Electronic updates from two sources re tonight's ballot vote tallies
As announced in our previous article, we provide here two site feed links which, if all goes well, will allow our readers access to real-time results from both the Weber County and Ogden City vote counting rooms, allowing our gentle readers to monitor the tallies for all issues and candidates appearing on today's ballots:
Ogden City Municipal Election Feed. This is the page where our readers can monitor Ogden City Municipal Election candidate results.
Weber County Feed. Here our readers can check tallies on today's two county ballot measures at the top of the page (as well county-wide results for ALL Weber County races.)
With respect to the Ogden City Elections feed, you'll find in the left column the names of each candidate running for each contested municipal office, displayed with an assigned color and the current vote tally. In the right column you'll find a city map, laid out by consolidated voter districts. Once all ballots have been counted in any consolidated district, the district "lights up" on the map, in the color corresponding to that candidate who got the most votes. To save wear and tear on your mouse buttons, the page automatically refreshes at 30 second intervals, and displays the current results for each office, in a rotating loop.
As to the the Weber County feed, we don't yet know whether the tallies will automatically update, since the site's not yet up and running as of the time of this posting, and we thus haven't had a chance to preview it yet. If the page doesn't refresh automatically, however, our readers can simply manually click the "reload" or "refresh" buttons on their browsers to achieve a "fresh" page update.
Once again we invite our readers to pull up their barca-loungers®, and watch today's election results unfold. Orville Redenbacher products may be in order -- along with the draining a few "cool ones" perhaps.
We've set up these links to open new browser windows for each feed, while leaving our main Weber County Forum launch page open. Ideally our readers, (assuming they have sufficient system memory and bandwidth,) can open the two government pages while keeping our WCF launch page open, skipping back and forth between pages, and making comments as the votes are counted.
We'll go ahead and thank Ogden City and Weber County IT departments in advance, for providing we Emerald City political junkies what we hope will prove to be an interesting evening.
Don't forget to chime in with your comments, O gentle ones.
60 comments:
Rudi:
You wrote: Ideally our readers, (assuming they have sufficient system memory and bandwidth)...
Hey, was that a comment about my senior moments and waist size....?
With 1.48% of the vote in, Vouchers are losing 65% to 35%. Most of the votes reported so far are from outlying counties like Dagget, Juab and Kane. In no county reporting so far have vouchers won a majority of the vote. Still very early....
An hour and a half after the poll closings, and no data yet.
Something smells fishy here.
yes I agree someone should call the cops.
Oh no it must be voter fraud, maybe Mayor Godfrey snuck in and stole all of the voting equipment OR what if he kidnapped the election officials and is holding them ransom, oh no I bet he hired someone from Washington Terrace to do it for him, after they were done holding their election signs that is. Or wait maybe they are counting and recounting the votes of the 50!!! people that were on that list. I know lets be fair and just cast all of those 50!!! votes against Godfrey (Against Godfrey, not for anyone else, because you can't, or at least your not, really saying anything great about his opponent EXCEPT that she isn't him)
We need some hanging chads and we need them now!!!!!
Salt Lake City already has Mayor decision to Becker. Whats up with Ogden's? Two hours later?
I'm going to a movie....
Not a very good Ogden City link, Rudi. But I've discovered that if you edit the url address by changing the last number, you go to the various races.
1 = At Large Seat A
2 = At Large Seat C
3 = Mayor
4 = Muni 2 (uncontested)
5 = Muni 4
Oh, I see now, it cycles through the races. Fancy Schmancy.
John
two and a quarter hours and I think I can smell it too
only one comment on this blog....very fishy.
Does anyone know what the delay is?
It's 10:25 and KSL just reported Godfrey is ahead 51 to 49 with three of the sixteen precincts counted. They didn't say which precincts they were. Where are they getting their info from? The County site doesn't even come up and the Ogden site is zero's. What gives in the land of Oz?
