As much as we hate to kill off a good lively discussion, it's a new Sunday morning, so we decided to kick off something new. We've had a quite robust conversation going in Jim's lower election discussion thread for the last few days, with over 210 comments so far. At this point, the volume of comments is becoming unwieldy however, so we'll start off today by focusing upon several of this morning's Standard-Examiner journalistic offerings.
Now that Emerald City has become a bona-fide recreation mecca, we suppose we'll be seeing a lot more articles like these on our home town newspaper's front page:
Vertical Excess?
Yosemite troubled by climbers' garbage
Although the approaches in these tandem articles differ slightly, they are both bound together by a single common general theme. The sport of rock climbing is now booming. Rock climbing, once the sole province of a relatively small class of hard-core elitists, is being overrun by newcomers, many of whom have learned their climbing techniques and outdoor ethics in urban "climbing gyms." In conjunction, these two articles nicely set forth the clash of cultures that's now occurring in the rock climbing world, as the "old school" elitists confront wet-behind-the ears "climbers" from the downtown gym. Interesting reading, we think, and highly relevant to our own community, inasmuch as a giant plastic climbing wall is now a featured attraction, down at PeeWee's Playouse.
Over the past few years we've marvelled, as the Standard-Examiner has intermittently placed odd-ball articles on various back pages, highlighting little towns throughout the west, who've hitched their economic development wagons to tiny ski resorts and cable-based aerial contraptions. It's in that context that we find this morning yet another such article, this one asking the pregnant question: "Will small ski resorts lift cities?".
Maybe it's just us, gentle readers, but we're somehow getting a strong sense of Deja Vu. Here we are, just a short five days from our yet-undecided municipal election, and the Std-Ex already begins another transparent push for rinky-dink ski resorts. Can further stories about Chris Peterson's fabled Malan's Basin Roadless Tyrolian Ski Resort be far off? Perhaps this depends upon the results of the election.
And speaking of the still-pending election, we have further information on the activities occurring in the Weber County Election Department counting room, activities which are occurring even as we speak. We received this short missive early yesterday evening, from a spokesman for the Van Hooser campaign:
I have it from a good source that the county has decided it be best to wait until all the ballots have been validated, in or out, then proceed with the counting. I think they agree that it is best to decide on the validity of those ballots without the weight of the absentee and other provisional ballots being counted. It was a wise decision and one that I appreciate them making. The goal of the Van Hooser campaign is to have as many votes validated as possible, count them and let the chips fall where they may. The goal of the Godfrey camp is clearly to rush the process and count as few of the provisionals -- especially from 108 - as possible. I believe that McEwan, the County Attorney and the Lieutenant Governor's office all want the same thing -- empower the voters and let them decide. Encouraging news.Encouraging news indeed.
That's it for now, gentle readers. We invite you to carry on the discussion from here, wherever it may lead.
Update 11/12/07 10:45 a.m. MT: For those who've been sitting on the edges of their seats, we belatedly link here the final results of the Grift Ogden Vote or Shut Up Challenge . The complete scrolling gallery of contest submissions, including winners and noble non-winners alike, can be viewed at the griftogden.com website. All-in-all a fine array of contest entries, we think -- and a tough task for the judges, in narrowing it down to the final three.
105 comments:
Rudi:
Thank God. It was The Thread That Would Not Die.
On the Small Resorts Article:
What I took away from the small ski area story was not what you took from it, Rudi. First, the premier example the writer offered was a slope in Denver run by the city parks department. That would never fly with the Neo Con Junta downtown, since they think city-owned and operated recreational facilities are the first step down the slippery slope to socialism. They'd have us believe truth in advertising requires renaming the Mt. Ogden Park Golf Course for Karl Marx.
Second, the kind of area the SE article is talking about is manifestly not the kind of area Mr. Peterson and Mayor Godfrey tried to package in the now [they tell us] dead Park Sale Peterson Proposal. The only characteristic Peterson's grandiose vision shared with the areas described in the article is "small." Very small. And the base area of the slope the article talks about in Denver is located pretty much at the level of the rest of the city. You don't have to take a multi-million dollar gondola just to get to the base area where for ten or fifteen bucks you can access a rope tow or maybe a T-bar.
Peterson's plan envisioned, remember, a four season up-market resort, with condos up the mountain, shoppes, two count 'em two gondola rides [each with a fare] to get there from downtown--- before you bought your lift ticket. It was aimed, we were told over and over by the Mayor and his henchmen, at drawing the high-end big money ski crowd who would fly in to Salt Lake City to ski Ogden's mini slope rather than the world famous slopes of the Cottonwood Canyons resorts, or Snow Basin --- all of which could have been reached more quickly.
What the article is touting instead is something very different: small and inexpensive [for the ski world] slopes aimed nearly exclusively at residential skiers from the immediate area.
Hey, we live in ski country. Skiing is a major part of Utah's winter economy. Ogden now, at last, runs a ski shuttle bus from hotels up to Snow Basin, Powder Mountain and Wolf Mountain. We're marketing Ogden as a base from which to ski. Given that, I wouldn't read much by way of nefarious motive into the SE story today. It was a wire service story, after all, and it does seem to fit local interests pretty well. I think the Godfrey/Peterson Grand Park Sale Gondola Gondola Tyrolean pipe dream was... well, nuts. But if I were editing the SE, I'd have run the "small ski area" story too, on grounds that a significant number of my readers would probably find it interesting.
Clearly you did. You made it part of today's thread.... [grin]
Curm,
Are those ski shuttles for the general public or only people staying at local hotels?
So, Rudi, what does the missive from the SVh camp mean? So we won't be getting the news on Tuesday?
ANYone with a personal story or a neighbor's that can't be faulted needs to write to McEwan and the Lt Gov...hand deliver, tomorrow, if possible.
What a scandal!
Relatives in the Sandy area talking about this today...shaking their heads.
I watched the Changing of the Guard at teh Tomb of the Unknown Soldiers today from Arlington. So stirring.
The speeches were wonderful too.
I salute all our active duty soldiers and those who have served this country in the many wars.
There were 3 WWI vets at Arlington today.
Such a sacred, hallowed place.
Thanx to Commander Maughan for the video.
Always remember these men and women and their families.
Rudi, the reason Godfrey didn't hog the spotlite this yr is cuz maybe he reads the blog, and read that I said he should keep it short and not about him...ya think?
I was driving from downtown to my house just a few minutes ago and noticed another fine example of Godfrey's budget cutting.
Remember how we used to have our leaves picked up in the fall by the city - not anymore, people are just putting them along side the curb.
Result, I saw streets being flooded at intersections due to leaves blocking the storm drains and one house being flooded because it's at the lowest point on the street.
Ironic, the house being flooded has a "Godfrey for Mayor" sign in the yard.
Sharon,
I think he kept it short because he knew that at least every other person in the crowd doesn't like him.
OL:
Good question. I don't know. Depends on who is running them, I guess. If they're being run by the city, I imagine they'd be open to anyone willing to pay the fare. If they're being operated by the hotels, probably guests only. Word had it [here in fact] that the shuttles were running full or close last season, but I don't know for sure.
Also found it hard to find info on them. I couldn't anywhere on the city web site when I tried a couple of months ago. I guess the CVB would be a good place to inquire. I'll email 'em and see what comes back.
