Gentle Reader Sharon corrals a Saturday morning Standard-Examiner article round-up
By Sharon
Who is conducting the UNcreative writing classes for the Godfreyites?
Two more unimaginative letters from the same course in the Standard-Examiner today:
Naysayers ignore Godfrey's achievements
Reader thrilled with Ogden improvements
Such a sameness in tone. The buzz words we've all come to recognize and love:
"GONDOLA"..."VISIONARY"...".
And, of course, the shop-worn meme from the now apparently defunct Lift Ogden:
"These naysayers never have any suggestions on what to do! They don't want a gondola, but I haven't heard any better suggestions. They just fight against anything the administration tries to do."
Sheesh!
Of all those who have reportedly filed for the upcoming election, only Neil Hansen and Amy Wicks actually addressed problems we have right now!
What do we know of Wald? Sexton? Where was he during the trolley discussions? Several meetings have been held on transit issues...it would have helped him to attend some of those.
Irons wants to make Ogden an "outdoor recreation mecca." Imagine that! What a new and original idea! Wonder if he's had a few creamed chicken dinners with you-know-who?
So far, only Hansen and Wicks have anything concrete to offer us. Hansen will have an open administration and he understands this city's needs. Honesty will prevail. Refreshing, eh? Wicks HAS served her constituents well and, thank goodness, she's put it in print that our infrastructure will be a priority!
Right now the Council must do all that is possible to protect our parklands from the Godfreyites.
"Fight Like Badgers"... good advice from Charlie Trentelman.
Council...go hire your own attorney. Stop listening to those city paid "naysayers" who tell you there is no way to put the parklands in trust.
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39 comments:
For some odd reason, I detected the smell of rancid onions this morning, as I read through the two Godfreyite letters.
Sharon:
I note Mr. Richeson, in his letter, claims that Councilwoman Jeske and "others" on the Council oppose "every" Godfrey administration proposal. Well, let's see if he's willing to put his money where his mouth is: If I go through recorded Council votes since Ms. Jeske was elected, will he shell out $5 for the Children's Treehouse Museum for every time I find Jeske voting "yea" on an administration proposal?
If Mr. Richeson would like to see other proposals for encouraging smart sustainable growth in Ogden, all he needs to do is visit the SmartGrowthOgden website.
He's welcome, of course, to swing away with political letters in support of his candidate... we all are. But it would be nice if he'd take the time first to make sure his arguments are grounded in fact. It is demonstrably not true that Councilwoman Jeske voted "no" on every administration proposal, as it is demonstrably not true that those who oppose the Mayors gondola/gondola/sell the park to his crony real estate speculation scheme have suggested no other alternatives.
[By the way, Mr. Ritcheson seems to be among the many Mayor supporters who seem to think his scheme involves only one gondola system. Wrong. It involves building two, both of which must be successful for either one to be. I know, I know, Mr. Richeson, actually sticking to the facts is not nearly so easy, nor so much fun, as making them up or ignoring them. But this is an election we are in, and however much fun making it up as you go along may be at other times, sticking to facts really does serve the public interest when you're engaged in an election campaign.]
As for the newly announced Council candidates and mayoral candidate: hey, they just announced. A little early to write them off. We need to ask them where they stand on the key issues. Where, for example, does Ms. Wald stand on the Mayors gondola/gondola/sell-our-parks-to-my-crony scheme? I wouldn't go dismissing unknowns out of hand, Sharon, on the day they announce.
I remind you Ms. Wicks was an unknown when she ran and was elected four years ago. I agree that Ms. Wicks has served her constituents well on the Council and deserves re-election. She understands, so far as I can see, the Council's important oversight function with respect to the Mayor's office. She is plainly willing to ask questions of the Administration that the Administration would rather not have asked, and is reluctant to answer. Like how much it is spending on various projects, etc. Council members who occasionally ask mayors [any mayors any time] questions Mayors would rather not have asked at all are not thick upon the ground... not in Ogden at any rate. It is a quality we can ill-afford to lose. On the other hand, she has clearly not been blindly obstructionist, and has voted in the majority for administration proposals she thinks have stood up to careful scrutiny and are justified by the evidence. It's a nice combination of attributes to have in a Council member and I hope Ms. Wicks will be reelected.
