Comments on Weber County Forum: Time to Cut the Fat -- 6/6/06 City Council Notes

I have an Idea,This idea will settle this argument...

2006-06-12T23:55:00.000-06:00

I have an Idea,

This idea will settle this argument once and for all. We all know that the project costs of the gondola is about $20 million, however we seen that the mayor projects are only half of what it really costs. (Look at the J.P. Court build from $1 million to $2 million. His own office of mayor budget is off about 200%) so with that as a track record. Lets look at the real cost of $40 million....now since the mayor is against government and wants to privatize everything that is government. I have a compromise,
While he and his little band of followers just leave up taxpayers out of it. Create a corporation, sell stock in that corporation for the purpose of funding the gondola.

Then after counting in the full page add that was run in the Ogden Standard Examiner.
I calculated that there is about 770 names on the published list. (I maybe off a few names).

Well the point is to let these people who dearly believe in this project, to ante up the money. Let the ones that have their names boldly printed double the amount of the others. That would come to roughly $52 thousand dollars each.... (to most of Mayor Godfrey’s rich friends this is only chump change). You know the ones that donated lots and lots of money to see this little Fuehrer get re-elected.

This way they can leave the golf course totally out of the picture. Weber State out of the picture and the only property they would need to worry about is Chris Peterson the forest service and Earl Holding.

In Other words, all of you that allowed for your names to be printed and published, for the support of this project please put your money where your mouth is....and if by chance this thing really hits it big, more power to you and you become rich, however if this thing goes bust, then the taxpayers would loose not a red cent. Do not have the taxpayers money nor having the city attorney do your battle for you which is payed for by the taxpayers. In other words use your own money and hire your own dam lawyer.

Then all of the tourist that want a ride over the ghetto of Ogden, which some of it is owned by the slum landlord mayor of Ogden can enjoy this very unusual scenic view that they would never any were else in the world can see from any gondola. Only in Ogden.

http://www.ogdencity.com/img/mayor/presentationpan...

2006-06-10T08:37:00.000-06:00

http://www.ogdencity.com/img/mayor/
presentationpanels.pdf

Thanks Southsider, but as of 6/13 that doesn't come up either. I'm not trying to be difficult, but feel I must point out yet another example of the little king's machinations.

Or, maybe it was inappropriate to include a private developer's propaganda on a municipal website?

Nah!!!

Took a while for http://www.ogdencity.com/img/mayo...

2006-06-09T21:31:00.000-06:00

Took a while for http://www.ogdencity.com/img/mayor/presentationpanels.pdf to load (2.58 mb), but I was able to see it.

Dian, discussing the Ogden City website, said:"The...

2006-06-09T20:56:00.000-06:00

Dian, discussing the Ogden City website, said:
"The words "proposed gondola/resort project" are highlighted. If you click on them, you will be taken immediately to the downloadable panel presentation about this project.

On page 12 of this presentation is the map that the city calls: "Mount Ogden Golf Course Redevelopment." ...[snip]... at least now we have the two maps and can compare them and see whether or not this might be that big of a problem."

NOT ANYMORE, YOU CAN'T!

It doesn't come up and hasn't since I started looking for the City's map last night. I even tried two different browsers.

I wonder if they've scooped up all the brochures from Newgate Mall. I believe there was a map in those.

Dave & AnonymousThe perfect defence for Slander or...

2006-06-09T13:24:00.000-06:00

Dave & Anonymous

The perfect defence for Slander or Libel is the truth. Are we going to see a dueling Dave segment here on the WCF?

It seem to me that the "original Dave", and the pissed off at Glasmann Dave, do agree on the madness and lack of basic morality inherent in the City Government under Mayor Godfrey.

I think that this blog does a great public service by providing a forum for concerned citizens to discuss and explore these vital public issues. It is obvious that the Mayor, and the Council as a whole, are not interested in public discourse of this kind.

