Notable story on the Standard-Examiner front page this morning enumerating the various projects included in Boss Godfrey's 2011 capital improvements"wish list":
• Business Depot Ogden revenue is fuel for Godfrey's dreamsHelpfully, the SE provides this graphic, which reels off these projects in convenient table form:
"Godfrey estimates there will be $777,985 in carry-over BDO lease revenue from fiscal 2010 and $2.8 million in new funds for fiscal 2011," but despite these optimistic revenue predictions, Ogden CAO John Arrington concedes that "[h]e (Godfrey) knows it and I know it that we can't pay for everything on that list." Godfrey further admits "[t]here is no way we can get all of the projects done in 12 months,"Notably, Mr. Schwebke emphasizes that there's one large and persistent fly in the ointment. Once again in 2011, a large chunk of BDO "cash cow" lease revenue, (about $600,000 in 2011), "is expected to go for bond debt service at The Junction." Remember folks, in the upcoming year, just as in all years since the construction of The Junction, (the project which Boss Godfrey promised would "pay for itself," and "never put the taxpayers on the hook,") another large wad of BDO revenue will once again be swirling down the Junction Money Pit drain. It's one hell of an expensive monkey Boss Godfrey placed on the taxpayers' back, indeed. This should serve as a reminder to the Council to do avoid taking Godfrey's word for anything... and above all... to do their own due diligence.
Mr. Schwebke reports that "[t]he council will hold a public hearing Tuesday to consider amending its Capital Improvement Plan for some of the projects proposed by Godfrey, including full funding for home demolition in the river project."
Here's the full packet for Tuesday's Council meeting, where you'll find a $3,321,379 Capitol Improvement Budget Opening as item 8 on the agenda:
• City Council Packet - Regular Session (8.9 MB PDF)It'll be quite interesting to compare Boss Godfrey's priorities with those of the Council on Tuesday night, wethinks.
And what thinks you, O Gentle Ones?
36 comments:
Here's how the council can clip a cool $1 mil from Godfrey's list: Remove the Fieldhouse (Velodrome) from the list.
See how easy it is?
...and put it towards something practical like streets, sidewalks, water, and other important public infrastructure...
I am angry at the S-E for not disclosing a fairly obvious and glaring conflict of interest.
Understand I'm not saying that the conflict taints the story; rather, that disclosing such a conflict is a minimal ethical standard.
Mono:
And that conflict would be... what? That the paper's publishing plant and editorial offices are at BDO? If that's what you meant, I don't see a conflict of interest relating to this story. I don't think the SE has an obligation to attach notice of its business location to any story involving the BDO revenues.
Or did you have something else in mind?
Mono:
Had not read the posting on the SE site when I posted the above. Still not sure this is a conflict of interest per se but will think on it. Hadn't thought of the landlord relationship, which is clearly a financial one. It's the "conflict" part I'm not clear about yet.
I'm not clear on what the Boyer Company actually does in return for 50% of BDO income. They pick up the trash and write leases?
Monotreme, what is the conflict? Maybe it obvious to you, but it seems lost on Curmdugeon, me and probably some others. I think the conflict is perhaps you don't agree that Godfrey should use any BDO money to further his interests and/or projects for Ogden.
That begs the question, why the hell not? The money is there, use some of it to complete the projects all you guys keep harping on....uncompleted projects. One only has to take a look at the functional and economic obsolescence in Ogden (especially the downtown area) to understand that something should be done to bring our city up to par with others like ours: more modernistic, attractive, a downtown that has some life and is revenue producing and thus tenant producing. Nothing wrong with that, and using the BDO money eliminates borrowing capital and paying interest on it. So we subsidize the Junction and a few other projects for awhile; they'll only grow in value and become a draw for outside interests and locals who wish to start a business here. I'm tired of SLC getting our bodies and minds because they're on the move down there (the Church and dowtown, the outlying areas that have become fine shopping and dining places, etc.).
