Sunday, March 25, 2007

Putting Our Readers in the Driver's Seat - Updated

Two reader-submitted articles, a poll and an article update

Over the course of a typical week at Weber County Forum, we usually build up a backlog of news articles we meant to spotlight, but never got around to bringing to front-stage. This week has of course been no exception.

In that connection we thought we'd clear out our article queue this morning, and showcase a couple of articles submitted by our gentle readers. Our intelligent and thoughtful readership is one of the prime factors which has made such a success of our humble little backwater blog. So as the weekend winds to an end, we'll let a pair of our readers drive the discussion this morning.

First, we link to an article appearing in Friday's Deseret Morning News. Submitted by a reader under the clever psuedonym not because of a gondola, the article reports on three sizable companies who've recently relocated to our fair state. As our reader's "handle" slyly foretells -- strangely -- not one of them mentions gondolas.

And a second anonymous reader submits a second Deseret News article, on the topic of Salt Lake City Mayor Rocky Anderson. Mayor Anderson is of course a political lightning rod if there ever was one -- a liberal fish out of water in our oh-so-conservative state.

Toward the end of the article we find this fantastic paragraph, wherein even our own Emerald City Mayor rails against against the Salt Lake Mayor who's the favorite whipping-boy for so many Utahns.

"It's embarrassing for the rest of us; Mayor Anderson is so over the top, nobody wants to be associated with him," said Matthew R. Godfrey, mayor of the nearby city of Ogden. Godfrey said Anderson had not worked well with other mayors across the state and that his views were out of step with those of fellow Utahns.
This looks like a prime example of the pot calling the kettle black, we think. We at Weber County Forum are quite certain that our own Boss Godfrey has to be the most embarrassing mayor in the Beehive State by far.

However, in the spirit of keeping this article purely reader driven, we thought we'd try something a little different. We haven't run a poll in a while; so we're going to do one right now. And in that connection we ask a question. Of the two eccentric northern Utah Mayors who are mentioned in Friday's Deseret News article, which one is the most embarrassing -- Rocky Anderson or Matthew Godfrey?

You can vote in the poll right here; and we'll also embed a poll module in the right sidebar.

Take Our Poll!

Have fun; and don't forget to leave us your comments!

Update 3/26/07 11:57 a.m. MT: We've had some discussion in the below comments thread about Kent Jorgenson's proposed "Option 'B'." In that connection, and for our readers' information, we link here the full text of a communication we received via email from Mr. Jorgenson on May 5, 2006, in which he first sets forth his plan for an alternative to the Godfrey/Peterson Landgrab.

73 comments:

Anonymous said...

We know now where our mayor stands on the killing of 100,000 Iraqis.

He has as much blood on his hand as Bush for the simple fact that he has not the courage to join a grass roots movement to end this madness. He would rather distance himself from someone with the courage to not just stay at home in SLC and shut up and stay out of the federal governments business of death.

Anonymous said...

Touche Tec, I find it so odd that the debate now doesn't even involve the question of why we're there anymore,like ,it doesn't matter why or how we got there but,what do we do next. To me the why and how are every bit as critical and there should be some accountabilty.

Anonymous said...

The big difference is that Rocky embarrasses the entire state of Utah...had his butt kicked royally by O'Reilly for not knowing the Constitution and doing the ACLU rewrite version! Rocky is paid a salary and yet he has plenty of time to stay out of the office jetting (global warming no no) to WA, Sacramento, and holding rallies in SLC.

Godfrey is notorious in his home town and environs for being a crook ...oh yes, he's been mentioned in the WSJ and the City Weekly...but let us not forget that all of this 'resurgence' of Ogden's business has been happening WITHOUT A GONDOLA gliding overhead!

Godfrey doesn't jet around the country with Cindy, Jane and Sean Penn because he has to stay close to home guarding the ledger books and hoping the auditors don't show up while he's out of town.

I rec'd a call from friends in AZ on Th..."WHAT IS GOING ON WITH YOUR SLC MAYOR???" So, Rocky is a fool on the national stage...

Matt is shown to be a fool to those who are peeling away seven years of chicanery and corruption to expose him as the little 'screw the citizens' visionary he is.

Hard to fathom that Salt Lakers eelcted Ross Anderson TWICE...just as hard to understand that Ogdenites put the little dictator in his 9th floor office TWICE.

Knowledge is power...let's hope the voters in SL and Ogden now have the knowledge and will exercise their power at the polls in NOV.

Anonymous said...

tec and bill c.

pls recall that ALL intelligence, Clintons' (intelligent?) and others beleived that WMD's were IN Iraq. Don't you think you should ask for 'accoutability' from Pres Clinton and HIS administration, Congress, and the Intelligence agencies who were 'advising' at that time? Including the UN??

Anonymous said...

Observer 1 , Bill Clinton may have thought something, but he didn't act out by totally destroying a whole country, which by the way, was by far the most westernized of all the Arab countries. If Iraq did possess WMD (hate that term) they had no way of delivering them to our shores, nor the intention.Get you position from somewhere other than talk radio, or Carl Rove. Isn't that the same?

Anonymous said...

I have to applaud Rocky in many ways. He is not afraid to stand up for what he believes in. To me he does not have the appearance of trying to "line his pockets" or "position himself with big business for future favors" like Godfrey does. I am not saying that Rocky is not doing that, only that he is not giving that appearance. I am sure that Rocky is aware that taking the positions he has here in Utah is political suicide. Yet he still does it. Godfrey is hell bent on doing favors for his friends in big business. My belief is that he wants to secure career positions with them when his political career is over (soon we hope), and improve his own personal stock portfolio.

It would not be surprising to me if in 10-20 years Godfrey will be in prison for some sort of corruption scandal. Just my honest opinion.