Nothing against the Mormons, but I think it is a culture thing from the Church that bleeds over into government and discourages any opinions or ideas that conflict with the leadership. The people of the Mormon faith are taught from their earliest days that the leaders are "called" by God to their positions, that they are to be sustained in all things, and that it is evil to contest them on any subject. This works great in an organization like the LDS Church which is based on faith, wisdom, truth and personal morality. It doesn't work very well in government. That is why we had a revolution and established Democracy on these shores.

Do you think it in any way significant that, whene...

2006-06-09T12:39:00.000-06:00

Do you think it in any way significant that, whenever I try to link the Ogden City web page to this blog, the link doesn't show up?

This is the second time this has happened--you will have to get to the Ogden City Webpage on your own.

On the Ogden City Website, it says on the opening ...

2006-06-09T12:37:00.000-06:00

On the Ogden City Website, it says on the opening page:

The news of a proposed gondola/resort project is generating a lot of interest throughout our community...

The words "proposed gondola/resort project" are highlighted. If you click on them, you will be taken immediately to the downloadable panel presentation about this project.

On page 12 of this presentation is the map that the city calls: "Mount Ogden Golf Course Redevelopment." There are very few trails on this map, and, as I said before, it looks very similar to the Smart Growth map to me.

But at least now we have the two maps and can compare them and see whether or not this might be that big of a problem. At least partially. Kristen's article mentions the Smart Growth hike map, which we can get online, and the Schwebke article mentions "a flier," which I don't know if is the same or a different thing.

Perhaps the Blogmeister can find a way to put the city's map and the Smart Growth trails map side by side--I can't.

Smart Growth hike map page

Dave,Libel = writtenSlander = spoken

2006-06-09T11:15:00.000-06:00

Dave,

Libel = written
Slander = spoken

Hey if there is anybody out there reading this, ha...

2006-06-09T10:36:00.000-06:00

Hey if there is anybody out there reading this, has anyone considered the Idea of having walmart build there super store on malans basin. look at all the people that would ride the gondola up there and it would be used round the clock. look at all the tax revenue that that would bring into our city and we wouldn't need to sale off the golf course to do it. all the city council wound have to do is call this a blighted area and wha laa! now we could use rda money for this grand sceam of things how about it little mayor this is a great idea now is'nt it. Oh I forgot you didn't think of it so maybe this really is a great idea.

Of course everyone who is against the gondola is a...

2006-06-09T10:18:00.000-06:00

Of course everyone who is against the gondola is a naysayer!!

They (gondola supporters) are not naysayers... nay... they simply try to tell us that this city is in such dire straits that we must immediately commit seppuku (hara-kiri) unless we immediately adopt a gondola/development/pie-in-the-sky "plan". They say, "Our city missed the last thirty years of growth." They say, "Descente doesn't care. I don't care... I am happy with my lower overhead costs." (Curt Geiger - Gondola meeting.) This seems a bit like naysaying to me. In some cases it borders on diagnosable, schizoid paranoia.

Yet, somehow and from somewhere, Godfrey managed to find enough money to fund a two-story addition to a building in the Junction, the Junction itself, Riverfront development property, a lobbyist, Stuart Reid, GIS studies, transit corridor studies, car allowances, several overpriced thugs, "fact-finding" plane tickets to Europe, gondola promotional materials, channel 17 productions, and a miriad of other "tiny" expenditures... and our city, in spite of having a destroyed downtown (please reference mall site development which is still beleaguered by delay and administration meddling), still posted a 3% growth percentage last year.

A thousand here, sixty thousand there, $19 million here, $2.5 million there and, pretty soon, you're spending some real money.

Umm... wait... one thing that is truly mystifying to me is the way that people who like to see hard numbers and facts backing a proposal are naysayers. The people that see how the money could be spent on real infrastructure, real city services (fire and police), real transportation (trolley), real development (trolley and accompanying development - provable), and real quality of life (trails and mixed use development) are "naysayers". We aren't pessimistic about Ogden, we are just pessimistic about the Little Lizard's spending habits. For that I will be called a naysayer... any day.

