To get the ball rolling this afternoon, we'll highlight a Scott Schwebke story which we completely overlooked, as we did an obviously all-too-quick scan of the Standard-Examiner website early this morning. Thanks to a tip (coulda been a taunt) from alert reader Blaine Carl however, we're delighted to put the article up on the front page for reader discussion... at reader request, we'll add. Never let it be said that WCF doesn't bend over backwards to cater to its ever-gentle readers.
Ace Reporter Schwebke's lead paragraphs provide the gist of the story:
OGDEN — Construction may begin next month on a 95,000-square-foot WinCo Foods store that will anchor a new shopping center in Ogden.Check out Mr. Schwebke's full story here:
The Commons at Ogden will be built at the southwest corner of 12th Street and Wall Avenue, said Spencer Wright, an official with Wright Development, which is handling the shopping center project.
"Things are proceeding nicely, and the project looks good at this time," Wright said Tuesday.
The WinCo store will bolster retail business along the busy 12th Street and Wall Avenue corridor, said Tom Christopulos, the city’s business development manager.
"It’s an absolute home run. We are meeting each objective that we set out to do."
• Ogden WinCo project well under wayThe "Commons Project," along with the associated WinCo Foods mega-store franchise, has been the subject of much previous reader comments discussion on Weber County Forum. Perhaps it's now time to pick up the conversation again.
Who will be the first to comment?
(You have the floor, Mr. Carl.)
Well...?
72 comments:
This is interesting langugage from today's Schwebke article:
Last year, the Ogden City Council reallocated up to $1 million in capital improvement project funds to clean up contaminated soil from underground fuel-storage tanks and remove asbestos from buildings on the Commons at Ogden property.
Environmental cleanup costs at the site are expected to total about $750,000, Christopulos said.
The underground fuel tanks at the site belonged to the Dairy Farmers of America. The city will seek reimbursement from that organization to replenish the capital improvement project fund.
Ogden city apparently went out on a limb and did $1 mil or so in site cleanup.
How many years will it take, if ever, to recoup these taxpayer paid cleanup costs?
Blaine:
I hope the new shopping center/food store takes off like gangbusters. But at this point, the developers are about to break ground. It's a long way from being a successful development. It will employ people in the construction, and that's good. Cautious optimism I can buy. But decreeing it already a success, as you seem to, before they break ground is another matter. Just a reminder, we had the same over-the-top can't-fall pre-building enthusiasm for the Reid condo block [now defunct], and for the Ernshaw condo block [still not done two years, I think, behind schedule], and for the River Project [aka vacant lot and abandoned house village many years after being announced].
So, while enthusiasm is appropriate, as is a degree of cautious optimism, counting chickens before they're hatched [and revenues before they're banked] is not.
I do hope that this new development succeeds, however it seems a bit risky to declare it a wild success so early in the game. After all, they have a WallMart Super Center 10 blocks to the north of their location and they are about to have another one 10 blocks to their south. Seems to me it might be a little difficult to get people to drive past these two giant and ruthless retail stores to shop at a completely unkown (to Utah) grocery store. WallMart does have a long history of driving competitors out with undercutting them on prices. They are not known to take many prisoners yaknow.
Time will tell, but I think your proclamation of success might be a little premature. Again, I hope you're right on this, Ogden needs a little help after these last few disastrous years with the incompetent mayor and his circle of empty suits in your vaunted BD department.
Blind blain, I don't recall any mention of asbestos and buildings in the Council meeting where the administration argued for the Cool Million. I don't want to spoil the dignified response that will come from disgusted, so I'll just ask you how if dairy residuals in the ground was the reason for this need, and assurance that the money could be recouped from the dairy guys, how will the City get it's money back for asbestos in other buildings?
Bill
I'm not sure that the ground pollution is dairy residuals. I think it is oil, gas and other petroleum products that is the nasty stuff that they are dealing with. The place used to be a trucking terminal as well as a dairy processing plant. They prepared the milk there and then shipped it out by tanker trucks. I used to have an uncle who drove trucks out of the place and I remember once taking a trip with him from the terminal to Evanston when I was about 12 or so. I remember a whole shit load of trucks at the place during that period of time (1950's and 60's)
Off topic here, but I just read about the new bilateral group that is advocating for reform in political redistricting. Something that is desperately needed in Utah.
This commission has brought together Peter Carroon and ex congressman Jim Hansen in agreement on this issue.
They are trying to bypass the hopelessly partisan and crooked state legislature that is very much against any one messing with their sole right to self perpetuate via redistricting.
The group is looking for a hundred thousand or so signatures to accomplish this. A very important thing that is desperately needed here in our pretty great one party state of Zion.
I strongly urge all WCF readers to get a petition at the below web site and collect as many signatures of qualified voters as you can.
This is the only way basic fairness will be accomplished on redistricting as the republican controlled legislature will absolutely not do this on their own.
http://fairboundaries.org/
Blaine Carl said...
But where, oh where, Weber County Forum, is the story about the WinCo Development, refered to as "The Commons," in today's Standard. After reading the article, it appears that our friend and gentle reader "DISGUSTED" can slip on down to The Junction, find a nice restaurant and order up the fired CROW....and then chow down. Looks like his thoughts about Ogden City Business Development, its paying to "clean up" the WinCo site, his gaufawing me about reimbursement, etc. has fallen prey to his lack of understanding and factuality regarding the BD Dept.
Such is the difference between emotional driven rants and factual alternative understanding posts.
Good on the BD Dept for lending the Wright Development a temporary hand, as Ogden is in dire need of this project and more of the same. Also, if memory serves me correct, I mentioned the developer was one of "means," and now that the name is out, check out Wright Development and you'll see that thewy are business orientred, true professionals, performers and very successful in their projects. Ogden should be proud to have them, proud of the BD for its cooperative working with Wrights, and move progressively forward in other well planned developments.
Disgusted, enjoy your lunch.
Blaine Carl
you truly show your ownership to this ill planned project with your heavy chest thumping. your comment pointed at me “Looks like his thoughts about Ogden City Business Development, its paying to "clean up" the WinCo site, his gaufawing me about reimbursement, etc. has fallen prey to his lack of understanding and factuality regarding the BD Dept.”
now let me recollect what was presented to the residents and the city council and as presented to the readers of the se. everyone was told that the city was going to do the clean up and that the city would then through legal action get reimbursed by dfa. thus suggesting that the city would have some chance of getting some if not all of the money back that was spent on the cleanup.
now you indicate that the cleanup involves not only for the dfa soil cleanup but also a substantial portion for asbestos cleanup. does the city likewise have someone to go after to seek reimbursement for the asbestos cleanup or is that money just a loss to the city or should I say another city handout to another developer or landowner. how much can we expect to actually see returned directly to the city coffers for the cleanup. from the article is doesn’t sound like much at all.
seems that the bd department mislead the city council and the residents again as to how much money we were going to get back directly. i know youre now going to tell me in your response about increased property taxes and sales tax revenues but youre not going to mention that if the stop and shop located just three blocks way closes by this development action what the city is going to loose in property taxes and sales tax revenues. have you never heard of cause and effect. as I said before zero net gain or possible net loss as the city tries to pay itself back for the cleanup costs out of the property taxes and sales tax revenues generated from the new development rather than having funds recovered from dfa or the party responsible for the asbestos.
as for wright development i did look them up on google and i need your help. there are only 10 pages of companies called wright development. which one is it. but if they are as strong a developer as you are alluding to then why couldn’t they have funded the cleanup costs themselves. ill tell you why because you bd guys only know how to sell something worth a dollar for 92 cents.
as for your comment “Good on the BD Dept for lending the Wright Development a temporary hand”. lets call it what it is a handout.
good to have you posting again this is fun.
Oz:
See this link.
Disgusted:
This should give you a good start.
I jsut spent 20 minutes writing a nice post in response to ya'll, but something happened and it was erased by something called "Blogger Support."
Too bad, for I had all the answers for Disgusted, Curmudgeon, Bill C, Ozboy, Rudizink and the rest. I'm worn out so I'll get with this first thing in the a.m.
