By Curmudgeon
Two interesting items in this morning's Standard-Examiner:
First, a good editorial on mudslinging, focusing mostly on Mr. Brown's unfortunate and intemperate tirade at last weeks Council meeting.
Less fortunate, a story about an Ogden businessman named David Pieser who has written to the head of Amer Sports [who I understand recently moved to Ogden] threatening to organize a boycott against Amer and its products if its North American Division head continues to support [as he says he does] "the concept" of the gondola.
I do not know Mr. Pieser and I share his concerns about the Mayor's risky gondola/gondola plan. But I think his attempt to coerce Amer Sports North American Division head, Mr. Mike Dowse, to abandon his tepid pro-gondola stance [note he endorsed not the Mayor's scheme for a flatland gondola and sale of the Mt. Ogden Parklands; he endorsed only "the concept of the gondola" -- which could easily include support of only a privately owned and operated gondola from the head of 36th Street to Malan's Basin should the city [wisely] endorse that].
Mr. Pieser's boycott plan is, I think, unfortunate in two ways: (a) first, Mr. Dowse is now an Ogdenite [welcome, Mr. Dowse. I think you'll like it here. I do.] and so he has, by right of moving here, now the same right to enter the public discussion of the various gondola plans as I do. Or Mr. Pieser does. And without having his business threatened because he might not agree with me [or Mr. Pieser] on what is best to be done. And (b) no boycott Ogdenites might organize could, I think, possibly so affect Amer's sales as to have a hope of succeeding.
Mr. Dowse is now one of us, fully entitled to enter the lists on matters of public discussion on any side he chooses. Welcome aboard, Mr. Dowse, and if you'd like to sit down over a cup of coffee [or some Roosters microbrew perhaps] some afternoon and discuss "the concept of the gondola" and what you mean by that, and what the gondola might mean for Ogden's residents, of which you are now one.... well, I'm buying.
I was happy about one thing the Pieser article did, though. It makes it clear that not all Ogden businessmen are in the Gondolistas' camp. But I think it's wrong to threaten a man's business for his personal stands on public issues as a citizen of Ogden. As wrong, and for the same reason, as say a Mayor threatening the job of a city employee who disagrees with him on a matter of public policy.
Ed. Note: Among other things, Mr. Pieser mentions the possibility of establishing a blog, to inform the lumpencitizens of Emerald City of the defects in the landgrab/gondola scheme. What a great idea, we say. We wonder why somebody hasn't thought of that before? ;-)
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59 comments:
Curm.
Thank you as always for your level- headed perspective. The last thing we need in Ogden is for new (or old) businesses to be threatened - by groups for or against the gondola.
I read what the mayor has said concerning the bad way this could impack buisnesses. I would just like to bring to everyones attention about how the mayor and or his wife was calling businesses and telling them if they support a referendum on the ballot that their business could be in jepordy! is there any diferance between that and what is said today in the SE. I wish that the mayor would open his little brain and let people know that when he does not like things going the way from him, how he will look to the tatics as I had just mentioned. So mayor maybe some of the people have learned from your example here. So if you would repent then I think others would repent to. IT all starts with the leaders, that is why they are called leaders. This is why Neil Hansen is the best canidate for the mayors office, I have noticed that the paper had metioned that he has yet to get into the name calling. good for him not to get all muddied up in this war of mud, he is not like that and I know that he will take the high road as he always does. The race is still early and after all he is the only announced candidate!
I think that it is interesting that these two (jesse and matt) think that they both could win such a prestigious office with all the name calling that has been done, neither one of them have shown that they have what it takes to be the honorable Mayor, and to get beyond all this, I would not vote for either one of them and they have been a discrace to this city and who they represent. They should both kiss and make up, but you know that is not going to happen because their true colors have finally been waved in the wind. They are now damaged good. shame on them. shame shame shame. I would think that Rep. Neil Hansen would bring this city back from the shame that is now here.
The editoral picture of the train wreck reminds me of how our once Mayor Cliff Goff said that we need to have a train wreck to bring attention to Ogden, I didn't think this is quite what he had in mind but as you all can see this idea even today is not a good idea, thanks Matt and Jesse for making Cliff's dream come true.
Well, I hope Curm will buy Dowse a cup of cffee or take a coffee cake to the Dowse house (no rhyming intended!) and give him a proper Ogden welcome.
However, the man is on record as being a supporter of the mayor's visions, and at least three cheerleaders were up to the podium at the March 6th CC meeting singing the mayor's praises! The only thing they didn't do was cursty when the Geigers and B Allen and entourage 'burst' into applause TWICE...AND weren't escorted from the proceedings by the watchdog cop!
Let's face it: if Dowse is reading this blog and the few good articles in the SE about the foolishness of the visions and schemes of Godfrey, he's going to distance himself from the gondola scheme.
He and other men/women who just want to earn a living have probably made the call on their own that Godfrey is a mean, double-dealing little twit.
I guess Pieser needs to make YOUR acquaintance, Mr. Rudi!!! Perhaps Curm could take him to coffee and meet you at Rooster's too? How about a free subscription to the WCForum for Mr. Pieser? Sure would save him a lot of time not having to tend to his own blog, and it would be a friendly thing to do, eh?
At least we KNOW where Pieser stands! THAT is refreshing and when we don't have to guess at one's motives and allegiances we have soooo much more time to get on here and blast away at the goofy mayor and his cronies.
Mother, Baseball and Apple Pie, and Go Neil...if you know the good Representative personally, please encourage him to step forward quickly and get his mayoral campaign in full swing! It would have been good, IMHO, if Neil had been asked for and given a response to the sorry debacle that Brown, Garcia and Godfrey have splattered across the pages of our Pulitzer Prize winning newspaper.
Neil could have risen above the slimey fray with a few well-chosen words as M, B, and A.P. has this morning.
Good post, Curm....but do try to take a stance, eh?
