By Curmudgeon
Interesting pro-gondola letter in the Standard-Examiner this morning by one Milt Neely of Clinton.
What makes it interesting? Well, first, here's how the Std-Ex headlined the letter: "Ogden business owner happy with progress." Why is that interesting? Because nowhere in the letter does Mr. Neely indicate he is a businessman of any kind, in Ogden or in Clinton or anyplace else. Creative writing kudos to the headline writer on that one.
Mr. Neely is happy about "about all the positive changes going on in Ogden," and particularly about the River Parkway, which he enjoys a great deal. No problem there. Good things, and the River Parkway is one of them, please me too.
But then he goes on to say that "the gondola needs to be installed" because "it is a good risk to take." Does he offer any reason for thinking it's a good risk? Any evidence in support of his claim? Of course not. But it gets better. He then says: "I have seen this in another city, and it appears to be a major asset." Does he tell us what other city he has seen a gondola being a major asset? No, he does not.
Mr. Neely concludes his letter this way: "At this time, I would like to raise a middle-finger salute to all the critics who have stood in the way of Ogden's progress. There are those who get things done, and there are those who complain about what is being done."Of course, it did not occur to Mr. Neely that many of those enemies of progress to whom he so happily gives the finger in this morning's paper [presumably for opposing the Peterson/Godfrey gondola/gondola/real estate speculation scheme] were major supports of and movers behind the various River Parkway projects... the only specific element of progress in Ogden that his letter mentions.
So, he likes the gondola, but he can't explain why; he's seen it work as a major asset in another city, but he won't say which one; and anyone who thinks differently than he does is an enemy to progress to be flipped off at will.
Gotta love those gondolistas. Class acts all the way.
69 comments:
Curm:
Yeah, that one was a peach of a letter. I sure could see how his "positive" approach and life philosophy beats out my "negative" attitudes.
I would imagine that the letter was trimmed down from a much longer one. I know my own letters to the S-E have been heavily trimmed and edited, not always in ways I appreciated.
Mono:
If that's so, if they edited his letter without his knowledge or permission, then I owe an apology to Mr. Neely and will gladly make it.
But does the SE trim letters without getting the writer to OK the edited text first? That would surprise me. I've had letters trimmed by other papers, but usually they did it by asking me to cut X number of words out myself, or by editing the letter down, then sending it to me for my OK. Which sometimes I gave, or I suggested another revision because theirs had changed my meaning in some important way. I've never had a paper alter a letter and then print it under my name without giving me a chance to OK the edits or to pull the letter. [And I've done that once too when the editor and I could not agree on acceptable changes.]
But if the SE altered Mr. Neely's text to eliminate content I criticized him for not including, then Mr. Neely has my apologies for those criticisms.
Mr. Neeley owns a metal fabrication company located in Ogden that deals in window well grates and things of that nature.
"But does the SE trim letters without getting the writer to OK the edited text first? That would surprise me."
YES
They try to keep the content, I too have been edited in a manner that was a bit sharper than I had intended.
Hey Rudi,
You wrote my post this morning!
I reread Neeley's little letter a couple more times attempting to divine where he identifies himself as a 'businessman'. Hmmmm.
Then I thought to myself, "Self, did this little gondola cheer emanate from the 9th floor?"...or "Does someone at the SE keep these cute letters for LO FOM's?"
Either way, the silly thing was most disingenuous. You are right. Neeley didn't mention the city with the gondola. He didn't EXCLUDE Moyal. Moyal is bringing vitality (and tax revenue) to the River Project...but, then, Moyal probably doesn't invite the mayor to Sunday dinner either, thus making Moyal one of the crowd who gets the finger!
Just when we were giving credit to the SE for some enlightening articles, they put a self-incriminating headline on their fellow LO buddy's letter!
How much of his own money will Neeley RISK for the gondola?
I knew Mr. Neeley years ago, but have no idea what prompted this letter out of left field. It was feeble-minded of the S-E to call Neeley a business owner while deleting the specifics. All I can infer from Mr. Neeley's mucilaginous missive is that he cares so deeply about Ogden's future that he pays property taxes not just in another town but in another county!
Auslander:
Thanks for the info. The SE should have included it somehow if it was going to use that headline. Clearly someone at the SE knew about Mr. Neely's business. The problem was, the SE didn't manage to let its readers know.