-Waterboy

Anonymous said...

Observer1,

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but the intelligence community and international agencies were not in any way united on the existence of Iraqi WMD.

Everyone agrees that Saddam Hussein used chemical weapons on the Kurds and the Iranians, but those documented incidents were more than 10 years gone (e.g. the 1988 Halabja incident) when the run-up to the current war occurred.

The list of persons and organizations who disagreed with the Bush Administration in March 2003 is too long to list here, but just to pick two highlights, consider

1) Joseph Wilson finding out that Niger never attempted to sell yellowcake uranium to Iraq. As a result, his CIA agent wife was "outed" by the Bush Administration. This is a documented fact from the I. Lewis Libby trial.

2) Mohammed El Baradei, then head of the International Atomic Energy Agency, has gone on record repeatedly stating that Iraq had no nuclear capability. For example, see this archived Jan 2003 Time magazine article.

To say that "everyone" supported the idea that Iraq had WMDs in late 2002 and early 2003 is simply ludicrous.

Anonymous said...

Thanks, Monotreme,

I did not have the energy to counter that nonsense. I didn't think anyone out there seriously believes any of the justifications for the Iraq war anymore. Does anyone still think they are carrying on a war on terror...or drugs...The US govt has become the worst enemy of most of the world and our own population. US paranoia has disrupted any sense of security and peace. Rocky has my support on this issue.

Anonymous said...

I commend Rocky for standing up for what he believes in knowing it is political suicide in Utah.

He doesn't embarrass me nearly as much as the idiot Geiger father and son embarrass me for Ogden..

Anonymous said...

The second Deseret News Article was originally written for the New York Times .

Regardless of your stance on Iraq, you have to wonder about the wisdom of a mayor (Godfry) who will bad mouth a liberal (Rocky)to quite possibly the most widely read, liberal newspaper in the country. The vast majority of the NY Times readership is going to think Anderson is brilliant and Godfrey is a goof because of their political slant. (In fact, for the most of last week, the article on Rocky was among the NY Times Top Ten emailed articles.)

Great for business and tourism in Ogden to let all the liberals in the country know that Salt Lake is the place they want to be, rather than a conservative back water like Ogden.

OgdenLover said...

Someone at Weber State (hopefully) has a sense of humor. See Ogden Mayor Joins in on Ethics Talks from Friday's campus newspaper, the Signpost.

Anonymous said...

I do not think it wise to mix National Politics with local. There are many who are untied against the un-ethical, hair-brained and greed based acts of Mayor Godfrey, but in other areas of the political realm, we differ in opinion.

It's a mayoral election year people...stay focused on the objective! Stay focused on what we can do to change or prevent from being changed locally.

When the national elections come around, make the change that your conscious desires through your vote.

Anonymous said...

Ogden city mayor was asked about the ethical issue of Salt Lake City Mayor Rocky Anderson promoting his personal political views.
"There may be times when it is potentially unethical to be espousing personal views that could be portrayed as community values or views," Godfrey said. "Because his view is so misrepresentative of his constituency and he is so radical in his behavior, it is certainly unfair to the people of Salt Lake City."

Question? When did or does Mayor Godfrey ever care what his constituency thinks or wants?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous, I share your sentiment regarding the local political environment, but I have to ask one question. Have you noticed the profits of all oil related industries since this current administration removed the second largest oil producer from the market place? May sound unbelievably distasteful, but I sense a very overwhelming odoriferous element of greed.

Anonymous said...

Mayor Godfrey's appearance on the Weber University panel to discuss ethics is laughable.

He is the perfect example of an elected official who has absolutely no ethics.

What a con job for the students.

Anonymous said...

when was he a wsu? he ducked out of one awhile ago.

Anonymous said...

I went to WSU to an 'ethics' conversation featuring Mr. Integrity himself....he didn't show up!!

One of the reasons Clinton didn't 'act' on the intelligence about Iraq is he was too busy putting stains on Monica's blue dress.

You mean Anderson could be 'lining his pockets' but since he doesn't give the 'appearance'...he's not in the same rotten league as Godfrey?

Well, if the liberals will be more comfortable in SLC...then keep on keepin' on with the putdowns of Rocky, Matt!

Anonymous said...

Typical Republicans that blame the war on Mayor Rocky Anderson and Bill Clinton.

Anonymous said...

Nope, I don't think that Rocky is in the same "rotten" league as Godfrey. I don't think they compare. I think that Godfrey is as corrupt as they come. He does not truly care about Ogden, only his overinflated EGO!!! I don't think that we would see Rocky trying to put a gondola over Ogden were he to be the Mayor here.

Just my $.02

--Waterboy

Anonymous said...

Ethics, principles? You liberals crack me up. This whole 'forum' is populated by people who believe 'the ends justify the means'. You think [insert subject] is just fine if it supports your views and ends. City council members who try a 'gotcha' in finding $6000 spent investigating the gondola feasibility is terrible, but 2 months later the same allocate TWENTY THOUSAND in public money to hire an attorney to 'advise' them on how to block the gondola without getting sued and that's fine. Building homes along the mountain is an 'eyesore and must be stopped' but Weber State now stating they'll build buildings on the same exact spot is just fine.

RudiZink said...

LIBERALS?????

Puh-leeeeeeze.

Most folks consider your blogmeister's political leanings to fall somewhere to the right of Attila the Hun, although we're sure there are others here who would proudly bear the label "liberal."

Actually this board is composed of a broad range of political persuasions -- thoughtfull readers would consider this place QUITE multi-partisan.

Stick around and read up a little bit, young feller. And please leave your pre-conceived notions at the doorstep.

Maybe even you can learn a few things about democracy, fiscal prudence and common sense.

Who knows????

Anonymous said...

