In recent months, Weber County residents have been subjected to a veritable barrage of information from the local media and private entities, touting a gondola system as a preferred urban transit option. Weber County Forum has also devoted considerable bandwidth to the discussion, with articles here, here, here, here and elsewhere on this weblog. For a time there we were tempted to re-name this place the "All Gondola Discussion Blog."In this connection, I've just received an email from one of our gentle readers, on the subject of a more traditional transportation alternative -- an urban streetcar system.
For readers interested in learning more about public transit alternatives, Weber County Forum is pleased to direct our gentle readers' attention to an upcoming community event. A public presentation" will be held on Monday, January 30th at 6:30 p.m. at the Lindquist Alumni Center, 1305 41st Street (East of WSU Credit Union.) The announced topic is "streetcars." Featured guest speakers will be John Sillito, (Professor of Library Science, Archivist and Curator of Special Collections at WSU,) and Jeffrey F. Boothe (Chairman and Executive Director of the "National" Community Streetcar Coalition.)
For more information on this event, just follow this link, to view a web brochure made available via the Smart Growth Ogden website.
Additional reader information or comments are invited, of course, as always.
Thank you very much.
Rudi has now left the building.
60 comments:
Rudi,
Thanks so much for the info on the Streetcar presentation on Jan 30.
Readers may be interested and excited to learn what has taken place in Portland, OR. (This is happening around the country in those communities that have adopted this mode of transportation),
The successful CENTRAL CITY STREETCAR in Portland has stimulated real estate investment and attracted thousands of middle and upper class residents to public transit. The five mile project has already leveraged more than $1 BILLION IN NEW DEVELOPMENT AND DOUBLED IT'S INITIAL RIDERSHIP PROJECTIONS. !!!
Anyone listening in Ogden????
This is happening around the country and easy to see why business and civic LEADERS are championing the streetcar renaissance. Revitalization for Ogden?? Streetcars, in this modern European-Style are stimulating powerful economic growth AND, they are charming.
Jeffrey Boothe has impressive credentials...so hope lots of you come to the presentation Mon. Jan 30 !
Can you post a source for the numbers on the Portland streetcar line? E.g. amount of new investment, doubled ridership estimates, etc?
Mrs. Curmudgeon and I rode the Portland trolley on a vist there last year. Easy to use, convenient, especially for connecting the University with downtown.
Hmmmmm. Do you suppose any mid sized city in Utah might be looking for a transit mode to connect its university with downtown that will stimulate business and residential development all along the route?
Mr.& Mrs. Cur,
Come to the meeting on Monday, Jan 30...and ask Mr. Boothe all kinds of questions. He'll be giving a power point presentation. Invite other interested people, eh?
It's OUR future, Mrs. Beech.
Every Ogden citizen needs to be educated on ALL the options...
in anticipation of a well-funded pro-gondola blitz.
Everybody "in the know" realizes that the gondola project will be the VERY NEXT item on the GodFREE agenda.
C'mon Journalist Rudi. Don't selectivly leave out the contact details on the Streetcar presentations. Who is it? Don't hold out on us or else quit claiming to be unbiased while conveniently leaving out details. It's right at the end of your e-mail you are getting your info. from. C'mon- Let's hear who it is, then we can all listen as the credibility plummets.
LOL, Anal in Arlington.
Our gentle reader submittOR would be NONE of the usual suspects.
I'm NOT a journalist, BTW.
I'm more like your local bartender, who graciously passes information on, as he receives it.
Nice try though...
and thanks for playin'
Make it a point to attend the January 30 event. Even YOU might learn a little somethin'
I am puzzled by "Angry's" post. The original post on WC forum gives the two speakers at the Streetcar meeting, gives their professional associations, and provides a link for more information which is identified in the post as provided by Smart Growth Ogden.
Pray tell, with all of that provided up front [as it should have been and was], why do we need to know who sent the e-mail containing the announcement of the meeting to Rudizink? Unless it was signed Jack Abrahmov or Osama Bin Laden, I'm having a hard time understanding why Angry thinks it's important information.
We all know exactly who it is. Why would you conveniently leave out the contact on the email? It's definately worth knowing about, since you are the king of the sourced underground information/consipracy theory.
Angry:
I've received notice of the meeting, so far, from three different people. And I have forwarded the notice to several others [though not to Rudizink]. Which one of three in particular is the one you think "we all know"?
Oh, yes. One more thing. If, as you suggest, "we all know" who sent notice of the meeting to Rudizink, what would be the point of his identifying who sent it to him? Since we all already know, according to you. Just curious.... Posting a note employing logic [politely so called] like that, may I conclude you are empolyed on the Mayor's staff?
The info about this meeting was on the front page of the Standard yesterday. The Standard also has obviously received this from somewhere. Perhaps it could be contacted and asked if this source is believed to be vital in some circles.
Mr Angry.
What a moniker.
How come when you angryite types use innuendo and 'I was told's", 'anonymous' letters and calls, etc....YOU don't give your sources? hmmmmm?
Come to the presentation. I bet we can guess YOUR identity by the angry heckling we'll hear?
Mr Angry.
What a moniker.
How come when you angryite types use innuendo and 'I was told's", 'anonymous' letters and calls, etc....YOU don't give your sources? hmmmmm?
Come to the presentation. I bet we can guess YOUR identity by the angry heckling we'll hear?
he-OGD said...
Opponents of a public Gondola System are hosting an "education session" to promote an ill concieved and outdated streetcar system for Ogden. We encourage you to attend and also encourage you to examine the links below to several sites revealing the truth about light rail and streetcars type systems. It's not pretty stuff and hope you have a strong stomach for some of the photos and stories.
Clearly the proponents of these systems have some ulterior motives or the backing of turn-of-the-century smokestack industries who continue to manufacture obsolete transportation systems based on surface rail. Most likely the steel, cement, and streetcar manufacturers who are the same folks who have severely mismanaged and misguided our transportation future to the point of crippling our economy. Why do cities and governments in the U.S. continue to lead us down the path of dependence on outdated transportation infrastructure. Coming soon to LiftOgden.com will be a Google map of Cableway installations around the world and the enhancement they have proven to the respective communities.
These rail and streetcar proponents continually stack their research against more modern conveyances insisting that communities endure years of surface construction, traffic disruptions, accidents and government subsidy. Streetcar systems routinely run in the red financially while Gondola and cableway systems routinely turn profits at ski resorts around the world.
Most of the links deal with the advantages of a Monorail system. While this kind of system is not being proposed for Ogden most of the infrastructural advantages are shared by both systems. A Gondola System is, in fact, considerably less expensive than a monorail system and is well-suited to Ogden's size and density.
Advantages of a Gondola system include: that they are largely automated requiring a minimum of manpower to operate as opposed to driver controlled streetcars, The towers are prefabricated and are simply bolted to a single foundation spaced several hundred feet apart requiring little construction disruption,
The system moves along silently under electrical power delivered at the bullwheel housed in a building many blocks away without ever disrupting street traffic,
Individual small cars dispersed evenly along the cable route is superior and more civilized to clunking and clanging streetcars hobbling along our streets crowded with 40 or 50 people, Streetcar tracks require intensive engineering to achieve and maintain gradients and drainage ways. Have you driven around Ogden? Imagine the construction to provide LEVEL tracks across ALL the intersections. That is why these systems always turn into huge cost overruns requiring federal government bailouts and subsidy. A gondola system simply spans all of these municipal obstacles and delivers it's services at a fraction of the cost of streetcar systems and can be online in a fraction of the timeframe. How is it that ski area can use Gondolas to move thousands of riders round routinely in a private enterprise atmosphere and when this system of conveyance is proposed for a city a few noisy squawkers are capable of clouding the view while they partake in a self-aggrandizing exercise in community education?