Curm wrote :
"You don't have to take a multi-million dollar gondola just to get to the base area where for ten or fifteen bucks you can access a rope tow or maybe a T-bar."
I, for one, would be all for the gondola if its final destination was a T-bar.
Not sure if this is current:
ski schedule updated feb 07
OF:
Thanks for the link.
you see the mess this little crook and his family and hangers' on have caused?
Trampling on the citizens' right to vote in PRIVATE, unharrassed, and without intimidation? For once his nefarious schemes are backfiring.
Let us pray that Susie emerges victorious!
We'll have to watch the crook like a hawk ere he gives away our open space between now and Jan!
Observer:
I don't see how the secrecy of the ballot process has been compromised. There seems to be a reasonable case for harassment [defined as making voting unreasonably more difficult for some than for others for partisan reasons]. A much weaker case, so far as I can see, for intimidation. As to whether it is "all backfiring," well, that remains to be seen. The County and it seems the state's SOS office are taking complaints [or so it has been reported], but whether any of that will add up to charges being filed, or any action being taken remains to be seen. A tad early to be predicting the success of charges that have yet to be filed and that may in the end not be filed at all.
Hey Curm......one of our posters on here was not allowed to vote in secret! I agree with Obs. that this skunk may get his yet.
Before you come off so "faur" about this little criminal, perhaps you shuld reread what happened to some of the voters of Ogden.
If the powers that be in SLC and the County do their jobs correctly, I can't see how charges can not be filed. We've never had a mess like this before. That was is the paper!
Sharon:
At my polling place, people given provisional ballots were sent to a separate table once they had to ballot, to fill it out out of the view of the provisional ballots poll worker. I agree, if a voter was given no choice but to fill out the actual ballot under the gaze of a poll worker [or worse, poll watcher], that would be a serious undermining of the secret ballot. A very serious violation.
I've been reading the posts, and I don't recall claims that people were forced to fill out ballots under the gaze of poll workers or watchers. I may have missed something or read over it too quickly, but I don't recall any.
By the way, this is not a fairness issue. It's an accuracy issue. If you can point me to claims that people were given no option but to fill out ballots in full view of poll workers, I'll be happy to change my view on this. But I don't recall any so far.
Justice Courts and Ticket Quotas
While we all wait for the County to finish counting ballots and wonder how it will all turn out, and speculate endlessly, thought it might be a good time to return to an old topic: ticket quotas as a way to finance justice courts in counties and cities around Utah. Hence this, from Paul Rolly's column in today's SL Trib:
If there is any doubt that the top priority of municipal justice courts is to raise revenue for cities through fines, or that local police are pressured to write tickets, former Sandy police Sgt. David W. Lundberg offers his experience. He cites a "pay for performance" system that rewards traffic cops on the basis of how many tickets they write. And the conviction rate in municipal justice courts is about 98 percent.
Lundberg says the incentive program is disguised as "accident prevention," but the reality forces cops to find the best "fishing hole" to get the most speeding tickets in the least amount of time. Lundberg says that rather than focusing on violations that statistically cause more accidents, police are under pressure to write tickets that are easiest.
Sandy police spokesman Sgt. Victor Quezada disputes Lundberg's assessment, stating that, while all officers have stated goals and objectives, there is no ticket quota they must meet to attain raises or bonuses. "Nobody has ever been fired or demoted for not writing enough tickets," he said.
I am sure no one has been fired or demoted for not writing enough tickets. But it's a matter of economics, if I want to get a merit raise to help put more food on the table for my family, I'm gonna write more tickets to make sure I get my raise.
It may not be a quota, but it is an incentive.
You decide.
Transplanted Utah Developer Dean Sellers Wants To Create A "Gated Community For The Rich" In Wasatch County - And Call It "Aspen"
That was none other than Mayor Godfrey at the Artisan Grille Saturday night, brood and in-laws in tow. Too bad I wasn't sitting closer, I wanted to see if his tipping habits are as they've been reported here.
Talk about poetic justice. This electoral limbo of the past week is possibly the most appropriate punishment Godfrey could incur, even moreso than an outright SVH victory. Instead of twisting in the wind merely on election day (as Curmudgeon pointed out), he's enduring a week of slow water-torture. While SVH seems perfectly happy to move on with her life if she loses, Godfrey's behavior (utterly paranoid, hiring attorneys to harass Gloria Berrett, dispatching his goons to intimidate voters at the polls) shows it's a matter of life and death to him. Couldn't happen to a nicer fella.
Cardboard finger tapping
The ski article misinforms like so much of todays journalism. The headline suggests some new movement in city owned ski areas yet the examples are decades old. Winterpark has been around since the 1930's. So has Silverton, Traverse City and others. I understand Snowbasin was founded as a municipal ski area for Ogden. Malan's Basin would make a decent small municipal ski area but serving it with a 20 million dollar high capacity gondola system both from the foothills and from downtown is asinine. That is the hangup in the Malan's Basin dream. There is simply not enough skiable or buildable acreage to justify the investment in the base operation and gondola system. Thus there is absolutely no justification or feasibilty for an urban gondola to serve such a miniscule ski area(It could never be a RESORT)
The Geigers, the mayor, Mike Dowse, Sue Wilkerson, and the few hangers on to this dream, REFUSE to evaluate this "VISION" from a factual analysis like most people use to decide where to buy a muffler or some such. Peterson knows it, that is why he wants to subsidize it with a home development using city parklands that belong to us. The SE can be included in the instigators of the perpetuation of the Malan's Basin fallacy.
A quick look at maps and elevation along with a hike to the basin and proposed termini reveals the nonsense of it all. Why is it that these "YAYSAYERS" refuse to look at facts and keep us hamstrung on transit issues. I do not think it is that the intend to do that. They have been subjected to a fantasy and their personal pride prevents them fron backing away from some thing they invested public positions into supproting. They have written opinion letters and moved companies here on the vision. They now have invested they integrity in MAtt Godfreys lies. How can they gently back away from their obvious stumble into his web of deceit.
I hold out a helping hand to the Geigers and the rest of them that they will still be accepted as members of the community if they humbly rescind they're support for this nonsense and realize their misjudgement. I will even allow them that they were misguided in labeling us "naysayers". I can accept that they were mislead by false information by someone(the mayor) who would be assumed by gentle folk to be doing his homework. That is what I assumed when I moved here but found out after viewing the facts that he is full of shit.
I welcome any of the yaysayers to stick to the subject of Malan's Basin and gondolas and debate this turkey. My challenge stands for as long as it takes for any of them to emerge from the moldy woodwork and stand by their murky position.
Ogden Lover:
The CVB has replied about the Ogden Ski Shuttles.
1 - Generally the shuttle costs about $5 round trip but it depends on the lodging property.
2 - There are 6 trips daily for 2 buses. They run morning, afternoon & evening.
3 - The funding for the ski bus is designated for lodging guests only.
Currently, it is not available for local residents.
Well said, Tec.
I think small, low-priced urban ski areas are a great idea, where the geography permits. "Geography" means elevation, aspect, and slope. The elevation needs to be reasonably high, and the aspect should ideally be north- or east-facing. The lower the elevation, the more critical the aspect. The predominant slope should be between 20% and 40%.
Ogden's benches have the right slope but the elevation is too low and the aspect is west-facing. Above the benches the slope is too steep. Malan's Basin is mostly too steep but it might work if there were cheap, easy access--but there isn't and there never will be.