Well, other counties and cities are reporting results, and state wide, with 67% of the votes in, not a single county in Utah... not one... has so far reported a majority in favor of vouchers. Not one. And there are only four counties so far not reporting any votes.
John:
Takes a while for the cemetery vote to come in....
Okay, folks. It seems that the data is now starting to come in from the Ogden City site.
The Weber County site, on th eother hand has now completely disappeared.
Blaine Johnson by 4 votes with all reporting! Ouch!
Godfrey won it by 196 votes.
Ardema lost it by 4 votes
Wicks won
Gouchner won
Stephenson just barely squeaked out a win.
The state site (http://electionresults.utah.gov/xmlData/Weber.html) appears to have some final results (although it is a bit unclear) with Godfrey, Wicks, Gochnour, and Johnson winning. Note that Johnson has only 4 more votes than Aardema. I guess we'll be waiting on the provisionals.
The winners from the Weber County election site, with 100% of the precincts reporting:
Matthew Godfrey 6339 50.58%
Susan E. Van Hooser 6143 49.01%
Caitlin K. Gochnour 2663 52.63%
Kent B. Petersen 2393 47.29%
Sheila P. Aardema 5963 49.87%
Blain H. Johnson 5967 49.90%
Royal S. Eccles 5637 46.49%
Amy L. Wicks 6467 53.33%
Whew!!!!!!
Note that the State site figures are different. They have Aardema now winning by 18 votes! Guess we'll have to wait 'til morning
rudi
The Weber site has Ardema winning by 18 votes!
Sheila P. Aardema 6083 49.96%
Blain H. Johnson 6065 49.82%
KUTV is reporting that Johnson lost. None of the vote totals for each candidate add up to what the county sayd the total vote counts were. What is going on here?
Do these numbers include the provisionl ballots?
Rudi:
The Ardeman/Johnson race difference seems well within the number of provisional ballots, so that one will have to wait, I suspect, for a final call until the provisional ballots are opened, evaluated and assigned.
Mr. Godfrey seems to have eeked out a narrow victory by fewer than 200 votes out of 16K cast, but it seems he has not carried a majority of the Council with him. If these results stand, Ogden will be looking at a kind of divided government over the next two years [until, possibly, the next Council elections]. Not necessarily a bad thing.
Ms. Van Hooser put up a hell of a fight. But the voters have spoken, it seems, and Godfrey has prevailed by a whisker. We can hope, I suppose, that the narrowness of his escape may engender some new behaviours in him, like respect for the Council, and a willingness to cooperate and compromise, inform and work with the Council for the common good. Perhaps he may even discover that you can catch more flies with sugar than vinegar. I'm not optimistic about that, but stranger things have happened when elected politicians stare into the abyss of a hairs-breadth victory.
We shall see.
Congratulations to Mr. Godfrey and Miss Wicks, both incumbents, and to Ms. Gochnour for her elevation to the Council. I await the final count in the Ardema/Johnson race with baited breath....
they're still counting
The Aardema/Johnson race, whoever has the small edge, seems well within the range of the number of provisional votes cast, and so the final count on this one is going to have to wait for a while until those provisional votes are dealt with, I think. Tough on the nerves for the two candidates. Be interesting to see how it comes out.
It ain't over until it's over!
Wait until the absentee and provisional votes are counted.
somethign smells fishy about those differing figure at the State reporting level and the county reporting level and the city level....much like those crime statistics!
Not a real good night for computer users, folks.
Seems we had a conjunction of computer problems in Weber County, coupled with a blogger maintenance outage over the past two hours.
We've now released a series of tonight's comments, which were backlogged.
Well, we know now why Mayor Godfrey's winged monkeys challenged 146 votes.
How many provisional votes are there?
Antilib:
If I recall correctly, it was President Bush who claimed a "mandate" after winning a whopping 53% of the popular vote in the last Presidential election.
And, if you actually count the number of challenges, it's 146, not 50.