One of the most interesting things I find around these train wrecks and dog fights is both of these men seems to be fighting a battle that isn't theirs (seeing how neither of them have yet to file).
When it all comes down to it, it'd be great to see someone win that is there to win, not to fight just to fight as we saw between the council and the administration. Hansen is a smart man if you ask me seeing how he picks his battles and his timing. Good Luck Rep. Hansen
I note that today's editorial stops short of holding the mayor responsible for the mud-flinging by his subordinates. How naive. Nor does the editorial mention the paper's own involvement in the mud-flinging, by publishing the recent diatribes by Geiger and Griffith. Wake up, Mr. Porter! The Brown outburst was not an isolated incident initiated by one individual. This is an organized campaign.
You may not aggree with Mr. Pieser's tactic's, but give him some credit, he most certainly got Dowse's attention. In the long run that may turn out to be the best thing imaginable. Mr. Dowse's response to the e-mail clearly shows he doesn't grasp what's going on here. Endorsing even the concept of this inane gondola proposal, on the basis that it may provide enhanced access to Ogden's outdoor recreational amenities. This proposal, no matter which version you look at, destroys many of those amenities, biking, hiking, walking on our renowned foothill trail system, and our beautiful challenging 18 hole golf course, all would be gone. This gondola would go nowhere that can provide anything close to what we currently have. Somebody needs to educate Mr. Dowse, the sooner the better. As for Geiger's response about ecconomic survival, he could be coming from a personal point of view, he has been heard to say that he has spent more time and energy promoting this mayor's vision than he has dooind his job at descente this past year. Note there has already been an unofficial local boycot of descente products,locally, since bobby appeared on the scene. If Geiger's refering to the city's ecconomic survival, he needs to look at Godfrey's foolish attempts at being a developer, and undertaking projects no developer would assume the risk for. A 37 million dollar ego driven edifice, with no studies or outside data justifying it's potential survival.
What I found most interesting in the article about Mr. Pieser's proposed boycott (which I oppose, by the way) was the statement by Mr. Pieser attributed to Mr Dowse that he "endorses the concept of the gondola proposal to provide enhanced access to Ogden's outdoor recreation amenities." The only part of the "gondola concept" that I can think of that would "provide enhanced access" would be one that runs from Mt Ogden park somewhere to a resort in Malan's Basin. A gondola from 23rd and Wall to WSU will not provide enhanced access to Ogden's outdoor rec amenities, as anyone can walk, bike, drive or take a bus to the many trailheads on the east bench right now. Lastly selling off a major chunk of those amenities themselves to CP so he can build houses and leave a trail or two through his housing complex will not provide enhanced access to Ogden's outdoor rec amenities. It would actually result in diminished access, not enhanced access.
With regard to Curm's opinions: I disagree totally.
With regard to David Pieser's idea to hit these jerks where it hurts: Great idea. Where do I sign up?
As many of you have heard, Rep. Neil Hansen's son (which is me) will be his campaign manager in getting this campaign committee together. Observer 1 and those around. If I could get you to call me at 866-5122 at any hour, please do so in wanting to help out in Neil Hansen's mayoral race. This will give us a head-start on many engagments that are here to forecome. We are in this to win and not to fight!! Thanks Trevor
I must say I'm sorry for the spelling errors in my last posting. Please forgive me, in the future I will pay more attention to this keyboard. I have a question for all of you, as well as the Standard Examiner's editorial staff. How in hell can you put Jesse Garcia into this mud fling? He has been nothing but the target of an orchestrated attack by the mayorial cabal. Jesse has not been a participant in this, in fact if you look at the timing of this you must note that most of these assaults have been delivered while Jesse has been out of town. The Standard and the rest of you need to concider this, and apologize to him, publicly.
Dear Dan
Your speculation is wrong again.
I knew that Scott Brown was going to address the council. I did not know what he was going to say.
He asked me to not tell the Mayor or Dave Harmer as they would have prevented him from doing so.
His actions were his alone and were the product of 3 days of attacking Dave Harmer by members of the City Coucil in the SE.
Garcia, Wicks and Jeske were demanding more ethics and open government and Scott Brown decided to openly discuss their ethics and openly share their sttements behind closed doors.
All 7 of the members of the council are aware that what he said was true.
Scott Brown did not say that Doreen Jeske was not smart. He shared with he public that Jesse had said that Dorren was not smart.
Scott Brown did not say that he did not want Mormon Missionaries in downtown Ogden. Amy Wicks said that. His point was that discrimination is a real posibility with the council.
It may not have been a good move to go public with the inside comments of members of the council but it was a demonstration of OPEN MEETINGS.
ANON
Regarding the Pieser boycott article:
First of all, I do know Dave Pieser and I can assure you, Rudi, that he reads this blog.
Second, Dave has told me that he had no intention of making his email to Dowse public. The story doesn't say how the Standard-Examiner obtained a copy of the email, but it sounds like Dowse must have forwarded it to someone like the mayor or one of the Geigers, who passed it on to the paper. So if it's bad publicity we want to avoid, then Dowse and the Standard-Examiner and the unnamed intermediary should take a share of the blame.
Third, it's important to realize that most outdoor equipment companies promote themselves to their customers as being environmentally responsible. Amer is no exception: Its web site says it follows the "principles of sustainable development" and seeks to "reduce the environmental impact" of its operations. When a company is doing things that are contrary to its stated policies, I think it's entirely appropriate to point this out, privately, to its executives. If the behavior persists, then it's entirely appropriate to bring this to the attention of customers who prefer to support businesses that are socially and environmentally responsible.
What I'm not so clear on is where Amer actually stands on the Peterson project. Dowse has said favorable things about the gondola, but it wasn't clear which gondola he was talking about, much less whether he supports the Peterson foothill land grab. Nor was it totally clear whether he was speaking as an individual or on behalf of his company (though I think we can assume the latter, Curm's interpretation notwithstanding). What I do know is that the Lift Ogden folks have tried to spin Dowse's public statements to imply that Amer does support the whole Peterson scheme. If that spin is inaccurate, then I think it's time for Dowse to step forward and clarify his position. If the spin is accurate, then Amer needs to accept any negative publicity that might result.