For whatever reason, these diehard streetcar enthusiasts continue to push these antiquated systems on communities with costly and deadly results. Perhaps they are content to live in a 19th century railroad museum. We prefer to look to the future and see that we are indeed a mountain community that with a little bit of vision can create perhaps the finest ski destination in the U.S. and perhaps the world by simply connecting our already beautiful city to the key destination resorts in our mountains. Everything else will follow this key infrastructure. Those who do not ski and snowboard or who insist that the only pure experience in the outdoors is to be gained from hiking cannot appreciate the opportunity this project presents to our city. Why take advice from those who are so sheltered recreationally. Recreation is what the quality of life is all about here in Ogden.
Please read as much as you can and judge the various transportation options for our future. Feel free to surf more of these sites and the links therein. There is far more education here than can be presented in any seminar, so please take the time to educate yourself and attend any discussion with as much information as possible.
Monorail for the Dogs...
Monorail Vs. Other
Where safety, design collide
http://www.lvmonorail.com/
http://i2i.org/article.aspx?ID=1106
METRORail Makes National Headlines
www.austinmonorail.org/light_rail_vs.htm
Why Milestone Study is flawed
www.austinmonorail.org/lrt%20accident%20causes.htm
www.austinmonorail.org/light_rail_vs.htm
A few key quotes:
"The story said part of the (accident)problem is that Houston's light-rail system is at street level, instead of above of below ground, and that most Houstonians are drivers." Ogden's proposed streetcars would be street-level rail vehicles. A proven hazard to street level activity.
"All of these accidents point out the key flaw in rail transit: It is simply not safe to put vehicles (streetcars)weighing hundreds of thousands of pounds in the same streets as pedestrians that weigh 100 to 200 pounds and vehicles that typically weigh a few thousand pounds. Heavy rail (subways and elevateds) avoid this flaw by being completely separated from autos and pedestrians, but are still vulnerable to suicides. Light rail, which often operates in the same streets as autos, and commuter trains, which often cross streets, simply are not safe." The proposed streetcars suffer the same design flaw. Not compatible with street level activity.
"The Las Vegas Monorail announced recently that it carried its 10 millionth passenger since opening the four-mile, driverless, state-of-the-art urban transportation system along the east side of the famous Las Vegas Strip in 2004." This system instantly added a more civilized experience to casino hopping in Las Vegas.
Don't forget to read this week's installment from Jim Kuntsler. While some may find his writing to be alarmist try to see through that and understand the fuel and transportation crisis we truly are facing. We in Ogden have a Golden Opportunity to tranform Ogden' core to a modern mini metropolis devoid of faulty, obsolete transportation schemes complete with a largely pedestrian lifestyle that includes easy public access to world class skiing, kayaking, climbing, golf, bicycling,
fishing, and more.
January 26, 2006 10:37 AM
The-OGD said...
In case you needed background on Jeff Boothe...Sounds like a typical Washington Lobbyist to me who survives by leading communities to federal money which
his firm of course gets it's cut for finder's fees.
Jeffrey Boothe, Treasurer
Partner, Holland & Knight LLP
Jeffrey Boothe, a partner in the Washington D.C. office of Holland & Knight LLP, is an experienced advocate on behalf of transit authorities and cities. Mr.
Boothe has worked extensively on matters relating to federal transportation policy and legislative and regulatory affairs, and is an active participant in several
organizations that work with Congress and federal agencies. He chairs the New Starts Working Group, a coalition of transit properties, cities and private sector
companies that actively support funding for mass transit, and helps develop federal transportation policy that responds to concerns about congestion, air quality, economic development and quality of life. He is also an active member of American Public Transportation Association Legislative Committee and Light Rail Task Force. He is Treasurer of the Reconnecting America Board of Directors. Mr. Boothe is a graduate of Stanford University and George Mason Law School, and served as a legislative assistant to Senator Mark O. Hatfield and as a professional staff member on the U.S. Senate Appropriations Committee
January 26, 2006 10:51 AM
The-OGD said...
It almost sounds as though the drones posting here are somehow more enamored of FEDERAL money than private entities making a contribution to their local community.
It's a sad day when communities must resort to having Washington telling them what's right for their community and taking it without critical thought.
View this article for evidence of Washington fudging with community transportation plans. I'll take private local funding anytime.
I noticed the link at the top of this topic from the words "private entities" goes to LiftOgden.com
The inference is that maybe these "private entities" have some hidden backing of some kind of Big Money where someone will profit terribly at the expense of our community.
This is hilarious, the only private entity here at Lift Ogden is myself and my son who moved here to invest in a community with foresight and to make a contribution to it's future. We get no money from the city or anyone for that matter. I have never met the mayor and only briefly discussed this issue with other proponents. Our goal is to Lift Ogden from the doldrums that have plagued this unique place and move it into the 21st century while preserving the grandness of it's history and integrating the city with it's geographical placement.
One need not have a degree or be a lobbyist/lawyer to research transportation issues and become self informed. That is what the links provided by myself and the website encourage others to do the research in an unbiased manner and arrive at your own conclusions. Instead of repeating insults referring to the mayor's stature and all the typical "Mike Savage, SavageNation(a phony name BTW)" techniques, we encourage citizens to take responsibility for educating themselves before lapping up prejudicial research from Washington outsiders
January 26, 2006 11:36 AM
curt said...
It looks like the Mayor and the Geigers are back from Las Vegas (referencing "The Ogd's" posts.) Only someone like the Geigers and the Mayor would presume to speak for all of Ogden as "The Ogd" or maybe it's Godfrey and he transposed the o and g.
The one good thing about the gondola is that it doesn't take up street space. I hate to see Ogden tear up it's streets to put a rail system in. Traffic is congested enough without having to share the road space with a streetcar. But I do intend to attend the informative meeting so that I can decide for myself what is best for Ogden. By the way, The Ogd, your links to all these sites you want us to go to, aren't links. You can click on them all day, but you'll be exactly where you were to begin with. Your talent obviously isn't computers, The Ogd, just shooting your mouth off and trying to be Mr. Big.
I quite like the idea that small retail centers spring up along the streetcar route where they stop to drop off and pick up passengers. Ogden could use a little development. The gondola would have no such impact on Ogden's economy since only three stops are planned.
Let's listen and get ALL the FACTS, not just someone's opinion.
January 26, 2006 11:41 AM
curt said...
Oops! Now the links are working. They weren't when I first read your posts.
Note to the-Ogd and Curt:
I had to re-post the-Ogd's several articles because the long un-anchored URLs were screwing up the display on my permalinks pages.
I fixed them so they're now clickable.
And a special note to the-ogd: You remarked that there must have been some dark implication in my linking to the Lift Ogden Blogsite in my msian article. In truth, I had no ill intention at all, but was merely providing a courtesy referral, so that our readers could check out your excellent new blog. Please don't get paranoid on us. I really have no dog in this hunt.
As a matter of fact, I appreciate the comments and links which you posted this morning. There are huge transit decisions coming before us, and any information that's helpful in educating our readership on the alternatives is something to be appreciated.
Seems to me like TRAX in Salt Lake puts the lie to almost everything this "The - Ogd" has written in his numerous and lengthy propoganda pieces!
While Trax has had a few accidents, it is considered by any measure as extremely safe, efficient and fast.
It has done wonders for Salt Lake City as well as many many other cities across America. Contrary to what "ogd" says, the thing is very profitable when compared to any other mass transit system. The technology has far surpassed what "Ogd" would have us believe. Light rail is not the antiquated, noisy, user unfriendly dinosaurs that this Gondola proponent claims.
