First, Scott Schwebke reports that the Ogden City Council passed a resolution at last night's meeting, opening the door to the public process:
OGDEN — City Council adopted a resolution Tuesday night that sets the wheels in motion for fact-finding and public input for a $500 million proposal that includes the possible sale of Mount Ogden Golf Course to developer Chris Peterson.Weber County Forum is keeping its fingers crossed that the ensuing public process will indeed be transparent, informative and robust. It also seems to us that one of the first matters of business ought to be obtaining independent appraisals for the Mt. Ogden parkland property, so we will have more than just a vague idea of what that magnificent property is really worth in economic terms, before we start in on the horse-trading.
The council members made it clear in approving the resolution that they have not taken a position on the proposal, but want extensive public involvement before making a decision that could have a longlasting and profound impact on the city’s future.
“It’s going to have a weighty impact on Ogden,” said Councilman Doug Stephens. “It’s important that we do it the right way.”
The resolution instructs the City Council’s staff to develop a comprehensive public input process on Peterson’s proposal.
It will set out how the council discusses the plan with other groups that may be affected, such as the city’s Planning Commission, Weber County, Weber State University, Utah Transit Authority, and the Utah Department of Transportation.
The City Council will also likely hold a series of public meetings and workshops as part of the fact-finding process.
Councilman Brandon Stephenson said it is vital that the board formulate an “educated opinion” before making a decision on the proposal.
Councilwoman Amy Wicks agreed, adding residents and stakeholders must be kept informed about the process. “It’s important that it be an open, transparent process so that everyone is aware of what’s going on,” she said.
The council has not established a time frame for the public input process or voting on Peterson’s proposal.
The Std-Ex also features a thought-provocative "he said-she said," "duelling guest commentary" series on the editorial page today, in response to the question, "Should Ogden build a gondola?
Stephen L. Richey unabashedly compares "entrepreneur" Chris Peterson to formidible Ogden industry captains of old, and invokes the names of Browning, Eccles, Kiesel, Wattis, among others. Whether Mr. Peterson's name belongs on this illustrious list remains an open question to many of us. Perhaps we'll learn a lot more about this heretofore very secretive man, and his true financial capacity and intentions, as the public process now begins to unfold.
Jay Hudson offers a unique (and sorely neglected) perspective too, we think. His commentary focuses on the donative nature of the Mt. Ogden parkland property, and the possible negative impact upon Ogden City philanthropy, as "can do" "willow in the wind" Ogden politicians yet again pursue the "silver bullet" public project du jour, and move toward "cashing out" another generously-donated public parkland gift.
And don't forget today's Chris Peterson "open house," which will be held from noon til six in the WSU Union Ballroom C today. For those of us eager to get "up front and personal" with Chris, today's event presents a fantastic opportunity, we think.
The floor is open. What's on out gentle readers' minds today?
Update 4/20/06 4:47 p.m. MT - Media News Wrap-up: There were reporters from northern Utah's three major newspapers in attendance at yesterday's Chris Peterson open house. We've already had some discussion in our herein comments section from gentle readers who sat in on Mr. Peterson's presentation(s). For the convenience of our gentle readers, and to flesh-out the discussion, we are linking here the "takes" from the points of view of the Standard-Examiner, Deseret News and Salt Lake Tribune reporters.
Additional comments or comparisons, anyone?
19 comments:
For any one to compare Peterson to those industrial giants of Ogden, like the one op-ed writer does, is breath takingly stupid.
It shows a complete lack of knowledge of those great Ogden pioneers and what they did for this city.
Incidently, there was not one of them that made their fortunes mooching off the tax payers like Peterson is trying to do.
Peterson made what money he does have by marrying a rich girl. He made absolutely nothing on his own abilities and efforts. He was a mooch with the Holding's and he is attempting to do the same to the tax payers of Ogden.
He wouldn't make a pimple on the ass of any one of those great Ogden industrialists, or Earl Holding either!
Look up Tim Blixseth On the net. His Yellowstone Club World which involves properties all over the world, jets, yachts, golf courses, resorts, etc. is estimated to cost $500 million. He is a billionaire and can afford it. Chris Peterson and the mayor are lying to the public. There is no way this dream will cost the kind of money they are talking. The worst thing is that some people are so stupid or naïve, they don’t know the difference between $5 million and $500 million and truly believe that he is going to spend that kind of money.
