By Curmudgeon
Well, Managing Editor Andy Howell of the Standard-Examiner, in his "Behind the Headlines" column this morning, offers up an explanation of how the inaccurate story about the City Council's resolution on the coming transportation tax got printed in his paper. And an apology. It's a complicated process, a chain of events that went wrong in sequence, resulting in the Std-Ex getting the story flat wrong.
Here's the apology, from his column:
In hindsight, the story should have been held. The reported objections by the mayor were inconsistent with what we thought was the council’s action. His concerns indicated there was a misunderstanding, or there was a bigger issue we weren’t aware of. Either way, it left a hole in the story that outweighed the urgency of reporting the council’s vote on the matter. It is our job to provide clarity for readers on government action, not add to the confusion. With this story we failed.But then, having explained and properly apologized for the paper's muff, he just couldn't leave well enough alone. He had to go on and editorialize, berating the Council for having done what his paper mis-reported. The closing paragraph of the column:
That being said, what good is adopting a resolution of neutrality on a ballot issue? I don’t mean to single out the Ogden council, because the Layton City Council did the same thing. But the purpose of such a resolution is to let voters know where the council stands. If council members didn’t want to take a position, they just should not have voted on the resolution. As it stands, the council made a decision to be undecided.So close, Mr. Howell. You came so close, but faded down the stretch. The little gratuitous editorial stuck on the end of the Std-Ex's mea culpa suggests that all the Council did in its resolution was refuse to take a definite stand on the coming vote. Wrong. It also in its resolution stated its view that if the tax passed, no less than 40% of the money should be spent on transit funding, a not-meaningless statement since WACOG at a recent meeting in a non-binding vote indicated it wants to spend 80% of the money on roads, and only 20% on transit. Here is the full resolution the Council passed [minus the "wherases"]. I wonder if Mr. Howell read the whole thing before opining in his column that it was all just a meaningless exercise:
NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED BY THE OGDEN CITY COUNCIL, that if the Opinion Question #1 ballot measure is approved by County residents the Council hereby formally encourages the Weber Area Council of Governments (WACOG) to distribute the funds from the tax increase so that at least 40% of the funds are used for transit projects. Further, the Council encourages the voters of Ogden City and Weber County to voice their opinions regarding the question on November 6th.Note, please, that the main intent of the resolution was to urge 40% of the spending at least be on transit, not the "urge to vote" that so annoyed Mr. Howell.
One other thing worth noting about Mr. Howell's essay this morning. Again, from Mr. Howell's column:
During the vote, it was noted that the mayor, who was aware of the change [in the resolution], was not happy with the [new] resolution. This was puzzling, since Scott [Schwebke] knew the mayor supported the original version of the resolution, the one Scott thought had been approved. After the meeting, Scott asked both Chief Administrative Officer John Patterson and council Executive Director Bill Cook why the mayor was not happy with the resolution. Both told him to ask the mayor, who was not at the meeting and couldn’t be reached.... Scott wasn’t able to reach Godfrey after the meeting. Faced with a deadline, he wrote the story with what he had for the next day’s paper.English translation: the Std-Ex's reporter asked the Mayor's Chief Executive Officer for information that, had he supplied it, would have resulted in the story being reported accurately. Being Godfrey's chief aide, naturally, he stonewalled, and told Mr. Schwebke to ask the Mayor, who was unavailable. Imagine that. [Yes, he also asked Mr. Cook, who works for the Council. But Mr. Cook quite properly told Schewbke to ask the Mayor, since it is not Mr. Cook's responsibility to speak for the administration or explain its views. That is, however, one of Mr. Patterson's responsibilities. Presumably he was at the meeting, in lieu of the Mayor, to do just that.]
Imagine that. Godfrey's chief administrative officer refusing to supply the Std-Ex with information it needed to report the Council's proceedings accurately. Who'da ever thunk it?
Also in this morning's paper, an article on Amer Sports's big opening bash at the renovated American Can building downtown. Many notable personages there for the festivities, including Gov. Huntsman. As the Std-Ex reports, the stage was "crowded" with "representatives from the Ogden Chamber of Commerce" singing the praises of Mayor Godfrey: "Mayor Godfrey saw a vision and ran with it," said Marsha Combe, a member of the Ogden Chamber of Commerce. "It's neat to see a business like this in this part of Ogden," she said.
OK. Fair enough. Credit for bringing Amer to Ogden instead of Salt Lake goes to the Mayor, and rightly so. But I did notice, in the entire article, the omission of a particular word. Or I should say, the strange omission of a particular word. The word is "gondola." Nary a single mention. Passing strange, I thought, since but a few short months ago, the Mayor and Mr. Curt Geiger, strong Godfrey advocate, were insisting to all and sundry that without the promise of an imminent gondola in Godfrey-town, Amer Sports would not have come here, that in fact Amer Sports came because of the gondola promise. "Just ask them," we were told. "Just ask them."
And now a whole day of speechafyin' and celebratin' and all kinds of big wigs there, and the Mayor congratulating himself and likening the coming of Amer Sports to the "the joining of the railroads" with the golden spike --- yes, he really did say that --- and suddenly the gondola project, once touted as the lynchpin to it all, has vanished.
Imagine that....
104 comments:
Well, now Howell has truely let his and papers bias slip out. After his silly attempt at explaination, for a truely grevious screw up, that could actually prod voters to vote against their own best interests, he goes out of his way to impress a negative connotation towards the Council. Had he just finnished reading Filunga's letter or what?
Why, would he be doing this? Why does any discussion of the mayor's short comings end up with a discussion of the Council, with some negative tone? Is the SE being controlled by e-mail from the mayor's campain?