And by the way, you mentioned I seemed to be against Mexican families trying to make ends meet on another thread. Not true. I think you're basically leading a sheltered life in your cubicle, crunching numbers and taking issue with any kind of conservative approach toward liberal attitude, one of which is illegal immigration. Just look at whose coming across our southern borders: human traffickers, drug smugglers, ill people and criminals. How many of the illegals really want to slip up to Central California and hook up with Ceasar Chavez to pick lettuce and do other agricultural work. Ask the residents of Phoenix, El Paso, and other border towns that get a taste of Mexican gunfire from the cartels and find their ranchers murdered by the law breaking, people mules. And once here, WE get to pick up their tab. You claim to be in healthcare for 30 some years....how much has our cost increased lately because of this problem.
I guess one could go with the flow of this blog, but as Palin says, "Only dead fish go with the flow." Where's the "change we can believe in?" I've yet to see it, except that unemplyment has risen to 9.6% (Obama gauranteed it wouldn't get past 8%) and we're in debt over a trillion dollars, all of which you can't lay at Bush's feet.
Matt Godfrey is alot like George W Bush. A true bullshiter and a idealogy dreamer. In reality, that counts for NOTHING. All I've heard for the past decade is promises, promises, promises. In retrospect, take a good hard look of what was promised and what actually happen. If you believe it, you're a fool and that's what they're counting on. Wake up!
BJ:
The apparent conflict is that BDO/Boyer/Ogden City is the newspaper's landlord.
That doesn't make for a conflict. Rather, it makes for the appearance of a conflict and should be explicitly stated.
OgdenLover,
I'm not entirely clear either, but I'm sure it's more than that. My guess would be that they do a lot of renovation and perhaps new construction, and take care of the streets and landscaping.
The 50/50 arrangement with Boyer is similar at The Junction, except there it was all new construction and the city probably paid for the streets. Boyer built all the apartment buildings and restaurants and the Wells Fargo building and brought in Larry Miller to build the theater. Unfortunately, the occupancy rates are so low that they haven't yet made any profit. So the city isn't getting any lease revenues, but at least the city isn't in debt for any of those buildings.
BJ:
You wrote: "(Obama gauranteed it wouldn't get past 8%)"
Do you have a source for that?
And just a reminder: when Obama took office, the economy was hemoraging 425K jobs a month. Last month, it added 67K. Not enough, we can all agree. But a hell of a lot better than losing 425K a month. The job loss began to decline after the stimulus package was passed, and it became positive some months later and has been generally positive [though we agree not positive enough] since then.
I don't recall a "guarantee" that the jobless rate would not top 8%. Would like to know your source for that.
Curm:
I'm not Billy Jack -- not by a long shot -- but I think this website answers your question.
Politifact rates it as "barely true" but I think they're being generous. Given the nature of the "guarantee", it was clear that it was meant as a projection.
Mono: Politifact gave Will's version of the claim a "barely true" rating. But from their explanation it's clear that Billy Jack's version, using the word "guarantee", is false.
Mono: The S-E owns its building and property outright and has no landlord
No Landlord:
The Standard-Examiner is listed as Boyer's "tenant" here.
If the Standard owns the building and underlying property outright, that "fact" is certainly well hidden.
BJ:
Getting back to Ogden matters, you wrote: " The money is there, use some of it to complete the projects all you guys keep harping on....uncompleted projects." Well, OK, but I don't really see in the Mayor's wish list any unfinished projects he wants to finish unless you count roof repairs at Union Station, and some improvements at Lorin Farr pool.
You wrote: One only has to take a look at the functional and economic obsolescence in Ogden (especially the downtown area) to understand that something should be done to bring our city up to par with others like ours: more modernistic, attractive, a downtown that has some life and is revenue producing and thus tenant producing. Nothing wrong with that, and using the BDO money eliminates borrowing capital and paying interest on it.
Some here might object to using public money for those purposes, but I'm not one of them. I've got no problem with public investment in public spaces to make cities more attractive to residents and businesses. The problem, BJ, is that it doesn't seem to me that much of the huge investment we've put into downtown so far has been wisely done. And it hasn't worked out as the Administration projected it would. [You criticize the Obama administration because its projections didn't pan out. Seems to me, you ought to apply the same standard to the Godfrey administration vis a vis the city's very costly investment in The Junction.] You might remember that the city's first consultant/developer said the plan for a recreational/residential development on the old mall site build around a bowling ally, gym and playland would not be economically successful in the long term. The Mayor insisted and the company pulled out. Hizzonah then when shopping for a consultant/developer who would do what he wanted done. That was Boyer, which, as Dan notes, is sitting right now on a lot of construction debt for its Junction properties and a lot unleased [and apparently unleasable] square footage as well.