The bottom line is that to find the right conditions for a small ski area near Ogden, you really have to go around to the other side of the Wasatch front range. And lo! We already have a small, inexpensive ski area over there. It's called Wolf Mountain.
I believe the whole election process has taken the focus off of what is really at the core of the division in Ogden.
The Malan's Basin fallacy has been used to divide this community. The promoters claim that the opponents do not want progress for Ogden. That is a blatant lie.
The Malan's Basin dream is complex and comes with many abstractions. Those abstractions include progress, development, transit, infrastructure, public lands, quality of life, and much more.
That is why it has come to divide the community and raise emotions to such levels. The whole thing is an abstraction that is being used cleverly to consolidate political power.
Notice that the promoters ARE NOT SKIERS. Only in a city like Ogden could this occur. The substantial base population of Ogden and it's surrounding communities yield a paltry fraction of hardcore ski and snowboarding enthusiasts. That is why our community is vulnerable to such misleadership. This discussion would not even get started in Aspen, Telluride, Winter Park, Park City, Lake Tahoe...even SLC. We are an anomaly. The powers at be in Ogden simply do not have the ski and mountaineering background to understand the limitaitons of Malan's Basin and have thus invested their integrity and public stance in a dream that fails to die.
How can a city be so mislead that it stands divided nearly 50/50 over a project that will never stand the feasibility test. How can the community leaders like the local newspaper and several banker and corporate types drop all business sense and not subject this dream to the standards used to evaluate other projects.
Take away the Malan's Basin fantasy and there is little to argue over in Ogden
Take away the Malan's Basin fantasy and you still have recreational access.
Take away the Malan's Basin fantasy and you still have transit issues that need attention.
Take away the Malan's Basin fantasy and we still have a fantastic quality of life.
Take away the Malan's Basin fantasy and Ogden will still prosper.
The qualities that made Ogden the obvious choice for the railroad are still what make it an obvious destination today.
Progress today demands a transit infrastructure. Let's get on with it and drop the Malan's Basin fantasy.
Tec and Dan, it 's nice to have this discussion, potential ski areas/resorts. It's also too bad that none of the (yay sayers) gondolaists will engage in any relavent dialoque.
Dan, since you brought up Wolf Mountain, the former Nordic Valley, it needs to be pointed out that this resort is very snowfall challenged. They have invested heavily in new snow making equipment. Almost all Utah's significant resorts now make snow.
My question is that given Utah's lack of water, is this the best use of a very limited resourse?
There are serious enviromental concerns with cloud seeding and making artificial snow, I wonder if it truely is beneficial to Joe Utahn to allow one industry to gooble up and profit from the exploitation of such a valuable,essential resourse.
It seems that all our efforts, at acting as the ultimate steward over the natural, have backfired and had serious repercussions that we must pay for.
Dan, The presence of 3 ski areas with better aspect also undermines the feasibility of Malan's basin. I personally believe that the snow conditions there would not be quite as bad as speculated. On stormy days the powder conditions would be as good as Snowbasin until the sun comes out. The visibility, though, is a problem as there is little tree cover in most of the upper bowl section. Strawberry has this problem when the storms hit. I like it that way but it's not for visitors. The west aspect could actually provide some nice spring conditions on days when Snowbasin is all shady and icy.
The most significant limitations to Malan's Basin as a ski area is the skiable acreage(less than 200 acres) and access. The access demands a service lift. Customers simply will not take a the lift ride TO Malan's Basin in anything less than a gondola. Yet the skiable acreage will not support the capacity nor the expense of a gondola. Thus THE GONDOLA should be a dead issue. It isn't.
I latched onto the Malan's Basin fantasy when I moved here a couple of years back. I'm a sucker for ski acreage access. Most newcomers are vulnerable to the same. I made the mistake of assuming that any group like Lift Ogden would not even go so far as to invest time in meetings and brochures without checking with experts and seeing a feasibility study. They did not. They were working on faith.
I can read a map and evaluate terrain. Dan helped me understand the limitations. The limitations are obvious.
Why do the gondolists refuse to read a map.
Why do the gondolists persist in dividing a community over a fantasy when we want the same goals.
Bill:
The matters you raise open up can of worms after can of worms. Discussing water policy in the west inevitably involves discussing water law, a headache-generating Gordian knot of complexity.
We've party "commodified" [god-awful word, that] water in the west via the idea of "water rights" which can be bought and sold. Add in an overlay of public subsidizing water use [mostly federal], largely by major commercial growers, but by homeowners as well, often, and of public-owned rights to various sources of water [note the current uproar about plans to sell the right to billions... yes, with a B, billions... of gallons annually down on the Green River to a projected nuke plant to be built [of course] by a Utah State legislator]. Any discussion of water policy [which is what you've raised] necessarily gets wrapped up in all of the above as well.
If a ski area owns enough water, or the rights to it, to spray in the air to make snow, they pretty much can do it whether it's a good idea from the broader POV of public policy or not. Two years ago, there was a mega-drought in Santa Fe [still continuing by the way]. A developer had gotten rights to water to keep emerald green his fairway homes mega resort development. The city was under emergency restrictions, and begging him to cut back. He said no, because his home buyers and resort visitors had paid for green fairways and he intended to provide them. Nothing anyone could do. Water as commodity in the market. It's how we do things.
Then there are the technical questions, about which I am thoroughly uninformed. Does a significant amount of water used to make snow, when it melts in the spring, return to the reservoirs and water courses? Does it thus constitute only "borrowing" it [so to speak] for a season before it returns as flow to storage facilities for other uses? I have no idea. Does anyone here? If so, please post.
Then there are the economic consequences: no snow, no skiers, no megamillions pumped into the Utah economy by winter ski tourists. A not trivial matter to take into account.
You ask: "I wonder if it truly is beneficial to Joe Utahan to allow one industry to gobble up and profit from the exploitation of such a valuable,essential resource." Well, before we could answer that, we'd have to know what alternative use the water could be put to, and, probably more important, what alternative use the water would likely be put to. [Consider the Utah legislature's record on making decisions about the wise use of public resources.]
And finally, you comment that "It seems that all our efforts, at acting as the ultimate steward over the natural, have backfired and had serious repercussions that we must pay for." Bill, every use of every resource, every decision by virtually every one, has an environmental impact of some sort. What we've not done a very good job of overall, is anticipating the probably impacts of our decisions, and of researching in advance the consequences of those decisions before we make them. And so the broader public good gets lost in pursuit of encouraging this or that private benefit. [Leading to what Milton Friedman described as the American economic system: "Welfare for the rich; free enterprise for the poor."]
All of that gets wrapped up in any discussion of water policy in the west. And now, it seems, in the "wet" east too as Georgia faces running out of water in Atlanta.
The New Face of Jim Crow: Voter Suppression in America
Curm, I well aware of some of the most pressing water issues, proposed power plant on the Green as well as Las Vegas' attempt to steal a whole aquifer from western Utah and eastern Nevada. I believe exsisting water law will be somewhat altered quite soon, there's not enough for everyone's needs,or wants if you will.
The case with snow snow making and cloud seeding are something that needs some further investgation.
This is not some passive spaying of pure water proccess, there are chemical components involved, probably said to be inert, but that's a very scary definition of any forien compound introduced into the environment. The result can be diminished water quality.