As for Mr. Saxton, it's good that he's opposed to the Mayor's crony park sale scheme, certainly, and I'll be interested to hear what he has to say on other matters. I hope we will hear from Mr. Hansen soon a clear statement in opposition to Mayor Godfrey's crony land sale scheme too.
A week more to go for candidates to file. Wonder who else will throw their hat into the ring?
Mongooses.
You people need to fight like mongooses.
Mongooses eat the most dangerous snakes in the world for lunch.
I understand the Rep. Hansen help bring funding for the Children’s museum to the tune of 1,000,000.00 in state funds and that it was done correctly and not in secret. Now look at what a wonderful building we have and not done by putting us in debt.
this is how we do things here. so take a lesson godfrey.
Monalisa Wald has one thing in her favor already in the municipal ward 2 race:
She's NOT Brandon Stephenson.
I know Councilwoman Jeske has voted with the administration several times because she gave me heartburn every time I read about it.
Curm,
WHY oh why do you misquote me?
I have not in any way denigrated those who filed for public office.
I asked what do we know about Wald and the others?
Sexton admits he doesn't know much, so I suggested that he could have availed himself of knowledge about trolleys and transit if he had attended those good meetings.
It isn't OUR job to find out who these people are and what they stand for! They have the responsiblity of telling us about themselves.
Since they were quoted in the SE, they could have taken the opportunity to say something succinct as Hansen and Wicks did.
I see that the Lift Ogden Chorus still has the breathtaking info that Ogden will be the first city in the nation with direct mass transit from the international airport to Ogden AND we are connected to a world class ski resort (Snowbasin).
My gosh....are these people ever embarrassed? One would expect that they would cringe with humiliation that they continue to put lies on the web for all to see.
Did Mike Dowse read Godfey's trumpeting? And, they've been given over 12 million bucks to settle here with massive tax breaks.
No wonder those little ski clothing "moguls" have set up shop with their 6 employees. It'll be so fun to connect with Snowbasin and Malan's (not a flake of snow this winter)...and ride that mass transit to the airport when they figure out that Matt is a little skinny liar!
Sharon:
I don't think I misquoted you, Sharon. You wrote:
Of all those who have reportedly filed for the upcoming election, only Neil Hansen and Amy Wicks actually addressed problems we have right now! What do we know of Wald? Sexton?
Seemed to me the intention was pretty clearly to denigrate the candidacies of Wald and Sexton. If that was a misreading of your intent, accept my apologies. But I think that reading was a not unreasonable one based on what you wrote.
You also wrote: it isn't OUR job to find out who these people are and what they stand for! They have the responsibility of telling us about themselves. Here we just flat disagree. It is absolutely our responsibility [as voters] to find out who the candidates are and what they stand for. It's in their interest to help us do that by getting their message out. But we shouldn't, not with any candidate, accept unchecked and at face value, campaign claims. It is our job to look a little deeper, find out a little more, to learn if the way the candidate presents him or herself is in fact what we'd really be getting if we voted for them.
In any case, the day after they file and announce seems way too soon to expect them to make their case for election fully. You wrote: Since they were quoted in the SE, they could have taken the opportunity to say something succinct as Hansen and Wicks did. I'd say as Sexton did too.
Look, the SE story was about who has filed. The candidates got a sentence each, more or less, in the story to respond. And they may well have said more, all of them, and the SE selected one sentence... the print equivalent of a sound bite... to print. Very early days, yet, Sharon, so early I think it's just a tad unreasonable to expect the just filed and just announced candidates [who are not incumbents with records in the offices they are running for] to have a full profile and platform out before the voters. Some of them don't even know who they will be running against yet, since filing has another week to go.
By the way, where is the Godfreyista claim that direct mass transit will connect the SL airport to Ogden? You are correct that we should question at least the ability to grasp simple fact of those who think Frontrunner is going to stop at the SL International airport. It won't. Since the Frontrunner routes and stops were made public a couple of years ago, it seems a fair question to ask whether people for whom that all constitutes "news" at this late date can be trusted to make responsible decisions for the City's future.
We disagree I'm afraid on two other matters. I don't think overstating the case against the Mayor's gondola/gondola/sell the park to his cronies/Malan's Basin resort speculation is a good idea. And I don't think you'd really want to bet the grand children's new shoes on there having been "not a flake" of snow in Malan's Basin this winter.
