Something very interesting from this morning's Salt Lake Tribune: Kristen Moulton reports that Los Angeles-based gondolist and Ogden real estate investor Gadi Leshem has been arrested, charged and has entered not guilty pleas to five felony counts of workers' comp insurance fraud and conspiracy, which charges are based upon an alleged 4-1/2 year pattern of company payroll under-reporting:
Ogden booster faces felony chargesLike all defendants charged with criminal violations, Mr. Leshem is entitled to the benefit of the presumption of innocence, while this matter works its way through the Los Angeles County Superior Court. Nevertheless, we imagine this development will not be interpreted as "good news" by the local Emerald City Gondolist Cult.
By Kristen Moulton
The Salt Lake Tribune
Salt Lake Tribune
Article Last Updated:11/18/2006 12:33:39 AM MST
A businessman who has been snapping up property in blighted downtown Ogden and helped produce a video touting Mayor Matthew Godfrey's vision of the city as a recreational hub faces felony fraud charges in California.
Gadi Leshem, president and chief executive officer of Cover-All Inc., a flooring-installation company, is accused along with two of his executives of cheating California out of $11 million in workers-compensation insurance premiums since 2001.
Leshem, 59, pleaded not guilty to one felony count of conspiracy and four felony counts of insurance fraud earlier this week in Los Angeles County Superior Court.
His attorney, Mark Werksman, said the case is without merit and that he expects all charges to be dismissed.
Businessmen promoting Ogden have called Leshem a "visionary" who began investing in Ogden because he sees great promise in the northern Utah city's future as an urban center linked by gondola to a mountain resort.
He was the executive producer last year of a video - "Ogden: It's All Within Reach" - that Godfrey used to promote the city as a recreational magnet to prospective businesses.
The mayor did not return a phone call seeking comment Friday.
According to records at the Weber County Assessor's Office, Leshem has invested in 28 parcels - mostly vacant commercial land downtown - worth nearly $1.5 million.
Most of the property, including two warehouses and two old homes, sits along Wall Avenue or in the blighted area slated for redevelopment as part of the Ogden River Project."
Comments, anyone?
Update 11/20/06 6:09 p.m. MT: For the sake of archival continuity, we link yesterday's Standard Examiner article on this topic here. Std-Ex reporter Rebecca Palmer deftly adds Boss Godfrey's self-serving comments to the reportorial mix, in which he borrows a page from Bill Clinton's book, distances himself from his former "close pal," and weirdly refers to "golden gondolist boy" Leshem as "that individual." A Weber County Forum Tip o' The Hat to one anonymous gentle reader in the lower comments section for bringing that deja vu Boss Godfrey moment of official slimeyness to our attention.
Update 11/21/06 9:05 a.m. MT: We link here this morning's Scott Schwebke story, mysteriously buried on the Std-Ex print edition business page, breathlessly announcing Mr. Leshem's hope that his five pending felony charges will soon be dismissed, a hope univerally shared (and seldom realized) by every single defendant who has ever been charged with any criminal violation. As an added bonus, Ace reporter Schwebke devotes column-space to Boss Godfrey, as he further attempts to distance himself from Mr. Leshem. "A tremendous cheerleader," says Boss Godfrey (with a completely straight face,) in reference to gondolist visionary Leshem, but certainly not someone with a "central role" in Emerald City's ongoing real-life melodrama... yeah, THAT's the ticket.
149 comments:
For me, the key line in the article was:
“Werksman, Leshem's attorney, said the charges are a symptom of a state worker-compensation system in disarray where confusion over premiums reigns. The business dispute should be negotiated, not prosecuted criminally, he said.”
Business dispute?? So in other words he feels that $11 million in alleged fraud should be negotiated, behind closed doors, so to speak.
Kinda reminds me of how Reid and Godfrey decided behind closed doors to screw Woodbury for Woodbury's mall property. Woodbury sued for $5 million and Godfrey laughed it off. A year or so later Godfrey told the city council they'd have to shell out the $5 million after all and it was actually a good thing.
It's funny how things look different in the light of cold reality. I can understand why Gadi Leshem wanted to keep the discussions behind the scenes. It’s worked so well for him in Ogden. Why are the California authorities not willing to work with him that way??
Not Surprised:
One of the reasons, I think, why large scale tax evasion by businesses and individuals are, sadly, fairly common is that the penalties for getting nabbed usually involve fines [I gather from the papers] and not jail terms. No doubt the CFOs of every company caught with its hands in the tax cookie jar expects, wants and I suspect more often than not draws a civil penalty in the end, not a criminal one. The losers thus are the stockholders [if it's a publically-owned corporation], not the execs involved.
I need to add here, as Rudi did above, that Mr. Lesham is entitled and has a right to expect, as I would expect were I charged with criminal conduct, that his innocence [which he has proclaimed] be assumed unless a court determines otherwise. Sadly, for Mr. Lesham, and really, for all of us, I suspect some, and perhaps many, will equate his being charged with being guilty.
I have made several trips to Ogden from Los Angeles over the past year at the invitation of Gadi Leshem, my friend, and partner in Bizazz Media, our production company. We both feel an affection for the City, and a firm belief that wonderful things are in the pipeline. We have made an effort to be part of the renaissance, through some outside investment and the DVD’s that I have made for the fabric of the community, including the DVD that has attracted ski companies to do business there.
I am personally shocked, and horrified by the events of the past three weeks, and have been there first hand to watch as the wheels of “justice” went so far off track. I am grateful to both Curmudgeon and to Rudizink for pointing out that the presumption of innocence is as much a part of the fabric of our system as the right to vote. Gadi Leshem is innocent of all the charges, and the truth will be revealed in due time.
After an impeccable career in the film and television business, where I worked closely with substantial people in my industry, I am proud to call Gadi my partner. We will clear this up, and we will return; me with my camera, and Gadi, with his incredible ability to make things happen, as soon as we can. We love Ogden and believe in both the friends that we have met and the brilliant future of the City.
Why have we not heard about this before now, one wonders.
Los Angeles Daily News, CA - Oct 18, 2006
... Gadi Leshem, 59, founder and president of Cover-All Inc. of Chatsworth, was arrested at his Northridge home by state insurance fraud investigators...
Oct 20, 2006 4:55 pm US/Pacific
Judge Reduces Bail In Workers' Comp Fraud Case
(CBS) LOS ANGELES A Los Angeles Superior Court commissioner reduced bail Friday from $6.5 million to $100,000 for each of three defendants charged in a massive workers' compensation premium fraud case....
Nov 13, 2006 4:06 pm US/Pacific
3 Plead Not Guilty In Workers' Comp Fraud Case
(CBS) LOS ANGELES The president and vice president of a Chatsworth-based flooring company pleaded not guilty Monday to charges that they bilked the state's workers' compensation fund out of nearly $11 million in premiums.
Gad "Gadi" Leshem, president of Cover-All Inc., and company vice president Zeev Golan are free on $100,000 bail pending their next court appearance Feb. 8.
It's been going on for some time, evidently.
But I thought he was just a guy who saw Ogden, fell in love, and produced a DVD to promote it as such a wonderfull place? I had no idea that he has been buying up realestate. No wonder he is touting Ogden.
Let's not allow ourselves to be RAPED by these out of town opportunists who go from town to town taking advantage of it's townfolk and sucking it dry.
Mayor Godfrey does have a problem in picking the right projects to promote and in finding the "right" persons to get involved.
It takes a promoter to find someone who speaks the same language with the same ethics.
Isn't there a saying, "Birds of a feather"?
Producer Rupert--
I could make things happen, too, if I had pocketed an extra $11 million to use as working capital.
A bit about one property:
California company plans to move Ogden operations to larger location
Wednesday, October 12, 2005
By John Wright
Standard-Examiner staff
OGDEN -- The CEO of a floor-covering installation company says he has signed a contract to purchase a large warehouse at 20th Street and Wall Avenue.
Gadi Leshem, CEO of Chatsworth, Calif.-based Cover-All, said he is scheduled to close on the 58,000-square-foot building at 1976 Wall Ave. -- formerly home to Wall Cold Storage and Distribution -- in the next 45 days.
Leshem said he plans to renovate the 1953 structure, currently owned by Larry and Debbie Hansen, and move Cover-All's Ogden operations there from a 12,000-square-foot facility the company rents at 1760 W. 2532 South...
Warehouse Property
Is this the Larry Hansen with Pinnacle Marketing, one wonders.
I'm really disappointed.
I thought The Mayor was the biggest con artist I knew about and now I find out that he is not the "conner" - he is the "connee"
Shucks, you are dead wrong..
The Mayor gets the prize for being the biggest "conner".
He has convinced this Mr. Lesham to put his ill-gotten gains into Godfrey's "gondola-in-the-sky" hallucination by buying up Ogden property and paying for a movie to promote the hallucination.
That is the problem with the "new rich". They haven't experienced separation from their money often enough and long enough to smell a conner.
That usually takes a few years and a few experiences.
However, Godfrey is just the one to give him that experience in a hurry if he hangs around Ogden.
Rudi,
We owe you one again for important info that nobody else would have told us about. Once again the SLTrib scoops the local paper, on an important local story that has been developing for a month. Thanks to Dian too. One wonders if the SE through its incompetence or outright shilling is of any relevance at all any more.
To you and Curm, pointing out that we are "innocent until proven guilty", well, duh!
As far as not judging, well, it's not everyone that gets charged with what, $11 million in fraud? There's another saying, (although admittedly not part of the Constitution) that goes, "Where there's smoke, there's fire."
Producer Rupert’s theory requires that the California authorities are the real crooks, right Rupe? Another saying is, “Follow the money”. Maybe Gadi just couldn’t resist the 11 million reasons he saw dangling before him. So are the California authorities the crooks, or Gadi? Hmmm.
Bottom line, Gadi Leshem, gondolist and avid Godfreyite is facing felony fraud charges in California to the tune of $11 million. It speaks for itself.
This reminds me in a way of the Ernest Health fiasco which was supposed to go in as an anchor for the River Project.
Mayor Godfrey had not done his checking on those people either.
The top executives that finally made a public presentation to the Ogden City Council were all ex-employees of the defunct HealthSouth which took Medicare for the biggest scam in Medicare history.
In the last few months Health South has risen again with a public offering after the bankrupt company was reorganized.
Every time Schwebke does a SE article on the River Project he always mentions that land is still being held for Ernest Health to anchor the Project.
Several questions to be answered:
Will Ernest Health reappear as HealthSouth now?
Or will it appear as another subsidiary of the new HealthSouth?
Or will it ever reappear at all after the questions that were asked at the Council meeting that night?
It is time to recognize that Ogden is not the prize spot financially for any company to come to unless that company is looking to take Ogden.
Ogden is broke.
The sooner the Ogden RDA million dollar employee list is shut down the quicker Ogden will recover.
You know Rupert, I appreciate the affection you and "Stripes" Leshem feel for Ogden. I bet it's a lot like the affection I had for a little ticker called, PDX. I loved that little stock - loved it right up until the day I dumped it for a nice profit. It’s nice to hear you share in the mayor’s vision to help make what he claims will be a “renaissance,” fueled by his massive borrowing and spending. But you know, it’s not uncommon when a huckster starts pitching for it to attract people looking for a quick pop on their investment – people like you and Stripes, Rupert.
But there’s another kind of love. I hope you’ll experience it sometime. It’s the kind of love that makes you want not just to invest, but to actually settle down and call a place your home. And it’s a love that makes you want to defend that home from the sleazoids that would take it all away and sell it like it was a cheap Hollywood whore. It’s the kind of love that makes you suspicious of people, well, of people like you and Stripes, Rupert.
Just do me this one little favor Rupert. Save your innocent pleas for, well, for the judge. And if you feel inclined to write again to tell us all of your affection for our little town – the town where we live – the town where you look to make a quick score – save it for the morning time, so I can at least use all that sugary syrup to oil my pancakes.
Dear Producer Rupert:
I'll withhold comment on the fraud charges against your friend. But I know for a fact that you are guilty of disseminating fraudulent claims, through the video you produced. This type of fraud is not criminal, but it is still wrong. Here are a few of the fraudulent statements in the video:
"Ogden is where Interstates 84, 80, and 15 cross--and where there's a tremendous international airport." --Chris Peterson. (As everyone here knows, neither I-80 nor the international airport is in Ogden.)
"Thankfully we have people like Chris Peterson who are great stewards over spectacular tracts of land." --Mayor Godfrey. (Peterson's great stewardship is documented here; when the video was made, he had owned this spectacular tract of land for less than a year.)
"Chris Peterson will build a gondola and other Doppelmayr system that takes you up into a basin called Malan's Basin." --Curt Geiger. (The video portrays the gondola as a done deal, not a speculative concept. But Peterson himself said a few months later, in your presence, that it wasn't too late for the whole idea to die.)
The video is also deceptive in other ways. Though it is purportedly about Ogden City, much of the footage in the video was actually taken in Ogden Valley.
Despite these fraudulent aspects, the general concept of the video was sound: businesses should consider relocating to Ogden because of its outstanding recreational opportunities and low cost of living. But if you really wanted to do this city a favor, you should have let the truth speak for itself, rather than enhancing it with deceptions and lies.
Several points:
First, to Dan: Nice job of fisking the film. And it reinforces what I think has been evident since the first meeting of Lift Ogden: they decided to market a concept in advance of anyone actually having done the necessary work to see if the concept was in fact feasible.
Second, to Not Surprised: "where there's smoke, there's fire" is an admirable operating principle for Forest Service workers on firewatch. It's a god-awful one in the justice system. Why bother with a trial if accusation is tantamount to finding guilt? "Let's give him a fair trial and then hang him" belongs in bad westerns. Period. Happily, we, as a rule, have decided not to take The Oxbow Incident as a model for American justice.
Third, to Native: Mr. Lesham is a real estate speculator, which is not necessarily an illegal or unehtical occupation. [Though it can be, in the wrong hands. As usual, the devil is in the details.] His buying up downtown Ogden rundown properties at a low price was I suspect a wise move, and he will clean up when Frontrunner --- not Hizzonah's pie-in-the-sky gondola fantasy --- arrives in Ogden. Nor is it necessary [or even wise] that an investor or developer live in the city where he conducts business. Going after him on that score seems like unjustified piling on to me. He wants to invest in the Riverside Project and help make a go of it, and profit into the bargain, that's fine with me, and I don't much care where he lives. My only problem with him [pending the outcome of his legal problems] is his helping to shill for the Peterson/Godfrey real estate speculation that would cost Ogden its largest park abd most of its undeveloped public benchlands, and millions upon millions of public dollars over decades in order to build and maintain and operate a public-owned gondola that won't take people to Snow Basin or even to another gondola that won't take people to Snow Basin.
And finally, fourth, again to Not Surprised: agreed, the news about Mr. Lesham's legal problems is not good news for Hizzonah and the Lift Ogden Amen Chorus. It will divert discussion from the Peterson non-proposal, it does raise questions about the integrity of the Mayor's associates in this venture [charges, on their own, do do that much], and it therefor raises questions about the Mayor's judgement, just as his episode playing Junior G-man following a city employee's wife around downtown because she dared to oppose one of his policies did. And such questions would make me, if I were, oh, say a City Councilman on the fence about the Peterson non-proposal, want to take a step back, a deep breath, and a longer slower look at what the Mayor was pitching. Which, come to think of it, with the Godfrey administration is wise policy at all times.
Just a comment. We've worked professionally with the California Department of Insurance in numerous cases in the past; and we can't think of a single California regulatory agency who might be worse to deal with if we were a culpable criminal defendant.
The investigators in that department are hard-core bean-counters, intelligent, professional and technically proficient. Same with theit attorneys.
Our experience suggests that they won't file a case with the County D.A. unless they have enough evidence to nail a perpetrator to the wall.
Win or lose, Gadi has a problem here. He's dealing with a BIG GOVERNMENT California regulatory agency which operates to set examples of people like Gadi.
Even multimilloinares cringe when faced by the power of EXTREMELY BIG GOVERNMENT in California.
