In short order we were talking gondolas, of course, the trendy new idea that's been prominent in the news of late. Everybody in the group seemed well-informed on the subject, thanks to the excellent recent reporting of John Wright, and that flashy sales brochure the "Lift Ogden" people furnished at no small expense as an insert in one of last week's Standard-Examiner editions. For those who haven't been following the news, or have just returned from a Mars mission, the two-stage gondola plan had so far been revealed as follows, at least as late as last night:
Mayor Godfrey's administration and the "Lift Ogden" folks would like to build an urban gondola system, to hook up the new downtown intermodal hub, at 23rd and Wall Avenue, with the Weber State University campus. One object of this project would be to serve the needs of students and other commuters who would arrive in Ogden via the new rail system which is expected to service the intermodal hub some time in 2008. This system, we are told, would relieve some of the campus's current parking difficulties. For purposes of this article, lets just call this system the "Godfrey Gondola."
The second "stage," according to everyone's understanding, is a separate gondola system, the lower terminal of which would be located near the Godfrey Gondola upper terminal, and run up the mountain to the top of Malan's basin, on the west side of Mt. Ogden. This second stage, which I'll call the "Peterson Gondola," would be built and privately financed by the newly-locally-prominent Chris Peterson, who just purchased Malan's Basin. Coincidentally, Mr. Peterson also happens to be the son-in-law of multi-billionaire Earl Holding, who owns Snow Basin, on the eastern side of Mt. Ogden. Mr. Peterson, we have been told, plans to build a year-round resort in Malan's Basin, which would include a small ski area. His father-in-law, by the way, denies any financial interest or connection in Mr. Peterson's venture. In fact he apparently barely even knows Mr. Peterson, according to some reports.
Anyway, my neighbors and I thoroughly discussed the relative merits of both the Godfrey Gondola and the Peterson Gondola, and we all seemed to reach consensus on one thing. None of us had any real objection to the Peterson Gondola as recently as last night, so long as it's built entirely with Mr. Peterson's funds -- assuming Mr. Peterson can get the thumbs' up from the Sierra club within his lifetime. While we didn't actually put it to a vote, I think everybody at last night's small gathering agreed that the Peterson Gondola would be a positive recreational asset.
I only bring this up because it confirms what I've been hearing anecdotally from other people I talk to around town. Although there seems to exist sharp disagreement over the feasibility of the Godfrey Gondola, the privately-funded Peterson Gondola seems to have had little serious opposition in Ogden.
That may change, however. Nothing is ever as simple as it seems here in the Land of Oz. The Standard-Examiner's John Wright has done a little additional information "digging" on the Peterson Gondola topic, and has "ferreted" out disturbing additional facts, which are reported in this front-page article:
WSU officials have expressed a reluctance to devote a portion of campus to a gondola station.
Godfrey said the gondola would travel 23rd Street between Wall Avenue and Harrison Boulevard, and Harrison Boulevard between 23rd Street and the university area.
"It's nebulous at that point," he said, adding that Mount Ogden Golf Course remains a possible location for the station.
The city would annex the property for the resort, Godfrey said, and Peterson would operate the gondola.
While the gondola could be used to deliver food and other supplies, an access road likely will be needed to build the resort, Godfrey said. The resort is expected to include skiing on the western slopes of Mount Ogden as well as a pedestrian village.
Let me see if I have this right. Weber State officials apparently aren't happy about the concept adding a gondola terminal to their already cramped campus, so Mount Ogden Golf Course becomes the Mayor's plan B for a WSU commute?
Do WSU officials object to any gondola station at all, or just the Peterson Gondola station? And in the event that the Weber State stations can't be worked out, are we to understand that the plan is to drop WSU commuters off six blocks north of the campus? That will still require some sort of additional ground shuttle system, it seems to me. Hmmmm....
And what about this "annexation" idea? While it would be fine to add Mr. Peterson's new "resort" to the Ogden City tax-base, the city would have certain affirmative obligations that would seemingly go along with the annexation benefits, such as building and maintaining roadways and such. Will Ogden taxpayers be expected to pick up the tab for the new "service road" that Mayor Godfrey speaks about in today's article? And what other details of the Peterson and Godfrey Gondola plans have not yet been revealed?
I don't know about our gentle Weber County Forum readers, but I'm suddenly finding myself less in favor of the Peterson Gondola plan than I was, even when I awakened early this morning. It seems to me this newest information has been slow in coming. The information seemingly comes in dribbles and drips -- just like much other information that's pried out of our Ogden City government regarding any of its grandiose plans.
What about it gentle readers? Does it seem that "Lift Ogden" may not have been entirely forthright with us so far? What about the candor of Ogden City government? The political combat-hardened cynic in me says that there may be still more information that's likely been withheld from Ogden City's citizens regarding the two gondola projects. Perhaps the "powers that be" are just mercifully administering this information in small palatable doses, to avoid sudden taxpayer shock.