I know you guys are having problems with counting, because you "lost" 70 or 80 armed robberies the last two years.
What the...
I have been told it's 1500 paper ballots that have yet to be counted.
I don't know the provenance of that number, so it may be completely inaccurate.
Even if it's right, it's hard to imagine (but not impossible) that those will break 850/650 to Van Hooser.
Hum:
There are very often discrepancies in the initial totals reported by state, county and local election officials. The final certified vote totals almost never are exactly the totals reported on election night. Reporting errors happen... yes, even with the Diebold machines, and sometimes they are enough to change results in very close races, but not very often. We'll have to see. But the mere fact that state, county and city are not reporting exactly the same numbers at the same time on election night is not uncommon.
What the...
We don't know the exact number of provisional ballots cast. 146 is the number of names on the challenge list, but not all of them necessarily voted... I know the Godfrey campaign had one name on the list of someone who has not lived in Ogden, or voted here, in the last 14 years and did not vote here this time either. The purpose of filing a long list like that is the assumption that a certain number on it will not return to the polls to vote after being challenged. On the other hand, other people, not on the challenge list, may have cast provisional ballots as well for a variety of reasons.
If the current nearly 200 vote margin for Godfrey stands, there are probably not enough provisional ballots to overcome it. And the provisional ballots will not all break one way in any case. And invariably, some of them are thrown out because the ballots were improperly filled out, and so on.
It would take about 1000 provisional ballots having been cast and being counted to have any reasonable chance to overcome a 200 vote gap between candidates. If 1000 provisional ballots broke for Van Hooser 60/40, that would overcome the 200 vote margin. But it is unlikely in a race that was damn near 50/50 in the "regular" vote would break 60/40 for either candidate in the provisional votes.
If the nearly 200 vote gap stands when the regular vote is certified, the Mayor's race is over and Godfrey won, I think.
There is no joy in Mudville tonight, the mighty Susie has struck out.
How is it that everyone who supports Godfrey lost their races, but Van Hooser didn't win? Does that make any sense?
It is interesting that the Van Hooser team could not win her own home precincts. Godfrey and his designated hitters all took those voter rich and crucial Shadow Valley precincts as well as two other core areas in central east Ogden.
Van Hooser could not convince those core business oriented east side areas that she had a business plan to deal with the massive enterprise that Ogden Inc. has become. The reason is because she didn't have a plan, her "business" advisers were clueless as to how to handle the problem or even define it. She was managed by people who were way to afraid to stand up to Godfrey and tell the public about his integrity and leadership problems. They were totally impotent in educating the voters on what a house of cards the mayor's main bragging points were. They failed to give the voters a clear cut reason to remove the sitting mayor. It was their's to lose and they did.
It's not over till every vote is counted folks, and it's looking to be a very tight race! I have it on good authority that the Boy Mayor is particularly worried at the moment. His nasty little trick of challenging voters may yet come back to haunt him! With less than 200 votes to spare and an UNUSUALLY high number of provisional ballots (HMMMM how could this be?) - assuming that the majority of those provisional ballots were cast by targeted voters (i.e. non-godfrey voters) then we could see that relatively small majority wittled down pretty quickly.
This mayoral race may actualy come down to a handful of votes!
JIM
And what exactly will be your stance, if some/all of the challenges are valid?? Do you believe people should be able to vote in your election that aren't residents just because they happen to agree with your current opinion??
And I'm not sure what you mean by "lost" armed robberies, is that some argument about the discrepancies over the crime statistics in Ogden.
Anyone can take a set of facts and present it as evidence for an argument they are trying to make, you do the same thing when making a case for your side.
Its what makes politics so fun and so frustrating, I'm just grateful that we live in a place where we can have discussions such as this without fear of any real repercussions, other than being taunted by some crazed liberals.
Lighten up! Ogden under anyones leadership is a pretty great place to live and if you don't agree there are at least four great roads and a railroad leading out of it, don't let the door hit you on your way out!
carl rove's brain,
you said “It was their's to lose and they did.”