Legal fights like this are the kinds of battles that take years off people's lives.
We wish Gadi well; and we hope he didn't get caught with "double books," as Kristen's article seems to suggest.
We'll assume for the time being that Gadi's bookkeeping was just sloppy for the last five years.
We doubt very much that these alleged criminal activites were brought to the attention of California regulatory authorities because Gadi was stupid enough to be paying these omitted employees in cash, and not submitting the true expenses to the proper regulatory authorities.
We agree with Rupert and Gadi's attorney:
Gadi is obviouslsy unjustly accused!
So will Officer Jones and Gadi soon be cell-mates?
Here's a thought:
Whenever I (non-judgmentally) describe the urban/mountain gondola scheme to friends visiting from out of town, they immediately decide the whole thing is ludicrous. These people come from all walks of life but have one thing in common, they are all smart and possess a good deal of common sense.
This makes me wonder whether Ogden has LOST businesses that considered moving here when they heard this hair-brained scheme? In particular, if they are made to believe that it is going ahead full-bore.
G/G/G and Chamber of Commerce certainly wouldn't tell us about that if it happened, now would they?
.
First of all, there seems to be more than one Not Surprised here, not all of which are me. Having said that, and having read Curm’s and Rudi's comments made me realize that I hadn't conveyed my actual feelings regarding Gadi.
First off, I suspect the level of his (accused) fraud exceeds the level of his profits over the same period, and I assume that would be a strong motivation for him to do it. It would make sense - another inept businessman circling the government flame, looking for a way to graft his way to true success through government action on his behalf, just like most of the Ogden Chamber of Commerce members and other government suck ups, as opposed to actual successful businessmen.
And my feelings of hope that Gadi will spend the rest of his short life getting gang raped by anti-Semitic prison skin heads springs not so much from my feelings for him personally as from the fact that he is an avid Godfreyite, and indeed, I would hope for the same fate for all Godfreyites - and only that, because they seek to destroy my home town.
So yes, you did give me something to think about.
Anyone remember how the Khashoggis were going to transform Salt Lake into a Dubai-like paradise with their gazillions, back in the early '80s?
It just seems that Utah will ever be a sucker for rich men who flatter and cajole. Leshem and Peterson are merely the latest Pied Pipers to beguile Ogden; they are surely not the last.
What monies is Gadi using for his high-powered attorneys?? Has that $11,000,000, been confiscated yet?
Those insurance company investigators don't snap the cuffs on someone just for the heck of it. They have quite a bit on Gadi to justify the charges and the cuffing.
Only $100,000. slapped on him and his alleged felonious 'associates'is an
invitation to flee the country!
Is Lesham a U.S. citizen?
He's a con 'artiste', it appears, just like Godfrey, Peterson and the rest of the attempted rapists who are on the prowl in Ogden. Not all rapists are skulking behind bushes and in dark alleys waiting to pounce. Many are calculating and can 'charm' the panties off their prey!
Keep a tight grip on your undies.
Will try to post this defunct blog link which is all about the plans these individuals had for the community:
Monday, October 10, 2005
Yet Another Piece of the Puzzle- It's About Time to Believe, Folks!
Didn't work--sorry. Perhaps the Blogmeister can fix it. It is a cached link.
"....he wants to invest in the River Project and help make a go of it and make a profit in the bargain is okay with me".....egads, Curm, I think that remark and thinking is naive and rather silly in the face of the charges against Mr. Lesham.
Oh, I know....'innocent til proven guilty'...well, I agree with Livermore that insurance investigators are deliberate, thorough, and not precipitous in these matters of alleged fraud.
I think the investigators were on solid ground when they had Mr. Lesham arrested. So, it follows to my way of thinking that a guy who would defraud the CA gov't to the tune of eleven million bucks, wouldn't hesitate to take advantage of an eager schmuck like Godfrey who is defrauding HIS CITY....alike thinkers, don'tcha know?
If Gadi prevails and is found innocent of all charges, I'll buy you a nice cold lemonade!
One of the reasons Godfrey and Peterson and the Amen Chorus have gotten their scheme on so many lips and being touted at the civic luncheons is because hardly anyone dares to question!!
Talk about the Emporer's New Clothes....People who aren't on this blog NEED to know and hear what WE keep saying to each other.
I hope that we are so vociferous as we interact with NONbloggers.
Thanx, Dan...for reminding us of the contents of Lesham's video. Another instance of shady dealings.
Is Producer Rupert that little Hollywood whiner who told us how 'mean' we were several months ago?? And that he was going back to Hollywood and never coming to Ogden again? We can always hope.
Proud:
What you quote was in reply to some posts that were attacking real estate speculators/developers who do not live in the communities they develop. My point was, investing in and developing real estate is neither illegal nor unethical, and if investers/developers want to invest in the River Project to make it work, and make a profit at the same time, fine with me, and I don't much care where they live. That applies to Mr. Lesham too unless of course he is shown to be dishonest or unethical in his business practices. Dishonest or unethical investors/developors are not welcome at anytime, resident or not. But I saw when I posted, and see now, no reason to attack non-resident investors, or developers, simply for being non-resident, as some above seemed to be doing.
NOT that he is a non-resident, Mr. C, but one should question from whence have come those funds to INVEST in the River Project, and to buy up 'blighted' buildings and properties in so called 'blighted' areas?
IF Lesham is found guilty of insurance fraud, will those properties have millions of Californians' names on the deed??
WHY is this mayor courting and hobnobbing with people of tainted character and/or APPEAR to be scamming the good folks?
Proud:
With respect to the connection between Mayor Godfrey and Mr. Leshem, the SE has a story this morning which adds something interesting to the story that ran in the SL Trib yesterday. [SE story linked
here.
The SE reports that among the people Mr. Leshem called right after entering a plea of "not guilty" to the charges was... Mayor Matthew Godfrey.
Notice how the S.E. paper said right after the trial, as to suggest that this whole matter is behind him. Where as it probably should have said hearing for the up coming trial. Unless you'd read farther into the article to figure it out one might think this was much about nothing. Amazing what a few chosen words can do to the meaning of things.
Here are some quotes from the page I was unable to link earlier outlining Mr. Leshem's plans for Ogden. They are from the now defunct Good In Ogden blog:
...Leshem was excited by the possibility of utilizing Ogden’s growth to expand his business, as well as that of others. For example, he sees the potential development, with Bizazz Media, of a viable alternative to “runaway” movie and television production, utilizing the vast space he has been told is available for the construction of studios, offices, scenic shops and lodging...
...“Gadi Leshem’s enthusiasm is encouraging,” Geiger said. “We couldn’t be happier than to have a visionary like Gadi come to our city...”
...The potential is there, combining the Weber St. University as a basic talent pool, and building a production complex in Ogden, in partnership with Bizazz Media, the successful corporate training and motivational production company.
“I am impressed with Mayor Godfrey’s initiative,” Leshem said. “I see his passion and understanding of the big picture. Everything he is doing will result in a geographic and economic explosion for Ogden in the near future. And I want to be there as it develops. There is a huge amount of energy here.”
Mayor Godfrey agreed. “We are thrilled that Mr. Leshem is showing this kind of interest,” he said. “The expansion of his Service Center project will bring jobs to Ogden and renovate another historic building downtown...”
I will try another method to link the entire article. Go to this search page: Google Search. The third link from the top is "The Good in Ogcen.com: Yet Another Piece of the Puzzle-It's About.." Do not click on that. Instead, go down to the bottom of the entry and click on the word "Cached." That should take you to the page if you would like to see it.
Ta-Da!!!!!
Yet Another Piece of the Puzzle- It's About Time to Believe, Folks!
Thanks Dian and Rudi - that link was a gem! I especially enjoyed the two "mature" comments following the main article.
Out of curiousity, I went to Producer Rupert's Bizazz Media webpage. There are a wealth of nuggets there. The blog alone is worth reading. f anyone has trouble accessing various pages and videos, just be persistent and click twice. It really is a wonderful example of yet more smoke and mirrors. I suspect that the Ogden promo is edited because it didn't show Mayor Godfrey, who is described as being one of the "prominent businessmen" interviewed along with Peterson and Geiger.
Under "about us" Gadi Lesham is described as being a "Partner" in Bizazz Media - that follows his being depicted as a candidate for business sainthood. And, Producer Rupert, did Ogden City pay for the making of those police and firefighter recruiting videos?
Yet more gems, these from our very own WCF:
Hollywood is talking to WSU and more ski companies are on their way. I know this for a Fact.
I spoke with the floor company owner and have had dinner with him on multiple occassions. He's coming here because of the things that are happening in this town. He has told me that point blank. Also, this is much more to Gadi Lesham that Floor Covering...
...So you know about Rupert Hetzig and Gaddi Lesham. You know that Rupert has produced some great hi-profile movies in Hollywood and worked with many, many big named actors. You also know that Gaddi is working with him on some other production programs for his company and others. I also know that Gaddi has had a small footprint in Ogden, but is looking to expand significantly based on the things that are happening here. You also know that Gaddi is working with a few other business associates to work on some other business deals in town. You also know that he is talking with Chris Peterson and that he and Rupert want to coordinate with Chris and his student housing program...
Weber County Forum Archive
This is getting very interesting. Mr. Lesham is listed as a "partner" in Bizazz Media, which apparently produced not only a propaganda film for Mayor Godfrey touting the gondola scheme, but also police and firemen recruitment videos as well [presumably on commission from Ogden City?] And now, from a post by Bob Geiger on WCF [thanks Dian for digging it out], it seems Mr. Lesham may as well be involved with Mr. Peterson in some kind of real estate or construction venture, or at least he was hoping to be. And a venture, it seems, that depended on the gondola/Peterson scheme going through.
Curiouser and curiouser.
Hope somebody at the SE or SL Trib or maybe even SL City Weekly [since they do, IMHO, the best investigative journalism in the state at the moment] is ferreting out all these hinted at and alleged business connections between Godfrey/Ogden and Lesham [dba Bizazz Media or in any other way] on the one hand, and Lesham and Peterson on the other. If there are substantial business connections, we need to know that. And if there are not, we need to know that. The point is, the press needs to do a little digging, I think, and find out if there are a lot of strings tying those three together that the public is not yet aware of.
As I said, curiouser and curiouser....
At the very least, I trust, all this blather about Mr. Lesham investing in Ogden as kind of a philanthropic gesture will now be laid to rest. He saw a business opportunity here and invested accordingly, and seems to have coseyed up to the Mayor as a way of furthering his business interests in Ogden. Not necessarily anything wrong with that, but given recent events in California, seems to me the public now has a heightened need to know the extent of Mr. Lesham's business and/or political dealings with Hizzonah and Mr. Peterson. Just to clear the air, if nothing else.
It is my understanding that Gaddi Lesham and Chris Peterson are/have been talking partnership on the supposed and potential Hotel located on 23rd/Washington (nw corner) in which the gondola is to pass through. I am not aware if there are other partners (Geigers?) but it is said that this will only happen if the gondola comes about. I am sure things will be changing on that idea now no matter if the gondola went in or not or if Lesham is convicted or not. The public relations nightmare has already happened. There is mud on several folks faces right now, the Mayor, Geigers, Peterson, Chamber of Commerce, LO, GIO blog and others. This is getting more interesting by the minute, if not even comical... unfortunately. Network television may be picking this saga up for prime time. What next??? ~ogden iii's~
I am, once again, thinking how fortunate we are to have the Ogden City Council, which tabled the approval process for the Chris Peterson project. As Curmudgeon said:
...all these hinted at and alleged business connections between Godfrey/Ogden and Lesham [dba Bizazz Media or in any other way] on the one hand, and Lesham and Peterson on the other. If there are substantial business connections, we need to know that. And if there are not, we need to know that...
Yes. Absolutely right. If our city has been put in any jeopardy by this, the one thing we do not want to do is get in deeper.
One wonders if Leshem was one of the major private investors for the Urban Gondola, (we have heard that such individuals exist,) or for the Peterson project itself.
The Council and RDA should call a halt to all action on these projects until it is ascertained that these recent events have not jeopardized or changed them in any way. Probably the Planning Commission should too, I think.
I would be happy to consider most of you as writers on my next soap opera ... TALES AT THE FOOT OF A MOUNTAIN. Please send resumes to me at Bizazz ... you really are quite inventive.
There is a cached Deseret News article from October 25th, 2005, entitled: "Snowbasin is Opposed to Gondola From Ogden," which states:
... "Really, our master plan does not call for anything like that as far as I can see," Snowbasin general manager Denzel Rowland said.
Rowland was objecting to a resolution and news release from Mayor Matthew Godfrey promoting a gondola system for Ogden that could link to Snowbasin...
...The news release from Godfrey's office announced floor-covering installation company Cover-All's plans to purchase a building at 20th Street and Wall Avenue. The release attributes statements to Cover-All CEO Gadi Leshem, who helped write it.
A collaboration of sorts there, one might say.
Don't you think the poor boy from Harrisville was bowled over by all this attention from big shots from Cal-ee-for-ni-ya and even a film producer to produce a film with him in it?
That's big stuffff!
No wonder he didn't bother to check their credentials.
Curt told me months ago that Lesham was buying a building on WA Blvd to house his film "school"...Lesham had contacted WSU and 'offered' to run a film school there. Curt said that WSU had turned Lesham down! I mean, how short-sighted can a University be?
I KNEW as soon as I read Dian's quotes that the author was.....ta da..(drum roll) bobby geiger!! And sure 'nuff, it was!
Ogden Lover...I agree, the comments at the end of Chapman's??? thread were beyond vulgarity. So, that's the mentality of the LO crowd?
If Hitzig wants to make a porn film on a par with 'bad girls gone wild, and 'how my mayor screwed a whole town'...he can find plenty of potty mouthed actors on the LO supporting players list.
The Council just better lay low on this gondola/Peterson/Godfrey/Geiger nonsense as previously suggested a few times. Did you catch how many times bobby g. referred to all these 'big plans' as "visions" and the 'businessme' who are willing to come here and latch onto a gondola cable as "visionaries"?
It seems to me that so many of these 'investment minded', forward thinking 'businessmen' that the Geigers' and the mayor are prouldly parading in the local media, AND TAKING CREDIT FOR, are less than savory.
I wonder if Curt and Bob are regaling the crowd down at Rooster's about Lesham and Hitzig now? Do take credit for them, boys.
I, once again, implore the Council and PC to do NOTHING about changing the zoning ordinances...as all play into the unproposed propsal of Peterson! His att'y, Ellison, is a sharpie at this game of 'winning' for the high paying team.
The best ploy to protect us and our golf course, open spaces, and the TAXPAYERS, is to do absolutely NOTHING!!! If our 'legislative' body does nothing, Ellison can't slither in.
Everyone should remember that there is NO plan of any type before the folks. Just what the Geigers' are fond of calling 'visions'.
We don't need visionaries here...either as potential business leaders or as mayor and attendant sycophants.
a recent house guest, who grew up in Ogden, told us that she and her family 'would never live in Ogden again' because of the high crime. She wondered how the mall could be successful because the crime is so rampant in the inner city...and downtown.
Video cameras in the parking mall couldn't persuade her that the mayor has taken a proactive stance against crime.
Can anyone make sure this story gets out on the SLC TV stations? Yes, Leshem is innocent until proven guilty, but news reports can certainly say "indicted", which he is.
It seems like the general public, who assume the gondola project is a done deal because Mighty Mouse talks that way, need to know that it's not. Many don't read the Trib or the Std Examiner, otherwise I'd suggest a guest commentary there.
BTW, I emailed Kristen Moulton at the Trib, thanking her for doing such a great job covering Ogden. I also suggested she pass my comments along to her boss if she felt like it. How many stories have broken there first? How many stories would never have shown up in the SE or even here without her writing them first? Let's let the Trib know that they and Kristen are appreciated.
Dian:
I learned recently that UTA has earmared $200,000 for Ogden to begin work on the Alternative Analysis process for the trolley line Wasatch Regional Front recommended as the best solution to Ogden's tranist problems... on a route from downtown up 24th street to Harrison, then to WSU and McKay Dee Hospital. A recommendation, I might add, that has already been endorsed by the Planning Commission a year ago.