Just because a gondola works for a ski resort, just because an elevated system works in Las Vegas, doesn't mean that it will serve Ogden's future mass transit needs. WE ARE NOT NOW, NOR WILL WE EVER BE A FRIGGEN SKI RESORT!!!!!!
While "Ogd" makes a lot of valid technical points about relative merits of Gondola and light rail, he - or she completely ignores the realities of Ogden and its needs. Even tho "Ogd" claims to have never met the mayor, the smoke screens and misdirection practiced seems to be out of the same Godfreyite hand book. (By the way, you can find this Goddfreyite handbook right next to Senator Butter's homosexual handbook - but not in LDS bookstores)
Sorry, Rudi, didn't mean to cause you any work. Blogger lost a couple of drafts while composing so I composed in word and pasted here. I do know computers as evidenced by our own sitework. We don't use Blogger.
As for the "private entities" reference I wasn't paranoid, just clarifying that this private entity (me) is indeed private and in no one's pocket. Clearly from my posts I intend to get all the info on rail and cableways.
As for Ozboy, who rants that we will never be a friggin' ski resort, this kind of poor self esteem is also evidenced by his need to denigrate in attempts to gain some kind of intellectual upper hand. Keep tryin'
I'm not so sure what he finds so unseemly about ski resorts but I can tell you that Ogden could use more than a little of what most quality ski resorts have and that is quality money and investment to link this city with it's primary recreational resource. Ogden has everything else going for it being it's proximity to the international airport, interstate routes, railroad, and the fact this city was built in an era of unsurpassed community pride and an enthusiasm for simple unique architecture.
We don't have to build any caricature cities here like Jackson Hole or Vail. We have a city, a spectacular one at that. A simple transportation link to a ski resort will transform Ogden from just another wasatch front city to one of the most unique destinations in the world.
Rudi, what was wrong with my posts that you deleted both of them? Your last comments don't make much sense to new readers.
Curt: I moved both your posts down-thread, when I corrected and reposted the-ogd's three earlier ones.
I wanted to preserve the chronological sequence; and I believe I got it right.
Check it out, and let me know if there's a problem, though. There was certainly nothing wrong with either of them.
If I missed one, let me know, and I'll search for it and put it back.
the-ogd: "We don't use Blogger."
Smart! You definitely get what you pay for. :)
I like the new Lift Ogden blogsite. You'll note I've already added your link to my blogroll.
No problem with the extra work. You posted some interesting links; and I wanted to make them accessible to everyone. It's something I routinely do whenever un-anchored links are posted to this site. It only took a couple of minutes.
I thought I should clarify my own identity to put an end to speculation that the mayor or some high roller is posting here. I am a new owner of a modest home in Ogden and soon opening my own small business. I'll leave my name out as I prefer to keep this a forum of ideas and discussion. The-Ogd is a cute domain name I registered for another blog and email domain. I may use it for my business. Who I am is immaterial to the contribution I make to this discussion.
There are many others such as myself moving here for the currently affordable real estate and for great things in Ogden such as the proposed gondola and the rebuilding of downtown. Having lived at several resort towns over the last decade Ogden offers the opportunity for anyone who hasn't mudged up their credit rating to own a home. This is not possible in most western cities now that they have experienced the current real estate bubble. These newcomer's will be looking for properties to restore and will infuse new life into our community opening small businesses and living a healthy pedestrian lifestyle. Ogden's core is of medium size and has a density that they simply do not replicate anymore in new developments. This is very desirable to those who enjoy riding a bike or skateboarding along relatively quiet streets. Our grid layout assures an even distribution of traffic leaving many street and sidewalk routes for pedestrians. Most newer urban plans leave most routes deadend as they funnel traffic to throughways that now are choked and impassable and the only relief is the next freeway. This trend is now unsustainable. It is time to look at public transportation as an extension of a lifestyle that can be more pedestrian.
Living our lives through the windshied of a car is isolating and pits citizen against citizen as we jockey for better position and reduce the next guy to someone who is simply in my way.
A gondola system moves along silently, is ALWAYS on time rain or shine, Moves more people BOTH directions than a fleet of busses, is immune to infinite opportunities for human error and disastrous results, never consumes any liquid fuel directly...
The gondola system is NOT the only system needed to serve our city. It would be the backbone for smaller feeder conveyances such as golfcart size electric vehicles and bicycle taxis. It would be possible to live in Ogden and NOT OWN A CAR if we had the courage to explore a transportation infrastructure that would allow freedom of movement to all corners of our city. This would prove to an asset that any city would envy. A pedestrian city is a happy city. A city that requires everyone to own a vehicle is .. ah well... Los Angeles and all the facsimile cities we have built on it's model. It's time for creative thinking.
I try not to use this word too much, but I just checked out Lift Ogden's website, and the word that comes to my mind is "propaganda." The site goes on and on about how unsafe streetcars are. It seems like a scare tactic to me. I'd be willing to bet that altogether, auto accidents are responsible for many more injuries and fatalities than any sort of mass transit. But we don't poo-poo building new roads because auto accidents happen. Lift Ogden seems to be missing the point that a public transportation system that only gets people from point A to point B, and point B to point C, and nowhere in between, is a lot less efficient than a system that can take people anywhere along a route. And a gondola system can't be completely free of problems. I'd hate to be stuck in one if for some reason it stopped working. At least with a streetcar you'd be on the ground and could get out without falling 20 feet.
The-ogd:
Any form of transportation will take energy. A gondola system would take electricity, that would likely come from one of our coal-burning plants that pollute the air just as vehicle exhaust does.
So Mr Ogd, you come to town recently and buy into the Godfreyite fantasies. You are either young and just starting, or are an old bust out rustlin around Ogden looking for a cheap deal. In either event, welcome. If you didn't grow up in Ogden then you really don't have a clue about what most of this dialogue is about.
I was amused at your attempt to slam ozboy, a loyal son and true defender of our city. Seems like ozboy has the opinion that Ogden, an old industrial town of 70,000 with a high percent of poor, lower and working class and immigrants, is an unlikely candidate to be turned into a chi chi ski resort like Park City, Vale, etc. For that you say he has "poor self esteem"? I sure do not see the connection there. If you knew the ozboy that I do, you would certainly realize what a dumb statement that is! When he calls it like it is, you accuse him of "denigrating" people. The only people I have seen him denigrate are the ones who deserve it. Then it isn't denigration, but the truth.
Keep it up ozboy, don't listen to this turkey.
Thanks for the introduction, The-Ogd; and welcome to this board.
Although there's no need at all to provide real-life information here, I'm sure all our gentle readers appreciate your telling us a little bit about yourself.
You need not apoligize for remaining anonymous. I've rattled the question around and around during the 8-month life of this blog; and I truly believe anonymous posting provides the most frank and honest discussions here in the cyber-world.
I hope you'll keep posting here, and that you'll come back often.
The whole purpose of this place is to promote discussion of important local issues. To that end, it's nice to have intelligent folks like you posting here.
We've gathered a collection of very intelligent people who post regularly here on this blog.
I hope you'll continue to offer your insights here.
Welcome to Ogden -- and to Weber County Forum.
To The-Ogd and to Frank:
First, to The Ogd: You wrote A gondola system moves along silently, is ALWAYS on time rain or shine, Moves more people BOTH directions than a fleet of busses, is immune to infinite opportunities for human error and disastrous results, never consumes any liquid fuel directly...
Several points: anyone who has stood beneath gondola systems at ski resorts can attest that they are not silent.
Gondola systems run rain or shine, but not always wind or calm. One of the problems with the gondola system proposed up the mountain to the as-yet unbuilt Peterson Malan's Basin resort [without which the Ogden link of the Gondola system makes no sense at all] is the high winds it would encouter, and the need to shut it down in high winds.