Partially hydrogenated vegetable oil was concidered an inert food additive for years, and widely used in our food supply, it's now been revealed to be one of the leading contributers to some of our major health issues.
You also have the dam building craze that produced all these large bodies of water here in the west, now scientists are seriously pondering the wisdom of that endever.
Curm, The question is not whether the water used for snowmaking returns to the source, it does, a little evaporates in the process. The issue is of supply when it's needed, in November before the natural snow cycle begins. This is so that ski areas and local economies can get that Thanksgiving and Christmas rush money fed by so many fantasies (there's that word again) of skiing for the holidays. So our economies still must deliver holiday rushes based on religious fervor and the rush to split from work in order to be healthy. So much of our needs are unsustainable.
So much of our economic dependencies are "dependent" (is that redundant) on cheap energy which is coming to an abrupt end. This includes tourism and skiing in general. In a few years the energy cost of blowing snow will outweigh any dollar gains for the holiday.
Incidentally Snow basin has a monstrous snowmaking system that rarely gets used. It is mainly for maintaining coverage on return trails around lifts. It does not provide coverage on 3000 acres. Even in a thin year like last it is not used much after Christmas.
Curm:
The water law of Utah, to which the irrigating travails of Weber County made a substantial contribution, was established long before there were reservoirs, such as Pineview. In those days, much snowmelt was wasted because it ran down the Ogden and then Weber Rivers into the Great Salt Lake before growing season had shifted into high gear.
Communities west of Ogden Canyon such as Mound Fort, Harrisville, et al., were the first to divert Ogden River water for irrigating, and they had priority of water rights over Huntsville, Eden, and the rest of Ogden Valley. However, since the Ogden Valley farmers tapped their water on the North, Middle, and South Forks, far above the diversion points of the older communities, they were constantly blamed (and sued) by Plain City, Warren, and other end-of-the-line users when the latter's ditches ran dry in July and August.
Civil engineers from Utah State Agricultural College, however, proved that seepage from Ogden Valley farmers' diversion of water eventually percolated back into the Ogden River and INCREASED the amount of water to reach the western communities during high growing season. This principle was enshrined in 1908 at the Utah Supreme Court when it heard North Ogden's appeal from the suit it had lost against Eden.
Nowadays, I assume that snowmelt from Powder Mountain, Wolf Mountain, and Snowbasin is stored in Pineview, which was built 1936-37. I can't imagine that snowmaking violates water laws, particularly since it occurs during the winter. I know nothing of New Mexico water law but I wonder if the situation you describe in Santa Fe could stand here, since in Utah water is legally reserved for "beneficial use," which used to mean farm irrigation but admittedly is broadening.
And Curm [Grin] -- please write UTAHN on the blackboard 100 times. Yes, the New York Times and Wall Street Journal insist on "Utahan," but shouldn't the natives dictate how they are spelled?
None of today's political discourse and plans for the future are factoring in the inevitable explosion in energy costs. $100bbl oil soon.
MM:
You wrote: And Curm [Grin] -- please write UTAHN on the blackboard 100 times. Yes, the New York Times and Wall Street Journal insist on "Utahan," but shouldn't the natives dictate how they are spelled?
When I write it "Utahn" my spell checker begins beeping at me in a most annoying way. However little sense it makes [spelling "rules" rarely do], "Utahan" does seem to be the accepted correct spelling. And since as all well-brought-up people surely know, the NY Times is The Source of Truth and Fount of Wisdom --- or at least it used to be; fallen on sad times now --- I'll stick with its judgment on this unless/until I find one --- and one will do it --- grammatical authority who tells me "Utahn" is OK too. Can you point me at one? Dictionary? Press guide? Anything like that? Just one and I'll switch. Promise.
Curm, if the orthography of "Hoosier" were in dispute (which it isn't), you're saying you'd trust a New Yorker over an Indianan. (Bagels and egg creams, yes. Jello, no.) I don't have access to style guides, but the S-E and SLT surely do; try typing Utahn and then Utahan into both papers' search boxes. You'll come up snake eyes in the S-E and about 3,000 to 3 in the SLT.
MM:
You wrote: You're saying you'd trust a New Yorker over an Indianan....
What a question to ask a Brooklyn boy. Of course I would! [grin]
Curm: Were there no golf courses in Brooklyn? Why Bethpage?
MM:
People in da Brooklyn of my yout didn't play golf. Yankee fans from Manhattan did. Brooklyn people worked for a living and went bowling instead. By my Bethpage caddying days, the clan had fled the city to the greener pastures [metaphorically speaking] of Long Island. But that's still in NY so the answer would be the same....
Be a resource person: if I wanted to read one [one damnit!] book on Utah water law, fairly current, which book should I read? I'm sort of semi-up on western water law overall in a general sort of way [first use vs riparian rights, etc] from a historian's POV, but absolutely clueless about the vagaries of Utah water law particulars, except for the fact that in Utah river bottoms belong to the private owners of the banks on either side, whereas in Wyoming, river bottoms belong to the public, or so the papers report trying to explain why recreational trout fishing is a much bigger commercial enterprise in Wyoming than in Utah which, anglers tell me, has some equally good streams.
So, can you recommend one [I said one!] book to read to bring me up to speed on water law in Zion, from a historical POV if possible?
Moroni and Curmdugeon -
You'ze guys are both wrong. The correct word is Utahnian and in about sixty percent of the population it is Momonian. However, in the great spirit of unity that binds all of us together in this pretty good state I prefer to be known as a Zionian.
It has been reported that in the last couple of years there was an aberrant strain that cropped up known as Giegerians. Most geneticists however discounted the importance of this mutant strain as they apparently can only breed amongst themselves. I don't know the scientific explanation, but it seemed to have something to do with an irrational gene attaching itself to the gullibility chromosome, or was it the other way around?
I have some good books on Utah water:
Waters of Zion: The Politics of Water in Utah
Water Laws of Utah and Interstate Compacts and Treaties - State of Utah
Historical Overview of the Evolutions of Institutions -- Dealing with Water Resource Use, and Water Resource Development in Utah 1847 Through 1947.
The latest news I have received on the voting debacle is that the pro-Godfrey people are challenging 40 provisional votes because there is no signature of the voter receiving the provisional ballot in the official elections book.
I am one of those provisional voters. I have a stub for ballot #3303 which I cast at Grandview Elementary School but I was not allowed to sign the elections book in order to obtain that ballot.
I had asked earlier to sign the book but was told that I could not.
When I finally got to vote at my third attempt to vote, I was told to go to the far end of the judges table where a poll worker handed me a ballot and watched me fill it out. I was not given the privacy of a voting booth.
My vote should not be challenged because of my not being allowed to sign for my ballot. I can prove that I voted because I have a stub and also a number which I had to ask for to prove that I voted.
You can say that the poll workers were new and inexperienced but someone orchestrated the procedure applied to me.
Book Collector:
The first one looks particularly interesting to me. The middle one sounds a tad technical/legal for my interests.
Thanks very much. Hoping the book will plug a hole... more like yawning chasm... I've been meaning to plug since I got here but haven't.
did you notice the men in black suits following you all day?
DL:
Your post raises two, for me, interesting questions to which I don't have a clue about the answers.
1. If a poll worker gives a voter erroneous instructions about about how to cast a provisional ballot [i.e. in this case insisting not only that one need not but in fact can not sign the voter's role at the polling place], can that erroneous action by the poll worker invalidate the ballot? Where does Utah law stand on this? I have no idea.