I hasten to add that the Sierra Club is not threatening any sort of boycott of Amer.
ANON,
What, exactly, about my speculation was wrong? I never claimed that anyone knew, specifically, what Brown was going to say to the Council last Tuesday night. However it's quite clear that the recent attacks on Garcia, Wicks, and Jeske have not been independent of each other. It's also a simple fact that the mayor is responsible for establishing and enforcing policies on how his subordinates are to behave when acting in their official capacities.
Dan S.,
Methinks, you, Dowse, Rudi and Pieser should meet at a coffee shop and talk!
That may accomplish more for clearing the air and promoting good will than anything else. Thnk about it.
Dan is correct that the communication to Amer was not intended to be public. It was intended to get them to review the facts and to clarify their stance on the golf course sale. I never distributed my email to anyone, it was sent only to the recipient. That is the nature of diplomacy, quiet pressure. It is absolutely counter to the interests of Amer, Descente and to Ogden to have had my letter made public. But it was their call, not mine. Actually, I had invited Dowse to visit and discuss the issues in a first letter before ever mentioning any thought of a boycott and received no reply.
I agree with you Rudi that a boycott may be an extreme way to get their attention and not in the best interest of the community.
I have no idea why they would have made my communication public.
I have no idea why an outdoor recreational equipment company would advocate the selling off of our finest outdoor recreational resource.
That is why I had only discussed the idea with a few local folks who agreed that even the suggestion of it would get their attention. Again, I had never intended to make my discussion of a boycott public.
I also take issue with the term threat. I did not threaten anyone. I only attempted to open discussion on a key local issue and introduce them to some of the local information resources like SGO and WCF.
Corporations can be faceless and unresponsive. It has been shown that they will respond when their image or their bottom line may be at stake.
I own several Salomon products. They make well designed and top quality gear.
Rudi, do not forget that you advocated burning Descente clothing a couple weeks back. You posted a pic of your supposedly Descent snowsuit in the garbage and in flames. That looks to me like an even more violent and attention getting act than my attempt at diplomacy.
Anon,
YOU seem to have a lot of inside knowledge about the inner sanctum. Has the mayor, Brown, Harmer or Patterson been "leaking' tidbits to YOU?
What Brown did was despicable. Godfrey's tsk tsk over his incredibly crude rant certainly showed me that he was not surprised. Godfrey started telling one and all that HE knew nothing about it beforehand....those remarks were a sure signal that he DID know.
He doth protest too much.
It's shameful that Brown has sullied Garcia. Garcia was a gentleman throught the entire sordid affair...and even showed much restraint during his remarks at the meeting's close.
I agree that the SE and the so called administration owe Garcia an apology.
I know Jesse is a public figure and therefore not protected from the slings and arrows of putrid comments and assaults on his character. But, it may be prudent for Garcia to consult an atty (NOT IN OGDEN), to see about 'defamation of character' charges against Brown.
We should consider that this foaming at the mouth of Brown and Ball, and the behind scenes slurs by the sycophants, in and out of the inner circle, are a product of their FEAR! Godfrey and his thugs, (can't you see them standing around the little mafia don flexing their muscles, and opening and shutting their beefy hands inside their leather gloves,) are devising wicked schemes to tear down every good person who dares to do right.
That's why they've chosen Dorrene Jeske as their prime target...then Garcia and Amy.
IF Amy did make a remark about Mormons...so what? I bet the Church won't crumble. But, she seems civumspect in her behavior to me.
Dorrene is doing what she promised her constituents...keeping the light on. Isn't it (almost) amusing that because the leadership of the Council and Jeske are attempting to enact an ETHICS code that the roaches are scurrying around picking at every crumb they can find?
Dorrene Jeske has a wonderful reputation in this town of honesty, INTEGRITY, dignity, selflessness, dedication to youth and is a moral person who would NEVER 'leak' confidential information. If anyone were going to be dampened with a 'leak' it would be Schwebke. Ask HIM if Jeske ever 'leaked' confidential information to him!
This administration is so full of crap all their eyes are brown. Mother, Baseball and Apple Pie said 'shame, shame 'shame' on them.
So true. You moral midgets should point your excrement-stained fingers back at yourselves and one another. That includes the Geigers, Allens, Williams, Cook and the whole stinking bunch in their Amen Choir.
They sing in the Church of Holy Schnitzke led by the High Priests themselves.
Dear Tec,
Just as some have already posted, we are not dealing with above-board and honorable people here. I don't know about Mike Dowse, but he should have responded to your letter.
The 'leaking' (where have we heard that before?) of your email is a bob geiger tactic. The kid just can't help himself, I guess.
Just like that Coohey creep on trial for rape and murder of Jessica Lunsford in FL. His defense claims the guy has a low IQ and can't help himself.....well has anyone seen bobby tracing in his coloring books lately?
I promise you, anyone who's met Scott Brown is not shocked at the allegations of workplace sexual harrassment and porn surfing. He's a tool. Just ask any female employee who's ever worked with him (in confidence). How many did Moulton claim? Three? Where there's smoke, there's fire.
ANON2
Anyone know who this Pieser guy is and what kind of business he represents? Is he an employee or an owner of a business. Maybe we should boycott him and his for being such a numbskull as to suggest that we boycott a super company like Amer, just because it has an opposing view to the gondola than Pieser has. Makes a whole lot of sense, doesn't it.
As for an anti-gondola blog....don't we have one of these already? Aren't we reading and posting on it right now? I'm wondering about this Pieser guys mental facilties; and I'm confident that even those who espouse this blog wonder just where Mr. Pieser is coming from, such as behave this way toward one of America's most darling outdoor/recreational companies that decided to locate here with its 200-300 well paying jobs and then re-creating a blog that's pretty well read and written, even if I don't swallow all that's printed here.