Even if he is putting in 400 high end homes ($1 million plus) there are not enough people in the state of Utah who can afford them. Especially in Ogden. This is a scam!!
I can’t wait to see the world class skiing on the west side of the mountain. It’s just a way to get a tram up to Snow Basin at tax payers expense and get some of the most expensive east side property for cheap to develop homes. And they won’t be in the price range they are talking.
It was appalling to see Peterson compared to BROWNING, MALAN, ECCLES and the others who built their fortunes on their own, and who DONATED to the city of Ogden. Shame on Steve Richey for attempting to make us believe Peterson is a philanthropist.
BTW, those million dollar homes will not be 'owned' by the educated, smart people who will flock to them. They are purchasing a 'footprint', only. Kind of glorified condos.
I recall the RV convention here several years ago. One RV cost a million dollars and even featured a gigantic chandelier and all the other trappings of opulent decadence. The best part though, the RV owner held the proof of OWNERSHIP and registration, and could take his 'wheelprints' with him. He didn't have to have an 'association' giving him rules to drive by.
It will be interesting to hear Peterson open up about his experience as a developer/home builder. Also, is he going to want to have his 'books' open to the public when these forums get under way?
Will he bear close scrutiny? Ernest Hospital couldn't.
I too attended today's WSU 3:00 "public session."
The room was packed.
Asque got it pretty much right.
It was a "condo sales job" without the close.
There was NO significant new information.
A WCF hat-tip goes out to the business-savvy gentle reader asque. Noticeably, CP neglected to discuss any of the nuts-and-bolts dollars & cents aspects of the proposed transaction.
The Ogden "bumpkins and bobbleheads" -- Chamber of Commerce types -- continue to reel like dumb okies from CP's PR sales-job.
Curiously, when your humble blogmeister requested CP's "powerpoint data" in digital form from CP, he was referred to a lithe & comely lass named "katie," from an Ogden-based PR marketing company known as "Pinnacle Marketing"
If you feel you, as an Ogden citizen, have been the victim of a stealth guerilla "psy-ops" marketing campaign, I would suppose you should thank Pinnacle Marketing for that.
The geigers should apologize to the people of Ogden, I think... and quietly retire to their new home base in Osaka.
Godfrey should resign forthwith, and check himself into a good mental health facility.
And we'll all live happily ever after.
I am beginning to suspect that Mr. Peterson did commission a feasibility study for his Malan's Basin ski resort, one that examined the project meteorologically and financially, and the results did not come out as he wished. If that suspicion is accurate, it becomes clear why he suddenly added getting Mt. Ogden Golf Course to develop as part of the plan. It's the only way he can raise the money to proceed, since, sans feasibility study with favorable results, it's highly doubtful any banks will loan him the cash to go ahead.
I suspect that may be what is behind advocates for the plan beginning to suggest that, well, it wasn't really supposed to be a ski resort mostly, it was supposed to be "a mountain resort" all along, with skiing only a relatively minor part of the mix. Very curious that they've begun that switch. After Peterson and the Geigers and Lift Ogden assured us for months that the idea was a "world class ski resort" in Malan's Basin which would bring skiers from all over the world to ride our gondolas to get to it, and to stay in our [as yet unbuilt] world class hotels, wandering among shops by Prada, Gucci and Donna Karen after dinner.
And I recall the Mayor's pitch to the Council in which he waxed eloquent about the appeal to skiers of being able to walk off a plane at SLC, onto a Trax car which would connect with a Frontrunner train which would let them off in Ogden where they could step onto a gondola which would take them to their hotel lobby and on to WSU where they could change gondolas and get to the world class ski resort at Malan's Basin. Hizzonah went on for some time about the appeal of all that to skiers. And now the spectacle of supporters de-emphasizing skiing in favor of a "Malan's Basin Mountain Resort."
I guess the Mayor didn't get the memo.
I too attended the open house. From the gondola stats:
8 person cars every 30 seconds
Speed is 11-15 mph
Slows down for boarding
ADA compliant
From this I gather that even though it does not stop for boarding, the cars conform to the Americans with Disabilities act. In researching this further, I took a look at Spokane's gondola, which "features 15 lilac colored Six passenger cars that are fully ADA compliant." So perhaps this is just some cars, not all of them.