2. What recourse does a voter have, if any, at law, if he or she is denied, by poll workers, the opportunity to cast a secret ballot? Again, I have no idea. Does anyone? Has this come up before and reached the courts?
By the way, the strategy of the Godfrey camp in challenging so many voters is well illustrated above. A challenged voter means a provisional vote, and provisional votes require a lot more paper work and procedural hoops that must be jumped, absolutely guaranteeing that a certain proportion of the paper work on those ballots will be botched [however inadvertently], creating grounds for denying the ballots altogether.
But then, the Mayor is a Republican, and seeking to win by disqualifying legitimate ballots cast is in his party's DNA.
Dorothy,
I have it on good authority that you did sign in the appropriate place. Not in the main book, but on the special sheet for provisional voters. Had you signed the main book, your provisional ballot would have been thrown out because it would have looked like you were voting twice.
There were a few provisional voters who didn't sign at all, but you were not one of them. It's unclear at this time whether their ballots will be counted.
Dorothy,
Hopefully the VanHooser people will be reading this blog and will make sure all votes are counted, and that none are rejected just because of improperly trained voting judges.
As we read in Rudi's comments a day or two ago, the powers that be were supposed to be trying to simply decide what the provisional voter's wishes were, without regard for technicalities.
And hopefully they will stand up to Godfrey's lawyers or supporters or whoever, who are only about the Devil's business of disenfranchising as many voters as they can.
Moroni, Ozboy and Good Old (?) Curmudgeon:
Your discussion in, re: -anian, -ahan-, -ian gives me great pleasure, in that it recalls my many years as a serious student of literature at Utah's flagship university. We were often enthralled at the prospect of determining whether an author was an -esque or an -ian. Like: John Irving is Rothesque (although most sane people contended Rothian), whereas Tom Robbins is a great Vonnegutian (some nitwits said Vonnegut-esque) phony. Either way, a Geigerian interpretation of a Hellerian passage is this: "Strafe, strafe, strafe!" the gondola launching pads said Major Major Major. But, Yosarian, offered, how am I gonna land my gondola on strafed gondola pads? "Strafe, you ???????????!"
THE SKI IS BEAUTIFUL BLUE
inside source,
Thanks for your comments.
Now I can quit working on my counter attack plan that I was readying in the event that my provisional ballot was thrown out.
Dorothy,
I didn't say your provisional ballot would be counted. Last I heard it was marked invalid because you didn't write your date of birth on the form.
So let's see. Ms. Littrel's lawsuit is thrown out [rightly in my view] because the Judge refused to remove the Mayor from the ballot because he mishandled some paperwork details required by the ordinance.
So now Mayor Godfrey wants Ms. Littrel's vote thrown out because she mishandled some minor paperwork details required by the voting ordinances.
That about it?
Poor Republicans, suing and whining about Republicans. Both Republicans are cheaters.
Wake up and vote for the Democrats next time.
It's about accountability.
Now that the 2007 elections are over, we will soon be focusing on the 2008 elections. Unfortunately, most Utahns will be looking at the Presidential candidates more than the local candidates. Sure it important to be current on national affairs, but we should never overlook our state, county and city problems.
Even though conservatives will want to focus on immigration and so called “moral” issues, they will only mention taxes as a general, rhetorical, campaign soundbite (smaller government, etc). But, are conservatives really serious about taxes? Judging the elections for the past 20 years, taxes are not that important to conservatives because they elect Republicans who persist on raising taxes, both locally and nationally.
But, there are three big reasons as to why taxes keep rising.
First: Elected-Republicans in Utah can raise taxes without worrying about their re-election.
Second: Elected-Republicans, locally and federally, cut taxes for a small percentage of prosperous families, but fail to cut taxes for middle-income families. Thus, the majority of Americans are picking up the “tab”.
To see an example of how the middle-class is stuck paying more taxes, click on the Warren Buffett interview: Video of Warren Buffett interview, NBC Nightly News, November 6, 2007
Third: The biggest myth ever concocted in politics is that Democrats raise taxes and Republicans cut taxes.
Yet, for many, especially in Davis County, that election type language only means that it is a myth. In almost three decades, locally elected-Democrats have not raised taxes and the majority of elected-Republicans have raised taxes.
So, what’s the point? The point is that we should be weary of any Republican talking about tax cuts because they can not back up their past promises. And since we have no elected-Democrats in Davis County, no one can claim that Democrats will raise taxes. The proof is not there, but there is an overabundance of evidence that Republicans do and will raise taxes.
Of course, there will be those who say, “why should we just vote for a Democrat?” Then my response would be, “why should we continue to vote for Republicans?” Then there are those who will say, “stop your whining” or “a Democrat is still capable of raising taxes”. For those who want to live the fantasy that one-party government is perfect, then stop your whining about paying higher taxes.
Curmudgeon,
The mayor apparently wanted Littrell disqualified from voting in Ogden because she owns a home in North Ogden. However, when she produced proof of her Ogden residency, the mayor lost that round. I don't know whether the mayor is continuing to challenge her ballot. It was the county officials (not the mayor) who marked her ballot invalid because the date of birth wasn't filled in. Perhaps they think she's not old enough to vote.
Jason:
Great to see Catch-22 cited just after I read it for the first time. Laughed myself silly in places, but had to force myself to finish it. Perhaps the movie could be remade and recast with Ogden politicians. THE DEVIL WEARS DESCENTE!
Curm:
"Waters of Zion: The Politics of Water in Utah," edited by Daniel McCool (1995). Both WSU and Weber Co. Library have it.
I hope the Utah’s crafted voting laws afford fairness and equality to those individuals that wanted to vote, were legitimately qualified to vote but who’s privilege was challenged (or should we say harassed) by a politically motivation. They desire to be able to exercise their constitutional right to have representation.
I hope that those overseeing this election will see the intent of the law as being exploited by the actions of those that raised so many challenges and realize that the action of issuing the challenges were not to protect the system but rather to game the system by eliminating votes. Since when does one individual come to know of so many “potential fraudulent” registered voters, especially when some of those challenged clearly were eligible and had been voting in the same manner as they did this time for years, and where all those accused were in support of the opposition? This was clearly harassment meant to discourage, complicate the voting process, and eliminate potential votes from the opposing side. This is an abuse of the Utah voting laws.
I would hope that those tasked with evaluating the authenticity of the contested provisional ballots will use the common sense within the law and the knowledge of the true motivations of the actions of those that filed the challenges to balance out how best to work within the intent of the law while fulfilling the law itself. Validating as many ballots as can be reasonably assumed to be legitimate and eligible is what should be the intention. Irrespective of challenges, the intent of the voting laws should be to allow all eligible voters that choose to vote, to have that opportunity.
Voters should not be eliminated based on technicalities but rather validated on the predominance of evidence that validates their eligibility.
Moroni:
As I staggered, with a knife in my abdomen, toward the gondola tower, a helpful preist jumped out of the gondola line to help me, but she removed her disguise and it was revealed that it was Nately's Geiger! She threw me down, removed my knife and made me board THE GONDOLA TO NOWHERE. Nately's Geiger had followed me from Germany to OTown!
THE SKI IS BEAUTIFUL BLUE
Looks like some follow up is needed.
If they are throwing out ballots for technicalities, then Godfrey is in the driver's seat.