And yes, Disgusted, this is fun. Now we can discuss Capital Improvement Projects, Capital Improvement Funds that are budgetary items already approprioated for developments such as this and repairs to existing propeties like the Union Station, and more.
Like the EXTENDS ad says: "This might be fun!"
Get you combat boots opn and your pencils sharpened. Blaine's back!
One other thing. Wasn't there a little something about some hotel Godfrey wants to build in The Junction?
That should also be a fun discussion.
In fact, "This WILL be fun."
Remember, the one common thread that all of these proposals and developments have is the CED Dept. of Business Development. It's those guys who man the helm and steer this beautiful ship we all sail in called OGDEN!
Blaine:
In re: the BD guys who "man the helm and steer this beautiful ship we sail in called Ogden." You might want to find a different image. On this morning's trek de bean with Stupid Dog, on the way to turnaround coffee [and dog biscuit] at Peloton's, we passed the vast and vacant lot known as the River Project, tastefully bordered on the west by boarded up abandoned homes [the as yet unburnt ones anyway]. Had I read your post first, I'm sure terms like "run aground" would have come to mind. Maybe "steering the ship" isn't quite the image you want just now.
PS: friendly advice. Always block and copy your text just before you try to post it. If it gets eaten, all you have to do to replace it is hit "paste." Learned that the hard way....
BC
Had that problem my self a few times (da blog eating my post that is). It is really maddening especially after spending a half hour crafting a masterpiece. Enough to piss off the pope, if he blogs that is. Mr. Curmudgeon has the fix though.
Looking forward to reading your whitewash of the bd department that so many in Ogden thinks is no more than an insider bunch of incompetent hacks who keep their high paying jobs by stroking the mayor's ego.
Incidentally, the several members of that group that I have met in person seemed like pretty nice guys, especially Harmer and Glassman, neither of whom are still there. I also met ex member Brown a few times and found him to be interesting, quite bright and personable but very machiavellian. It is just too bad that they take their marching orders from the most incompetent, dishonest and hubris laden "leader" in Utah history - mayor Godfrey. They may even be the masters of the universe you claim them to be if they had decent and honest leadership.
Block, copy and paste-great advice and a big thank you, Curmudgeon. And I thought I had written a "masterpiece," as Ozboy quotes, but upon reflection over morning coffee, I may have been a bit over emotional in my response to the other responses over my initial post gloating about the crow eating Disgusted in a Junction restaurant over the Winco project that's being called "The Commons."
Damn, there's some redundancy and verbage run amuck.
Anyhow, now to move on: as for claiming the WinCo project to be a huge success, this early in the game, my meaning is over the development itself....the fact that WinCo, through the Wright Development Company, chose Ogden over other cities in which to locate it's new complex. To me, that's a success, "an absolute home run," as Christopulos says, because of what this development will do for Ogden. Both the Wrights and WynCo are winners, professionally, financially, ethically, et al. WinCo will attract tenants and employees, will pay sales and property taxes for years to come, as opposed to what the City is now reaping for this corridor of dilapidation. And I'm not forgetting, as Curmudgeon, Disgusted and others often bring up, that there are some struggling projects in Ogden, like the yet to be built-out River Project that Curmudgeon viewed while taking his morning coffee at Pelotone's, a part of that yet to be completed project (interesting analogy that-maybe we should realize that some of these projects take a step at a time to complete, just like a 12 Step program takes a day at a time for recovery to occur, yet it succeeds, if done right). And another thought, we're not dealing with Gadi here, we're dealing with the Wright's and WinCo (but to give Gadi his due, he did play a major role in the acquisition of WalMart in Ogden-yes, he did have some help but he did put much on the line, including his time and money, and for this we'll have a tax paying giant in town that will serve many, many people, instead of having them go to Harrisville, etc.).
End....Part I
Start-Part II
And now, back to the topic at hand: also of note, neither WalMart nor the Winco development is dealing with TIF, and I've yet to hear any applause over that. There's plenty of criticism when TIF projects arise, but there's rarely, if ever, any praise when a developer does it on his own nickle. Do you guys get to have it both ways? Is there no tip of the hat for a developer like the Wright Development Company who comes in, improves an area, and brings us a giant through its own efforts and dollars, even considering that we MIGHT be in this deal some money (this 750 is but a drop in the bucket compared to what WinCo will bring--and we have the chance to recover it back).
Now, as for this Stop & Shop store that WinCo MIGHT run out of business nonsense. Where the hell did that logic come from? If we had always used that criteria, there would be no growth or progress in Ogden, from the git go. From Ogden's initial buildings and businesses, no other building or business would have been allowed or wanted in town, out of fear that the new guy might put the old guy out of business. Disgusted, you should really re-think this premise, as you but only have to look at what is now on the Wall Avenue corridor and what will be there come the future. Remember, we thrive on competition, and if you're afraid of that, you shouldn't get in the game. If you are so concerned about the location of a store locating in the area of that store, you only need to look at the fast food giants: Wendy's searches for McDonalds and builds across from them, followed by Arby's, Burger King, Taco Time, etc. It's the competition that allows for the choice of where the customer might go. All of these businesses serve to bring people in....some with specific destinations, others with unspecific desinations who just want to get to the area and once there they make up their minds where to spend their dollars (ever go to the Miller Theater Complex and decide which movie to see once you're there?) The same is true of Home Depot, WalMart, Target, et al. Disgusted, you just have to get over the fact that these effects will happen and the strong and imaginative will survive....from the entertainment business (theaters, night clubs, dance and roller rinks to the major league shopping giants).
Suddenly, I'm somewhat nervous about the possibility of the this now feared "blog-eater" arriving, so I'll block, copy and maybe paste and end THIS session here. But we still have much to discuss, from the CED/BD (still say they are good guys), to the Capital Improvement Projects list (including Capital Improvements Financing) and so on.
This is fun, isn't it?
The people making a difference today in Ogden, a positive difference, are the people who invested their own dollars in the community years ago, did it right and stuck to it, and now run successful retail, financial, and service businesses.
Retailers on 25th come to mind, some new, some quite well established, but there are numerous successes from Rainbow Gardens in the north east, to Bombay Grill out south west, to a host of people out in the industrial, going about their daily lives, making payroll, making a profit.
The people who want to bring in outside dollars, clean up blight, add amenities? The opinion is sure, do it. Just don't "mismanage the good idea right out of it", and don't raise my taxes unnecessarily to get your poorly managed ideas enacted.
Run yours like I run mine, and stop asking for handouts,
After reading the banner headline of pg.8c of today's Standard Examiner, "Utah job losses shocking," which means 20,000 more lost jobs than previously thought, this forum should be standing up and applauding the Business Development Department, Wright Development and WinCo for this project. Not only will its building create jobs, but the complex itself will add new employees to the picture, lessing our burden on paying into unemployment funds.
We should quit whinning about a few tax dollars going toward the support of these projects and understand that we do some good by investing in ourselves. Remember, many of those dollars have already been set aside in governmental budgets for just that reason.
I'm happy to see that this new thread is somewhat tied to the old thread that was winding itself around this blog a week or ten days ago. Made for good reading and was very thought provoking.
Actually, Joe, you analysis falls flat under current accepted economic stats.
When a city pays to get a business to re-locate, on final analysis the amount that the city pays in services and infrastructure to that business is far greater than the amount the business brings in in promised jobs and taxes.
This "pay to play" attitude that was so rampant as box stores crept across the nation, has beed replaced in most citys with caution and a "you pay as you go, and get your business off of the tax payers back", attitude.
I hope tha Weber County is not the last metro to discover: if you want good jobs, real growth, and low property taxes, encourage businesses to relocate, but dont give them a flat penny. If they are golden, they can pay their own way.
Not be a burden today, promising "high paying jobs" and big tax dollars in the next business cycle.
Common knowledge over at the Business School; one thinks someone has need to go back there.
Excellent post, Rockford J.
You're definitely "on a roll" this morning, with no fewer than four WCF posts, in this and other WCF article comments sections.
Right wing socialist "Joe" needed a correction; and you handed it to him in spades.
