of town."
Hansen did not go on the China junket!
Please try to keep up.
Native
Ya, I caught that piece in the Trib this morning. They sure used a lousy picture of Hansen didn't they? Do you suppose it was intentional? It seems, if memory serves me, that Hansen is a lot better looking than that pic implied. In fact he seems to have that Peter Carroon look. Hopefully he has Carroon's political chops as well.
I didn't see anything in the article that indicted Hansen or any of the other Legislators they mentioned, other than they were all dipping into that lobbyist trough for Jazz tickets and free grub. I do find that a bit distasteful. Unfortunately our system works that way and virtually every member of the Utah Legislature does it, which still don't make it any more palatable to me.
The headline didn't seem to fit the story. It seems the headline actually contradicted the story as it is about filing amended public disclosures. Not too sure how you get "sneaky" out of that. But even if you do find it "sneaky", it still did not reflect on Hansen or the other politicians mentioned as they have nothing to do with the lobbyist reporting to begin with. The story was about lobbyist reporting, not crooked politicians trying to get over on the public.
Now if you want to talk "sneaky" politicians circumventing the law and getting over on the public, how about Godfrey and his entire staff breaking the State Law daily with their refusal to file the mandated conflict of interest disclosures. That's right, the state law requires all elected officials and top administrators to file conflict of interest forms. To date, and for the last seven years, Godfrey and his circle of empty suits have never even filed one lousy report amongst the entire sorry assed group. Now that's sneaky if you ask me!
I do believe that Hansen has the one major thing that has been missing in the Ogden mayor's office for seven years now. It's called Integrity, and even tho the Little Lord has publicly proclaimed his over abundance of it, the truth is he doesn't have enough to fill a gnat's ass. In fact Godfrey's character is the total antithesis of integrity and honor!
I'm not sure that is the "defense" of Hansen you were looking for, but to me he would make a much better mayor than Godfrey on that point alone.
I am reserving my opinion of Hansen until I see what he really stands for (other than being honest). What does he propose to do with the crumbling infastructure? What does he intend to do about the abismal way the city has been treating the public safety empoyees? What is he going to do about the massive $95 million dollar debt that Godfrey has run up? How will he handle all of these different businesses that Ogden Inc. now owns? Who will he hire as Chief of Police? Stuff that really matters in running a city.
I think another real big thing in Hansen's favor is his turning down this China boondogle that his fellow legislators are currently on. His stance seems to show that he at least has some respect for the public's money.
I think I'll take Brutus up on this one. First a little background. Just 1 or 2 years agos,(Godfrey and Greiner at the helm) a small boy was killed by a stray bullet while playing in Monroe Park. A bullet fired by a gang member at another gang member. It's a fact that gang crime as well as numbers have steadily increased throughout lying little matty's time as mayor, often very violent. This problem has steadily risen from the late eighties to present.
Being mayor, ultimately requires accepting responsibily, he set his priorities and this represents a very greivous error in judgement when looking at law enforcement priorities. Ticket quotas and the munincipal justice court as a source of revenues did in fact have priority over the gang unit. He clearly took his eye off the ball. What good is all this super deficit spending (debt under the guise of ecconomic development) when you can't control the crime in your streets. The number one responsibility of his office is to deliver sevices to the people of Ogden, first on anyones list would be police protection. By making ecconomic development,ticket quotas as a source of funding and spending city funds promoting the gondola to nowhere, all money that could have gone to crime prevention, including his discretionary budget, he is somewhat directly responsible for that shooting, and I would think even he would have to aggree, the buck stops here.
Can't Have It Both Ways said:
So instead of just complaining about crap, why don't you come up with some ideas? You don't want to sell the park. Everyone gets that. You don't want a gondola through town. Fine. You don't want a wind tunnel or a surf wave. I think you are stuck with that for while judging by the number of people who seem to be using it.
...
Where are the ideas?
The only one I've heard is trolley system...sounds like a great idea. Everyone can hop on it to catch the bus that takes them up to Snowbasin to change sheets.
---
I've posted these sort of ideas before. My most recent post on this subject was just a couple of weeks ago. I try not to repeat myself too much.
Yes, there are those of us who have ideas here. A quick perusal of the blog over several days, or a look at the archives, will give you what you seek.
Don't be so quick to throw around "naysayer" accusations until you have some evidence to back your claim.
---
From the WCF Archives, June 29:
monotreme said...