UTA has had the money available for Ogden to begin the study for a year now. The Godfrey administration has done nothing. And the money still sits there for Ogden's use, to do the necessary prelininary work -- enviro analysis and hard cost estimates for the trolley line. Yet the city has done nothing. [Well, when you have to spend so much time hob-nobbing with California film-makers and their partners, there isn't much time left I guess for actively minding the City's business. Though there seems to be enough time to follow a city employee's wife around downtown for poltical reasons. 'Tis a puzzlement, that's for sure....]
My concern is that if and when Mayor Godfrey finally presents a downtown gondola plan to the Council for its consideration, the ONLY figures before the Council will deal with the proposed gondola system. Seems to me the Council should have before it as well, comparative figures for the alternate proposal, the trolley line WFRC recommended. The UTA money to start generating that information has been availabe for a year now. And nothing has happened.
I suspect I know why: Hizzonah the Mayor does not want comparative cost figures for a trolley line developed, he does not want the Planning Commission or Council to have two sets of hard estimates before them because he knows or suspects that the downtown gondola would not survive such a cost/benefit comparison. And so the UTA funds allocated to Ogden for the analysis of the trolley route lie there, unused.
Can't the Council begin the process, access the money, and take steps to make sure that if any when a gondola proposal comes before them, they will have two sets of figures to look at, they will be able to compare cost/benefits for both the proposed gondola and the proposed street car alternative before they have to make a decision?
Curmudgeon:
Perhaps the Council does not know about this. I would think they could start the process themselves if they did.
They should be informed, for sure.
Curmudgeon, the Council was just notified that the Wasatch Front Regional Council will do a presentation on possible transporation routes at one of our work meetings in the near future. Professor Dorsey was the one who told me that a study had been done in 2005 by WSU, WFC and the City. I obtained a copy of that study, but I was unaware that UTA was holding money for Ogden "to do the necessary prelininary work -- enviro analysis and hard cost estimates for the trolley line." At one of our work meetings when we were talking about the gondola, I mentioned that I was concerned that we were only considering the gondola as a means of transportation and I felt that we should look at all modes before we made any kind of a decision on the gondola. There were other Council members who indicated they felt that way also. But no one told us even then that UTA had money for us for a study. Are you sure of your source?
Councilwoman Jeske:
I think so, but I will now try to track down a citeable reference for you. If I locate one, or if I can not, either way, I will let you know.
Curm: "Can't the Council begin the process, access the money, and take steps to make sure that if any when a gondola proposal comes before them, they will have two sets of figures to look at, they will be able to compare cost/benefits for both the proposed gondola and the proposed street car alternative before they have to make a decision?"
The true relationship of the city council to the mayor under Utah law is fairly accurately described on the Ogden City website:
"MAYOR-COUNCIL FORM OF GOVERNMENT
In January 1992, Ogden City transitioned from a charter city manager form of government to a mayor-council form. The mayor-council form of local government follows the ideal of "separation of power" set forth by the framers of the Constitution, which vests the City government in separate, independent, and equal branches of government:
An executive branch consisting of a mayor and the administrative departments
A legislative branch consisting of the city council and its staff.
COUNCIL RESPONSIBILITIES AND POWERS
The main responsibilities of the City Council are:
Policy. The Council adopts plans and ordinances that serve as the framework for city programs and services. They set service levels that define the quality and extent of city services through adoption of the budget. They also may do comprehensive studies of specific departments or operations to determine the efficiency and effectiveness of city programs. Suggestions or recommendations may come from individual Council Members, Council staff, the Mayor, Administrative staff, community groups, citizens, etc. In general, the Council sets policy through the adoption of ordinances.
The Mayor has policy responsibility for Administrative policy. At times, there is a fine line between the Council and the Mayor's responsibilities, so both parties have to work together. In general terms, the City Council (legislative policy) decides what should be done and the Administration (executive policy) decides how it should be done." [emphasis added]
In short, the municipal policy-making function has been delegated by the state legislature to the City Council, and the policy-exection function to the Mayor.
Once again, for emphasis, "In general terms, the City Council (legislative policy) decides what should be done and the Administration (executive policy) decides how it should be done."
Presently, the de facto situation in Emerald City amounts to a complete role-reversal, in our opinion, as to policy-making. Due to a combination of factors, including organizational inertia, extreme mayoral aggressiveness and council disorganization/timidity, virtually all policy has been coming from the administration for the past six years, and VERY LITTLE substantive policy has been originating from the city council legislative body itself.
A reversal of this bizarre situation will obviously require both strong citizen input and concerted council leadership.
Emerald City citizens have been waiting for nearly a year for the council to assert its lawful and proper role in municipal government. Hopefully the council will grasp and assume its rightful and true responsibilities sometime in the near-future, and begin originationg policy on its own.
Yes, Curmudgeon. The council has the legal authority to initiate its own process and access whatever money and other resources Boss Godfrey has overlooked or ignored. In your specific case, they can pass an ordinance instructing Boss Godfrey to follow through with the processes which they designate, or even appoint their own independent agent, to ensure appropriate follow-through.
What seems to be lacking at the moment is merely the necessary political will.
Rudi:
Thanks for posting the plan of government exceprts. But a caution here: as I've said on numerous occasions, information posted absent citeable sources is just speculation and rumor. This applies to what I post as well. I hope to be able to confirm what I posted about the study funds soon, but same standard applies to me as I apply to others here: until I can post a citeable source, it shouldn't be taken as established. Working on it.
Actually, Curm, we've been involved in extended research on this subject, and intend to post a main article on the separation of municipal powers topic, complete with statute and case-cites shortly.
We were gratified however to find a thumbnail restatement of the law right there on Boss Godfrey's own website, as it allowed us to make our argument with very little excess bandwidth expense.
Just another reason for our gentle readers to "stay tuned," we hope.
Producer: Yes indeed you have the makings of a soap opera. However you don't not need to go to this blog for writers. You have all the material and characters that you need right with the folks you hang out with here in Ogden and the scenarios are reality. Not a fiction piece but true blue non-fiction. The cast of characters are the Mayor, Peterson, Geigers, Chamber of Commerce, Lift Ogden cronies, Gaddi and yourself, among others. You could write a good part for yourself and Tom Cruise could play it. The reality of what is happening here in Ogden at this time because of those characters is all you need. No fiction or imagination.
Although I don't think any of our local zealots, including the Mayor who have taken Gaddi into their circle cannot really be blamed for his presumed misdeed. I do agree that birds of a feather do flock together. I don't think anybody could have seen this one coming in any background check. I think you will now see our Mayor and others distancing themselves, as the Mayor quotes "this individual" already in the SE quote. Kinda like hearing Clinton saying "that woman".
Here is one interesting note that I am not sure how it applies but I think is note worthy to bring up to this forum. In the last City Planning Commission meeting Sharon referred to the document about the sensitve overlay changes and that if forensic checked it would have fingerprints of the Mayor, Peterson and his attorney all over it. That set me to thinking about it. So I dug a bit. I was told at the Mt. Ogden Community Planning meeting a City Planning Commissioner was approached by a woman who asked about secret documents regarding these new revisions. She knew nothing. In following up with Greg Montgomery, he said there is not any secret documents but that what may be refered to are copies of the multi-use zoning changes which were written by city attorney Andrea Lockwood and that the document was sent to Chris Peterson's attorney for notes, comments, revisions and editing. This was done and sent back with markings on the draft. This may be what some have referred to as the secret documents and would be very interesting to see what notes, changes etc he made. The edited version from Peterson's attorney must be what is being referred to as the secret document. Of course, anybody would have a right for input at this stage but I find it odd that this was made available to them in the process at this early in the drafting. I doubt this could happen unless this was coming from the Mayors office in order to accomodate these boys. Otherwise why would they even care or know of it. This is proof that this is being done for them and specifically for them and they know what and how they want it to read. They need all these ordinances in their favor before the drop the bomb, their proposal to the city. It is important to dig to the bottom of what it is that is hidden in these documents to accomodate Peterson via the Mayor. This would be perfect for the Standard Examiner but I doubt they have the gumption to move on it. Perhaps the Tribune. Remember, Andrea Lockwood and Greg Montgomery are obligated to their boss Mayor Godfrey and his wants and needs as they are on his, so to speak, payroll (in reality they are on our payroll... the citzens but he is their boss). City Planning Commission and City Council are not, although they are pawns in the grand scheme unless of course that they took allegiance to the Mayor somewhere down the line. The truth is out there. It is time to dig. They (cp & cc) may not even really know what it is they are being asked to do as it is hidden into these documents very carefully and made to appear that other things are being accomplshed. I think that is why the City Planning Commission has asked to table it so they could dig further into it and understand it, I think they suspect something fishy. Hopefully they will find it. If there are those who have an eye for these kinds of things perhaps they/you may want to study it further before the meetings and find the changes that benefit Peterson and present them to the Commission. This ordinance is well in place. Why it is being revisited now and in such a hurry is odd. Not really a mystery but very odd timing unless of course it is for the purpose of Peterson. I know they had hoped it would just slip through being passed as all things. The Mayor is inconvenienced by Democracy but he is playing the game because he has to. It is up to us and the governing bodies to figure it out and bring light to what is really going on here. I think this is very important and I hope someone will pick up the ball. You could verify by asking Montgomery or Lockwwood and I wonder if they would make available Peterson's attorneys notes. That would show what they are after, which we all know anyway. Proof in writing. .~ogden iii's~
And when the draft was sent to Mr. Ellison (Peterson's attorney) for his input and comments, just who paid for his time?
Everyone at the Planning Commission meeting could sense that Peterson's attorney's fingerprints were all over the proposed zoning changes, but the PC members denied, denied and denied, and so did Greg Montgomery.
Perhaps Dorrene (poor overworked, honest Dorrene) could get Peterson's redlined copy from Andrea Lockwood so the PC members can see it. I suspect the PC members were being honest when they said they understood the proposed changes were not about Peterson. They will be interested to know they too were kept in the dark by our very religious but very dishonest mayor. I would also hope the PC will sidetrack the whole thing and put it back to square one with some kind of citizen’s committee to review the sensitive overlay and multi-use zoning changes. Now they know they can’t trust the administration either. Better yet, they should just deny the whole proposed change until Godfrey is long gone and we have an honest mayor.
My recommendation to the Planning Commission and the Council is to do NOTHING!!! Absolutley NOTHING! Table til the proverbial cows wander home, if that is necessary.
Ogden iii's (love that moniker!) is right! Thank you for digging deeper after my 'forensics' remark. Rudi posted above the proper roles fo the Council and the Mayor...The Council has the power and the authority to call the shots here, if only they will have the gumption to do it.
The PC must do nothing about ANY changes in zoning ordinances, and the Council must send a strong message that they will not even CONSIDER a 'process' into an 'unproposed proposal'. It seems to me that everyone involved here who is a City employee is suspect in their motivations.
I don't trust any of them. We all know the machinations of the Master Manipultors: Godfrey, Ellison, Peterson (who hired the MM), and their Amen Chorus supporters.
Therefore, I urge the Council to hire an OUTSIDE of Weber County attorney who can go head to head with Ellison, and one who will honestly represent the interests of the Council and the citizens.
Do any of you trust Lockwood and the other City paid attorneys??
Again...the proper course of action for the PC and the CC is to do absolutley NOTHING in considering the ordinance changes or the 'process' garbage that the CC had sense enuf to table last week.
We all know that that 39 page document we were handed at the last PC meeting (yes, the Marathon one), was not EXACTLY what had been presented to them earlier.
We have so much 'doctoring' of documents, ordinances, codes and such, that we seem to have our own ERNEST Health Plan already on board. And we KNOW their origin also.
My recommendation to the Planning Commission and the Council is to do NOTHING!!! Absolutley NOTHING! Table til the proverbial cows wander home, if that is necessary.
Ogden iii's (love that moniker!) is right! Thank you for digging deeper after my 'forensics' remark. Rudi posted above the proper roles fo the Council and the Mayor...The Council has the power and the authority to call the shots here, if only they will have the gumption to do it.
The PC must do nothing about ANY changes in zoning ordinances, and the Council must send a strong message that they will not even CONSIDER a 'process' into an 'unproposed proposal'. It seems to me that everyone involved here who is a City employee is suspect in their motivations.
I don't trust any of them. We all know the machinations of the Master Manipultors: Godfrey, Ellison, Peterson (who hired the MM), and their Amen Chorus supporters.
Therefore, I urge the Council to hire an OUTSIDE of Weber County attorney who can go head to head with Ellison, and one who will honestly represent the interests of the Council and the citizens.
Do any of you trust Lockwood and the other City paid attorneys??
Again...the proper course of action for the PC and the CC is to do absolutley NOTHING in considering the ordinance changes or the 'process' garbage that the CC had sense enuf to table last week.
We all know that that 39 page document we were handed at the last PC meeting (yes, the Marathon one), was not EXACTLY what had been presented to them earlier.
We have so much 'doctoring' of documents, ordinances, codes and such, that we seem to have our own ERNEST Health Plan already on board. And we KNOW their origin also.
In defense of the PC:
The Planning Commission members' point is, I think, that proposed changes in the sensitive area overlay zone ordinance and the possible adoption of a multiple use ordinance ought to be considered on their merits, regardless of who proposed them or made suggestions or contributed ideas to them. If change X in the Sensitive Overlay Ordinance is a good idea, then it's a good idea regardless of who suggested it; same thing if it's a bad idea. Were I on the PC, I'd probably feel the same way: my responsibility would be to consider everything that came before me on its merits. It seems that that is what most of them are trying to do.
And the proposed changes in, say, the Sensitive Area Overlay revision are numerous. Some of them may well be good ideas [it has been a while since Ogden looked at the ordinance], some not. If I were on the PC, I'd probably reply to some of the posts above this way: "If change X is a good idea, it is so regardless of whether it will assist Mr. Peterson's project or not."
Yes, we all know Mr. Peterson wants/ needs the limit on construction on slopes over 30% to be removed for his real estate speculation on the public lands to succeed. [And similarly, we know many people oppose removing the restriction because not removing it would make the Godfrey/Peterson land speculation scheme much less likely.] But a PC member, seems to me, to fulfill his or her responsibility, should look at whether [all that aside] the proposed change is a wise one. [NB: I don't think it would be.] So the statement from Commissioners that Peterson doesn't come up in the discussions is, I think, in most cases, true.
Strong advocates of the Peterson non-proposal and strong opponents all tend to see the zoning proposals through the lens of how they will impact the Godfrey/Peterson plan. Not only is that not how, it seems, many of the PC members see the proposals, I'd also argue that that is not how they should see the proposals.
At least that's how I'd feel if I were on the Planning Commission, but, sadly, Hizzonah did not see fit to appoint me. Maybe next time....
Normally, if one has an idea that one needs either other people's money, or other people's cooperation, or both, to make it a reality, one goes in with something concrete.
Peterson has not submitted a Master Plan. If he did submit a Master Plan, and we approved it, it would be our right to hold him to it.
Instead, Peterson has requested that we officially approve a "process" that discusses changing our zoning, laws, general plan, etc. Once we do that, I think he has a right to hold us to it, and since the proposed Mixed Use zoning change has within it the fact that it can only be designated for a specific project, movement on our part toward making this change could be construed as an intent to deal regarding Peterson's specific project.
(Has our legal team presented the Peterson team with an agreement that actions on our part do not constitute an agreement to do anything?? Those kinds of agreements do exist. Think about that.)
We do not need anything from Peterson in order that he develop his resort in Malan's Basin. For one thing, it is in Weber County. It is not in Ogden City.
On the contrary, he needs things from us in order to develop his Grand Plan, which involves much more than Malan's Basin. He needs our land, perhaps our water, perhaps our sewer system, changes in our laws and status quo, and also our agreement to by-pass the processes we now have in place with which we have made other developers comply.
(Has our legal team ascertained that we probably will not get sued if we suddenly make allowances for Peterson that we have refused to make for other developers? Think about that one, too.)