Here's the link to it: Spokane Falls Skyride
But back to Ogden's proposed gondola project--Chris Peterson emphasized that this project will use no new tax dollars. He also emphasized that the golf course land and the land behind the University are crucial to the project.
The resort will be built in a South Tyrolean style, with both "free and fee" activities. Taking a mountain bike up on the gondola, for instance, would cost, but of course simply riding it around the resort would not. Peterson stated that he would be applying to the Forest Service for a special permit to extend the gondola to the top of the mountain. From there, it is a 4,500 foot drop, which one could ski down, to the Ogden City limits.
He stated that visiting tourists would have no need for rental cars, I assume because they would go directly from their downtown hotel to the resort via gondola. One thing he wished feedback on from the public is whether the public wanted more stops. Every stop for this gondola would cost $1 million and 1 minute of travel time.
He has already installed two via ferrata routes, will have an experimental ice climbing wall, and there will be new trails added.
Regarding the golf course, it would be totally rebuilt into a "bigger and better" 18 hole course. The club house would be moved to the south end of the course next to the houses he will build. These houses will not be large, but modestly sized. All outside work---lawns, flower planting, driveway shoveling, etc., will be done by the golf course maintenance people, because the owners of these houses will not own the property around them. "Houses will also be interspersed in the golf course."
He estimates that these houses will bring $5 million in property tax revenue, and stated that half will go to Ogden City Schools and half to Ogden City and Weber County. (I do not think this is right. I think the schools get more than half of the property taxes, but will have to check on it.) He also estimates $9 million in increased revenue to WSU from the influx of new students this project will bring.
Two biographical facts about him I didn't know---he worked 18 years for Sinclair Oil and was one of the founding members of Salt Lake's "Downtown Alliance."
Salt Lake City Downtown Alliance
So there you have it. My contribution to Weber County Forum:
All Gondolas, All The Time.
We attended the 5 pm pitch. Goodly crowd. CP almost begged for suggestions..."how many stops do you want?"..He suggested a stop between the high school and Mt. Ogden Middle School. School buses drop off the kids now right in front of the schools! He said riders would WALK about 1500 ft between stops....and as Dian stated, each stop would cost about 1 M.
Wow! Pretty expensive stops. Also, that's a long walk if one is dragging little children, packages, strollers, etc. Or, students are dashing to class.
He talked about WSU being able to build a 2 tier parking terrace on 6 acres. Well, if that many cars are going to park at the college, why do they need the gondola?
His projections of 1000 NEW students each year will bring in 9 Million bucks to WSU annually!
Is that going to be the case every year? If so, what will happen in a couple years to the overload in classrooms and drain on teaching staff? WHERE DID HE GET THESE FIGURES???
We've all noticed the lack of financial details. No studies of note. AND, it all hinges on WSU giving up their land and him obtaining Mt. Ogden Golf Course.
A house of cards or dominoes. Pull one and it all comes crashing down.
CP also said he was on the planning commission for TRAX in SLC...and The Downtown Alliance in San Diego..may have the name wrong.
His lack of experience in home building was glaring. He WAS more polished than at the 'private' LO meeting two weeks ago. This time he didn't bring up the 2000 dorm rooms downtown. He mderated the tone of his potential buyers. Middle aged...most of children, if not all, out of the home. Didn't sound quite so 'Aryan Nation" with his "smart, educated" people who would bring "smart, educated employees", IF these home buyers WERE going to open businesses here. He didn't denigrate Iowa this time!!!
I had the impression that he and his handlers read this blogsite, and so knew that he needed to tone down the 'pie in the sky' sales pitch to maybe just a 'brownie with ice cream.'
I talked at some length with a very pleasant LO supporter. He thinks Godfrey has been a bad steward of the city's finances...(taxpayers' money,) and we agreed that Godfrey has betrayed our trust. Enlightening.
I thought the displays were very 'high schoolish' also. That blurry aerial view of Ogden was on the screen...no pointer used by CP. A most amatuerish presentation.
I hope some of you were able to read many of the comments written on those large sheets of paper.