I'd just like to make a couple of points:
1. The Van Hooser campaign had less than a third of the budget than that of the Godfrey Campaign! In fact, GF's campaign manager was paid more than the entire VH budget. This means that the VH Campaign was entirely reliant on the hard work and dedication of non-paid volunteers. As well meaning as volunteers are, it is often difficult to keep them motivated over the course of a long and tiring election process.
2. Godfrey is an incumbent; traditionally this is a very difficult position to beat.
3. MG ran a dirty campaign right down to the wire. He told outright lies during the campaign process; used channel 17 to his unfair advantage; insinuated the endorsement of the Governor in phone messages, radio commercials, and mailing pieces; and used intimidation and dirty tricks at the polls to suppress voter turnout - the entire time trying to discredit VH's own integrity.
4. MG had the full backing of the SE including an endorsement attacking his opponent and news articles favorable to him. (Not to mention the endorsement of the Chamber and the board of realtors).
5. VH refused to compromise her own integrity at any point in the campaign. She chose to take the high road by attempting to point out MG’s weaknesses while not resorting to the same sort of mud-slinging that was constantly being thrown at her. This is an extremely difficult balance to achieve! You’ve heard for yourself on this very blog how some thing she was too negative, while others think she wasn’t critical enough!
Given all this and more, I think it is incredibly unfair for you to say that the race was VH's to lose. This race has literally been David (VH) versus Goliath (MG) - considering that the race is as close as it is, I think you owe all the dedicated and hard working individuals who worked tirelessly (sometimes 20-40 hours per week unpaid!) on the VH campaign an apology!
Susie was especially courageous – she put herself out there when many others were too afraid to run. She didn’t have to subject herself to the many personal attacks on her character and outright public ridicule she received at the hands of MG and his unscrupulous cronies. But you know what – she saw that there was room for improvement in this community and she worked to and through the point of personal injury to make an effort to talk to every member of our community! Thank you Susie, for showing us how to rise above the fray, for showing grace under pressure, and for stepping up to the plate to begin with!
Wait and See:
If the 200 vote margin in the regular balloting stands, the election is over and Godfrey won. There were 146 names on the challenge list, but that does not mean 146 people voted provisional ballots. I doubt very much that all of the 146 names on the ballot voted or tried to. And invariably, some provisional ballots are tossed out... incorrectly filled out, wrong papers filed, etc. etc. Plus not all of those who vote provisionally will have voted for VH.
I don't know how many provisional ballots were actually cast, but it would take at a minimum 1000 of them validated and counted to have any reasonable chance of overcoming a 200 vote margin I think... and even then, they'd have to break 60/40 for VH, which is very unlikely when the regular vote broke damn near 50/50.
So if the 200 vote margin is certified as accurate, the election for mayor is over.
Not over yet. According to the SE there are about 800 absentee ballots left to be counted and 480 provisional ballots.
Antilib:
Since you asked, I'll tell you what my stance is.
I don't think it somehow "improves" the integrity of the voting process to form a list of political opponents and use that as a basis for challenging their right to vote. In fact, I think a tactic like that does the opposite.
I think that manipulating facts -- whether it's voting numbers or crime statistics or city debt -- in a cynical attempt to pervert the democratic process is abhorrent.
I believe in the sanctity of democracy. I was taught by my father to dress in my Sunday best and go to the polls with a sense of wonder and purpose. I was taught to reflect on my vote and cast the best ballot I could, given the facts as I had them at the time Election Day rolls around.
The treatment of facts, or votes, as a commodity to be bought and sold to the highest bidder frankly makes me sick to my stomach. I find it passing strange that so-called "conservatives" actually circumvent the values and principles laid forth in the United States Constitution, which to me is a sacred and (literally) awesome document arrived at through the political process which you and those of your ilk are trying so damn hard to circumvent.