And is there any one among us dumb enough to believe that this whole gondola scheme isn't designed primarily to serve the interests of Mr. Peterson's father-in-law? How stupid do these people actually think we are? Never mind answering that last question. I think we already know the answer to that one, at least.
Perhaps we ought to start thinking about annexing Snow Basin too, as long as we're expanding our tax base.
Comments, anyone?
Our friend UTmorMAN is running a gondola poll over on his the good in Ogden website, by the way. Perhaps some of our readers would like to pay a visit, and vote in his running poll. While you're at it, take the time to view the "electronic voting machine video." It's really very good. There's also plenty of pro-gondola information there too, for any gondola fanatics.
56 comments:
I recently talked with someone who compared the gondola idea to a vampire. It just keeps coming back to life, and someone needs to drive a stake through it so it can finally be laid to rest.
With WSU having reservations about the gondola/tram epicenter taking place on the campus, Mount Ogden Golf Course might be the logical replacement. Now, the East Bench fat cats, the folks who chastized the good people in the 22nd & Wall neighborhood for not giving up their homes for WalMart, might just get to enjoy a re-run of that situation, with them in the starring roles. Remember, Utmormon, when someone threw that possibility to you about your mom's house? "Gotta have it, here's the price, take it or we hit ya with the good old eminent domain weapon....we need your house for the thoroughfare or whatever else might be necessary to put this thing together," says the Mayor.
These are interesting times, eh?
Mt. Ogden golf course is a pretty big place. I don't think that it has to go right in somebody's house.
I happened to be at the meeting last evening and actually left more enthused and excited about the project than I was before. I attended the meeting as a somewhat skeptical "observer". What Mr. Wright failed to mention in his article is that Weber State is warming to the idea of a gondola after having reservations. There is now a building buzz to the idea after Mayor Matt went up there to present the idea to students and administration. Weber State's main concern is parking...The parking issue would be solved with a hub downtown. The meeting was actually very informative and really added puzzle pieces for me. Mr. Wright surprized me with his story's negative tone, especially after following around the Mayor and Mr. Peterson like a lost puppy! This gondola concept is really looking like a great opportunity for Ogden.
Amen Ogdenite! From reading UTmorMAN's article on the same subject, it seems like students want it. It is their school, not the administrations'. It is a job, not an alma matter for them. If the students want it, then it should be done.
I'd like to know what the current candidates think about the whole idea. I saw a few there last night at the meeting. I met steve larsen and steve prisbee and i think a couple others were there. I know steve larsen supports the idea but mr prisbee wouldn't give me his oppinion. Rudi, you should ask them in your list of questions you plan on giving them.
Opie,
Weber State seems to actually have quite a bit of supporters. It seems like there is just a select few who may not like the idea but beat their drums relly loudly. Of course, it doesn't help to have the Sierra Club in opposition and the fact that the head of the local branch (get it!) is a professor at W.S.U. There are plenty of W.S.U. faculty members and board members that are in Lift Ogden. Again, the students seem to support this. They seem to want a campus life and more students there.
Also, Mr. Peterson has talked about a new degree program at W.S.U. in conjunction with his resort. That can only be good for the University.
Also, Rudi don't you go cold on the idea now. It is still a good idea, and that, CentCit, is why it does not go away. It never will until something is done. It has always been a good idea and now is even better because of the recent developments.
Oh yeah, almost forgot something:
Woodie and others, why don't you wait until the plans are actually laid out before you guys and Fighting Eminent Domain Crusaders (good band name, huh?) start figuring that people will lose their homes.
One more though,
Rudi, lend me your expertice and explain how the Sierra Club can do anything against somebody developing their own private property. Also, you have written a novel on private property rights; doesn't this fit into your view of doing what you please with your property and not letting anybody else dictate what you can and can't do?
Small doses indeed, Rudi. And good points about the City's obligations should annexation occur.
After the unanswered question about that, and the other one about Who Will Be Paying For The Godfrey Gondola, other questions remain.
Has a geological survey of that land been done to determine if it slips? Some of that land has slipped in the past, and the Beus' Pond road is doing so now, I believe. Malan's Basin itself may be okay, but what about where they're intending to put the poles?
What about pollution? Things get bad enough here in inversions without having a lot of heavy diesel equipment for grooming runs, etc., backed up right against the mountain. We run afoul of the EPA enough here already.
Will there be enough snow? Snow Basin sometimes has to make a lot of it, and this resort will be lower.
The connection between the two currently is not making sense. If the Godfrey gondola goes up 23rd, along Harrison, and then connects to the other one "around Mount Ogden Golf Course", this means that it will have to take a jog up 28th, 29th, 30th, 32nd---somewhere. Meaning that gondola riders will be treated to stunning views of residents' upstairs bedrooms and baths, their backyards, etc. Not to mention possible problems with communication lines all over up there.