The ones I read wanted answers about financing. One asked if CP would sign a 100 year contract stipulating that Mt. Ogden Golf Course CANNOT be used to build more houses 'if the course fails'. HAH...Can't you just see CP gleefully rubbing his hands and licking his lips when the course didn't turn a profit one year?
I thought the tone of the comments were very cautious and not too impressed with this great plan for Ogden's salvation.
I can't see how businesses would would be helped by the gondola if each stop will cost 1 Million dollars!! To lose one minute at each stop means one would have to exit in a hurry and the same with boarding. Heaven help the infirm, or parents trying to gather up children and their paraphernalia!
Instead of the city being involved with the gondola and sale of Mt. Ogden Golf Course, PETERSON should build his gondola up to HIS basin. See how many tourists are eager to ride up there, either to ski, dine, or just enjoy the mountain. Keep good stats for about three years, taking into account how soon the novelty wanes. Keep stats on how many of the projected 1000 NEW students enroll at WSU because the gondola will take them to the Basin.
In the meantime, finish The Junction!!! Let's get those businesses in there who told Matt (so he told us) they'd come once the flow rider and climbing wall were in place! "We will be the only city in the country with this type of mall." (Oh, I'm feeling giddy at the thought).
Remember when Godfrey told us that NO other city in the U.S. had this high adventure rec center as a draw for riches and fame? Wonder why??
Finishing what he started with the same old snake oil pitch CAN be his legacy after all! And, a gondola to Malan's Basin for all the tourists to enjoy CAN be CP's legacy.
After reading Dian's summary of Mr. Peterson's plans to turn Ogden into the South Tyrol, I am sitting here wondering how WSU's mascot will look in lederhosen and whether the school's alma mater can sung to the tune of "Eidelweis"....
Instead of Malan's peak in the sky,
now Ogden residents will be able to enjoy
some Pie in the Sky!
Dontcha just love it?
Ms. Livermore:
Excellent post. Thank you. And loved the comment about his deciding to " tone down the 'pie in the sky' sales pitch to maybe just a 'brownie with ice cream.'" Lord, I wish I'd thought of that.
Excellent post.
Ah declare, Mister Curm...I think ah'm falling in love with y'all.
Thank you so much!
Upon attending the 5 pm dog and pony show, I did learn a few things.... I had the opportunity to step into a circle around demi-Godfrey to ask him if it wasnt true that the gondola isnt meant to fix the transportation issue at all but rather simply to get people up to the new ski hill. He agreed that is the case. And secondly he said that the car/parking/congestion on Harrison of some 20,000 WSU students would also find relief by riding it to and from school. I commented to him that it should not be touted then as this really great benefit for the citizens of Og.
Mercy Livermore said, "To lose one minute at each stop means one would have to exit in a hurry and the same with boarding." No worries there; gondolas "stack up" giving ample time to board and then get off without forgetting the kid or the grampa.
There is a plan for a hotel too! The gondola will pass right thru it on the way to ski. It'll be where Penney's used to be. CP turned down the opportunity to build it, but demi-Godfrey said a local was doing it. Anybody heard about that much?
I had many questions answered, but for me the jury is still out and my smartgrowthogden sign is firmly planted in my front yard. Oh yeah, CP let the term "smart growth" fly referring to what he had planned. I think I want a brownie.
Mr. Curmudgon
It seems to me like the "Eidelweis" is one of the buildings on Tom Owens' Old Mill estate in Farmington. I think Owens is a fan of the Mayor and maybe he would be willing to let this song fest that you propose be held there? I hear the place will hold a few hundred, is pretty nice, and may be just perfect for this kind of an event. I looked at it a few minutes ago, I think it would be perfect. Check it out and let us know if you think it would work for this kind of spectacularama . It is at ww.rockmill.com - and is the building now called the "studio".
It is the closest we will get to Tyrol or lederhosen here in the land of Godfrey. By the way, I married my first husband there about 25 years ago. It was a magical place, although a lousy marriage.
How about those "opinions" in the SE today? All are against..cautious, not too enthused for the gondola scheme. One, Jill Smith, thinks she'll support it because "we have to do something". Oy vey...that's the same uninformed, easily swayed mentality that allowed Godfrey to charge forward installing Gold's and Fat Cats as anchors at the old mall! "we just HAVE to do something about that old mud hole!"
