By Curmudgeon
Very interesting piece in the Salt Lake Tribune this morning by Ms. Moulton.
Here are the opening graphs:
OGDEN - A piece of land that hugs the Ogden River in the heart of the city's redevelopment area has triggered something of a bidding war.And from a bit further down in the story:
And a lawsuit.
A limited partnership involving Gadi Leshem, a California businessman who has been investing heavily in downtown Ogden real estate the past two years, filed suit May 30 against Raymond and Mary Jensen.
The 2nd District Court lawsuit claims the Jensens refused to follow through on the $310,000 sale of a parcel that is nearly an acre in size.
But Raymond Jensen says that is not true. On Friday, he countersued.
Leshem's representatives, he says, did not close on the property April 30, as provided by the contract.
"I had already closed but they never showed," Jensen said. "They broke their contract."
So Jensen agreed to sell the property at 1803 Grant Ave. to another buyer for even more money.
That sale was held up when Leshem's partnership filed a claim of interest on the Jensens' title recorded with Weber County, a move the Jensens are fighting.
The property is in a prime spot in the 60-acre redevelopment area known as the Ogden River Project, where the city hopes to attract new boutiques, town houses and restaurants.
Raymond Jensen says Leshem first showed interest in his property - and trumped a slightly lower offer - in February, the same day Jensen told Ogden's community development manager, Bill Wright, that he planned to sell the parcel to a Park City developer that night.Two points possibly worth mulling:
"I told the city," Jensen said, "and the next thing I knew, my [real estate] agent had an offer from Leshem."
Wright said Monday that his recollection is fuzzy, but he does not remember telling Leshem that Jensen was poised to sell his property.
(a) If Mr. Jensen's account is correct, it could be inferred that the Godfrey administration, or at least officials within it, see their role as notifying Administration cronies when a parcel they are interested in is about to be sold to someone else so they can cover the high bid to date. Now, this might not be an ethical problem if they provided the same service to non-cronies about properties their cronies have bid on so the non-cronies could top the current high offer if they wanted to. But in the Bootjack affair, a higher offer for city land by a non-Godfrey crony seems to have been passed over in order to sell city land to a Godfrey crony at a lower price. Imagine that.
(b) If Mr. Jensen's account is accurate [and I realize the matter is being contested in court and his account is disputed], but if his account is accurate, we can only conclude that Mr. Jensen actually tried to sell land that he knew a Godfrey crony wanted to a non-Godfrey approved buyer? What was he thinking? Didn't he get the memo?
Life --- and business --- in Matthew Godfrey's Ogden.
59 comments:
The Producer is not going to pay the 11 million to the state of Cal. but has all kind of money to invest in ogden, Boy where can I go to circumvent the law and come out smelling like a rose. I guess only here in godfrey land. Why doesn't the public sit up and take notice of all this neat and cool vision which is none other than stealing from people. Oh I forget, mine is the highest integrity in the room.
See I told you...
We need to remember that Mr. Leshem has been charged with a crime in California, he has not been convicted, nor has a trial even begun. At this point, he is entitled to the same presumption of innocence we all would expect and in fact should insist on having for ourselves if we were charged with criminal conduct.
Mr. Jensen's implication... that Godfrey administration people were running interference for Mr. Leshem's Ogden real estate acquisition plans... would be as valid a concern [if true] if Mr. Leshem had not been charged with a crime at all.
Assuming guilt in criminal matters always makes me nervous. It's generally not a good idea. Ever. Or so it seems to me.
This SLTrib article serves to remind of what is typically missing from SE reporting - probing questions. Like asking Wright if he did in fact contact Lesham to inform him of the impending sale.
There is one item of information that I'd liked to have seen included in Ms. Moulton's article:
The name of the limited partnership which she mentions.
Word on the street is that the partnership is composed of a very familiar cast of characters.
"Assuming guilt in criminal matters always makes me nervous. It's generally not a good idea. Ever. Or so it seems to me."