So our disagreement is not about whether public money should be used to upgrade and improve the public spaces of downtown Ogden. It's about whether whats been done in that way so far has been wisely and prudently done.
The big development projects in the wish list are a parking structure downtown, and the velodrome [a cool million on the last item alone, the largest amount in the wish list]. The Mayor predicts it will be a significant business generator for Ogden. I have serious doubts about that as to many others. We wonder if that much money might be better invested in other ways to make downtown Ogden more attractive to businesses and residents. Seems a fair question to ask to me.
"So we subsidize the Junction and a few other projects for awhile; they'll only grow in value and become a draw for outside interests and locals who wish to start a business here." You seem very confident that will happen. I'm not nearly as confident, and the fact that it hasn't happened years now after the city projects at the Junction were completed gives me pause.
You wrote: I'm tired of SLC getting our bodies and minds because they're on the move down there (the Church and dowtown, the outlying areas that have become fine shopping and dining places, etc.).
Well, BJ, we don't have the population base or the property tax base SLC has, and Ogden doesn't have a church willing to invest mega millions in revitalizing our small downtown business district [though the church has invested in downtown properties in Ogden]. We're not going to be Salt Lake and a City Creek Project can't happen here for demographic reasons if no other.
We're not disagreeing about ends, BJ. We're disagreeing about means.
While I thought this was a good article in many ways, one of the ways it could have been better would have been to compare Godfrey's wish list with the city council's prioritized list of capital improvement projects. Then we could go down both lists and decide for ourselves which we think are the better ways to spend the money. But the council is never as effective at telling its side of the story (in part because there are internal disagreements within the council over these matters).
I sounds like this might be a city council meeting requiring an independent observer. Maybe I'll check the bus schedules.
That'd be GREAT, LG! We'll keep the lights on.
I may be out in left field, and it wouldn't be the first time, but I am curious as to why there are all of these recreation type projects on the mayor's wish list - tennis court refurb, field house design, field house funds, winter sports park, Farr pool - why aren't any of these items being funded over time with the city's parks & recreation budget? Or does parks & rec never get funding increases from the city they just have to make do with what they get and depend on RAMP to pay the big ticket items?
Hindman-You are probably on target, the fire department functions the same way, scrapes by on funds from the city, goes begging for federal grants for big ticket items.
Monotreme..the Standard does own its building and land, all part of the deal made when private parties sold to Sandusky and Sandusky agreed to move to the BDO. It's not hidden.
Slip on over the the County, pull an Abstract, and there it is.
On both Meet the Press and Fox News Sunday, the 8% Obama figure and the 9.6% real figure was quoted. Both the program guests and the commentators used the statistic, as well as various news and business shows and articles that have circulated throughout the large marketplaces all week. Take a look at the Wall Street Journal, last Wednesday, and I believe you'll see those figures.
Ozboy mentions the "smoke and mirrors" that Godfrey uses, which is quite similar to the "smoke and mirrors" that the Obama Adm uses when it gives the employment/unemployment stats: Remember the influx in jobs a couple of months ago that the Adm took credit in? It was because of the census, and NOW these same people who were census workers have completed their jobs and are unemployed. And 67,000 jobs? Boy, what a relief. The stimulus package has not risen to expectations, just like the Junction, just like much of Americana.
I was against the Junction from the git-go....didn't like the idea but had to salute Harmer's financing, as it was quite innovative. But now the Junction is a reality and to continue to harp about it does nobody any good. It is what it is and instead of continuing the windmill joust, it should be supported. Just my feelings....no quotes, no footnotes, no sources, just my personal feeling. Besides, what else can be done? Tear it down and start over?
As for the exodus of our former City Fathers heirs to SLC, that started way before Godfrey took office. Don't know why, except that SLC was on the move and Ogden sat squalid for several years. These scions aren't dumb and the business was to be found in SLC, not Ogden. What can be done about it now? Renovate the city to look good and have a good feel, something that will attract local and outside business interests here. I doubt that Godfrey's "Playhouse," is the only answer, but toss in some of the other plans, stir em up and we may have something that would work.