And then there's the Jesse Garcia thing....if he can't run the Council, how the hell can he run the City?
Dear Reader (Bobby)
We would boycott Amer to stop them from ruining the city by ramming the gondola. If that's not worth a boycott, what is?
Amer moved here because they were paid to do so. It will be years before we have a positive return on that tax money, if ever.
What are you talking about regarding whether someone can "run the city?" The mayor does not run the city. He is the administrative head of the city government. The council sets policy. When you envision somebody "running the city" you must be thinking a dictatorship or Godfreyism.
The most UNETHICAL administration in Ogden's history. (Oh, yes, "History"...we know Ogden has a colorful political past, but this isn't 'colorful'.....what color is putrid?.)...is snarling over an ethics code to reign them in.
Makes perverse sense, doesn't it?
The most UNETHICAL administration in Ogden's history. (Oh, yes, "History"...we know Ogden has a colorful political past, but this isn't 'colorful'.....what color is putrid?.)...is snarling over an ethics code to reign them in.
Makes perverse sense, doesn't it?
Outdoors Recreationist has already responded to the "enhanced access" quote from Dowse. Here are some further thoughts about "access".
Anyone who thinks enhanced access is always a good thing should pause a moment and consider what we'll have if we take this principle to its logical extreme. The epitome of access would be to pave over the entire mountainside so you could visit Mt. Ogden, Malan's Peak, Waterfall Canyon, Taylor Canyon, Hidden Valley, and the rest of your favorite destinations in the comfort of your air conditioned car. Presumably this is not what Mr. Dowse endorses, because it would leave no natural places where people can use his company's products.
So it's a question of balance. We want to be able to get to the mountains quickly, but we want the mountains left in a relatively natural state so we can enjoy them while we're there. Naturally, opinions will differ regarding where the balance is best. Some will argue that people should have more access to Ogden's mountains; others will argue that people already have too much access.
There are no right or wrong opinions on this question, but it might be helpful to see how Ogden stacks up compared to other Western cities in terms of access to nearby mountains. Five years ago, Sunset Magazine named Ogden as having the "best access to the outdoors" in the West. So to Sunset, at least, it isn't clear that Ogden needs even more access.
Sunset focused mainly on Ogden's nonmotorized trails, but those aren't the only form of mountain access. We have three ski resorts that provide lift access to the mountains. We have an extensive network of public roads, many of which go to mountain summits (Francis Peak, Willard Mountain, Powder Mountain, Monte Cristo). We have motorcycle trails to the summits of Lewis Peak and Ben Lomond. There is a vast network of ATV trails stretching northward from the Weber County line, and the Forest Service is working hard to expand this network.
As a result of this ever-expanding access, there's a very real danger that we'll lose many of our opportunities for quiet, dispersed recreation (hiking, horseback riding, backcountry skiing, snowboarding, and snowshoeing). I think it's time, therefore, to decide on some limits to access. Traditionally, at least on federal lands, this is done by designating some areas as Wilderness. While Wilderness certainly restricts commercialization of the lands so designated, it is entirely compatible with continued economic growth of the nearby cities--and arguably can help promote that growth by guaranteeing the preservation of the values and opportunities that residents enjoy.
Look at Utah's other large and medium-sized cities. There are designated Wilderness areas immediately adjacent to Salt Lake City, Orem, Logan, Brigham City, and even St. George. Ogden is by far the largest city in Utah that isn't within 25 miles of a Wilderness area. Or look at the Colorado ski resort towns that the Lift Ogdenites so often name: Aspen, Vail, and Telluride are all surrounded by federally designated Wilderness. Most of these Wilderness areas are vastly larger than what we could ever designate here.
Mr. Peterson's proposed resort would be on private land, but his proposal includes access roads (unpaved), ski trails, and presumably lifts and snowmaking equipment that would extend onto the adjacent public land. In other words, he's proposing to commercialize a sizable chunk of the west side of Mt. Ogden, including Taylor and Strong's Canyons. He's also, of course, proposing to privatize and develop several hundred acres of our publicly owned foothills. While such a project would result in increased "access", it would significantly diminish the opportunities for quiet, dispersed recreation in Ogden's mountains. I honestly don't see why a company like Amer would support such a proposal.
Reader
For one, I already have sung the praises of Amer and Have stated that I own several pieces of their equipment. They are a quality company and I welcomed them to Ogden. Read my post.
You must have missed the part where I said that I had only DISCUSSED a boycott with a very few individuals.
I had no intention of actively pursuing it pending additional dialogue with Mr Dowse.
It was he who released my email to Geiger most likely, who in turn released it to the paper for whatever reason escapes me. I was totally in shock when Scott Schwebke called me for comment. I did not release this to the paper.
And again, the lumping of one's position as "anti-gondola" as in the headline is a gross over-simplification of the whole issue.
My stand is firmly AGAINST selling Mt Ogden Golf Course under ANY conditions. PERIOD
The town gondola idea, if linked to selling the golf course is DOA.
As for the mountain gondola/Malan's development, I am squarely on the side of Peterson continuing his exploration as long as we are not held hostage any longer by the town gondola/golf course sale idea.
REPEAT I support Chris Peterson acquiring a small acreage as a base to his mountian operation IF he can swing it. His mountain resort and gondola access FROM THE FOOTHILL BASE will still offer the exact same attraction without an excruciating gondola ride over central Ogden.
Let's put Ogden back on track by forgetting the extremely divisive golf course sale and open the discussion to what Mr. Peterson can do for Ogden. He still seems to have some desire. Let's bring him to the table. It is time for Ogden to call the shots and host him, instead of us going to his presentations.
Got a problem with all that,
Reader
This Dowse fellow aint the big dude at this big company because he is dumb.