Not a major gaffe, but still, it's nice as a rule to have headlines match the items they introduce.
Umhm:
Thank you. I didn't know that, or if I once did, I'd forgotten it.
The SE should stop doing that. If something appears over your name in the paper, it should be your writing, or if they edit it, you should have the courtesy of concurring in the edits [which again makes the letter's content entirely yours] or of pulling the letter. It doesn't take much time and it's important. Un-approved edits of letters [beyond correcting grammar and punctuation] is a bad idea. The SE ought to stop it.
Wonder why this idiot doesn't get in there and pony up a big investment for the gondola if he thinks it's such a great idea.
As Maroni points out, its not his tax money or city park land that he is so free to throw on the line for such a large crap shoot.
It will be interesting to see if the gondolista crowd discounts this moronic letter as one coming from an "outsider".
But one thing in favor of his rationalization for the gondola, it is every bit as intelligent and complete as the mighty midget's!
Ya just gotta love these deep thinkers that make up the Godfreyite movement.
Curm:
I can confirm that the Standard-Examiner edits letters (and commentaries) without getting approval from the authors. I've had some unpleasant experiences with this.
Long ago I wrote a LTE accusing Congressman Jim Hansen of being a liar, with full documentation. The S-E took out the word "lie" and substituted some mush that I forget. It seems they have a policy against calling certain people liars--although they've published dozens of pieces calling Bill Clinton a liar.
A few years later, when Hansen retired, I sent another LTE commenting on some of his good and bad qualities. This time I avoided the word "lie" but again pointed out that he often made up his own "facts" that were actually fabrications. At that time Pat Bean, an experienced reporter whom I knew, was working at the editorial desk and she had the courtesy to call me about the claims in my letter. But she wouldn't quite let me assert that Hansen had uttered falsehoods; we finally agreed that the letter would say that "I can show" that his statements are false.
In another instance, they shortened a guest commentary that I wrote (screwing up some of the logic) and also changed "toe the line" to "tow the line". Don Porter privately apologized for that particular bit of illiteracy on their part, but the fact remains that they made me look stupid and I had no say in the edits.
On several other occasions they've published my letters and commentaries essentially verbatim.
Perhaps most importantly, everything I've ever sent them for publication has been published (in some form). I know they haven't treated everyone so well, but I do appreciate their efforts to publish most of what they receive.
I also appreciate their printing letters such as the one being discussed here, which beautifully illustrates the level of respect and civility that we've see from gondola proponents over the last two years.
With such worldly and intelligent supporters like this apparently willing to give us the benefit of their expertise, why is the Mayor paying such big bucks to Harmer?
Dan:
Thanks for the detail.
As noted before, the SE should stop its practice of editing letters and op eds without offering the original writer the option of concurring in the changes or withdrawing the piece, at least.
Their policy at the moment on this is a bad one. And there is no reason I can see for it other than their wanting to save themselves a little work. The standard for LTE's should be [with the possible exception of errors in grammar and punctuation], verbatim or edited with author's OK of final text. Without exception.
Curm:
I doubt whether they changed the content or tone of the letter.
In my particular case, it was apparently a policy issue, like Dan S.' experience with calling someone a "liar". The S-E apparently has a policy which prohibits naming another author of a letter to the editor. So, they changed my:
In a letter to the editor, Smith wrote:
To something like:
In a letter to the editor, a letter writer wrote:
Something silly like that. It didn't change what I meant, but it made me look slightly illiterate. I'm not surprised that Dan S. has had similar experiences.
If they had asked me, I would have followed the policy, but my letter would have been in Standard English.
What I meant to say in the blog is that in this case, perhaps they edited out the fact that he was a business owner but it was retained in the headline.
Curm:
Actually, I'm not sure I agree that they should always get approval from authors for their edits. I can imagine that this would lead to lengthy arguments in many cases, often over trivial points. In an academic journal there's time to haggle over every detail, but in a daily newspaper they need to process content pretty quickly without getting bogged down.
Still, I do think they could try harder to make sure they're not distorting what the author is trying to say. For instance, when a letter or commentary is too long, they should really just send it back to the author and let the author shorten (or withdraw) it. In the old days that might have taken too long, but now, with email, I suspect the turnaround time would usually be less than a day.