That's tellin' 'em, Curm.
But didn't your mommy warn you way back in Brooklyn, the one single time you got in trouble in your young pre-history professor life, what mommies always tell their beloved sons?
"If you weren't doing anything wrong; the authorities wouldn't be after you!"
There's nothing at all wrong with a mayor who controls neighborhoods, with the help of his special friends in the private sector.
I find it very hard to believe that this whole case seems to turn on the question of whether this Sopranos Character Gadi showed up at the closing.
Either he did or he didn't.
Real estate "closings" aren't that tough.
A common feature in the failure of such closings of course occurs when the buyer (Gadi's partnership, for example,) Doesn't have the "juice" to put the purchase money into escrow by the date set for the closing.
This would seem to be a case for summary judgment disposition at Cross-defendant Jenson's earliest opportunity, once the cross-complaint and answers procedural process is completed.
Boy, Curm, I sure hope you're the jury foreman at my trial!!
You'd be giving the jury that good old "yes, but...let's look at it THIS way..." til they exonerated me just to get home in time for Christmas.
carl...what have you been indicted for?
good luck at your trial
carl:
Well, look at it this way. If you were wrongly charged with a crime, how'd you feel about a jury full of people who were saying to themselves as they were sworn in "f Carl didn't do anything criminal, why did the police arrest him?"
The presumption of innocence does not mean if you are on a jury you have to keep finding nit-picky reasons not to convict. Nor does it mean that any alternative theory of the crime has to be accepted ["It was little green men in a space ship who robbed the bank, not me!"]. All it means is that as a case begins, the charged is presumed to be innocent and the prosecutor has to make the case against him beyond a reasonable doubt.
Perfect arrangement? Hell no. But I can't think of a better one. And so unless Mr. Lesham is found guilty, it's wrong to assume he is. That's all. [As I said, I want the presumption of innocence working for me in case I am falsely accused of a crime someday, which means I've got to extend it to Mr. Leshem too. Sauce for the goose kind of thing. ]
And before you ask, no, I've never been charged with a crime. So far. I came close to criminal conduct once: I almost voted for a Republican. Definitely a criminal act so far as I'm concerned. But fortunately I came to my senses and returned to the path of Truth, Justice and the American Way in time.
I like the contrast between the Trib, and the questions they ask, and the SE, and the questions they don't. And I like the fact the Trib points out that Gadi is under indictment, which while not the same as conviction, is an interesting point I suspect the SE would have omitted.
As far as Don Porter's response on yesterday's thread, what a piece of work. The guy says he doesn't print names, on the same day he prints another letter from Curt Gieger that rebuts someone else by name. And he says he finds the gondola letters boring and all the same, on the same day he prints another long, vacuous letter from another Geiger saying the same old things.
So he prints all the ink the Geigers want, but is bored with letters with opposing arguments (often sending them to the web-only edition), and only the Geigers are allowed to comment on others by name.
I especially like the part where he said he isn't biased. I guess it's so, if he says so. Like I said. He's clearly biased, but doesn't care. He doesn't have to.
As far as you people going gaga over his response, I can understand. People act that way around celebrities.
Danny:
Porter didn't say he was bored only by anti-gondola letters. He said he banned the entire topic, pro and con, for a time. I think that was unwise, but he applied it to both sides.
The SE has printed many letters opposing the gondola and Peterson plan, as it has published many favoring it. Ditto with op ed pieces. Geiger's piece, recall, was in answer to a long piece opposing sale of the public lands to Peterson to further Godfrey's gondola obsession. It would be as wrong for the SE to print only anti Godfrey/Peterson stuff as it would be for the SE to print only pro Godfrey/Peterson stuff.
I've criticized SE reporters in the past for not doing follow up questions well, but gotta tell ya, right at the moment, I'm glad to have two reporters [Schwebke and Moulton] from two dailys [SE and SLTrib] tracking down Ogden stories, and doing it pretty well.