Long live the gondola!!

2006-06-09T09:16:00.000-06:00

Long live the gondola!!

yep. the rumors are true about this blog. Looks li...

2006-06-09T09:15:00.000-06:00

yep. the rumors are true about this blog. Looks like smart growth ogden is making some big steps for economic growth. Nay Say Away

Dian: Bingo! Right. If the Godfrey administrati...

2006-06-09T08:52:00.000-06:00

Dian:

Bingo! Right. If the Godfrey administration made the offer, then, clearly, it knew where to find money in the budget to make it happen. Talk about missing the obvious. [But I did.] This is where my kids would have said "Duh!"

Nice pointer. TY.

Regarding Kevin Hoffmann's statement about being o...

2006-06-09T08:35:00.000-06:00

Regarding Kevin Hoffmann's statement about being offered staffing in return for the firefighters' support of the gondola project, two things come to mind. First,an offer like that would indicate that money was indeed available from the city for the department for this "staffing," and although it wasn't mentioned how many individuals or how much it would cost, still, this would communicate that the City could afford to do more for the department than it had been doing previously.

Secondly, the idea of such an offer makes one wonder about similar offers being made to other individuals and groups, and conversely, whether negative statements have been made to individuals and groups who are against the project.

Were this to be the case, it would taint the entire process, because the statistics of those for or against the project would be based not on the notion of whether or not the project would be good for Ogden, but instead on what certain groups and individuals were getting in return for their support or non-support, be it positive or negative in tone.

Rob: You wrote of Mr. Hansen, candidate for WC C...

2006-06-09T08:28:00.000-06:00

Rob:

You wrote of Mr. Hansen, candidate for WC Commission: "He says he’s a democrat. He’s actually more conservative than republicans." As evidence of this, you wrote: "He’s against County Officials getting these inflated salaries, car allowances, and special perks. He says no cop should have to beg for the tools of the trade to protect us."

As a dyed-in-the-wool, life-long card-carrying, Yellow Dog, old-fashioned prarie populist Democrat, I'm curious to know why you think opposing fat in public budgets and over-the-top perks for elected officials as well as decent pay and benefits for labor [yes, even those who work for the public], positions most Democrats I've known in three states would and do loudly support, are, somehow, a "conservative" positions?

I could point out that the Perkmeister, Tom DeLay, and his pals of the Jack Abrahmav Frequent Fliers Club seem to have been overwhelmingly GOPers, and that both historically and at the moment, the party that has worked tirelessly to pass anti-labor legislation is not the Democratic party. But, this being a cool and pleasant mountain morning and I being the tolerant soul that I am, I won't.

One thing I find intersting about Utah politics [only been studying on it four years now, and still learning] is that municipal elections are ostensibly non-partisan, but county elections are not. Why county commissions should be chosen by partisan contests while mayors and city councils are not, I find interesting. And curious. Is there some reason for it, some logic behind making the distinction? Or some history, maybe? Just curious.

Wow, Bill Hansen for Weber Commissioner. I ran int...

2006-06-09T03:16:00.000-06:00

Wow, Bill Hansen for Weber Commissioner. I ran into him at the Chevron station and we talked a bit. He says he’s a democrat. He’s actually more conservative than republicans. He’s against County Officials getting these inflated salaries, car allowances, and special perks. He says no cop should have to beg for the tools of the trade to protect us. Has anyone heard anymore of his issues? I think this man is going to win this COUNTY SEAT.
He’s got my vote.

Dave, would you please tell the gentle readers tha...

2006-06-09T01:24:00.000-06:00

Dave, would you please tell the gentle readers that you are NOT the Dave who has been posting on this blog for the last 5 months?! I don't want anyone to think that I would attack an individual and say libelous things about them. I'd like to see how pure white your past is! "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."