As for moving more people per hour than trolley or BRT systems: that would be useful if and only if enough people want to ride from one end of the Ogden gondola system [downtown] to the other [WSU]to keep the system carrying near capacity loads throughout the operating day, which is doubtful. Trolley and BRT schedules can be adujested to reflect peak load and low load hours of operation. Gondolas can't. And such a system will do nothing for those who want to get on or get off anywhere else along the route. Urban trolley systems have proven themselves very successful in generating substantial investment in both business and residential properties along their routes.
Finally, electric-driven trolley's do not directly consume liquid fuels either so there seems on that point to be no particular advantage to a gondola.
Now: to Frank. You wrote: If you didn't grow up in Ogden then you really don't have a clue about what most of this dialogue is about.
Nonsense. Someone who arrived here last week to live and work, or to retire here, has as much of a stake in all this as someone who was born and raised here and lived here all his or her life. The idea, which occasionally comes up in discussion, that someone who has lived here since childhood has a greater stake in the outcome of all this, or greater knowledge about the issue under discussion, or greater moral authority to pronounce upon it, is... well, nonsense.
Curmudgeon.
I generally agree with your intelligent take on subjects here on this blog.
However, I think your full of shit on this last comment to Frank.
He never said that long term residents have a "greater stake" in events. What I think he said was that if you haven't been in Ogden for a while you do not have the background knowledge to put a lot of this stuff in perspective and therefore may not be as knowledgeable as a long time resident.
Some one who has only recently moved into this area, and is now freely accusing opponents of this stupid, and re-occuring, gondola scheme - persons of "low self esteem", seems to me to be asserting the "greater moral authority" that you decry.
"The Ogd" appears to me to be a new comer, maybe maybe not with a few brains, that doesn't have a clue about what he expounds on. He has apparently been infected with this idiotic "Ogden as a Ski Resort" idea.
The only thing Ogden needs to be saved from is a bunch of arrogant, elitist and socialist schemers that think Ogden needs to be saved. The town will do just fine without all of this ski resort/gondola nonsense.
I've written in past posts that the gondola would not be the only piece of a public transportation network. It is exactly for the reason that Chris Peterson has proposed a resort that the Gondola fits in with the plan. If a Gondola were built from downtown to the foothill with at least one stop in between, that key East-West route is now backboned.North-South Feeds from Small busses, taxis, and citizens on bicycles and walking could then ride East West on that route.
The thing that gets missed by all the emotional upset some have over this project is the big picture and your own relationship to it. If you simply do not ever see yourself giving up the ultimate convenience of hopping into your car every day for whatever, you are not a candidate for pulic transport ridership. You will have to go out your door walk or ride a bike down the street to a station to get to a link. No Public trans is coming to your garage anytime soon. You have to get up off your ass and decide that there is some thing better than driving everywhere for anything.
With foresight, at roughly the same cost as a streetcar system we could have 8 individual 1 mile links running along key routes in the city. Of course the Feds aren't backing anything like this.
Just as commercial development arises along streetcar routes development has also been shown to cluster at gondola terminus'
Ozboys self esteem issues are largely his dim view of his own city.
Quite obviously those opponents do not ski or ride a snowboard. If you are too old then why determine the future for those who do and love living here for it's proximity to a fantastic mountain resort. If you are under 60 and do not ski or ride and are are in good shape may I invite you for a lesson. Prepare to get you ass kicked by the mountain.
If you are even younger and whatever shape you are in you should be ashamed for spending too much time pulling wrappers off twinkies and get you rself up to the mountain and see what all the fun is about. I doubt you are handicapped as there are plenty of those folks up there.
This "Ogden as a Ski Town" idea is rooted in the fact that SKI TOWNS are traditionally LOCATED ADJACENT to SKI MOUNTAINS.
Ogden is located adjacent to a ski mountain. In fact it's a laughable that a city the size of Ogden has NOT realized this potential when looking at what the ski economy has done for SLC and PC. One key difference here is that this town was not built as a caricature town. It's ALREADY BUILT. All that is missing is the key thing...A LIFT.
As for whether Ogden needs help...you need to get out alittle round this town. There is more empty homes , foreclosed realestate, blank storefronts in tis town than anywhere in the west I have been. If you are satified with this then I'll gladly move you to south central L.A. and you can be happy while some of this rebuild this town.
A town with no redevelopment is a town that is dying.
Those who don't ski may not understand the key relationship between a lift and skiing. Without it you must walk up the mountain. Therefore you do alot more walking than skiing.
Ski lifts are silent. It's at the terminus that there is some noise. and alittle as the cars run over the guide wheels at the towers. Apparently you may not have seen the most modern of these installations but they are quiet and again, the cars glide along in silence.
As for wind, Obviously the poster has never been up to the basin and ridden in the gondola in a storm. They are surprisingly resistant. There is almost never the kind of wind force in Ogden that there is up on De Moisy ridge. The gondola would probably never be shut down for wind here in the city.
You non- skiers should just come out and be honest, you hate those who love to ski and snowboard because you are so jealous of those who challenge themselves and are in good enough shape for it.
I understand. My Mommy and Daddy never took me skiing either. I hated the Country Club&Ski set while growing up. Then snowboarding came along and I picked it up with my kids as the best way to recreate strongly with my family. I was seriously missing out the first 2/3 of my life.
The overwhelming majority of the tax paying citizens of Ogden DO NOT Ski or Snowboard. At best maybe 5% of the people participate in these activities.
Yet we are being held up to ridicule, and just generally being held up, by this self centered little group of elitist ski resort enthusiasts!
If they want the damn gondola and ski stuff, then they ought to just shut up already and build it - with their own money. Problem is that most of them don't have two nickles to rub together and so they constantly are angling to have the tax payers pick up the bill for their selfish thrills. The very few well off bastards that keep stiring this pot are just simply too cheap to pay for their own toys and want you and I to foot the bill under the guise that somehow this is good for the 95% of us that would never use any of it.
Like all the Godfrey crowd they are self centered leeches that think they know what is best for the rest of us.
Well there's at least one person (doug charles)honest enough to show it's issues with skiing as a sport and not community development that get's them so worked up.
If you were involved in Utah's key sport and economic engine you would know what ski area access has done for cities blessed with great proximity around the world.
We are talking about redevelopment and generating investment in Ogden. What is it that keeps you from seeing that that is exactly what has happened in communities that have enhanced their ski area access.
Look on a TOPO map. Notice that Mt Ogden is less than three miles from the high bench.
The investment in a gondola system whether it's 50 million or 100 million will yield more than a billion dollars in increased property value. Here's my very rough figures just for conversation's sake(10,000 homes increase in value by 100,000)In case you have been in some kind of coma the last few years real estate values increased in almost any city you can name in the west by that much and more and those cities do not have ski area access. Those that do.... Telluride, Vail, Mammoth, Park City, South Tahoe, have seen values far in excess of those ridiculously conservative estimates.
But I am not here to increase property value. I'm no real estate flipper. I'm invested in my community. Property value is an indicator of desirability of a given community. Ogden.... it's way low. But I have faith. It's too bad there are some in our pitifully shiftless society who would look on something as healthy as snowsports with such acidity. 5% snow enthusiasts around here?? I wouldn't be so proud. Maybe some of these poor city kids who would never get the opportunity to ride would benefit of it were this accessible. This close to a MAJOR resort in a State that proclaims ski Utah!! and you have the audacity to claim righteousness with such aplomb. You are indeed living in a bubble and are a sorehead to boot. Get out and enjoy the snow. It's no wonder Ogden is the retarded sister to the north. It's missed out on so much of what is booming everywhere else in Northern Utah and a few oldster's insist they have the plan.