I voted. I didn't need to write my birthday. This is getting ridiculous.
Aha, Geiger as ... well, apropos Camille Paglia ("Blair is Clinton's whore")?? And Scrupulous Stu Reid as Milo? Who will play Scheisskopf?
Moroni:
Addled Dr. Ed Allen. Typecast.
THE SKI IS BEAUTIFUL BLUE
MM:
Thanks for the full citation. On my reading list as of now.
Pure comedy. LIttrell goes to court to have the judge count her ballot because it was a mere technicality!
I'm gonna laugh myself to sleep.
With luck, she'll draw that moron, Judge West.
brisco:
Well, the point seems to me to be this: that one standard [only a paperwork minor error and so no election penalty should apply} ought reasonably to be applied in both cases. If the Littrel suit was dismissed in part at least because in the Court's view [the correct view, seems to me] a candidate put on the ballot by the voters ought not to be removed for minor technical paperwork problems with his filing papers, then the same standard should apply to Ms. Littrel's alleged minor technical problems with her provisional ballot papers. Had the judge ruled [wrongly in my view] that the Mayor should be removed from the ballot for his minor paperwork omissions, then your point about Ms. Littrel now would have point and merit.
But he didn't.
who will watch the drama unfold tomorrow night at the CC mtg?
To brisco county jr,
A technicality because of a voting official's fault not her own, where as in Godfrey case, it was his own doing.
She did everything right (and above and beyond what I'm sure you had to do to vote), Godfrey on the other hand did not but the law yeilded to the intent. That was the right decision then and should be the right thought process when it comes to voting law as well.
Same decision should be made in this situation as happened in his case, the intent of the law should prevail.
I continue to be amazed that no one can see the irony of the Judge's dismissal of Littrell's suit.
The Mayor hired both the City Recorder and the City Attorney. That means he is their BOSS.
The Ogden City Code requires that a voter must file a complaint with the Recorder to ask that the Mayor's records be looked at before a citizen can use any other means of getting answers. The Recorder in turn has to ask the City Attorney for an opinion.
Neither of these Ogden City officials were about to ask their boss for his financial records because he would have fired them both. That is why the City Attorney found nothing wrong.
Even though in his opinion he found no basis for the numerous complaints that Littrell filed he should have asked for the records.
That would have absolved the Mayor of any hanky-panky. Instead the City Attorney dismissed the complaints and now we will never know whether the Mayor was up front and righteous or not.
That was the basis for the Littrell suit which the Ogden City Code requires in order for a citizen to try to get answers because the City Recorder and the City Attorney are never going to turn over their boss no matter how crooked he might turn out to be.
The brief summary of the City Code is that a citizen doesn't have the proverbial snowball's chance in Hades to get that to ever happen.
No wonder Littrell filed the lawsuit. It was all about the principle of open government.
What I don't get is why some of you keep jumping on her for doing what needed to be done.
Thick:
And how did that suit turn out? Was it successful? Was what she hoped would be revealed revealed? Did the decision go her way? It seemed then, and in light of how it all turned out, seems now to have been ill-advised, ill-timed and to have had little chance of prevailing on the merits. Not to mention that she was seeking as a remedy the removal from the ballot of one of the two candidates the voters had placed on the ballot in the primary. Overturning the decision of the voters, at the polls, should not be lightly done by the courts.
What seems equitable now, to me, is that the same standard should be applied to the challenged voters in the run-off election: that their will [and possibly as a result the will of the electorate expressed at the polls] should not be interfered with for minor technical problems in the paper work the challenged voters should not, most of them, have had to file in the first place. Respecting the plainly expressed will of the voters... all fo them... should be as powerful a factor in deciding the matter now before the County election officials as it was in the judge's decision in the Littrel suit.
It may not work out that way. But it should. I find it interesting that Mayor Godfrey's representatives are [reportedly] attempting to have a significant number of votes disallowed for minor paperwork glitches in filling out the provisional voter applications they would not have had to fill out at all but for the actions of his campaign staff. But then, he's a Republican. Par for the course for his ilk.
A nice editorial from the SE editorial board this morning. First, the SE questions whether Godfrey is telling the truth when he says he did not know in advance that his supporters had put together a challenge list of 150 or so names. "IF that's the case (that Godfrey didn't know) shame on that thin slice of his supporters." Unfortunately, the SE only implied what should have followed - if the mayor did know then shame on him. What I want to know is does the SE want to change its "recommendation" at this point?
A bit further down the SE indirectly calls Fowers unAmerican, writing: "Making it difficult for voters to cast their ballots runs contrary to what it means to be an American." Finally, the SE notes the problems with both ill-informed county election officials, and the state election laws that makes the challenge provision vulnerable to abuse.
On the other hand, the editorial commits a grammatical error ("whom" for "who") in the very first sentence.
Meanwhile, the Grondahl cartoon was priceless. What I'm dying to know is which would Sharon prefer for mayor: Godfrey or Gore?
Cato:
What the editorial did notcomment upon was the reported involvement of Godfrey representatives in attempting to have many provisional ballots disallowed. If that is true, his public "oh, my, mercy me, why I had no idea" stance becomes, in my view, substantially less credible.
As you note, the editorial is right on [ah, the sixties arise yet again in my prose!] about the apparently less-than-sufficiently-rigorous training of the poll workers. And about the need for the legislature to look again at the ease with which large numbers of challenges can be brought for, apparently, purely political reasons.
I'd disagree with the editorial in one regard: its claim that if a significant number of provisional ballots are disallowed, the challenges will have been justified. That depends entirely on the reasons for disallowing them. If they are disallowed because it turned out the putative voters were in fact not eligible to vote in the precincts involved, then yes, the challenges will have been justified. But if significant votes are disallowed because of paper work or poll worker errors [box with birth date left unfilled in, information put in wrong box, voter told to sign, or not sign, the wrong list at the polls, etc.], then that will in no way justify the challenges since they resulted only from the extra paperwork required as a result of the partisan challenges in the first place.
Overall, a decent editorial, but the SE Board seems to have trouble bringing such political editorials all the way home. They come close, but fade down the stretch. After lining one off the wall in deep center, they stumble rounding third. Having made it to the editorial red zone, so to speak, they can't drive their point across the goal line.
[OK, OK, painfully cliche'd metaphors, but hey, the TV Pundit Class uses sports metaphors to explain American politics constantly. I wanted to play too.]
Lots of chewy stuff in today's SE:
First, there's the editorial discussed above.
Next, is a very interesting Trentelman column on the impact of rising gas prices on a local small businessman.
And finally, a storyabout another manufacturing company [Heritage Bag] moving to Ogden, to the Industrial Park this time, and bringing jobs with it.
Curm:
Good points about the editorial.
It's becoming clear that this situation is quite a bit more complex than most people (including the S-E editorial board) seem to realize. Just look at the numbers: 147 challenged voters, but over 500 provisional ballots.
I've looked at the challenged voter list and done a bit of asking around. Based on this unscientific research, my guess is that virtually everyone on the list was once eligible to vote in Ogden but that most of them have recently moved. Quite a few have moved out of Ogden and I have no reason to believe that any of these attempted to vote in Ogden. Some of those who still live in Ogden didn't attempt to vote, and others succeeded in voting electronically. Bottom line is I'd be surprised if more than 50 of the provisional ballots were cast by people on the challenged voters list.