Similarly, I don't think it much helps things to denegrate [as I think you do] anyone who brings jobs to Ogden. Six. Sixty. Six hundred. Or two. I'm happy Descente moved here, took office space in a renovated building on Washington, and brought half a dozen reasonably good paying jobs with it. I differ with Mr. Geiger on much [though not everything], and in particular on his sharing the Mayor's obsession with the city sinking north of 40 million in public money into a wildly speculative flatland gondola from downtown to WSU. But criticizing his moving his company here makes little sense to me, particularly since Descente's move here seems to have played some part in attracting other outdoors oriented businesses here.
I'm happy to "fight like a badger" against his proposals when I think they are ill advised, but that does not mean I think it wise to denegrate his role in bringing his company here. However many jobs came with it, it was a good thing for Ogden.
PS: This University of Wisconsin graduate hereby [belatedly] congratulates Mr. Trentelman on having chosen an excellent simile for his advice. "Fight like Badgers." Could not have put it better myself....
Oh, Curm, I'm going to take a nap. Perhaps one would be good for you too.
Well, let's see, I mentioned Mike Dowse. Didn't he get a several million dollar perk from the state and Ogden? Do you think he believed Godfrey's trumpeting? What would the gondolaS do for his business?
So far, we haven't seen a lot of 'jobs' because of these rec companies, tho Dowse is supposed to creat a couple hundred. I hope he does.
Denigrate? Nah, just questioning. BTW...if Hansen and Wicks could manage a couple sentences about what they hope if elected and re-elected....I thot that the others could too. Irons did. He's right in sync with Godfrey. Thanks for the heads up, Mr. Irons.
I'm t'ard and have to hit the feathers. Good afternoon, Curmudgeon.
I don’t know if anybody is interested, but since the family went to Sal’s this week something rather disheartening happened to me.
We were in a store, and I asked Donna and the kids if they’d like to go bowling or mini golf or something. There was no great enthusiasm, but I like to do such things so I persisted.
“Do you want to go to Spare Time, or back to the Salomon Center?”
The response started me feeling rather blue, and I only just figured out why.
“We don’t really care. They’re pretty much the same thing.”
I offered that Sal’s is all brand new, and I made some other encouraging comments about Sal’s.
“Really, they’re both pretty much the same,” was the reply once again.
Now this is a small sample, but here are real kids in a real family, and there was no sense of differentiation between the two places – one, a cheap local amusement center, and the other a $40 million dollar government project that taxpayers will be subsidizing for thirty years. We ended up going to Spare Time, even though as a family, and unbeknownst to the kids, we are all heavily invested in Sal’s.
Godfrey claimed Sal’s would be regional draw, like Disneyland. Yet it couldn’t even draw a family of locals. Just when you think Godfrey couldn’t look any worse or any more incompetent, he does just that.
Please, if you are thinking about running for city council or mayor, run. Even if you only plan to show up a few times a year for important issues and votes, please run. It’s what you do on the job, not how much time you spend at it. We sure could use a few more people who aren’t self-absorbed morons like Godfrey, Saftsen, and Stephenson.
PS Curm
I went onto the LO Gondola Cult Lair....just read it. It's in Rudi's sidebar.
I wouldn’t worry about the two letters to the editor today. They are superficial, and I feel the Ogden voter is a lot more savvy than we give them credit for, assuming they have a choice of a decent candidate in each election, which they often do not.
I sent this letter to the council members this week. I feel this is something we as a community need to address, with no more foot dragging – it’s the matter Sharon raised about the Golf Course. I post the letter here to raise greater awareness.
Dear City Council Members,
As you know, for many months your constituents have been living in fear. This has been caused by the mayor’s stated intention to sell Mount Ogden Golf Course and the energetic efforts of staff to clear the legal road so he can do that more easily, by pushing for changes to the zoning and General Plan that were specifically requested by Tom Ellison.
One of your fellow council members has worked tirelessly, and has offered some straightforward code changes to return a requirement for council approval of city land sales. This is consistent with reason and common sense, and as you know, it is also specifically consistent with state law, as anybody can read in the code, below.
10-3-1219.5. Council-mayor form -- Ordinances on transfer of municipal property and regulation of subdivisions or annexations.