Thanks!
Blaine
Interesting stuff you put forth. I think you might be raising the intellectual bar here on the WCF, at least a little bit. Big Ben in the sky certainly knows we need it now and then.
However, I would like to point out you are mistaken about the folks on this blog ignoring the TIF angles here. Granted it may not have been discussed on this particular Winco deal, but if you have been following this blog for very long you would know that the RDA TIF abuse has been a very hot and constant topic for several years now. Most folks hereabouts have been very much against these boodoggles that exist only because of TIF (the junction comes to mind), while we have been constant in advocating for and praising projects that do it with their own money and don't put the tax payers at risk. Unfortunately there have been precious few project brought forth by the Godfreyites that do not rely heavily on tax payer handouts and risk taking.
Your vaunted BD department has been dealing almost exclusively with a whole string of shaky projects that are highly doubtful as to their economic viability without TIF, and which have put the tax payers of Ogden in a very deep and dangerous financial hole. It is refreshing to see that this one actually may be built on its own economic merits.
As I wrote before, I do hope that this project succeeds (god knows the tax payers of Ogden could use a winner), but I am very doubtful that it will given the two lurking WallyMart predators that bookend them. There are only so many shopping dollars in the community and there is a store brand loyalty with most customers that will slant heavily in favor of Smiths, Albertsons, Harmons, etc. Wally himself had a hell of a time overcoming this in the Utah market and would most likely not have made it here if they didn't have such incredibly deep pockets and initial cheap prices. It is one hell of a tough and saturated market these guys are throwing their hat into, one dominated currently by some pretty big and ruthless sharks.
Do you have any info on how Winco has done against Wally and the other large predators in other markets? Seems like that might be stuff the BD guys have researched.
Actually, Rockford, I didn't advocate "Paying to get a business to relocate." I mentioned that a few dollars tossed into the mix by a municipality to AID a project's coming to town isn't such a bad thing. Such seems to be the case with the WinCo development. This thing will cost millions to do and Ogden's stake is a reimburseable, up front 750K, which even if we don't get back will be offset by increased property and sales taxes and make the gamble a worthy risk.
Business school? Right wing socialism? Naw, just a difference of economic and political philosophy in a small but important scheme of things.
By the way, Mr. R., they have classes in those too, something you should probably look into. You have to read the whole message.
I find it somewhat heartwarming that a business that is coming to Ogden seems to be reliable. That is a definite change from many of the previous and some current developers the mayor has aligned Ogden city with. I disagree with the posters that say 750k is a drop in the bucket and just a few dollars. That is real money provided by Ogden taxpayers and we have every right to be concerned and want a full and accurate accounting.
Yeah, a mere 750,000.00, "tossed in to aid a project coming to town".
Parse away with what you call your giveaway to businesses. They are not even here yet, and they already want handouts from the city government.
How about this?
They are not getting a cent of my money. They need AID let them pull themselves up by their own bootstraps. Its called, "get er done, not do it fer".
Being involved in some tasks, today, I can't, at this time, post some of my afore mentioned points regarding the CED/BD and CIP/CIF. But later we will most likely have a lively discussion regarding same.
However, I must respond to Mr. Ozboy and thank him for his kind words that I'm "raising the intellectual bar here on the WCF." You put me in esteemed company, Ozboy, for many of those who post here seem to be people of intellect with sound ideas, even though they sometimes vary from my own. Again, your words are appreciated. Maybe we'll meet and have lunch someday.
That being said, I must disagree with you when you disagreed with me about TIF. I know the feeling of the people on this blog as it pertains to TIF. Even I, at times, don't think that TIF is always the way to go, but it does have its place if administered PROPERLY. I raised this point due TO THE FACT that the WinCo project is not using TIF yet NOTHING was said about that fact in any way, shape or form here.
One other thing: Mr. Zink, I appreciate your using the word "taunt" when I first brought this WinCo subject to light. Days before, in that one thread that seemed to generate so much BD discussion, I siad I would also eliminate the "flame jobs," and I think I have. But I couldn't resist a good natured "taunt" over a little crow eating directed at our friend and gentile reader Mr. Disgusted. There is a difference between taunts and flaming, and I'm sure this taunt of mine won't lead to a fire fight.
Good reading and good posting, people. I'm looking forward to some good debate, later on.
Blaine
I think some folks hereabouts assumed the Winco deal was just another in a long line of RDA TIF, giveaway the store, Godfreyite loser schemes. I know I did till you set us straight on it. Has the Winco non TIF deal been advertised or discussed as such locally?
Had we known these guys were going it sans TIF and on their own dime, I'm sure a lot of us would have applauded that. We'ze just simply luvs real players that roll their own bankroll here in the land of Oz. On the other hand we don't think too highly of the mass of moochers, with their greasy palms out to the tax payers, that our dear leader Godfrey seems to be so enamored with.
I agree with you on the TIF thing being good if administered PROPERLY. However, I think that is a very narrow window that for the most part does not exist here in Zion except in a very few situations where true blight exists.
As you probably know, blight, and the cleaning up of it, is what TIF is actually supposed to be about. It is meant to clean up inner city areas that are extremely blighted and for the most part have abandoned properties with no owners to lean on to clean them up. At least that was the original purpose. But like most things in gummint, the whole concept has been distorted and abused by wanna be tycoons like Mr. Godfrey and his circle of sycophants. In Utah, which is under the domination of the real estate and development gangsters, blight is pretty much anything any political hack wants it to be. There have actually been cases where nice green pastures have been declared blight in order to qualify for the good old free money scheme that TIF has turned into.
Lunch? sounds like a something doable. I get to Ogden every once in a while, when they leave my cell door unlocked and I can sneak out that is. If you ever pass through Farm-A-Ton we might meet up here.
The bugeted amount is $1,000,000, and the stated source and purpose was to clean up ground waste from the dairy bunch.
This project involves more than the old dairy property and the clean-up costs seem to include more than ground contamination.
Blain seems to be avoiding answering the very direct question. How does the City recover money spent on cleaning up what the dairy guys aren't responsible for?
As for the newly quoted lower figure,$750,000, we've been down that road before, cost estimates from this administration almost always have been remarkably off, way below what winds up being the reality.
I'll take a wait and see, on this one as well.
The "newly quoted lower figure, $750,000" IS NOT a newly quoted lower figure. It's the figure used by Tom Christopulos in yesterday's newspaper article. The City Council REALLOCATED up to $1,000,000 in Capital Improvement Project Funds to clean up contaminated soils, asbestos, etc.
The CIFs (Cap Imp Funds) are budgetary items, the money already earmarked for clean up, etc., and the "soils," "asbestos" and so forth are but items used for descriptive purposes, Mr. C. Don't get your panties in a know over trying to make some big deal out of the verbage and wording of what's to be cleaned up.
Understanding what CIPs are, how they come about and how they're budgeted and the money allocated will help. This will be discussed later tonight, along with a few other tidbits.
Good to hear from you Bill C. Keep swinging those Pings and relax just a little. This is a good project, no TIF and no secret, smoke filled back room meetings.
Ya gotta believe in something. Maybe this is it.
Bottom Line:
If the Winco Plaza development is a snapping success, the money may turn out to have been a good investment by Ogden city. If the Winco Plaza development is not a conspicuous success, it may turn out to have been a poor investment for the city. The point is, just as the builders are breaking ground, there is no earthly way to know which of those it will turn out to be. Annoying though it often is, we're just going to have to wait and see how it all plays out. Blaine's chirping belief that it's already a successful project is no more supportable on the evidence at this point than the dire predictions of others that the two flanking WalMarts will sink the whole thing.
Ultimate success or not, in the short run it will create construction jobs in the area and that at least is a good thing.
Nice duck blain, asbestos never came up in the discussion with the Council seeking this expeniture, and for that matter neither did the buildings. Your attempting to assume it's all the same, it's not.
What this boils down to a million dollar gift to the developer, no it's not TIF, but it's surely a gift.
A safe bet would be that this recoup of the money will never happen and was never really intended. It would cost the City more to bring a suit than the cost of the ground contamination that the dairy guys would be liable for.