I was close to the situation, and you can take it to the store, that the firemen told the story straight. But you don't have to take my word for it -- let reason and logic determine who isn't being honest. How many times have we been told something by the Mayor, then in actuality it's totally different. I remember the Mayor telling us that the taxpayers wouldn't be on the hook for the wreck center, and then no public dollars would be spent to build the gondola. Now who is paying for the gondola?! It's the taxpayers with their beautiful Mt. Ogden Golf Course! How can anyone believe anything he tells them?

I've heard Chris Peterson say at his presentations that the development would be WORTH $500,000,000. Now the Mayor and Bob Geiger and everyone else is saying that he is investing $500,000,000. in Ogden. There is a big difference!
Use your own judgement about the gondola and resort development.

I believe the firemen!

Anon and Tar and Feathers: Well, by its nature, ...

2006-06-08T23:28:00.000-06:00

Anon and Tar and Feathers:

Well, by its nature, this kind of offer was almost certainly made in an aside, a converstation, of which there will be no record other than the memories of those who [allegedly] took part in it, and they are flatly disagreeing with each other. Firemen's negotiator says it happened; mayor's chief assistant says it didn't. He said/she said.

So we are left, either way, with probabilities, not certainties. For myself, I don't find it at all unlikely that it happened as the firemen's negotiator said it did. In fact, if I had to choose, I'd say it was more likely to have happened, than not. But that's not certainty.

But this is certain: the police and firemen are not paid even the average rate for those who do their work in Utah. Turnover is high, and with turnover you inevitably lose experience. And there is, unquestionably, fat in the budget. [Those who wish to argue otherwise need to be prepared to explain how the city can buy a damned Hummer for the use of executive staff, but can cry poverty when asked for a modest COLA for police and firemen. Lotsa luck trying to make that argument work.] And the Council might find a penny or two rattling around in the Mayor's discretionary funds that might perhaps be put to better public use elsewhere.

I hope both the police and firemen get a reasonable portion of what they were asking for when negotiations broke down. I doubt they will though. Particularly since the city's negotiating position seems to have been "my way or the highway." Not known, historically, to be a particularly effective stance in labor negotiations. But we shall see.

What an outrage that the safety of the Citizens, a...

2006-06-08T21:01:00.000-06:00

What an outrage that the safety of the Citizens, and the Fire Fighters would be used as a bargaining chip to further the goals of the corrupt Godfrey Administration. The citizens of Ogden should be up in arms and demand answers. There is no doubt that the Fire Fighters would make such an accusations without evidence. My take is that they are trying to get across to the council what type of bargaining is really going on with the high priced A-Team.

Does anyone really think the firefighters would ma...

2006-06-08T19:45:00.000-06:00

Does anyone really think the firefighters would make the allegation regarding backing the gondola in return for staffing if it were not true and they could not substantiate it ? If Pee Wee and Patterson were being truthful don't you think they would challenge the fire fighters to prove their claim. It is interesting that firefighters and police can be disciplined for being untruthful yet the top leaders in the city routinely lie. Pretty sad commentary on Ogden Cities leadership.

Dian:Yes. Underpasses. What's next? Elevators to t...

2006-06-08T17:59:00.000-06:00

Dian:

Yes. Underpasses. What's next? Elevators to take golfers the 200 feet up from one side of the fairway to another? This Rube Goldberg scheme just keeps getting better and better.

I wonder if Saturday Night Live would be interested in having the Mayor do some stand-up for them. He'd be a hoot. He could do his classic on secret meetings that aren't secret but that he can't tell anyone about, and the new one about maps that aren't really maps. He'd knock 'em dead.

At the risk of causing even more confusion about t...

2006-06-08T16:59:00.000-06:00

At the risk of causing even more confusion about this map question...

On the Smart Growth website, there is a downloadable map for the hikes Smart Growth has every Saturday at 9 AM.