I don't think anyone would really want this---having it grinding ceaselessly by the house all day filled with gawkers. Sort of a gouge in people's privacy, I would think.
Finally, do they actually think they can get all those poles in without dinging a couple of rusty Ogden City water pipes? Some of them have leaked under the roads to the point that heavy equipment can't be parked there because when it is, the road buckles.
I am sure there are many things about these gondola projects that we are not yet aware of that we should know before we can even decide whether we are for or against it. I'm for sitting back and waiting for more info at this point.
I for one am extremely excited about both legs of the Gondola. Build it and they will come.
Do west facing ski slopes exist?
What about the high snow slide occurances on the west face of mount ogden?
What about Peterson admitting that it would only be a "mediocre" resort if built because of the size limitations?
Would any of Petersen's resort be visable from Ogden?
Since when does what Weber college students want drive public transit policies?
If the Godfrey tram is what the students want then they can pay for it with their other student fees.
Vote in November to restore sanity to Ogden City government.
With modern snow making equipment you bet your life they can exist. Welcome to the new millenium!
OK...."students want it" and "students seem to support this." Do they? When was the opinion poll taken? Where's the opinion poll results? Don't have any, do you. Just a few student skiers all reved up. So much for that.
"Doing what you please with your property." Hmmm. Just because you own property doesn't mean you can do what you want with it. It has to follow zoning regs, State geological regs, various hillside ordinace regs, easements, etc. What you do on your property can't have a negative effect on your neighbor. You can't build a dogfood processing plant next door to a church. You can't have a strip club downtown. You certainly can't have some gondola infringing on someones privacy and his or her inalienable right to "quiet enjoyment."
What we do havew here is a situation that needs more study and research. Suddenly all you kids come out of the woodwork just because Chris Peterson is going to finance a tram and a Malan's Basin development. A road needs building. Permits and environmental concerns need to happen. Much on the plate. So, instead of pronouncing everything is hunky-dorey, pause, take a breath, GATHER THE FACTS, and then proceed.
There might be something here. There might not be. By everything that has been posted by both sides, in the matter of just a few hours, tells me that this needs an objective look by all. Nobody, neither those for nor those against, should go off half cocked, spew out unsupported facts, and move forth without the proper research, like Godfrey did with the Wreck Center.
This thing has potential, providing all concerns are met. Don't let's move into it like Mad Matt did with the Wreck and have costly delays pile up and up. Do it right from the old git-go, and maybe Ogden will realize something beneficial, without millions of dollars going down the drain because the research and process were flawed.
Take a breath and do your homework. You kids seem to be pretty astute....put together a representative poll, gather results, and let's see what ya get. Ball's in your hands....let's see if you can make a first down before claiming you won the game.
The snow on westward facing slopes is crap regardless of whether it falls from the sky, or out the head of a snow making nozzle. It heats up in the morning, turns to slush in the afternoon and freezes into an ice sheet at night. It does this every day all winter. That's why you don't find ski resorts on the western side anywhere in the world.
Chris Peterson should stick to what he's good at: Ski Resort Tycoon Download
Woodrow, if that taking a step back is what you crave, then do that yourself. Don't go off on us and leave yourself out my man. Remember this "Now, the East Bench fat cats, the folks who chastized the good people in the 22nd & Wall neighborhood for not giving up their homes for WalMart, might just get to enjoy a re-run of that situation, with them in the starring roles." Okay, then as Mo said earlier and as you are saying now, take a step back and look and gather information. Got it? When it is proven that houses have to be lost, then you may speak. Just as soon as us "kids" seem to come out of the woodworks, you and your merry little band of Eminant Domain pals come out just as loud. In the end, you do what you say and then I will too.
UTmorMAN was right in his column. It is hilarious how quickly some of you jump into the Question Game mode the moment some idea is brought to the table that just MIGHT be feasible and just MIGHT help out Ogden. It's so easy to play... helps you continue the masquerade as the Ogden Superhero- running off to save Ogden from itself. Give me a break. I'm surprised more of you haven't begun the Question Game regarding that massive underground river that's going to bring back Lake Bonneville. (Reference to Rudi's previous post)
I can just hear it now:
"How much are tax payers going to have to pay to clean up this lake? Is this truly part of Ogden's Evision Utah plans? Does this mean the city will take my home for the new Lake Bonneville State Park?"
Honestly, I think we should just trust our leaders in every decision that they make and we should just support that.
Hey utmorman, I don't think more people are going to be coming to Weber just to ride a damn gondola. In an earlier comment you mentioned something about it possibly bringing more out-of-state tuition. Yeah right. I can just see it now, everyone from Laramie and Pocatello coming just so they can ride the gondola from the transit hub.
Hey Centerville citizen I think someone has a message for you at Utmormans site. How mature is that? I really don't understand why people can't discuss humanely
ogdenite said...
"Rudi, you should ask them in your list of questions you plan on giving them."
Great idea, Ogdenite. I have a question like that on my short list. Is there any particular way you think I ought to frame the question?