The large majority of the provisional ballots have nothing whatsoever to do with the voter challenge list. In most cases, these are people who showed up at the polls and found that their names weren't in the poll book. So they presented their ID and cast provisional ballots. Why weren't these people in the poll books? Some may have never registered to vote. Others may have moved recently. Perhaps the county clerk's office dropped some voters from the register by mistake. Now it's up to the county to decide which of these people were actually eligible to vote. Remember that to be eligible to vote, you can be registered anywhere in the state; you don't have to be registered in your current precinct of residence but you do have to vote there. (If you vote in the wrong precinct but the ballot is still one that you're legally entitled to cast, then it's supposed to be counted.)
Inevitably, lots of the provisional ballots are going to be tossed out. Does this mean that the voter challenges were valid? Almost certainly not, because most of the invalid ballots will be people who weren't on the voter challenge list. Most of them will be people for whom the county clerk can't find any voter registration record. And others may be tossed on the basis of technicalities like missing signatures and birthdates.
To vindicate the challenges you would have to find credible evidence of attempted voter fraud. So far I've heard no hint of any such evidence.
Dan:
GORE??? GORE????
What a bore...
listening to that voice
What a snore.
GODFREY??? GODFREY???
That lying sneak named Matt..
Better to knock him out of the park
With an oversized baseball bat!
If Susan doesn't take the votes
Then get Alex Jensen from Layton
to raise our hopes.
C'mon, Sharon, answer the question. If you had to choose between Godfrey and Gore, which would it be?
Curm and Dan, you are correct in your critique of the SE's claim that if lots of provisional ballots are tossed then that vindicates the challenge by Fowers, since of course most of the provisional ballots were not the result of Fowers' challenge list. And yes, the SE editorial could have been much more forceful - attempting a field goal rather than going for the TD as Curm suggested. But hey, the SE usually doesn't even get the ball inside the twenty.
Fact is, there is little evidence of wide-scale voter fraud in this country, yet those who put together challenge lists tend to try and cite that as the reason for their list, when in fact their challenge list is simply an underhanded ploy to try and suppress votes for their opponents. Take a look back at googleboy's excellent link on this issue.
Bishop again fails to support constituents
Monday, November 12, 2007
The voucher vote not only reminds us again that our dark Legislature is out of touch, but it also carries a message for Top of Utah voters. The message is that Rep. Rob Bishop makes no effort to represent the majority of his constituents. His appearance on pro-voucher TV ads when his federal office has nothing to do with the state issue shows no extreme cause moves without him even though it's counter to the majority view of his constituents.
Bishop's ad was on top of his being the only political leader in Utah who did not oppose the big bomb Divine Strake. He takes a soft stand on nuclear waste here. He was one of very few who voted against creating the phone sales "Do not call" list created so we could eat dinner in peace.
Put on top of that record that he is a quarterback for the movement to keep guns in churches, and we have to wonder exactly what does he think he is elected to do?
There is no question the majority of Utah voters are opposite him on all of these issues.
I suggest that if we are going to dutifully vote for the Republican no matter what, there ought to be some attempt to find one who pretends to work for us, not against us at every opportunity.
Greg Sanders
Kaysville
Ogden Resident....she did everything right except put her d.o.b. Not to mention, publicly use 3 addresses over the past year, one out of the City.
But that wasn't my point, in fact I had no point other than to comment that this crap so funny I don't think someone could write it. And if it was made into a movie, it would be almost too much disbelief to suspend.
Someone more versed in the law will determine whether or not her vote counts, not me.
Jason: Good casting.
Dan....if the two were our only choice....I'd, like, gulp, (would I have to reregister and make Curm happy to have one more Democrat? (Y'all do need shoring up)
I'd have to say Mayor Gore. Besides, he actually looks more fit and handsome in the cartoon. 'Sides, I kinda like Tipper...and she doesn't like Hillary. A real plus. Gore doesn't like Hillary, either, so that's two plusses, eh?
Also, Gore is so incredibly annoying and boring to listen to, that the Council would be snoring and Jesse would wake up, bang the gavel, and the dozing crowd and startled Council could all go home early! What's not to love?
I'm from Fl, so if there's any problem with this vote, remember that I left there years ago! Before I ever knew a chad, hung or otherwise.
dan,
As I said in response to Curm's question about the voter lists, they are fairly untouched. It would surprise me if any voters are ever purged from lists unless the county gets a request to move a voter from one precinct to another. I noted that there were many voters on the list I had that I knew had moved, including my daughter. Would submitting a list of these people to the county clerk so that they would be challenged if they tried to vote in their old precinct be wrong?
If the challenge list was completely without basis, then I would agree that it would be wrong. But if as you say the majority (you suggest 2/3rds) had actually moved and/or did not attempt to vote, then I am not sure I would call that worng. Of course if the other 1/3 had no ligitimate basis then I would agree that is a problem.
As for the training, it is hard to get enough poll workers to begin with let alone get them all trained to an superior level. They even pay them for the training days and attendance is still not what they would like. Would increasing the amount of pay help? Maybe but that also is going to increase your taxes or cut spending in other areas, for something that makes a difference very rarely. How many times prior to the 2000 election had you ever heard of hanging chads?
arcritic,
I think the large majority of people on the challenge list had moved recently. That doesn't mean that a majority moved out of Ogden, or even that a majority moved into a different municipal ward where they would be voting a different ballot. I see no legitimate reason to challenge someone who merely moved within the city. Challenging someone who moved out of the city is usually harmless, but it's also needless unless you really think these people will fraudulently try to come back into Ogden to vote. I know one example (actually two--a married couple, both students) who moved out of Ogden for the summer and then moved back. They were on the challenge list. Fortunately, after they produced proper ID they were allowed to vote electronically.
Arcritic,
If you were a judge, then you should know that you have a section in the book to list those who have moved, are deceased, etc.
This helps the County keep a record current. So, no,it isn't wrong. I used to asterik a person's name so that a worker would check the back of the book and note the status of a name that should be removed for whatever reason.
Judges are well trained. Some of the people who show up just don't bring brain power with them! Also, I know for a fact that sometimes people are called in to be judges who have no training!
Maybe it would be a good idea for our 'lutrous paper to give some guidelines to voters, so that they know to ask for a provisional ballot, and under what circumstances, and also to speak up for themselves!
This was a debacle solely engineered by Godfrey and his minions....he wants results, so he should not have shown how scared he is that he trampled all over Constituional rights. I hope Boyer or R & O will hire him. A hod carrier, f'r instance?
It occurs to me that when Matt is turned out of office, all those guys he gave millions to to come here and make him look good, don't want him in their organizations because they know he's a crooked sleazeball, and that's how he got so many of them here!
I'm willing to wager that when Matt can no londer do favors, he won't see the Dowse's and others sitting with him at the Rotary luncheons. He and Ed can share a table back by the kitchen door. A pariah.
So, Dan....who you want? Gore or Godfey???????
brisco county jr:
I'll give you Dorothy Littrell, just so we can keep this discussion going.
Explain the other 145.
arcritic, I would gladly pay more in taxes in order to make sure that our election process works better. By your post, I'm guessing you would not. How sad. Apparently if democracy costs too much, you don't want it.
The other 145 had moved....when I moved I re-registered....I thought you were supposed to.
Turns out you should.
Godfrey has made it clear that he is using Attorney's to fight to keep his elected position.