The party who needs cooperation in order to proceed is not the party who controls the situation. We have not only a right, but an obligation, to know exactly what we're agreeing to, and exactly what this development will entail in process and consist of upon completion. These things are not in Proposals, or Development Agreements, or Pre-Development Agreements. They are in Master Plans, and the final Development Agreement is drawn up afterwards and in it is a pledge to comply with the Master Plan.
Just as Ogden City is mandated by Utah Law to comply with its Master Plan.
The Mayor at the last Council meeting hinted that we are about to get a proposal. If we do, we should have Peterson agree in writing that looking at it and at a Master Plan does not constitute any agreement on our part to do anything, and then request a Master Plan if and only if agreement is reached that looking at that plan does not obligate us.
There is nothing wrong with this traditional method of doing business. Even if Development Agreements and Pre-Development Agreements are somewhat customary, and much has been said about "being fair" to Mr. Peterson, I would submit that it is not fair of him to demand that we cooperate with and perhaps obligate ourselves to "a project," of which we have been given no specifics at all.
For over a year, we have heard that there are "silent partners," or "private investors," involved in the Peterson project and in the proposed gondola project. It has also been imparted to us that Mr. Lesham is investing in Ogden projects. Should it be found that Mr. Lesham is playing an integral part in either the Peterson or the gondola projects, and should it be found that his recent misfortune has caused a change in his ability to play this integral part, there would be even more reason for us to pull back.
In view of this recent development, therefore, if Peterson wishes to pursue this project, it is time for him to disclose.
It is time for him to disclose exactly what this project will consist of, and where the much-touted "half a billion dollars" is coming from, and this should come to us in the form of a Master Plan including financial statements ensuring completion of the project, which our Council should be able to review in its entirety for as long as it takes, with professional accounting and legal advice if necessary, and with absolutely no obligation present on either side should we agree to look at it.
In other words, it's not all about him. It's about us, too.
Strongly agree, Dian. And the legal counsel the Council should seek, should not, IMHO, be anyone connected with the City.
That's like DiCaria 'investigating' Matt and Jon!
Wonder if Pete and Lesham have a "connection?" How about Bobby's gush that these two visionaries would be together on Peterson's student housing plan? The one where the kids don't have a kitchen in their dorm areas so they can bond while eating out! Also, weren't there supposed to be 2000 dorm rooms downtown?? The YM and YWCA's don't have that many!
If we ever assemble again, your situation in Ogden City will definitely be the next episode in our ongoing whack at government stupidity!
Here we have everybody in a USA midlands town scurrying around, setting up government processeses, trying to react to an offer that hasn't even been made, wearing funny hats and taking themselves seriously all the while.
We'll be closely watching all this, in the event we decide do another satirical series.
There's a new market for such parody now we think, thanks to a hilarious new film entitled Borat.
We're always looking for lucrative ways to display human stupidity in uniquely American slapstick style.
We also love the implied Mayoral/Isreali Mafia connection!
What will you have without John Cleese in stiletto heels?
Or do we just supply the heels from the administration?
I suppose that if I were putting together aplan as complex and costly as the gondola, I'd certainly take my time putting it together so that when it got into the hands that began the decision making process, it would be as flawless as I could make it. All the "i"s dotted; all the "t"s crossed. I'd want it donw right; but that just me. I wouldn't be in any rush to just throw something together because Sharon and some of these people who profess to know EVERYTHING feel it should be done sooner rather than later or anything like that.
There are so many intertwined issues that effect the entire community that the initial plan presentation simply demands that it be done properly. And being the developer, that is my call, not a bunch of anti-progressives that spend the bulk of their day writing to each other on the blog. It reminds me of the days of CB radio....damn near every car had one, which enabled one pal to keep track of another pal through a series of numerical commands and requests. Didn't take long for that one to die out either.
It's a sad day when all one hears is the same tune being played over and over again, really saying nothing except for the fact that this bunch is against a gondola, or any other progressive idea, that just might do some good for our city, yet is summarily and arbitrarily dismissed simply because it comes from the "other side."
I wonder if that side enjoyed what they saw and how the town was during the last twenty some years when NOTHING was being built and no investers were kicking in the doors of City Hall? These people offer no alternatives or no fresh ideas; scoff at those who do; and basically just pat one another on the back as they attempt to be overly profound in their descent.
"... that this bunch is against a gondola, or any other progressive idea..."
What rubbish.
Dear Other Sider:
Just a few points to keep in mind. Mr. Peterson has been promising that his "plan" will be made fully public and presented to the city for well over a year now. I count, I think, three different deadlines he's offered over the past year and a half by which he would present his plan. He's missed every one so far.
Second:if the plan was un-ready, the necessary studies not done, the details not in place, then we have to wonder why the Mayor and his Lift Ogden Amen Chorus began touting the as-yet non-existent plan, and running an expensive marketing campaign for it, when they did not yet know what the plan would ultimately involve, or even it would be feasible at all.
Finally, I note that Mr. Peterson has asked the Planning Commission and City Council to make zoning changes, to alter the usual approval process for considering such projects and to take on other responsibilities, at taxpayer expense, for doing some of the necessary studies that will be required if the plan is to succeed, all before the plan has been submitted to the planning commission or the council.
I also note that you have chosen, not wisely I would say, to repeat the incessant Lift Ogden/Godfrey talking point claiming that the choices are the Peterson proposal [whatever if might be, and we don't know yet] on the one hand, and no growth on the other.
Permit me to suggest you take a look sometime at www.smartgrowthogden.com for other approaches to growing Ogden's business base, and tax base, and improving life for its residents, approaches that do not involve selling off the largest park in the city and the last large tract of openspace public land on the benches for development as a gated community of up scale vacation villas. I know, I know, the "Peterson or nothing" song is convenient for the Lift Ogden Amen Chorus and the Mayor to keep chanting. The fact that it is demonstrably not true, seems not to bother them. I hope, however, it bothers you. It should.
MR B
Please give me a call
317-0017
ANTI-PROGRESSIVE????????????????????
What a bunch of foolishness. Most everyone on this blog has offered up alternative views of this project that DO NOT involve selling off foothill open space preserving it for all generations to come. To think that building vacation homes up there, regardless of commitment to municipal access to golf, would somehow enhance Ogden, the East Bench, or Utah is sheer callousness and stupidity. The neighorhood has spoken loudly. YOU, Other Sider are so far off the lame chart if you live in the East Bench. Please move to some other golf investment community. We have a real neighborhood 'round here with people who have been here awhile and like it that way. Most of the newcomers like it that way too. There is PLENTY of distressed property in Ogden for those with such community spirit to invest in and renovate that will make far more difference in our community than this nonsense. So get off you lame ass and make a contribution to Ogden and quit trying to Cali-Fornicate us here.
As for progressive, it is the writers on this blog who have taken the most progressive stance in this whole proposal. I guarantee we have done more research on gondolas, trams, ski areas, transit, TOD, land use, slope issues , water , sewer, drainage, downstream impact, etc., etc.
What the hell do you know or have brought to the table.
The true anti-progressives are the LO chorus who assume this plan was golden and flawless from day one. Not a single suggestion or question posed from the community has been addressed by the developer or the mayor.
I personally did much of the early gondola research for the Lift Ogden website. I posted all that crap about the benefits that each individual gondola system around has done for the local community. South Tahoe, Mammoth, Telluride, etc. I am familiar with all of them having spent a great deal of time riding those very gondolas. NONE, and I mean, NONE of the conditions that make Telluride, Kellogg, Mammoth, South Tahoe a success are present in the Peterson Plan for Ogden.
If you would like to take time in dialogue to address the SPECIFIC conditions that make those successful and Ogden not a candidate I will gladly exchange with you valid data and we WILL stick to the POINT.
No what is your story, Other Sider...
If the guy who's methodically soaked up 28 prime downtown properties in or near the Emerald City River project within the last year isn't regarded as a "central player," one wonders who is.
And we hope Mr. Godfrey isn't suggesting that Leshem wasn't on the inside track to participate in Godfrey's gated community scam.
Too bad Schwebke didn't report whether Godfreys lips were moving, when he characterized one of Ogden City's most prominent land speculaters as a mere cheerleader.
I would call an appraised $1.7 million investment in the Riverfront Project a central role. It certainly is not a peripheral role.
I wrote a couple of weeks ago about a rumor that the city had run out of money for the Riverfront Project and private investors had come in. This must be part of it.
Amazing that the Mayor would refer to this investment as "cheerleading." And there was that video, too, that Hitzig and Leshem allegedly produced gratis.
Those things are about a bit more than shouting rah-rah and shaking pom-poms, wouldn't you think?
Heard about a letter Peterson sent to the city council? Anyone else seen it? It is so unbelievably lame and rambling. It is damn embarassing to read it knowing it is coming from an individual who is proposing a half billion dollar investment here. Embarassing because our city has been lead by the mayor to pay attention to someone with so little self esteem that he must cite so much past stuff as a GENERAL MANAGER of a ski area that supposedly makes him qualified to build what is proposed. It is so defensive and disrespectful of those who have posed legitimate questions which he takes no time to address. Most of the letter is justifications to bolster his expertise. Yet all he bullies the city council to do is to have faith in him. Not the way this kind of thing is done Chris...
Any corporate or well funded outfit that would be doing this would already have given us answers and involved the community. They also would have at least some rudimentary site and business plans.
In this letter Peterson again dredges up comparisons to another ski area, Mountain High, Wrightwood, California. Seems when the comparisons to all the rest of the locations have been roundly dismissed due to having little in common to this location, he finds another with a little in common, but again, the comparisons fall far short.
The gist of his comparison is that Mountain High is a very small resort. Quite comparable to his Malan's Basin. From an acreage standpoint, yes. His comparison is that Mt. High recieves over 500,000 skier visits a year on under 300 skiable acres. Nice...
Mt. High is located less than 15 miles off of I-15 in San Bernadino County, CA. There are some 15 MILLION people within a 3 hour drive. 2 million within an hour. Mountain High creatively sells a 4hour ticket , something that few ski areas are willing to try including any in Utah. This is how Mt. High gets the numbers. They have the cheapest season passes in SoCal, less than half the price of Snowbasin's and likely Malan's with the extreme development costs. Mt High also has little competition. Yes there are several more ski areas in SoCal but NONE of them have the access as easy as MtHigh. Big Bear and SnowSummit are reached by a treacherous mountain drive that is often closed in bad weather. MtHigh never gets road closures. They also have night skiing until 10pm and midnight on weekends. This is one partying mountain. They have concerts and contests. The action never stops.
Mt. High operates on nearly 100% manmade snow. They have extensive terrain parks and even a gangsta element. It is SoCal.
Mt. High ALSO has perfect Northern Exposure and is treecovered for good shade. It holds snow until May.
So please someone tell me what about Mt High resembles the Malan's Proposal. No gondola up the mountain, no gondola to the mountain from San Berdoo(only 30 miles away!!!) If they only had our mayor. We have maybe a half a million within an hours drive and plenty of ski area choices that are simply better. Mt High is a "local" SoCal ski area. Malan's supposedly is to be marketed to ski touristas. Don't think they'd be interested. With the pace of chic upgrades at virtually all Utah Ski Areas Malan's will be years behind.
So Chris Peterson's letter was adressing feasibility of the ski area he wants in Malan's. Well, Chris, dogonnit, just build the durn thing with your dough...if you can get WSU to sell you a base station. You are perfectly convinced that it is feasible who is stopping you. I personally think it is feasible. I think you can make a very profitable business out of a limited development in Malan's. So far you have problems with those words "limited development" You CANNOT have our benchlands. Your ONLY key to success is to keep it limited. That is what I proposed when I was part of the chorus. A spartan wilderness like ski and nature lodge with extreme tours guided to all the gnarly descents on this side. This is what would suit Malan's and Ogden. It is also my view that you are getting in far too deep, thinking you can make a go of reconfiguring the golf course and building homes on such limited acreage and extremely challenging slope and soil conditions.
What becomes so obvious in all this analysis is that Peterson wants to try this at all costs. That tells me ONE thing. He wants this whole deal sealed so it can be SOLD to the highest bidder as development rights. That is where the real money os and he knows it.
I also think Malan's Basin would make one damn fine municipal ski area. Want to do something for the community Chris. Build it and let all the kids learn to ride and ski for free if they get decent grades or some such incentive. Involve the community. Teach kids to ice climb. Teach them sustainable forestry., even summer community gardening workshops in Malan's Basin. Trail building, bicycling, nature workshops, the list goes on. Instead of foo-foo spas for pampered euros make this a community enhancement.
Damn I have so many creative ideas I maybe qualify as progressive.
Why is it when I post I get none of the response from Curt or the new guy Other side...or bobby or bernie. Come on boys lets match up point for point. gettin' quiet round here. Ya'll just pop in temporarily with such stale retreads for remarks and never follow through. Come on, bring yer crew to back you up. There is so much ground to cover.
See ya later. Hope you'll be round. Gotta go trim fruit trees for the day.
Tod Transit...
Great points as always. Is there anyway that the letter Peterson wrote could be made public and perhaps posted right here on this blog? That would sure say alot. I agree with you TT, Peterson should build his resort if he believes in it and let all of the extras come later if it is truly necessary or makes sense. He wants it all and now. He wants us to trust him and yet he offers nothing. The park and open space and golf course is not for sale Peterson. Perhaps you should first try WSU and see if they will give up their land before you pursue Ogden City and ask for so much. He has the entire city working overtime to accomodate his needs and wants from the Mayor to all the secretaries. He has tied up City Council, City Planning Commission, Planning Dept, Redevelopment, Mayors office, City Attorneys office, Patterson, and on it goes. How much does this man want before he will offer one tangible item or realistic idea or single penny. There is nothing to show for all his hot air. Trust him? Alright, that should be enough for City Council to vote in all changes of ordinances, zoning and development laws and give him a complete open ticket to do whatever he wants to our most valuable lands. I say he needs to show us something to trust. Lets just vote this thing out once and for all and get it over with and we can get on with the important business of Ogden such as our downtown revitalization, supporting businesses that are here in this community making it happen now, increasing value in our neighborhoods and improving them, infrastructure, crime, gangs, education and many other important concerns. We do not need another resort to make Ogden flourish. It is already flourishing thanks to the many small business owners that are investing and putting their time and money where there mouth is. Perhaps Peterson should just do the same. Prove to us that there is something to trust.
~ogden iii's~
Would it be too negative and backward or too progressive an idea courting a good marker into the downtown area??
Would it be negatie to suggest that the mayor get his head out of those gondola cables and get the upper east side with th orange water onto the city grid so they can have CLEAN water?
I hope I'm not too negative in pointing out that WE HAVE A *&&^%$#%^&*& OF CRIME PROBLEM: MURDERS, DRUGS, RAPES, BURGLARY, MUGGINGS in this town???
Let's say that Peterson DID build those 2nd homes for the rich folks to vacation in....how will those homes remain safe? Unvandalized?
Who would be so stupid as to purchase a million dollar 'footprint' home here, and leave it unattended when crime is rampant?
Gee, soutshider and all you dopery anon's...get real here. Ogden has real problems to address and pimping for a joke like Pete is disgraceful. OInthe olden days, this skunk would'a been run out of town before sundown.
Well Tod, etc., I keep hearing about the alternatives being laid out, but where are they? I'm not completely convinced that Peterson's concept, as we know it, is completely viable or not. Aparently, you all miss my point, which is: present us with some money making, tax base growth alternatives. Enough with the little quips and insults, that's not what I'm after. I'm after what you consider to ber a positive influence on our city, that will benefit, as I suggested, the entirey.
If you can't present something of that nature, then fine. But until you can, please cease and desist with all the trash talk and hyperbole that really has little or no foundation.
After reading the posts, in answer to my post, it seems that Curmudgeon was the only person who offered anything remotely profound, Yet even he missed the point, when he went into "taxpayer expense," that in ANY developmental project, both the developer and the municipality have various expenses to satisfy their end of the obligations.