I'm happy to jump on the SE when it muffs something [and I think Mr. Porter muffed it with his gondola topic ban a while ago, and said so at the time], but seems to me a lot of the criticism of the SE at times, like yours, is not justified.
I think Mr. Porter would be, will be, amused by your calling him a celebrity.
I was going to register as a Democrat once, til the registrar found out my folks were married.
In keeping with the little matty,geiger method of only dealing in hypotheticals(never fact) what if,Gadi is found guilty and the illgained money is found to be invested heavily in Ogden City RDA property? Could the state of California end up the proud owners of little matty's personal monopoly board(rda)?
Attending the CC meeting tonight, I was blown away by the way someone had a blank stare on their face as a constituent proposed a suggestion, not by just one constituent but by two. The first time this council member was notified of incorrect protocol for city ordinances, a face of unfilled (as if confused on how to fix it) became occupied (just like a elementary school teacher would). The second time was when a businessman proposed his development plan, and this council member was more worried about understanding how long 95 feet is. When someone doesn’t know that 12 inches times 95 equals 95 feet, I become worried that SHE, yes SHE as in Susan Van Hooter. And I heard that she has been recruited by Mike Vause and Mary Hall……..((ossified carcasses) dumb shits)………..Well from that pick…I just learned a lot about their characters.
How shallow eh?! The poor lady doesn’t even have any credibility when it comes to playing in politics because if she doesn’t understand her position now as a council member, I think we should just let her stay on the playground.
We don’t need another person in office that doesn’t understand the rules or the game.
Ah WTF do I know?
and if you don't want to believe me, go listen to the recording of tonights council meeting.
Saved, I think I understand what being a Democrat is supposed to represent,though it's becoming harder to tell, but my experience over at least the last 2 decades affirms that I know what being a Republican represents,dishonest, greedy,crooked,self rightous bastards that worship themselves and dollars more than morality and their fellow human beings. Aren't you proud to be part of the GOP?
WTF (cute), I believe Susan Van Houser is a little too old to be enlisted, I also didn't know that Mr. Vause and Mrs. Hall were part time recruiters. What branch of the service do they work for? The Navy?
I thought I heard it all till I listen to the recording of tonights cc meeting, boy this is the best they can come up with!
I am proud to be the friend and, on a limited basis, partner of Gadi's. You all will get to know that not only is he a stand up man, but he is also a brilliant planner, business man, and artist. We have had problems in the State of Califonia in the past with one of it's prime agencies, and the chicanery and politically inspired methods of doing business has made the State a hard place to do business. But Gadi built a company from scratch that employs hundreds of people, and not one of them will say a bad thing about their CEO. I only do work with him on our burgeoning film company, and it has been his energy and planning that has helped me to make Bizazz successful. He is definitely innocent, not guilty, and soon enough you will know how beneficial his investment of time and capital will be foR your City. By the way, I am looking for a house ... any ideas?
Yea I understand that saint anne shelter is going up for sale soon, does come with good food and pleasent company, and a real nice kitchen facilities. I think that you could pick it up for around a cool million unless the mayor burns it down first...
yep better get in line. there are some in front of you allready. and you would not want to miss out on this deal of the century.
Just let the Mayor and the Chief Senator have all of Ogden City property, so they can give it to their business buddies.
After all we live in a Republic, not a Democracy
ya we need less government
Mr. Producer and Curmudgeon
I agree with you both on the innocent until proven guilty thing, but here in the real world their are also some strong mitigating factors.
We have the old "birds of a feather" doctrine. We also have Godfrey with his well known arrogant, abusive, self dealing and in a lot of peoples mind's criminal modus operandi, and we also have his buddy Gadi, who is scarfing up on what appears to be inside deals only available to FOM's, and who is accused of arrogant, abusing self dealing and criminal charges by the State of California. Like I said, birds of a feather.
