Local officials seem to be stuck in a highway rut
By Dan S.
There are two articles this morning on a very important topic: Both the Standard-Examiner and the Tribune report that the Weber County Commissioners have voted to put a sales tax measure on this November's ballot. The measure would raise local sales tax by 0.25% (a quarter penny on each dollar), and spend the money on transportation projects. Although the details of how the money would be spent haven't yet been determined, it appears that most would go for roads and much less for transit.
It's important to realize that roads have never been funded this way before in Weber or Davis County. Roads are traditionally funded by the gasoline tax, none of which goes toward other government services. Lately, the legislature has diverted a significant amount of general fund money into roads as well. Roads in new subdivisions are traditionally put in by developers at their own expense.
Meanwhile, the only local tax money that goes to transit is the local option sales tax. If we want to make major new investments in transit within a reasonable time period, this is the only way the Legislature has allowed us to do it. Transit gets no gas tax money (even though drivers benefit from reduced congestion when others ride transit), and transit gets no general fund money from the legislature.
Another important point is that we're already spending vastly more on new highway projects than on new transit (except in Salt Lake County). The WFRC long range plan calls for over $6 billion in new-capacity highway projects in Weber and Davis Counties over the next 24 years. As Commissioner Zogmaister says in the Trib article, this proposed sales tax will "barely make a dent" in highway spending. But if you spend the same money on transit it can make a huge difference. For instance, the tax would raise much more than what's needed to build Ogden's proposed streetcar system (assuming a reasonable federal match to the local funds).
But instead of investing in central Ogden, our elected officials would apparently prefer that we subsidize sprawl in west Weber County and encourage our residents to commute to jobs in Salt Lake.
Well, obviously I could go on and on about this. But I'll shut up for now and just encourage everyone to keep an eye on this issue as the details get ironed out before the election.
Update 6/27/07 1:30 p.m. MT: We find two other Std-Ex items worthy of our readers' attention this afternoon.
First, we encourage our readers to check out this marvellous Sharon Beech letter to the editor. It comes as no surprise that the Godfreyite cult wants to shut her up. She speaks the truth frankly and unabashedly. Godfreyites, of course, can't handle the truth.
Secondly, we suggest our readers take a gander at this most excellent Std-Ex blog article (Mark Shenefelt): Forage, loot and pillage. We swear we couldn't have stated the case better ourselves. In truth, we're filing this blog piece in our file folder, under the heading: "Articles we wish we'd written."
Update 6/28/07 10:30 a.m. MT: Our readers are invited to jump into the conversation in the comments section below, where the discussion has morphed into comments in re this morning's Standard-Examiner article, wherein Boss Godfrey announces his intention to run for the Mayor chair again: Godfrey seeks third term as Ogden’s mayor .
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136 comments:
Excellent post Dan,
So frustrating that transit gets just token lip service. Why is it that politicians are the last to consider the two most critical issues of our time, Peak Oil and Global Warming.
Everyone, see "Sicko" coming out Fri. Wonder if it'll be playing at our newest screens. Michael Moore scores a huge hit this time. You do not have to be Dem or Repuke to relate to the HMO disaster we have constructed in the good ole USA
Yeah, great points Dan S. The North Legacy Highway project and other very pricey and unsustainable road projects are indeed creeping up on us. More roads = more congestion, I'm afraid it will be too late before many Utahns realize that. I don't mind so much that commuters choose to live in Ogden and work in SLC (it is an economic reality for many), but would much rather they are given more and better mass transit options than just more roads
Tec,
Not all politicians. In Salt Lake County they have very ambitious transit plans: four TRAX extensions plus an extension of commuter rail all the way through the county. They're still spending too much on highways, but the imbalance is nothing compared to what we're facing in Weber and Davis.
Many people in Ogden are fond of making comparisons to Salt Lake. As companies decide whether to locate in one or the other, one of their primary considerations will be proximity to transit lines. In another decade Salt Lake County will have one of the best transit systems on the continent--probably the best for a metropolitan area of its size. Meanwhile, if most of this new sales tax is spent on roads, Weber County will have three commuter rail stations plus a bunch of buses.
To amplify on Noah's comments...
North Legacy Highway, from Farmington all the way up to Smith and Edwards, is expected to cost over $1.6 billion between now and 2030. For that we will get a four-lane arterial in north Davis County and a two-lane arterial through Weber County, plus enough right-of-way to someday expand it to about 12 lanes and 8 lanes, respectively, if the cost can be justified. This highway would be a disaster for downtown Ogden because it will make it easier for residents of west Weber County to travel south than to travel east. In fact, 80% of the planned highway spending in Davis and Weber Counties is on the three major north-south corridors: north Legacy, widening I-15, and widening US 89. The whole idea is to add more capacity for people to make long rush-hour commutes into Salt Lake. Yet at present, only 3.3% of Weber County residents commute to Salt Lake each day. (The percentage is quite a bit higher in Davis County.)
For those who do choose to live in Weber County and work in Salt Lake, the FrontRunner will potentially offer an excellent alternative. However, we need better connections between Weber County's three FrontRunner stations and the surrounding neighborhoods. The short-term solution is park-and-ride lots, but those still require commuters to have a car that can be left there all day, and you can only make the lots so big before you run out of real estate and/or reasonable walking distance from the lot to the boarding platform. Buses can work in principle, but experience shows that most middle-class folks are unwilling to ride buses. That's why we need streetcars, at least in Ogden City where we have the density to support this kind of an investment.
BULLETIN
Godfrey is on KSL with that lackey, Doug Wright, who is fawning all over Godfrey.
Godfrey has announced he's running for a third term.
Wright is telling him that even down in CA people are talking about Ogden! The mayor laughs so sweetly in his self deprecating (aw shucks) manner...'thanx, but it's not JUST me (wanna bet?), but we have an incredible team...even tho there are those who ..." and here he interjects the 'naysayer's of gloom who haven't caught the vision.
His next focus is to finish the downtown..we're already known as the 'weekend getaway'.
Oh, what a lovefest...about like Doug Jardine and the mayor on his 'take no callers on my live call-in- TEEVEE show in which I snooker the viewers again. But, not just with my mouth, but with the help of the silver-tongued Jardine!"
Yep, hold your hats, puppies, and little children. It's gonna be a bumpy ride.
Godfrey's in let the games begin..
Dan...excellent review of what is going on in Weber and Davis Counties.
We've heard the 1/4 percent tax rate spoken of in other meetings.
We must concentrate on a streetcar system...not just for inner city transportation, but to upgrade our inner cty and core downtown.
That is how cities are being reborn econnomically. Businesses spring up all along the corridor of streetcar transit.
Godfrey running again is a sad portent for Ogden. We must, as Jeske and some others on the Council, have urged: Place the parklands in trust.
How else can we protect our treasures? After the novelty of a flowrider and hang glider wear off, our park, trails, golf course, etc will be Ogden's biggest draw!
Well said again, Dan.
Saddest thing is the situation over the next decade is set thanks to local lack of leadership. They'd have to get serious and agressive today just to get us online in 20 years. Pretty bleak. Fortunately for a lot of us in Ogden it is less than a couple of miles to the Frontrunner.
Godfrey's in the race. Surprise, surprise.
As far as transportation, I feel the streetcar should run down Washington, then turn toward WSU or Riverdale, depending on where it would do the most good. I don't see very many boarding it on Harrison, and the all Washington route would stimulate activity along the Vard. I fear this route is along the lines of what Godfrey has suggested too. Well, so we agree on something.
But what I really like, are FREEWAYS! Thank goodness we are building some. Being able to go where we want, when we want, in a car, is one of the great boons of the free enterprise system. Only when gas hits $10 a gallon will we abandon this wonder and look at public transportation, as a populace.
I cherish you people for your comments. But I do love my car. Heaven help me, I do love it so.
Legacy highway and all highway projects are just an extension of the massive suburban infrastructural buildout of America.
The most likely scenario in a decade or two will be that these highways will be empty or converted to transit corridors to enrich the wealthy even more as the excess corridor is then converted to station side real estate.
No one is willing to admit that in the very near future we will have severe fuel rationing for personal motorized transport. Just raising fuel prices will curb our prodigious consumption and sooner or later it will become an issue of national security. We are in Iraq precisely to procure a secure supply of fuel for our military. If we were not there or when we leave that gap in fuel supply will be coming out of our gastanks. We will not be leaving soon under any circumstances. That is the fantasy that is being perpetrated on the American people. Our leaders cannot afford to lead us because the populace are not ready. They will be out of a job.
I meant to say...
Just raising fuel prices will not curb our prodigious consumption and sooner or later it will become an issue of national security.
I love my car too.
Especially when we're bonded for an hour in UNmoving traffic on the FREEWAY (what a minomer)..because, because, there was a wreck in the southbound lane, and we, attempting to go north, were stalled from 600 North past 2300 North becasue of rubber neckers!
A UHP and a police car were in traffic with us. They should have gotten on both E and W shoulders, pulled out their batons, and waved traffic to keep going at freeway speed.
A flashing sign that sys "ACCIDENT AHEAD..DO NOT SLOW DOWN...RUBERNECKERS WILL BE TICKTED FOR $500. would help immensely.
It only takes about ten of these jokers to stop cars for several miles back!
And, why, when only one lane is snarled with a fender bumper, does traffic have to crawl in all lanes?
Cops could do a better job of pushing traffic along, instead of parking with their lites on and doing nothing.
Police cars on the shoulder also snarl traffic for a couple miles while the 'guilty' brake.
Dan:
Hear, hear.
The world will be a different place in 20 years. We need to anticipate, and plan for, those changes now.
If I were King of the Known Universe, we'd have a carbon tax with the funds directed toward sustainable energy generation and public transit projects.
For the reasons stated here, I don't think you'll ever get rid of the automobile, or roads.
I can envision a future where we have electric cars powered (indirectly) through sustainable energy sources.
I can also envision sensor systems for high-volume roadways that will allow much higher levels of traffic density than human beings, with their crummy reflexes, can handle.
Mass transit is an important part of this future world I envision as well. Walk, drive an electric car, or bike to a "hub", get on the train or streetcar or bus that comes every 5 minutes, go to Salt Lake, catch a show, have dinner, be back the same evening with virtually zero traffic hassle and minimal energy footprint.
That's my dream, anyway.
Tec,
I'm not as pessimistic as you about transit in Weber County. There's a chance that the mix of projects funded by this upcoming sales tax initiative can be tipped toward transit. If that doesn't happen, then we should simply vote it down to send a message that they need to put more transit into the mix before they bring it back. It's really too early to vote on funding transit projects this November anyway, because the Alternatives Analysis for the downtown-WSU corridor hasn't even begun. How can we vote when we don't even know whether we're voting for streetcars or buses?