My guess is that when he gets settled in, gets the lay of the land and sees how decisive this urban gondola/Peterson land grab idear has become to the citizens of Ogden that he will become neutral on the whole discussion.
I agree with Curmudgeon and others here that what Dowse has been quoted so far as saying has been pretty innoculous.
It would be pretty foolish of him to come into town siding with us anti Gondolistas now, wouldn't it? Of course he is going to be saying nice things to and about the Godfreyites. After all, they are in power! And most of all they are in the loop that is giving his company $12 million dollars in incentives. What's not to be friendly with the mayor and his gang about?
The boycott idea sounds great and appeals to the side of me that would like to see the Mayor tarred and feathered in front of the city building at noon on saturday. However, and fortunately, we live in a system where that is not allowed.
The boycott is allowed in our society, but it seems like a piss ant attacking a pit bull. Never a good idea to threaten a person you want to educate with something that couldn't possibly hurt them in any way.
I would suggest a better way would be for someone of sound mind, like our Mr. Curmudgeon presumably is, could write Mr. Dowse a smooth well thought out explanation of just what is going on in Ogden these days vis-a-vis the gondola, Land grap proposal, Rec Center, etc.
Any one with an ounce of PR savvy will know what to do and how to position their company. Like I said, these guys are very bright business people, unlike some other empty suits we are all to familiar with in these parts.
Dear Oz
Well said.
I believe that Mr Dowse reads this blog or has visited it.
Most companies that have looked into Ogden as a potential site for location, look closely at where they are investing. They google Ogden and Weber County and find this site.
When Amer was trying to choose between Portland, SLC and Ogden one of the positives for Ogden VS SLC was that the peope he met in SLC talked very poorly of Ogden while people in Ogden did not do so toward SLC.
Mr Dowes, found Ogden people that he worked with to be civil and decent and honest people.
ANON
I agree too, that Mike Dowse has only expressed soft and broadly general support for the "concept of the gondola" whatever that means. I was making an attemopt to pin him down at least in private and...
believe it or not, persuade the mayor to quietly let this sleeping dog lie. I have stated time and again, just like Curm and others that the only thing that has us choking is the golf course sale. All other elements of the Godfrey/Peterson initiatives have some merit and are worthy of discussion.
Most here would not have it but I would give Matt a chance to redeem.
"I believe that Mr Dowse reads this blog or has visited it."
Our web stats software confirms that.
Amer execs have repeatdly checked our Weber County Forum recently.
Hopefully, they now understand Boss Godfrey's "Dark side," as a reult of their belated "due diligence."
Interestingly, we've also been read here by OTHER sports companies recently, too.
We won't name names... but we have wondered whether some of these companies were competitors...
or acquistion targets.
Amer is just the kind of company we want to locate in our town.
We welcome them here with a rolled out red carpet.
And if Mr. Dowse, Curmudgeon and others would like to meet sometime to discuss the political situation in full...
Your Blogmeister will be buying all the refreshments, thanks to the massive revenue we now generate at WCF through our advertisers' adclicks.
Tech, I agree fully, including most here will not offer Little Matty a shot at redemtion. He does not deserve one. The way he has conducted himself and his office should be a disgrace to all public servants. Morale within the city's employ has never been lower. Sure the position of mayor has been the brunt of a few jokes in the past, but keep in mind, no mayor has had the broader powers of administration prior to this guy. We have had professional city managers responsible for day to day operations. Perhaps his biggest shortcoming (no pun intended) Would be his imaturity, coupled with the fact he cannot learn the easiest principle of leadership. You cannot command respect through bullying and intimidation, you cannot command respect at all. It must be earned and given. This guy has done enough damage and must go, before he can do any more.
Before everyone gets too mellow about Amer Sports coming to town just remember a couple of things.
According to Schwebke's column of January 14, 2007 Governor Huntsman's Office of Economic Development has authorized tax-rebate incentives totaling $7.9 million for the company over 10 years.
That $7.9 million is never going into Utah taxpayers' pockets where it should go during the normal course of business...
So I for one am not too mellow about that nor naming the $20 plus million rec center building Salomon whatever without some sort of compensation.
The question I have is whether Amer Sports will be around for 10 years if there is no gondola???
Speaking of the American Can building brings up more questions about Ogden City's finances, one of which is the following:
In 2003 Ogden Mayor Godfrey announced that the final link in the financing chain for a $25 million high-tech center in downtown Ogden had been secured by the U.S. Department of Commerce's award of a $2 million grant to Ogden for the purchase of the empty American Can building.
Then in March 2004 the American Can building with 4.8 acres was purchased by Riverside Technology Foundation for $1.8 million which entered into a development and management agreement with American Can LLC.
So what happens to the $2 million grant from the U.S. Department of Commerce which Ogden got to buy American Can? Does it have to be repaid? And the $900,000.00 that the State of Utah gave Ogden in 2003 to help buy the building?
Then there is the question of the city's Business Information Center (BIC) relocating to the American Can complex from Washington Blvd.
Ogden had received a U.S. Department of Commerce grant to refurbish the BIC building. So does that grant have to be reapaid>
And somewhere in the process Ogden received a couple of million for a parking plaza, some of which is supposed to have funneled to the parking garage for the rec center???
Would some one responsible for answers at Ogden City please step up and give some answers to some tantalizing questions about movement of funds.
And now we have the Ogden Community Foundation winding up with the building that was sold in January, 2007 for $3 million even though the Foundation has never filed a tax return because they have never had $25,000 in receipts.
Most tantalizing.
Is bobby the one that drives the little yellow truck?