The asbestos in the buildings is not their liability.
Once again, nothing proposed or done by lying little matty's administration is void of dishonesty and deceit. Even though he's nowhere to be found, this BD bunch still seems to be guided by Scott Brown, integrety not required.
Blaine Carl
tif funds and cip funds are both tools that the city must employ properly and appropriately. the fact that tif funds were not used at the winco development does not mean that the city did not inappropriately use city funds that should have come from the developer or landowner. instead you are saying that the city used cip funds which are an even more direct use of city money. from what you’ve indicated the developer is more than capable of funding the cleanup and yet the city has injected $750,000 into this project with the return to the city coming from property tax and sales tax receipts. this will be a long time coming back to the city if ever. and again i say that because theres a good possibility that stop and shop may be a casualty of this development.
i like your casual position that you cant stand in the way of progress. hard for anyone to argue with that point me included. but let me question at the same time is this progress or just replacing one retailer with another. it might be a zero net gain.
tell us did the citys bd departments take on the responsibility of their position within the city. did they do a demographic and economic value study to determine whether the project would jeopardize any other tax paying businesses. i assure you that companies do this work all the time for themselves before they locate thus ensuring that their new location has the best chance of meeting their financial expectations. likewise the city should be doing the same to make sure that they are not just replacing one tax revenue source with another. has ogden performed one of these studies on this project.
as for cip funds i would like to point out that the union station had their budget severely cut so the bd department could continue to give money away to developers and landowners that don’t need it. the union station is in dire need of a new air conditioner and they had to compromise in their intended budget for window repairs not to mention they need a new boiler. and for how many years has the marshall white city been in need of a new boiler and several other repairs that have gone unfunded so the bd department could keep the gravy train rolling. interesting too that in the contract that the administration entered into with owcap that he managed to fund those repairs with the cip money.
just because the bd department didn’t use tif funds on this project doesn’t mean that it didn’t cost the city anything. it cost the resident $750,000 that the developer could have guppied up for if the department wasn’t so free with our money.
btw where were you in regards to the article on the junction.
Part I
Well boys, I suppose you need to UNDERSTAND Capital Improvement Projects, and their funding. In a broad sense, CIPs are any needed construction project that costs over 10K and that the City Council decides it wants to see improved. The projects come from a "wish list," made up from various City Departments (Planning, CED, Fire, etc.), the Administration and the citizens, most often those people who are involved in the 6 major Community Plans and various other neighborhood committees. This list is presented to the CC who then pairs it down and puts it into the budget. Things like sidewalk repairs, added and repaired water lines, animal shelter repairs and even the repairs to the roof of the Union Station CAN make the list, but it is the City Council that prioritizes this list and makes the final decision of projects, INCLUDING the BUDGETS for them. I suppose the language is a "cover-all" for what needs to be done on these CIPs, such as "remove asbestos," "soils clean-up," the "removal of USTs," (under ground storage tanks,) etc. It's no duck, Billie Boy, it's just the way the language has been written into the Ordinance and then the Budget. So please, attend more than a CC meeting now and then; try a couple of work sessions, read some of the Public Information that's available at the City Recorders Department and so on. Do a little more homework and research and what you learn might aid you in your protestations and provide you with better arguments and positions.
Granted, the Mayor can cut this list to projects that can be funded, but he can't just arbitrarily move the money around to make due for himself. The CC must vote on this in what's called a Budget Opening, since the CC has already voted on and passed the yearly Budget. Most of this is done between January and May.
Now, here's an interesting little tidbit: the repairs to the Union Station roof is a CIP, done with CIFs. The building is actually owned by the UPRR and is rented from the UPRR by Ogden City for $1.00 per year, which is then turned over to the Union Station Foundation for management and maintainance. And, there's an interesting caveat here--the building, and the other buildings owned by the UPRR that are leased to the City and provided to the USF, have to be used in a railroad fashion. If not, then those buildings must revert back to the original Grantor, Brigham Young. The City spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on this, until the Foundation took over, and its return was that the buildings were left standing and housed the Browning Museum and other railroad memorabilia. The USF bought the vacant Shupe Wms. land, after the fire, and plans are to turn that area into overflow parking for events.
Part II
As for Winco, the project was having a tough time penciling out and to make it go, which if you REALLY take a look at what The Commons can offer our city (Curmudgeon, AGAIN, the success I feel is that the project is underway so please stop putting words in my mouth about touting its success before it opens-you should know better than to do that) as opposed to what is there now (sorry for Stop & Shop, even though that's but another guess by Disgusted), the City decided to throw in the clean up costs to get the project up and running. It's a good roll of the dice, weighted in the house's favor, the house being Ogden, because of the possibility of reimbursement and the increase in property and sales tax (regardless of Disgusted's somewhat lame views on that) that will more than offset the costs. I don't know what figures this Bill C deals with, but the sales tax alone, from any one of these super stores that abounds around our area, would more than treble the 750K within a few years, making the payback, even without the possibility of reimbursement, economical.
This city needs major development and here again, there's no TIF involved. And please, allow the City to make an investment in itself now and again, as this is not uncommon and can only help if DONE RIGHT (please, you dissenters, READ my words and try to UNDERSTAND my message-I don't advocate free money give-aways and full City financiing of developments, just some occassional help to get things again moving in Ogdem, as they seem to be now).
As to where I was during The Junction discussion of last week, Disgusted, I was out of town and didn't have much of an opportunity to respond. I do have a life as well as some differing views.
Well blain, I know fully well how the City functions and have attended numerous work sessions as well as planning commission meetings. I know that this million was swiped from another worthy project, I was at that work session, and the presentation don't fit your decription.
As for your description of a big project, a grocery and small strip mall seems a stretch. Given the embarrasing track record of BD in recent years I can see where it feels huge.
But you're still ducking the reality of ever seeing that million again, or you have tacitly answered it by now calling it a wise investment. Which is it?
Part 1
I don't give a rat's ass if TIF is being used on this project or not. Fact of the matter is, the city is fronting tax payer funds for a business to locate here. Period. Whether it's TIF, CIP, CIF, MIA, DOA, ABC, CBS, NBC, NBA, MLB, NHL, NFL, WNBA, NCAA, PGA, DBIB (Dead Before It Begins) or what ever you want to call it, it is tax payer money going to a private enterprise to "lure, assist, bribe, help, or pay for" to get them here. Would Winco be coming if the city wasn't paying for the clean up? Probably not.
If Winco saw 12th and Wall in Ogden, Utah as such a great business opportunity to build a grocery store and strip mall then let them pay for the clean up of the property they chose to build on. Even better yet, let them go north-east 100 yards and use the old Fred Meyer building. I don't know if Ogden asked Winco to come or if Winco asked Ogden, doesn't matter to me.
If a private business wants to build in Ogden, it's not the tax payer's responsibility to provide any assistance what so ever. If Winco is such a strong company and if $750,000 is just a drop in the bucket compared to what Ogden will see in increased sales tax revenue and property tax revenue, then it's not a far stretch for Winco to cover the clean up for their own location, especially when there's a perfectly good location right across the street. Ogden City will only see about 1% of the sales tax collected and will not see the entire increase in property taxes either as those funds will mostly go to other taxing entities. Unless Boss Godfrey can find a way to screw every other resident in Weber County out of their share of the property taxes, especially our schools just like he did with his can't fail "Junktion."
Part 2
As some one stated in an earlier post, there are only so many consumers in any given area. Those consumers only have so much money to spend. Just because you build another place for people to spend their money doesn't mean more money is going to be spent. Especially when you're building a grocery store. It's not like people are going to drive hundreds, let alone tens or even fives or ones of miles to go to this new development who were shopping in other cities because it's there. Hell, people still go to convenience stores to buy milk at $5 a gallon or bread at $4 a loaf or other basic food items because they're too damn lazy to drive the extra mile and walk into a grocery store.