So far, all we have is Tod Transit offering up some highly questionable thoughts, set down in quite poor grammatical context, and the usual run of the mill "grist" from Sharon, Dian, and the others who are just flat against the gondola and or anything else we from the "other side present." But, in all deference, that's the tone of this blog and I'm really not too surprised.
Little tidbit on a lunch break from the pruners and chainsaw.
"Rupert Hitzig, playing Lorentz's romantic interest, is also hampered by too much dialogue and a weak singing voice. He tries hard with the one song he has that packs any punch, "Lost Another Man," but effort, unfortunately, is not enough."
dated 1959 Harvard Crimson. Sing to us Producer Rupe.
The alternatives are that he get land from WSU and build his resort or whatever he wants on his land.
He has shown no more case for selling the public's land to fund the gondola, that is supposed to assure his resort's success...than I have shown for a resort only.
My point is that neither Peterson nor I have shown solid numbers for his plan or an alternative so it is a DRAW...
Therefore both Peterson's plan AND ANY alternative share the same lack of legitamacy.
By the same token, Both Peterson's Plan AND ANY alternatives deserve EQUAL legitimacy if indeed we want to go forward.
I was addressing you Other Sider
I'm going to suggest that we now refer to Peterson's "plan" as the peterson alternative. Since I just made the case for ANY other alternative deserving equal legitimacy, based on the logic that NO alternative INCLUDING peterson's has been backed up with any numbers. My plan or Kent Jorgensen's or Curmudgeon's or anyone elses are all on equal footing at this juncture.
Our reality is founded on PR slogans, cultural cliches and faith.
Why should we ever enter into a debate involving facts?
Girded with faith, appropriate facts are revealed to us in visions from the Id.
We reject fact based arguments.
We craft our own reality.
Visions from the id...how apt.
Let Pete stick to his original plan: build HIS gondola to Malan's, on HIS nickel. No annexation to the city. Cripes...we don't have enuf money nor infrastructure to take care of the folks who live here now.
A MARKET downtown is what I tried to type earlier. I realize it may not be 'sexy and cool' to have hotel guests who may want to buy a box of cookies mingling with 'those' people. But it's just a thot that the mayor may want to look after the needs of all the subjects in his kingdom.
How sexy and cool is it to have a lawsuit against the city cuz someone was mugged, beaten, or raped because they dared to go to the Junction and the gangbangers, loiterers, and other bums were allowed to hang around that area?
Probably not progressive enuf for you, South..., but cops walking the beat downtown, on bikes or even horses would lessen crime, foster goodwill between the police and the citizens and provide children with good role models.
TT is right....bring forth the evidence of a PLAUSIBLE plan with attendant studies, financials, etc...until then, our Council and PC should have NOTHING TO SAY TO HIM, ELLISON and GODFREY. Wellll, hit the road, Pete, would be appropriate.
Yes Sharon, A Grocery Market downtown. Better yet a cooperative grocery. Underwritten by the RDA or whatever community goodwill finance vehicle. I also suggested this months ago to the mayor and on this blog. For those of you who missed the fabulous seventies co-op groceries were the thing in college towns. They have been pushed out by Whole Foods and Wild Oats but the concept is exactly what the poverty stricken in this city need. This is bootstraps sixties stuff. There are poor in America and a more than a few of them in Central Ogden. The Co-op groceries I was involved in were largely staffed by people who are on public assistance working voluntarily and recieved discount or food credits. It was a community center where the poor also learned to eat something other than pork rinds and soda. By the way we are disrespecting the several small mom and pop groceries already in midtown. Would it hurt to give the community a chance to be a part of it's destiny by having a community market right in the center of town at 24th and Monroe.
other sider,
you stated "present us with some money making, tax base growth alternatives."
again I'll make the case that the Peterson Alternative has not been put to this test any more than the other alternatives.
and anyway you seem to have skimmed past dozens of alternatives presented here. Let me state to you again, I suggest Peterson get some land from WSU who own the best possible gondola base acreage and he gets not only the base but all the lease space that the city will let him build there for ski shops etc. I submit that he can earn at least as much from such plum commercial property as his nonsensical golf course ALTERNATIVE. You do not need calculators or business plans to know that commercial space at the base of his gondola, like any well located commercial space in any city is highly lucrative. So I say now, even that plan presented by me, TT, is backed by a business plan for his commercial space. That is far more than his proposal. I also submit that his commercial space will provide the necessary cash flow to build Ogden Municipal ski area and nature center. He is a fool to not consider this. After all, The LO chorus is exactly right that we would be the ONLY city in the world with this kind of ski access. It is a good idea and it will fly. HE JUST CANNOT HAVE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE HAVE THE PARKLANDS.
Hey Sharon,
What do you mean by "Gee, soutshider and all you dopery anon's...get real here." What have I posted that you think is not "real?"
If you don't have anything better than to go back and dig up reviews from my college show, TT, take the time to listen to me now.
www.bizazzmedia.com/ludwig
Other Sider:
OK, fair enough. Three points: first, when I talked about "taxpayer expense" I was referring to the prep work it seems, from his letter, that Mr. Peterson wants the Council/City to take up in preparation for receiving his proposal and deciding if it is feasible and wise for Ogden to support it. Of course, no question, once a development project is approved, the City will incure some expences, and legitimate ones, as part of the development project. It's the demand for up front before approval work he apparently wants the city to undertake that seems over the line to me.
Alternatives: well, the obvious one is putting in the streetcar line from downtown to WSU and McKayDee via 24th and Harrison. This is a technology with a proven record in mid-sized cities of generating substantial investment in both residential properties and business development. In short, it works, and has worked, in many cities. The technology has a track record. The downtown to WSU gondola [which the Mayor espouses] has no track record as a business generator in mid-sized American cities, no track record in the US as a successful transit system. And I note that the Mayor has abandoned his earlier claim that it is or will be primarily a public transit system. UTA concurs in that judgement, which means it will not be operated with UTA subsidies as public transit if it is built [whereas the streetcar line UTA recognizes as a transit system and it will operate with the same kind of subsidies UTA provides to other public transit systems in the state, both rail and bus.]
And of course there is Mercy Livermore and Kent Jorgensen's "Option B," which would involve Ogden or WSU selling Mr. Peterson a small tract at the head of 36th Street for his up-mountain gondola base station. That site is already served by six UTA busses an hour between it and downtown in both directions. Mr. Geiger himself offered Grouse Mountain [Vancouver, BC] as an example of a smallish but successful ski venue, and the public transit that connets it to Vancouver consists of public busses. Hard to see why what works there as ski transit [busses] won't work here.
Mr. Peterson could then develop his Malan's propery as he likes [with his own money or investment capital he raises in the capital markets]. He get's his Malan's Basin development; we get to keep the Mt. Ogden benchlands as public owned open space. What's not to like?
There are alternatives, Other Sider. Not to mention what I think the evidence shows already is and will continue to be the real driver of a propety tax base increase in Ogden city: the arrival of Frontrunner.
Producer,
Just havin' a little fun. No doubt the path from actor to producer was interesting. Was that you singing? Why didn't you sing in the Ogden Promo DVD? That would have topped off the soap opera-like production with all the players and explosions. I laughed at the dramatic tone of it. Embarrassed to show it to friends. If that were given to corporations being courted I dare say they have had a chuckle. I would have done it in ski-snowboard video form and enhance the beauty and assets of Ogden instead we get a very brief helicopter shot and alot of lame personalities.
The mayor has made a point several times that these theoretical ski visitors will not like to ride a bus to the malan's foothill base from downtown. He should take the short trip to Snowbird on any morning and watch lines of nearly full busses unloading all morning. That bus ride is substantially longer than any ride from downtown to a foothill base. The same can be seen at Brighton, Solitude, Alta.
Ya see, TT, you keep going on a ski resort/gondola/streetcar system/etc. as some kind of alternative. This has been done; it's yesterday's news; no matter how you try to spin it or cutsie it, this ski business stuff is already on the table. Either by virtue of the Geigers or Peterson. What my question to you is, now go slow and try to understand: what is your ALTERNATIVE, an ALTERNATIVE that will broaden Ogden's tax base and make the City some real dollars? Just stopping the gondola, or the ski hub idea, or whatever, IS NOT an ALTERNATIVE. Spinning CP's gondola into some other version of using his own land and not the Public Parklands, is not an ALTERNATIVE.
Anyone can say what you've said, and it goes nowhere, really, but I want to know what it is you "naysayers" claim will make the City some money. Just stopping a project, or hoping to do so, is not a money maker. Bringing in an industry, a company, something of a VIABLE ALTERNATIVE, is what I want to hear.
You profess to be intelligent folks, hell Sharon knows all about running a council and hotel guests shopping with "those people;" some lay claim to have knowledge about production companies; others claim to know about marketing and promotion; and everyone is having a swell time at Mr. Leshem's expense....but where's the beef? Where are the dollars coming from, via your ideas, projects, etc., that will help the town prosper? Let's see what you have going that is off a positive nature, not just a "stoppage" because there's a golf course involved or a community plan that needs a look-see.
Step up to the plate, TT, Curmudgeon, Sharon, and present something with a positive spin that will help out good old Ogden, revenue wise.
This is simple stuff, but I just don't recall hearing anything of this nature coming from you good people, you "gentle readers."
Other Sider you are a blockhead. Now all the alternatives have no merit because that is not what is being proposed. You must be Bob. That has been his tactic all along. So the ONLY alternative in your view is Peterson/Godfrey. Some choice. Just like the War in Iraq. So we cannot suggest alternatives that SAVE OUR PARKLAND as though that is a dumb idea. It's Pete's way or the Hiway. Well it'll be the Hiway for him with that approach and that is exactly what is materializing as Peterson overextends his welcome. You say it must "make the City some real dollars" I do not think the object here is to make the city some dollars. Of course you seem perfectly comfortable making Peterson a few dollars.
"Let's see what you have going that is off a positive nature, not just a "stoppage" because there's a golf course involved or a community plan that needs a look-see."
I have already laid out plenty that is of a positive nature. I have said i am all for his building his resort. I am all for THE KIDS OF THIS CITY getting their share of the action. I have suggested Community Markets and skateparks instead of expensive skydive toys.What part of that constructive alternative do you find to not be constructive. All you want is to hand over our park to build homes for people who may never live here. Sheez DUDE, talk about a NAYSAYER You are the one who is denying anything of a constructive and creative nature. Such dull senses. Have a valium.
Again you are one thick blockhead. Oak or Maple? Maybe Cocobolo it's the densest.
Other Sider:
So, the trolley system and Peterson-developed gondola [WSU to Malan's Basin only] are "yesterday's news" and "not alternatives?"
Gee, what fun. Can I play too? Here's my entry: "By now, Peterson's oft-promised and still undelivered proposal is yesterday's news, as is the Mayor's downtown gondola idea. They've been yammering about them nearly two years now, and they are still dead in the water. So those are not real alternatives. In fact, the only plan that has been studied by impartial reviewers [Wasatch Front Regional Council] and endorsed by them, and by the Ogden City Planning Commission as the best plan for Ogden is the trolley proposal from downtown to WSU along 24th Street and Harrison Blvd . In fact, no alternative has even been presented to the Planning Commission or to the Council or the the public yet.
So, if we want to quibble over what has actually been proposed, and is "on the table", it's the Wasatch Front Regional Council's study endorsing the trolley line as Ogden's best transit solution. There is nothing else as yet on any table the public has been allowed to see.
other sider,
you also say "this ski business stuff is already on the table." I really do not know what that has to do with anything talked about today. I've never said that is a bad idea. For one, NOBODY here has taken issue with Ogden as a hub of the ski industry. Bring them on. If they think they need the town gondola to make Ogden attractive enough to relocate here they are way behind the curve , as are you. Ogden is already the most attractive location on the Wasatch Front. We already have excellent access to a mighty fine resort. I was at the Amer press conference. No one has mentioned how Mike Dowse had to be nudged to say something referring to the gondola and the mayor. I thought that moment was hilarious as the local guy carefully fed him a leading question eliciting the crucial gondola plug after he had pretty much said his piece with no mention of the gondola.
I think the whole damn ski and snowboard industry should be here. They are slackjaw fools for locating where ever trendy place they think is better in terms of great access to the recreational resources that are a part of their business. As for taking that afternoon run at Malan's via some town gondola. Sounds cool until you realize all the torrid details we have spent months pouring over, from the gawdawful 35 -40 minute gondola ride just to get to the Malan's Basin base area to the extremely slushy turning icy conditions in the shade, this is all fantasy stuff cooked up by a bunch of part-time and non-skiers. The real hard core know the score and the best way to get the first tracks. I guarantee you our new neighbors from Amer will be making the Snowbasin drive while Bob and Curt twiddle their thumbs waiting to get up the mountain in their highly touted gondola. We'll be in freshies about the time they pass over WSU. I'll have navigated my snowboard over almost 3000 acres while they sashay ski their way through 200 acres of chunder chop dodging the My High style crowds that Chris Peterson envisions. I moved from a resort that was crowded, it's darn dangerous.
Hear me clearly Other Sider. There is very little difference between your vision and mine. Selling the golf course for ANY reason is a non-starter. So we look for alternatives so that we can entertain Chris Peterson's intentions as thay are largely GOOD for the city. You, the Mayor or Peterson have not and never will be able to make a logical case for a town gondola and ...bingo! ...that just let us off the hook on the golf course sale. His resort will stand on it's own and it can be a part of the Ogden experience. With those entangling issues finally put to rest the city can carry on with it's transit plans and redevelopment plans. Chris Peterson can build a resort. Look...there is no reason why his resort cannot make it without the stupid gondola.
So what have I said here that strikes you as naysayeth or negative. Everything I am saying is encouraging constructive action.
...I want to know what it is you "naysayers" claim will make the City some money. Just stopping a project, or hoping to do so, is not a money maker. Bringing in an industry, a company,
something of a VIABLE ALTERNATIVE, is what I want to hear...
Well, you won't hear it from me.
Instead, what you will hear is:
Reasons City is Desperate for Money:
1. Too many employed in local government for a city this size.
2. Too high of salaries for some of those thusly employed.
3. City ownership of too much property upon which it pays no property taxes whatsoever.
4. Inflow of tax dollars into projects.
Solution:
1. Downsize city government.
2. Divest some of vast inner city real estate holdings, putting them in the hands of private enterprise which will pay taxes on them.
3. Cut salaries of upper and middle management in city government.
4. Stop spending tax dollars on projects that will appeal only to small segments of the population and instead use them to increase the standard of living, via clean water, public transportation, needed services, etc.
5. Hang on to every inch of open space we have. It is at a premium in other cities, and is therefore our greatest asset.
In other words, reduce unnecessary expenditures, increase working capital by property sales which will also bring tax revenue, invest in durable things which will improve everyone's lives in the long run instead of in luxury items, and protect your assets.
It is not the role of the government to generate revenue for the purpose of continuing to propagate itself, and it is also not the role of government to develop land, donate to corporations, or manage a city as if it is a real life version of the Civilization computer game.
It is also not the role of the citizens who live in a city to sacrifice needed services, open space, and infrastructure in order to support land development, corporate donations, and total governmental control over who gets to have businesses within that city and who doesn't.
If local city government is having trouble feeding itself, that is possibly because of flaws in the manner in which it is being managed. We in Weber County already have one of the highest tax rates in Utah.
And so, no---we don't have to suggest alternatives for revenue generating mechanisms, the revenue from which will most likely be used to create bigger government, higher government salaries, and create more unfair business competition.
Instead, we are communicating what we want and need to continue living here. Not for the propagation of our government by increasing its revenue, but for the betterment of our quality of life. And bear in mind, the needs and wants of any other people who arrive here to live will probably be identical to ours.
Brovo Dian, Brovo.
Get back to the basics, get out of the real estate business, get rid of those high rollers on the government teat.
Is the City really in the business to make money? or provide the basics of clean water, sewer, fire and police, and decent streets? I say stop fuding and hawking the city to the hilt for a few undependable, irrationale, and flakey businesses that enjoy touching the mayor's privates. Not everyone shares the vision that so few have.