Danny,
The studies have already been done that show that the most promising transit corridor in Ogden is between downtown and south Harrison. Weber State and McKay-Dee are both huge destinations where parking is quite scarce, so it doesn't make sense to leave either of them out of the plan. As for how to get from downtown to south Harrison, the 2005 feasibility study looked at many possible alignments including some that went farther south on Washington or Wall before turning east. These alignments were rated less favorably because they miss the east-central neighborhood where there are quite a few apartments and residents who don't drive. There are also some good opportunities for transit-oriented development in the east-central neighborhood and around 31st and Harrison. These apparently outweigh the benefit of picking up more of Washington and perhaps the Newgate Mall area. In the long term, however, a separate transit improvement for all of Washington (north and south of downtown) is also planned. But we need to start with the route that is mostly likely to succeed in the shorter term.
Don't worry, cars aren't going to go away, and neither are freeways. It's just a question of balance and giving people a reasonable range of choices. People who want to live on half-acre lots on the suburban fringe, and commute an hour each way to their jobs, have that choice. Moreover, we're already paying for the freeways that they drive on, and we will continue to pay through our gasoline taxes and state sales taxes. But do we really want to raise our taxes just to provide even more of a subsidy for that lifestyle?
There are many good reasons to use transit besides high gas prices. If downtown Ogden continues to develop, parking there will become scarce and expensive. On long trips, you can get a lot of work done on a train but not if you're driving a car. (The FrontRunner will have WiFi!) I like transit just because I feel like a human being, interacting with other human beings and not surrounded by steel and glass isolation shells. Of course transit improves air quality. And riding on a rail transit system (streetcar or larger) is just plain fun.
Thanks, Rudi, for creating a new thread for this important topic.
Here's another after-thought: The Standard-Examiner article mentions that the Chambers of Commerce are hiring a marketing firm called Exoro to manage a campaign to sell this tax increase to voters. I attended a WACOG meeting a couple months ago where the Chamber guy introduced the Exoro people. At that meeting, someone asked where the money for the campaign would come from. The answer was that they would get donations from interested parties who profit from highway construction, such as developers and construction companies.
So when you start seeing the press releases and commentaries and eventually the advertisements for this sales tax, remember who's paying for it.
I hasten to add that I don't recommend voting against this measure just because the campaign for it is funded in such a way. Ultimately voters will need to decide what's in the community's best interest.
I tend to be for small government, but one thing I do like is for government to do well, the things it’s supposed to do. One of those, it seems to me, are roads, which the people who use them, pay for. (And let’s have good police, fire, water, sewer, garbage pick up, pothole filling, record keeping, schooling, and other government stuff done well. But keep the government types away from business. They’re already in over their heads on the pothole filling.)
And so I’m glad we can vote to tax ourselves for more roads. Whether it’s 10 lanes of asphalt, or dirt, getting me where I want to go, I like roads.
Shipping lanes, canals, railroads, or roads, are what has made wealth and propelled humanity forward throughout history (if you agree that living is better today than it used to be.) If Godfrey really wanted to help Ogden, he’d have spent his millions on roads, not a joy dome. The former would have paid for itself. The latter will go bust before the ink on the bonds is dry.
The problem with people who want public transportation is that they’re like the people who are for gun control, all the while knowing that THEY plan to keep THIER guns, maybe even PACKING one, while hoping it will make it less likely that THEY will get shot by SOMEBODY ELSE. People who want public transportation tend not to use it, instead hoping others will, leaving more room on the FREEWAY for them! Yeah, ride the bus! Great idea, wink, wink. The problem is most people would rather drive too!
I hear that the bus from Ogden to SLC is full, and I suspect the Frontrunner will be too if they price it decently. And I hear Trax is working out. Great. If a trolley will work in Ogden, fine, as long as they put it somewhere where it won’t block the road.
But give me the roads. If they will build them honestly and competently, a long shot for Utah, they can take what money they need for them.
Interesting article from the Cache Valley For the People blog:
Why people don’t use mass transit
danny
How about a four laner to malan's basin and a giant paved parking lot there to accomodate every body that will cruise up to catch the sunsets? Scar the mountain, enjoy the natural beauty of the sun set!
I think what you are saying about cars and roads is true of how a great majority of people in these parts think.
It is going to be a major societal wave change to turn to mass transit. I think $10 or $15 bucks a gallon will make a big difference. That is if the mass transit empires don't start gouging the public.
The big cities in the east seem to have massive amounts of both mass transit and freeways. You can't drive down a country road more than a couple of miles in suburban D.C. with out running into another expressway or freeway or toll road.
Same within 50 miles of NYC.
Folks the world over seem to have developed a serious mass case of wanderlust! We are gypsies all!!!
Danny, are you projecting how you feel with the assumption that everyone truely share's your position? You are wrong, name any instance where increasing vehicle capacity hasn't more vehicles and ina very short time overfilled it'sown capacity. I-15 is a perfect example, upon each projects' completion we discover that it wasn't near adequate. We all have cars, and need them, but given a viable alternative with the changing conditions,(gas$,lack of and cost of parking and plain getting around, you may come to discover what most in the larger metropolitan areas in the world have figured out, public transportation offers you more freedom and ease getting around.
Danny,
Committing to mass public transit is not committing to getting rid of your car. Like Dan said, it's about creating choices while retaining our high mobility. It's be a foolish to spend the time and fuel driving to SLC for a Jazz game if one could hop the frontunner and ride in speed and comfort and actually meet some people. Personal transportation is so overrated. That statement is coming from one who has driven a million miles. I like having a car to. I won't go so far like you as to say I love my car. For me it's a bit of a love/hate relationship. I have never bought a car on credit so the expense is not the issue and fuel is still relatively cheap unless you have to commute more than 10 miles a day to a job that pays less than 30,000. Then you are fuelish. I, personally, get no satisfaction holding a steering wheel, maintaining full attention on a stream of traffic composed of a thousand drivers that you have no idea of their attention span, distraction factor or intoxicant level. There is a solid case for traveling in a modern rolling living room sharing an espresso with an attractive woman you would have never caught notice of as the two individuals wrangle for position on I-15. What scenario sounds more appealing to you?
So godfrey is running and the other announced candidate is Rep. Neil Hansen. Is this blog about railing on Godfrey or are we going to see something from both sides here.
From everything I see about Hansen is, in the past ten years or so of him being in the legislature is, that he is all about public service. What he can do for you, not about real estate deals, or my way or the high way, or law suits. This year he talked about the ticket quota system the city has and what that does for law inforcement in the cities. I watched as he tried to have the high adventure center be held accountable to the taxpayer for the 21.5 million dollars the mayor has spent. I think this Guy really has what it take to lead this community. We should all get behind him and make a change for the better. What do all you say.
Rudi,
Regarding your article above, it is a perfect quantification of what we all instinctively know about why people prefer cars. As such, it makes the point well.
Except I don’t like the idea that solo car driving is “running down the economy.” That makes as much sense as Rush Limbaugh saying “environmental regulation costs the economy so many billion a year,” or somebody saying our economy “wastes billions a year on video games.” These people don’t understand that what people want to spend their money on – IS the economy!
Dan's points about mass transit have some validity if one wishes to live near a train station. If the government would quit trying to plan urban areas and would leave them to nature (cutting taxes and regulation there – most urban areas are the most heavily taxed and regulated) people would do interesting things there and many would move into those areas. Mass transit would happen there too, whether the government did it or not, because the people would demand it with their dollars (although it might take the form of unregulated jitneys.) Bill (oh great one, and I mean that) if government would quit choking our urban areas, many would move back in, so you and I could enjoy the suburbs even more with less need for freeways.
Call it “creative destruction,” the “invisible hand,” or what have you, if you leave people alone they find things to do that other people like and want, and other people move in. It is government planning that has destroyed urban areas.
Peak oil? Where do people think all the billions of barrels of oil we’ve pumped came from in the first place, government planning? Global warming? Note that the more prosperous countries are also the most environmentally sensitive. Free people thrive, and a clean environment is one of the things they are willing to pay a lot of their money to have. (And Oz, I would pay dearly to keep Malans the way it is, by the way.) Once global warming has been proven, we will pay what we have to, to fix it. But free people have better things to do than chase every unproven theory that comes along – like playing video games and driving around in cars, for instance
Pennsylvania is more heavily populated than Bangladesh. Yet, one of Pennsylvania’s main industries is timber, and it always has been, for decades. You don’t see may trees in Bangladesh. They’ve burned them to make charcoal. But they do have a lot of government.
My fingers are tired. (BTW. I just calculated my annual miles. I find that I, for one, use public transportation more than I drive!)
Danny:
One of the tactics common in political dispute today is to charge people you don't agree with with the most extreme possible extension of their ideas. Any effort at gun control for example [like requiring say a two day waiting period for purchase by way of example] brings the NRA out screaming "they're going to take away your grandfather's hunting rifle!" Yesterday, I saw a cartoon in the SE I think, showing Edwards trying to sink a huge "No Growth" billard ball. [Edwards is not and never has been a "no growth" advocate."] A proposal to make torturing animals a felony has the yahoos ranting in the legislature that "they want to convict farmers as felons!" and so on.
Transit advocates, for the most part, are not advocating "taking away your roads" nor are they advocating never building another road. What they are advocating is that public transit should be a far more important part of the public-subsidized transportation mix [and all traffic is public subsidized to some extent] than it is now.
As someone who likes to drive as well [on long trips to fun places to be, not in cities], seems to me that one of transit's appeals for drivers is that it reduces the number of cars on the road. [One rationale for Frontrunner.] And there are all those full busses you mentioned....
This, couple with the fact that every study I've seen shows that building more roads does exactly nothing to relieve traffic, since all the new roads do is create still more traffic.... most interstates and interstate expansions are obsolete [in the sense that they end up carrying more traffic than they were designed for] within a year of their opening. Some are obsolete [using that as the measure] on the day they open. When you throw in the allied benefits of shifting some [not all], much [not all] traffic to transit [like reduced air pollution and thus reduced state-subsidized clean up technology, which is expensive], emphasizing transit more than we have begins to look like a no brainer.
So, nobody's going to take your car away, or start tearing up roads so you can't drive on them, or refuse ever to build another. On the other hand, I figure the public doesn't have an obligation to provide you with roads to every place you want to go, at any time, all the time, with low traffic whenever you feel like going.
When the founders met in Philadelphia to look at ways to fix the Articles of Confederation [the first US constitution, adopted in 1781], they kept saying that the existing constitution put too much power in the hands of the states and too little in the hands of the national government, and that their task at the convention was to "redress the balance." Good phrase, that: "redress the balance." That's exactly what I think Utah needs to begin doing with respect to the balance of resources applied to roads [too high for future needs] as opposed to public transit options [too low for present, much less future needs]. Redress the balance. Exactly.