Dan:
Ironic, isn't it, that all of us stand accused of being CAVEs when in fact, we (in general) love Ogden, and want others to see what a great place it is.
I'm still working on a long-standing project to get family and friends to move out here.
Think of what a wonderful place this could be if we had a mercado or plaza mayor at 24th and Monroe; frequent streetcars running the downtown-to-McKay-Dee corridor; and a pedestrian mall stretching from Union Station, and turning north up Grant to the Junction.
You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. I hope one day the Mayor will join us, and Ogden can live as one.
June 29, 2007 10:33 AM
Ohhh, good sweet Jesus Lord:
Brutus and Cheers, Geigers and Onions -- Do you really think we are all that stupid? OK, many of the posted minions here are without the cognizant skills necessary to understand that we have won not shit, no nothing, nada, zero, zilcho; that Lying Little Matty Gondola Godfrey is merely election posturing; that there is no salvation until Teeny Matty abdicates his throne and we are left to deal with the leftovers? And, in the previous thread, I present to you: Squirrel Patrol Alert! Squirrel Patrol Alert! Captain Geiger was (is) in the house! I thought Daddy told you to stay away, for your own good health.
Native:
Why are you complaining lobbyists taken officials to Jazz games?
You should be complaining about your tax money given to lobbyists.
That’s what Republicans do!
They take from the poor and give to themselves.
They meaning Republican Mayor Godfrey, gave $35.000.00 to lobbyists last year. All three current Republican County Commissioners gave $120.000.00 of your tax dollars to Lobbyists last year. Those Lobbyists contribute to their campaigns. That’s the culture of legalized corruption that these so-called Christians do with your money.
Democrat:
Yes, it's what Republicans do. Sadly, it is also what Democrats do. My party... MY party... has renegged on most [not all, but most] of the promises made in the last election that all earmarks, for example, would be identified by who inserted them into pending bills, and that it would be done early enough in the process that everyone would know who inserted what pork before the bill was debated. Didn't do it. Passed a procedural rule saying they would. Then didn't. MY party.
Sadly, way too often, at every level, no matter which party is in power, we end up with the best government money can buy. I grant you the feeding frenzy under the Bush administration went far beyond the pig-at-the-trough standard that had usually prevailed at the federal level [think Jack Abrahmov and Tom Delay and the K-Street Project], but it's just flat wrong to suggest it's only the Republicans who have their hands out to lobbyists and who do their bidding in return.
The newly-elected democrats in the House, about 35 or so, who ran on such promises are pushing for the House Democrats to make good their word, but old pork-meisters, like Byrd of Virginia [and many other committee chairmen] are resisting, and they are powerful.
What we ought to be doing here at least is pushing from the bottom. Wouldn't it be great to wake up some morning and find an angry and powerful press release in the SE from the Chair of the Weber County Democrats demanding that the Utah legislature ban accepting anything... not so much as a cup of coffee... from anyone with business before the house, or representing anyone with business before the house. Not so much as a cup of coffee! Now there's a campaign plank with some traction.
But I don't expect to see anything like that anytime soon. The Weber County Democrats, sadly, don't much like making much noise about much of anything these days. I've worked for Democratic parties in four states now, and I have never seen a local Democratic party as quiescent, as docile and as afraid to make noise about anything as the Weber County Democrats. It's not like we have a lot to lose, guys. With a few local exceptions [Hansen, Shurtlif], we're getting our butts pounded anyway. We hold at the moment no county offices, for example. Let's make a little noise. Let's stir things up a little. We're Democrats for gawd's sake.
Sigh....
Another gang related shooting.
Time for me to remind all the law and order drones that much of this activity could be eliminated by lifting drug prohibition. Whether these fools were involved in drugs(likely) or not prohibition provides the grease to turn their wheels. There would be NO income or worthy activity for these thugs if there were fewer illicit sources of income for them. In short, they would have to get a job or land themselves in prison another way. Unfortunately, we are going on three generations under prohibition so these little babies were born into a life of illicit behavior. There are hundreds of thousands of underworld kids now in this country brought up by parents and relatives who are involved in and passing on the tools of the trade. Nothing short of complete repeal of the drug war will allow us a fresh start.
Any takers to justify the continuance of this mess.
An interesting news story in today's Standard. So one of the Utah Legislature's token Democrats is trying to make a name for himself. Talk about beating a dead horse. I thought this issue was settled by the State. Although I don’t particularly care for how things have gone down and the way the Mayor does business, why keep going back to this? Will this be run through every level of government until the City is required to return the money? Will no one be happy until the $900K is returned? Nice political stunt. Curm, is this what you consider making a little noise? Is this the La Follette of today's politics? Talk about progressive.