I'll add that those opponents who have suceeded in blinding Ogden to the possibilities of it's natural mountain location,
Maybe you could convince the population of Park City that they really don't need the mountain resort to sustain their community development
or better yet ...since you seem so disconnected from the resources around a given area...
you could maybe convince the citizens of Juneau, Alaska that those pesky fishing boats and the messy docks they need are of no use to their economy
or Detroit that they are better off without the auto industry
or Seattle can do without ferries and microsoft.
Dear The Odg:
If you are under the impression that opposition to the Mayor's Gondola/Gondola scheme consists only or even largely of non-skiiers, then I may owe Frank an apology. You may in fact be as ignorant on this issue as he thinks you are. You need to get out more.
You are similarly confused if you think opposition is limited only to those who don't use public transportation and who drive everywhere.
I ride the buses to work every day. And home. And down town to buy Sundance tickets, or make a library run, or to meet my wife for lunch. And to the supermarket. And to the bank. And to Grounds for Coffee after work. And that's one reason [but only one] I dislike the Mayor's Gondola/Gondola scheme: it would reduce bus service on exactly the routes I most use because the Ogden part of the Gondola scheme would go along that route, and the gondola will be of zero use to me since I can't access it anywhere along the route. Only at the terminals [downtown and WSU]. The idea of this as a public transportation system for living and working in Ogden [not just for resort bound traffic] is ludacrous.
You are aware, I trust, that Wasatch Region Council did a study on Ogden's transit needs, and its report did not list the gondola scheme as a viable option.
Finally, you insist Ogden lies at the foot of a "ski mountain." True enough, in a way. But the world class resort and olympic ski venue is on the other side of that mountain at Snow Basin, to which the Mayor's gondola/gondola scheme will not go. Whether the west slope of Mt. Ogden is a viable commercial "ski mountian" is a matter of some dispute. One report I've seen suggests that if snow amounts and weather conditions will permit sustained downhill skiing at the Malan's Basin proposed resort at all, it will be on a small number of expert-only runs on the north-facing wall above the basin. So far, Mr. Peterson [who is now about three months late with the promised public unveiling of his plans for the Basin resort] has offered no feasibility study indicating that his property can sustain a ski resort. So far, the Gondola/Gondola advocates have been long on blather and pie in the ski predictions and short on fact.
Sorry to say this, but your trying to dismiss opposition to the Gondola/Gondola scheme as coming from non-skiers and those who never use public transportation anyway smacks of the usual Lift Ogden line assertion-without-evidence line. You need not only to get out more, but to mix with a better class of people.
Dear Bonnie Lee:
We can disagree I suppose about what Frank meant. There can be no disagreement about what he said. I quoted it, verbatim, in my post. And what he said was nonsense.
Yikes....'under 60' to ski???? We have a friend who is 83 and can probably ski your boots off!
Your insulting tone doesn't sound 'new in town' to me....sounds like the Geiger's...especially The Younger.
Want a gondola up the mountain? Let Peterson build it...he has more nickels than the over-burdened taxpayers. We had high winds of 113 mph hit WSU a few years ago and destroy many trees. Anyone recall that?
All you Lift Ogden people should be in a gondola with those high winds...up. up. and away...yay!!
Curmudgeon
You did indeed quote Frank correctly. However, you then proceeded to misrepresent what that quote was and then said that what he said was nonsense!
I will copy the two paragraphs from your post inorder to point this out. I stand by my position that you misinterpreted what he said and then put him down for saying what you thought he said, which he didn't.
He was talking about knowledge about local events aquired by long tenure in town, not the stake someone had in town based on their longevity.
"Now: to Frank. You wrote: If you didn't grow up in Ogden then you really don't have a clue about what most of this dialogue is about.
Nonsense. Someone who arrived here last week to live and work, or to retire here, has as much of a stake in all this as someone who was born and raised here and lived here all his or her life. The idea, which occasionally comes up in discussion, that someone who has lived here since childhood has a greater stake in the outcome of all this, or greater knowledge about the issue under discussion, or greater moral authority to pronounce upon it, is... well, nonsense.
Thank you Bernie for providing a recap of advantagages of the gondola system as a PART of the over all transit plan. So many times in these conversations this issue gets dissected by an individual point of view that blurs the overall picture. The gondola could e built initially to provide a key East-West permanent link between the high bench and downtown. Stops at Washington, Monroe and Harrison, while expensive would be key to it's civic utility. Feeder busses running North and South (Streetcars for those who like the idea of accepting federal money and 15 years of Street lavel construction cost overruns and traffic disruption forever) can service the length of the city. The gondola in this configuration serves two purposes. It provides a key East West Transit Backbone and also links the city with the mountain resort proposed by Chris Peterson. There is alot of fuss whether his resort is a wise investment from a ski resort perspective. It sounds like from his statements he is looking to create a pedestrian residential environment for 4 season living. I have not seen where the emphasis has been on skiing. The Gondola access and a little skiing round out the Mountain experience. There is nothing wrong with creating a residential mountain village for those that enjoy mountain living. The gondola acces would keep it's impact to a minimum. Americans are extremely uptight about mountain development because most mountain development results in second homes and golf courses. In the Alps high mountain communities produce specialty high altitude crops for medicine and food. These communities are accessed sometimes exclusively by tramways. These key transportation infrastructures is what makes those economies strong. The Swiss and Austrians simply could not function without cableway systems. Cableway and Gondola systems around the world have proven to pay for themselves usually ahead of projections.
It seems I could post til I am blue in the fingertips and someone will dredge up another tidbit of minutae that cements their opposition to the gondola and that is that . They desire not to examine the broader and longterm possibilities. Along as they can satisfy themselves that their predetermined agenda has been served no amount of logic will sway that view.
As for strip development along Streetcar routes. Well, that just forces more stops along that route. A city would be better served to develop Islands or Centers of dense commercial development connected by gondolas and allow nice quiet parks neighborhoods to flourish in between. Ogden has just such an opportunity to develop something likle this for it's future. My future extends out 50 years or more. I hope to see whatever is developed here in Ogden for public trans to be revolutionary and ease our city into the post automobile era.
We have the opportunity to set Ogden as a model of the modern American city which can preserve it's history while building key modern infrastructures for it's future.
There was a very funny line out of Doonesbury today. Although it was about the "Bushies" I will paraphrase it herein as it is absoulutely fitting of our local Gondola boosters and Godfreyite's.
"The Godfreyite's don't think about things, they just believe things, so they will never be conflicted by reality"
And yes Curmudgeon and Bernie, Bonnie got it right as to what I meant about new comers to Ogden. I am mystified by how such a simple sentence could be construed in any other way. Nowhere did I write or imply that new comers to Ogden have any less stake in events concerning all citizens. Furthermore, I do not believe that either.
Also, it occurs to me that "Bernie" is most likely a lawyer the way he compared Bonnie's words about my words to some long discourse on Bush going into Irag? I think this is called something like "missdirection" or "confuse the issue" or "divert attention from a truth that doesn't serve your purpose"
It is also amusing how Bernie apparently dislikes Bush yet is so slavish in his praise for the equally obnoxious neo-con Godfrey. They both use the same "big lie" techniques, they are equally corrupt and arrogant, they are both out of tune and contemptuous of the people that they govern.
In any event, this Bernie and Ogd are sure a couple of long winded smoke screen artists. I wish I could buy them for what they are worth and sell them for what they apparently think they are worth!