And by the way, with respect to your suggestion that transit advocates really want other people to ride the bus or trolley, not themselves: I take the bus to work each day, and to GFC after work, and downtown occasionally for lunch, and back, and to the bank, and Smiths, and so on. And enjoy like hell driving to Moab and the Tetons when I get the chance. The question is not "all transit" vs "all roads." It's striking the right balance. And the choice is not between "give up your car" and "drive everywhere" but to use the car when that makes good sense, and use public transit when that does. [I am saving a small fortune per month using the bus for transit around town, since city driving is the least efficient and results in the lowest MPG. With gas prices north of three bucks a gallon, this matters.]
"Redress the balance." Founders had some pretty good ideas back then, ideas that can sometimes be profitably applied to other areas. That was one of them.
Note to Curt and Bobby.
Look, they're all ganging up on me, like they do you.
You ran away, Chicken.
But look who's still posting, Mister Pussypants!!
See, once my fingers cool off, I will support my position further, because I can.
What are these hard things on my fingertips?
Should we assume from Godfrey's decision that the poll he commissioned produced favorable #s? May be that the average voter in Ogden doesn't read the WC Forum.
If I were laying odds right now, I'd have to put Godfrey's re-election chances at better than 50% - something that does NOT bring a smile to my face. But I can't see him running if the polling data was unfavorable.
Call it “creative destruction,” the “invisible hand,” or what have you, if you leave people alone they find things to do that other people like and want, and other people move in. It is government planning that has destroyed urban areas.
Yesiree!
Big Gummint is without a doubt the biggest problem in Amerika.
I reread Mark Shenefelt's excellent article. I wanted to post a comment, but I guess my "registration" was rejected. I couldn't get on. So, Mr. Shenefelt, Mr. Porter told me the SE has a readership of 64,000. Therefore I hope you will submit this as a COMMENTARY...so that the 10% or so of readers who actually read the Opinion page, will see your excellent remarks.
The SE fiddled a little with my letter..making it sound like only the Geigers' revile women in public, I referred to this gang of hooligans as the G's...taking in all three. Porter thot it better not to lump Godfrey in with the Geigers too often.
Also, Curm...my original line said.."Several suggest the G's take Civics 101"...thus not hijacking your excellent post on the subject. Sorry about that.
You have an open offer to submit your original unedited text to us, Sharon.
As with the case of Dorothy Littrell's originally-submitted letter, we'd be delighted to see what text the Std-Ex pro-Godfrey propogandist editors decided to CHOP OUT!
Danny:
Not ganging up. Discussing. Kind of a back and forth and give and take [with so far blessedly no fishmongering name calling.] It's called a conversation.
And the G's are welcome to join in any time, as I'm sure they know.
"The G's"....darn.... I bet they will hijack that! Does have a bit of a ring to it, don'cha think?
Thanx, Rudi
curm...interesting to say that people are welcome to "join in" yet whenever truth is spoken Rudi deletes the comments. Makes one wonder who exactly "can't handle the truth?
Truth:
I've seen views posted here on all sides of all questions [we will leave aside for the moment the question of their accuracy]. What I've seen deleted are posts phrased as a middle schooler out of his Momma's sight for a while trying out some new words he learned in the boys room yesterday between classes yesterday might phrase them. If I were running a blog comment board, I'd delete those too.
Danny, not to gang up on you, where I live is not the best serviced transpartation area, far from it. If I want to take the frontrunner I will be required to drive a conciderable distance and then leave my car in some exposed parking lot in the middle of nowhere. Things out here will change and hopefully the rail will be my prefered option for trips to SLC. My concern is for Ogden, which is primed and ready to benefit from the addition of a streetcar. Especially the corridor through the inner city to the Mckay Dee hospital. I have not checked the number but was told,600.000 people a year go through those doors. Throw in the thousands that visit WSU and presto, Harrison BLVD. congestion can be somewhat mitigated. 4 of us met at Mt.Ogden Golf course in order to carpool to a tournament in Heber. It was a 2:00pm shotgun start and we left the parking lot at 11:30am,it took almost 1 hr. to get to the mouth of Weber Canyon, had it not been for a lead foot and lack of UHP budget, we'ed of missed the start time and been out our entry fees. That truely was my first realazation of how bad local congestion has become.
Davis and Weber Co. do need road improvements, but the real improvements they need don't parallel I-15, These Co. unwillingness and inabilty to control and plan growth has caused a nightmare as far as east west traffic is concerned. None of their east west thoroughfares are near wide enough to handle the developement they've allowed.
Rosie's raving over Sicko....what does that tell us?
Sicko on Sicko?
myhead:
What it tells me you have too much time on your hands and not much judgment if you're listening to Ms. ODonnel for information about public affairs. Makes about as much sense as listening to Bill "The Loofa King" O'Reilly for sensible discussion of public affairs.
I've only seen one clip from "Sicko" -- a woman telling about how she was in an accident, somebody called 911 and her insurance refused to cover the ambulance ride because she had not gotten it pre-approved. I was hit by a car in a crosswalk on Harrison Blvd. a little over a year ago, somebody [thank heaven's] called 911, the Ogden FD showed up with an ambulance in minutes, got me off the street, and carted me off to the emergency room, bleeding from head cuts, strapped to a backboard and with a leg broken... and my insurer refused to cover the ride in full because I had not gotten it pre-approved and the Ogden FD EMS vehicle was "out of system." Next time, I'll schedule getting hit by a car a week ahead so we can get the paper work and permissions done in advance and make sure the policy's contract ambulance service is the only one on the scene.
I don't know about the rest of Sicko but the one scene I've seen so far is, I can attest from personal experience, accurate.
Well, well, well ... Rupert the Producer? Do you think that title gives you credibility or some sort of cache in Teeny Matty Gondola Godfrey's world? Do you think making haughty, very-noticeable, missing-the-point self-deprecating references about your "straightness" and your yellow scarf, and your super-successful Bizazz Media will cause us all to forget The Bard's adminition of he who doth protest too much?
Choke on it, assclown, and go back to drinking Merlot in an 800-square-foot Santa Monica shithole that you're renting for $2,500 a month because your Jaws 3D residuals ran out in 1987.
And here's some more (and please note I offer no apologies to Good Old (?) Curmudgeon for my fishmongering name-calling, nor for my eighth-grade proclivities regarding insults to those who offend common sense):
Aptly named JACKASS CENTER: I don't care if I'm on the hook for tax-subsidizing Nelson's fatass, I will never -- on general principle -- set foot on that Godforsaken PeeWee's Playhouse property. Unless I'm wearing a sandwich board and protesting our $170K a month rent subsidy that fatass Gold's Gym (irony?) owner cannot make.
And the lardass Gondola Boy after whom the JACKASS CENTER is named: Why is everybody intent on giving Gondola Boy Mike Dowse a pass when he has done nothing to distance himself from this idiocy? Until he says differently, he is on the GTrain and must be considered a dumbass sixth-grade idiot who likes the Jetsons. Jackass!
Geigers, especially elder, he of the fond self-delusional God complex: Mr. Metcalf never referenced Curt THE SKI IS BEAUTIFUL BLUE Geiger, Descente, DNA or Captain Bob of Wayne Peterson's Squirrel Patrol in his commentary. Yet your unconscionable hubris allowed you to write "I," "me," "my," "my company," "my intentions," "talk to me," 600 times when you don't own the company. Thing is, THE SKI IS BEAUTIFUL BLUE is as well-liked as Little Matty Gondola Godfrey -- and I know what the phone poll told him; he's backed into a corner by all these idiots, especially Wayne Peterson, founder of the Squirrel Patrol, king of Patagonia vests for aging fat -quasi-queers, and Lord of the $100 million land deal for $7 million.
Don't you assclowns feel stupid and ashamed every time someone brings up Wayne and his Silly Gondola to Nowhere? Don't you feel used and dumb? Don't you know, after two years, that Wayne will never build anything anywhere? Don't you understand that Teeny Lying Little Matty Gondola Godfrey has expended every once of political capital he may have had on this nonsense, only to see it flushed down the toilet by common sense? Doesn't your collective underwears cringe at the very thought?
I suggest you choke on it.
As to Lilliputian Gondola Matty Godfrey, OTown's Biggest Liar himself: He had to run; he had nowhere to go. Idiot trust-fund babies named Eccles, Lindquist, Nebeker and Rich have him painted in: He's done, but he had no choice. He'll lose at the polls, and Envision Ogden can't help him much, seeing as how most members don't live within the city limits. Moreoever, speaking to Tiny Matty's goodness, one of my relatives spent several hours with Teeny Matty's father-in-law recently, and all Dr. Ed could say was how painfully honest and ethical Little Matty is; how truly just and wise and Godfearing this little gondola freak is in all facets of his silly little life. This speaks volumes: When you are that delusional, ignorning reality, and all you have about you are sycophants, you'll lie yourself into thinking just about anything.
And Ozboy: You were only funny when you were HeeHaw.
Oust Gondola Godfrey!
lighten up, Curmudgeon...not every post here is worthy of a treatise in response!
Most of us could tell those kind of stories...pre-approved, etc. So does that mean that Castro does it better?
Gosh, Jason.
I'm sorry you're so anal retentive. If you could just express your rage without steroids you'd feel lots better.
However, I'm with you, bud.
Get it out on the blog...don't bottle it up and end up strangling someone near and dear to you ala Benoit.
Danny, you claimed that...
Pennsylvania is more heavily populated than Bangladesh. Yet, one of Pennsylvania’s main industries is timber, and it always has been, for decades. You don’t see may trees in Bangladesh. They’ve burned them to make charcoal. But they do have a lot of government.
wrong my friend, next time you get all self-rightioso you may want to check the "facts" you might get mistaken for a gondolist around here.
Pop. density
Pennsylvania 274/sq mi.
Bangladesh 2706/sq mi.
Looks to me that Bangladesh is 10 times the population density of Pennsylvania...So what was your point again?
If you stick to facts you might not get such tired fingers with all that unfounded rage.
As for timber production, Pennsylvania leads the country in hardwood production.
Curm, you should have written Michael Moore. You may have made it into his movie.
Probably was mostly filmed by the time of your unfortunate accident. Good to here a similar story from a reliable local source. The movie is just plain sad that we as a country have slid so far from providing for our own.
only asking,
unfortunately Castro does do it better...see the movie before youor anyone else condemns it. Fox News actually like it and Chris Matthews. I'd say the wide range of pundits and folks who have seen it and liked it is testimonial to it's even handed condemnation of or healthcare fiasco. I have seen the movie and it is entertaining, sad and revealing.