Remember Bob Hunter? Former City Manager, I think, and basically a good old boy. Well, Godfrey beat him in his first shot at becoming Mayor, because everyone wanted change. We got what we wanted, and I think that Ogden politics is a mirrored image of Washington DC politics...."change you can believe in." How do you like this change, now?
Monotreme..the Standard does own its building and land, all part of the deal made when private parties sold to Sandusky and Sandusky agreed to move to the BDO. It's not hidden.
Slip on over the the County, pull an Abstract, and there it is.
On both Meet the Press and Fox News Sunday, the 8% Obama figure and the 9.6% real figure was quoted. Both the program guests and the commentators used the statistic, as well as various news and business shows and articles that have circulated throughout the large marketplaces all week. Take a look at the Wall Street Journal, last Wednesday, and I believe you'll see those figures.
Ozboy mentions the "smoke and mirrors" that Godfrey uses, which is quite similar to the "smoke and mirrors" that the Obama Adm uses when it gives the employment/unemployment stats: Remember the influx in jobs a couple of months ago that the Adm took credit in? It was because of the census, and NOW these same people who were census workers have completed their jobs and are unemployed. And 67,000 jobs? Boy, what a relief. The stimulus package has not risen to expectations, just like the Junction, just like much of Americana.
I was against the Junction from the git-go....didn't like the idea but had to salute Harmer's financing, as it was quite innovative. But now the Junction is a reality and to continue to harp about it does nobody any good. It is what it is and instead of continuing the windmill joust, it should be supported. Just my feelings....no quotes, no footnotes, no sources, just my personal feeling. Besides, what else can be done? Tear it down and start over?
As for the exodus of our former City Fathers heirs to SLC, that started way before Godfrey took office. Don't know why, except that SLC was on the move and Ogden sat squalid for several years. These scions aren't dumb and the business was to be found in SLC, not Ogden. What can be done about it now? Renovate the city to look good and have a good feel, something that will attract local and outside business interests here. I doubt that Godfrey's "Playhouse," is the only answer, but toss in some of the other plans, stir em up and we may have something that would work.
Remember Bob Hunter? Former City Manager, I think, and basically a good old boy. Well, Godfrey beat him in his first shot at becoming Mayor, because everyone wanted change. We got what we wanted, and I think that Ogden politics is a mirrored image of Washington DC politics...."change you can believe in." How do you like this change, now?
BJ:
You wrote, in re: the Junction But now the Junction is a reality and to continue to harp about it does nobody any good.
Disagree in part. It is worth continuing to bring the Junction up when Hizzonah offers up new rosy scenario predictions about this RDA project or that city-subsidized project being quick financial successes and absolutely self-sustaining or profitable for the public in the long run. Past performance matters as a way, but only one way, to gauge the probability of future performance.
That doesn't mean by any means that any Godfrey proposal should be rejected out of hand because it is a Godfrey proposal. Nor does it mean doing nothing. It does mean we and the Council ought to examine carefully proposals, particularly very expensive ones, that seem speculative, to determine if they'd be good investments for the city to make with public money or not. [Yes, I had the Velodrome in mind when writing that.]
As for the Junction, I'd be over joyed if it became tomorrow the grand success Hizzonah assured the Council and taxpayers it would be. I was not when it was approved and am not now rooting for it to fail. But, to use your words, it is what it is: a still largely un-leased mixed use development that is taking 600K a year of BDO money to service construction debt --- money that was intended originally to be available for other public purposes.
Billy:
I've given you a citation to my assertion. The word "tenant" is generally used in counterpoint to "landlord". The burden of proof is on you, not me, to prove me wrong. Please supply a citation. ("It's in the records" is not a citation.)
Given your stubbornness in asserting something that is demonstrably untrue (Obama's supposed "promise") and your tendency to change names regularly to the point of sockpuppetry, I'm not inclined to believe you. At this point, if you asserted the sun comes up in the east, I'd want a citation.
Monotreme:
But Billy did give you a citation--to the county land ownership records. If you want the specifics, it's parcel number 12-199-0002 (which I found from the Geo Gizmo tool). Owner is listed as Ogden City Publishing Corporation. 15.22 acres. Land value $1,065,400; building value $9,173,655.
Thanks for that, Dan. I stand corrected.