O.K. "Other Sider" how about a trolley or street car as Curmudgeon suggests. First, EVERYWHERE a street car system was built, millions of dollars flowed into that city with NEW businesses along the street car's route. The gondola will not bring those million of dollars along its route the way the Mayor and Peterson have it planned. Second, Ogden will receive State and Federal funds to help with the street car -- Neither State nor Federal funding is available for the gondola. Third, it will cost much more for the gondola to be installed than the street car. A street car system was built for a total cost of $17,000,000. Portland's less than a mile gondola had cost them $57 million the last time I heard. Maintenance costs would be much less with the street car than the gondola and the street car is more dependable than a gondola that can't be ridden in a high wind storm, which we have more than our share.
Let's talk reality, "Other Sider." We've heard nothing but bloated and inflated figures for everything connected with Peterson's project. There's a saying attributed to Ben Franklin that goes: "A penny saved is a penny earned." The street car saves the taxpayers of Ogden money in initial installation costs, in maintenance costs, in actual "up" or running time besides bringing in new businesses along its route. I would say that the street car is far superior in being the best economical bet for Ogden compared to the gondola, that will do nothing but cost the city money!
Producer,
hey.....caught the Esser wine video! Ya...'twas goot fun....stick to that stuff and not propaganda videos about Ogden.
I see that the lots for the River Project will be up for sale. Didn't Lesham grab around 28 of them for a measly 1.7 Mil? Wonder what the others cost now?
Well Other Sider,
It's pretty quiet this morning. Is he the most recent LiftOgden pop-in. We're taking all comers here. Sort of a pre-holiday free-for-all.
LLLLLLLLLLet's get ready to RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRumblllllllllllle....
Who's filling the challenger's corner this morning,
Will it be Bobby the ex-GI-rine
Curt the Raincoat guy
9th floor-Matty
Pete the piper
Dustin "Chaps" Chapman
Step now boys...Tell us the latest twist in the Ogden Gondola Vision. You gotta say something new, though or you'll be disqualified...No retread nonsense and it ain't goin' to Snowbasin.
Sharon,
No doubt Lesham wants to unload before they get seized or frozen. Good move. Either way that will have some effect on the local market. He was mentioned repeated by the Geigers as the go-to-guy for the money. He was the one that would supposedly bear the burden of covering the gap in the gondola funding after the Mayor fire-sales the golf course to Peterson.
Well TT;
Methinks we're in Little Cicero, eh?
Kind of a Damon Runyan play without the pretty girls, good lyrics and snappy players.
But, the casting director sure has brot in the shady characters and hucksters galore.
Permit me to gently remind all that Mr. L. has not as yet been found guilty of so much as jaywalking, much less tax evasion or any other form of corruption. Building fantasies about "Cicero On The Wasatch," however much fun it might be, seems way over the top. That his charging has raised questions about his integrity and [by extension] questions about his involvement with the mayor and his real estate speculation schemes, is certainly true enough. But at this point, they remain only questions, though I grant, interesting ones.
Let me add as well that buying low and selling high is neither criminal conduct nor unethical. It's sound investment policy.
Curm....I don't think you are aware of the MANY schemes and scams perpetrated aginst the citizenry! (Not speaking specifically of Mr. Lesham here). I cannot divulge on this blog, but certainly can steer you to those who know FIRST HAND.
It's good, I suppose, to come in with the voice of caution and fair play,...kinda like 'can't we all just play in the sandbox without throwing sand in our little friends' faces?'...however, Curm, you always turn around and agree with the posters, but first issue the caveat. Neat
On Mixed Use Zoning
Very interesting and thoughtful piece in today's NY Times on mixed use zoning developments as a form of urban renewal. Under what circumstances it seems to work, and under what circumstances it seems not to work. Link
here.
Whole piece is worth reading, I think, but let me highlight one small squib of it here. The quote is from Don Wood, CEO of Federal Reality, a REIT that has built a number of mixed-use developments around the country:
Mr. Wood noted that the company "has learned from its past mistakes and difficulties" with mixed-use projects, which work best in high-density areas with relatively affluent populations. "Everyone wants to do mixed-use these days, but it's not a magic elixir, " he cautioned.
The full article goes into upside and downside of this kind of development, with examples. Interesting.
Transit, what is it about "alternative" that you don't understand? It was a simple question I posed, asking for an alternative proposal should the gondola idea fail, regardless of how that may or may not happen. But instead of offering an "alternative," you write volumes about Malan's Basin and slushy snow, treetcars systems, etc., and all the rest, WITHOUT offering a unique, money maker for Ogden. You took the opportunity to slam me, calling me a blockhead or something, and seemed more taken with passing out insults rather than ideas (and, if I wrote like you, exemplifying such poor grammatical craftsmanship, I'd be a bit more careful about pointing fingers at ANYONE----you do need some help in basic writing skills, but that's another story for another time).
Anyhow TT, let's try once again to (1) be civil; and (2) offer up an "ALTERNATIVE" to the gondola, or whatever you want to call it, that will assist Ogden in broadening it's tax base, putting more money in the city coffers, and giving the populace and tourist some kind of draw that will attract them and bank some money into the City's account.
If i'm going too fast for you here, just cease and desist with the verbal garbage, tell the readers that you have no alternative, and we'll move on and hope to find somebody who does. Easy stuff this; no need to keep beating that dead horse that you've killed over and over again. Your whole premise makes me smile as much as good old Sharon, she who professes to know so much and have all of these little secrets on people and their scams and schemes that if she let these things out, all of these heads would roll and the whole place would go up in smoke.
And by the way, there's much more to life than jumping on this idiotic blog the first thing in the morning. If that's what pumps ya up, I feel sorry for you. There's a time and a place for everything, TT, especially spending an inordinate amount of time doings blogs.
So you're saying that since your dumb idea, other side, which you refuse to support by arguing the merits, and which has been completely rejected by the smart and rational people all over town...
requires us to come up with an alternative dumb idea?
Why?
Where do the rules say that?
Your idea is dumb. The community says no. That should be the end of it, seems to me. We have no obligation to respond at all, especially since you've refused to debate your dumb idea on the merits in the first place.
It's not like we're dealing with some major emergency here.
Ah'm confused.
Well, Othersider...do you have a ghost writer for this blog? Heaven forbid that YOU would be caught in your jammies so early in the day yakking at us UNgrammatical slobs.
And, where the *&$%^* did you get the idea that I have so many "secrets on people and their scams and schemes...and that would cause heads to roll...". Hmmmmm? Is YOUR head feeling a bit wobbly perchance? Ah, you bestow powers on me that I didn't know I have!
I guess you skipped over Dian's excellent post. That our gov't should be downsized....not the role of gov't to be in the RE business...the properties should be in the hands of the citizens who then would PAY taxes?? Excellent, grammatically correct post. Hope you'll read and comprehend.
Then Brett wrote about the streetcar, which many have, and told of the new businesses that spring up along the routes, and the cost of installing is a fraction of the price of the gondola. Sorry you missed that excellent post also.
Get your early AM ghostwriter and have a nap.
Other side said:
My aren't we testy. That road of civility goes two ways, sir. I believe amidst all the discussion you are not listening or reading what is being said. You ask for alternatives. The alternative to what? The gondola? It is an alternative, not a plan. Besides, that is what is being offered up to you, alternative "transportation" that benefits the entire community, not just one developer in his quest to rape and get rich off of Ogdens best assets. That is an alternative. Serving our existing businesses and attracting more. You want an answer to broaden the tax base and bring in jobs and income. Sometimes inaction is the best action when unreasonable plans that cost more and have high potential of failure are concerned as this crazy scheme. Peterson's pie in the sky is not the answer to all that ailed Ogden nor do we even know what it is about anyway. What we do know is that it only benefits him. The majority of this commuimnity does not want it. Were you not a part of the Mt. Ogden Community Plan meetings? He can build his resort but we do not need to sell off our prime open space, parks and public land to benefit his project... that only benefits himself. We are better off with the land for generations to come rather then an eyesore that we will have to contend with in a decade or two. There is no proof there is success in his plan, especially since there is not one other then he wants all the prime east bench land from the city and the university so he can make big bucks and hopefully build his resort. Its a land grab and nothing more. The alternative is to not do it. Let Ogden develop as it is already on it's real merits, not a fantasy. To think this is the answer to save ogden is ludicrous and insane. The answer to building Ogden into prosperity is to do just what is happening now. Get the downtown active and more businesses into Ogden to increase the sales tax base and the vitality of our blighted areas. Petersons plan only by-passes our areas in need. Downtown and central neighborhoods which will benefit from the steady growth coming that is real. Why does he not spend his time and energy in helping build our central core of town? Because he knows there is a prime opportunity to snag this land and make a killing but he did not expect that Ogden was awake. He thought he had a complacent city. How does that benefit this community as we watch gondolas ride right over the top of all the small and medium businesses invested in downtown Ogden as we spend all our energy and resources to draw them to Peterson. Why not entice them to stay in town? We have the Frontrunner coming, we have a new downtown coming and already many new businesses are setting up shop on Washington Blvd not to mention all the many who have hung in there in the worse of times waiting for downtown to revitalize. These are the heros, the pioneers.. the small business folks who are putting everything into revitalizing our community. To spend all our assets for one developer is not a means to broaden our tax base and put money in the city coffers. It will cost the city and has huge risk. You all keep on saying that the gondola will not be a burden on tax payers, well who is paying for it? By selling off our best asset and using that money for this risky project is plain old bad judgement and is taxpayers money. If he believes in it so much he should pay for the gondola, although I think it is a crazy idea but he could at least build his resort and prove it to be a success as the other resorts have done. We want people to stay downtown and shop and dine and spend their days in a central downtown for entertainment as well as necessities. We already have three fantastic resorts. We are already a ski town. World class. We are on our way. Articles are being writtin nationally, attention is focused on what we have, a best kept secret. It will take a few more years but is coming as we speak. What is the big rush. Remember, Peterson has given us NO proposal. This is all speculation. All or nothing. He does not live in Ogden, does not really care. He is looking to make himself and investors big money on a real estate scheme. Are you so blind you cannot see it. All these people that are lining up to move to Ogden because of Peterson's grand idea of a mini resort and a "wow" gondola should come and look at our community and see we have all of what it takes to make a wonderful place to live and invest and raise children. You want wow, look at that unaltered mountain and foothills. Tourists are already drawing here. You all really think that the gondola is what is going to bring them all here? Turn Ogden into Disneyland is the answser. It is not real. I say Snow Basin and Powder Mountain will bring the skiers. Our unaltered and wonderul foothills, paths, canyons, rivers will bring the rest for recreational needs. It is already happening without the crazy gondola idea. It is here now! Ogden will survive and prosper without the gondola and Peterson's resort. It is on it's way. You speak like nobody is listening to you. But are you listening? Everything you speak of is an alternative to the gondola. Nobody needs to give an alternative to an idea that has no merit or reality. Yet folks have talked about the street cars with some great support behind them that helps businesses and residents and you don't call that an alternative. You sir, are the insulting one. You sir are the closed minded one. Perhaps if you opened your mind rather then repeat what the LO mantra says over and over you too will see the light. Open your iii's and ears, sir!
~ogden iii's~
This "other sider" fellow is Rock Allen, I believe.
The same nincompoop who wrote form letters to the Standard under numerous aliases. The same writer who finlly got a firm editorial rebuke, when Don Porter said "Stop it!"
Same basic message, based on mainly ad hominem ("all opponents are naysayers")and false dillemma ("we have a great dumb idea nad you don't") fallacies.
These poor fellows are stuck in a rut, have fallen down, and can't get up.
Skip the alternative plans, except the one that calls for tar, feathers and a rail!
Othersider:
You wrote: Anyhow TT, let's try once again to... offer up an "ALTERNATIVE" to the gondola, or whatever you want to call it, that will assist Ogden in broadening it's tax base, putting more money in the city coffers, and giving the populace and tourist some kind of draw that will attract them and bank some money into the City's account.
Well the streetcar line will do the first two, as it has done in other midsized cities. Proven technolgy solving transit problems and drawing development money and increasing urban property values. As for the third element of your gondola-trifecta, act as a tourist draw, I'll note again,as many others have often, that what the Mayor has proposed is two gondolas, not one. And the city one [downtown to WSU] will transit only flat urban terrain. It cannot be considered a tourist draw by any reasonable definition of the term. The up-mountain gondola [from WSU to Malan's Basin] might be. Not the downtown gondola. So, the solution seems to be, once again [and it would serve all three of the needs you say the solution should serve] this: (a) build the streetcar line on the WFRC recommened route from downtown to WSU and McKay Dee (b)sell Mr. Peterson the land he needs, a smallish parcel of say five acres, to build his up-mt. gondola from WSU to Malan's Basin a base station, and (c) encourage Mr. Peterson develop Malan's basin with his own or other's venture capital as he wishes.
Doing a, b, and c will serve all the ends you want an alternative to serve, it will not involve the city selling off the public benchlands for a gated community real estate development, and it will permit the city to build the business-generating streetcar line [again, it is a proven technology for doing that] while permitting Mr. Peterson to build his up mountain gondola and develop Malan's Basin [provided he can find investors who agree with him that it is a good investment opportunity]. I repeat: what's not to like?
DIAN FOR MAYOR.
She said it in a nutshell. Is anybody listening?
Thanks for the refreshing words...
~ogden iii's~
CURMUDGEON FOR VICE MAYOR. AND TT AS CEO, SHARON FOR COO AND RUDI AS CFO!
Is ANYBODY LISTENING?
My... such words of reason and yet we have to hear such garbage over and over.
Othersider: open your mind, it will feel real good!
Lets vote on it. I guarantee this community does NOT want this gondola or to sell of our open space, prime lands!
~ogden iii's~
iii's...haven't you heard? We elected a 'Fearless Leader' for our 'republic'....therefore no voting by the masses....the Leader only, makes all the rules and decisions for the serfs. Those words from the Emporer his own self!
Other Sider,
So that's what you want, an alternative to the gondola should it fail? You have got to be kidding. You must be preparing for it's impending demise.
First of all get off the grammatical critique biz. I have made no claim to the King's English. In fact I take pride in embellishing it and shaping it for my own use, emphasis and humor. You obviously understand me and you obviously have little sense of humor.
But let's get back to the alternatives. You can't even give me points for supporting 50% of your plan. I support the SkiHub and Malan's Resort. I oppose selling the golf course and the town gondola. I back this up by offering the ALTERNATIVE of a transit corridor which is supported by the state and federal government and you have trouble seeing this logic. So be it. I know you were indoctrinated at those early LO meetings and I know you have your personal face to preserve now that you have commited to a project. That is the only support left. Those who fear losing face in Public. Let me help you overcome this debilitating tendency. I understand. Very powerful people are also emotionally invested in this Iraq war. Especially once the killing starts. Who takes responsibility for the last few guys getting killed once it is deemed a massive mistake???
It is sad when humans exhibit herd mentality over logic and self preservation. The LiftOgden campaign is much the same. Many were lured in early like myself by the promise of a connection to Snowbasin and no talk of selling a magnificent city park. I have no fear of losing face even to those I argued the point in favor of the town gondola. I have no fear of acquiring fresh and corroborating knowledge. Those emotionally invested in something that eventually fails the test of public acceptance and general utility are a sad but determined bunch with the vim and vigor of a Jerry Falwell.
The gondola along with the rest of the Peterson Alternative is just billed as a "500 million" investment. Big %&$#* deal. Try even calculating the investment impact of a 3 mile swath of fresh redevelopment investment and increased property value across the city and it's impact overall. You can't because it is so massive and so pervasive an impact on not just the bottom line but on quality of life for everyday people, and building a lively city. Instead of these stupidly simple pick and choose hastily brainstormed developments. A transit zone is an infrastructure, like a freeway or pipeline, except for people. A street life and transit in one bundle. Win-Win.
Well Sharon, just read your most recent posting to "Curm," where you tell him in your first sentence that he's not aware of all the schemes and scams that have been perpetrated on the people. That, Ms. B., should just about cover that.