Jason,
I have the same concerns about the gondola and the Junction debt and the RDA finaglings and a whole lot more...
That will not prevent me from enjoying this place. I'd say you are missing out. There are hundreds of good folks having a blast down there every day (I make it down there almost daily now) You may be in the minority with such a sour attitude over something so many are clearly enjoying.
Tec,
Who said I haven't seen it?
Too many assumptions about other people on here.
Curm and (the great) Bill C, No offense taken at all, nor from anyone else. I love all the comments.
And Tec, regarding Penn vs. Bangladesh, you appear to be right, and my original source is wrong, way wrong. (It does happen with me, if rarely.) Thanks for filling me in here. But I made ya look! Rage? Nah. More like a good time.
And I must now also apologize to Don Porter who printed Sharon's letter, if not word for word, still plenty hot enough, including names.
Now I need to go figure out how I went so wrong on Bangladesh . . .
But I think my gist was still valid.
Glad you saw the movie, OA
So what did you get from it. Do you think it is just another of Michael Moore's manipulative treatises or are you willing to accept that we have a seriously broken healthcare industry. I, for one may pursue marrying a Canadian or Brit or a even a French lady for the healthcare.
I'd like to hear a coherent condemnation or acceptance that we have a problem here. Doesn't seem to me there is a lot of middle ground on this particular issue.
Call it socialist, call it communist, but universal healthcare means you and me and the guy down the street all get taken care of...what is not to like.
People who bring their ill health on themselves by their choices...like indiscriminate sex...druggies, alcoholics, smokers, the morbidly obese who have the money to eat fast food, chips, beer, soda, etc....c'mon. Where's the limit. Or do you have one?
People with serious problems, children, when life deals an unexpected blow...need our help..but I don't think every person who has an irersponsible approach to their own well-being should be in our pockets.
Asking 4 short ans:
Thank you for providing me a perfect example of the right wing noise machine tactic of taking opposition arguments to extremes in order to avoid discussing them seriously. The choice is not the system we have now with 35 million or so wholly uninsured on the one hand or Castro's system on the other. There is for example Australia's system [single payer, government financed health care which nevertheless incorporates a good deal of free market mechanisms within as a way to maximize choice, encourage good performance and increase efficiency.] However much you would like to pretend the only choices are what we have on the one hand, and Cuba's on the other, and to convince others of that, it just plain is not so.
Sorry if this reply is too long for your attention span. Best I could do.
I know that a lot of people will not see the moviue out of disinterest and a lot won't see it because Michael Moore made it. Still millions will ignore it because it is a documentary and deals with information instead of fantasy.
I have never had nor ever will buy health insurance so I cannot relate any personal horror stories but my parent's can. I pay cash to see a doctor and take excellent care of my health. Too bad there is no responsibility for taking care of one's health in the U.S.
I agree with you on that OA.
That is why I have never signed on for insurance. Didn't see the logic in subsidizing some fatass onion ring addict getting a liposuction or a colostomy.
I forgot that Michael Moore is a fatass and he and his relatives from Canada were eating onion rings when they met.
He still makes a bangup and provocative movie.
He has lost a lot of weight since making it.
Weber Transportation Expo:
In the forlorn hope of reintroducing the important topic Rudi made this thread by leading with Dan S's excellent piece, let me point out that the SE today ran an editorial on transportation in the county. Link here.
From the editorial:
In a political career filled with plenty of memorable lines, Ronald Reagan's comparison of government to a baby is one of our favorites. The Gipper described it as "an alimentary canal with a big appetite at one end and no sense of responsibility at the other."
While often true, we feel the need to point out the times when government behaves not only with responsibility but with intelligence. This afternoon and evening, residents of Davis County could do themselves a favor by visiting Davis High School in Kaysville, where they will see their government at work. The first Davis County Transportation Expo runs from 2 p.m. to 9 p.m., and will be a one-stop shop for all your transportation and mass transit questions.
* * * *
There will be an array of large displays, information booths and other materials, along with representatives from the Utah Department of Transportation, Utah Transit Authority, Wasatch Front Regional Council, and staff or information from several cities: Clearfield, Clinton, Farmington, Kaysville, Layton, Syracuse and West Point.
* * * *
We urge our readers in north Davis County to take a few minutes and drop by Davis High for a look-see. You may even be able to influence how the transportation system is assembled in the coming years. At the very least, you'll know what's going on when it comes to transportation projects in your community.
Good news for Ogden:
Since, as we all know, it's the squeaky wheel that gets the most attention, sometimes I think ---yes, even here at WCF --- some of us [myself among them] occasional overlook good news. This week, the SE ran a story headlined:
Restoration of classic Wattis house a welcome addition to Ogden’s Eccles Avenue Historic District
About the restoration of an old historic home in Ogden, and struck me as just plain good news for the city all around. [And I do believe the Wattis family is one of those that did not move here recently in hopes of riding a gondola.] Link here.
Tec...now I understand why you can ride that flowrider every day! If you can afford to pay for any health problems out of pocket, then you can make use of the Junction whereas some others couldn't. So, we'll have to rely on your first person accounts.
Moore is a big fat slob. He does look like he may have shed about 12 pounds...would that be 6 Whoppers, supersized, that he didn't eat?
I haven't seen Sicko...so does he also tell of the wonderful advances in medicine? Does he talk about the research that is saving millions of lives? Does he talk about the babies' lives that are saved through prenatal, and neonatal care?
Or is this just a story about some who have needed care and didn't get it in a compassionate manner?
Like the woman who was left to die in her blood on the ER floor while the janitor mopped around her body? A horror story for sure, but hardly represetative of health care in this country.
JW,
I've been fortunate to not have required much health care because I have cared about what went down my gullet for the last 37 years. No meat, no overly processed foods, less wheat, more water , no soda, nicotine, coffee sparingly. It was simple decision a long time ago that I felt like living long. It was a conscious decision to not become physically impaired by the progressive degenerative effects of the all-american dietary habits. I knew it back then and the evidence is waddling through the aisles of walmart right now.
I'm taking a break from flowriding for a couple of days before I need some medical attention.
The movie is only an indictment of the system as it is set up not of any individuals working in the system or the level of technology available. Nations with universal healthcare have the same equipment and expertise as ours. As for paying for healthcare I am contemplating becoming a medical tourist to Thailand or India if I ever require invasive procedure or blow out a knee. A friend may get his ACL repaired in Thailand for a tenth of the cost here and get full recovery care plus beautiful apartment plus beautiful women plus fantastic food.
The thing many Americans refuse to accept is that we have now slipped below world standards in so many measures and we still think we are the best country in the world without question. What threshold of loss of rights, services, overburdening regulation, bloated federal bureaucracy, will Americans accept and still claim superiority.
Moore was on TeeVee the other night, I think it was Leno, he is huge! If he has lost weight you sure couldn't tell where. Four hundred pounds minimum! How healthy is that?
I agree that the medical system in the US is really screwed up. Mostly thanks to politicians and corporate greed. However, the industry as a whole does some pretty incredible things in saving lives and repariing damaged bodies.
Just like how buisiness gets screwed up and out of balance with the involvement of politicians and other idiot popularity contest winners, the medical system has also.
Scrushy, frined and mentor of the Health hustlers that keep talking about coming to Ogden, aren't the only big league crooks in the game. There are uncounted numbers of hustlers in the health industry that have huge multi million dollar salaries that come out of the health care dollars. Yet they serve no usefull service, and do absolutely nothing to cure any body of anything. Pure corrupt dead weight, just like Godfrey and his empty suits.
Thanks, Curm, for the note about the Davis Transportation Expo. I meant to mention that in my earlier posts but it slipped my mind. However, I did remember to attend the event. For me it was mostly a chance to ask the experts a bunch of detailed questions as I attempt to become more educated about these things.
But there was one thing that's been bugging me ever since I got back. Among all the information tables from various government entities (UDOT, UTA, WFRC) and contractors working for the government on various projects, there was also a table for the Northern Utah Transportation Alliance.
And just what is the Northern Utah Transportation Alliance? It's the new campaign to tell us all to vote for the proposed transportation sales tax on this November's ballot. The campaign is being run by Exoro, a private marketing firm, under the direction of the counties' Chambers of Commerce. As I mentioned above, the campaign is being funded primarily by companies that will profit directly from the proposed transportation projects.
It's illegal, of course, to use taxpayer funds to promote a campaign for or against a ballot measure. Yet here was a government-sponsored event at which a campaign advocacy group was given a table alongside all the government entities.
Were any other advocacy groups offered a chance to participate? I don't know, but I doubt it. Did the typical attendee even realize that this table was unlike all the others in that it represented a completely private interest? I doubt it.
At the Northern Utah Transportation Alliance table they were handing out flyers telling us why we should vote for the tax increase. They also had forms you could fill out to endorse their campaign, request a lawn sign, and even donate money.
Oh, and they have a logo, which consists of a highway underneath a mountain. No train tracks, no trains.
Hey just wondering, where did you get that illusion? From the AMA and Pharmaceutical manufacturer's Washington lobbyists. It may interest you to know that they make the lions share of their billions off treating symptoms related to America's joke dietary habits(marketing junk) and our ever increasing environmental decay(Corporate profits again) both prescription and OTC. Ever heard of acid reflux, chronic indegestion,minor aches and pain. They have you so buffaloed into thinking you can just take one of their little remedies and the problem disappears. The symptom may be suppressed but these medications do nothing for the actual cause of your problem. What do you think the fastest growing illnesses are in the country today? Asthma and Diabetes, and what dare you say could possibly explain the dramatic increases in these ? Dirty air and badly engineered processed foodstuffs, one we have at least some choice the other no choice, you gotta breathe. I could go on and on but thats enough for now, Curm want to talk transit and I'm all for that. And no, I haven't seen sicko yet, but I look forward to seeing it. I liked both his other films.
Tec, how could they open a Mexican eatery in a city with close to 30% hispanics, and not have corn tortillas?
The SE's front page story about Hizzonah, Mayor Godfrey's decision to run for a third term has some interesting passages. Hizzonah says people have been coming out of the walls, urging him to run again, and that the results of his recent phone pole played a role in his decision... but that he's refusing to release the results of the poll. Imagine that.
Also noted that Hizzonah outlined the issues on which he intends to run. He wants to get after crime, finish the River Project, etc. Way way way down in the list, according to the story, he mentions the Peterson Plan and the gondola [the word appears one time] as things about which he is generally supportive and which he does not want to rule out because... well, because really he doesn't want to rule out anything that might have some potential. As usual, nowhere does he so much as mention the sale of the Mt. Ogden parklands to his crony for a housing development which is part of the Peterson plan. Imagine that.