How 'bout I learn from just your last post?

'little feller' - belittle those who don't agree with you

'thoughtfull readers' - my observations are devoid of thought

'preconceived notions' - assuming that I don't read these posts regularly.

Heir Goerbles would be proud of your instantaneous twisting of anyones views that differ from the party line

Anonymous said...

you are invoking HeRR Goebels' name here, 'young feller,.....I hope you have blue eyes and blond hair.

Godfrey only will tolerate a 'pure' society downtown....read past threads.

RudiZink said...

Now, now, anonymous.

It's beginning to appear that you arrived here this morning with a chip on your shoulder.

LaMaze through it and you'll be fine.

And welcome to Weber County Forum!

Anonymous said...

anonymous 8:15

gondola feasibility? where is this study, I want to see it.

gondola blocking attorney allocation? anyone else know anything about this?

Homebuilding foothill eyesore?

This is the first time I have heard eyesore used in support of saving the Mt. Ogden Golf Course and adjacent parklands from development of 400 to 600 homes, but I'll add that to the other great reasons to not sell the last remaining substantial urban undeveloped acreage on the Wasatch Front. Better reasons to support Mt.Ogden Municipal Golf...

1) It is already a significant component of our world class recreational resource base. Isn't recreation what all this gondola/ski hub branding is all about???

2) An up-mountain gondola without the urban component has equal viability and retains the Gondola Identity sought by LO.

3) Ogden is surging right at this very moment. Sure, many of the interested parties heard of Ogden through profiles of the ski hub and gondola pitches. They soon find that Ogden fits quite well presently largely from the great real estate value. Not a single on of today's investors or relocatees would leave if the town gondola were not built.

4) We have serious transit issues. Notice gas is back at 2.50. It just turned spring. Long summer ahead. We need conventional transit. Those who say we need something for Ogden should get on board the streetcar solution. The potential of more than a billion dollars of (re)development along a 4.5 mile transit corridor trumps Peterson's claims. Want to really create an identity for Ogden. How about streetcar and mountain gondola.

You see, we are not so liberal, NIMBY, anti, etc. Your side has continually stooped to name calling while we talk about options.

So what I support is... keeping the golf course and the foothill uncrowded.

Moving aggressively on a transit corridor so the development engine can rev-up.

Allow Peterson a small ground lease for his foothill gondola base and he can develop Malan's Basin appropriately.

Want to address these options rationally?

Anonymous said...

Tec:

Street car and mountain gondola [which retains the "gondola identity" for Ogden]. Yup. Seems to me after two years of public discussion, initiated by the Godfrey administration -- two years in which we've had no facts, no studies, no specifics, just an endless parade of ephemeral ever-changing "concepts" -- Option B's day has come. And your post outlines its components well.

Time for a full court press to get Option B before the public. Time, maybe, for former Councilman Jorgensen to hammer out another op-ed piece laying out Option B and maybe this time, the SE will not condemn it to the graveyard of the "Darts and Flowers On Line Only" ghetto. Option B is Ogden's way out of the acrimony, the Mayor's continuing footdragging on public transit in the downtown to WSU corridor to "protect" the "concept of the flatland gondola" route. Time for Ogden to move on. Time for Option B.

Time, maybe, for as many as think Option B can work to speak up to Council members, to Ogden-Weber Chamber of Commerce members, to candidates for Mayor [attn. Mr. Hansen] and whoever else might be able and willing to get the idea the hearing it deserves. It is the way out.

I'll start lobbying the idea as soon as I recover from the shock of hearing Rudi described as a liberal. Which may take a little time, some smelling salts and a good stiff drink. Or two.

Option B. It's time has come.

Anonymous said...

"RATIONALLY?"

You can't handle 'rationally!'

Anonymous said...

Rudi,
Would you please 'liberally' display all the quotes in the poll about the most embarrassing mayor? 58 votes and only a handful of comments.

I'd conclude we are a very Conservative readership if those are the only comments.

Anonymous said...

I may have to point out one funny reality that Don Wilson pretty much nailed. The feasibility of any development in Malan's Basin is questionable at best, CP would find it almost impossible to lure investment without our public property as bait, and I have suspected all along that even he never really concidered a resort up there.

RudiZink said...

Sharon:

The seven comments posted within the poll module actually represents a fairly high response rate for a poll of this kind.

Last year we ran a poll which received about 270 votes. It only had five comments.

As for a profile of posters on this blog, I think our readership is actually quite diverse, in terms of the traditional American political spectrum.

Anonymous said...

Plan "B" that Curmudgeon seems to be the chief lobbyest for is not any more economically viable than the numerous non-plans plans are.

Malan's basin is just flat not cut out for a significant ski resort of any kind. As pointed out on numerous occasions herein, it is at low elevation, is west facing, and the earth is a heatin up. So it would be inevitable that a gondola to the place would have to make it based on day tripers going to the top of the mountain for the views.

I may be wrong, but it seems like the gondola (or tram) that went up the mountain in Palm Sprngs was just for the view. So I suppose it could be a viable biz venture by itself. I would take the ride on occasion if it is ever built.

Seems awfully dicey to me however. But if Peterson can raise the PRIVATE money to build any of it, I am all for him. On the other hand, if he wants to build it by pilfering the public treasury, I say screw em.

Anonymous said...

OK so I'll try rational. Just a quick side comment though- most comments are about the liberal branding and not the substance- no protests from your folks on Weber State's comments that they'll now develop the land that Peterson wanted. No protests that the city council allocated nearly 4 times the money spent on gondola feasibility directly for counsel on all gondola related issues- and let's not be disingenuous- we all know this guy was hired to fight the resort project.

'Principles' are right or wrong regardless of whether the principle fits your predesired outcome.