Specifically, exactly what question would ask the candidates on this subject. I'm running a little behind on the quwestionaire project, so there's still time to offer suggestions.
cent-a-cit,
You can honestly tell me that out of state people would not come to a place where the next class is just as far as the ski resort. There are already people looking to send their kids here because of the Malan's Basin development. Tell me this: why do people go to school in San Diego? Why do people go to school in Alaska? Montana? They go to be able to go to college somewhere where they can study and go to the beach, go fishing, or be in the outdoors among many reasons. Well, people will come to go to school in Ogden for the same reason. It would be THE ONLY UNIVERSITY IN THE WORLD WITH A DIRECT LINK TO A SKI RESORT. As I said earlier, after a ski industry employee came to Ogden for a sales meeting he decided to send his kids here instead of Colorado University. That is out of state tuition! They pay almost double! That helps you, me, and the rest of the students at Weber because that is one thing that Weber lacks. They simply don't have many out of state students and that is a reason they keep raising tuition. It's nice to finally see you showing your true colors to those of us up north.
Yeah, that will be deleted shortly, sorry Cent-a-cit. Discussion should take place, but not in that manner.
Yeah, I'm sorry utmorman. I get a little worked up sometimes.
Cent-a-cit, I was referring to the comment on my blog to you from el presidente. Not to worry, you and I do have the ability to discuss in a civil manner. We can talk it up any ole' time.
This UtMo is once again demonstrating his complete cluelessness! His endless supply of blind faith proclamations is quite the wonderous thing to behold! I stand amazed.
My favorite from his last devotional is:
"people will come to go to school in Ogden for the same reason. It would be THE ONLY UNIVERSITY IN THE WORLD WITH A DIRECT LINK TO A SKI RESORT"
Wow, and you just know he is serious!
I think there are a number of World Wide Universities that would dispute this wild claim. This is provincialism in in its most simple form.
Of course there are also a number of World Wide Universities that dispute that Weber State is a University. I believe most of them would. In fact a fair number of Weber's own faculty would.
So instead of Weber continuing on its fine course of being an institution of higher learning you Godfreyites will have it become a haven for rich ski bums to shoosh thru to their fore year degrees in the Petersen school of mediocre resort management.
Is it true that west facing slopes are shit skiing regardless of how or where the snow comes from? Does elevation make a difference?
Will they have to cut a big honkin road up Taylor's canyon to build this resort? That in itself could be a major cats ass trophy and huge insult to our bench area and mountain. Can you imagine looking up at Malan's peak (that's the lower round one) and seeing a big old truck driving around the curve up there?
And what about the towers and cables and trams up the side of the mountain? How ugly is that going to be? How much damage will it do to the mountain?
The whole face of that mountain between Ogden Canyon and Weber Canyon is a trademark and the birthright of every person born and raised in this town and of every one who loves it. Will this contraption up the side of it disfigure it in any way?
If the Son in Law gondola gets built with private money and the blessings of the citizens of Ogden and it doesn't scar up the mountain, then so be it I wish them luck.
If the Godfey gondola is necessary, like he says, for the Son in Law gondola to succeed, then the Son in Law and or the Godfreyites should pay for it.
And oh ya, I almost forgot, all the Mexicans and poor folks can be porters and waiters to the rich ski bums, kinda like the old railroad days. Maybe that is what the little big guy on nine means when he says its gonna be just like in the old times only better.
The Godfreyites will end like all cults that spring up in these fertile fields of Zion. They will be discredited and laughed into the background by the real world.
I think a close parallel can be drawn between this current cult and the Morrisites of the 1800's. They, like the Godfreyites, were blind followers of a false prophet and they lapped up every off the wall scheme and dream that old Morris came up with, just like today.
Unfortunately the Morrisites ended in violence and death of the leader and the movement at the hands of Brigham's militia. To bad brother Brigham isn't around today to handle our modern day cultists.
Fortunately for them we live in a more civilized and democratic time. (Yes that is democratic in spite of what the little big guy on nine claims about us living in a Republik). Now instead of shooting them down as a public menace, we can just let them fade into irrelevance under the weight of their own ignorance.
So Utmo, you have that madman the president on your site, huh? Ain't it fun, having this imbecile treat your readers like garbage, using those anain comparisons, fouling your blog with his horrid language? Just the thing to stimulate a blogsite. Because of that guy, I don't visit your site. I know many boggers who feel the same. The president guy is an immature ass who offers nothing except foul stench. His mental/intelligent elevator stops way short of the top floor. Better you than us, tho.
Now, just where the hell did you get your information that "there are already people looking to send their kids here because of the Malan's Basin development."? It was only yesterday that this news hit the paper and "already" you have obtained info on WSU's enrollment due to that. Gee-zust, you people amaze me.