The other real world argument against both your positions is - the DA's office in Los Angeles has literally thousands of cases to pick from in deciding what to prosecute and what not to. They are beauracrats, and they do heavy duty vetting inorder to go with cases they can win. In their world wins are everything. In other words they are very bright competitive attorneys whose future careers depend on not losing cases. They very seldom do lose either. They certainly don't willy nilly just accuse some dude like Gadi of swindling $11 million bucks without some strong evidence that he did! Those ambitious LA DA's don't screw around lightly with some dude like Gadi that can come back at them with a virtual arsenal of high priced, high power attorneys!
Where there is smoke there is fire.
WTF:
You wrote: And I heard that she has been recruited by Mike Vause and Mary Hall……..((ossified carcasses) dumb shits)………
Ah, what a class act! I don't see how anyone could fail to be convinced by the cogency of your argument, your skillful marshaling of evidence to support your conclusions, the inexorable logic of your presentation.
What's next, from you I wonder? Blowing away the opposition by announcing that Rudi is a "poo poo head?"
Sigh....
Producer:
You wrote:
I am proud to be the friend... of Gadi's.
Standing by your friends when they are in trouble is a fine quality, and much to be admired. [No snark there. I meant that.] But the testimony of close friends in these matters is hardly disinterested commentary. To you, I'd say the same as I said above to others: we need now to await the outcome of the judicial proceedings. We can no more accept your blanket aquittal of your friend on its face than we can accept the indictment as proving the case.
You wrote:
You all will get to know that... he is also a brilliant planner, business man, and artist.
Rupert, he may be all of those things and still be guilty. Nothing precludes a criminal from being a brilliant planner, businessman and artist.
You wrote:
We have had problems in the State of Califonia ... with ... chicanery and politically inspired methods of doing business [that] has made the State a hard place to do business.
I don't doubt it. You elected a Republican governor. Of course your having trouble with chicanery and politically inspired methods of doing business. We elected a Republican mayor and are having the same problems. Does the sun rise in the east?
But Gadi built a company from scratch that employs hundreds of people, and not one of them will say a bad thing about their CEO.
Two points: Jack Abrahmov built a company from scratch too, and his employees said nice things about him as well. Only now some of them are saying those nice things only on visiting days in orange jump suits.
I'm not suggesting Mr. Leshem is corrupt by bringing Abrahmov in here, only that the building of a company is, again, no indication necessarily that the builder is honest. Your point about Mr. Leshem's having built a successful company is irrelevent to the question of his guilt or innocence of the charges brought against him.
You wrote:
He is definitely innocent, not guilty.
Again, hardly disinterested testimony.
You wrote: , and soon enough you will know how beneficial his investment of time and capital will be foR your City.
Possibly. Possibly not. Time will tell.
You wrote: By the way, I am looking for a house ... any ideas?
Only this: be sure you buy it through an Administration-approved realtor and from and Administration-approved seller, or you may run into all kinds of last minute problems.
June 27, 2007 12:20 AM
One more thing,WTF & HA,(GEIGERS)? Last nights Council recording is not yet up, probably latter today or tomorrow. Did you take your own little sneaky spy vs. spy recorder to the meeting? Sorry I don't trust your personnal observations, based on two glances during an hour and a half meeting, but I will note that, during Godfrey's administrative comment period he's rarely gone without documenting at least 1 falsehood.
There was nothing better to look at in that meeting other than the person that is on suspicion of a mayoral candidate. However, she is so levity in her position now, she's like watching a person in the airport for the first time...(to and fro stop and go.....what the hell am I doing?)
Besides, .....ah nevermind....
WTF:
From your recent post:
"she is so levity in her position now"
I've sent it off to translators who are familiar with many locale variants of standard English, and as soon as they get back to me and can give me some idea of what the devil that might mean, I'll get back to you. For now, I'll just suggest that instead of denigrating teachers, perhaps you should have spent a little more time in their classrooms.
Oh Curm and Ozboy,
THANK you for two priceless moments of levity!
Is that correct usage, Curm?
Ozboy, your wit is always 100 %.
Producer...if that is really you...did YOU notice that your name is misspelled? Hmmmm??