Now I would like to hear about Streetcars. I must be dumb because they just move retail dollars from point A to point B. Ogden needs it's net worth to increase not retail dollars moved from here to there. And I hope you're not madly typing now that mass transit makes people move to a town because it doesn't.

But it's interesting that the same people who RAIL against Godfrey for taking ANY risk, or spending money to attract business and residents, now propose a much more expensive gamble- all completely convinced I predict that it's no gamble and ready to provide statistics. We're already footing the bill for huge losses in public transportation with busses 90% empty- but everything will be different with streetcars eh? Sure.

I think streetcars are cool, but they operate at a loss.

So fill me in. How do they do more than move retail dollars around?

Anonymous said...

Anon:
Morph on over to www.smartgrowthogden.org for information on how much street car lines generate in new investment in housing, businesses, etc w/in the transit zone. The number for Portland, OR is just over two billion dollars. Yes, billion with a B.
The point, anon. is that there are lots of case studies of how rail transit [street cars in particular, not counting light rail or commuter rail] has brought development and investment to cities that installed it. Including mid size cities like Ogden. By comparison, there are no studies showing that a gondola line does the same. Zero. Nada. Because there are no gondola flatland transit lines in the US.

Of course, if you want to take Telluride, CO as a "city" [pop. 3000], and treat its public gondola that runs from the town up mountain to a well established successful ski area as a model for Ogden, you can do so. It's a free country. But trying to force a flatland downtown gondola into the Telluride "model" will take some powerful stretching and pulling.

So, to reduce your question to its simplest level: there are many studies illustrating by experience the growth and increased development and investment rail transit creates in cities. There are no such studies indicating the same for urban gondola transit.

Howzat for openers?

Anonymous said...

To Anonymous,

Big difference in WSU developing their owned land as they see fit and the confiscation of our public land that is used by the whole community for recreation for some private developer.

We residents own our land and choose to leave it as open space.

Anonymous said...

Our public roadways and highways are operating at huge cost, or loss, whatever you want to call it. Shall we do away w/ our public roads? All they do is get us from point A to point B. Also, when is the last time you have taken a bus? I take the bus every day and the buses I ride do not run 90% empty (maybe at the very beginning and very end of the route). We need a good mass transit system to handle future demand. All studies point to that fact. The streetcar, as has been recommnded, furthers that purpose. The streetcar provides accessible mobility to those who need it, whereas the gondola is a contraption that will move people out of our downtown to Peterson's so called resort. If I had a choice where my public money is spent it definitely would not be w/ a gondola.

Anonymous said...

Question:

Does any one on this blog know what is going on in Elk Meadows Ski area near Beaver? There is a proposal for a huge multigazillion dollar resort that is very controversial in that area.

This is the same project that Peterson's lawyer Ellison was using as an example to our city council of how the local government should bow down to developers with big dreams and schemes.

In reading about the project it struck me that the proposed developer may be dealing with some of the same issues that Peterson is confronting here in Ogden. The opposition down there is also based on some of the same objections we have here, including accusations of "no plans, or ever changing plans and evasive behaviour with the proposed developer) Also interesting enough, one of the players is a known crook!

The proposed Beaver developer is "CPB" a Utah company I believe. Could this "CPB" be the same person as our very own and much beloved/reviled Chris Peterson? Or maybe the "CPB" in this case is Chris Peterson's Brother? Or maybe it is just another one of those strange coincidences we have in the Land of Oz?

If Peterson were involved down south, maybe that could explain his hot and cold approach to the rape of Ogden project.

Anonymous said...

Oz:

You wrote: Plan "B" that Curmudgeon seems to be the chief lobbyest for is not any more economically viable than the numerous non-plans plans are.... But if Peterson can raise the PRIVATE money to build any of it, I am all for him. On the other hand, if he wants to build it by pilfering the public treasury, I say screw em.

Exactly. Mr. Peterson has the right to develop Malan's as a ski venue if he thinks it can and will succeed, and if he can finance it himself or can find sufficient investors who believe it will work and who will put their own money into the project. The city assisting with the sale of a small plot of land at the head of 36th Street for his gondola base seems a reasonable thing for the city to do to accommodate Peterson and his investors.

The key point, as you note, is that the risk should be carried for the mountain gondola and Malan's development by the investors, not by the public. And if Mr. Peterson cannot raise sufficient investment capital in the capital markets to make the project go, we [and he] will have to take that as the judgment of the market that the project is not economically feasible.

Which is one of the major differences between the Godfrey administration plan [financed by the sale of public parks and with the taxpayers shouldering the risk for the downtown gondola segment]and Option B.

And yes, I'm lobbying for it. Doing so has two major advantages: (a) it replies to the "you're all just naysayers, why don't you suggest something, what's your plan" blather from LO. Well, here's the answer. Option B. We have a suggestion, and here it is. And (b) it can provide a way out of the state of acrimony and division the Mayor has created in Ogden by his two year campaign [sans any details, studies, facts, etc] for "the concept" of a downtown gondola for those tired of the whole thing and looking for a compromise solution. Among which group you can count me.

RudiZink said...

Our readers should take note that we've added a link to Ex-Councilman Jorgensons's original "Option B" in an update to the main article above.

You can also view it here.

Anonymous said...

CPB = Chriss Peterson Bootjack?

Anonymous said...

Ozboy,

I looked into the CPB project a while ago and as I remember it is an entirely differnt person than Chris Peterson. Don't have his name at the moment.

But you're right they have similar issues with that development. Several as a matter of fact. The latest is that the developer has posted no trespassing signs on the only access to a locally favorite lake that is on, I believe, Forset Service land.