Doesn't look like Hizzonah thinks the gondola and sale of the Mt. Ogden parklands are winning issues for him.
Earlier we discussed briefly the issue that the Salomon Center is closed Sundays.
This is perpetrated on us by the owner of Gold's Gym who also owns the flowrider and iRock.
Now this place was to replace a mall. It is being billed in some circulars as a downtown mall.
The success of this facility depends on it being run like a business and serves all the community.
The great American economic consumer engine kicked into high gear in the 1960's with the build out of ...shopping malls and 7 day a week commerce.
I had a couple of mall located retail establishments in the 80's and it was written in to the lease that we maintain uniform hours or we could be subject to penalties and lawsuit along with cancellation of the lease. There was no option for closing on Sundays.
The stupidity of this kind of momo-inspired restriction on the rest of the non-momo populace is absurd and Utah at it's lowest.
To deny the cash register over 10% of the potential revenue generating business hours is a recipe for disaster.
Get some real businessmen in there instead of these "wrap my business in the flag of my religion" thought police".
I dare say that this move alone will spell it's impending doom. Collapsing under the weight of religious fervor.
Curm-
The Wattis family did not necessarily move back to Ogden. However, they have chosen to repurchase their old ancestral family home in Ogden and restore it to its former glory. Of course, EO Wattis, the original owner of the amazing home on Eccles Ave, was at one time the Prez of Utah Construction Co. (an enormously huge company w/ its origins in Ogden). The family actually came upon the home and noticed it for sale when they were attending a symposium (Utah Construction Co. Symposium) at Weber State (another fine event held annually in our community). The restoration of this home is definitely noteworthy, however, and what I find more interesting is the attention these old neighborhoods and old homes in Ogden are receiving by everyday folks and yuppies (as was highlighted in the recent New York Times article). The continued success of Ogden will not only hinge on the success of downtown, but I argue just as importantly the continued revitalization of these older neighborhoods. Ogden has fantastic old homes and neighborhoods. They are being discovered. I hope it continues, these neighborhoods are being stablized and are finally transitioning in the right direction. This home on Eccles is just one of many recently restored homes in the area. Take a drive around Eccles Avenue (look at the 2500 blocks of Brinker, Van Buren, Eccles, and Jackson for instance). Great stuff going on in Ogden.
Here's a link to the article about Godfrey's announcement.
Curm's observations are astute, as usual. I don't know who Godfrey thinks he's fooling when he merely says he isn't going to dismiss the Peterson project. The fact is that he's made it his number-one priority for the last several years, to the point that it's getting in the way of a lot of good things that could be happening. (For instance, it has delayed the streetcar for over two years now; it delayed the Mt. Ogden Community Plan until Smart Growth finally organized a petition; and it turned the Mixed Use zoning ordinance into something almost entirely different than what was intended in Ogden's General Plan.)
One thing Curm didn't mention is that Schwebke chose a rather misleading adverb in one spot. He said that work has already started on the River Project's first phase. The more accurate adverb would have been finally. The River Project was approved something like five years ago. For most of that time, the property owners have sat in limbo. Now they're finally able to sell, at least to speculators. The ground has been cleared for Phase 1, which is something like 10 acres out of 60 total. Construction on Phase 1 has barely begun, and I don't think anyone has announced a date for when Phase 1 will be complete.
This example is indicative of one of Godfrey's major weaknesses: He bites off more than he can chew. He promises that big things will happen almost instantaneously, and then it takes him many years to even begin to follow through. The Junction Development covers 20 acres and after 6 years it's about half finished. The River Project area covers 60 acres and I ain't guessing how much longer it'll take. His promised gondola will probably never happen at all, much to the apparent dismay of Mr. Geiger's Japanese bosses.
In fact, when he ran four years ago, wasn't Godfrey's slogan that he wanted to finish what he had started? This time around his slogan should be "Vote for the guy who starts more than he can finish!"
LBB
There are great things happening in these neighborhoods. When I moved to Ogden a couple of years ago there was a home on Eccles facing the park for sale for the miniscule price of 225,000. I wish I had purchased it but I could not afford the extensive upgrading necessary and restoration of the woodwork. At the time I was astonished that a home of such value and history could sit on the market for more than a few minutes. It sat for months. I still am amazed at the fantastic restoration opportunities in the central residential district. In any other city in any other decade of my life these homes would have been snatched up by real renovators waiting in line for the opportunity. Usually these renovators are local because to attend to the extensive details preclude hobby style investing like Spain and crew. This is another example of Utah asleep at the wheel and blind to the value of it's own fantastic heritage. I have to wonder why guys like the Geigers, Allens and even the mayor do not get involved in this very healthy activity. It's a civic duty to prevent the deterioration of your community. It seems to me that the prominent people of Ogden over the last couple of decades share as much the blame for the disintegration of our inner city that could have been prevented by some teamwork buying up these vacant properties and finding worthy buyers or occupants. I visited San Francisco in 1975 and my friend's older brother was already involved in the renaissance there and it was tough back then to find a worthy victorian fixer for under a million that would not have a dozen eager buyers. It seems to me that Ogden has simply suffered form poor marketing.
If I were marketing Ogden now I would be making the point that the real estate is affordable for the young and that the city offers incentives for home buyers. These conditions still exist and yet many people cannot do the math. Meanwhile Spain and co continue to buy up much of Ogden's single family real estate and convert it to rental property. Many of their properties lack yard care and need critical upgrades. Just drive around and find the homes with a Provident sign on them. Just yesterday I saw 3 that had shabby lawns and showed no sign of even the most rudimentary upgrade. This is slumlording 101.
So much about the Junction like the wi-fi deal, lack of certain finish details, lack of a membership arrangement for flowriders, restrictive hours, etc. remind me of typically underfunded inexperienced small business operators. The statistics are well known in this category.
I say this as a way to kick-start these fools into the real world and start running that place like the business it is.
Re: closing the Junction on Sundays-
Mr. Ogdenlover and I were already in SLC last Sunday afternoon, so we journeyed to Draper to check out the new IKEA store. It was packed, the parking lot was full, and they were doing a bang-up business. In Draper!
I often save my shopping for Sunday afternoons when the stores are not terribly crowded (although not deserted by any means). It would be a great time for those who want to partake of the Junction's attractions to do so without too much of a wait for the Flowrider, for example, to say nothing of the family considering a drive from Idaho to Ogden with their kids. Why drive just to turn around and go home Saturday evening? Keeping the Junction open for two days might bring overnight hotel stays - someone might even consider a Junction-hotel package deal.
Lagoon is open from 11AM to 10PM on Sundays. If it were a money-loser, I doubt they'd do that.
Tec,
Good points about restoration of older neighborhoods, but you're being unfair to the Allens. They bought and restored the building where Bernie's law office is now located, and from what I've heard (haven't been in it myself), they did a magnificent job. And Descente rents office space in this building. So they may not have done anything for Ogden's older homes, but they've made a major contribution to the restoration of downtown.
Continuing the discussion of Ogden's older homes...
I live in (and own) a small house that's moderately old (72 years) and in pretty good shape. I wouldn't have been up to a major restoration project, but at least I try to take care of what I have. Meanwhile, the houses on both sides of mine have seen major restoration work during the last 10 years. But the people who restored these houses then sold them, and now both are being used as rentals and are visibly deteriorating. It's a shame to see such major investments squandered so quickly.
There are some really good things happening in Ogden with restoration of older houses. At the same time, absentee landlords are buying up houses that were once owner-occupied and are converting them into rentals. Overall I couldn't say whether our neighborhoods are getting better or worse.
Great points ogdenlover, thanks for the backup. I was just researching Lagoon's hours for comparison.
Thanks Dan, for the addenda,
I have been into the Descente building and it is beautiful. Sorry, Bernie and Ed.
Ogden and Utah have fallen behind in recent years, in the recent surge in residential real estate. A year or two ago, Utah was literally the cheapest home market in the nation with prices half the national average, or less.
Many of the rentals are speculators hoping for a capital gain. In the past year prices have soared. Once this increase levels off the speculators may sell and leave allowing the homes to return to families.
This is all occurring naturally. The interest in Ogden residential real estate, and commercial real estate, is in large measure due to the low prices attracting attention, as Curt Geiger and other who've moved here have said.
Unfortunately some will attribute these recent price increases in real estate to the current administration. This is incorrect. It's only the sort of thing that happens when real estate falls to its "clearance" level.
The Geigers can talk all they want about Godfrey, but the truth, as they and others have said, is that prices here were so low, and the natural environment so good, it made it an easy choice.
The mayor has only ridden the wave. This happens all the time with politicians. They get credit for things they had little to do with.
I doubt anyone here is suprised Elder Godfrey is seeking a third term.
Although H.L. Mencken hated Roosevelt, he argued that FDR should be elected to a third term because "he should be made to bury his own dead horse." Grounds for Godfrey's gallop into 4 more years?
In other ancient history, when Eisenhower announced he was running again in 1956, some wag (maybe Stevenson himself?) suggested that it figured, since Ike could never afford to retire to his Gettysburg farm "while [Utah's Ezra Taft] Benson is Secretary of Agriculture."
Likewise with Godfrey. He hasn't presided over any job creation in Ogden that could pay him what the mayoralty does.
Absolutely to the point, Danny.
When I moved here along with a few I have met who moved during the same era, there was no talk of the gondola or Malans basin.
I moved here for exactly the conditions you describe. I find it insulting that the mayor or Geigers would take the statistics I helped boost and twist them to their own interpretation and take credit. It was a solid no-brainer in mid '05 that the Ogden market was beckoning. No incentive beyond the home values alone was necessary. That Salomon required 8 million or more as incentive reveals that they did not do their own math and that the mayor did not help them with it and market Ogden on clearly advantageous existing conditions. No one twisted my arm to move here. Snowbasin was already here, Ogden was already beautiful and Mt Ogden golf course was not in the hitman's radar.
Seems the family and FOM's want Godfrey to run again. Interesting but not surprising at all that the little man won't release his poll figures. Let's see....now what would be a fetching number of "do it"'s out of 300?
Who paid for his poll?
We better start putting the info we have on this little crooked man and his crooked admin in the SL papers and get the word out. Not that many people (sorry Rudi) who will be voting, read this blog. so, we're educating each other. We need to get what we KNOW out to the masses.
Observer:
Getting the word out is the job of the candidates who will contest the election with him, O. If they can't do that effectively, Hizzonah will continue stiffing the press, the public and the Council with his pathological [and needless] commitment to secrecy for another four years, and he will continue to obstruct any and all projects, however beneficial, that might conceivably in any way impede his gondola obsession, and I suspect that we will be reading for the next four years yet more examples of Godfrey administration cronyism and favoritism to FOMs.