Probably there are students who have chosen Weber State for its proximatey to Snow Basin, but because Chris Peterson has floated his idea to the local press, people around the country are now planning to send their kids here? That comment is just plain foolish. Completely unsupported. It's akin to the Mayor's policy of spin and claiming that "if we build it, they'll come." So far, this position has driven our city, a good city with tremendous potential, into a debt of $76,000,000.
I don't understand where you guys come up with these statements, or why. Maybe it's your belief in wishful thinking. But as long as you continue on this course, your efforts and productivity are being wasted. Go, work hard on these things, but don't start harping to us about information that you've made up and has absolutely no support, except for maybe that one skier guy you referenced.
As for the only universtiy in the world to have a direct link to a ski resort....where did you research that? The world is full of colleges and halls of higher education. Do you really think that Weber State would be the only one to link a campus to a resort? Tell us your sources. Switzerland has both colleges and ski resorts. Can you actually show us that there are none of those campuses with a direct link? What about Stowe, Vermont, University of Denver, the University of California system?
For you to make these claims doesn't make it so. It only tarnishes you and what you stand for. You seem like a fairly intelligent dude, Utmo (I've said this more than once), but you're starting to slip with this kind of posting.
Support your statements and that will support your cause. Otherwise, people will soon pay little or no attention to what you bring to the table and you'll be spending your time dealing with that idiot el presidente.
Of course, the "he is slipping" argument has to come into play whenever folks don't have a better agrument. I don't have to reveal any sources. Not many sources are revealed on this site. When other's do it, so will I. If we are going to go after sources, then have Rudi tell you all the credntial of his environmental analysis friend. It's the same concept. You worry about making unsubstainted claims that houses will have to be cleared to create a gondola and I'll make my claims that W.S.U. would be the only ski resort in the world with a direct link to a ski resort and that students are already coming here because of what is happening.
Well Opie-DOPIE, you're living up to your name, I see. Modern snow making machines dotting the West face of Mt. Ogden. I can't say this for a fact, but I'll wager a goodly amount that there are no real ski resorts, especially resorts that will have the price tag of this one to get up and running, whose foundation and operation is determined by "modern snow making machines." Good lord, boy, those things are but band-aids. They are not and never have been, the life blood of a big time resort. And this Malin's Basin resort has to be a big time resort as you're all claiming that it's the ONLY ONE IN THE WORLD with a direct link to a college campus and already people are planning to send their kids to Weber because of it.
Now, speaking of Weber State, you need to enroll in beginning English/Lit so you can learn how to read and decipher the message. I used the word "might," Which means just that, they "might" see how those down on Wall felt. Then again, they "might" not. That's whats known as a possibility, OPIE-DOPIE, it ain't fact....and you need to learn this stuff if you expect people to take you seriously.
Now, get back to class, study hard, take a hike up to Malin's Basin and have lunch while you ponder its beauty and imagniarily place the Tram station where it belongs and hopefully becomes compatible with that beautiful environment.
And one final notation: "and then you may speak," this from you refering to me. I wonder, who died and left you in charge?
Woodward,
Apparently you are the one who is having trouble with the word "might". Recent excitement has generated at the possibilities that the gondola, rec center, etc. MIGHT be bringing to Ogden and already you and your cronies are performing post-mordems claiming they have already failed. There's the pot calling the kettle black if I ever saw it. I don't recall to many of you naysayers using the word MIGHT when talking about Mayor Godfrey's ideas- just a bunch of old biddies talking about what WON'T happen- Look who knows so much!
Better re-read, or better let enroll in the English/Lit 101 class with your pals Opie-Dopie, Utmo, etc. what you clowns and the Mayor, Mad Matt write....hotels, ski businesses, theaters, students at the college, all because of some stupid gondola idea. Just go back thru the archives, son....it's all there.
Never did say the stuff would fail (again, READ); just think it's a dumb idea to build a 2 stop gondola and there's absolutley NO sources to back your assertions about students, world class campus linked to ski resorts, etc. And if if that is the case, so-freakin-what? You young uns are supposed to go to class to get the bang out of your mommie and daddie's bucks, not be fooling around at some mediocre ski resort.
And Utmo, I tlaked to Rudi about his source and it's unimpeachable, a true expert in his field. And again, kid, READ....I didn't "claim" anyone would loose their house for a parking lot, I didn't even say that more land would be necessary for a parking lot....I floated a "might." Nothing more, nothing less.
So, you guys do need to attend class more, and quit with the skiing crap. As has been said once before:
OFTEN AMUSSED; RARELY IMPRESSED!
Woodie (called that because of the little blue pill I'm sure),
What were the last brand new ski resorts? They don't happen too often. You and your palls sit back and say that nothing can or will happen and the rest of us who seem to be forcefully taking over the deed to the city, will move right on into the new century and use the great new technology to our benefit. You just sit there with your '48 Studabaker and I Love Lucy reruns and the newbies will use what the world now has. Not to say that a ski resort should depend on snow making technology, but there have been advancements that will help if needed.