I tried the county ownership records a couple of days ago, but lacked the skill to find the necessary record. That's all I was saying, although I could've said it better.
I was wrong about Boyer and the S-E being in a landlord-tenant relationship.
Even if the S-E owns the land, wouldn't the city still collect tax increment from this land, which goes to Boyer for reinvestment in BDO?
Billy J.
You wrote:
"I was against the Junction from the git-go....didn't like the idea but had to salute Harmer's financing, as it was quite innovative."
You "salute Harmer's financing"? Really?
Granted he was a smooth operator and he did have the "genius" of Scott Brown's ability to make numbers lie, but the bottom line is the bottom line and that my man is - the deal is a total and compete failure and a fiasco. Harmer, Brown, Godfrey et.al, in retrospect, created a financial burden that the tax payers of Ogden will be carrying for many years into the future - to the tune of at least $600 thousand a year - all for a crumby day glow bowling alley and penny arcade that can't, and most likely never will, make it's own nut. The results of their wizardry speaks for itself - and you "salute" that?
Mr. Curmudgeon got to the heart of it. With a proven track record like the Godfreyites have, do you really want to trust their rosy financial projections on other big multi million dollar boon doggles?
Or as Obama says of the Republicans - "they drove the car off the cliff and now they want the keys back!"
You also give some details of the Standard deal on their new digs, but you are silent on the true nature of said deal and how the Standard cut a fat hog in the ass on it - at the expense of the tax payers of Ogden. Surely you know those details - que no? Maybe you can tell us how that sleazy deal really worked? Your explanation above could lead one to believe it was all an arms length transaction, which I assume you know is not the case.
Bill Jack
A few comments reference your last above post.
To start, I agree with Curm and Ozboy on the junction. Saying the financing package was great but the results isn't, is tantamount to a surgeon talking about how brilliant his operating procedure was in spite of the patient dying.
It doesn't seem to me that you can separate the methods from the result unless you subscribe to form over function.
I also have a problem with your comparison of Mayor Godfrey and President Obama. There are obviously some comparison considering that they both inherited a very large plate full of problems. However, Mr. Godfrey has had twelve years and has only made the problems worse not better, whereas Obama has had two short years to tackle problems thousands of times bigger and more complex than what Mr. Godfrey took on.
It seems like comparing pebbles to mountains to me. I think any objective measure would indicate that Obama has stopped the patient from dying even though his condition is still serious. At least the paltry jobs you cast dispersions on is going in the right direction.
And pertaining to the Junction, in spite of looking back over a number of articles on this blog, I can find no where that even the most ardent critics are advocating that it be torn down. It is a fact of life and everyone on this site seems to wish for it's success.
As to everyone wanting change when they initially elected the mayor, I would like to point out that everyone wanted change in Germany in 1933 as well, and we all know how that turned out.
Your ladder posts are a definite intellectual improvement over your earlier ones this week. You actually have people thinking instead of laughing at you!
Billy Jack
I'm scratching my head wondering what you meant when you wrote - "As for the exodus of our former City Fathers heirs to SLC, that started way before Godfrey took office. Don't know why, except that SLC was on the move and Ogden sat squalid for several years. These scions aren't dumb and the business was to be found in SLC, not Ogden."
I can't find anything in this thread that mentions anything about the heirs of the former city father's bailing out and going to SLC. What are your referring to?
It doesn't appear that any of the "heirs" of Ogden's former movers and shakers have made much of themselves in Ogden or SLC. There of course is a couple of exceptions who are well known - the Eccles guy who became President of First Bank comes to mind as does the Schoville guy who became an Army General and important figure with the first President Bush.
Other than that I can't recall any "heirs" that did anything of any importance with their family money or connections. In fact there are some rather notorious cases of just the opposite - for instance the several newspaper heirs who have been such failures the last decade or so with the debarred judge, drug convictions and embarrassing political career.
Perhaps you could enlighten us as just who it was you were referring to?
Before I study all of Schwebke's statistics, I want to know what the hell he was wearing when he wrote this stuff down!
Well Dave, until you can tell the difference between "the Schoville guy" and "the Scocroft guy," trying to enlighten you as to the heirs of what families have moved the base of their operations out of Ogden so that they could be in a more "business like" setting, would be a complete waste of time. Also, try to understand that "the Eccles guy," was actually "the man" (using your proclivity for literary prowess and wording) with the First Security Corporation, not the "First Bank."