In the council-mayor form of government, the council shall, by ordinance, provide for the manner in which:
(1) municipal property is bought, sold, traded, encumbered, or otherwise transferred; and
(2) subdivisions, or annexations are approved, disapproved or otherwise regulated.
Enacted by Chapter 39, 1979 General Session
However, you have been provided with the remarkable opinion from staff that a court ruling, Martindale v. Anderson in 1978, supersedes this state law, even though the state law was passed after the ruling and therefore clearly supersedes the ruling!
Now you may say you are not lawyers and must therefore rely upon staff in legal matters. This is an abdication of your responsibility to your constituents! You know full well that there are times that staff strikes you as less than fully trustworthy. Surely, given that staff is telling you that city councils across the entire state are barred by the law from approving city land sales, this is one of the times to be very skeptical. Or do you suppose Mayor Godfrey could sell the municipal building tomorrow to any one of his friends, and Utah state law bars you from having any say? And do you suppose that any mayor in Utah could sell the city fire station or water works to a crony, with no approval from council, as Ogden city staff ludicrously maintains?
Please pass the ordinance requiring city council approval for land sales, returning power to the council that was abrogated by a prior council. If staff wishes to maintain their asinine position that it is “illegal,” let them litigate it, if they can find a judge to hear them. In the meantime, the ordinance will be the law of the city.
Next, you are aware that the Weber State Board of Trustees voted to retain their bench land – stating they will be selling none of it. This decision was derided by Mayor Godfrey as a “farce” in public comments he made at WSU. Shortly thereafter, the state Board of Regents voted the same thing – their land will not be sold. What is stopping you from passing a similar resolution regarding Mount Ogden Golf Course and other city bench land? If fear of the mayor disparaging you is so daunting, then why can’t you simply muster the courage the Trustees and the Regents showed? Why continue to allow your constituents to writhe in terror that Godfrey could fulfill his stated intention, and sell our “crown jewels” at any time? Please, act!
Please pass the resolution stating you will not sell city bench properties, as state officials have already done regarding WSU land, and then pass the ordinance to require city council approval for land sales, making it retroactive to July 1, 2007. Please stop deferring to an unelected staff that clearly has their own agenda, contrary to the public’s wishes. Lift the burden of worry from your constituents as you have the power, and the duty, to do. Please do it now.
Nice analysis, David.
You've explicitly explained the argument in a nutshell.
It's about six months past the time when the council ought to have acted on this... but there's still time to do this.
If Boss Godfrey suddenly conveys the Mt. Ogden Park property to his "bestest buddy" Chris Peterson, in the weeks after the November election (win or lose) -- without the city council having acted to preserve our parklands -- there will be SIX sitting council members who'd better be prepared to pack their bags and move to a new town where legal process from Utah can't be served.
>>>sharon said...
Oh, Curm, I'm going to take a nap. Perhaps one would be good for you too.
Not to worry, Sharon, the blissed out Curmudgeon even naps during his waking hours.
Danny:
I'd disagree only with your final paragraph: Please, if you are thinking about running for city council or mayor, run. Even if you only plan to show up a few times a year for important issues and votes, please run. It’s what you do on the job, not how much time you spend at it. We sure could use a few more people who aren’t self-absorbed morons like Godfrey, Saftsen, and Stephenson.
Wrong, I think, in nearly every line. No, we do not need Council members who "only plan to show up a few times a year for important issues." Absolutely not. Being a good Council member is damn near a full time job. It requires the investment of a great deal of time and effort to stay abreast of issues, to read the weekly packets from various commissions, to attend the study and work and RDA sessions; to stay in touch with constituents; to dig for more information in order to be able to ask intelligent and probing questions. We do not need anyone on the Council, of any political leaning, who is not willing to do the heavy lifting required. [One of the things I like about Councilwoman Wicks is her willingness to put in the time and work the job requires for it to be done well.]
And those of us who think Ogden needs to replace its mayor, as I do, had better not go into this election assuming he is a moron. The evidence strongly suggests otherwise. He's shrewd. He has a painfully weak grasp on what ethical conduct requires of an elected official, he has no inking of the concept of separation of powers in municipal government, and his judgment leaves much to be desired. But he is not unintelligent and it would be a foolhardy to assume that he is.