Of all the mountain of nonsense that Ogd has spewed out the last few days to justify this goof ball gondola scheme, the one I think most precious is - "10,000 homes increase in value by 100,000"
That comes out to a Billion dollars in appreciation that will come to Ogden's home owners if they just build this gondola! If that were actually true, instead of being so incredibly stupid, then the rich son in law, the rich father in law, Bernie, his brothers and family, and all the rest of these con artists would be furiously buying up every property in the whole city. They would then build the gondola themselves and then sit back and rake in that billion. There would be at least $400 million in pure profit, unless they succeed in scamming the tax payers into building the gondola, then it would be more like $500 million!!!!
Yep, these gondola guys and gals are certainly never going to be conflicted by reality...
Yo Frank,
When offering the property appreciation estimate it was only speaking to the bottomline fools who seem to miss every other benefit suggested. I thought surely profit would motivate guys like you or curmudgeon. It doesn't motivate me. I'm invested in Ogden to the hilt because I love it here, not so I can sell out and move somewhere else. You have offered no suggestion of your own investment in Ogden. The valuation statement was in the vein of increased taxbase anyway not profit motive.
Those of us who are invested in this great city have a stake in it's future.Your weak paranoic suggestions that there is some evil conspiracy to bankrupt a city we love is baseless and so hilarious. What utter nonsense and it is your side that continually stoops to denigrate the mayor every chance they get . It's so tiresome and sure doesn't substitute for substance which most of the opponents arguments severely lack. Mostly it's namecalling.
100,000 appreciation is small. You have been living in a bottle for the last few years. Communities like Bend Oregon, Reno NV, Coeur d alene ID and other similar sized western RECREATIONAL communities have experienced much greater appreciation. Mostly because with vision a DESIRABLE community can be redeveloped and increase in value. Sure it's an unfortunate measure of a communities viability but our capitalist valuation machine is brutally honest and Ogden rates very low. Fortunately with some vision it is on the climb. Quality of life is what brings people here. I spoke up in this forum to give myself as an example of someone who moved here because of forward thinking. It's evidence to those of you who do not get out enough to meet the newcomers that indeed this proposal is attracting outside attention and potential investment. I am but one example. I could give several more. So that is PROOF. I talk to people both in and outside of Ogden and the support is virtually unanimous.
I have offered numerous examples of profit making gondola systems worldwide, some in countries far less affluent than the U.S. No one has offered up an example of a Gondola system that hasn't lived up to it's goals both aesthetically and financially.
The Ogd wrote: There is alot of fuss whether his resort is a wise investment from a ski resort perspective. It sounds like from his statements he is looking to create a pedestrian residential environment for 4 season living. I have not seen where the emphasis has been on skiing. The Gondola access and a little skiing round out the Mountain experience. There is nothing wrong with creating a residential mountain village for those that enjoy mountain living.
My my my. The Lift Ogden line is changing yet again. From the inception of the group, while the pipe dream of the proposed gondola/gondola scheme going to Snow Basin was still alive, the endless chant from those folks has been "the gondola will connect Ogden to world class skiing." If you have not seen much emphasis on that, you need to get out more. Even when the Snow Basin dream collapsed, thanks to Snow Basin's not being interested, the ski emphasis continued, based on Mr. Petereson's plans to build, we were told again and again, as "world class ski resort" on this side of the mountain.
I am a little at a loss to speak about what Mr. Peterson may be planning now and how the Lift Ogden line may change in light of it, since his promised deadline to lay his plans before the people of Ogden passed about three months ago. I presume you have seen the lastest version of the plans, though. That the resort will not be primarily a ski attraction will come as news to many who have attended the Lift Ogden meetings and heard the gondola justified, endlessly, as a way to connect downtown Ogden to "world class skiing."
I wonder if this "skiing is only a minor part" mountain village idea is what Bob Geiger had in mind when he told the STandard Examiner that Lift Ogden was keeping its exact plans secret because making them public would increase public opposition.
I imagine, Mr. Ogd, that many people will be surprised to learn that connection to skiing is now not the major goal of the gondola/gondola scheme.
Finally, Lift Ogden has been telling us for a long time now that what will make the Ogden end of the gondola/gondola scheme feasible is the hoards of tourists who will ride the gondola to world class skiing and then back to their hotels and restaurants in town. That Mr. Peterson's planned "world class all season" resort will generate hundreds of thousands of riders for the Ogden end of the gondola, year round. If the plan now is a residential mountain community with "a little" skiing thrown in, one has to wonder where all those hundreds of thousands of riders and hotel-room renters and restaurant customers are going to come from.
So many questions.
So few answers.
Curmudgeon,
Your response is an example of taking the smallest item out of context and creating your own line of logic with it. Your attempts to find some ulterior motive in MY interpretation of Chris Peterson's plans has me splitting in laughter. You sound like a Trekkie arguing some minute detail of some obscure star trek incident. So what if it's "4 season" , "World Class Ski Destination" or whatever. You make it sound like there is a hell of a lot of difference.
I was responding to another poster's report that there was little usable terrain for skiing. I attempted to show that perhaps the intention of a resort was focused more 4 season than exclusively skiing. As for limited terrain, maybe for the timid. The west side of Mt ogden is extreme skiing at it's finest. It is exactly this kind of terrain that makes resorts famous. See Snowbird, Jackson Hole, Crested Butte. These resorts have large percentage of their terrain as Black Diamond. It is what they survive on. People do not go to Snowbird for the blue and green runs. Elevate your skiing skills and you'll see what I'm talking about.
Your fantasies sure run wild. Especially in your concept of who we are at Lift Ogden. I have seen no plans, have never met the mayor or Chris Peterson, and am working strictly from a citizen's perspective. In fact that's what gives my own research and post's their legitamacy. I, nor does LiftOgden.com represent any of the big players you seem to think we are. We are rallying the citizenry to support their plans and give them feed back as to what we, as citizens, want from this project. We are the essence of grassroots political action.
As for Snowbasin's disinterest: The following is my own take, I have no inside line...
Their position is largely political and the fact that Mr. Holding does not have the stomach for anymore political nonsense and lawsuits. He is a gentle and thoughtful individual from all I have read. The insults and innuendos hurled at him from Ogdenites and Sierra Clubbers is enough to keep anyone from having anything to do with this community ever again. He built a 100 million dollar resort at our doorstep. His devotion to quality as evidenced by Snowbasin's architecture and his other properties reveals a man of sensible priorities. He doesn't get this kind of grief from the communities that benefit from his other interests.
From an Engineering standpoint may I suggest that a Gondola system from Ogden to Snowbasin will be best achieved by creating a mid-station(Malan's Basin) Otherwise only an Aerial Tram would cover the span and they are limited in capacity especially over that distance. The link to Snowbasin would happen if Malan's was built. Many neighboring resorts in the U.S. share lift access(Alta/Snowbird). A base in Malan's is key from an Avalache and snow patrol safety standpoint.
I have explored in this conversation and on the liftogden website many cableway systems for sake of comparison and educating those who are interested in options for Ogden's future. This doesn't represent some "change of the LiftOgden" line. My goal is clear ... to link Ogden to it's prime recreational resource to be enjoyed by all in Ogden instead of the few. Our downtown will then become the destination it once was when it was the railroad hub for the west.
It is laughable that the Liftogden folks have suddenly become very vocal and opinionated in the last couple of days. Could it have been that the event about the streetcars put on by the SmartGrowth group (showing how feasible an alternate means of MASS transportation) made Liftogden get their panties in a bunch and start rallying the troops (Bernie and the new guy The Ogd) to get their voices and propaganda rolling again. It is very apparent that they have lost their steam and drive over the last 6 months and their panic is showing. The dream of duping the city to pay for their opulent ski toy to allow them extreme laziness is dying. You claim the gondola is the saving grace and the missing piece of the puzzle to turn Ogden into Park City. You claim the majority of Ogden wants the gondola and that anyone under 30 is 100% behind it because they believe those who don’t want it are relics of the past and need the younger generation to “Save Ogden”. Give it a rest already. The people I run with, and yes I’m part of the younger under 30 crowd you so adamantly blow your horn representing, have NO interest in your gondola. Focus on mass transit around the core of the city first, that is where it is needed, not floating you and the “millions” of people over the top of it so you don’t need to trouble yourself getting involved with them inner city folks.