I took a look at that map, and compared it to the one accompanying today's article, and although the key is different, that map is very similar to the one in today's paper.

As Curmudgeon says, both maps show trails crossing roads, etc.

Is the map in the paper the one the city says is accurate, or is it supposed to be the Smart Growth map?

And underpasses?????? From the article:

There will be some underpasses built so major trails around the golf course won't conflict with roads, and there will also be other realignments of the proposed trail system, Godfrey said.

I am sure that once the location of these underpasses is divulged, Smart Growth will be more than happy to put them on its map and point their location out during the hikes.

By the way, the Smart Growth map referred to above has printed on it:

PLAN PROVIDED
BY OGDEN CITY GIS DEPARTMENT
APRIL 2006

Here's the link so you can see for yourselves----and thank you, arcritic.

Smart Growth hike map

Dian,I think the 30% retirement might come from th...

2006-06-08T16:05:00.000-06:00

Dian,

I think the 30% retirement might come from the 22.38% that goes to the State Retirement system along with the employer portion of payroll taxes FICA (6.2%) and Medicare (1.45%) for a total of 30.03%.

So that is where the 30% number came from and the fact that part of that is Social Security and Medicare is why they don't technically get all of that.

And you are very welcome.

Curmy, you wrote in reply to Luke's post: " God's ...

2006-06-08T16:02:00.000-06:00

Curmy, you wrote in reply to Luke's post: " God's Party... the Democratic Party of course... "

How right you were. God went to that party. It was great, every one was in one big mass love in. The sacrament wine of holy bonding flowed freely. God drank with enthusiasm of the cup of dillusion served up by the ernest Democrats. The fantasy juices flowed freely in this wonderful political group grope.

Then God woke up with a mighty hangover from indulging in such unatural intoxicating spirits.

From that point forward God knew that the only true path was through reality filtered of dillusions of gondola granduer, and other mind altering concoctions.

At that shinning moment God realized that Matt Godfrey was actually a democrat in disquise.

Mr. CurmudgeonI didn't feel that you were attackin...

2006-06-08T15:40:00.000-06:00

Mr. Curmudgeon

I didn't feel that you were attacking me, but I can see how TL may have thought so. I think you using Ozboy as the set up, instead of perhaps Dave, is what did it.

I think that these hypothetical politicians you write about should be called for what they are. Just make sure they are what they are before doing so. For some pansy wasted Democrats that crosses the line into bad political dialogue. That pussy part of the party is why the Demo's got a bad name in these parts.

The only good Democrat is a butt kickin Democrat in my opinion. The only good Republican, any more, is a dead one, also in my opinion. That comes from some one who has for forty years or so somewhat considered himself republican oriented. I mean what was not to like about Ike? Nixon was the first warning sign of things to come in the GOP. Since then they have descente'd into the darkness of the Neo-Con movement, especially in Utah over the last 15 years. They have become the party of the arrogant and heartless as shown by the recent cut in poor folk dental care here in the land of Billion dollar surpluses, and fifteen million dollar garages for politicians. Amen.

To borrow an old phrase: "Oh the poor people of the United States, so close to the Republicans and Democrats, and so far from God". (Originally said about Mexico and the US)

Curmudgeon, you are sounding like some guy that grew up on Flatbush Avenue in Brooklyn. Perhaps this could explain why you are so bright and well written on the political scene, and so totally clueless in your perception of baseball greatness. The Yankee's are America's team, any one with a lick of sense knows that. Just like any one with a lick of sense knows that this whole Godfey/Peterson wealth transfer scheme is a scam. Take a trip out of the country, whata they gonna call you? "Hey Dodger"?, Hi Marlins"? Hell no, they are going to say "Yo Yankee!" That's why the rest of the world calls us Yankees, because of Joltin Joe and other great Yankees down through history. Yankees - America, it means the same thing. If you can't buy into that, you're probably a terrorist, or even worse a NaySayer.