Dan:
Well, we disagree. I wrote letters with some frequency to another mid-sized city paper over the years. All edits [other than grammar and punctuation] were read back first, when they happened. Sometimes they'd call and say "we'll take it, but you need to cut 50 words."
Someone who wanted to argue over trivia can/should just be told: "we won't print it as you have it; we think it violates one of our letters policies. You can concur with the change we've made or withdraw your letter." End of discussion. I've seen it work, and I don't see any reason it wouldn't work with the SE.
At least two people now, you and one other, have said that you think the changes they made altered either the content or the tone of what was submitted, and so conveyed an edge [in the other case] or a wishy-washyness [in your case] that you did not wish to convey. The SE does... and must... control content of its letter column, but for readers to have confidence that what they are reading does in fact reflect accurately both content and tone of the original author, it should not edit content without giving the author the opportunity to concur or to pull the letter if he thinks the changes substantive and resulting in something he did not wish to convey.
Now I'm wondering what the policy is at most papers on letters. Silent editing [beyond grammar and punctuation] or not? Anybody know?
Curm:
I don't know the answer to your last question, but I suspect that many newspapers edit letters without getting approval from authors.
As for our disagreement, it's a question of where to draw the line, and whether a clear line can be drawn. Your exception for "grammar and punctuation" can even be problematic, because errors in grammar and punctuation often leave the meaning ambiguous, and an editor may guess wrong about which meaning the author intended. But what about errors, or apparent errors, in word usage? What about other edits that simply clean up poor writing? I've done a lot of editing myself and there are plenty of cases where I know I'm doing the author a favor, whether the author realizes it or not. (I edit book reviews for an academic journal; in this case authors always have the final say when they see the page proofs--though I suppose the production editors would still screen anything atrocious.)
As for picking up the phone and reading the change to the author, you make it sound easy. But often it'll take a day or two of phone tag to reach the author, and you still run the danger of getting into an argument over the phone. Is it worth the trouble? Sometimes yes, but sometimes no, I suspect. Ultimately I think it comes down to a matter of judgment, and some editors have better judgment than others.
Dan:
I don't think silently correcting errors in grammar and spelling would be a problem except in the rarest of cases. Though I knew an editor once who did not correct for them. His argument was the illiteracy of a writer says something to readers about him, and provides information about him that readers are entitled to when weighing his arguments and opinions. He just included a notice, every issue, that letters to the editor were run verbatim. [I disagreed, by the way, and think papers ought to silently clean up grammar/punctuation/spelling errors in letters. But no more than that.]
You wrote: But what about errors, or apparent errors, in word usage? What about other edits that simply clean up poor writing?
Well, in such cases in newspapers my view would be, let them run. A poorly written letter will [I hope] be less persuasive than a well written one. It's not the paper's job to see that letter-writers make their arguments well. It's the paper's job to present their arguments, as they made them, and to make no substantive changes without their consent.
You wrote: I've done a lot of editing myself and there are plenty of cases where I know I'm doing the author a favor, whether the author realizes it or not. (I edit book reviews for an academic journal; in this case authors always have the final say when they see the page proofs-- I've worked as a book review and mss. editor too, and the customary practice you describe is, at bottom, exactly what I say the SE should adopt: edit if you think it wise, but give the author the chance to say no to your changes.
From my POV, what's at stake is a pretty fundamental matter for a newspaper [even more so, I agree, for an academic publication]: can readers be confident that what they are reading was written by the person under whose name it appears, that it accurately conveys what he wanted conveyed rather than [in this case] what the LTE editor thought he must have intended to convey or thought he should have said. Big big difference there.
With the best intentions in the world, you can change someone's meaning without intending to. I don't know about your experience, but I've gotten calls from writers whose work I've edited, when they got the page proofs or the galleys, insisting [loudly] that "you've changed the meaning of what I wrote." Not often, thank heavens, but it's happened. [I've also made those calls when I've gotten my own galleys back.]
If I were an editorial page editor, I think I'd want to err on the side of author's accuracy. If that takes a few extra phone calls or delays a letter appearing for a few days on occasion... well, then, that's what it takes.
Since the topic seems to have morphed into "The SE" [yet again], let me note that there are two other items in today's paper worth chewing over, maybe.