You other people, wildly speculating about identities, etc., still, for some unknown reason, don't seem to be able to catch my drift, which is this:
Forget the gondola, and CP's plan, and the golf course and the open space, etc. Even though I feel like if that proposal were to de done and done RIGHT, CORRECTLY, whatever word you want, it has the potential to make Ogden a lot of money (emphsise on RIGHT, CORRECTLY). But there are those who are against it and there are those who are for it. Me, I'm just asking a question of you who are against it, "what is a money making alternative plan that would be good for Ogden as far as braodening our tax base, etc. I don't want to debate the issue of the gondola, I want to know what, since you are against it for whatever reason, you might have to offer to take this proposal's place that can impact our city in a positive way?
I'm not closed minded, I just would like to know if you people, especially individuals like TT, Sharon, Dian, all of those who are so absolutely negative about the gondola, what they might offer up in its place. Curmudgeon makes some sense here, and some others do too, but what, if the gondola goes down in defeat, do you propose to bring to the table that will have a positive, money making potential for our city?
Don't take this so damned personal; just throw out your ideas on how or what it will take to broaden our tax base and put more money in the City's bank account. This is NOT about the gondola....it's about an alternative that has potential.
These debates, like that which "anonymous" so eloquently presented, are not what I'm after. I've asked a question. I'm not espousing the gondola. I want to see what you "gentle readers" have for a solution or a different idea.
Now, try that on for size and let's hear something from you that might benefit the City. Over.
TT...you are so dang smart!!
Logic Police:
What's this about Don Porter's "firm editorial rebuke"? Was that already hashed out here at WCF? If it's true, what a great tale ... details, please! Details!
Other Sider,
Now you are seperating the golf course sale out of the whole thing as though it were being introduced by itself. In that very absurd case, no way. You are now asking us why we would be against selling the golf course to build homes and not even use the money for an urban gondola? You are reaching and crumbling under the weight of an unsustainable argument.
Cities do not exist to make money. Your insistence on some plan that will make the city some big bucks is off base and tangential. The city is recovering from the heavy fall it took after the loss of the railroad and the completion of I-15. The current resurgence is all a function of timing and everything is allright. Ogden's sheer natural beauty and affordable homes are what is fueling the current resurgence. Just ask the young couples who bought the homes across the street and next door to me. The homes were on the market for less than a week. Ask the many people who are renovating homes on almost any street in the city. None of the ones I have spoken with care one hoot about a gondola, ski resort or whatever. They were motivated primarily by the bottom line.
Again you missed the well reasoned points that the best alternative may be to do NOTHING. A very Zen thing. Of course you "bull by the horns types" have little knowledge of the principles of patience and allowing the natural forces a chance.
The other glaring and obvious alternative is the streetcar which has been shown and proven to be a huge redevelopment engine along their routes. What do you want. That I pull some other inane scheme out of my behind that rivals a gondola to a non-resort, from a non existent airport connection, that stops only twice in a city, carrying a few people that could be served by an existing busline. Sorry, I am at a loss to dream up anything so utterly without merit.
Schnozzboy,
You asked about the "firm rebuke" that Don Porter gave to the guy who was writing pro gondola letters to the editor under assumed names. What happened was Don Porter found out about it and called a stop to it. (That's why there haven't been many pro-Peterson letters to the editor lately - because there are so few who actually support it.)
You'll also notice that whenever somebody posts here on the WCF in support of Peterson, it's 90% certain it's a Geiger doing the writing, and we get used to their writing style - if not their superficiality and vapidity. They are always trying to BS people into thinking there is more support for it than there actually is. Anyway, here's the editorial.
~~~
In your own words, please
Friday, June 23, 2006
By Don Porter
Editorial Page Editor
"If we could live without passion, maybe we could know some kind of peace. But we would be hollow. Empty rooms, shuttered and dank ... without passion, we'd be truly dead."
-- "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"
Although I am probably not best-known for giving others the benefit of the doubt, I plan to do so in this column. It's about Ogden's gondola proposal, and the passion of those people who are arguing both for and against it.
I like it when people are fired up about an issue. My guess is that most everyone shares that feeling. Heaven knows, Americans -- Utahns -- aren't as engaged as we ought to be in the issues that affect our lives. When most of us hear the words "tax policy," our eyes glaze over and we wonder: "Is it time for 'Seinfeld' yet?"
But passion sometimes clouds a person's judgment, and I fear that's happening with the gondola issue. I don't think the evidence for this conclusion is difficult to find -- just read the letters to the editor and the things people say to our news reporters on the topic.
Somehow, though, I find it fairly easy to forgive people who are amped-up on adrenaline when arguing their case and say something they later regret. We all do that, don't we?
More troubling is the new wrinkle in the gondola debate: Someone is writing lots of letters advocating a particular position on the gondola issue, then urging others to pretend they wrote the letters and submit them as letters to the editor.
In school, teachers call that "plagiarism," "cheating," whatever. The upshot: They give you an F because it is dishonest. Tragically, we see a lot of that on the opinion pages, as do our colleagues around the country. As I've noted a few times before in this space, we even have a name for it: "Astroturf," to describe fake grass-roots support or criticism of an issue.
Now it's happening in the gondola debate, and that's a shame. This argument should be conducted in an honest and above-board manner. So I'm writing this in an effort to be generous. I'm giving those passionate people out there the benefit of the doubt. Letting someone else write that letter for you may be easier, but it isn't honest. You should write your own letters, in your own words.
Publisher Lee Carter and I have discussed this issue and agree: After the publication of this column, the grace period is over. If we get any more of these manufactured letters regarding the gondola issue, we'll start naming names. My guess is that it will damage whichever cause is Astroturfing. We think that's fair, don't you? Now that we've reminded everyone of the rules, those who break them should be exposed.
When you read the letters to the editor, your expectation is that they are written by the person who signs his/her name. We want our readers to have confidence in the integrity of every letter's authorship, whether or not they agree with the opinions being expressed. Our hope is that you appreciate those efforts on your behalf.
"Well, Ms B, that should just about cover that"....
I don't even understand that...and, you said I think I'm pretty smart...but, you got me!
I'm bored with all this back and forth stuff with the 'other sider'...either he doesn't have an interesting life, or he's really really obtuse, or he just needs to see his nom de plume in print? Is that a validation of your 'sense of self'?
So many interesting posts to read ....and Dian hit the nail on the head when she called for gov't to get out of the money MAKING arena, downsize, and may I add, get rid of the deadwood on the payroll?
TT has told 'othersider' what's up so many times that OS is either really dumb or this is his pitiful attempt to mingle with the smart people for a change.
So, let's call a moratorium....tomorrow is Thanksgiving. Surely, we have blessings to count and be grateful for??
We could start with being grateful for the right to express our opinions without fear of anything worse than being insulted on this blog! But, seriously folks, Thanksgiving is an American holiday...a day to express thanks and reflect.
Let's be grateful for our VOLUNTEER Armed Forces who are in harm's way and wishing they could be home griping and debating over a silly gondola.
So, Happy Thanksgiving.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4777263.stm
cut and paste and check this out everyone
Mercy:
Yes, I think you're right. This vein has about played out for a while. Time to raise another topic or two I think.
As for thanksgiving, I hope all who read or post on WC Forum [on all sides of all issues] will tomorrow sit down with friends or loved ones or both and enjoy a traditional baked eel thanksgiving dinner just like the original Puritans. [There are some souces extant from people who were at the first thanksgiving in Plymouth, and they report eating ducks, geese, venison, ell, clams and oysters, and fish. The Pilgrims lived in an area in which it was hard to walk fifty yards in any direction without triping over a wild turkey, however no one mentioned their eating turkey.] So, bake up some nice eel and have a wonderful traditional meal, everyone.
A few interesting tidbits about the Riverfront Project:
This, from the current Ogden City Web Page: Riverfront Project
On January 13, 2004 the Ogden City Redevelopment Agency approved a "Development Agreement" with Cottonwood Partners Ogden River LLC to begin the development process for creating a new mixed-use neighborhood focused along the Ogden River between Washington Boulevard and Lincoln Avenue...
...The Development Agreement establishes Cottonwood's exclusive right to develop the property, commences a 120-day due diligence period to finalize feasibility studies and market analyses, begin tenant recruitment and to determine the first area for new development...
Is this development agreement still on?
Fast forward to April, 2006, when howls of outrage emanate from WCF:
The RDA will borrow the $2.5 million windfall from Ogden city, and apply it to the ridiculous Godfrey "River Project" without even batting a blurry eye.
Then Godfrey will re-sell it to a developer croney at a loss; and claim he's a friggin' real estate genius. That is Godfrey's proven MO: "Giveaway Godfrey," they'll call him in the history books!
The Standard Examiner Article regarding this states that the land acquisition for Phase 1 alone will cost $4.6 million. A bit more than $2.5, one agrees. Also, as I recall this discussion and as is mentioned in the article, the options to buy these properties would expire on May 3rd. This was one of the reasons the city had to hurry up and allocate this $2.5 million for these purchases.
Fast forward again to November, 2006, when it becomes widely known that some properties in the project area have been purchased by Mr. Leshem. Nothing wrong with this, except that the city had at least three years to purchase them itself and didn't do it.
Wonder if this was because available funds were going into the rec center.
Did the city do any buying between April and now, one wonders also.
One sees from the Weber County website that most of Mr. Leshem's properties appear to be in Phase 2. Will Ogden City purchase them from him when Phase 2 is reached? Or is Mr. Leshem himself Phase 2?
As Curmudgeon would say, curiouser and curiouser.
Questions, questions, questions.
TO OTHER SIDER! "If I'm going to fast for you...." I wish YOU WOULD GET UP TO SPEED! Then we wouldn't have to REPEAT AND REPEAT AND EXPLAIN every little point that you don't seem to comprehend. Or maybe you don't have the same definition of "alternative" that every one else has Let me give you the official definition from Webster, "Alternative, adj. 1. Providing a choice between things, 2. Of an institution, etc., appealing to unconventional interests/an alternative school. noun, 1. a choice between things, 2. one of the things to be chosen, 3. something left to choose."
"Curmudgeon said...
Othersider:
"You wrote: Anyhow TT, let's try once again to... offer up an "ALTERNATIVE" to the gondola, or whatever you want to call it, that will assist Ogden in broadening it's tax base, putting more money in the city coffers, and giving the populace and tourist some kind of draw that will attract them and bank some money into the City's account.
Well the streetcar line will do the first two, as it has done in other midsized cities. Proven technolgy solving transit problems and drawing development money and increasing urban property values. As for the third element of your gondola-trifecta, act as a tourist draw, I'll note again,as many others have often, that what the Mayor has proposed is two gondolas, not one. And the city one [downtown to WSU] will transit only flat urban terrain. It cannot be considered a tourist draw by any reasonable definition of the term. The up-mountain gondola [from WSU to Malan's Basin] might be. Not the downtown gondola. So, the solution seems to be, once again [and it would serve all three of the needs you say the solution should serve] this: (a) build the streetcar line on the WFRC recommened route from downtown to WSU and McKay Dee (b)sell Mr. Peterson the land he needs, a smallish parcel of say five acres, to build his up-mt. gondola from WSU to Malan's Basin a base station, and (c) encourage Mr. Peterson develop Malan's basin with his own or other's venture capital as he wishes.
"Doing a, b, and c will serve all the ends you want an alternative to serve, it will not involve the city selling off the public benchlands for a gated community real estate development, and it will permit the city to build the business-generating streetcar line [again, it is a proven technology for doing that] while permitting Mr. Peterson to build his up mountain gondola and develop Malan's Basin [provided he can find investors who agree with him that it is a good investment opportunity]. I repeat: what's not to like?"
Other Sider, am I missing something here? Isn't the street car an alternative? and I (Brett) wrote:
"An alternative is a trolley or street car as Curmudgeon suggests. 1. A street car system BRINGS NEW BUSINESSES at each of the stops along its route, and the new businesses CREATE SALES making money to which SALES TAX IS ASSESSED; millions of dollars in TAX REVENUE flow into that city. THIS IS A FACT! THERE IS PROOF! The gondola will not bring millions of dollars the way the Mayor and Peterson have it planned. Maybe the street car isn't as unique as a gondola, but the MAYOR PROMISED us that the REC CENTER and LARRY MILLER'S CINEMAPLEX will draw visitors to Ogden, and hopefully Boyer will include some retail stores in The Junction so that they generate SALES TAX.
2. Ogden will RECEIVE State and Federal funds to help with the street car -- the gondola will not generate either State nor Federal funding. As Ben Franklin said, "A penny saved is a penny earned." which translates to saving money is as good as earning it!
3. It will cost much more for the gondola to be installed than the street car. Just recently a street car system was built for a total cost of $17 Million while Portland has paid $57 million for less than a mile-long gondola. Maintenance costs would be much less with the street car than the gondola and the street car is more dependable than a gondola that can't be ridden in a high wind storm, which we have more than our share. Millions of dollars SAVED/EARNED here.
Let's talk reality, "Other Sider." We've heard nothing but bloated and inflated figures for everything connected with Peterson's project. The street car saves the taxpayers of Ogden money in initial installation costs, in maintenance costs, in actual "up" or running time besides bringing in new businesses along its route. I would say that the street car is far superior in being the best economical bet for Ogden compared to the gondola, that will do nothing but cost the city money!
Other Sider, SHOW US PROOF that the Chris Peterson's concept will bring more money than it costs. Kind of hard to do since there is no plan. Mr. Peterson needs to give us a plan before he starts telling us what to do and asking us to change the sensitivity of the open space land. Sorry, got sidetracked. Do you understand if you save, it's the same as earning money, because if you don't spend it, you don't have to tax the poor people!
SO HERE IS AN ALTERNATIVE -- AND A GOOD ALTERNATIVE!! Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it isn't a viable, if not a better, alternative
Well said, Brett, Let's hope Other Sider and the rest of the LO Plagiarism Society gets his fill of Turkey and swill today and settles down for some introspection. Someone mentioned Rock Allen earlier. I remember he was the one assigned to craft the various form letters for LO since they felt individuals could not craft their own words effectively. No wonder. Crafting a letter of support for an empty proposal could be challenging for even the most literate.
Happy Thanksgiving, Everyone, including the LO Chorus and Mayoral Backup Singers...all 7 of you.
Dian:
Nice digging. Would be nice if someone could answer, directly, the questions you raised. Someone in authority, that is, who could back their answer with evidence on the record.
Failing that, it would be nice if a newspaper... maybe even a local one... could set loose an tenacious reporter who has at all timea a healthy dose of curiosity mixed with cautions skepticism about self-serving statements by public officials to dig around some, looking for the answers.
Wouldn't it? Who knows, perhaps there are sound and reasonable answers to the questions you raise, and it has all been handled as it should have been. That would be good to know to. It would be good to have the questions resolved, either way, que no?
Very nice work Dian. Good arguments, Brett and TT.
Yes, Curm...a good investigative reporter is sorely needed here. I'm thinking that even John Wright would be ham-strung from real digging and reporting. I think that perhaps a good 'investigative' team from one of the TV stations is what this dark city administration requires. (Dorrene's flashlites haven't had enuf battery power it seems). A TV team could come in with floodlites to 'shine a little lite on, shine a little lite on, shine a little lite on THEE'. Some of the stations have spent weeks and months digging deep on a story and then breaking it.
What say y'all?
In Ogden
There's a bunch of elitists who live neath the hills,
They don't look toward town; they see none of it's ills,
They've not a plan among them, for improving the town
but propose one and you'll meet with more than a frown
'The whole town must heed our utopian ideals!'
'Nevermind they aren't workable, we like how they 'feel'
They've got some town council in the palms of their hands
Who care not for the town, but their reelection plans
The town needs prosperity; they shout 'it does not!'
All things are fixed by streetcars; bla bla, bla bla
'Dare not do a thing in this backyard of mine',
'don't do a thing, and don't you dare spend a dime'
'No good comes from money; the wealthy?- mistrust!'
'We don't need their taxes, no no- not us!'