Curmudgeon,
In your opening post you made a big deal out of threatening a man's business. I already addressed the threat nonsense. I made no such threat and I will gladly show you a full copy of my letter in private. That was one sentence referring to "talk of a boycott". That could be you and I having a beer. My letter dealt mostly with the excruciating detail of the whole Peterson/Gondola mess. It was long and rambling. Much how you write sometimes. I did feel it was getting to a time of critical mass and this plan has to either put-up or shut-up. I, for one, am damn sick of thinking about it but our open space deserves the protection so burning out is not an option. I know I'm not the only one burnt out on it. So maybe this was a desperation move.
I may have been a bit forceful with Mr. Dowse but I will never regret saving the foothill if that can be the result. My talk of boycott may be bluff or real depending on the administrations continued bluffing the community on this golf course sale dependent urban gondola scheme. I had hoped Mr. Dowse would use his close relationship to move things in that direction.
Don't worry Rudi, I don't have nearly the time you do, apparently, to babysit one of these sites, especially one that actually has steady participation. You should know, though, that a Blog is nothing more than a few days of spooging together a slew of graphics and text. Templating software makes for a very polished professional magazine look and feel with a solid administrator's backend. A little Search Engine Optimization and you have a very noisy presence. I wish I had a domain already picked out and reserved but that is evidence of it being at simply talk stage. If I had that domain I would be getting a ton of hits. There is no bad publicity, except if your a recreational equipment manufacturer and you happen to mistakenly put yourself on the less than environmental side of a local issue in your new home headquarters.
Back to a man's business. First of all, AmerSports is a Finnish owned corporation. They made their big money selling cigarettes. They obviouly had a change of heart and evolved to a highly diversified sporting goods manufacturer. The world's largest I think. I would like to know the worldwide breakdown on the location of their manufacturing and what percentage is contract.
They are indeed a corporation which is an entity that is not unlike a government. Boards get elected and officers serve much like a mayor. Amer is publically held. The officers are much like public officials. When they accept huge public subsidy in the form of tax breaks and naming rights to a public recreational facility they become publically responsible for political alliances and stances.(I wonder how much is Energy Solutions paying for the old Delta)
I do absolutely welcome them but their officials must be held accountable.
Sorry, Mike, Nothing personal, just business.
There is a Salomon snowboard deck in my eBay cue.
One thing to remember about Amer Sports is that they are only renting space.
They have not bought a building so they are not leaving lot of capital if and when they do leave.
And Descente is owned by the Japanese and they don't have a lot of capital invested here either.
The principals in this little maneuver are like the players who hit Las Vegas hoping for a Megabucks bonanza with a few bucks lost if they don't.
Ogden taxpayers are the players with the big dough involved.
Looking for a candidate for Ogden City Mayor?
How about this guy?
Sure, he's in Finland right now. But he has over ten years of experience in the Finnish Parliament, and he can write in Klingon. I bet none of the current mayoral candidates can claim that.
Right this is just what we need is another person just like godfrey!!
If Amer wants to support the mayor in his confiscation of our open space then I say let the boycott begin
Reader, where do you get your facts,
Salomon "one of America's most darling outdoor/recreational companies"
from Salomon's history:
Salomon was born in 1947 in the heart of the French Alps and the birthplace of modern alpinism.
So they were born in France and are now owned by the Finns.
As for Delta Center, Energy Solutions is paying 1.3 mil/yr for naming rights. Sure the Salomon Center is not on the scale as the ES arena, but certainly worthy of some compensation.
Just the facts.
Curm, you have not responded. You made it sound like Mike Dowse was running the corner candy store. So sappy. It IS time to take a stand on the golf course sale and damn the niceties. Do you think Godfrey cares about niceties. Write your letter today to these corporations. Obviously they get better results and turn more heads than writing to the SE.
Curm,
you also make a big case of Dowse now being an Ogdenite and has the right to have an opinion and to enter the fray here at WCF. well, duh...
No one has done anything to prevent Dowse or any other Amer representative from participating here. No one has tried to keep them from their opinions. Opinions are quite a different thing than public corporate support for this mess, any stage of it.
Please Curm, I have sat through reading your overly balanced posts for a long time. I admire your level head, but... Yesterdays post bordered on ass licking. Give it a rest.
You revealed yourself to be no more objective than the SE. In fact I thought Schwebkes story was far more balanced and objective than your's. Good feeling, huh. You who have raised the same charges of less-than-objective reporting.
Yesterdays article is a perfect example of the media power to make a story out of nothing and you ran with it. You never made attempt to contact me for comment, Schwebke did. I assume Rudi knew how to reach me. I wrote him recently to discuss just this issue with no response. Dan knows me. Please Curm, get some sources other than the SE.
I still enjoy your posts.
Tec
Stand back from the coffee, keep your hands where we can see them, every thing will be alright.
And please remember, after you wipe the froth from your mouth, that opinions are like asses, everybody has one and theirs is the best.
so what's your point, Lionel
Mono..
So, as nearly as I can decipher (which wasn't much), this Finnish guy is only a larger version of Godfrey.
Can't understand much of what he espouses either.
F### Dowse. Let the boycotting begin. If anyone with a fifth-grade education and a driver's license hops in a vehicle and makes the trip from Wall up 23rd and south to the university campus and thinks putting a gondola over that is a good idea, he/she is a flat-out moron.
I say, let it burn, let it burn, let it burn!
Are you guys really that stupid.
You did get your answer; the president of Amer gave the letter to the paper. He intentionally brought this out into the open to tattle on the person that wrote it and to expose the person that had the gall to express how the whole community feels with regards to the urban gondola and sale of our open space. He publicly wants us to know which side of the fence he’s on with regards to this issue. Amer is not going to change their position on the gondola (and they do mean both gondolas), for 12 million good reasons. When they took that money they took it knowing good and well that they would need to support the hand that was feeding them, even if it means supporting this confiscation of our open space.
If you expect the president of Amer to come forward in order to clarify his views, wake up, this isn’t the first issue that he’s had to side step in his career.
They went public with this letter with the intent of trying to keep anything from happening. They are trying to turn your exposure from that of a darn good threat to an embarrassment. Their tactic will only work if you let it work.