Thus he is trying to exclude to public from the lake and suggesting that since he has the only acceess that the lake, is for his pretty people only.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous,

I'd rather see the city council spend $20,000 trying to understand their legal options to stop something than see us tax payers unknowingly finding gourselves, after the fact, on the hook for a $145,000 per month short fall as we find ourselves today with the Rec Center.

The council also didn't try to hide their desire to acquire the funding where as the mayor still hasn't come clean on all the dollars that he's spent trying to promote the gondola idea.

Anonymous said...

Rocky and Matt have even more in common:

* Both were early supporters of commuter rail between Ogden and SLC.

* Both opposed the Legacy Highway. (Godfrey, as far as I know, has never taken a position on the south-Davis segment which is currently under construction. But he has said he opposes extending Legacy into Weber County, for the obvious reason that we don't want to see west Weber County become a bedroom community for jobs in SLC; we want to keep jobs here in Ogden.)

One big difference between Rocky and Matt, though, is that Rocky has been pretty consistent in what he supports and opposes. Matt, on the other hand, seems to change his mind when it suits his purposes. I suspect this is because to Matt, everything else is subsidiary to the gondola. He was for commuter rail because it might bring a few tourists to ride the gondola, but he's spoken against the streetcar because it would compete against his gondola. He used to support Ogden's prohibition on building on slopes steeper than 30% in the foothills, but now he wants to remove that limit. He used to oppose Ogden's mandatory curbside recycling program, but now he's assembled a "green team" to try to greenwash the city so we'll appeal more to companies like Amer.

OgdenLover said...

Ozboy wrote: "Plan "B" that Curmudgeon seems to be the chief lobbyist for is not any more economically viable than the numerous non-plans plans are."

I find it amusing that Jorgenson's "Option B" has morphed into the name of the morning-after pill, "Plan B".

While Godfrey has screwed us over many times, Peterson hasn't yet. It is reassuring to have a backup plan available for that possibility.

Anonymous said...

anonymous from 8:15 this morning:

The city administration spent $62,000, not $6000, on the urban feasibility study conducted in 2004.

However, when Councilwoman Wicks asked the administration last year how much it had spent so far on gondola related expenses, the administration (after a long delay) said $6000.

This is a good example of why the mayor's integrity is often questioned on this site.

Anonymous said...

Please, don't point to studies for how streetcars and mass transit increase the net worth of a city- it should be easy to explain... if it really works that is. Explain in simple terms to me that it doesn't just move retail dollars from point A to point B. Explain it. Does your argument hinge on 'build it and they will come'?... an oft chided comment about our Mayor? Seems to. So again it's an OK principle as long as it's not the Mayor proposing it?

Anonymous said...

To Anonymous,

I guess I need clarification as to your comment "Explain in simple terms to me that it doesn't just move retail dollars from point A to point B."

I'm having a hard time understanding what point you're driving at or what you mean by your question. Could you reword your question?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 4:59 PM sounds like somebody who is parroting a sales pitch he doesn't quite understand, doesn't he?

I also hope he'll come back and reword his question.

Thanks, anonymous 7:07 PM.

For a minute there I thought it was just me.

Anonymous said...

To Anonymous,

You say "And I hope you're not madly typing now that mass transit makes people move to a town because it doesn't."

I'm just curious as to what facts that you may have that prove that point? It seems to fly in the face of what every city that has put in a mass transit system have determined?

Anonymous said...

Yes, anonymous, I completely agree with you. That other anonymous is completely out of his or her goard.

Disgusting!

Anonymous said...

Explain in simple terms to me that it doesn't just move retail dollars from point A to point B.

It moves people, not retail dollars, to where they want to go. It is gondolas that are limited to point A to point B conveyance. As for the present model, cars move retail dollars far and wide. Creating a transit corridor confines and encourages high density development along a corridor with...TRANSIT. That means people can live and work along the corridor creating a real city scene instead of auto-centric as now.

As for proof, try searching TOD (transit oriented development) on google. You'll get more than studies, you'll get reports after some years of deployment. See Portland's miracle, and Minneapolis, and many more. What you gondolists miss about streetcars and transit corridors is it solves all of the miserable problems with boulevard development. It is the modern way of new pedestrian urbanism. People are sick of their automobile lifestyles. Nothing makes for an urban quality of life like transit. Imagine a 4 mile corridor lined with homes, offices and shops stretching across Ogden from downtown to WSU. It would create and lead the development path for the next two decades. The gondola would do nothing for the central residential district. It will continue to deteriorate. A streetcar corridor would make it the most desirable area of the city.

Anonymous said...

His/her response will tell us if he/she is is out of his/her goard or if he/she is just misinformed.

Anonymous said...

Tec, I am really enjoying your responses. Nice references. Now I understand more of where you are coming from. I have read through several and [I know we won't agree] but I don't think the urban areas cited are gigantically analagous to Ogden because they were already successful cities [I know you can find exceptions] with traffic nightmares needing a solution rather than a hurting taxbase needing new sources.

As far as the Gondola, it's a gimmic. A good one that I happen to agree with, but a gimmic to attract skiers and their ski companies nonetheless. I think the Mayor would agree if he could be candid without getting his head chewed off, but that doesn't seem to be possible nowadays. And it's sad because I, along with many many others, firmly believe that he's a guy busting his butt to do an almost impossible task- turning a city around. Almost ALL others across the country have failed. And he's actually doing it. It's not been perfect- he'll tell you so. But guys, there's no textbook.

I think it's a no-brainer [please folks don't even take that one it's too easy] that making a small ski resort quickly accessible to the companies that have moved here will shortcut what will be many years' more marketing gamble until Ogden's taxbase and economy is where it needs to be. I am very surprised to hear some saying this might be OK.