Blain wants to compare grocery stores to fast food restaurants. Yes, fast food restaurants do build around each other for the very reasons he listed. So do a lot of restaurants. That's the very reason someone invented the "Shopping Mall". But how many grocery stores build around other grocery stores? Grocery stores are built to serve a community and within a 5 mile radius of this new Winco there are going to be 7 grocery stores. Wal Mart in Harrisville, Harmons, Wangsgards, Smiths, Stop and Shop, the new Winco and a new Wal Mart. Hey, we built more grocery stores so that must mean people are going to buy more groceries and spend more money. Hell, there are only 250,000 people in all of Weber County. Maybe 75,000 in all of Ogden City. A whole 10,000 people per grocery store, not taking into account all of the other grocery stores in Weber County.
As far as the increase in employment goes. Ya, just what we need more minimum wage jobs that don't pay people enough to support a family. Instead of pissing our money away attracting grocery stores, why don't we put it towards education where it belongs. Heaven forbid we educate our children so they can have good paying jobs and we can attract real businesses to Utah who pay more than $7.25 per hour or a whole $15,080 per year.
As far as all of this goes, why in the hell isn't something being done with the old Fred Meyer building? What, is Winco too good to go into a vacant building and they have to have a newly constructed one? Is there some economic windfall on the southeast side of 12th and Wall compared to the Northwest side. Stupid question, let me answer that. Yes, a $750,000 windfall plus what ever other concessions have been made that we don't know about. Makes no sense to spend millions of dollars to build a new building when there is a perfectly good building right across the street.
What because there is a new grocery store some one might reopen the old Fred Meyer? Maybe Super Target will reopen the store. Don't think so!
Free enterprise doesn't mean free money from the government to start or support your enterprise unless you're coming to Ogden, Utah. Contrary to what Ray Consella stated in The Field of Dreams, "If you build it they will come." Ya, they might come, but they'll be coming from Wal Mart, Smith's, Stop and Shop, etc. ect. ect.
What a bunch of shit and Blain, you've been sucked right in!
Goonga Galoonga--damn, they named you right. I won't even dignify your rants and raves with a response, for as I once told Bill C., one gains nothing by besting a fool.
After posting last night, and then watching a little of "LIVE FROM THE PGA" on the Golf Channel, I laid awake and thought of something: it's too bad they don't have a "Development School" to send some of you guys to, so you can see how it's done and maybe learn just a LITTLE something. But they don't. And that's too bad, for instead of getting out there, digging in, maybe giving the dice a little roll yourselves, learning about "penciling out," you'll while away your time criticizing any and everything that comes Ogden's way over BS like Stop & Shop, driving those extra miles, and refering to the descriptive language that is written in Ordinances and doing your damndest to stop these projects and or at least viciously complain about them.
When an opportunity presents itself so a developer can make some money, he'll go over the facts and figures, crucnh the numbers and see what his profit margin will hopefully be. If it's either in the red, or it doesn't make him enough, he'll drop the project and move on to the next one. If that happens, the blight, detrioration, or whatever will remain, the tax base will remain, the services will suffer for lack of funds and the delapidation will remain as a constant, visual and economic eyesore for the area dn city as a whole. But, if the project is on the edge, and a little help from the municipality is needed to help the project pencil, then valla, the City might throw in because it knows what it has presently and knows what the potential loss is.
This happens all the time, from Trump in New York to Wrights in Ogden. Wrights are the developers. They'll do it all, with a $750K helping hand from the City. Gagoon or whatever, why the hell would WinCo, if you knew ANYTHING about them, would they rent some building across the street that doesn't fit their physical needs, and therefore won't allow them to ply their trade, when they can help design their new 100,00 sq ft store so it works and then lease that. Wrights can then surround that anchor tenant with other stores, etc. and The Commons is up and running. Sure, it's a gamble but these guys seem to make their developments work, their smart and successful, and it appears that they're now off and running. I'll put my money on them rather on guys like you and Bill C who, to me at least, the obviousness of your ignorance on these tyoes of matters shows through.
Not only fast foods locate near each other, but if you read my complete post, you'd also recall I mentioned WalMart, Target, and Home Depot. Non of these places rented a 30 year old used store, like you advocate, because they don't serve the purpose. They either built, or had built, their own design. And just look at Riverdale, where Sam's Club, Home Depot, WalMart and Target are all located WALKING-FREAKING-DISTANCE from one another, so my premise goes way beyond the fast food analogy. And aren't most WCForum bloggers always saying, "look at Riverdale?" "Can't Ogden do it their way?"
So much for the WalMart bookends destroying WinCo before it even gets up and running. This Wall Avenue corridor should bring in people for miles, not to simply shop there, but once there can can then enjoy Ogden's other amenities.
Get a grip guys and try to learn. Enough with the hostility because you're still pissed off with the mayor over the gondola and the golf course.
One other thing: as for the old Fred Myers, who are you guys to say there's been no action on that building. I know of several major probes into the possibility of lease. As of yet, the stores age and design have not suited the prospective tenant, but there's someone out there who has a big interest and the stores design, location, and NEIGHBORS just might be attractive enough for this bunch to committ and sign a lease.
Like I said, you need some development school or something so you'll understand the complexities of how this game is really played. Besides the municipality's red tape (zoning, planning, police, fire, utilities, etc.), there's the financial line up, the prospective tenant line up, the logistics of improveing the land and the build out, and the list goes on. It can take months of even years.
It isn't all about a couple of struggling projects put on the table by the ELECTED mayor or his attempts to have a developer build a ski resort in Malan's Basin at the expense of Bill C's vaunted golf course, a place where he doesn't even play much these days since he moved away.
Blaine Carl sounds like a Councilman who resigned to work for the Mayor in the Economical Development Department of the City.
What happened to the high paying jobs that were coming to Ogden? I remember talk of high tech jobs that paid over 50k per year. What happened to the IRS jobs the mayor announced a few months ago that were going to relocate in downtown Ogden? Is that going to happen or was it just a brief mention of a dream that had not been finalized? How many actual jobs have come because of relocation of various ski related jobs? It would be nice to see an accountig of jobs lost and gained in Ogden in the last 8 years. What is the vacancy rate of commercial and industrial property in the same time span.
Quizling
I thought the same thing when BC first started posting, but I now think we are both wrong on that. Unless of course that particular excouncilman I think you are referring to has had a massive injection of intelligence lately. Bottom line is that BC is obviously miles ahead of said exCC member in intellect.
I think they are both full of crap, but BC wins hands down in the brains department.
I'm puzzled by this constant reference of the WinCo Commons project as a "grocery store." I think there's a tad more to this than that. But even so, people have to eat. They have to buy that food somewhere and now they'll have a couple of choices.
Why so negative about this, anyway.
Thank you Joe Jones and Blaine Carl for your input. It is especially gratifying to read that we mere citizens of Ogden do not understand the process. I guess that we should just pay our tax money and be quiet. Indeed it must seem very rude and mean spirited to question our local government. After all everything the current administration has said and promised has come true. I am just grateful that you still let me pay my taxes to support your superior knowledge and wisdom. By the way I hope that you are not reading or posting during regular working hours instead of weaving your magic spell. Again I apologize for doubting anything that is currently happening in city government.
Right Wing Socialist:
You ask: Why so negative about this, anyway?"
Let me take a stab at that: the development required, as I understand it, a one million dollar up front public subsidy to make the site ready [removal of pollutants, etc.] That seems to be the problem for those here who are being critical, that up front public investment, and the "this project is already a success/it can't fail" cheer leading that seems to go along with it.
Given the city's very spotty record of subsidizing speculative private commercial development, the skepticism is hardly surprising. [Think of those Junction construction bonds we were supposed never to have to pay, that we're paying now and will continue to for the foreseeable future, for example.] Absent the public funding up front, I doubt you'd find much criticism here about the project at all.
There are some differences. This funding does not involve an open-ended long term financial commitment as the Junction bonds did, so it's less objectionable on those grounds.
The other thing that has some skeptical is the fierce competition in the grocery market that already exists in Ogden, and wondering about whether another mega-store can find room here competing with two close by WalMarts that sell food and Harmons and Albertsons and Smiths. That wouldn't be a matter of concern either but for one thing --- competition is the name of the game,after all and if WinCo succeeds and, say, Albertson's goes under in this market, well, they got out-competed. Happens all the time.