I apologize for being a “troll” but since I’ve noticed some new voices on this blog claiming to represent my views for the good of Ogden, I figured I would join in the fun.
Fernaid:
A correction. I don't think SmartGrowthOgden arranged program on street cars that was held at WSU at noon yesterday and again at the WSU alumni center last night. SGO people helped publicize it when they learned of it, but I don't think SGO sponsored the speaker's trip to Ogden.
Fernaid,
If you notice on the LiftOgden website we mentioned this streetcar info session and found it to be somewhat agreeable. Nothing Jeffery Boothe said got my shorts in a wad. This is evidence of our ability to listen to facts presented by any faction so that intelligent decisions for the future can be assesed and committed. While I have poked some fun at streetcars and their supporters they do have some merit for some areas of Ogden. They will not, however, be servicing a WSU-Downtown Intermodal Hub anytime soon. There is one very huge catch to gettting streetcars in Ogden if you attended the session. TOD means Transit Oriented Development. It is a very good thing and it is exactly this prerequisite that gets the Feds attention. I don't think Ogden has gotten very deep into the TOD line of thinking and was likely why the mayor turned the city away from the streetcar studies.
TOD can be applied to both Streetcar systems and gondola systems. Both require community will. The difference in the type of TOD that serves a streetcar and that which would serve a gondola system is that the TOD accompanying the streetcar line is linear and would require a rezoning and reprioritizing corridors to benefit the streetcar. This is generally a good thing. People in the 30th street corridor or whatever E-W corridor was chosen may think differently though.
TOD serving a gondola system would be centralized because of the point to point nature of gondola service TOD centers could be zoned for high density to encourage growth around the stations preserving neighborhoods in between. That is why for the E-W connection in Ogden a gondola could be a natural saving those E-W corridors from massive high density redevelopment. A plan such as this has the added benefit of connecting to a new resort.
Downtown Ogden is perfect for TOD redevelopment and a streetcar line should be sought for downtown and even another loop perhaps Wash./12th/Harrison/30th.
This would be a nice start to a Transit Infrastructure. Is Ogden willing to explore rezoning to a much greater density a few corridors to guarantee a streetcar the success it deserves? Without TOD districts the dreams of streetcar supporters are on thinner ice than the gondola.
Streetcars and busses to SERVE the general public, built on grants.
Gondolas to serve the special interest groups and augment the OTHER system, built COMPLETELY on private donations.
That might work.
This whole debate is a bunch of crap!
We do not need either system, and will not for many years into the future.
The least expensive, most practical, and only sane approach is to buy another bus when the mostly empty ones we have now get full. When the new bus gets full, buy another one.
After 50 or so busses, and when the demand actually approaches, then build a light rail - like most intelligent city governments do.
You're right, of course, Frank.
All the competing factions are vying for the expected government pork.
By the time they get around to applying for their federal federal grants, the US governement will be completely bankrupt.
I vote for buses. Screw the promoters and their finder's fees.
You're right on the money, Frank. What the warring factions are doing is indulging in the logical fallacy of the false dillemma.
Yes. There are other, more reasonable choices to be examined. There are MANY other public transit possibilities that go beyond the weird debate of Streetcars v. Gondolas.
Dear JP:
Fair enough. Then let the advocates of these "other more reasonable choices" present them. One group of ski-promoteres/hotel room salesmen/downtown merchants suggested a gondola/gondola system, at first as a tourist promotion plan, then [in hopes of public funding] as an Ogden transit plan, and finally again [for the moment at least] as a tourist promotion plan.
Other groups support the findings of the Wasatch Regional Council's conclusion that either a bus rapid transit system, or a trolley system [or a combination of the two] would best serve Ogden's transit needs in the downtown/wsu corridor.
If you or others have other suggestions, by all means bring them forward, [with I trust some documented support of their wisdom].
I'd only add this: the idea is to anticipate the transit needs of Ogden that are coming down the line when the commuter rail line begins to operate. This requires planning ahead, not waiting until the transit problem becomes a mess to start to think about it. And whatever solution to Ogden's [coming] transit problems is adopted, it needs to have a strong development aspect to it as well. From my own POV, the system that best fits both roles [transit for residents and business development spur] is the one the Wasatch Regional Council recommended: a trolley system between downtown and WSU.
But if you think there are more attractive competing alternatives to both the trolley plan and the Mayor's gondola/gondola scheme, by all means, bring them forward and expand the discussion.
I sold my house and then "moved" by bus once....a complete disaster.
Can you imagine "moving" by gondola?
Still waiting to see a bus filled to capacity. When that happens, I agree, "buy another friggin bus!"
Curmundgeon-
I won't worry too much about transit issues becoming too out of hand for Ogden when the Rail System poors into station here. The goal make more things happen for Ogden, but to simply transport all of us Ogden folk down to Salt Lake City to spend our money and make our money. Growth for Ogden is not in the agenda here unless we offer something to entice people to come north rather than just go south. To support the State's plans for the Light Rail in S.L.C. and the rail system to Ogden, all we really need to do is build a nice parking lot near the loading point so that we can get on it and go to S.L.C.
I'm wondering if a nice bus ride around town, up to Snowbasin or to one of our premiere restaurants or hotels is the best way to entice train riders to come North?
Or....could it be...something else....?
People will surely get on the train in SLC, not get off at the Farmington station which will be right next to Lagoon, and ride all the way into Ogden to go to Pee Wee's playhouse with its two rides and an arcade.
I mean it is just simple priestly logic and any one who doesn't get it obviously has low self esteem.
Bernie
Like all self important Godfreyites you are not really listening to what the opposition is saying. In your arrogant and lawyerly way you are mischaracterizing what our position is, and then attacking us with said false drivel. Typical disingenuous crap from you and your circle of manipulators.
We are not participating in an "orgy of disgust over our perception of our town". We are speaking out about our disgust for the self serving thieves that are looting the public treasury to build monuments to themselves. Monuments by the way that will also result in various members of the Allen family, and other insiders, making a pile of money.
In my book you are a morally bankrupt shyster that looks like a Las Vegas pimp.
Bonnie Lee-
Well said. I heard about the presentation that was given by the city at the ski snow convention in Vegas. The wonderful owner of Roosters restaurant glorifies Ogden because she says she can answer calls on her cell while skiing at Snowbasin all the while pretending that she is at work. I'm so sick and tired of these self-serving business owners who frolic while their employees slave away and the city builds them rec centers and contemplates gondolas at our expense. Bernie...when are you going to recognize all of this for what it is...exploitation of the people by the mayor and the monied property owners.
I don't understand why they're not lobbying the Universtity to house thousands of Katrina victims in the empty Dee Event Center. I don't understand why we continue to scar the mountain with a big white W. When are we going to realize that the best way to move forward is to be different than the filthy capitalist efforts of USU & S.L.C. and BYU and Provo.
I want buses and the only way to make that happen is to begin heavily taxing parking at WSU. We can turn the parking lots into outdoor meeting centers for discussion and learning. Have you seen how many polluting automobiles poor into campus every day!
We can take in the poor, we can embrace one another, and we can finally rid ourselves of the filthy business people who keep trying to destroy our mountain and our environment.
Bernie...Listen to Bonnie...help everyone rather than exploiting them. We could do with a few more like Bonnie and Ozboy and few less arrogant lawyers.