Being intrigued with Ozboy's comparison of the gondola faction to a cult, and also being taken aback by that faction's ridicule of posters who ask questions, I searched "cults."
Found ICSA, the International Cultic Studies Association. They have a page where they list characteristics of a cult. You are supposed to check which characteristics apply to the group you are involved with to determine if it is indeed a cult. The list is below:
"The group is focused on a living leader to whom members seem to display excessively zealous, unquestioning commitment.
The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.
The group is preoccupied with making money.
Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.
Mind-numbing techniques (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, debilitating work routines) are used to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).
The leadership dictates sometimes in great detail how members should think, act, and feel (for example: members must get permission from leaders to date, change jobs, get married; leaders may prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, how to discipline children, and so forth).
The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s), and members (for example: the leader is considered the Messiah or an avatar; the group and/or the leader has a special mission to save humanity).
The group has a polarized us- versus-them mentality, which causes conflict with the wider society.
The group's leader is not accountable to any authorities (as are, for example, military commanders and ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream denominations).
The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify means that members would have considered unethical before joining the group (for example: collecting money for bogus charities).
The leadership induces guilt feelings in members in order to control them.
Members' subservience to the group causes them to cut ties with family and friends, and to give up personal goals and activities that were of interest before joining the group.
Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group.
Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members"
The suppression of questions is indeed there, as are other similarities. I find the putting down of those who question very odd indeed, because some time ago, on this very forum, there was this post:
"UTmorMAN said...
This is just me thinking out loud, but this forum seems to be a place where you won't get crucified for asking questions or thinking out loud...."
I guess some things do change.
Characteristics of a Cult
Weber County Forum
Dian, Woodie, (or the lack there of),
I find your last posts almost as amusing as Rudi's must have article about the wasatch falling into an underground river, and lift ogden being a cult What in the Hell Almighty, Dian after that last post I'm going to send that damn book back I want a refund. Woodie, (or the lack thereof) this is going to be a year round resort. Grouse Creek very similar to Malan's Basin Development attracted 700,000 Gondola riders last year, only 200,000 skied, do the math old buddy I know you guys here at Wcforum know how to count your viagra pills. Ya thats right 500,000 rode the Gondola for the other recreation. So listen and listen good don't get so hung up on a West facing ski resort. The owner isn't worried about it and you shouldn't either this guy is very bright he would not be putting millions of dollars into this if it wasn't a killer idea.
Yeah, that all seemed to change the day I did get figuratively crucified for saying that and the statement that followed. I like to discuss and ask questions and such, but I had to adapt to this board and it's various personalities to survive.
Stein,
Perfectly said. That is also the case in Sandia Peak in N.M. over 60% of their riders come in the six "summer" months. I also agree that Chris Peterson does know very well what he is doing. People seem to discount his ability and qualifications in this matter. He is very qualified and knows just what he is doing. Everybody talked about the big companies not making stupid decisions based on speculation; but a big businessman is not going to put millions of dollars into something and build it from the gound up if he does not know what he is doing.
Also, Lift Ogden is no more a cult than Rudi, Woodie and the merry men of the church of the savior of property rights.
Stein, I am intrigued by this Grouse Creek... is it a resort, a town... I tried a Google search and came up blank on a Grouse Creek Tram or Gondola... Do you have some more information that may point me in the right direction?
I would truly like to know what... how much... and details of the funding of the gondola project. Specifically, how much this is going to cost us as taxpayers. It seems to me that this is the main reason for the plethora of "information" about the gondola so far... it seems to be building towards opening our pocketbooks.
At this point, the gondola seems to be taking too much press from the linchpin of Ogden's redevelopment... the Rec Center which has been given a back seat as of late in the news. How much is the environmental clean-up going to cost the city before development can continue? Shouldn't we know this before beginning yet another project? Shouldn't a tally be given about all the other projects and our ROI? We don't have a rec center yet. We don't have a hub yet... as commuter rail will not be here until 2008.
Our debt at the moment is not good debt as it has yet to return any profit to the city or to us. On the contrary, I had lunch today with a gentleman who discussed BDO and what a boon it has been to the city. BDO is making money for the city. BDO seems to be working... yet these other projects seem to be leeching that money with no real revenue to show. BDO is not necessarily a "visionary" project. It is a very "grounded" business park with a good, advantageous (read - lots of benefits for tenants) package to sell to incoming businesses.
We heard about the Union Square... and all the excitement surrounding that... then WalMart... then the Rec Center... then the Riverfront Project... then the gondola. It seems rather rushed and ill thought-out as to strategy... and appears... at least to me, that the administration is lacking in focus.
I understand what they want to accomplish... but I haven't seen brilliant execution in the actual accomplishing.