Ditto Mr. Safsten, whose record shows that he is not a knee-jerk unthinking supporter of the mayor's policies. We have often disagreed, the Councilman and I. That does not make him either a sycophant or a fool. Sometimes, I think critics expect an unlikely degree of agreement with them in any public official. In any case, Mr. Safsten is not running and so gratuitous comments about him serve little purpose, I think.
Mr. Stephenson is another matter. While other members of the council... all of them... vote on matters that come to them from the administration, Mr. Stephenson seems not so much to vote as to genuflect in the Mayor's direction. His comments during Council sessions I've heard have only reinforced that impression. In the past few years he has, so far as I can tell, nearly never [in fact, I can think of only one instance] exercised the kind of independent judgment that the other members exercised, in greater or lesser degree, fairly often.
But I no more want a council dominated by those who would oppose anything the Mayor favors simply because the Mayor favors it than I would want a Council full of Mr. Stephensons, who would approve of anything the Mayor favors simply because the Mayor favors it. Neither kind of Council would be good for Ogden.
Good old (?) Curmudgeon:
Do you mean "inkling"? You are wrong, I think. Local oaf Rick Safsten has proven himself to be nothing but a big, doofy shadow of Teeny Matty Godfrey, and his eight years of this sycophancy are evidence of such. One need only remember his comments about how pushing forward the "discovery" process regarding Wayne Peterson's and Lying Little Matty Gondola Godfrey's (possible gay lovers) non-proposed "proposal" to steal our land. Safsten, Stephenson, John Gullo, Geigers, Meeny-miny Matty and more are indeed all morons. And you should feel no shame in directing thusly pejoratives their way. And about Sharon's "denigrating" Descente and its six employees: Hell no is OTown better off because those clowns moved here; they receive taxpayer subsidized rent for their warehouse and they have been the absolute root cause of the majority of community discord since they brought that fagass brand into town. OTown would be much better off if their Japanese owners (and re-read THE SKI IS BEAUTIFUL BLUE's commentary about he being a "business owner" when he doesn't own jackshit; as you write, he leases space from OTown's biggest clown, Bernie Allen) yanked them the f""" outta here. Begone, onion lovers and spewers of untruth! And furthermore, Teeny Matty is a moron, because he thinks he can distance himself from his Gondola Godfrey identity when he did nothing for two years but tell us all how THE GONDOLA is going to make us all millionaires, what with its shit orbs underneath its cars and all. Good God, man, we are not dealing with people who will listen to your professorial fairness and rationale; we are dealing with sick, self-deluded morons, and they need to be treated as such. If Godfrey were "shrewd," as you write, he wouldn't have dumped his entire chest of meager political capital into his SILLY GONDOLA TO NOWHERE. The word is out on all these clowns. Do you think an onion-smelling Geiger will file for office? Yes, they will be hard to beat, but beat they will be. Because we demand it, and we will work toward it.
Council Woman Wicks and Rep. Neil Hansen are two best public servants Ogden has had. They have our support.
I agree; Council Woman Wicks and Rep. Neil Hansen are two best public servants Ogden has had. They have stepped up for us. They have our support.
There was a commission being set up to regulate the stock market in the wake of the Enron stuff. The asked Paul Volker to head it. He told them he could give them 10 hours a week. They told him it needed to be full time. He said no. Moreover, none of the good people he knew could spend full time on it.
So they found somebody who had the time - not somebody more committed, but simply less talented, and so he had more free time. So if it takes 20 hours a week to be on the council, only people who have that much time to sit, listening to bureaucrats, getting themselves into things they should stay out of, will run. The more talented, and more involved people, will be automatically disqualified. Sorry to our elected officials, but it's the truth.
People, do not listen to Curm on this because he is simply wrong. City council members, when they spend 20 hours a week, are taking 20 hours away from their own lives and drawing 20 hours a week closer to the views of the government and its sycophants. The less time they spent, the better elected officials they would be.
As far as Rick, he voted only once against the mayor on a major issue. As a result, his cronies would not support him, and that is the real reason he is not running.
As far as the mayor and Rick being morons, I did not mean they are unintelligent. I meant they are lousy. In that, I stand corrected.
But we need people who are smart, courageous, and reliable. From that standpoint, we have exactly one really good council member, or perhaps, two.