But the "one thing" is, again, that public subsidy. The question arises: should the city be using public funds to subsidize new businesses that will compete with already existing ones in Ogden? Not an insignificant question at all, seems to me.
please correct me if i remember wrong. but as i recall the money was not paid to the developer but to the landowner. a guy that would have made a pretty penny on the property even if he had needed to fund the cleanup. and now he walks away with an even larger sum because he isnt being asked to pay the city back.
looks to me like godfrey picked up another big financial contributor. the guy can certainly afford it after godfrey gave him a million dollar gift.
Disgusted, BINGO, seems the big question has never been answered by blain, he's evaded it all along.
It may be helpfull to remenber that this property owner also owned property on the lower Ogden River, I'm not sure if it was part of the Walmart properties or adjacent to it.
Riverdale is a cancerous shrine to grotesque consumption and tacky, poorly made, mass-produced crap.
In Utah you often either have to travel, or shop online, to get most anything of quality.
I just love how people think bloated, over-marketed and lame out of town chains are somehow desirable to anyone except mass market consumer slaves. I would like to see Ogden become more like Taos, less like Anaheim.
But there is no accounting for taste.
Rockford J:
Well, we do have Historic 25th Street which is nearly free of chain stores. Mrs. Curmudgeon and I walked the street after dinner at Roosters tonight, doing the Pioneer Day horses. Pleasant. More people on the street than I expected. The Jupiter had six to ten riders each time it passed. Lots of small shops --- one offs so far as I could tell. All in all a pleasant stroll, and local drinkeries available for a postprandial quaff if we liked. In short, it's not a cookie cutter street. And some nice [relatively] new construction that fits well with the turn of the century look-and-feel. [E.g. the streetside facades of the Union Square project, all comforming to the general height-above-the-street of the block.]
Of course, there is still the eyesore of the old Star Noodle building's dismantled facade [disturbingly reminiscent of Beirut shortly after a battle]. But on the whole, the street looks good. Be nice to fill the still vacant retail spaces, but folks were out, eating ice cream at sidewalk tables, chatting, showing visitors around. Kinda nice. We enjoyed it.
Lots of thoughts:
Part I
Now I am confused. What property owner is Bill C referring to and how does the possibility of his owning property on the lower Ogden River that may or may not be adjacent to WalMart apply to anything, especially the clean-up costs of the WinCo site. And again, PLEASE, understand that the $1,000,000 was EARMARKED by the City Council for VARIOUS clean-ups and that $750,000 of that $1,000,000 will be going toward the WinCo project, along with reimbursement possibilities. The figure, ONE MORE TIME, is 750K, not $1,000,000! Got it now?
Rockford, it's simple. Don't shop or participate in any of the "over marketed or lame out of town chains." Go try the new, family owned store in Washington Terrace. I hear it's really nice, affordable, and has a very pleasant atmosphere in which to shop. Ogden will never be Taos, just like it will never be Aspen or Steamboat Springs. Ogden will just be Ogden and Ogden will survive, regardless of how you think or how I think or where you shop and dine. Rockford, just take your business to some other locale then you don’t have to get so upset. It’s kind of like changing the channel if you run into an offensive TV program. But don’t try to force me to do the same.
Disgusted, to which land owner do you refer this large sum of money was paid to by the City? For some reason I thought we had been discussing the DFA and the dollars used to clean up that site. Aren't they the ones who owned the land that the bulk of the contamination was found? Being that SOME contamination migrates, there may have been collateral damage to other properties, which were owned by various people and or groups (LLCs, INCs, etc.). Yes, I’ve heard that there is one person who owns much of that land, but I can't tell by your posts to which one you refer. Please enlighten me. And do you really know that he or any of the other property owners, to which you refer, have not ponied up any clean-up money for the project? If so, I'd sure like to know your source, but since we're allegedly operating under journalistic auspicies (sp?) on this blog, our sources should remain confidential
Part II
Bill C., you keep refering to "the big question" that I've "been avoiding." What is "the big question?" I do recall many mentions about reimbursement through either litigation with the DFA or by paybacks by either the developers or some property owners, or the fact that this is a pretty good deal for Ogden regardless of whether or not we get any of the clean up dollars back. Maybe you're right, I can't answer your question because I, like all of us, are not privy to any of the contracts or agreements made between the City/BD and the developers/landowners/WinCo. There's no dodgin the issue here, I've merely commented on the reimbursement issue that was written about in the initial newspaper article and that, as far as I feel, it's a pretty good trade off even we we don't get the $750,000 back. Once this project get up and running, it should pay Ogden back many dollars, big dollars, for years to come. You may not agree, but that's your right. I just happen to think you're wrong here and most of your negativity comes from a personal grudge against the Mayor for his MOGC thing. If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong.
And BlackRulon, do YOU really understand the development process? I don't think so, for if you did you'd frame your posts more toward that than you're feeling that I'm against dissent. My earlier posts were basically aimed at Disgusted, Bill C, Curmudgeon and the other folk I have been debating, not with you. I didn't feel that I was dragging you into that arena. I think your argument should be with our friend and gentile reader, the Right Wing Socialist Joe Jones. Incidentally, I do agree with RWS Joe Jones, however, that calling the WinCo project a mere "grocery store" is minimizing that development. That also shows me you don't quite have the concept of what is really happening along the Wall Avenue corridor. And there's one more thing: I absolutely support you claims (although I realize you were taking a shot at me by being both negative and facicious with your wording) of public dissent. That is one of our fundamental rights as an American, guaranteed by the First Amendment, one of the rights that make this such a great country. You will not find anything I've written to the contrary. I've served this wonderful country of ours, defending and preserving those rights, including the right of dissent and disagreement with elected officials and the government, so I find it very offensive for your to make the accusations that I think otherwise and that we should just "pay our taxes and be quiet." I would never advocate such tripe, Blackrulon, and for you to suggest so makes me bristle. I sometimes wonder who some of your people are when you spin words and attribute falsehoods such as this towards patriots such as myself. Hell, I'm the one who is dissenting against you guys! I think that you, along with some of the others, need to understand my message rather than just read the words and then spin them to your own satisfaction
Finally
Part III
Mr. Curmudgeon, here again, even though you have addressed RWS Joe Jones, I do understand your dissatisfaction over public monies that have been tossed hither and yawn in some of the previous projects that are yet to be completed and are still struggling. I don't like to see that anymore than you do. But things do change and all projects may not be that way now or in the future. I find it difficult to believe that THIS project will turn into another Gadified affair, because of the people that the newspaper say are involved. I've already mentioned that we're not dealing with those from the past with whom you have your problems with. We're now dealing with ethical professionals whom I'm sure are all above board. And again, I'd bet the ranch that our BD has done its due diligence here. The reason I feel this way may be that the Wrights are Layton natives and Layton based. They started out with small projects, two to three building strip malls, learned the game, grew and then graduated to some major league developments. They are very well respected in the development industry and they have put together many fine and successful projects. Gary Wright is the founder/CEO and Spencer, the one we read about in the newspaper, is his son who left an Eastern law practice to come back and help his dad in the family business. Good people, real good people. Go to Layton and check them out. Now, combine that with Mr. Tom Christopulos, Ogden City's Business Development Manager, who is a former Economic Director of Layton City, who is directing this project from Ogden's side. Christopulos knows the Wrights, has done business with the Wrights and also knows his stuff. From what I've heard, there's not much if anything, that gets by this man and he's a man of intelligence and integrity and has made many successes of his own on his own, prior to getting involved with local governments and area cities. My sources tell me that he is a man who knows how to do this and his ways are not the ways of the past. And by his accomplishments here, I'd have to agree.
I do understand your frustration of the past; but this is today and it seems, by what I've read, that there's a big difference in how this development (no TIF, the players involved, real blite being removed to be replaced by modernization, et al) has been put together as opposed to how some of the others you so complain about and base your feelings on, have been. Guess what? I basically agree, but again this one is this one, the other ones are the other ones. As I said, things change.