Curm if WFT is Curt Geiger, we must concider the fact that in his bio on Envision Ogden's website, he graduated from Bonneville High School. This makes him qualified to be an expert at, transit,ecconmic developement, housing and zoning, higher education, recreation (indoor and outdoor),crime, brown nosing, lying, government and the perpetration of unmitigated audacity. All this and more, at this very moment he is involed in a super secret plot that combines alchemy with a very subtle form of a public amnesia inducing verbiage, in an effort to make the good humble citizens of Ogden forget the last seven years,in order to get the evil doer,chucky cheeze impersonator re-elected. At this point we must also include the fact that, he taught his son to do fractions and express his arguments by carrying them out to the tenth decimal. Truely a master in his own mind. I wonder what the source of his great powers may be.
Curm!
My apologies, dear sir!
I credited Ozboy with your post ending '...."Rudi is a poo-poo head?"
In rereading, I realize both those bon mots belong to you!!
I attempted to read them aloud to my bed-ridden husband (knee surgery), and had a heck of time getting thru them as I was laffing so much.
Thanx for a deliteful way to start the morning.
Bill C...you gave us a chuckle also.
Curt was one of my husband's students....Base had no idea he had graduated such an erudite fellow!
if wtf is really CG he must be hittin' the sauce. He sounds like the guy down at the end of the bar grumbling about all the lost opportunities and love in his sordid life.
Maybe his wiser Japanese handlers told him to button up, though he can't help himself so this is what we get.
Curt, I think you're needed at the office to shuffle some papers or fold longjohns.
On a lighter note, the rummor circulating round the muninciple building is true. It happened during one of envision Ogden's PUBLIC TORTURE training exercises. While being waterboarded, Christy, the mayors #1 personal go-for and part time call screener for the no live on-air questions, mayors call-in show, revealed that hidden away in the upper right-hand drawer of the Mayor's desk, little pinnoccio Godfrey keeps his most cherrished recently received keepsake. A momento from his publicly funded European adventure with Chris(Wayne) Peterson. A plastic battery operated floating Gondola that plays "los sol a mia" while he gently strokes the plastic gondolier's backside. Let it be known, Christy is one tough cookie and did not crack easy, after all, she has been subjected to pinnoccio's pig-like male chauvinism for quite some time, and never defended the female employees during the Scott Brown harrasment,porno affairs. One tough cookie.
Well, as a poster here under a pseudonym, I wouldn't want to assume that WTF is Mr. Geiger [either of them] or anyone else specifically. No way to know for sure, and I figure we ought to respect his or her desire to be known by pseudonym. It's another of those sauce for the goose/sauce for the gander kind of things. And in the end, what matters is what the poster says [is it convincing or not?], not who said it.
Earlier in this thread (and yesterday) I noted that had the SE printed an article on the river property lawsuit, they would probably have omitted reference to Gadi's accused criminality.
In today's SE article, it said,
Leshem faces felony insurance fraud charges in California.
According to the California Department of Insurance, between 2001 and 2005, Leshem and other Cover-All executives saved money on insurance premiums by underreporting the number of company employees to the state insurance fund.
He has pleaded not guilty to the charges.
My apologies go to Scott Schwebke. You did a good job.
On an earlier post I accidently omitted a word, I never should have overlooked the omittion but with pinnoccio's official announcement I am compelled to correct my previous post. It is relavent given the timing of such a momentous occasion. Should have read,"Scott Brown sexual hrrasment, porno affairs." Need I remind anyone that pinnoccio's adninistration tried real hard to cover them up.
lev·i·ty (lěv'ĭ-tē) Pronunciation Key
n. pl. lev·i·ties
Lightness of manner or speech, especially when inappropriate; frivolity.
Inconstancy; changeableness.
The state or quality of being light; buoyancy.