On a lighter note: Congratulations to Urbanite for taking second place in the Grift Ogden Vote-Or-Shut-Up Challenge!
So Mr. Carl Rove's brain - where were you during the Van Hooser campaign - or do you really even care? Monday morning quarter backs are a dime a dozen and hardly live up to the Carl Rove reference. We knew we wouldn't win in her "home" precincts where crime and deteriorating neighborhoods and sale of public park lands aren't important issues.......yet. We didn't count on those votes. You find that "interesting"? Gosh, what an "interesting" observation. Where have you been? Yes, it was our race to lose; and we may have lost it to a SOB who used lies, distorted records, and doctored photos to "win". Call it a victory if you want (after all you are Carl Rove and we do understand your definition of victory), but if Godfrey wins, he'll have won on a lie - the lie that Huntsman supported him, which he did not' and the lie that Susie voted for over 50 million in debt, which she did not (unless you call refinancing a previous loan, a vote for debt). He'll be haunted with the lies of his win and we'll be haunted with him. Let's not forget that Godfrey had four times as much money as the Van Hooser campaign, and he hired the John Swallow sleaze guy to run his campaign. If the Van Hooser campaign had the revenue to canvass and intimidate, er I mean target, voters, I think she would have won. But, as you know Mr. Rove, you can't do it all. Hey, wanna come over and talk about the future of politics in Ogden? I'd love to have your incredible insight and expertise and I'd especially like to know what you find "interesting." That would be really -- interesting.....
mhall,
In an election this close, we can ask all sorts of "what ifs".
There's no question that Godfrey's lies helped him in the election. As long as the media (mainly the Standard-Examiner) print as gospel virtually everything Godfrey says, lying will be an effective technique for him. He's extremely good at it. But somehow I doubt that his lies haunt him in the least.
(Note to Godfrey supporters who need to have everything spelled out: The big lies of this campaign were the 23%/43% reduction in total/violent crime; that Ogden was dead before Godfrey was elected and would have remained dead had he not been elected; that Godfrey is an environmentalist; and that Van Hooser's integrity is just as suspect as Godfrey's. There were, of course, many smaller lies.)
On the other hand, I strongly suspect that many of Godfrey's other negative tactics backfired on him in this election. The series of direct-mail attacks on Van Hooser could easily have lost him more votes than it won. Same for the implied Huntsman endorsement, since he got caught and the newspaper actually reported it.
mhall,
Let's not forget to remind everyone about the Godfrey campaigns suddend pre-election flip-flop on the sale of Mt. Ogden Park; and the noted lack of the "Gondola" word in any campaign material. O' and don't forget the return of the Wal-Mart that was only mentioned to a small group of business people!
I have talked to MANY people who supported MG, but who when I mentioned any of these topics saw them literally cringe. Most intelligent voters don't support any of these phantom platforms of Matt's - but he'll somehow turn it into a mandate!
Speaking of lies, I'm reminded of a story about the mayor's father in law, Ed Allen.
At the big unveiling of the Peterson "plan" at WSU in April 2006, there was a map on display showing proposed new trails in yellow and trails to be eliminated ("displaced") in red. I was explaining this map to someone when Allen walked up and said no, the trails in red weren't going to be eliminated. I asked him if he was sure and he said yes. Then I pointed him to the small legend at the bottom of the map which showed that I was right and he was wrong. I proceeded to tell him that I don't appreciate it when people make things up, say them with authority, and then expect everyone to believe them. He was completely flummoxed, as if nobody had ever spoken to him like that before.
I suspect it's the same with Allen's son in law. Under normal conditions he can say whatever he wants and people believe him, or at least, don't challenge him to his face. If we have to deal with him for another four years, we need to challenge every lie he tells--to his face whenever possible.
TK:
While there are apparently about 1250 outstanding votes to still be counted, I doubt it will be enough to erase the Mayor's margin. But little point at this point in speculating. We'll just have to settle back and await the outcome.