Now the Utah Supreme Court can appoint him to be the next Mayor of Ogden.
Well, Dan....are you pondering?
Yo Curmudgeon
You inquired about water history in Utah a bit back.
There is a supplement in today's (Tuesday) Tribune and DNews that is a pretty good primer on the subject. It has several articles and a good water shed map in it. I tried to find it on the web but couldn't. It is entitled "Working with Nature" and is worth buying a hard copy.
Sharon,
Yes, I was pondering...the energy levels of a hydrogen atom. Believe it or not, I do take a break from wcforum to teach a class once in a while!
Your question is too easy. I voted for Gore for President in 2000. I'd take him for mayor over Godfrey any day. So on this, Sharon, I believe we agree.
brisco county jr:
I know for a fact you are a liar, sir. I know many of the people on the list. They hadn't all moved.
Are you saying Jesse Garcia moved, or were you just tingly with Spidey-Sense when you put his name on the list?
And one more question: when you sent the funeral flowers to Ms. Littrell, which address did you use? Just curious.
News flash: I've just heard that the ballot counting won't be finished until around 7 pm tonight. That would be during the city council meeting so I'm not sure what happens to the board of canvassers meeting.
Jim and Brisco:
The voter challenge list was presumably made through the use of "caging", i.e., sending mail to each voter's registered address and seeing which items are returned by the post office. (The mail must be of a type that the post office will not forward.) In most cases, if the mail is returned, it means the person has moved. But it could also mean that the person was having mail forwarded or stopped for some other reason such as a vacation.
Yeah, when you move you're supposed to tell the county so they can update your voter registration information. But you're still legally entitled to vote even if you don't tell them. I suspect that when people move a short distance they rarely bother to tell the county because they would normally still vote in the same location.
"News flash: I've just heard that the ballot counting won't be finished until around 7 pm tonight...
"so I'm not sure what happens to the board of canvassers meeting."
What the council does is "table" the matter. Tonight is NOT a canvass Board drop-dead date.
founding father said...
arcritic, I would gladly pay more in taxes in order to make sure that our election process works better. By your post, I'm guessing you would not. How sad. Apparently if democracy costs too much, you don't want it.
Actually, in budget discussions in my town, we were discussing a tax increase which I eventually voted against. But when we were discussing the recorders budget for elections, I specifically stated that I would be willing to raise taxes to make sure we used the electronic voting machines and held the best election possible. But I also look at things with an eye to frequency and severity. The frequency that there is drama like this in an election is extremely low, while the severity when it happens is extremely high. So you have to figure out a balance. Personally, I am in favor of more spending on administration of elections not less. Maybe we should put a tax on the spending of candidates/PACs/PICs/Parties to raise additional funds for the administration of elections.
As for the board of canvass time requirements, I believe they are required to certify the final vote count 'not sooner than 7 days, nor later than 14 days after an election.' So they have another week to vote on it. But either way the final count should be known as soon as the county finishes the count. There is no reason they would need to keep that out of the public forum.
founding father said...
arcritic, I would gladly pay more in taxes in order to make sure that our election process works better. By your post, I'm guessing you would not. How sad. Apparently if democracy costs too much, you don't want it.
Actually, in budget discussions in my town, we were discussing a tax increase which I eventually voted against. But when we were discussing the recorders budget for elections, I specifically stated that I would be willing to raise taxes to make sure we used the electronic voting machines and held the best election possible. But I also look at things with an eye to frequency and severity. The frequency that there is drama like this in an election is extremely low, while the severity when it happens is extremely high. So you have to figure out a balance. Personally, I am in favor of more spending on administration of elections not less. Maybe we should put a tax on the spending of candidates/PACs/PICs/Parties to raise additional funds for the administration of elections.
As for the board of canvass time requirements, I believe they are required to certify the final vote count 'not sooner than 7 days, nor later than 14 days after an election.' So they have another week to vote on it. But either way the final count should be known as soon as the county finishes the count. There is no reason they would need to keep that out of the public forum.
Ozboy:
I found that water insert in the SL Trib this morning at my off campus office [Grounds for Coffee]. I thought it was a really good job, but I wasn't quite sure who it was aimed it. It was funded by the Newspapers In Education program, I think, which suggest it was aimed at school use, but I thought it was pitched pretty high for that. It is the sort of thing that, probably, Ogden's Water Horizon's meeting coming up should have available to everyone who shows up. In fact, I think I'll suggest that to some Council members.
Under the general heading of "life goes on, no matter who's mayor," thought I'd bring this article in the SL Trib to folks attention. Here's the headline: Draper proposes landslide ordinance for developers
Here are the opening graphs:
Developers scrambling to stake their claims for Draper's million-dollar views are flocking to the city's steep hilltops. But some City Council members, worried about growing concerns over landslides, are running to the books to rewrite the rules. Some worry that home building in Salt Lake Valley's southeast end is headed down a slippery slope. They want to slow the rush on Draper's pristine slopes with a new rule that would tighten restrictions on exactly where and how development could occur to protect residents' health and safety.
But some developers, who already have signed on to agreements with the city, say the council might violate contracts if it adds potentially pricey requirements. In question: a geologic-hazards ordinance that would force developers to increase coordination with the city on more-intense studies - an effort to reduce the odds that landslides, or other disasters, would harm human life or property.
Councilman Paul Edwards, who helped draft the proposed ordinance, called it "the best in the state, if not in a much wider region." He said it would apply to all developers, adding that the city should be protected by the document's health and safety clauses.
There's much more in the article, worth reading I think. And since Ogden is now working on a revision of slope construction zoning, and especially since Our Mayor Du Jour has recently noticed that the land east of the city is not flat, and is in fact so sloped that building hundreds of Vacation Villa Homes on the city owned portion of it would never work, what's happening --- or not happening --- in Draper might be well worth keeping an eye on. In case Hizzonah, if he should be re-elected, looks east and manages somehow to reviews his views on just how sloped that land is once the last ballot is counted.
Jim you sir are a bit edgy aren't you?
Liar huh? Well if I lied it was certainly not intentional, but you being an a-hole certainly seems intentional.
I didn't say anything about Dorthy other than the whole episode is comedic. Also, the list I saw in the Standard, each had a different address listed for each voter challenged. I didn't see Jesse on that list, but I only quickly glanced at it.
Of course my panties are in the same wad as yours so you can comb over it with a fine tooth comb and get back to me, okay?
Curm:
The people of Draper should just shut up; and just be for "less government" like the people in Ogden.
The people of Draper should just give all that land to Mayor Godfrey and Chief Greiner and their buddies.
I am not gay. I have nevefr been gay
I know a gay person when I see one. Republican Senator Craig is not gay.
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=2144748
well, ksl announced godfey as the winner. Dorrene was the only one to vote no to certifying the election.
the little crook couldn't contain his victory smile....he's so sickening to look at.
as i walked out, and was talking to some people, some young guy kept hanging around..he said to me " protesting just makes you look like a bad sport"
I said...'who the *&^$#%^&* cares about that? I am a bad sport!"
sheesh...what an idiot. we should just roll over for the bad dog so we won't look like 'bad sports?"
whatever happened to principle!??
I personally don't think this is over...too much chicanery...it was not a clean election. now the godfreys', allens', geigers', dowse, and the rest of the sycophants will think they really do own ogden. any other 'bad sports' out there?
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