It's up to the candidates running against him now. We can help, but they have to do the heavy lifting on this and they have to do it well.
Attention, OTown residents: Prepare for the election mobilization of the famed Wayne Peterson Squirrel Patrol in YOUR neighborhood. Nuts! Get 'em!
Og:
Thanks for the link to Moulton's story. There's a very interesting passage in Ms. Moulton's story that should probably have been headlined GODFREY NO LONGER CERTAIN GONDOLA PLAN MAKES SENSE:
Here's a longish passage from the story:
Godfrey said his campaign will focus on four main issues:
* Finish redeveloping downtown.
* Keep reducing crime.
* Continue revitalizing neighborhoods, particularly those in the east-central part of the city.
* Lower property taxes even more.
Noticeably absent from his top issues are controversial proposals to sell much of the city's open space on the east bench to a private developer and to build a gondola from downtown to Weber State University.
The developer, Chris Peterson, would use revenue from the development of homes around a redesigned Mount Ogden Golf Course to build a mountain gondola and a resort in Malans Basin above the city. Peterson has not yet made a formal proposal, but Godfrey has advocated the gondola and land sale.
On Wednesday, the mayor said seeing the gondola project through is not a reason he wants another four years.
"If a project makes sense, it will happen no matter who is in office," he said. "That's one project out of several that we think have tremendous potential for the community. We'll keep looking at it and see if it makes sense."
"We'll keep looking at it and see if it makes sense." Seems pretty clear from that, that Hizzonah [now a candidate] seems to consider the matter in doubt and in need of further study. My my my how running for office backing an unpopular idea can change a guy.
Notice also "the mayor said seeing the gondola project through is not a reason he wants another four years." Uh huh. Right. We've come a long way from the mayor's by-invitation-only dog and pony shows trying to sell the sale of Ogden's biggest part to build his gondola, haven't we? And if the plan is not a priority, perhaps he can explain why the Ogden promotional video he commissioned presents the gondola as an unquestioned element of Ogden's future.
Wow, Curt Geiger must be furious. I mean, he's explained to the entire city in his recent letter that he convinced his company's owners to move their American HQ here because Matt Godfrey assured him Ogden would build the gondola. And now this morning poor Curt has to read in the SL Trib that the Mayor is only willing to keep looking at it to see if it makes sense? Wow.
Godfrey's polling must have revealed that the sale of the Mt. Ogden Parklands and his gondola obsessions are big losers as campaign issues for him to back off this far this fast.
By the way, if there is anyone out there any who believes the Mayor when he says that selling the park to his crony for a housing development and ramming the gondola through to completion are not major reasons he's running again, I want to let you know that I've just acquired exclusive ownership of this bridge in Brooklyn that I can let you have for a very reasonable price [cash only, small unmarked bills please.]
Curm,
Get real! No wonder you democrats do such a lousy job. Can't mobilize the troops!
Of course the candidates have to artculate the issues...but are you naive enough to think that each candidate does it all on his or her own?
WE who know how dastardly this twerp is have a duty to tell it. We tell it to each other often enough. Oh, I forget...you only surmise that Godfrey may be bad, if you have your information correctly and then you don't know if you can really trust the source. Never jump to a conclusion you can't waffle on.
Well, ask Dorothy Littrell about the financial corruption in this administration. SHE knows because she's put her money and expertise and efforts into finding out.
If you want Godfrey and his pony show for another 4 years...sit back and keep saying, 'ain't my job, man".
I get the gov't I deserve, right? That your motto?
The Amnesty bill failed today!!!
The mayor's race needs to be a referendum on selling the golf course, and other city bench property that was supposed to be kept in trust, on the cheap to Chris Peterson.
The mayor will try to minimize this. The other candidates need to politely remind the voters that this is something Godfrey has been adamant about, right up until now that he is seeking reelection.
As far as the amnesty bill, it is clear the public was heard on this, whatever one's position on it was, and even though Bush couldn't care less about public opinion enough senators did. Making our voices heard DOES work! We need them to be heard locally. It has made a huge difference.
How did Hatch and Bennett vote? Did either of them care about their voter's opinions?
In accord with the mayor's reelection strategy, the gondola article has now been bumped down to fourth place on the city's web site.
I didn't keep track of exact dates, but I know this article went up in April, 2006, and held the top spot for most of the rest of that year. It's been gradually sinking for the last few months.
why are you allowed to post under the 'cowardly anonymous'??
I don't know why you feel it necessary to invoke my name while chortling over the mayor! But if it makes you feel important, go ahead.
We're 93 MILLION bucks in debt...and we don't have the bill on the Junction. Meanwhile your hero keeps giving away city owned land and properties to his cronies. One of whom (so far) has been indicted in an 11 MILLION dollar ins. scam!
Good FOM's, eh?
The Geigers' are sycophants. I've rec'd some calls telling me how much the caller appreciated my letter about the three G's! I suppose if we use bobby's fractions and extrapolated those YEA calls, we'd see that Godfrey doesn't have as much support as he thinks.
Observer:
You wrote: If you want Godfrey and his pony show for another 4 years...sit back and keep saying, 'ain't my job, man".
Been a while since you got your reading glasses prescription updated, has it?
Reread what I posted. Nowhere did I say "sit back and keep saying 'it ain't my job, man." Or anything remotely like it. [You did notice my saying "we can help" didn't you?]
You also wrote: "Of course the candidates have to articulate the issues...but are you naive enough to think that each candidate does it all on his or her own?"
No where did I suggest, even remotely, that candidates run on their own, without campaign staff, without volunteer help, without people working to help put them in office. Nowhere. Having worked as staff and/or walk-in volunteer on campaigns for many years [including the it-don't-get-lower-down-than-this sign-wagger at busy intersections on election day], I know better than to have ever suggested anything like that.
May be time for an eye exam, OB.
Finally, you wrote: I get the gov't I deserve, right? That your motto?
Yes, pretty much is. If Hizzonah gets re-elected by the voters for a third term, we will [Ogden and its residents] deserve what we get, because without the voters it could not and would not have happened.
Hope to see you on the campaign trail, OB. You can show me your new specs....
During the late '90s and early 2000s Repubs complained constantly about the tyranny of the filibuster - that the evil Dems wouldn't let items come to a vote in the Senate. Some even proclaimed that Senate rules should be changed to get rid of the filibuster. Well now the shoe is on the other foot and Repubs in the Senate have no problem threatening the filibuster and voting to allow it in order to keep items from coming to a vote that they know will pass -- today's immigration bill is another example. Not necessarily a supporter of the bill itself, but why not let the Senate vote on the bill?
Dan:
Nice catch on the Incredible Shrinking Gondola Commitment on the city webpage!
GOP H:
IN the last two Congresses [Republican majorities], Senate Democrats filibustered 4 times to block bills. Four. The Republican Senators whined and moaned and warned that the voters would punish such irresponsible obstructionism. Four times in four years.
In the first six months of this Congress [Democratic majority], the Republicans in the Senate have filibustered 15 times. Fifteen.
Hypocrisy is rapidly becoming a synonym for Republican.
The vote to advance Bush's amnesty bill didn't need a filibuster. It didn't even get a majority.
It was mostly Republicans who voted to kill it. Strangely, had they controlled the Senate, I think it would have passed.
Score another win for divided government. Founding Fathers, we thank you.
Godfrey will win in a LANDSLIDE!
Someone too unimaginative to come up with an alias says:
I can imagine that Godfrey's announcement that he's running for a third term ahs everyone here just about crazy. Why, because the guy's gonna win. Flat out win./ His vision, although some may scratch their heads over his methods, has simply bettered Ogden. Things are on the move. Downtown is growing, the economy is growing, jobs, etc. are on the rise, and companies are relocating here in droves.
Given the fairly significant losses suffered by (if I may) "The Godfrey Camp" in the last municipal election cycle (Nov 2005), and given the length of time between now and the election, and given a deep dissatisfaction in many parts of the electorate with Mayor Godfrey's "vision" (as Curm would say, 'politely so called'), I think your prediction of election results is just a bit premature.
I do think any incumbent is a strong candidate. Rep. William Jefferson (D-LA) won re-election even after Federal agents found almost $1 million cash in his freezer.
No sensible person would discount Mayor Godfrey's candidacy.
The old battles between Geigers and Beech are "needles stuck in grooves." Who cares? Each is wrapped in his or her own OPINION. End of story.
You may see this as a Battle Between Good and Evil or a Manichean duality or black-and-white, but I don't think that most of the electorate sees things in such simple terms.
For my part, I think Mayor Godfrey is a man who has many fine qualities as a human being. We've chatted a few times; I like him a lot as a person. As a Mayor, he's an unmitigated disaster. He can come over for dinner at my house, but I ain't voting for him, even if he runs against a Yellow Dog. (I'll let Curm explain the obscure cultural reference.)
The gondola? Why the hell not? Let's get on with the growth of our city.
You make a (demonstrably false) connection between the gondola and economic development.
Let me paraphrase your last paragraph: "Backdoor deals and cronyism? Selling off our precious birthright for pennies on the dollar? Why the hell not? Prosperity is just around the corner."
I would argue (and I'd be glad to marshal evidence, although it has been presented here recently by many others) that economic development will occur in Ogden whether or not Matthew Godfrey is Mayor, and most certainly whether or not we have a flatland gondola–mountainside gondola paid for (only partially) by irreplaceable open space.
You can't argue that Mayor Godfrey is responsible for the economic development in Ogden. Post hoc ergo propter hoc, and all that jazz.
Bennett voted for Bush's amnesty bill.
Hatch voted against Bush's amnesty bill.
Remember it.
Godfreyites: Rather than give rah rah, please offer reasoned arguments for voting for Godfrey. Try to persuade others. Remember, this is an election, not a hockey match.
If you can't give reasoned arguments for Godfrey, and then support them, question your decision.
Geig....eerrrrr, I mean Anonymous:
Godfrey has you and I leveraged to the hilt for his “visions”.
He regularly lies to, demeans, and dismisses his constituents. And, yes, even if you think he’s a completely diluted clown, if you live in Ogden, you are his constituent. He just doesn’t see it that way. He conducts backroom, underhanded deals in favor of his friends at the expense of the taxpayer.
Do his “methods” have me scratching my head? No, they have me beating it against the f***ing wall.
And lest you be chastised by Curm for underestimating the opposition, I’d refrain from predicting a “flat-out win”. You might be surprised how many voters (and campaigners) the little tyrant has emboldened to act against his re-election. His “methods”, I think, have awoke a sleeping giant. It’s just too bad myopics like you and the Mayor are too insulated by blissful ignorance and sychophants to see it.