I attended a neighborhood BBQ on July 4, to which, coincidentally, Little Lying Matty Gondola Godfrey was not invited, even though he lives a couple blocks away, and one of our new arrivals used to work at Rooster's. She said she served a table of eight that hosted Teeny Matty's family, and that the aforementioned party of eight, which rang up an $85 tab, left her with $5 in gratuity. Just a nice little side note on Little Matty, Lil' pal. By the way, of the 35 or so Ogden residents and registered voters in attendance, zero is voting for Little Lying Matty.
Danny:
You wrote: As far as Rick, he voted only once against the mayor on a major issue.
You are simply wrong on the facts here. (1) When the Mayor proposed adding, at the city's risk, two floors to the Junction office block against the recommendation of the city's consultants, Mr. Safsten was in the 4-3 majority that rejected the Mayor's plan. (2) When the mayor nominated Mr. Chapman, loud and even belligerent proponent of the various gondola proposals, for a seat on the planning commission, Mr. Safsten consulted with constituents, looked at Mr. Chapman's public statements, and concluded his appointment would not be in the city's best interest and voted with the majority not to ratify the appointment. (3) When the Mayor, who as director of the Ogden RDA, refused to tell the Council [i.e. the Board of RDA, to whom he reports] who was behind the Bootjack bid for RDA property, Mr. Safsten was part of the unanimous Council vote to revise RDA landsale procedures to require disclosure of that information in the future.
Three examples, right there, of Mr. Safsten's exercising independent judgment in ways that put him on the opposite side of the administration. I wish he had done so more often. But the claim that he opposed administration policy only once is flatly false on the evidence.
You also wrote: People, do not listen to Curm on this because he is simply wrong. City council members, when they spend 20 hours a week, are taking 20 hours away from their own lives and drawing 20 hours a week closer to the views of the government and its sycophants. The less time they spent, the better elected officials they would be.
Well, on this we will simply have to agree to disagree. I've attended Council work sessions and study sessions and it is at those sessions that much of the Council's real work gets done. It's at those sessions that fully prepared members [who have read their packets... and it sometimes is painfully clear that all of them have not... who have dug around on their own, who have taken seriously information provided by interested constituents] ask the questions the administration does not want asked. It's at those sessions that some really stinky suggestions the administration is attempting to slide by get asked about, get exposed as unsupported [and unsupportable] and that get sent back for change.
Does simply putting in 20 hours [sometimes more than that] guarantee someone will do a good job? Of course not. But not showing up for the work sessions, not doing the required reading, not doing the digging for more information than is coming from the administration, not taking the time... yes time... to consult with interested constituents [on all sides of issues] very nearly guarantees that a Council member will not do a very good job.
The mayor --- any mayor, not just Godfrey --- has on his payroll a team of full time people generating information and preparing to present it in ways favorable to the administration's wishes. It takes a committed Council member, willing to put in a great deal of time, to develop an independent point of view on a wide variety of matters, and the evidence to support that independent view so he [or she] can convince other Council members of the rightness of his view and the wrongness of the Administration's [when he thinks the administration is wrong.]
Finally, there are a lot of things the Council does that must be done in timely fashion for the city to run well and provide the services it is supposed to provide. Just by way of two examples: police and firemen contracts [pay and benefits levels, etc] and the overall city budget. All those things are complex and involve balancing a variety of interests and competing resoucees. The general budget particularly is a very complex matter and takes substantial time and effort to unravel and understand. I don't think the city would be, could be, well-served by Council members who didn't attend the work sessions, didn't put in the time, and merely phoned in their votes at the end.
So on this, Danny, we are not, I suspect, going to find common ground.
Encouraging news from that BBQ. Jesus, how can 8 people go to Roosters and come away having rung up only $85? Wha'd they have, watercress salads + water? Poor tipping, how Utahn.
Sometimes I think the pantywaist Curmudgeon secretly prefers the Godfrey administration.
He's obviously not familiar with council work sessions, in which Bill Cook, Gary Williams and Matthew Godfrey flail the council with their vindictive. Attending citizens, few of them that there are, are of course NOT allowed to speak.
The best work sessions of all, of course, are the "closed sessions," where these three adminstration Nazi Clowns single out and browbeat individual council members mercillously, especially the women, and beat them into submission, while most of the other council members sit back like frightened rabbits, thanking their lucky stars that Boss Godfrey hasn't drawn a bead on them.