About the VH campaign overall: she and her campaign staff did a hell of a job. This was an out of left field campaign from the start. A retired school teacher who had never run a political race in her life, with one year of service on the council, declaring at the last moment, with minimal financing and an all-volunteer effort took a well funded two time incumbent down to the wire, and stands this morning less than two hundred votes behind him. And to get even that, he had to publicly abandon the plan he'd been insisting for the last three years was Ogden's only hope of economic salvation an prosperity: to sell the city's largest park to for development as a gated community of vacation villas to finance, in part, a flatland downtown gondola. Ms. VH and her staff ran one hell of a campaign.
But, in the end, a W is a W and an L is an L, and if the results end as they are now, the voters will have given Godfrey the W in this race. It also seems probable, though, that without Ms. Van Hooser's strong showing, Mr. Godfrey would have carried into office with him a rubber-stamp city Council. As the results stand now, two of the three council candidates he supported and who supported him have lost, and the third may have. [Margin too close to call given the number of outstanding provisional and absentee votes.] The VH campaign probably did not succeed in putting her in office, but it did play a crucial role, I think, in carrying at least two of the three non-Administration endorsed council candidates into office, and possibly all three of them. Hell of a race.
What it seems happened [pending final counts] is that Ogdenites voted for a kind of divided government, with Godfrey in the executive office and an independent Council in the legislative branch to check and balance, as they saying goes, his excesses and bull-in-the-china-shop managerial style. I suspect he will still try to auction off much of Ogden to his developer cronies, but an independent council can do much to prevent the most ill-advised of the sales.
We shall see.
Hell of a race.
Dan S.
you wrote "I don't appreciate it when people make things up, say them with authority, and then expect everyone to believe them."
Sadly this behavior is becoming more prominent on the political scene both nationally and locally.
The question becomes “what is a viable source for the truth?” or “What really is the truth?” Most people generally accept that if they see something on TV or read it in the newspaper that it is true, regardless of the original source for the information. As our society continues to degenerate, new generations aren't being taught the critical thinking skills necessary to take in information, analyze it, and then validate it! We used to rely on the power of the free press to keep politicians in check. Now, the media is as big a business as big oil, and whomever controls the information controls the people.
Curm, I have to disagree.
you wrote: "What it seems happened [pending final counts] is that Ogdenites voted for a kind of divided government, with Godfrey in the executive office and an independent Council in the legislative branch to check and balance." While that may be the result of the election, I doubt that it is what "Ogdenites voted for." Clearly, close to half of Ogdenites voted for Godfrey, Eccles, Johnson and (in Ward 4) Petersen. And half of Ogdenites voted Van Hooser, Wicks, Ardema and Gochnour. Very few Ogdenites, I would guess, actually voted for a divided government, as you say, voting for Godfrey, Ardema and Wicks, for instance.
The shocker to me is that Godfrey defeated VH in precint 113, given that she beat him in the primary in that precinct. My guess is that Godfrey's victory there was due largely to his proclaimed reversal on the Mt Ogden land sale.
Dan S
I actually almost started to hear the Star Spangled Banner playing when I was reading your post and then I threw up!!!!!
I was merely trying to put as you said a "lighter note on the situation." Whether you and your dad like to admit it or not there is not a political party that does not skew the facts for their benefit!!!! Dan there are actually degrees given in statistics and how you gather them and how you report them.
Dan let me give you a simple example, one that you can understand and not politicize, one party says the glass is half full the other says the glass is half empty." Dan is one side lying????? Or are they merely stating the facts in a different way, sure each statement puts a completely different spin on the situation BUT no one is lying.
How dare you say I don't respect my country or its constitution you know nothing about me, thank heavens!!!! It is your party that is systematically trying to dismantle the constitution as our founding fathers wrote it, freedom of religion (not freedom from religion) gun control, oppressive taxation, governmental control over every aspect of our lives, education, and healthcare come to mind, judicial legislation should I go on?