This is why I think this blog has attracted a large amount of interest. I think people are concerned about the direction that this is taking. We seem to start projects and lose steam... lose focus... in favor of the next biggest and greatest thing. I wish the administration would come out with numbers, facts, and data to tell us where we stand money-wise in this city. If the picture is rosy... then thinking "big" is fine. If we are entrenched in a downward swirling whirlpool of interest payments and shrinking revenue, then let's fix it by retrenching and figuring out the best plan out. I think the big concern on the minds of most of the posters on this board is when are we going to finish what we started five "visions" ago.
"Also, Lift Ogden is no more a cult than Rudi, Woodie and the merry men of the church of the savior of property rights."
If by that you mean we're cultists because we're opposed to theft by government, you can call us cultists, I guess. Call it a Cult of the Legacy of Our American Founding Fathers, who gave us a valuable legacy which some youngsters don't appreciate, and seem willing to fritter away.
And I'm still waiting for a convincing argument as to why the Godfrey Gondola would be anything more than a hokey gimmick, BTW. I've ridden in many gondolas in my life; and wouldn't consider them to be a preferred mode of transporatation at all.
I still haven't heard anything that's giving me the "buzz" that has the Godfrey Gondola fanatics all in a tizzy.
Maybe I need to get my hands on some of that Lift Ogden kool-aide.
And all I keep hearing from some young whipper-snappers is that I'm just an old fart...although I'm actually a healthy 56-year old who can ski the legs off most people on the mountain.
Give us something rational, youthful gondola freaks. Enough of the ad hominems.
I did not mean to accuse you at all Rudi. What I meant was simply that you are a part of a group that goes and speaks about what you believe. Lift Ogden is of the same mold. I guess "cult" carries a negative connotation for me. I have studied cults and know that Lift Ogden, and your group is far, far from being that. BTW, I think some of the frustration from the younger crowd comes because they feel that the older gen. maybe does not want to see things sometimes. I can see both sides as I have said many times that the previous generation has a lot to teach me and all of us, but I can see some friction about the percieved way the world was and what it may be today. Somebody said it here before, but when other's start giving completely factual based, completely evidenced, sources cited information then everybody else can too. The argument about the credentials of your friend the environmentalist is a perfect example. I believe that he is as credible as you say he is, but no sources were cited, no credential given, just your word. The nature of this blog and these types of sites are that way and if you want it to change, then get all of your readers and participants to do it. But beware, because I'm sure you will get quite a bit less commentary.
I think this is the right place:
Grouse Mountain Skyride
Bingo, Dian. It has many of the tell-tale aspects of a cult.
If you couple some Ogden citizens' inherent cultural inferiority complex (our friend UTmorMAN had a good article on his blog the other day, wherein he labelled what I call "cultural inferiority complex" "negativity,") with an inspirational leader or two who promise to lead us to the promised land, you wind up with cult movements like the "Godfrey Gondola" Fantasy.
Cultists who are entranced by the vision don't give a hoot about the nuts-and-bolts. They don't care a whit about how much it costs, who pays for it, or any of the details of how it gets done. All they care about is that their inspired leaders' visions be fulfilled, and that they thereby become released from their feelings of inferiority.
Oh please, give me a fetchin break Rudi, go get some sleep. and we'll talk tommorrow.
That's OK, UTmorMAN. i seldom take personal offense at anything that can be said. As you know, I've spent most of my life in a profession where practioners are well-paid to beat each other bloody by day, and then meet afterhours for cocktails and cordial conversation.
There's one caveat I'm going to give you though. I was once very young, dreamy and idealistic too. During the course of my life I've finally managed to develop good judgment.
Good judgment, BTW, is grounded on a foundation of lots of bad judgment, as the old saying goes.
One of the annoying things about the American culture is its worship of youth. America, unlike most other cultures, especially the ancient ones, worships youth.
As others have noted here, there will always be a battle of generations here in America between the unbridled audacity of youth, and the seasoned experience of the more mature. Good judgment comes with time and experience. It's something that simply can't be learned at WSU.
I frankly think that the whole idea of a downtown gondola is nothing short of weird and goofy. If tourists want to go to the lower terminal of that $200M Hotel that's dreamily going to locate downtown to the lower Peterson Tram terminal, they can ride up there in a limo. They won't want to be trapped in a stuffy gondola, rattling along and overlooking the unexceptional non-Tyrolian architcture of the early-to-mid 20th century as they pass by overhead. Think about it, once the kool-aide wears off.
I'm still asking myself why the Godfrey Gondola makes any sense at all.
All youngsters should listen to their elders. Most of us beyond forty years have learned by that stage in life to identify snake-oil salemen when we see them.
The Godfrey Gondola folks are peddling snake oil. Trust me on this. My BS detector is reading off-scale.
I hope you know I'm not putting the "knock on you," BTW, UM.
I just think you need to awaken from the trance.
Anonymous said...
"Oh please, give me a fetchin break Rudi, go get some sleep. and we'll talk tommorrow. "
That's fine anonymous. Take your time. Take a week or two if you like.