Again, until you understand a few basic fundamentals regarding the old "movers and shakers" of the past, trying to bring you up to date would be an exercise in futility. You just don't know quite as much as you think you do and I'm not about to become your tudor.
Marion, I agree with your analogy about the doctor and patient, but still, it took some good thought and pretty skilled negotiation to put the financing together for the Junction (A & B Bonds, the Boyer partnership, bringing Miller aboard, et al). Too bad about the results, but Harmer was under the directives of the Mayor and it's a shame that a man of his caliber and talents gets beat up because he was doing his job. One only has to look at Harmer's entire career to see that he a very good at what he did. And your point about 1933 Germany was just the point I was making about 1990s Ogden and Washington DC in the late 2000s (we wanted change and we got it). NOW, we get to live with it.
Isn't it funny how one can evoke laughs AND thought by the way one posts comments on the blog. This is a swell way to pass the time--at times.
Arms length? Hmmm. I'll have to think about that one, Oz.
Billy Jack
You are the one who brought up the subject of Ogden's scions leaving town for greener pastures and success elsewhere.
Now when asked to clarify and identify just who you were talking about you beg off with a smoke screen about me not getting the spelling or names right of the examples I gave. Seems like I have called you on your bull crap and you lamely change the subject by hiding behind your fake indignity act.
I gave two examples of people who might fit your success statement and you apparently knew who I was referring to inspite of your phony reply. I also gave three examples of sons of old line Ogden families who were total embarrassments to those families and to the city. I also noticed you didn't touch those examples. Makes one wonder if I was getting a little too close to home for you?
Five examples laid out for and against, yet you hide behind your high horse of indignity about misspelling.
How about just giving us a few names of these so called success stories that came from Ogden's former elite? My guess is that you can't do it because there have been very few people that came out of Ogden's old ruling class that went on to success based on their own merits. Perhaps you are one of them? In fact there have been a lot more who were like the failed newspaper scions than like the two success stories I mentioned.
I'm not sure, D-A-V-E, but Schoville and Scowcroft is hardly a spelling error. You don't know what you're talking here. The Eccles guy is Spencer "Sonny" Eccles, a 3 rd generation Eccles who took over the reins of the First Security Corporation, after Mariner, Willard and that bunch passed on. As for your example of the alleged newspaper heirs, the Glasmann/Hatche combine sold the paper and that basically eliminates them from being heirs, doesn't it? I would say that there's probably some amends made by the former judge becoming a mediator (remember, a lot of politics went down over the fact that he chased "the girls); his brother did pay his debt to society and went on to make a lot of money in Park City; and the fact that the former council member, who did win the election over an encumbent, and then resigned in order to put his efforts toward the CED, instead of being bogged down in stalemated council votes, is to me more "stand-up" lthan embarassing. He could have occupied a council seat for 3 more years and voted against all that you deem holly; it's all in the eyes of the viewer.
I would point out that many of the names of the old "movers and shakers" may not have the immediate recognizabilty that you obviously need so that they can be lumped them into this conversation. But many, from the Goddards to the Dees to the Deans (I could go on but I feel there's enough here to support my premise) have moved their operations to SLC and beyond, simply because of the business climate.
I think the only smoke screen encountered here is the one you put up with your pathetic attempt of trying to insert yourself into this subject without even knowing who the majority of these people are, not to mention the SPELLING of their names. But you seem to do that quite often, so why am I surprised?
Billy
You're lucky that this thread is now off the front page and thus will unlikely be read by anymore people, as well as having the blog master deleting a couple of my posts that exposed your phony ass. I do know who you are and I am sure there are others on this blog who do as well.
Your excuse for the disgraced judge is a real laugh! You let him off with a "he chased "the girls" line, when in fact he had multiple incidences of stalking and window peeking of women who had appeared before his court! The other newspaper heir went to the Point of the Mountain state prison for cocaine distribution and the other lame ass member of that family got elected with big promises of bringing truth to the people and then immediately rolled over and sold out for a lousy featherbedding job in the very administration he got elected to oppose.
You are a joke Billy, give it up before you make an even bigger fool of yourself before an even bigger audience.
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