And this "political process" our founding fathers used to form the constitution I believe at the time it was called treason and if anyone of them would have been caught they would have been killed. Don't even try to compare yourself or your political cronies to these men. And I suspect if they knew someone was trying to cheat and vote illegally every single one of them would have called that cheater out and it wouldn't have mattered what political party they happened to belong to. Typical lib thinking its not cheating if it helps us achieve our agenda, how very Machiavellian of you.
As for your Allen story, I suspect that he was not as dazzled by your brilliance nor was he "flummoxed" by your incredible display of protection of the "truth as inferred in your story. More he was probably completely shocked that he ran into someone with your complete lack of social skills and tact especially in an institute of higher education. I think you were lucky he was as gracious as he was, I would not have been.
Everyone has rights oh unless they disagree with you, right JIM?
Dear Antilib Short-deck Geiger:
Your points are fantastic and are in no need of emphasis with so many of your dramatic exclamation points.
Sorry merely trying to convey the emotion and conviction behind what I am saying. Although, as you point out it is fairly obvious.
Are ther any appartment buildings or large houses sub-divided on the 1300 block of 27th st.?
It appears the voter challenging blake fowers claims to reside there.
antilib,
Are you confusing me with Jim? We're two different people, I assure you.
Yes and I apologize for the confusion but without stating anything again, I believe one can fairly discern which comments address which issues. Although, a totally duh moment, as the credibility or the validity of my statements gets lost in the confusion.
Anti:
Your post to Dan S. is a good example of what I mean... conservatives telling liberals what liberals believe, when you haven't a clue.
For example, in your bill of particulars, you suggest it is the goal of liberals to create an America "free from religion." That would surprise the great majority of church and synagogue going liberals I know. It would be like me saying "Anti is a conservative and so wants to create a theocracy in America." That would be as presumptuous [and as wrong] as you telling me that as a liberal I must want to make the nation "free from religion." As a card-carrying member of the ACLU, I'm proud that my organization has gone into court time and time again to defend religious liberty... for example, going into court to sue on behalf of a student at a high school told she and her friends could not say grace over their lunch in the school lunchroom. The school principal who told them that was dead wrong: no law, no court has denied them the right to say grace over their lunches. And the ACLU won the case. But one example of a great many.
As a liberal, you tell me I'm for "government control of every aspect of our lives." Wrong again. As a card-carrying member of the ACLU, my organization goes into court regularly to get over-zealous government officials out of people's lives. It isn't liberals who want the government to regulate what goes on between consenting adults, and even married ones, in the privacy of their bedrooms. And it's my liberal group that has gone into court repeatedly to tell officious government officials [sheriffs, mayors, town councils, state legislators] "what their doing is none of your damn business." And it's my group that's gone into court to defend people told, by their town governments, they could not fly American flags from their businesses because the flags violated a signage code. And so, again, when you try to tell me what, as a liberal, I believe you are very badly informed. And damned presumptuous.
You wrote: And this "political process" our founding fathers used to form the constitution I believe at the time it was called treason and if anyone of them would have been caught they would have been killed. Don't even try to compare yourself or your political cronies to these men. And I suspect if they knew someone was trying to cheat and vote illegally every single one of them would have called that cheater out and it wouldn't have mattered what political party they happened to belong to.
Anti, you need to spend a little time studying history if you're going to use it to make points in discussion. A minor point first: several of "them" were captured by the British in the course of the war. They were not executed. One signer, captured, recanted and took a loyalty oath the the King. They weren't little plaster saints, the Founders; they were just men, as fallible and as given to venality, error, foolishness as you and I. That's what makes what they accomplished so incredible.
And if you think there was no election skulduggery among the Founding Fathers, you have really been let down by those who taught you history.
Make you a deal. You stop trying to tell me what I think, and I'll promise not to presume to tell you what you think. Seems fair to me.
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