With Pineview available in the summer [along with the proposed water ski racing arena possibility] and skiing accessible in about 20 minutes, the companies willing to come to our city will have what they need to do their R&D and perhaps even to move their mfg too. I'd like to see the backside of the mountain linked as well with whatever mechanism used hidden in trees or the like. We can boost Ogden and keep the scenery and hell, in Park City they have a town chair lift that pulls mountain bikes up to the trails for people who have a hard time biking up. They make a little money, people get their trails... seems pretty cool.

Anonymous said...

The gondola you like would carry tourists right out of downtown to fritter their time away in Malan's Basin and if Peterson has his way stay up there without ever having to leave his destination resort. I do not see how this is so great for the barely resurgent downtown. I would think we want to encourage destination status for our downtown.

Gimmicks are for fools. Hardly something to sink 50 million dollars into. I agree that the gondola is a gimmick. Godfrey and Geigers admit it. They brag of that what it takes to get companies interested. Unfortunately they now have shifted gears already and now are operating in fear mode. The new mantra is that we must build it to keep Amer and Descente here. So Amer has not even moved in yet and the LO choir is onto verse 2. "They will move if we do not build the gimmick that hoodwinked them into choosing Ogden." Forget that they will have fallen in love with Snowbasin by next season, fallen in love with the foothill and likely will see the light that the LO nonsense is just that. Wouldn't that be ironic. Like shooting oneself in the foot. Should have recruited WasteManagement or UnionCarbide. They would go along with paving over all of Mt Ogden if you suggest it. The very companies and their personnel move to Ogden on the air of a gondola gimmick and find after living here, like I did, that it is a stupid plan and they like Ogden as it is today. I sense that transplants from Green hotspots like Portland and SoCal and New Hampshire will like what they see in Ogden and work to protect the natural recreational resources that brought them here in the first place. They are the best new SGO recruits. Eat crow LO.

Anonymous said...

Oh yeah, anon, there is snow in the forecast. Likely last powder of the season. Are you there or are you lame. Malan's Basin would have opened after Christmas and closed Before Mar. 1 this season. If it was their first it would be disastrous.

Anonymous said...

It was reported to me tonight that National Geographic's travel magazine [which I do not take] has a nice article on Ogden's attraction's in its current issue, emphasizing easy access to mountain sports. If anyone takes it and has seen the article, pls post your impressions of it and a full citation [date of issue, vol. number, page numbers]. Thanks.

Anonymous said...

NG Adventure magazine [March 2000] lists The ADVENTURE 100
Who says you can't quantify greatness? For our first annual ADVENTURE 100, we crisscrossed the United States—from Alaska to Florida—enlisted the country's top adventure writers, and ranked trips by a complex set of subjective criteria. The result? A countdown of epic hikes, killer climbs, backcountry rides, roller-coaster raft runs, and much more that we confidently declare to be America's Best.


No. 45 on the list is skiing the Olympic downhill course at Snow Basin. [Where, of course, neither the Mayor's flatland gondola nor Mr. Peterson's not-yet-proposed-but -maybe-someday-will-be mountain gondola will take anyone.]

Anonymous said...

Gimmicks don't cost $50,000,000.

Gimmicks don't equal 1/2 of the annunal budget of a city.

Gimmicks shouldn't replace valuable real unreplaceable assets.

You are suggesting that we take the equivalent of half of all the dollars that the city brings in from all sources in an entire year and spend it on a gimmick, but you are also suggesting that we give up one of our most cherished assets to pay for the gimmick.

Would you take half of your annual income to Windover and put it all down on a spot on the roulet wheel?

You answered the anonymous post above, you're completely out of your goard.

Anonymous said...

Oh, if only I ran the Standard Examiner for a day. Following Anon 8:35's surprising admissions above, I can see the headline and subhead on tomorrow's Top of Utah Section's lead story now....

GODFREY SUPPORTER ADMITS GONDOLA IS "GIMMICK" --- "Mayor knows it too" Administration backer charges.

Ah, to be editor for a day....

Godfrey's been having quite a run this week. His Amen Chorus told the Council it should back the mayor "on blind faith" and "without having all the facts," and now another concedes the mayor's flatland gondola is "a gimmick" and that "the mayor knows it."

Yup, Hizzonah has been having quite a week....

OgdenLover said...

"The new mantra is that we must build it to keep Amer and Descente here." - Tec

Amer may truly make a contribution, we don't know yet. But, having Descente (and their half-dozen or so employees, working out of rented space, shilling cheap Chinese-made rags) pick up and leave would be good for Ogden. What have they contributed except help to spread dissention and lies. Poor Matt would be lonely, though.

Anonymous said...

wow thought you guys were actually becoming reasonable- but there it went...

Anonymous said...

anonymous 7:25

For sake of conversation...where is it that we are reasonable in your perception and...where did we diverge?

Or do you simply jerk the conversation around for your own manic-depressive satisfaction.

Anonymous said...

If you are thrilled with the Malan's plan think about this. Suppose it is open this season. You decide to support our newest miniature ski area by buying your season pass there instead of Snowbasin or Powder. Well you would have been shut out of skiing for the last several weeks due to unskiable snow cover, while all your friends are still skiing sunny days at Snowbasin.

Although some fair weather skiers can be satisfied with just a few weekend days per season, those of us who take our snowriding seriously, strive to get as many days as nature can deliver. Snowbasin will have been open fully 50-60 more days this year than the mythical Malan's despite the fact that they share a common ridgeline and elevation profile. Just the difference between Northeastern and due western exposure. A satellite view would show drastically the feasibility of this west facing acreage. Those who do not ski but for a few days a season have no clue to snow science and the absolute unskiability of sundrenched snow no matter what the coverage or base. You probably cannot imagine that even pointing your board straight down a 30 degree pitch may not be enough to even slide on snow at such an excessive surface temp and water content. It's called surface tension. Hot snow don't slide...in simple terms.