By the way, Curmudgeon, even though you directed your post to Joe the Socialist, you mentioned Smiths, Albertsons and Harmons....did you pontificate in this same way when Macey's or any of the other more recent stores came to town? If so, I missed it.
Gentlemen, it's been my pleasure, but I gotta go....it's late.
BC:
You wrote: "Ogden will never be... Aspen."
Careful, BC. Remember Hizzonah, Mayor Godfrey and his Lift Ogden cronies, in the throes of his gondola mania, used to claim that selling Mt. Ogden Park and building a city-owned downtown gondola would turn Ogden into "the next Aspen." So best be careful. Keep saying "Ogden will never be Aspen," or worse, put a sign on your car saying that, and someday you may find Hizzonah [in his Junior G-Man mode] following your lady around downtown in his car, phoning her license plate number into Ogden's Very Own Police Chief and Part Time State Senator to find out who she is. Hizzonah can get downright churlish about people saying his grand gondola pipe dream is... well, is nuts.
BC:
You wrote: By the way, Curmudgeon, even though you directed your post to Joe the Socialist, you mentioned Smiths, Albertsons and Harmons....did you pontificate in this same way when Macey's or any of the other more recent stores came to town? If so, I missed it.
Did they receive fat subsidies from the taxpayers to come here? I don't know. But if they did, I'd say the same of them that I did of the WinCo project: I'm not sure the city should be subsidizing new companies with public money to come here to compete with Ogden companies already here. If they come on their own nickel, as I said, let the competition begin and may the best stores stay standing. Since you asked.
Blaine Carl
it sounds like youre loosing it a bit Blaine Carl. with lines like “Well boys, i suppose you need to UNDERSTAND Capital Improvement Projects, and their funding.” you know Blaine Carl everyone loves it when someone talks down to them like son let me tell you how it is. or “Get a grip guys and try to learn” and “you need some development school or something so you'll understand the complexities of how this game is really played.”
in reality some of us do know how it works and how its played we just don’t like the way the city is playing it with our money. you say “It's a good roll of the dice, weighted in the house's favor, the house being Ogden” and i say the city should not be gambling with the citys money and frankly with the citys track record the house has not been winning.
i also find it informative that you show no regard for existing businesses in ogden when you make comments such as “you'll while away your time criticizing any and everything that comes Ogden's way over BS like Stop & Shop.” did you ever stop to think that these businesses along with the residents that you are communicating with here on this blog pay the bd department salaries. i suggest that you to stay anonymous.
and do you believe your claim that we will some day in the future get our money back as you say “the possibility of reimbursement and the increase in property and sales tax that will more than offset the costs.” and if so you have the gall to say my comments are lame. how much of the total property tax that is collected comes back to ogden and what percentage of the total sales tax comes back to ogden. please show us your time value of money calculations that determines how many and i say many years in the future until the city just break even on the up front free money the city gave away. and i ask this question without factoring in the possibility of lost revenues that the city may loose if this project should shut down other revenue generating sources to the city.
additionally i might have felt somewhat better had the money actually went into the project instead of the pocket of the landowner that sold the property to the developer.
Blaine Carl
your description of the cip budgetary process was informative to read in that it gave us an insight as to the arrogance of the administration in its perception of its powers to use the city money and to move the money around in what ever manner it wants. your description of how it is supposed to work was correct but the leeway that you suggest that is allowed under the process is incorrect. the whole idea of a budget in the first place is to have monetary control over spending and to use the funds efficiently based on priorities established in this case by the city council. what has been going on in ogden is anything but budgetary control and your comment that “the Mayor can cut this list to projects that can be funded, but he can't just arbitrarily move the money around to make due for himself.” is laughable. one only has to look at the water tanks that the administration tried to build on the top of 36th street outside of the cip process to realize that he feels it is his money to do with as he pleases.
and his accomplice in this action or instigator as the case may be is often the bd department. it has gotten so bad that the bd department relative to the 12th street project informed the city council that the money forwarded to the landowner would be repaid by the dfa when in fact we now know that they are only partially responsible for repayment of some of the funds and the rest will most likely never be recovered except through taxes that will effectively put back the time line if ever as to when this property will be accretive to the city coffers.
and when the bd department presents projects to the city council and consistently the standard cost over run is 100 to 200 percent of the original bid i would think that someone would take notice.
and when you want to compare yourselves to donald trump and new york i think i know where the problem is.
B.C. It was informative to learn that you are a true patriot defending my right to question government. Those of us who have questions apparently lack knowledge and vision to see the big picture. It sure is kind of you to patronize us with your superior vision.
apparently if we disagree with the direction the current administration is going we should avoid all shopping in Ogden and go elsewhere. My questions about the high paying jobs the mayor talked about and the IRS jobs went unanswered. It was awe inspiring how you managed to frame any questions about government funded development with patriotism, motherhood and apple pie. Have you considered the though that some of the posters on this forum might also have served. But good luck to the election mandate(447)team. It appears the only way business will come to Ogden is if we pay them to play with us.
Part I (due to fear of the blog eater)
Curmudgeon, how's your morning coffee? Mine tastes pretty good--I picked it up at Grounds, not Starbucks. And now, I'm reading the blog, although I admit to reading the Standard Examiner (I loved it when it was called the OGDEN Standard Examiner. But hell, Northern Utah grew and it was decided by the Sandusky's that the paper served more than Ogden, so the OGDEN part of it's name was dropped to better reflect all who the paper served).
However, now to continue, and we have so much to discuss:
You know, I identify and agree with much of what many of you say. I also disagree with some of your political/economic philosophy and I post those disagreements via "opinion," hopefully, as opposed to "talking down," as Disgusted suggests. I don't mean to do that but you guys have me surrounded, each with your own message and unique brand of portraying it. At times I feel like Custer in the Black Hills and I do get riled up when the Blackrulon types tells me what I'm saying. Then I return fire, but after I fire back I usually come to understand that what I've read was simply their comments and opinion, just like my own, and their way of interpretation of what I've written, regardless of whether or not they are truly knowledgeable of the subject at hand. Usually, I find that they are, but when I read this constant Blackrulon and Bill C drumming, I can't keep my pistol in its holster. An example that I used, "it's too bad there's not a 'development school' you can go to, but there isn't," is just that: an example, but a meaningful one. Not all but so many out there, think they can read a snip-it here or a snip-it there about developments, maybe recall their version of what happened in one past instance that failed or struggled, and then VALLA! Suddenly they know all about things, when actually they know so little, as the process that leads from concept to completion is so involved that unless one's really done it for real, one has no framework to reference that allows one's comments to hold water.
I've always felt that when a subject's discussed, it's good to have a practical framework, a hands on knowledge of the process, a background, if you will, in that subject. If one doesn't possess that, then one is usually really hard pressed to understand the intricacies (sp?), the sequential ramifications and events that are both necessary and that happen, along with the other factors that can negatively effect a development. From the City's red tape and CC/Planner meetings, which can take months of preparation and votes (of and remember, time is money) to the obtaining the financial ability to produce the project (from improving the ground, to the build-out), to market studies done by both sides, to due diligence, to logistics, and to everything else involved, big time development is a monstrous task with huge and positive results being everyone's goal.
Part II
And any one of the above can stop or amend the project to where there will be no project. Should that happen, everyone's time and money is lost, not to mention the future "take" that the project should bring to the municipality (this has all been pre-determined and numbers crunched before the initial meetings with various players are scheduled). On top of all of the above, there's negotiation, with the municipality people, the county and state tax people, the property owners, the contractors, and the rest of an endless list.
So, when somebody who is obviously not well versed in this process minimizes such a project as a "grocery store," and there's this up in arms revolt over a Stop & Shop or other business, these same respectable businesses that by themselves can't quite contribute enough to the City budget to pay for better fire service or more cops on the beat (and we all want that), I ask myself: "why the dissention?"