Yes, I DID mention Bill Cook.
Get real, Curmudgeon, The behavior of Ogden City back-room government doesn't even remotely resemble the idealist "crap" that you teach your young college students or spew here.
During the American Revolution, Curmudgeon, you no doubt would have been labelled a "loyallist," who would have self-protectively boarded a ship from New York City to England for your own protection... after the signing of the Anglo-American peace treaty.
Your knee-jerk propensity to defend the "enemy" is wearing very thin.
I do hope Rudi will do something about this.
Patriot. Amen. But let me try a little different tack.
I do feel, Curm, we can find common ground. The one vote that cost Saftsen his seat was the Junction office swing vote. I'd forgotten about Dusty Chapman. The other vote you cite was a no-brainer. So I concede the details, but not the essence.
As far as the time they spend, I have to maintain that most of what the city council does involves:
1. Listening to drivel from bureaucrats that they could scan, and decide, in seconds. They should ask for written material rather than the oral presentations.
2. Dealing with issues they should not be dealing with. Example: Ernst Home Health. They asked good questions, but the one the didn't ask was: Why are we in the real estate business at all?? Auction off the commercial land that the city owns and let whoever wants buy it.
As a result of the time they waste, 90% plus of the time they spend, they never cover things that are important, like safeguarding the bench and the golf course.
If you concede they have to spend the 20 hours a week the bureaucrats say they do, the war is already largely over. The bureaucrats are way ahead of you on this Curm. Try to catch up.
Folks, this is the legacy of our free land. We can talk, rather than having wars with each other. Never fear to speak your mind. But be willing to listen to sincere and honest people, whatever they say.
Ah, patriot... the ability of True Believers so puffed up with their own virtue to turn on their allies and weaken their own chances for winning at the polls are truly astonishing.
I don't think I have to establish my credentials as one of those who thinks Ogden needs, badly, a new mayor. About two years of posts here should have established that pretty clearly. But disagree [largely on a matter of tactics] with what some True Believer Everything the Mayor Does is Evil Anything But Constant Abuse of Him Is Treason people think, and lo and behold, I'm a Godfrey mole.
Amazing. Keep it up. Keep going after people who oppose Hizzonah but don't agree with your preference for tactics or your take on every matter. Insist on total conformity with your view on the other, or banishment into the ranks of Godfeyites on the other...and watch Hizzonah laugh his way back into office.
Sigh.
Fence-sitters like you were worthless during the American Revolution, just as they are now.
When the time comes to oust tyrants, the real patriots won't be found with slivers in their butts.
Sorry, but that's true.
Please make up your mind which side you're on.
Patriot:
Well, what you might want to do before you go invoking the Rebels of 1775 is a little research. They fought like cats and dogs over tactics, war strategy, political decisions, and a great deal more. Endlessly. Throughout the Revolution. And without accusing each other of being traitors. Imagine that....
"...And without accusing each other of being traitors."
Traitors?
Like Bemedict Arnold?
I don't think you're quite there yet.
Nevertheless it hardly serves "the cause" when you're constantly making excuses for your supposed opponents' bad behavior.
Think about it.
Danny:
You wrote: Folks, this is the legacy of our free land. We can talk, rather than having wars with each other. Never fear to speak your mind. But be willing to listen to sincere and honest people, whatever they say.
Exactly right.
As for selling the public parklands to his crony for the Mayor's loopy wildly speculative flatland gondola to WSU scheme: I'd merely point out that Hizzonah first floated this turkey two years ago or so. To date, nothing has actually happened... in fact no "Peterson proposal" has yet even appeared despite several promises that one was only months away. And this in spite of a long [ and occasionally very noisy] Lift Ogden campaign to gin up "popular" support for the scheme. And Council members have not simply rolled over and played dead to accommodate Mr. Peterson's attorney's preference for ordinance revisions.
The plan has flopped so badly, so far, that Hizzonah no longer believes [when speaking to newspapers at least] that the gondola is Ogden's future, merely, he says now, something he wants to keep looking at to "see if it makes sense." And the plan has flopped to the point that he's said to the papers that it will not be a major goal of his third term. No, of course nobody over the age of two who is allowed out in public without a keeper believes him.