Does that make anyone happy? Is it possible to make any of you happy? Bonneville eh? Wow, people doing their homework are amazing! My lexicon is larger than most of yours and I suggest you find out what it takes to get something like that to the magnitude mine is……for I would hate to find you in public with a small lexicon and no ken of what is being done.
Out of all honesty, (which I think you all tell too well) how do you spell my name with WTF?
Now Matt...this IS Matt, innit?
Your lexicon and magnitude are showing again.
Also your vituperativeness is leaking in public.
Shouldn't you be busy swindling the state, feds and Ogdenites out of every drop you can get your bony fingrs on?
Put the dictionary and thesaurus away and get back to the real bidniz of guvmint...raping and pillaging.
BTW...I'm so happy, I could holler 'whoopee'! You know why? 'Cause we're gonna beat the pants off your skinny little butt!
Good luck because I don't wear pants......:/
Whaaaaaat? You hussy you! Somebody call a cop...or do you work on 25th Street...nice alleys there.
[Curmudgeon awards WTF a gold star for putting up a whole post without using one single word that would get him sent to the principal's office. Way to go, WTF! I knew you could do it! And using "lexicon" and "ken" properly in a sentence! Five bonus points. Now if you can keep that up and discuss the issues you think important at the same time, maybe we can have a worthwhile conversation...
I'm optimistic.... Not wildly so, but cautiously optimistic.]
The ONLY, repeat ONLY, thing that counts in real estate is W-R-I-T-T-E-N. It is either on paper and signed by both parties, or it DON'T apply. There are NO VERBALS so stories and thoughts of what happend are meaningless.
So why is Gadi filing lawsuits?
WTF, can you not conclude by me gramerical and spelling errors, I have no lexicon, and futhermore a lak of ken about all this is what we're all complaining about.
Curm gave WTF points for 'good' behavior so to speak, and not using dirty words...but what does WTF mean? Huh?
lexi :
He got points for not actually spelling it out. Hey, I'll take what I can get....
WTF: "Levity" in your context was wholly inappropriate, ignorant and exceptionally sophomoric; you can cite the word but you can't diagram the sentence, let alone reference the proper use of the noun, you goddamn jackass. Learn the language before you lecture those who could write circles around your Annapolis, Boston College ass.
Kristen Moulton's reporting on Godfrey's running.
Og:
Thanks for the link. there's a very interesting passage in Ms. Moulton's story that should probably have been headlined GODFREY NO LONGER CERTAIN GONDOLA PLAN MAKES SENSE:
Here's a longish passage from the story:
Godfrey said his campaign will focus on four main issues:
* Finish redeveloping downtown.
* Keep reducing crime.
* Continue revitalizing neighborhoods, particularly those in the east-central part of the city.
* Lower property taxes even more.
Noticeably absent from his top issues are controversial proposals to sell much of the city's open space on the east bench to a private developer and to build a gondola from downtown to Weber State University.
The developer, Chris Peterson, would use revenue from the development of homes around a redesigned Mount Ogden Golf Course to build a mountain gondola and a resort in Malans Basin above the city. Peterson has not yet made a formal proposal, but Godfrey has advocated the gondola and land sale.
On Wednesday, the mayor said seeing the gondola project through is not a reason he wants another four years.
"If a project makes sense, it will happen no matter who is in office," he said. "That's one project out of several that we think have tremendous potential for the community. We'll keep looking at it and see if it makes sense."
"We'll keep looking at it and see if it makes sense." Seems pretty clear from that, that Hizzonah [now a candidate] seems to consider the matter in doubt and in need of further study. My my my how running for office backing an unpopular idea can change a guy.
Notice also "the mayor said seeing the gondola project through is not a reason he wants another four years." Uh huh. Right. We've come a long way from the mayor's by-invitation-only dog and pony shows trying to sell the sale of Ogden's biggest part to build his gondola, haven't we? And if the plan is not a priority, perhaps he can explain why the Ogden promotional video he commissioned presents the gondola as an unquestioned element of Ogden's future.