The first is the lead editorial, which offers suggestions about how Ogden can/should tap into is rail history and tradition to foster the city's growth in a variety of ways. Link here.
The second is the lead story on the front page, headlined [accurately I think]: "Mass Transit At Issue." The story is about new attempts by state representative Wayne Harper [West Jordan] and state senator Sheldon Killpack [Syracuse] to eliminate the UTA by having it absorbed by the DOT. [Is it necessary to add that both sponsors of this bill designed primarily to sink Utah's public transit agency into Utah's road building agency are Republicans? Surely not.]
Here's how the SE describes the bill: If eventually passed by the Legislature, the bill would result in the UTA’s being disbanded and its responsibilities being taken up by the Utah Department of Transportation.
A very bad idea IMHO. Link to the story is here.
What about the Standard just flat out refusing to print letters to the editor that are unfavorable to the Godfrey Administration?
Its happened to me a few times. I know a couple of others that have had the same experience.
Their normal excuse is something like:
"Our readers are not all from Ogden, therefore we don't want to be too slanted toward Ogden articles"
or
"We have already printed letters on that subject and our readers want variety"
This in spite of most of the rejections being rebutals to lies Godfrey has told the press or written in his editorials (which they always print).
In other words, the Standard does not, and will not print rebuttals to Godfrey's tall tales.
Frank:
Well, in defense of the SE, two points: (a) most of its readers are not from Ogden but from Davis County and towns outside Ogden. Less than half their circulation is within the city. Hence their argument that the letters column needs to reflect more than Ogden's problems has some merit. I'd probably think the same way if I were an editor looking at the same numbers.
And (b) they have printed letters, and op ed pieces, in opposition to Godfrey and his actions and proposals. Not as many as you and I might prefer, but they have printed them.
Unless they're going to print every letter they get submitted [and I don't think they will, or for that matter, can], they have to make a selection from what comes in. They haven't taken every letter I've sent either. And much of what they don't put in the print edition goes up on the website. While I suspect you and I might select differently --- in fact I'm pretty sure we would --- it is not fair to say they won't print criticisms of Godfrey and his administration. They do and they have.
On the other hand, as I recall, they did impose some months ago a flat moratorium on all gondola letters [from either side] for a while. That was a bad idea. [If they are getting a lot of letters on a topic like that, they ought to take it as an indication of reader interest.] I hope we are done with the flat moratoriums on any topic.
The more I contemplate the Neeley letter, the more I chortle. As with all gondola jihadists, the letter reflects cramped assumptions that 1) the fading of Ogden's flower must be avenged and 2) we must seize on this incomparable opportunity to restore Ogden's honor through a publicly-subsidized amusement park ride.
Publicly, I have no choice but to believe Mr. Neeley's enthusiasm for the gondola is in addition to the loyalty to Ogden he's already showing as a private citizen:
-Resisting all urges to patronize Davis County restaurants and eating out only at Ogden's many fine dining establishments;
-Supporting WSU's and Lindquist Field's athletic events rather than those in the Energy Solutions Center;
-Shopping in Ogden whenever possible, fighting off the Gateway's temptations as he would an impure thought;
-Seeking entertainment at the Egyptian Theater, Ogden Ampitheatre, Union Station, and Browing Center rather than in Salt Lake.
MM
"gondola jihadists"!
[grin] Love it!
Curm: I'm probably beating this issue to death, but I still think you're over-stating the similarities between academic journals and newspaper editorial pages. And you're under-stating the difficulty of implementing such a stringent letter-editing policy as you propose. I think we're basically in agreement that newspapers should try not to misrepresent what an author has said. But they also have the interests of readers to consider. Readers don't want to read stuff that's poorly written, or that's less timely because of delays caused by haggling with authors over edits. And neither readers nor advertisers are willing to pay for the level of editorial care that you seem to desire.
If you want total control over how your words appear in print, you probably shouldn't send them to a newspaper.
Frank: It's highly troubling to hear that the Standard-Examiner has rejected letters purely because of the viewpoint expressed. This has never happened to me but I've heard about it from enough others that I'm inclined to agree that there's been a real problem, at least at times. I know that the Standard-Examiner initially rejected Don Wilson's commentary, but they changed their mind and ran it a few weeks later when Godfrey submitted a commentary which they then ran on the same page. This uneven treatment was obviously a matter of bias on their part, kinda like the way they would print letters calling Bill Clinton a liar but not letters calling Jim Hansen a liar.