This is not of course solely the result of Council action. Citizen groups like Smart Growth Ogden have played a role in the outcome to date by offering solid information about the unwisdom of the scheme and alternative ideas to foster growth in Ogden, as has the WSU Board of Regents. Aided of course by the evident loopiness and wildly speculative nature of the plan. But the Council has played a role as well. I wouldn't totally discount the impact of the Council [since the previous election] in bringing the current state of things about.
The mayor has, however, been sadly successful in blocking any action to carry forward the transit option recommended by the Wasatch Front Regional's study --- a trolley line from downtown to WSU and McKay Dee. I am disappointed that the present Council has not succeeded in beginning the "alternatives analysis" necessary to receive federal grants to get the project rolling.
Do I wish they'd done more? Sure. But on the mayor's gondola vision they have not rolled meekly over at the Mayor's command. We need to make sure the next Council doesn't either, which is why the coming Council elections are so important.
We're not going to agree completely on the time matter. [Which disagreement in no way makes me suspect you are a Godfrey Mole who would have been a Tory in '76.]
Here's an idea: let's re-elect Councilwoman Wicks and Councilwoman Hooser [if she runs --- she hasn't announced yet] and replace Stephenson on the Council, and then you and I can have a good old Pier Six brawl over how much time they should spend on the job.
Deal?
Patriot:
I'd be interested in knowing when I've "made excuses" for Mayor Godfrey's "bad behavior." By my count... wait a minute, let me add it all up... ah, yes, here's the total: never.
"I'd be interested in knowing when I've "made excuses" for Mayor Godfrey's "bad behavior." By my count... wait a minute, let me add it all up... ah, yes, here's the total: never"
Oh Puleeze!
Just for all of you, the letter from Mr. Galvez is really about helping his son out, who works for the BOYER COMPANY in BDO, and the junk shun. I bet there is any link to that truth.
Remember how Amy barely won against that Godfrey sycophant, who claimed that Amy won because she's a woman? It won't be that close the next time around. Everyone who meets Amy likes Amy, and anyone who gets to know her loves her. We are blessed with Amy. I just worry about her riding around on that scooter. Amy, please wear your helmet!
And another thing... my water pressure is lame sometimes. And it appears that a noticable number of people in my hood are replacing thier sewer laterals. Um, PIPE is important. I vote for PIPE. Therefore, I vote for AMY.
Curm, we have to disaggree. Any known associate or suspected lying little matty backer will be,attacked without mercy. We have far too much at stake and cannot afford the risk of "one" of those pitifull SOBs succeeding in this up coming election. I will personally volunteer mine and a small army of rabbid godrfey geiger opposition's help, to any candidate that will publicly state they're running against anything godfrey.
I must voice my disappointment that no one here, or Schwebke, bothered to inform the people of Ogden of the Geigers,(potato nose and his short deck spawn) assault on an 85 yr. old retired school teacher 2 weeks ago, right in the Council chambers. The officer on duty had to intervene and the incident was witnessed by some of the Council members.
These two represent lying little matty's closest confidants and have acted on his behalf on many occations. They are a public nuisance and should be delt with accordingly. Furthermore, pinnoccio peccary godfrey should be required to take responsibily for their actions and offer a public apology to the victim, as well as a public rebuking of potato nose and his ingrate spawn.
Just who do these #@&*s think they are?
Amen and Amen!
Bill C:
Not sure what you're disagreeing about with me, since I've posted often on the need to elect the same council candidates I think you are supporting. Only possible disagreement I can see is this: I think over the top intemperate attacks on Godfeyistas is more likely to help such candidates than hurt them.
Your vote's in the bag already, Bill. You're not voting for a Godfrey supporter no matter what. The staunch Godfreyistas votes are in the bag as well. Mr. Geiger is voting for Godfrey backers no matter what. The votes in play are the undecideds. And I think, on the evidence in many elections, shrill over the top assaults tend to drive the undecideds away, not bring them into the fold.
Other than that disagreement on a tactical matter, I'm hard put to find much of anything we disagree about.
Curm, we probably don't have any disaggreement. I'm just letting the world know that we have more than enough dope on pinnoccio and his ilk , and will be constantly reminding one and all any way we can what a dishonest disaster this lying little narcissust has been for Ogden, and any one that buys into one bit of his bs will regret saying so.
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