Well....okay...let's do something, ferpetessake! Stop this gondola nonsense and tend to the pressing business of getting that 'old mud hole' sprouting SOMETHING..like, uh, well like, CONSTRUCTION???
This scheme smells like like the A/C failed at the fish market in August. Right on, asque..'be afraid'.
Hold Godfrey's tootsies to the fire and demand that he finish...START, would be cool, the construction at the Junction. Sounds like a song...not as catchy as Eidelweiss, tho.
In this morning's SL Tribune it was reported that the High Tech economy in Utah is thriving. There was $250 million dollars of new venture capital invested in Utah last year alone. The state's high tech jobs are over 49,000, and there were 4,700 new jobs added last year alone. These are for the most part all pretty high paying positions with the average salary of over $50,000 per year.
Meanwhile Mayor Godfrey spends vitually all of his time, and that of his Million Dollar a year Development team, on chasing this Ski Resort dream and the handfull of start up ski companies that employ a very small number of people at around minimum wage.
After six years and many many millions of tax payer dollars expended, Mayor Godfey can boast of creating maybe 15 or 20 low paying jobs in Ogden.
Yet in this very tiring and very frequently run propoganda piece on Channel 17, the Geiger's and Peterson blantantly tell us what a great business man Godfrey is!
Good grief, do these people have no sense of shame?
As presentations for this for sort of thing goes, I did not think it was too bad. I have seen a lot slicker one's, and I have seen a lot worse. I certainly would not call it a "high school" level pitch. It obviously had no significant details on any of the import elements, but then most "introductory" pitches don't.
Chriss Peterson came across as a lot more personable and competent guy than I expected. He actually seemed like a pretty nice guy. Low key, confident and not a slickster.
The plan could have some very definate and positive aspects to it, IF IT WERE GOING TO BE DONE WITH STRICKLY PRIVATE MONEY.
The most troubling part of it for me is that the public is going to take the major risk if this project goes through as currently conceived. And make no mistake about it, this would be an extremely risky venture in spite of what the Mayor promises.
Usually along with taking the majority risk, an investor also takes the majority profit. In this case, the tax payers would be taking that risk, but would never enjoy the profits, except the "pie in the Sky" promises made by Peterson and the Mayor. So if the project did succeed, Peterson would make many millions, and the citizens would get no tangible benefit. If it was a huge financial disaster however, Peterson would probably take a relatively small hit, and the tax payers would take a major bath!
All of the substantiating numbers and assumptions that this plan is based on are all very speculative. The projected costs, the projected jobs to be created, the prospective customers that it may or may not draw, the added tax to the city, all seemed to be conjured up out of thin air and tailored to support this proposal. None of the projections and "facts" seemed realistic to me.
Also of great concern is the fact that the Mayor and the recources of Ogden seem to be completely dedicated to promoting this project. I do not think it proper that the Mayor, using city funds, should be out promoting a private developer. It seems like the developer should be doing all the heavy lifting and promoting, and the Mayor and other city officials should be sitting back analyzing, with an unbiased eye, what is being proposed and how it will effect the citizens if allowed to go forward. The Mayor should be advocating for the citizens, not a developer.
Another troubling aspect is the fact that there has evidently been no proposal or offer of any kind tendered to Weber State. Without Weber on board, this project will evidently not go forward. Yet the school officials don't know any more about what is being put forward than what they read in the papers.
It seems like a real competent development team would get a handle on the make or break aspects of a project before they take it to the level that this has.
Hopefully this is not indicitive of the competence of Peterson and his team.
Peterson apparently has some experience with the expansion of Snow Basin, but it seems like he does not have any background in high end housing development, which is identified as a major and key piece of making this thing happen. And speaking of the housing, is it really reasonable to think that they could sell 400 one million dollar houses in Ogden in a short period of time? It is the sale of these expensive homes that is the financial source for funding the mountain gondola and the resort.
What would happen to Ogden tax payers if we traded off our permanent park land open space for the down town gondola, and then Peterson could not sell enough of the expensive homes to finance his mountain gondola and resort? Would we be stuck with a huge and expensive white elephant and the permanent loss of this pristine open space to boot?