Anonymous said...

Tec,

See here's the thing... if you don't convince somebody you start making statments like 'it's for fools' and 'manic-depressive satisfaction'. What's that about? In fact, it's a real weird tonal difference from your posts last night. It's like you're now someone else.

Did you address the substance of how Ogden isn't a traffic nightmare looking for a solution. Mass Transit isn't a 'solutional fit' right now but certainly has merit when the town is more prosperous? Can you folks actually 'give' on a point where your view isn't real solid? I did. I agree that it would be great in the future... just not now. Can we disagree and discuss without name-calling?

And what's with this 'He Admitted It!, He Admitted It!' crap from Curmudgeon? C'mon. Of course it's a gimmick. But I agree with it. For good reason. Can I get anybody on this blog to stop the twisting? Don't call a $10-15 Million project which won't cost taxpayer money a $50 Million project. Don't call 400 houses 600.

Last night I got a few resonable responses and was pleasantly surprised, but today it's all different. What's changed? Only thing I can think of is that I said I read your references and don't agree.

Anonymous said...

Anon 8:32,

Looks like some kind of Biblical reference

First, please think of a screen name.

So the only thing you are willing to give is that Ogden is not in need of a proven transit mode at this time in history because we do not have gridlock yet? So it is better to forward a gimmick than the real deal. I can give a little, too. I will be willing to forego a transit corridor for sake of conversation, but that does not make it wise to then further a gimmick. If we are not experiencing enough gridlock for a streetcar deployment, then what is the case for a gondola. I have expressed support for the mountain gondola, so to say I won't give, is cherry picking my position for arguments sake.

You don't have to wait for gridlock to be forward thinking enough to create a transit corridor. Your assumption is that communities should continue on the auto-centric development path until the oil runs out.

I guess you would be the one eating the last bowl of grain while the rest of the tribe is out planting for next year's sustenance. Live for today, as they say...

Survival and success depends on forethought and wisdom, not gimmicks.

Anonymous said...

Anon

"10-15 million project"??

get your facts, bro.

Doppelmayer tells me directly that the bare installed cost of gondolas, equipment only, is about 5 million per mile. That makes 22.5 million for a 4.5 mile route.

That is without any stations(they're quite expensive), any utility realignment, street retrofits, right of ways, etc.

Bottom line is that no one knows the expense in an urban installation. It has not been done on this scale ANYWHERE!!

Imagine just the 23rd/Harrison station...a quadropod, all concrete and steel 60'tall edifice straddling Harrison. My guess is 5 million for the building alone. If we like bare concrete we can go cheap. Architectural dress will add another million. If you have a better estimate I'm listening. 36th/Harrison needs another one, too and probably more expensive. Since the foothill base is essential to the town gondola, will Peterson conveniently budget his foothill base into the town gondola budget.

So I am willing to talk about the technical issues of a gondola gimmick.

It's so embarrassing to have a great city reduced to gimmicks for survival.

Anonymous said...

Snowbasin and Powder Mountain are no gimmicks.

Ogden as a viable city is no gimmick.

Our mountain trails are not gimmicks.

Our rivers are not gimmicks.

Mt. Ogden Municipal golf is no gimmick.

Our beautiful hometown architecture is no gimmick.

Why is it that we must stoop to gimmicks when Ogden is already the real deal.

I'd say it is the LO crowd suffering from poor hometown esteem. I am amazed when talking to them that they are at least 2 years behind the curve as is the whole LO manifesto.

I deal with real estate daily and Ogden is now booming and you cannot even see it through the LO blinders. None of the current residential discovery has anything to do with a gondola or rec center.

It has everything to do with fundamentals and quality of life. Those are current criteria not what-ifs. People do not move to or invest in an area on what-ifs. All the investors I know would not be risking their capital in gimmicks or non-proposals. They are not risking at all. Ogden has already paid nicely for those who invested at least 2 years back. Plenty of upside and opportunities lie in wait as Amer and others move in.

Anonymous said...

Now I have no problem with that forward thinking... just that Mass Transit is not the solution to Ogden's needs. Now I haven't had time to pile through the figures but it appears that this transit system, which would have to be county-wide would be hundreds of millions of dollars, and that just isn't realistic in a hurting area- again it would be a good fit for a modestly thriving area which we are not yet.

Our difference I believe is that I think we need to get people attracted first. But... from the presentation I saw it will take years to get the funding even if it's bonded for. So starting now is probably the right timing. I just have a problem with SmartGrowth literature being handed out presenting Mass Transit as the solution to Ogden's needs which it, at the moment, is not.

I want to see people picking Ogden to live at and recreate at. And the gimmic- whether it's a gondola or not is to pull people through Ogden on their way. It's legitimate. Nothing will 'force' people to shop downtown, but actually I think that pulling them through town [through a largely recreation-related Mall Site] wherein merchants from Big [Solomon] to Small [Local Retailer] can entice them to stop will work. And the elevation I think is important. Now we could do this just a little less effectively without a Gondola, but it's a little more obvious yet still workable, would achieve the same goals- My pitch: coming from the parking lot on 23rd say, skiers and out-of-towners can get on a covered, elevated,heated, moving walkway from the parking lot, which takes them up and over Wall ave and into an area on the Mall site where they could 'check' their skis and baggage if they like, make accomodation arrangements, or catch shuttles to the various ski resorts. But this area would be filled with enticements to shop downtown, pictures of what is 2 blocks over on 25th and all around the Mall too.

The elevation of the walkway could be used to highlight what's available as we have the walkway people 'captive' for 2-3 minutes using what can be seen from the walkway [and yes improving it too]. Downtown can easily be made a place to want to look around. It will have more to offer than you can get at any of the Ski Resorts. Just some thoughts. I mean we do want this town to succeed don't we? We can agree on that can't we?