“Gondola, why not?” Another rock-solid, fact-based, cogent argument from the Chorus.
I can imagine that Godfrey's announcement that he's running for a third term ahs everyone here just about crazy. Why, because the guy's gonna win. Flat out win./ His vision, although some may scratch their heads over his methods, has simply bettered Ogden. Things are on the move. Downtown is growing, the economy is growing, jobs, etc. are on the rise, and companies are relocating here in droves.
The old battles between Geigers and Beech are "needles stuck in grooves." Who cares? Each is wrapped in his or her own OPINION. End of story.
The gondola? Why the hell not? Let's get on with the growth of our city.
(anonymous post re-posted)
Ugly B:
Chastise Godfreyistas for predicting runaway landslide wins before even the period for filing has closed? Nope. Not from me. I will be delighted to have them go into this race overconfident. If you and I had a buck for every candidate whose ultimate defeat could be traced to his going into his last race over confident, we'd probably be discussing this now at our beach homes in Maui with comely lasses [or lads depending on your gender and preferences] fetching us cooling libations in tall frosty glasses with those little paper umbrellas sticking out of them.
I'll be delighted to see the Godfreyistas going in predicting a landslide.
Why the Hell not:
Your just as dumb as the rest of them.....no balls to say anything until the PeeWee Herminator Matt says something first. Your just like the rest of the... Can't Hack it, Panty Waste who wears their momma's bra men!
You must get your jollies off of trying to make it sound like you are a jovial man but yet, you don't even understand how politics work! Honestly, who makes a name with a phrase? (why the hell not?) You have no seminal tactics whatsoever. You're just as sightless as the rest of the people that are far from understanding politics.
And if the gondola goes in...the city will be paying for my target practices!
Oh and about your name....
I least mine has character
Ahem, WTF:
Your blogmeister made up the phrase name you're complaining about -- as you'll note in the comment footer.
Since the banning of the "anonymous" handle here at WCF, your blogmeister has occasionally re-posted lame gondolist comments originally posted under the "anonymous" ID, if only to give our regular readers a taste of "the argument" from the "pro Godfrey" side of the aisle.
We don't know why Godfreyites insist on ignoring our clearly-stated posting policy; but they repeatedly do.
Occasionally though, we will repost these comments, and assign a phrase name that is intended to fairly describe the message contained in the individual comment.
Thank you very much.
(Rudi has now left the room)
Has any on notice how Hansen signs are going up everywhere. It looks like godfrey just may have a run for his money. Even though he thinks he can by it. by the way how of you help godfrey in his campaign when you bought those wrist bands for the opening junk-shun.
WHAT!!!
You mean that little pink or green wrist band I paid $40 for went to Godfrey's campaign account. Holy S word batman!
I want my money back. It's bad enough knowing that I paid for all the equipt. in the junkhouse but now I just paid godfrey to stay in office? That little man needs to grow up (in more ways than one) and stop raping me of my $12/hr job that's taken me 22 years to get to that pay! Little man syndrom is goin down, down, down!!
Hansen, count me in. I'll do anything (just about) to help you. Signs, walking, calling, beating anyone to a bloody pulpit. And yes I will change my attitude to add to your positive campaign that you have already started, I hope you win and I'll bring my friends too!
And for you rudi!!!
.....sorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrryyyyyy!!
Rudi sez:
We don't know why Godfreyites insist on ignoring our clearly-stated posting policy; but they repeatedly do.
Uhm, because they aren't paying attention to anything that's going on around them?
Is that it? What do I win?
Rudi
You and most of the posters on here do not follow your rules. So lead by example.
It could simply because these people have no internet manners.
Most people familiar with the net at least scan terms of service/posting policies before they post.
Here in Emerald City though, we find a batch of "internet thugs," who couldn't care less about internet ettiquette.
These are they same botched gondolists dopes who skulk around city council meetings, and aggressivelyt accost City Council Members like Councilwoman Jeske.
Come on, "come on."
We challenge your dumb ass to set forth one single case wherin we have't followed our own "posting policy" rules.
Go for it.
Our rules provide that we DO NOT GENERALLY DISCUSS posting policy issues here, BTW.
We're thus giving you a "special dispensation" for the next 45 minutes.
If you have something to offer on this subject other than gibberish...
the clock is now running.
Moroni
I'm with you and that Mencken fellow when it comes to the upcoming mayor's race.
There certainly would be a poetic justice sort of thing for Godfrey to win again and have to preside over the inevitable crash that is going to happen with a number of his "Legacy" projects.
Neil Hansen is a nice guy, an honest politician and he probably would make a good mayor. But I gotta wonder why the hell he would want to do that at this time in this city!
Who ever wins the mayor's chair is going to be facing an enormous business enterprise built, and half built, on shifting sands, poor planning, bad deals, and stupid economic projections. A regular house of cards if there ever was one. Who ever is in the left seat when the plane hits the cliff is going to take the blame for the crash!
Godfrey will be sitting off in some $60 grand a year bone that Boyer throws him, and will be pointing the finger big time at the new mayor for screwing up his great creation. If the new mayor pulls off a miricle and makes the thing work, then Godfrey will still sit back and claim paternity on the deal.
So it would only be fair for Godfrey to actually have to preside over the collapse of his hare brained schemes, or take the credit in the unlikely chance any of it succeeds.
Of course another 4 years of his self serving, cronyistic, dishonest, arrogant and incompent stewardship could just put Ogden under for good.
Like Capone brought prosperity to his cronies in the Mob, and a pile of crooked politicians, Godfrey has done the same for his own Mob. Doesn't mean we should keep either one around for four more years.
The bottom line is that a vote for Godfrey would be a vote against openess and honesty in local government.
Dan S.
I looked at the city's site within the last couple of weeks the link to "Ogden's Gondola Resort" was still at the very top so it would appear that it was given an instant drop to present stand reinforcing even more the potential that Godfrey is soft pedaling it now. My honest opinion is that he is distancing himself from it both for reelection strategy and for the very real possibility that Peterson has cut 'n run and this slow easing away is the only viable strategy to save face. Of course, he could save face instantly by putting the decision squarely onto an unbiased transit study and backing the findings of transit professionals.
what Rudidid you delete my post cause you didn't like my answer?
Captain Geiger of the famed Wayne Peterson Squirrel Patrol is "engaging" in Internet subterfuge; beware, posters! It's easy to spot the Squirrel Patrol: Words like "vision," "visionary," common misspellings of words like "liable" versus "libel." Mangled syntax. Nonsensical constructions. THE SKI IS BEAUTIFUL BLUE ... Ooops, that was Daddy! Fact is, "Come On Geiger, Oh, I swear Lil' Geiger," I have been deleted numerous times for violating policy. I curse the blogmeister for doing so, but he's apparently my saving grace, as you hooligans would likely "engage" Rupert the Producer's "lawyers" to sue me for "liable." Just a quick observation, in re: Teeny Matty Gondola Godfrey's campaign: I spent an hour talking to a Bud guy at a local watering hole, which's presence I am wont to frequent. He spoke highly of Teeny Matty, saying the familiar refrain, "At least he's doing something." Sadly, for Lying Little Matty, he doesn't live in Ogden. Much like another 100 gondola freaks I know.
THE SKI IS BEAUTIFUL BLUE.
Jason, whatever you are drinking, send some over to Cowboy Curtis and Bobby the hobby horse, so they can think up some creative ID's like you.
Funny sh*t
Squirrel Patrol Alert! Attention Squirrel Patrol: Your lardass hero and Meeny-miney, Teeny-tiny Gondola Godfrey European lover, Wayne Peterson, has no juice with the Utah State Legislature: My pal, who owns an HVAC outfit, was at a contractors' meeting in the capitol when Wayne strode in and demanded to see Senate President John Valentine (an old homie of mine from my ASUU days when we lobbied legislators). The attendant told Wayne in no uncertain terms that he would not be shown to the meeting, at which time Wayne uttered: "Does the senator know who my father-in-law is?" Nice, Wayne. Maybe next time you should change your fatass out of your Patagonia vest and into a tie. Kind of like Teeny Gondola Matty: he routinely expects to be comped at Historic 25th Street joints, and leaves $2 tips.
Jason Teetotaler/Drunk/Loadie/Shottaker:
Your handles alone are making me bust a gut. Thanks for the laughs.
Next thing ya know, the new Syracuse High will be adopting Squirrel as their mascot.
Another thing about Eiency-weincy, Little Matty, Superduper Gondola Godfrey and his Geigerian Squirrel Patrol: He and they are blatant liars. I dug up my own special copy of the Squirrel Patrol's initial four-color brochure, and it reads: "This project is dependent on the sale of existing Mt. Ogden golf course and WSU land." Next thing you know, Teeny Matty is at WSU calling their study a "farce" and then he's backpeddaling his way into this goddamnable election biz, pissing off THE SKI IS BEAUTIFUL BLUE all the while. THE SKI IS BEAUTIFUL BLUE.
And don't forget that he Ogden City website Gondola Q$A still says the gondola will connect to Snowbasin (with Forest Service approval, of course).
What's really silly is that the dates on items surrounding the Gondola are all 2007 while the 4th item (Gondola) is 2006.
Just a couple of short thoughts. Do you think Godfreys' lobbyist got Sen. Stevens,Alaska, to do the dirty deed? Bridge to nowhere, Gondola to nowhere, it would sort of give him some cover.
Seriously folks, this $247,000 UTA study money should fall under the fiduciary responsibility of the council to determine how,when and on what type of study it would be spent. Sadly for little matty pinoccio gondola godfrey, even though he is responsible for it's appearence,by law, he has no authority to spend it without council approval. It becomes a budget item, no bones about it, thats Council business.
Tippler, welcome home.
"WTF writes, "at least mine has character," refering to his blog name vs. the "why the hell not" blog name. Preceeding this profound revelation, "wtf" makes several foolish insinuations all based on--nothing but a blog name. Interesting. Why would somebody go this upside down over a minor posting on a blogsite? This guy probably thought that the Larry King/Paris Hilton interview had substance.
"WTF's" true character, or lack of it, is quite obvious.
And then there's Jason W, who constantly belittles Mayor Godfrey over size and or height. Interesting that Jason W is of smallish stature himself.
Another case of the pot calling the kettle black.
Fortunately, most posters on the WCForum are in better control of themselves and make for some pretty good, thought provoking reading. A microcosim of life itself.
Haven't had a chance to read all the comments but I sure hope someone noticed that the city is using the SAME company that did the gondola study for the mayor to also do a study on our sewer and water system.
City claims they invited 33 companies to bid but this was the only company willing to put in an offer.
I find that awfully hard to believe and I find the use of this company to be more than a coincidence.