The City, The Mayor, the shameful Lift Ogden Crew...They're liars. They lie at every turn. That stupid Geiger dude showed us their hand long ago...withold the truth. Professor Vause and Professor Shroeder are super heroes. Integrity and brains Vs. Deceipt and Stupidity.
I'd suggest you read the terms of service here, Bernie, before you try posting here again.
Your last missive, containing personal information, has been thus deleted.
I operate the blog here; and I generally don't act as a "moderator," although I do make exceptions.
Your last message was one of those. If somebody here disagrees with you on an issue, I refuse to become your target. I just host this site; that's all.
And don't blame the whole board if someone disagrees with you.
Capice?
And if you're serious about ducking out like a coward, don't let the screen door hit you on the backside as you skulk away.
Rudizink,
You are a Gentlemen and a Patriot! Way to go with Old Bernie! Who needs these Mayor loving, Gondola Loving, Big Business Loving, near-criminals here!
If you are going to bring thought to this Blog, keep it real, not pie in the sky.
Anonymous
With out the Godfeyites and their pie in the sky fantasies we would only have the Utah State legislature to make fun of. Hell, everyone is doing that!
I for one hope that Bernie doesn't take his ball and go home in a huff. As diluted as he is, he is some what bright and makes it a pretty fun and fair fight. Most of the other Godfreyite apologists that have come forth are pretty simplistic, uninformed and plain stupid for the most part.
Bob G. was an exception. Bright, passionate and well meaning, but on the wrong side of history - in my humble opinion. Were did he go?
Ozboy,
I can't believe that you give Bob G and Bernie such credit. They have no purpose but destroy this city at the expense of Ogden's tax payers. Further, they support the Mayor! They do nothing for the common good save it fills their own pockets with my tax dollars. Can't stand'm! They know exactly what they are doing, and it is dispicable. Don't let off of the gas on these guys.
I hope Bernie took his ball and went home. We don't need such frivilous and despicable thought threatening the future of this town. It frightens me that anyone buys into their sick little schemes and insane "visions" of Ogden.
What we need is Bill Glassman and the gang keeping things real and legitimate rather than criminal and deceiptful as the Mayor, Geiger and Bernie want it.
The Gondola has absolutely zero merit, and the fact that they, and our filthly little Mayor promote it, is morally repugnant to me. Buses, and possibly a street car in the far off future, are realistic and non-threatening to our beautiful mountains and our unique way of life. They certainly aren't so "elitist"! And for that matter, neither is our University. To think that enrollment should be so important is pathetic. Who are we? The University of Utah, BYU and their collusive band of Mormon capitalists? There is a reason why Utah State and Weber State have lower enrollment and therefore lower allocations of tax dollars----they haven't sold out! They are still focused on the student and not on leveraging schemes with business people and politicians.
Ogden has much to desire, and there is no need to put hard earned tax payer dollars anywhere near the pot in order to sweeten it. It is sweet how it is. I'm sure that given enough time, a situation will present itself that will do great things for this community. Those businessmen and our Mayor who are trying spin any public support toward a business (other than zoning) need to get the hell out of town. We don't want them, and we don't need them.
We're one of only a few places that has managed to maintain some dignity in this filthy, money crubbing world! We have a beutiful home without the likes of Bob G. and Bernie Allen trying to turn it into an elitist Aspen, CO with Yoga and Tea parties.
Ozboy, don't let up...we count on you to help lead the charge against these guys. Giving them credit is wrong---they don't deserve it.
Anonymous
I understand your anger and contempt for Geiger, Bernie and the rest of the Godfreyites.
However, I do disagree with your take on their motives, at least in the case of Bob Geiger. I found him to be ernest, honest and well intentioned. The only problem I have with him is that he is following a false prophet in the Mayor. I have no doubt that he believes in what he is pushing for, and that he is not in it to get rich on the backs of the taxpayers.
Godfrey however is a different story. I have no doubt that getting rich on all of this crap is definately a part of his plan. Getting rich itself is not necessarily a bad motive, it is just that he wants to do it on the backs of the tax payers. The thing I dislike the most about the punk is the contempt he has for the poor and working class of Ogden. He is perfectly willing to screw over them in his quest for glory. I think this is why he is such a hated figure in Ogden. He is but a little nothing man with an inflated ego and no mercy for his victims who are the least powerfull amongst us. (It is called a "Napoleon Complex")
For six years he has been squandering the assets of Ogden in his lame attempt to build monuments to himself. He has wasted $50 million dollars of tax payer money, and in six years he has not had one single success to show for it.
I do not know Bernie, other than the drivel he writes on this blog. I find it pretty incredible that he can be rabid anti Bush, and at the same time an avid supporter of Godfrey. Godfrey is cut from the same neo-con and arrogant cloth that Bush is. There is no difference in their mentality and the contempt they have for those they govern. I also believe that the Allen's, Bernie included, will score a lot of money on the side if any of this Gondola stuff comes true. I think that is why they are so insidiously working the system to make it happen. Some of the crap they involved themselves in this, and with the recent election makes them low lifes in my opinion.
The only explanation for this anomaly, that I can see, is that Bernie is related to Godfrey. Pretty disengenuous stuff in my opinion. That, and the fact that he is a lawyer. I generally do not trust or like any lawyers that do not represent me. As the old saying goes: "I would rather have a sister in a whore house than a brother who is a lawyer!" (sorry Rudi, no offense meant) Incidently, friends in the Ogden legal community tell me that Bernie is a pretty piss poor lawyer. He claims to be a real "liberal" yet leads the cheering section while Godfrey blatantly screws over the poor and disinfranchised on a daily basis. What kind of liberal is that?
In spite of the above, I do not believe that any of the Godfreyite's have the intent to destroy Ogden. I think that they actually believe all of this Alice in Wonderland bull shit that they promote. They think that they are vested with superior knowledge and a calling from God to remake Ogden in the image of Aspen, for the "common good". It is lost on me just how any of these schemes would be any good for the vast majority of Ogden's citizens that can not participate in the high end recreational activities that are at the heart of their dreams. It sure doesn't seem to me that they have any concern what so ever for the common folks of this town that would have to foot the bill for their version of a more perfect and elitist Ogden.
Fear not, in Ogden's 150 or so year history it has suffered through the manipulations of many political hustlers like these guys. They are invariably thrown out with the trash, and Ogden always survives their vile assaults on its dignity.
Ozboy-
Very well put. I wish Godfrey, the Geigers et al would direct more energy to making Ogden a better place for THE CITIZENS OF OGDEN.
Do we really want to be the next Aspen?
How about Ogden, only better- with more opportunity for good paying jobs, a decent education, homeownership in safe neighborhoods, responsible & responsive government and a diverse thriving community? Many of the components are already there.
I have to agree! I wish that the Godfreyites would do more to help Ogden. The arrival of ski companies hasn't proven to do any good. In fact, their constant drumming for a Gondola threatens the future of this city. If that is why they came here, then I wish they would just leave.
Realistic and Responsible:
1) Buses Not Gondolas
2) Well meaning small businesses, not Massive Ski Resorts that destroy our mountains
3) Reputable Hospitals not Ernest
4) A school focused on the Students not Athletic and Research schools like University of Utah and BYU
5) Re-investment in our neighborhoods and schools not Gondolas and theme parks. --The money might be tight, but its honest!
Bill Glassmann and the new city council get it. Bonding our city to the pipe dreams of an elitist Ski and Resort town is bad, bad news for us all.
How long has it been since you've seen towns other than Ogden? They are money grubbing, miserable places that destroy their environment and empower only a few.
We were on the right track all along. I can't wait to see the Mayor go.
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