There's no hurry. Gathering your thoughts is probably a major project for you.
Does anyone remember the episode of the Simpsons where some archetypal salesman comes to Springfield with the idea of putting a monorail around the town? Springfield decides to put it in, and it becomes a failure. It eerily reminds me of this gondola situation.
No doubt about it, Centerville Citizen. Life definitely imitates art here in Emerald City.
Thanks for the uncannily accurate art-example:-)
You've given us all even more food for thought.
OK, we can agree to disagree on this one. Maybe you can come to a Lift Ogden Meeting and get some more info. On that note, I would appreciate a stop to the cult comparisons, because the only thing worse than ad hominem (sp?) is character assination.
These comparisons of Lift Ogden and a cult are clearly false analogies, or a division fallacy. With that said, I think all these attacks on Rudi and other bloggers here is counterproductive and a waste of time and credibility. I find Rudi to be most intelligent, and very patient with these silly attacks. Rudi, have you considered attending a Lift Ogden mtg?
Rudi, you know what your problem is you think to much. I am going to diagnose you right now, it is called paralysis of ANALysis. You don't think Ogden has any major problems. You say it is perception only. You say youngsters should always listen to their elders. What a bunch of hogwash Bullshit.
I don't want the damn gondola.
I don't want the high priced entertainment center!
I don't the little man in office to lay his hands on anymore Ogden property.
I want the CC to serve the people that elected them!
I want to be told the truth by people who know what the truth is, and that is NOT the little man in office or his family members.
I don't want the little man in office to abtain the fishing hole on 20th street to start a new pet project of his.
I want the adults in charge!
I have never disliked anyone as much as I have the current little man playing mayor,in this city.
I want the Gondola.
I want the badly needed rec center.
I want the little man to stay in office, heaven knows what this place would've been hopeless if Garcia was mayor.
The truth is evident.
It is a treat to have Goode testing waterskis her at 21st pond and anything that enhances that is awesome. I have been skiing on Goode waterskis for over a decade.
The adults are in charge, and there is now hope in Ogden again.
I don't think we have had a mayor as hungry and dynamic as the little man in the history of Ogden.
I have never liked any elected official more than our current mayor. He is working to improve Ogden instead of just sitting in his office like some in the past.
Read my post on today's first thread....once again, Godfrey is showing what a ruthless, unethical little man he really is. Small in stature with a seat in power. A deadly combination. A hypocrite. Not much this guy wouldn't do to further his agenda. And he's got the support of at least 4, sometimes 5, council members. This guy is scary. These guys are scary. And it's us who'se responsible for allowing them to operate.
His best thoughts and plans have our city upside down to the tune of over $76,000,000. And there are those among us who don't bat an eye at that. Why?
Is it because he's "doing something?" Hell, people, anyone can claim that. He is doing something, but he ain't doing it right or there wouldn't be a $76,000,000 bad-horse debt. Excuse pave Godfrey's path. Nothing is working. Developers have walked out on our city because of his attitude. Funds are flip-flopped in such a way that nobody can track them. If you don't support the guy, you're on his "hit list." There's no Mayorial decorum in Ogden's Mayor Office, only an ego driven angry stop at nothing little man who'se bound and determined to further his own political ambitions at our expense.
should read:
Excuses paves Godfrey's path.
Ralley! Support Garcia! Out with 'em all! In with the new!
The problem is, KIDS, that Godfrey twists, spins and manipulates, with no regard for the collateral damage.
The guy just flat don't know what he's doing!
Want proof? Take a look at his projects: Riverwalk-stalled; Wreck Center-9 delays, stalled, $30 mil upside down without a footing poured; Union Square-bankrupt; Marshall White Center-privatised; WalMart-shot down.
He can load all that crap on his imaginary gondola and drop 'em off where-ever the hell the fool thing goes.
Ogdenite: "These comparisons of Lift Ogden and a cult are clearly false analogies, or a division fallacy."
Wrong. It is not necessarily fallacious to draw a conclusion about the parts of a whole based on the properties of the whole. Reasonable inferences can be drawn, even though all criteria are not filled. It's all about probability; not absolutes.
"Rudi, have you considered attending a Lift Ogden mtg?"
I've never been invited to one, although I've continuously begged invitations. When the next one, Ogdenite? Will I be invited? I'll give you fair warning. I am not susceptible to group-think, and I don't follow "inspirational leaders," and am in fact repelled by them. And I speak my mind, even if out-numbered.
Why not invite me to one of your meetings at a specific date and time? Why not invite an outspoken bar-room brawler type me to one of your meetings?
I'd love to assess your "group." The impression I've gotten so far is that it's mainly composed of "motivational types" who live in their vans down by the river, and is dominated by a core of effette intellectual types who bamboozle everyone.
Send me an invite to your next meeting, and I'll be there.
My mind's never made up on anything until I've heard the best argument; and so far I haven't heard anything other than weak emotional/inspirational crap.
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