Still, I think they do pretty well overall. If they were completely biased in favor of the gondola, they would never have run today's letter which just makes the author look like a fool.
Got an e-mail today with all of the banter on this site regarding the Dorothy Littrell issue.
Mr. Neeley makes an unsubstantiated comment regarding his support of the Gondola, and you all throw a fit.
How about turning away $900,000 from our city.
It's clear where all this filth comes from....
Right here.
Thick-headed anonymoose,
Choose a cool and creative moniker. Please.
I'm o.k. with keeping govt. money although the case for deceiving the state should be left for guys like you.
Unfortunately the whole LiftOgden manifesto is unsubstantiated.
Want to throw us a little substance as long as your stickin' up for him?
A fact or two would help us have a conversation.
And for the hundredth time. Get a friggin' name.
fuck you guys
The recent gondola study showed that the project would create nearly $39 mil for Ogden City Schools. Nice little fact.
The recent gondola study showed that the project would created $19 million for Ogden City.
Mike Dowse Of Amer Sports has made it expressly clear that the Gondola project is important to Amer Sports and its move to Ogden.
The salaries from the Ski Companies alone amount to nearly $25 million annually.
Investment dollars by the millions are flowing into Ogden on the speculation that the project is going to happen.
$900,000 in state funds came to the city to renovate historical buildings in support of Amer's arrival.
UTA has expressed interest in managing and operating the Gondola project.
The recent study showed that the Gondola would cost only $20 million to build. This is 1/5th the cost of the street car.
The recent study showed that 800,000 people would likely ride the gondola across town. ANNUALLY!
The amount of the recent bond for the school district, which was too little to cover the district's needs, could be more than covered by the Gondola project.
Just a few that have come out in the last week or so.
What happened to the blog article where you all dismissed Amer and hailed Ms. Littrell for trying to push $900,000 out of the city? Too embaracing?
I've seen the postings ver batum.
So....a lot of people have seen those postings. It doesn't prove anything.
struck a nerve, eh anon,
No expletives fired from this end. funny you claim the ill will starts here. look in the mirror my friend.
better refill the xanax script, and back off the viagra too.
all your facts are press release stuff. none of it has come from anyone objective and impartial. uta wants to back this thing? you do read what you want into the recent stories don't you.
I'll hand off to one of our other posters if they have the energy.
Rudi, let these posts stand please. it's a slow night on tv...good laughs
can't wait for tomorrows' republican pro-war circle jerk.
are they letting Ron Paul in this time? only guy with something interesting to say.
anon.... please get a name.
I like the would of, and could of, and all the iffy things that this city administation stands for. But where are the hard facts! I think that we could say this and could say that and maybe this will happen but, where are the facts?
The facts are the administration has spend us in to a hugh amount of debt, and now lets tell the people this is a would of and could of thing.
All one has to do is look at the Eccles conference center to see the real facts. That it is losing a cool $1,000,000.00 dollars a year.
Yeah, TEC.
I'm letting those posts stand.
We sometimes need a reminder of how really dumb these gondolists are.
Anon:
You wrote: The recent gondola study showed that the project would create nearly $39 mil for Ogden City Schools. Nice little fact.
The recent gondola study showed that the project would created $19 million for Ogden City.
UTA has expressed interest in managing and operating the Gondola project.
The recent study showed that the Gondola would cost only $20 million to build. This is 1/5th the cost of the street car.
The recent study showed that 800,000 people would likely ride the gondola across town. ANNUALLY!
Have you actually read the study? I doubt it since the study shows none of the above. None. What it is, and what the investment consulting firm made very clear in the study, is that if you assume all Mr. Peterson's and Mr. Godfrey's claims are true, and you analyze none of them, and if you look at no feasibility studies of the projects [as the consultants did not], then you will get the numbers you cite. But only if you assume all the Godfrey/Peterson promises, guess, projections, estimates and wishin' and hopin' and dreamin' numbers are valid.