I think a well done YouTube about what is going on here with a good burning of their products at the end would be most excellent! Let’s shoot for 12 million hits.
I take my hat off to you Tec for trying to deal with these people in a civilized way but it’s apparent all they care about is the money; their position on the environment is just talk on their part to convince their consumers that they can relate with where their consumers are coming from. Obviously their position just got proved as BS.
Doesn’t matter if they make good products if they do it in an unethical way, i.e. they use child labor, they ruin people’s life styles in the name of profits or they damage the environment, it doesn’t matter. It’s not the product; it’s how you do it!
Let it burn, let it burn, let it burn!
This is just speculation, but we presume, when you mention "burning," you're referring to this.
The foregoing link displays an electronic image shot by your humble blogmeister when he put a flame to his Descente one-piece "powder suit."
We wholeheartedly support the ongoing local Descente boycott. Burning one of our very favorite ski suits is evidence of that.
As for Amer... the jury is still out for us. Their support for Boss Godfrey's "vision" has been "tepid" so far, as Gentle Curmudgeon has already pointed out. We think Amer is caught in a tight spot. Having already committed to a move to Emerald City, they're just now learning about Godfrey's "dark side," and the sheer improbablitiy of his remaing on the throne past December.
We say we cut them a pass until and unless they begin disrupting our community, as the Descente executives have been doing for almost two years.
Boycott Descente products, we say. If you have a Descente jacket, don't burn it.
Donate it to a homeless person instead.
Elitist rag merchants hate that.
And for those naysayers who believe that a local boycott won't have bottom-line implications...
Just watch Descente in the next year or two.
Skiers tend to be environmentally-oriented; and Descente's corporate stance, as expressed in their willingness to "sacrifice" Emerald City's Crown jewel park, will echo throughout the skier community.
In the not to distant future, Curt and his cretin son will no doubt be relegated to operating a sushi joint in the Descente home town, Osaka, Japan.
When the time comes... don't eat the Unagi. It has the same vile taste, texture and composition as the stuff they've been handing out since mid-summer 2005.
Don't buy the close out sales of Descente goods at the local sporting goods stores.
Make the shops donate the rags to the salvation army or desert industries.
That's where the rags belong!
Tell your local winter sports retailer about the boycott!
descente brands worthy of burning
munsingwear
cutter buck
dunhill
lanvin
nautica
Hiff
Whole Earth
these are all descente brands, don't buy and if you own, donate them to the DI, salvation army or burn them.
lets see the best burn pictures on You Tube
I support the You Tube idea!!
Whoever can...DO IT!
BTW Tec, you done good, kid.
A good start might be a letter writing campain to all major retailers. The facts about the eco and social damage perpetrated by Descente coupled with knowing that there is a boycot that will continue to grow will make for a very difficult sales season for Descente. I think I'll start with informing the skiers that are housed in Park City, you know, the ones that get all the ink.
Nationwide boycotts can and do sometimes start on a very local level and over issue like this. Especially in the interenet age, and especially with a high profile style and chi chi world like skiing and fashion. A lot of it depends on a savy and energetic PRmeister.
However I think it a bit chicken shit to go after the corporate parent for the private involvements of its employees. Although I certainly do not agree with the Geigers and what they are promoting, they have every right to chase whatever dream they want. Unlike the Amer guy speaking in an official corporate capacity, I don't think I hear the Geigers saying they represent Descente - do they?
I do not have a problem with them chasing these particular rainbows, what I do have a bit of heart burn over is their trying to hang the tab on the tax payers and their apparent support of this Peterson land grab deal.
In any event, what they are doing is not an official function of Descente, is it? I know they use their Descente credentials for credibility, but is that company also officially indorsing the gondola? If so, that doesn't seem any more agregious than say an Ogden cop wearing his OPD uniform on the 2nd job he has to have because the mayor is to cheap to pay him a decent wage to risk his life for us on a daily basis.
If Descent is not officially promoting this dumb assed idea, then why punish the company? It seems a little cheezy to hastle a company because they won't hastle your political advesary. Sounds like something Godfrey would do! Beside, I think it very well could be illegal for the Samurai of Osaka to jack up the Geiger boys over what they do on their off time.
If we didn't have people as indefatigable and tenacious in pursuing their cause as Bobby and his Dad, what the hell would we have to get it up over on this blog? If they were lame and stupid and had no fire in the belly for the Gondola we would all be bored stiff with this free for all and have nothing to do all day but sit around and scratch our asses and wind our watches!
The more vigorous public debate there is on the Gondola, the more likely it will be for the best outcome.
Go Bobby! We all love the smell of napalm in the morning!!!
Ozboy,
If you’ve noticed the shear amount of time that the Geiger’s put to the efforts of the Peterson development (day or night) and when during the day that the Geiger’s are on this blog alone you would have to say that they are doing it on company time.
I know people that have written to the parent company to express both their dislike for the activities of their local employees but also to suggest that the company must also be involved by their complacency in not reeling the guys back after it has been mentioned to them that they are suggesting that the company it behind this as well. The company has taken no visible action to stop the actions of these guys. Also the one manager of the overall North American operations (that used to be located in Canada for Descente who I’ve been told is now also in Ogden) must also be aware of the Geiger’s activities.
As such I can only suggest that the company is aware of these guys’ actions and as such has no intentions of disassociating their company name from the actions of the Geiger’s. That said I say that any action taken against Descente is valid for their lack of intervention after being made aware of the actions of their employees.
Well, after all is said and done these Geigers are salesmen. (In the sales world - after all is said and done there is always more said than done!)