RudiZink said...

THERE!

We've picked an ID for you.

Use it!

Anonymous said...

John Doe-
I don't recall anybody ever saying mass transit is the solution to all of Ogden's problems. There are many elements that make up a City that need to be addressed, transportation and mass transit are a couple of those elements. You reference Smart Growth Ogden, if you look on their website, they talk about a whole lot of other issues besides mass transit. On the other hand, I have heard the Lift Ogden crowd tout the Gondola as the knight on a white horse that is going to swoop into Ogden and save it from its economic woes (which has proven to be a poor tactic by many cities in the United States over the past few decades, although many have tried).

Anonymous said...

Exactly, Jill,

I have not used traffic problems or problems of any sort as basis for deploying a transit system.

The deal with transit is that it drives medium to high density development along a corridor that is pedestrian friendly.

Granted, the funding seems distant. Some strong leadership could accelerate it's funding instead of using that distant timeframe as a pretext to build a gondola.

Remember, the urban gondola component would not be built for many years as it would quite obviously have to wait for a golf course sale and reconfiguration and substantial sellout, to then fund the mountain resort which by then will cost some several more millions to build. Then, and only then, would the urban component be built. Use your imagination for a timeline. As for the cost, did you notice the enormous cost of highway transportation discussed at the transit work session? It's obscene how local inner-city transit is given polite, last-minute airplay by Dave Harmer after talking of hundreds of millions in roads.

If the objective is to develop Ogden from the inside out, then the Central Residential area is where we need to start. A transit zone will encourage small shops, which now sit obscure in so many boulevard strip malls to an area that is served by transit infrastructure. It won't replace big-box retailing but as gas prices rise and people develop an auto-free lifestyle by choice these small shops thrive as they are walking distance to thousands. The transit zone becomes the attraction instead of a gimmick. Why do people go to San Francisco? It is one large transit zone. You leave the car elsewhere and hop the rides. No better way to experience a city. Strolling from shop to shop and then hopping transit to the next block.

The administration is reaching with the river deal. I'm not against the concept. The river area needs it. But, the central city, 24th/Monroe needs the most attention. This is what people see as they drive up 24th from downtown to the foothill. First impressions count. This area of the city has all the makings of a historic revival area. It has beautiful turn-of-the-century buildings, high density residential, shady parks and more. A transit corridor would fix it's future and drive investment, even before the first rail is laid. In fact it is entirely possible that the demand for the transit along the pre-designated route would accelerate it's completion.

Notice I am not talking about Ogden's woe's I am talking about positive investment in our community. I am talking about an infrastructure with a real lifespan.

Some people, when they think of streetcars think that we are talking trolleys or antique style equipment and thus assume, it too is gimmicky and not getting modern with the idea.

That would be false. A modern transit system is fast, smooth, safe, and hi-tech.

Want Ogden to move into the hi-tech age? Start with transit. Imagine attracting transit equipment builders because of the wide commitment on the wasatch front for transit equipment. Our rail hub infrastrucutre would make it a natural.

How about a train/truck container port hub for the great basin. There is a business with jobs. Bet you didn't know they are building these at strategic locations around the country because of the truck gridlock on coastal inner city freeways(Harbor and Long Beach Freeways.). Why not get out ahead of these new paradigms. Gimmicks??

Electric vehicles, biodiesel from west weber farm waste, what about UTOPIA, if Ogden wants some hi-tech why did we not sign on for UTOPIA fiber like Provo, Orem, Brigham. Leadership makes these things happen not gimmicks.

Anonymous said...

Anon 8::32:

Aw, lighten up. Just having some fun with you. Hell, a fella can't have a little fun on line making up headlines, we're at a sorry pass. The Onion makes a regular thing of it, with often hilarious results. So just taking the chance to rib you a little. We're debating a public policy matter, Anon, not engaged in a deadly struggle for the survival of Western Civilization As We Know It. Doesn't hurt to chuckle along the way now and then.

Anonymous said...

Anon: 8:32/John Doe

You wrote: "Don't call 400 houses 600." Excuse me, but the first estimates of one of the earlier "Peterson Plans" [that turned out to be just a "suggestion" or "concept" when people began examining it] was a 600 unit vacation villa project. Since then, other numbers have been bandied about, like 400, and the latest hint/suggestion via Peterson surrogates was, I believe "about 400; might be more, might be less, can't be sure until the plans are further along." So pretty much you get to pick any number you like between "less than 400" at one end and 600 at the other, and some Peterson plan advocate will have stated it at some time or another.

Of course, at the moment, there being no plan proposed at all, and it now being ten months since the date certain Mr. Peterson last promised by which he would have a plan ready to present, any hard number [including your 400] is purely a guess, and pretty much a random guess. But the Mayor continues on, strongly urging support for a "plan" that has changed apparently from the first "conceptual" proposal and that no one has yet seen or is willing to talk about in public. We don't know what's in it, but the Mayor wants us to back it none the less, on [as one of his Amen Chorus said to the Council last week] "blind faith" and "without all the facts" being known.

You have to understand that when the Mayor and his advocates are reduced to appealing to "blind faith" for support of a plan they refuse to show anybody outside their cabal... well, reasonable folks are going to laugh. A lot.

Anonymous said...

This argument that we have to "grow" to survive, or that we have to draw a bunch of outside people to Ogden or we will perish is just so much bull shit.

Anybody with a lick of sense knows that in Utah we grow internally eternally. Us Mormons are the fastest multiplyers on earth! Some, like Dan S. are even good with other kinds of arithmetic as well.

In fact we do this internal multiplication so well we are going to screw our future away.