Wow, Curt Geiger must be furious. I mean, he's explained to the entire city in his recent letter that he convinced his company's owners to move their American HQ here because Matt Godfrey assured him Ogden would build the gondola. And now this morning poor Curt has to read in the SL Trib that the Mayor is only willing to keep looking at it to see if it makes sense? Wow.
Godfrey's polling must have revealed that the sale of the Mt. Ogden Parklands and his gondola obsessions are big losers as campaign issues for him to back off this far this fast.
By the way, if there is anyone out there any who believes the Mayor when he says that selling the park to his crony for a housing development and ramming the gondola through to completion are not major reasons he's running again, I want to let you know that I've just acquired exclusive ownership of this bridge in Brooklyn that I can let you have for a very reasonable price [cash only, small unmarked bills please.]
Why is it that anybody that has a contrarian view here is automatically labeled as either being the mayor, or a Geiger? This place started out as a nice place where all views could be expressed and discussed and has morphed into a seemingly few people expressing a nearly constant negative attitude. It was nice to once have a place where discussion could happen on all fronts from all sides. Its a shame, really. My point is displayed by the attitude of having anybody with a different opinion other than the prevalent one here immediately being called or labeled as somebody they are probably not. Besides, to my knowledge, the Geigers have been banished to the dungeon.
maybe because you don't have the brains to think up a name for yourself, bozo!
Anon:
Well, I think you're wrong, though I share your dismay at the personal attacks that some here sometimes descend to. There is a fair amount of disagreement posted here on a variety of topics, though not as much as I wish was posted. I had [I thought at least] some interesting conversations with someone who signed Bernie. Long gone. I suspect the venom drove him off, which I wish it hadn't.
This is an open blog, as Rudi runs it, with a clearly anti-administration tone to the main threads, but the comment posts are open to all within certain pretty loose limits regarding venomous personal attacks, etc.
On an open blog, the key is I think: scan the posts for the ones you think worthwhile, engage via reply those you think worth engaging and ignore the rest. On an open blog you have to do some cherry picking, I think. So, pick a moniker and join in. WCF could use more variety of opinion than it has, I agree. Just ignore the posts from those who can't distinguish a public affairs blog from a middle school playground and make your case to the rest. [But do note that the fishmonger name calling comes from both sides here. I haven't noticed that the pro or con administration posters have any monopoly on it.]
Good Old (?) Curmudgeon:
If the Bernie to whom you refer is Bernie Allen, he is a moron of the highest order and the absolute worst representation of what a revisionist OTown native should be: piling on the back of Little Matty Gondola Godfrey and being dumb enough (despite being a lawyer) to be duped by Wayne Peterson. Your fairness schtick is running mighty thin. Mighty. (I would have italicized the final Mighty as to mock you, but I am HTML disabled.)
Jason:
I know most folks only by what they post here. A few exceptions, but not many. "Bernie" and I had an exchange running over several days about a year or so back that I found interesting, and from my POV worth the time. Beyond our conversation here, I knew [and know] very little about him. I wish we had more folks posting here about their reasons for supporting the administration on whatever it is is being discussed. I'm not ready to dismiss the entire Chamber of Commerce as blithering idiots --- they have endorsed Hizzonah's gondola obsession, so yes, I'd like some of them who think it is a good idea and workable to come on and explain why they think so. Be interesting I imagine. And worth it to engage them in a conversation about it [conversation, I said, not a hail of posts questioning their intelligence etc. ] Nobody else has to think this would be interesting, of course, but I do.
Good Old (?) Curmudgeon:
I don't know what "POV" is, but I do understand that "a hail of posts" and angrily flung pejoratives are to be directed to idiots who think that stringing up a circus ride from 23rd and Wall to a university that doesn't want it. By the very virtue of their allegiance to such moronic nonsense, they have negated their own intelligence; there's nothing upon which to base your ballyhooed "conversation." THE SKI IS BEAUTIFUL BLUE.
Jason:
POV = point of view.
I thought it meant Piss On Vinnie.
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