If the Samurai feel that the Geigers are moving enough product and meeting schedules and quotas, why should they care what they do when they aint pitching ski masks? ("Geiger" and "Ski Mask" in the same sentence! I swear it wasn't intentional)
The Descente name is getting out there garnering lots of free PR because of the Geiger activities. And yes, there is probably a significant customer base of Descente that likes what the Geigers are doing and are rooting them on. (These people remind me of those totally worthless and unredeamable wretches across the basketball floor yesterday in Sacramento with their ugly purple and gold spanglies and smirky smiles)
Some of those exposed to the Geiger experience are folks that buy a whole lot more ski gear than most of us do! So taking the emotion out of it, I don't see a reason for Descente to give a squat one way or the other about what the Giegers are doing - unless it starts yanking yen out of their parka pockets.
Salesmen traditionally are not on time clocks. The Geigers performance is not measured by the hours they sit at a desk or online with the WCF, but on the amount of cash flow they create and send to their Nipponese masters in the land of the Rising Sun. By any measure we can apply here they must be doing a pretty bang up job of it, especially considering the complaints you suggest the honchos at headquarters are getting from the peanut gallery.
If a boycott were to gain traction in the skiing world, I would guess the Osaka boys in the narrow ties and green eye visors would be in Ogden pretty quickly suggesting changes in operational strategy. Our Nipponese brothers usually keep a pretty tight leash on the cash flow, and they are for sure never emotional about amusement park rides that they don't own. I doubt if this whole gondola brohaha is any more than a minor blip on the screens in Osaka.
I think one thing some people in our resistance movement keeps forgetting is that almost all of these people in the Godfreyite/Gondolista movement, as well as these bigger corporate executives, are very well neurally endowed folks. Their mommas didn't raise no dummies. Foolish dream chasers maybe, but dumb dumbs no.
Being a foolish dream chaser doesn't necessarily make you a bad guy in my book. I have chased many a dream in my time, so on at least some small level I empathize with these guys.
These bigger corporate executives especially are not going to get caught riding a pig in the Kentucky Derby! Just because they are not joining our choir of condemnation does not mean that they are ill informed about the truth of the most current Emerald City fiasco.
Once this evil urban gondola/Peterson land grab beast has a stake driven through its heart, I think we all just might get to like these Geiger folks and be proud of what they contribute to the land of Oz. After all, we all do have the same goal for a better Emerald City.
Hasn't Curt told us many times that he talked the Japanese owners into moving from CO to Ogden for the low rents and the gondola! That Ogden will be the ski/outdoor hub of the country?
Surely, Papasan didn't agree to move Curt and his kid back home because of cheap rent.
Wonder if the Japanese are enjoying the 'global warming' Malan's has experienced this year? How many warm gloves did Curt sell this year?
Ozboy,
That was the most rambling go nowhere piece of blog nothing I’ve seen you write in a long time.
You can like these Geigers all you like, but the reality is a whole lot different than what you say about these guys: they have no ethics in how they have tried to promote this project, they lack an ability to truly grasp the financial or social cost to the community of this project and their unthought out willingness to gamble with our city's money on something that frankly has a snowball’s chance in a global warming world of working is inexcusable.
These guys are obviously salesmen, they are not managers that work with balance sheets or have bottom line responsibilities, other wise they would have reached the same conclusion as those of us that do have those types of responsibilities.
You understand that their motive is simply so they can have their current jobs in the city where they want to live. Their not happy with Ogden as it is transforming (and it is moving in the right directions regardless of what they say or what the mayor tries to take credit for), they want it to resemble So. California or a high end ski resort town where there are two types of people, the pretty people and the working people. They could give a darn who they hurt to accomplish that goal or how much city money they cause to be spent to protect their position. Their plan will just bury this city for the next 20 years if someone doesn’t stop them and the administration.
I have no respect for people that think like that or for people that don't think but just support something because it sounds cool and I have no respect for companies that think like that either. In this case they are one the same. So….
Let it burn, let it burn, let it burn.
Tec:
You wrote:
Curm, you have not responded. You made it sound like Mike Dowse was running the corner candy store. So sappy. It IS time to take a stand on the golf course sale and damn the niceties.
Been in Moab, introducing Mrs. Curmudgeon to the slickrock. Back now and just found your messages. Tec, I've posted here often against the gondola/gondola Peterson real estate speculation scheme so beloved of our mayor. Many times. We are on the same side on the issues, Tec. We are disagreeing about tactics, that's all.
I hope Amer's move to Ogden is a hands down indisputable success, so much so that other companies in the same business note its success and arrive on its heels to take advantage of what a flatland-gondola-less Ogden offers, which seems to me to be a lot. But then, I'm biased. Unlike the Mayor and his associates who seem to enjoy running Ogden down so often [see Mr. Patterson's comments lately on what downtown Ogden is like with St. Anne's Homeless shelter only blocks away], I think Ogden is a good place to live, to work, and to play. I want to, at a minimum, keep it that way, and if possible, to make it better on all three counts.
My comments were based exclusively on the newspaper article. I had then no knowledge of how the boycott idea was raised with Amer or who made it public, etc.
As for tactics: one of the things labor leaders had to learn [the hard way] is never, but never to call a strike or job action that is likely to fail, that has a very low probability of success. When you do that, you do not demonstrate the strength of your position [whatever it might be] but rather the reverse.
What might the best tactics for flatland gondola and public land sale opponents be? Fair question. From my POV, the best tactics at the moment are these: (a) to work to elect Council members this Fall who understand the Council's important oversight function in our strong mayor form of government, Council members who will, in the public interest, approach any and all Administration proposals --- from any Mayor, Godfrey or a successor to replace him -- on any and all matters with a slightly skeptical and always critical eye, and sign on to support only those which have stood up under vigorous and detailed examination. [Note: to detailed and vigorous examination , I said... not a Lift Ogden Amen Chorus media blitz and public relations campaign.]
And (b) try to arrange that Ogden get new executive leadership in November as well. We accomplish those two things, and I don't think we'll be hearing much of the flatland-gondola Peterson Proposal [whatever it might be at the moment, neither Peterson nor the Mayor seem to be saying] for the next four years. At least.
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