TO: can't have it both ways:
We've preserved the benches, and that's why people are noticing, and coming, or haven't you noticed? Yes, it's working.
As far as taxes, regulation, and city staffing, we are over taxed, over regulated, and over staffed. I've been on panels that oversee such things for the city over the years, and so I do know, unlike you.
This has resulted in economic stagnation, and low real estate prices, which are also now drawing people, as you say. Had we reduced taxes and regulation years ago, we would not have had the stagnation we have.
As far as you trying to give yourself credibility by saying you are a downtown businessman, it doesn't work. If you are a new downtown Ogden businessman (and I suspect you are Bob Geiger) then this explains why you don't know what you are talking about. If you are a longtime downtown businessman then about all you can say is you've kept your head above water for years and haven't grown at all – so you are hardly credible regarding business issues.
So tell me, now do you finally get it?
Tec - as far as eliminating drug prohibition, now that is something we really agree on.
As far as gang violence and police budgets go, this mayor, and the lift ogden off key, chorus, made that an issue in their early gatherings and promotions. They in fact wove that into a fabric they called "the downward spiral", with the gondola being the nessisary solution to all Ogden's ills. I reference that to point out that lying little matty was very much aware of the gang, crime and violence, and still misplaced all his priorities, he spent more than two years promoting some thing he has now stated was not feasable from the outset. Time and energy that could have been more wisely put to the actual responsibilities of his elected office.
Jill:
While I didn't [and don't] support the idea of Ogden having to return the 900K, I disagree that it's a dead horse issue. The state's willingness to do the audit and investigation suggests to me that the agency involved sees at the least a question that needs to be answered. I hope it's answered in Ogden's favor. If the request for an audit was truly frivolous I doubt the state would be conducting it just for the fun of it.
So, I hope it comes out in Ogden's favor, but if there is a question that needs answering, a commitment to accountability in government makes the look-see appropriate.
Maybe if you guys work hard enough, you can pin the Kennedy and King assassinations on Godfrey too. Ya'll are making about that much sense.
enough:
The auditor's office exists to look into matters like this when questions are raised and to resolve them. I would think the Mayor would want the audit done, and completed as rapidly as possible, to remove any doubt as to the propriety of his actions. I'm a little puzzled why that wasn't his reaction to learning the audit was going to happen. It should have been.
Have to tell you, all the whining about it, such as your post, can only get people asking "what have they got to hide? What are they afraid the audit will uncover?" Those are not questions the Mayor should want hanging out there as we begin election season.
He should have said something like "I believe strongly that all elected government should be fully accountable for its actions. I welcome the audit, and have instructed my staff to cooperate rapidly and fully. I hope the state Auditor finishes the audit and posts the results of it swiftly, which will establish that we have handled the grants properly. We have much of real importance for the future of Ogden to talk about in this coming campaign, and unwarranted distractions, like the questions that have been raised about the city grant, only take time from that."
But he didn't, did he?
I agree some have tried to pin things on the mayor that border on the ridiculous. But this is not one of them. I doubt if the Auditor's office thought the matter completely frivolous and without merit, they would be going forward with it.
So let's just sit back a bit and see what the Audit reveals, if anything. If it comes up clean, it will work in the Mayor's favor, after all.
Curm, if one of those entities was actually only masquerading as a legitimate 501-c-3 there's one hell of a tax liability gonna come up.
Bill:
I note you said "if." My point exactly. If. Which means we don't know yet. The audit's under way. Let's see what, if anything, turns up.
Well, now that it has been thrown out in public for the first time, I will say there is a mountain of proof that Godfrey, Geiger, Patterson, Harmer and Glasmann were in fact full participants in both the Kennedy and the King assasinations.
You don't for a minute think they came to their present criminal activities without previous experience do you?
The guns in both cases were traced to Godfrey and Harmer, and the pictures revealed in the lost Zapruder frames clearly show Glasmann talking to Patterson who were both acting as spotters for the real shooter - Bobby Geiger.
Come on people, wake up to the truth about these gangsters that are plotting world domination starting right here in River City. Their credo has long been - "first the bowling alley and next the world!"
When are we going to wake up to these actors? When are we going to start connecting the dots that they are so arrogantly leaving all about?
The writing is on the wall. Are we too blind to read it?
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