As for the 800K projected ridership, that was based in part on a study done in 1998 [cited in the study] which looked at a tram [not gondola] leaving from the bench below Taylor Canyon [not downtown] going to Snow Basin [not Malan's Basin]. The $20,000,000 cost estimate was for a gondola with no stops between downtown and WSU based on construction cost estimates now three years old. The latest "plan" the Godfrey/Peterson have permitted anyone to see calls for two additional stops between downtown and WSU's upper campus terminal and an extension from the lower campus to the upper, substantially increasing the projected cost by millions. The latest estimate involving the five- stop flatland gondola that extends to the upper campus comes out in the neighborhood of 40 million plus, not 20. And UTA has not only not expressed an interest in operating the downtown gondola, it has stated in no uncertain terms that it absolutely is not interested in operating the downtown gondola for it is not a mass transit option.
The list goes on and on. I suggest you actually read the report before commenting on it. The entire report. Having done so myself, I can understand why the Mayor was so reluctant to have it become public.
By the way, you did notice that the WSU regents said in no uncertain terms that WSU is not interested in selling Mr. Peterson the University land he wants to buy, and that Mr. Peterson is on record as saying that without the WSU land his entire project is dead. Or did you miss that? Kind of hard to reconcile all that with your insistence that the project will happen.
You want to engage on the issues, fine. Welcome aboard. But you'll do better if you inform your self before you start to argue your points.
Oh, like, mygawd...is this like, deja vu or whaaaat??
This is like the olden days when bobby g. and curt, and all their tiny minded friends would post here anonymously and just, like, speil the most inane and insane drivel.
I think some of these are written by either Matt, or his inner circle....those inflated numbers for touristas riding that goofdola are curt geiger insane!
Why this town couldn't handle 1/4 million people pouring in here.
Some of the excrement being flung here by these uncreative people wasn't even in the SE hype.
The LO's have laid low for awhile, which must have had mean-mouthed bobby simply frothing, and now they are out of the woodwork.
Expect we'll see a swarm of them at the City Council meetings now.
It seems that there is more than one anon writing here...
and Rudi, why did you allow that F--- to stay? I can see that you would let the other posts by these idiots stay, just so we can all see what FOM's are really like: Just as dumb as we remembered. But when they use that kind of filth, I think you need to delete their posts.
None is so blind as one who will not see, or one so obviously stupid as this "anonymous".
This series of strange posts is typical of the intelligence of the gondola crowd. There was not one thing he ranted on that was accurate! Not one!! It was all lies about Godfrey's lies.
Dontcha just love this blind faith in the bat shit crazy ramblings of a demented and dishonest leader.
Shades of Jim Jones and his kool aid gang.
Well...at least Jones's group enjoyed all that natural beauty without a damned gondola and its rusting towers obliterating the view!
Quip of the Day:
Sitting in Grounds for Coffee on Harrison this morning, people a table over were talking about the Mt. Ogden brush fire --- smoke and flames visible through the window. One wondered how it had started.
A table a way, guy working on a laptop, said loud enough to hear: "Maybe Godfrey's getting more land ready to sell. We know what happened to the Shupe building."
And people began laughing out loud at several tables.
Too good a quip not to pass on.
Priceless quip re: Shupe/Godfrey.
While I personally have no problem with the F-bomb, I wonder how that anonymous patriot can post it and keep his temple recommend?
Sneak Peak
Check it out, The Junction is opening!!
$25 for the sneak peak gets you grub and all the fun including free movies.
See ya there
I'm happy to see that the Envision Ogden group finally corrected the spelling of the name of Ogden's new "recreation center". This event was listed on the website last week as taking place at the "Salamon Center".
See you there.
Tec:
Hope it goes well, though $25 bucks a pop seems a tad on the high side for an entice the public in for a look see. It's like some of those "City Passes" you find offered in various places... I think SLC has one... discounted one price gets you into six or ten attractions. True, you can save a bundle if you intended to visit all or most of the attractions. If not, not so good.
But we shall see.I could be wrong. Hell, when attending a Sunday morning showing at the mall theaters with a medium coke and the smallest possible bag of pop corn [the attendant sneers in derision when you order it] taps out just south of 14 bucks, the wrist band may be attractive after all.
I didn't notice: is there a kidde price? Or are all 25 bills? If the latter, mom, dad and say two kids comes in at a C-note for the evening. We'll see.