When I hear that a big time project like WinCo, a project that can only help Ogden if it comes together in the right way, is minimized and scoffed at over some clean up dollars language, by a guy or two who probably, by their writings, don't understand the enormity of the project or the enormity of revenue such a project CAN, makes me scratch my head in wonder. And then, to top it off, guys like this Blackrulon, most probably a pretty decent guy, dare to mock me by saying we should "just shut up and pay taxes," because to me that suggests I am against the right of dissent. I'm sure many on this forum have served our country, as I have, but I don't have much latitude for those who don't know me yet challenge me through their innuendo that I have a problem with this. Bullshit!
We've beaten the Stop & Shop thing to death and nobody will change his or her minds over that, so enough for me. My opinion, I don't mind the City tossing in the 750K to help this project pencil out and become a reality, for if it does the return will be very substantial, regardless of past shenanigans (which, incidentally, I don't agree with). And, Curmudgeon, I purposely used "Aspen" for the reasons you exuded.
Still much to discuss, but damn, I want to go watch the PGA. Maybe have Bill C. over for a drink and a chat, make amends and figure it all out while play is on :)
Blackrulon--you ever drive Wall and Grant between 22nd & 23rd and see those new buildings and grounds? Ever wonder whose there? It's people working for the IRS that you've just asked about.
You ever driven Wall or Grant between 23rd and 24th and seen any work type events happening? If not, keep your eyes open because that's where IRS Phase III is scheduled to be built.
Yes, Blackrulon, there are IRS jobs downtown and there are more scheduled. But Phase III probably won't happen over night.
Blaine C
About several hundred thousand words ago you wrote:
"I, like all of us, are not privy to any of the contracts or agreements made between the City/BD and the developers/landowners/WinCo."
I think you just may have hit the ultimate nail on the head here as it pertains to the mayor, HIS BD department and most of the people hanging around the WCF. Seems like most everything Godfrey and his followers do is secret and behind closed doors.
I think I can safely say that the Godfreyites are not only the most incompetent gang that has ever ruled Ogden, but they are also by far the most secretive and insider dealing bunch to boot.
Is there really any reason why we, the tax payers and thus footers of the bills, should not be privy to these agreements made in our name and which have costs us a million bucks or thereabouts so far?
PS - the "several hundred thousand words ago...." may have been a slight exaggeration, but not by much!
Good laws and blog posts ought to be short and sweet and understandable by us fifth grade level members of the hoi polloi.
And to the persons who disparaged the former council member intelligence, I think your talking out of your analorifice. I too know this guy and I'm here to tell you ya gotit wrong.
When did the Chamber of Commerce get this new Blaine Carl Promotional Machine? I must say, it's very lifelike, almost convincing. They must have spent a fortune over there to get a robot to work so well. Who needs brochures when we've got this kind of technology? We've come a long ways from the old days of a TV/VCR combo playing a promo tape on repeat.
I don't believe the Blaine Carl "bot" was commissioned by the Chamber of Commerce. His act is far to funny to have originated from low IQ meatheads like Chamber President "Dumb" David Hardman.
Blaine Carl is obviously a test marketing ploy from the Comedy Channel.
Nobody except a talented TV writer team could ever come up with a bumbling, English mangling, totally botched, economically incompetent character like Blaine Carl.
Keep it pithy, in other words. No bloviating; no spinning. Just like on O'Reilly. Once again, Ozboy has accurately zeroed in on things and brought them to my attention. And, I have to agree, especially those that pertain to the secret, insider dealings. Those should be transparent and non-secretive, for they are OUR contracts. Ozboy, you're right, on ALL counts.
See what response you guys can get if you but send the right message out, in a logical and dignified way?
As for "Perfeshional," thanks for the compliments. If I'm the product of a "talented TV writer team," then you, obviously unwittingly, have just paid me the ultimate compliment. To recognizeme, one Blaine Carl as such, is indeed a sincere form of flattery!
LOL, Blaine. Nothing I ever say is "unwitting." Remember the core of my above hypothesis. I believe you're a test character from The Comedy Channel. This applies to both your politicoeconomic arguments and your funny neoCON "character," of course.
Suffice it to say that you crack many of us up!
It only hurts, by the way, when we laugh out loud!
As a matter of fact, I think you crack all economic conservatives up!
With your penchant for throwing public money around, you have economically prudent people rolling in the aisles, with tears in their eyes, for sure.
Indeed he does.
I have a theory who Blaine Carl really is. He/She did not rally start posting daily on nearly every subject until the unknown/mysterious Stacy Ogden was forced to stop posting on Facebook.
The never ending thread....which has gone from the subject matter to being deflected to a form of "Where's Waldo" (me being a Chamber of Commerce Jay Leno type, to being a de facto councilman void of intelligence, to a guy who has raised the intellectual level of the blog (a dychotomy if ever there was one), to a creation of a talented tv writing crew, to a test character of the Comedy Channel crew, to the mysterious but disappeared Stacy Ogden. Kind of like Buzz in Toy Story who proclaims he can fly, "TO INFINITY AND BEYOND!"
Hey, I've made some of you laugh, some of you cry, and I've just flat pissed off some others.
But that, I think, is what a blog's all about: sharing and discussing ideas, thoghts, philosophy, etc. Everyone won't agree on everything; some won't agree an anything; and the same applies to the opposite- the principle of disagreement.
Although we all seem to want to reach the same objective, WHAT'S GOOD FOR OGDEN, we do travel different routes in getting there. I've been railed by Disgusted for comparing New York/Trump with Ogden, but a closer look would suggest I but used that as an example of a municipality's helping a developer, even at that high a level (read a copy of "The Art of the Deal, by Trump, and you'll see what I mean). It happens here, there, SLC, Denver, Nashville, L.A., et al. But, I believe it should be handled corrected and transparently.
I also have to think that what's happened in the past has happened, and that has created both bias and prejudice within the people and disagreement and ill-will between the Administration and the City Council. Neither of these phenomina are good for Ogden.
So the question is: where to we go from here? Do we continue to complain about the past to the point that we do nothing but complain? Or do we learn a little something and use that knowledge to progress and do things right in the future. The course we choose, we being the people, will define our fine city for years to come.
So, good luck, good guessing, and good work. There's much to be done (today's paper tells us that) and hopefully the WinCo project will be a good start, just as it started this thread of wandering ideas and political/economic philosophies.
Blaine Carl
i wish as you suggest that things in the past represent past actions that wont be repeated in the future but the truth is that the administration continues to operate under a vale of secrecy and continues to drive just as hard as ever on the projects that he wants and that the residents have indicated that they do not want. i see no change and until the administration is willing to be transparent and compromising and shifts its focus i do not see any of the discontent easing.
you asked “where do we go from here?”. i would be real interested in your thoughts. you obviously have a few ideas please put them forward. what should the bd department be focusing on. what part of the city should be the next point of focus. where should we go.
Well good old Blaine Carl got us a cogitaten for sure and for better or worse. In my book is was for the better, but he sure does have a passel of words in him! I guess it might take a big bunch to get through some of these double skulls, like mine, that's a roamin around this blog.
Hope he keeps comin back, hells bells, I'm even learnin some new stuff from these exchanges for a change!
I thnak you, Ozboy, and all the others who engaged in good, solid debate over the EinCo development. I too learned something and it was in this vain that I began posting on the blog. I was happy to see that there were SOME who disagreed with me (most do) had the dignity to respond with questions answered and statements explained. Then there were the others who responded with personal attacks, etc., which really puts the discussion in the tank rather than propelling it to a place of new ideas. Ah well, enough of WinCo. I hope it succeeds to my expectations.
Disgusted, we'll continue our question and answer session down the pike.
As I said, we've pretty much written all there is to say about WinCo and some's version of "Where's (Who'se) Waldo, so as far as this subject goes, I'm outta here. But in the memroable words of the Terminator/Governator,
"I'll be back!"
Thanks again. It's been enlightening.
My gosh, besides learning to block and copy, I should learn to proof read..the above is fraught with error.
Sorry about that.
LOL, BC. Here's an online spell check utility that you and other WCF readers might find handy, for cleaning up those inadvertant typos:
SpellCheck.net
Paste your text to the box, make your corrections, apply the changes, and BINGO, you'll come off as if you had your own private copy editor.
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