But they've a list of improvements; they want 'all' to pay,
The town has no money; 'really?' they say
'Don't raise my taxes, make new residents pay more'
'cause we have people flocking in- residents galore!'
Better busstops they propose for the poor of this town
but to jobs, or to money, or prosperity- they frown
'Sell some land off for the good of the town? No no, not us!'
'We don't care about the town, just our neighborhood- that's us'
'The Mayor's no good; forget all he's done'
'Pick on him anyway! Isn't it fun?'
'Ogden will turn around- do nothing, you'll see'
Just like the last decades, let's see- there were three
'The town is just fine, don't look toward the west'
'We like the view eastward, it suits us as best'
'Dare not do a thing in this backyard of mine',
'don't do a thing, and don't you dare spend a dime'
TT, you win. You insist on arguing the merits and non-merits of the gondola instead of just tossing out an idea that might help our City "turn around." One only has to look at those cities that were once urban blighted, like Charlotte, San Antonio, etc, see things like Charlotte's Panthers Stadium and its new Concention Center (with light rail) or San Antonio's River Walk, San Francisco's Cannery and Ghiardeli Square, the list goes on, to understand what I mean. This is not a debate about the virtues of the gondola; this was a simple question of: do you have something that might aid our City turn around financially? I suppose TT still needs some time to figure this one out.
Brett, you did a rather fine job in answering my question. I do find it interesting that most any posting that does get into the question and answer area, turns to transportation within the City. I'm wondering if there's a "Silicon Valley" type implant out there somewhere, or something to do with the Airport, that could fill the bill.
I agree, a City's first responsibility is to take care of its citizens, but it needs money to do so. Ever since the RR went away and the old mall closed down, Ogden has been hit hard in the pocketbook and it has not, as some suggest, been bailed out by private investors buying a few houses and fixing them up. It has been kick-started by the Administration with projects like the Junction, the American Can, and the River Project. Now, with those under way, Ogden just might attract some private investors and continue this growth. Will it be the gondola or something else? I don't know, but hopefully we keep the momentum going and stop the erroneous labeling of those who dare to dream as being nothing more than LO radicals who keep trumpeting the same old song. I'm neutral here, but it seems like it's TT and that bunch who keep this flame burning and I'll bet it's a cold day in hell before they understand and practice a little compromise.
Enjoy Thanksgiving....my thoughts and prayers go out to our troops in harm's way and to their families here at home.
Nogrowth:
Clever and fun, but once I got to this line... They've not a plan among them, for improving the town I pretty much gave up thinking the poem, though clever, would have anything much of intererst to say.
Just more of the Lift Ogden Koolade they want us all to drink: that anyone who does not accept the Godfrey/Peterson real estate speculation gondola/gondola scheme has no ideas, favors no plan to encourage Ogden's development and improve life for its citizens, and is opposed to everything. [Don't you folks ever tire of calling anyone who sees things differently than you a "naysayer"? Even the loveliest of songs gets old eventually if you sing nothing else.]
If you ever get tired of your cozy caccoon of comforting myths about anyone who disagrees with you, wander over to www.smartgrowthogden.org Who knows? You might learn something. Stranger things have happened.
Other Sider,
I am so glad you mentioned San Antonio and San Francisco. Yes I have been there and it is magnificent the economic engine that has been created from the installation of ...guess what...a streetcar...that service the River Walk and the Cannery linking them to regional transit and to other points of interest. I think back there in numerous posts I may have made some mention of a streetcar.
Have a great Thankgiving and may we bring our troops home ASAP.
Charlotte Light Rail
San Antonio Streetcar Map
San Francisco's new streetcar line
Seems San Francisco can't get enough of streetcars nor can Charlotte and San Antonio. Crazy fools must never have met a good gondola salesman.
Other Sider is now doing my research. Thanks for the tips , bro
TT:
The San Antonio "Streetcar" line is not a rail system. It's several bus routes, with the busses done up to look like old timey streetcars. Click on the link you provided and you'll see pix of them. They do share, however, one key common feature with rail streetcar lines such as those in SF and Portland: frequent stops along the route, which of course, vastly increases their value as both public tranist systems and tourist delivery systems. The proposed downtown gondola, of course, as presently planned [in so far as we know, no plan having yet been presented formally], will have only one stop between downtown and WSU. One. Making it nearly valueless as a business generator and investment attractor along most of its route.
Thanks for the clarification, Curm,
Here's another great quote. 400 million dollars invested along the corridor. Are you listening Other Sider.
"This is a momentous occasion for the City of Charlotte" proclaimed Mayor Patrick McCrory, adding that "The investment value along this corridor is now at $400 million, and we expect it to increase even more because of the thriving offices, housing, and entertainment businesses. The opening of the trolley line will spur further development, but it also provides the city with a new historic cultural amenity, as well as a transportation choice, all rolled into one."
[CATS News Release, 23 June 2004]
That was I
Portland Streetcar Development Impact
Again, "STREETCAR SYSTEMS." There's gotta be something other than that, doesn't there? Most likely some of us are, at times, on the same page. I'm just wondering what other device somebody could bring to the table that would aid in Ogden's reconstruction.
We could debate the virtues of the gondola, a streetcar systeme, a TRAX, etc. until we were blue in the face. But what, pray tell, is out there that could prove to be another, or different, economic engine that will give our good old city an economic boost?
Is there something in the computer (my "Silicone Valley" analogy) industry? Or something related to flight and the airport? Commercial? Retail?
What do you think? Is there that Geenie in the bottle, that we used to call the railroad, still lying in wait, undiscovered, one of the final nails in our salvation coffin? Something that none of us has thought of?
THAT is where I'm coming from, or going to. I'm not pro this or con that. I'm just a concerned person who wants the best for the town we live in, and THAT'S why I called for an "ALTERNATIVE" a few days ago.
Hope that clears the air and gets the creative juices flowing. This thing will work, but it's gl;ing to take all of us, some healing, and some cooperation.
Again, enjoy your day and let's send our thoughts to those overseas.
OtherSide:
Seems like what you are asking for, or looking for, is a magic bullet. I doubt there is one. Ogden is, I think, much more likely to prosper on all fronts by the synergistic effects of several smaller developments that, collectively, multipy their individual impacts. Such as [probably more important than any other single element] the arrival of Frontrunner, the promotion of Ogden as an outdoors-related "hub" [kudoes to the Mayor on that one], the instalation of the street car line as both a transit solution and busines generator, the completion and success [please god] of the River Project and of the Mall re-development. When you add all that up, the impact over time may be dramatic. The search for a silver bullet "cure" for Ogden seems to me unrealistic and unlikely to achieve the results, over time, that several more limited projects working collectively will.
What we need to be careful not to do, I think, is to make Ogden less attractive as a place to live and as an outdoors-oriented destination. Which, I think, selling off the public parklands for development as a gated community of vacation villas will do. Giving up what we already have for the hoped-for beneifts of a highly speculative and costly gamble seems to me not wise public policy for Ogden.
I'm with other sider. We need to roll the dice; or play double aught and spin the wheel. Better yet play a little russian roulette.
Prudence is for pussies. No thrill in that, especially when we're playing with the public's money.
"salvation coffin"?
Great gondola metaphor!
**** (Four stars.)
I am sure I speak for Gadi, but he is with his family,when I say to all of you HAPPY THANKSGIVING ... for all you have, for all we share, and please, if you ever come to LA, like, you know, to go visit Universal's City Walk or something fun, let us know and we can all celebrate open discourse, open spaces, and open minds. This has been fun, and I do believe I have the next PEYTON PLACE, for my next tv project.
Ya know, Curmudgeon, maybe you hit the nail on the head when you used the word "collectively." The magic bullet, for some that seems to be the gondola and for others who are against the gondola there has been no presentation of a singular, magic bullet, simply a "stop the gondola" attitude, is already in the air heading toward its target. The Junction, the River Project, the Light Rail coming to town, et al, just might be the answer I was hoping to get whe I asked for an "alternative plan" to the gondola.
Like I stated, if we come together, pool our resources and wisdom, and move toward a common, well thought out and structured goal, we may already be well upon our way.
This discourse, these last couple of days that nearly got away because of assumptions, accusations and inuendo in our collective dialogue, has shown me that quite a sensible outcome is possible if we can ALL cut through the crap while working and thinking together.
What we've accomplished here is probably not much, other than the fact that we've maybe shown each other that once we do away with the BS, something positive can come out of discussion.
I guess we all should get an "atta boy."
Sure glad that you don't have access to any of our public funds and tax monies, Penny Stock Trader! Do us all a favor and don't run for public office. You can gamble with your OWN money, but people take a dim look at their elected officials doing that with their tax money.
Other...
Please turn off your computer and go to bed. Enough already.
O-Sider,
You seemed to have tempered. That's a good thing. No one here has been on a mindless "Stop the Gondola" theme. It has always been in the context of the WFRC and UTA recommendations. There need not be any "magic bullet". To be pushing for something in that vein just as the Junction is coming together and other projects around town along with the natural recent "discovery" of Ogden by the recreational journals would be getting a little antsy. Allowing these recent upgrades to Ogden to have some affect would be smart. Let's also give time for the Amer employees to arrive and become a part of the community. I am sure they will also bring with them some creative energy.
I am always amazed how cities seem to have difficulty surviving as a place where people just live. Why does there always need to be some tourist attraction or incessant growth. If our communities are so unable to sustain themselves without outside money there could be something wrong with the business model. Granted, our modern lives, career specialization, and high mobility has homogenized communities and led to a reduction of diversified skills and services. Still most communities have the necessary essential services and resources to be self sustaining. To always be looking for that big outside investment and the growth that comes with it cannot be reconciled on paper.
Here is a link I sent to Chris Peterson. It's a little far-fetched but in reality should we not be looking to create something that will be a model for communities of the future. A self-sustaining state-of-the-art high-tech eco-village/ski and snowboard park/outdoor recreation and education center. The post-automobile, post surburbian community model will require a complete rethinking of design and lifestyle.
Califia Eco Village
I have always supported Chris Peterson building something of beauty and quality on his land in Malan's Basin. I think it is a tremendous opportunity to have something unique that reflects our values and is integrated into our community. The conversation has been muddied by the insistence by Godfrey and Peterson on the town gondola and selling the golf course. I complete rethinking is needed right now. It will be to Ogden's loss if we cannot help Peterson build something we can be proud of.
Dan S. is exactly right. The sad truth for Chris Peterson is that the Foothill base for his Malan's Resort is actually less convenient to the tourist than Snowbasin or any other Northern Utah resort with or without the town gondola. The only people that will benefit from it's location are those in within a mile.
That fact is why this project needs to be viewed in the fresh light of serving as a municipal ski area. To those who do not ski or snowboard you may not get the impact. Park City is now a breeding ground for champion skiers, snowboarders, skateboarders etc. Even their high school football team kicks ass. Why? because the community is solidly behind their kids and having them involved in sports. In Park City, even rebel kids who want nothing to do with team sports have the opportunity to be a town hero at the skate park. They just upgraded their already world class skatepark.
Ogden has a pitifully small percentage of snow enthusiasts for the incredible ski areas we have at our disposal. Many who do not participate see the equipment as expensive and the ticket cost as prohibitive. Snowboard equipment can be gotten online and at swaps for a fraction of retail and student passes at the local resorts are quite reasonable. Chris Peterson's resort can fill it's destiny as a breeding ground for our local talent. The west facing exposure is actually an asset to a snowboard park that wants to keep the snow pliable in the afternoon.
The only edge Chris Peterson has on Snowbasin and Powder is that the urban location would appeal to the youth and that goes right along with a snowboard park theme. Southern California resorts have notoriously poor snow conditions yet have become wildly successful since the introduction of terrain parks. Most of them have little free skiing acreage anymore. They have converted nearly the whole mountains to terrain features. Snowboard parks have a much greater user capacity per acre than a free skiing area. Kids line up for the hits and the controlled approach and landing zones make for efficient use of the available acreage. This is really Chris Peterson's only successful model and maybe he is getting it with his recent references to Mt. High in California as evidence of a small ski area with big numbers.
Mammoth Terrain Park
BigBearTerrainPark
Actually, Ogden needs a "magic bullet," or something that will put some dollars in the Kitty. The Fire & Police wage fiasco showed us that. Combine the $148 million infrastructure re-do tab, the various CIP projects that need funding, and all the rest who have their hands out (in a needy and worthy way, I might add), and one can see why a city must have some money to sustain itself....even in times of little or no growth. No rocket science here, just the reality that Ogden needs something that will generate income, and lots of it. As I've said, and I realized this from our buddy, Curmudgeon, maybe this is already happening in a collective sense with the Junction, River Project, et al.
As for "had enough," when you're as obviously out of your element as you are, and the subject matter is beyond the scope of your reasoning, I think it's you who should turn off your computer, read up on some things, and pray you'll catch up. Then, you too can play with the big boys and girls.
OS
Is there a reason to be insulting just because some of us are weary of your same old gripes?
I see you've given Curm a nod of approval of sorts...does that mean you're seeing the light?
If you had a mayor and playpals who didn't spend this city into bankruptcy...there'd be some money in the coffers. Dian made a well reasoned argument several posts above on that very subject.
NOT spending money is KEEPING or SAVING money. Double DUH.
A lot of money and time has been expended pushing Peterson's non plan...just a vision. The mayor could have been using that same amount of time and 'kissing up'.... with legit businesses who have approached the admin about coming here. He and (Reid, while in that office), gave some such a rude, unwelcoming 'attitude', that after a very short time with these titans of business, they said 'adios'...and took their business proposals and resultant tax revenues to another lucky city.
But, you can keep harping on the efficacy of a gondola and resort..that Ellison even admitted would take about 10 to 20 years to complete! So, do YOU have a big idea to help our city? Or, do just want TT and others to think up the solutions to what you perceive as a big problem?
Once Godfrey is out of office and Ogden is graced with a truly savvy business leader...sans massive ego...Ogden will attract more businesses to serve the people.
BTW...have you heard which businesses are coming into the Junction? Ogden would have money to pay police and firefighters a competitive wage AND not raid the snow removal funds IF Godfrey wasn't subsidizing Neilson and Fat Cats! Maybe you think it's okay to be bonded for over 20 years for that caper? Get off the ski slopes and come back down here where MOST of the folks live their lives.
I'd like to point out a front-page article in today's SL Trib, Falling walls wreak havoc in St. George.
Apparantly, stone walls started crumbling due to heavy rains, overwatering, or bad design, and continue to crumble. Homeowners had assumed that the city had specfic standards and that developers had followed them.
"Recognizing a growing problem, city leaders in July 2005 adopted an ordinance outlining design and structural guidelines for developers. But the law was not formally placed into city codes until this September, around the time city leaders were notified two residents planned to sue. Meantime, more walls crumbled."....[That] "lawsuit raises questions about St. George's willy-nilly growth, the influence of developers in City Hall and the role of government in protecting the public.
"Sandberg [a City Engineer] figured at least 10 walls had failed in the year prior. 'The first thing people inquire is: 'How did the city allow this to happen?'.... Developers at the same meeting argued the rules were unfair.....
"It's not the job of the city to try to develop an ordinance to help a developer develop a piece of land," Tom Henry said. Henry bought a lot in the Castle Rock subdivision and then was surprised by a series of wall collapses. "I bought believing everything had been done properly," Henry said. The homeowners eventually reached a settlement with the developer.....
Whether deliberate or a mistake, Nolin believes the one-year delay in implementing the ordinance has the effect of grandfathering every wall built between July 2005 and September of this year. 'You wonder about the democratic process when government pretends to pass legislation and refuses to implement it when it involves the safety of their own residents," he added. "They've decided the role of government is to provide silence and secrecy.'"
Of course, no one would be silly enough to substitute the word "landslide" for "wall collapse" and any similarity between this situation and what might happen in Ogden if Peterson's luxury townhome project were to become an actuality is purely coincidental.
Wow!....Oh, Henry...would you be our mayor? Or Nolin? 'silence and secrecy'?
Where have we seen these behaviors before?? hmmmm?
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