Hope they have good weather, a large turnout, and venues full of very happy customers. How many will return regularly for non-discounted access we will have to wait to see.
Further light and knowledge on the credentials of those who hurl anathemas at humble gondola skeptics such as congregate on this here Forum ... Mr. Neeley, whose telegram proffered us a "middle-finger salute," is a returned missionary whose first wife was the daughter of a bishop.
So the chintzy around the edges is already showing on the "sneak peak"
With the wrist band at $25 you can see any movie you want, as long as it isn't a first rate one, and also if there is space available! Translation - you can get into the old movies, ones that you most likely can also see for free on TV now or in the near future.
You can get into fat cats - except the rides that the whole damn thing is predicated upon (wind tunnel and surf ride)
You can grease down at the second rate mexican or pizza places - one pass only! (this leaves out the fatties I suppose).
Boy oh boy, I just can't wait!
I heard the Godfrey really isn't going to run and that he is getting ready to endorse a women to take his place. There are powers that be in this community that just will not let the citizens have any say in what is going on in our city.
They will not stop anything to still have control of every thing we live by.
Is it true that Mayor Meachem is still breathing on the whole scheme here?
Mary Lou:
Hey, the joint ain't open yet. Kind of hard to pronounce the food second rate before they've served up a single enchilada or pepperoni and extra cheese pie. Who knows? Maybe the pizza maker is from Brooklyn and so they'll make 'em like God intended.
In any case, any eatery is entitled to open and serve up a plate or two before getting a bad review, que no?
I kind of like Costa Vida...
for a trendy BajaMexiGrillyWhiteBreadCaterToCaucasiansSafeKindOfMexicanFoodPlace...
it ain't bad. No lard in the beans and cooked on site. Why do most mexican places lace the beans with lard anyway??Beans are cooked most excellent with a little salt. They also make their tortillas right there on the rotating hotplate. Try the tortillas de maiz. A couple of those and the baja bowl and your set.
Tec:
So, it's a chain store, Costa Vida? And what the devil is a "baja bowl?" My hope would be it's a fishbowl of Dox Equis or Carta, but I suspect not.
baja bowl=burrito-tortilla
in other words, put the beans, rice etc. in a bowl and I'll build my tacos the old fashioned way. This is how mexican food was traditionally served. You have your food and you eat it with a tortilla...hence a fresh hand-tucked taco or hand-rolled tortilla. Only thing they are missing is cabbage. Lettuce in Mexican Food is another Americanization. Tasteless greens. Cabbage, Lime, Cilantro, Avocado, Salt is the baja way. Ummmm I'm hungry.
The Pizza factory and the Costa Vita are both "Chains"
The Costa Vita is a glorified Taco Bell, and every thing in every store is the same as every other store. Same with the Pizza Factory.
There will be no one from Brooklyn doing the pizza the way itssupposedtobe. Sorry bout that.
So cummon down to YOUR $50 million dollar mall anchored by a bowling alley, an arcade, a couple of carnival rides and two boring fast food chains.
What, you expected some high class joints in Godfrey's folly?
Curmudgeon
The "Chef's" at both places are graduates of the Gordon Blue culinary institute of Paris, Texas.
Chef Renaldo of Costa Vita is joining us after 3 months at the famous Taco Time in the Riveria region of the South of Spanish Fork. Before that he was with Big Al's Tires in South Salt Lake.
Chef Chad of the Pizza Factory served most recently in the busy kitchen's of the fabulous Weber County Correctional facility where he served up mouth watering Pizza every Saturday evening to adoring patrons before his recent release for good behavior.
If you want real authentic Mexican Food go to Taco Taco on about 28th and Washington. For good Pizza try Tony's in South Ogden. They have been doing it right for at least 40 years.
Oz and ML:
Thanks. I'm not familiar with either chain. Will say this: the food options, as you describe them, seem appropriate for "arcade" eating, pretty much on a par with what I've seen at arcade settings elsewhere. May work, then. Also seems clear the two venues will not compete with the Restaurant Row eateries on History 25th Street. They don't appear to be after the same crowd of an evening. In that sense... the food joints fit the arcade setting and are not likely to draw from customers on 25th Street, they may be well chosen for the venue.
Thanks again for the info.
what did you want? An Olive Garden?