Now I know how the city plans on paying for the gondola study and I can would bet that I know what they will say about our sewer system and water system.
That the sewer system needs a total upgrading from Mt. Ogden Park all the way to the treatment plant and that we need to tear down our existing water tanks and move them higher up the mountain.
I can't believe that this company was even considered by the council.
Score one more hood wink for the mayor.
For lack of any other new thoughts,
I have to again express my extreme dismay at the obviously Mormon-influenced decision to close the Junction on Sundays. I thought this thing was to appeal to tourists. I may be wrong, but aren't some of those "millions on their way Jackson Hole and Yellowstone" driving by on Sundays. Do they think that the only interested tourists are Mormon tourists who might understand. Are they trying to send a message. A sort of religio/civic agenda. A poster yesterday noted the quite obvious situation of tourists that might stay downtown overnight Saturday IF it was open Sunday. Imagine, they would spend for a hotel room a couple of more meals and spend some cold cash at the Junction...IF IT WAS FRIGGIN' OPEN.
Can the city council affect some change on this policy? Just how do we let these fools know that it needs to be open? I've written the mayor and Mike Dowse. I won't bother writing to Gold's and FatCats owners as they are quite obviously comfortable with their religious agenda. People recreate on weekends and work during the week. I believe this has been the situation since the mid 60's when blue laws and such were abolished or ignored in the modern world. It's kind of in the spirit of the separation of church and state thing. Can they be so shallow and isolated to not understand that some people who recreate weekends drive to their destination on Saturday, rest overnight and play on Sunday before returning home. I guess this crew has never had enough of a family life to understand. Family values??? One has to wonder. Typical contradiction of the moral right republican.
Phew...bedtime.
Ozboy,
The whole idea of Neil Hansen running this year is, just as you say, that he is honest, and I might add smart. He is just what the city needs to clean up the mess that godfrey has gotton us into. {($95,000,000.00) Debt. Advertising for fat cat and gold gym with taxpayer money. and the list goes on and on.}
The Mayor said he would like one more term to finish what he started. Like anything that he started is really going to get finished. Maybe George Washington should still be the president of the United State because there is still more to accomplish in Washington D.C. when he was the president. how dare we have another president.
The mayor promised that he would bring high paying jobs to the high tech. center. well it is 4 years later where are all those high paying jobs mayor? Can you spell failure?
Hansen said he will hold the mayor accountable for what he has done and I think that everyone here on this blog knows just what godfrey has done, both sides, that is smart growth and the geigers, or lift ogden. It is time to change out the mayors office with some one that really knows how government works and that is Neil Hansen. I believe that is why Hansen wants the job and we should support him in this because he is all about the people and for the people and not to the people or what is in this for me, or fat cats or golds gym, or the ski companies that are taking our hard earned tax dollars for this Corporate Welfare. So how many of you will give him a call and stand up for something as he is? Be apart of the revolution and then we can get things on the right track and have some real progress in O town.
WANTED: We would greatly appreciate any help we can get. We would like to begin compiling a record or the thousands of lies, falsehoods and gereral dishonest behavior of lying little matty's time in public disservice. As with alcoholics, junkies, child molesters, regular old sex addicts and any other behavioral maladies that can be capitalized on with the development and marketing of a 12 step program, pre step a-1, is making the perpetrator recognize the fact, he has a problem. In a meeting clandestinely arranged by those close to the little lying SOB,(same folks that he say's persuaded this election bid) in the bowels of the chamber auditorium(scene of some of his most horrible offenses)they cooked up this plan for little pinnoccio's salvation. By getting him to run one more time they're hoping the opposition will compile and comfront him with a complete chronologic list of his many transgressions. This will go along way in accomplishing two major objectives. He will be tied to his desk and forced to watch a slide presentation of the list until he cracks, and admits he has a problem. the second objective is the fact that the list will aid lying little matty complete his inventory step, which he must do in full,later in the program, tall order.
Once he's admitted his guilt, he will be enrolled and shipped off to the " JIMMY SWAGGERT I can recover from anything, 12 step program and acting camp" located in a seedy back alley, in an un-named large metropolitan area. This will be financed in part by ENVISION OGDEN with the proceeds from the SNEAK PEEK event.
Bill,
So is Envision Ogden a reelection org.?
If so, I'm glad I did not spring for the sneak peek.
Tec,
Agree strongly with you about the inherent cluelessness in closing Salomon-Fat Cats on Sundays. Trying to curry Mormon approval is misguided. They're not going to come downtown because 1) They're too busy with meetings to patronize the joint anyway, and 2) on top of tithing and other offerings they pay, most can't afford it. Godfrey from the get-go has misunderestimated and miscalculated his target audience.
It Never Ends:
The company that did the financial analysis for Hizzonah on the gondola project the Mayor now says he's not sure make sense anymore did nothing wrong. It did exactly what it was hired to do, as it should have: take the numbers the city provided and without examining them [it was instructed not to], do a financial analysis of the gondola proposal that presumed all the figures it was given were accurate. I give the company a lot of credit for making sure, in no uncertain terms in the introduction to the analysis it produced, that readers understood exactly the constraints it was under, which constraints were placed on it by the city when it hired them. I don't see any reason why the company should not be qualified to bid on other work the city has on offer.
How do you know what I look like, Poster? Unless you're Captain Geiger of the famed Wayne Peterson Squirrel Patrol, in which case ... I'm 5-10 with goodly reeb boiler and the gun show! And I don't hate squirrels.
Larry Miller's Megaplex Disappoints....
When the Megaplex was about to open, and the SE did a long piece on it, it included a statement by one of the mangers that the theater intended to book on one screen some films that were out of the Hollywooed Mega Blockbuster Car Crash Gore T&A mainstream. I was very glad to hear that, being tired of having to drive to SL or to Layton to see slightly out of mainstream films or even controversial ones. [When Layton shows more nerve in booking controversial films than Ogden... Layton for gawd's sake!... well, what is there to say?]
So, great hopes for the Megaplex breaking the mould of mainstream booking at multiplexes in Ogden. This morning, I turned to the paper hoping to see that "Sicko" [which just opened and which the SE reviewer gave 4 stars to] was running at the Megaplex at the Junction. It'd be my first visit there.
Sigh. No. Nothing on the Miller Megaplex screens but the usual mix. Same as at the Mall multiplex. No "Sicko." If you want to see it you'll have to drive all the way to Salt Lake City.
Promises, promises....
Tec, it's as plain as the potato on ones' face. Look at their principals, their website and the fact they never would reveal the purpose of financial gains from their (BIG) pre-opening event. What else can we conclude?
Bill:
What I'm wondering is if Envision Ogden paid sales taxes on the 25 and 30 dollar admissions wristbands it sold for the Peek Preview of the Junction. [Is it registered as a non-profit? If so, is it exempt from sales taxes on tickets sold as fund raisers? If it's not a registered non-profit, did it pay sales taxes on the wristbands it sold?] Seems to me all of that... its tax status [non-profit?] and sales taxes paid [if any] on its Junction promotion... should be a matter of public record.
Before the pouncing starts: I am not alleging that EO did anything wrong in its Junction Sneak Peek promotion and fund-raiser. But it did run a public promotion and fund raiser involving city-owned property [The Junction] and so I'd like to know whether it did so as a registered non-profit organization or not, and if not, I'd like to know if sales taxes were collected on the proceeds.
And LO... pardon me, I mean EO... might like to at lest consider this for future fund-raisers: it might be a good idea to be very upfront about the fund-raising nature of such events next time. I didn't learn that the Sneak Peek promotion was an EO fundraiser until I read the piece about EO in the SE's "top of Utah" promotional pull-out section many days later, which reported it as an EO fundraiser.
The Godfrey administration has not yet learned that full disclosure is [providing nothing illegal or unethical is underway] always the best policy for governments, and other organizations like EO to follow. I hope the managers of EO have learned that. Maybe they can hold a class or two for the Mayor if they have.
This lying little chucky cheese impersonator needs treatment, as pointed out by his press release(Schwebke's piece) he has five kids. Thats five potential dishonest sociopaths in the making. If JIMMY SWAGGERT can straighten him up I'm all for it, as should everyone in ,in Weber County.
We humble folks here in Utah have a history of being a little to lax,when it comes to stopping those who would do great harm to society. We failed to stop the likes of Ted Bundy, Joseph Paul Franklin, Jake Garn, Mike Leavitt, we must do our duty and save the greater society by putting an end to lying little pinnoccio chucky cheeze impersonating gondola matty godfrey's rein ao terror.
In the case of the flowrider, it is absolutely insane that it is owned by Gold's who enjoys a subsidized rent when the city could have easily kept this little gem for themselves as a cash cow. At least half of all flowrider installations are municipally owned. As it is they likely have this thing double or triple subsidized in the final financial structure and not receiving any direct revenue.
Tec, I have a copy of the lease aggreement, I haven't gone through it completely as of yet, but I'd be happy to share it with you.
I wonder how the power is paid at the Salomon. I'd be willing to bet the city is subsidizing that, too, as they get the lowest rates from RMP. My research reveals the power use on a flowrider is about 6-10g/mo. depending on the kwh rate.
That'd be cool Bill, we should meet down there sometime today.
Tec:
Well, no. The city should not be operating/owning flow rider for profit. Of course, it should also not be subsidizing private health clubs, arcade emporiums and such like either. But I don't think city ownership [for profit] of the flowrider would be a good idea. Presumably, the success of the rider, if it proves to be long term and substantial, will eventually be reflected in Gold's lease payments, sales tax revenues, and Gold's business income taxes. Presumably.
Tec, today's bad, have critical appointment arranged at the foothill open space complex. Will try to make contact later.
10-4, Bill
Bill C:
Regarding your 10:12 a.m. post on a Mount Rushmore of Utah crooks, grab a copy of the July 2 issue of Forbes magazine, page 32. Native Utahn, devout Mormon, and CEO of Xinhua Finance, Loretta ("Fredy") Kartchner Bush, now of Hawaii, understated her tax liability by NINETY-SEVEN PERCENT in '99 and '00. Settled with the IRS for about 850K, not including ineterest. Can we grow 'em out here, or what?
Nice catch Moroni, do you play a long trumpet of ancient origin? I could have named many more(jim hansen) but I felt there were enough to convey the thought. I would have missed Freddy.
MM and Bill C:
Well, I figure Utah politicians, businessmen and public employees are about as corrupt... and as honest... as those most states.
Now, if you want to argue stone crazy I'll concede that the Utah legislature and the Louisiana legislature are in a dead heat eight to ten lengths ahead of the rest of the field and widening the gap....
Curmudgeon
You do a great disservice to the Missippii State Legislature by leaving them with not even an honorable mention. (or is that dishonorable?)
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