The down town gondola is projected to cost in the range of 10 to 15 million - depending on who you ask and what day it is. In any event, the Portland, Oregon gondola, which is under construction, is about half as long as the one proposed for Ogden. It was projected to cost $15 million, and is now past $57 million and is still not completed. It has become one of the worse fiscal disasters in Portland history.
I would hope that Peterson finds some way to finance the entire project - from the train station to the top of the mountain - with private funds. If he does, he may have a chance of pulling this project off. If he continues to try to get the public to pay for a signicant part of it, I fear it will get no further than the talking stage.
I believe the citizens of Ogden are sick and tired of the same old empty promises from the Godfrey administration. We were told for many years that the Mall development would not cost the tax payers anything. When all was said and done, the tax payers of Ogden are on the hook for $20 million dollars for the next twenty five years for a recreation center that the majority of people in town didn't even want to begin with.
Mayor Godfrey has lied to us repeatedly on development issues. He is absolutely not to be trusted, and in my opinion Chriss Peterson would do himself, and his project, a big favor by distancing himself from Godfrey and his grossly incompent development team - that million dollar a year gang that can't seem to shoot straight!
Well OzBoy...you've nailed the concerns almost all of are asking.
The number of NEW students annually, tourists dropping in like the proverbial flies to ride the gondola, the revenue to WSU, etc. DO appear to be manufactured from thin air. Hey! Not a bad idea for a new manufacturing firm right here in Ogden...get a patent on that post haste......need numbers? We've got 'em conjured up out of rarefied thin air.
Of course, the burdened folks will end up paying for Matt's dreeeeeam. Look at the mudhole mall.
Peterson's visuals were 'high schoolish', OzBoy. His act was cleaner and pared down from the recent LO meeting. He didn't make the same gaffes.
However, we haven't seen one feasibility study...no geologist's reports on the safety of building on that hillside. Where are the tree huggers? They usually weigh in on the environmental issues. They DID ask Matt what he planned to do in the canyon....the plan now is different from his answers a couple years ago.
The SE reports a 'lukewrm' reception to the plans. The comments yesterday were also lukewarm to ice cold. One of the questions the Sierra Club asked Matt received the reply that he would do nothing against the desires of the people of Ogden. Oh yeah?? Who wants to wager?
Once that land is turned over to Peterson, not only is the lovely green space gone forever, but we will have betrayed the trust and magnanimous gifts of those who SWEATED FOR THIER FORTUNES AND DONATED TO OGDEN!
As I have pleaded before: Finish the mall! Get those new businesses here who promised to come when the 'high adventure' gym and bowling alley were in! We're already bonded for that over the next 25 years. Are we just going to take that burden onto our backs, lie down, give up and let Matt chase another vision for himself, family and Peterson?
If Peterson will do what was first leaked to us...build the *&^%$%$#! gondola to his basin with HIS money...then let's see what numbers (real ones) of tourists and NEW students ride the thing. Let's use Peterson's money to experiment with this magnificent gliding machine.
Godfrey is the mayor and steward for all the people in Ogden. We have needy amongst us. Some streets flood. Old water and sewer lines need replacing. Clean water should be enjoyed by all the residents!
Matt needs to turn his attention to finishing the mall, wooing those eager beaver businesses we heard so much about to open shop there. First things first. It's not his place to pimp for a private 'developer'.
Is pimping part of the mayoral oath and defined duties?
In today's SL Trib, there is a story about the Peterson presentation. It included this interesting information:
"Peterson said Wednesday that he would build a construction tramway, on towers paralleling the mountain gondola towers, to carry up all materials to build the mountain village, its 350 condominiums, shops and restaurants."
So, apparently, not only will the gondola towers march up the mountain, but towers for a construction tram will march up alongside them. Ducky. And he's going to put 350 condo units in Malan's Basin, along with the 400 private homes on the benches below?
750 units all told? First I've heard of the 350 condo units in the basin. First I've heard of the second gondola/tram marching up the mountain.
Has the plan changed yet again? It just keeps getting better and better.
Curmudgeon
If you think it was great today, just wait till tomorrow!
Mad Matt is one creative little dude. He has dreams each night and takes action on them the next day.
Ain't no mountain high enough for this little monster.
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