In the Spirit of Good Fellowship and Putting Ogden First, a Suggestion for Envision Ogden....
Just checked the "buy tickets on line" site, and there does not seem to be a "kiddie ticket" available, only full price $25 tickets for the Sneak Peak [ooohhh, clever] event. Nor could I find anything about "children under X admitted free." Since this is an event designed to bring folks down to check out the new mall attractions, and since if there is no kiddie discount, it will cost a C-note for a family of four to buy passes for the event --- and lots more if they have more kids, as families hereabouts tend to --- it might be wise to either establish a half-price kiddie ticket for under the age of [pick an age], or to post prominently on the ticket sale site: "Free wristbands for children under X years old." One or the other.
Just a suggestion, guys.
Did you guess that your engineer of fantasy and frolic doesn't want any kids at this 'sneak peek'?
Oh Ozboy...I laff at your face AND out loud! Deeeliteful! I thot St Anne's mite send over a server or two, but they tend to pee on the sidewalk, and I'm sure THAT'S frowned on at the local correctional facility. So Chef Chad will be better behaved.
Mary Lou has the whole operation pegged to a T! But, we must remember that our fantasy and frolic engineer SAID he wanted "Ogden to be the first in the country with a mall anchored by a rec center and a bowling alley."
I am sooo happy that his dreeeeam is coming true, even if the whole area is littered with construction materials. THAT'S probably why the steep 'no kiddie' discount: Discouraging kids from running amok and being injured and the city having ANOTHER lawsuit.
I agree that Historic 25th St eateries won't lose much business. Do you think people will be going into 25 St establishments asking to use the bathrooms? John Patterson should be worried about that.
After all, it won't just be those homeless 'bums' peeing on our teeming and pristine sidewalks if "thousands" show up!
Are you aware that the bribe king wants ONE MILLION DOLLARS so he can 'help' small businesses locate here who otherwise would have a hard time?
Maybe that's ONE HUNDRED MILLION. That would be more in keeping with his grandiose thinking and personality disorder.
Even at 100 mil...at $ 12 mil handouts...he can only 'help' about eight businesses.
We need to be telling the Council to sign committment papers on this loon.
Sharon:
OK, possible they are not looking to have kids around, particularly. But I did note this from the FAT CATS link for the event: "let the youngsters romp in the Kid Zone Playland." So somebody is figuring on the chirrin being along.
Anyway, it was just a suggestion.
Sharon
Thanks, or as my dad used to say: "five thousand comedians out of work and you want to tell stupid jokes!"
Ozboy, you coulda been on the stage!
Hurry pal, one leaves in a minute!!
hey all you comedians, you would sell a lot of t.v's. I know that I would sell mine.
Funny!
SE has a good lead editorial this morning headed "Hands off UTA," opposing the loopy plans of a handful of Republican legislators to have UDOT take over all UTA's functions. Well worth reading. It is, happily, on the SE's free site. Link here.
What no fake outrage over selling a piece of land under appraised value???
Be sure you know the facts on both sides of the UTA takeover plan.
According to people at the Legislature NO ONE controls UTA..they do their own thing and there is no control.
hannitized:
I assume you're talking about the Shupe-Williams property. According to this article in today's Standard-Examiner, the City Council has agreed to sell the property to the Union Station Foundation for $510,000, which is $5000 less than the appraised value.
A couple of points. First, the difference between the appraised value and the sale price is less than 1%. I find it hard to believe that appraisals are accurate to that level of precision. Second, there's no indication that the city has received a better offer, even though it's been widely known for a long time that the property was for sale. Indeed, the article describes how the administration tried unsuccessfully to talk Chianti into buying the property. So this doesn't appear to be a case of cronyism.
I do find it odd that the newspaper highlighted the difference between the sale price and the appraised value, yet didn't give anyone from the city a chance to comment on the reason for the difference.
Sounds like the IRS AND Godfrey's administration under his teensy but powerful thumb.
Sociopaths apparently don't need physical size when a massive ego, mean spirit, hubris and vengeful personality will suffice as a control agent.
Sorry about the broken link in my previous post. Should have tested it first. Apparently the Standard-Examiner Digitial Edition email feature is generating bad links today. The article is at the top of the Top o' Utah section.
hannitized,
What do you mean by fake outrage? What are you implying?
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