Another example, only this one is by ommission.( this one also points out that Dowse, as Jason so intuitively and accurately named, is a jackass) This big, well timed open house for Amer, campain rally for lying little matty?
The gov was there, understandable, this was mostly his doing. Eight million bucks. The mayor was there, head cheerleader thru-out the deal.(note, other than cheerleading and securing financial returns for himself and his cronies, he plays no role.) The extra incentive dollars came from where? The City Council. Yes, the Council controls the purse strings, not lying little matty.
Who was ommitted from the article in the paper and not formally invited to attend this gala? The City Coubcil.
So, we have the gov, eight million, jackass publicly thanks. The Council, appr. four million, jackass doesn't invite or thank. Lying little matty using jackass to secure his and his cronies,(blaine johnson included) a free big gala campain rally, and jackass and the paper seem to want to infer to the people we need an all new group of male idiots on the Council, for some undisclosed reason.( filunga's conclusion) Strange?
I'm not sure I've elaborated this clearly enough, hopefully after reading this, a few of the intelectually inclined can further this in more detailed clarity.
I'm getting mad as hell.
"I'm mad as hell, and I'm not gonna take it anymore!"
One of the best lines ever delivered...that, and, "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn."
Yep, Rudi...imagine that!
Bill C:
Well, we disagree about Howell's explanation and mea culpa. Seems straightforward and was gracefully done [but for the Council swipe following] I thought. And it located responsibility for the muff where it belonged: with the editors who ran the story when it was evident something was amiss. Schwebke went after the right source to get the right information, Mr. Patterson. He just got stonewalled, and the editors decided to go with what they had, which was a mistake, as Mr. Howell said. I have no problem with that. It was a straightforward explanation and a straight-up acceptance of responsibility. Kudos to Howell for that.
As for the Amer Bash, granted the story mentioned no Council members present. But do we know the Council was not invited? Or are you assuming that? If the Council was in fact not invited, seems to me that's something the SE should be interested in editorializing upon, and maybe even reporting as a story. I figure it owes the Council one.
So, do we know for a fact the Council was not invited?
We entirely agree, Curm. Mr. Howell's explanation of the sequence of events leading up to the inaccurate story was entirely plausible and understandable.
And for those of us who'd believed that the Std-Ex hadn't yet adequately corrected its error, today's full column, devoted entirely to the subject, ought to give us all satisfaction that the Std-Ex has done its best to clarify the situation for its general readership, we think.
A member of Wayne Peterson's famed Squirrel Patrol, under indictment for $11 million worth of felony insurance fraud, strolled into a quiet eatery and coffee shop on historic Two-bit Street in OTown on Friday afternoon, and proceeded to reveal a number of interesting things, the most insignificant of which is that he is one of those arrogant assbags who badgers the wait staff and is generally a jackass of a customer. Yes, Gadi Leshem, an apparent facilitator of developments who repeatedly referenced "Vegas," and some other clown clad in western wear and stinking of a bolo tie, laid out maps on the lunch table and discussed their plans for construction around the FrontRunner station. The developer dude said, "OK, Wal-Mart is here" and it looked to be near the site of the famed Squirrel Patrol leader's Bootjack land. This affirms Lying Little Matty Gondola Godfrey indeed plans to capitalize on the arrival of commuter rail by sticking a freaking Wal-Mart near the station. Nice vision, which extolls "the precious character of this young man." "You're going to make out significantly on that land," said one of the guys to Leshem. The Vegas referencer proceeded to speak of how Leshem's inability to secure some contiguous parcels would not really affect his development and that he envisions a lot of retail, shops and restaurants for "your development, Gadi," as The Junction -- one of the Gondola-Godfrey-Examiner's nominees for "Seven Wonders of Top of Utah -- won't have any retail. Also, he said UTA won't be "selling a certain parcel" and that they will be providing parking and surps for whatever concurrent transit option, but made no mention of "the gondola" and instead said something about bus lines. Sorry to burst your bubble, THE SKI IS BEAUTIFUL BLUE. Then the expert spoke of how transit lines and hubs are coordinated and how the west side of the rail stop is ideal for Leshem's plans. He mumbled something about "if the mayor can pull that off, which I doubt," but I don't know what he was talking about. He then reiterated how the land Leshem already owns is the key and how he would work to create a "development that succeeds for you, Gadi." There is nothing wrong with Leshem creating a successful development near FrontRunner, but it is disconcerting that the beneficiary of Matty Gondola Godfrey policy is a crony of his, whereas all other potential property owners have been shut out. Also, a freaking Wal-Mart? That's just what we need at the commuter rail...a glorious Wal-Mart. Let's not stop the momentum! Let's keep Lying Little Matty Gondola Godfrey and his visions!"
Curm, yes we know the council wasn't invited. What pray tell, do you think has me so pissed off? Why do you think I've concluded so completely that dowse truely is a jackass of the highest order, and a very ungrateful sob, as well as foolish to allow himself and co. to be used so brazenly by lying little matty and his cabal? Question for Dowse. Haven't you concidered that the people of Ogden don't want this lying little SOB as mayor any longer? Why burn bridges on his behalf?
Bill C:
Well, then, if that's so, as public spirited readers of the SE, let's help the paper out, since it's evidently short staffed. Let's do a headline and lede so the SE can concentrate on filling in the rest of the story:
AMER SPORTS SNUBS CITY COUNCIL
Amer Sports snubbed the Ogden City Council by not inviting the Council to take park in Amer Sports opening day celebration in Ogden Friday. Despite the presence of the Governor John Huntsman, the Mayor, and many representatives of the Ogden-Weber Chamber of Commerce on the platform at the public event, Amer Sports pointedly excluded the Ogden City Council. When asked why, president of Amer Sports Mike Dowse said...."
OK, Standard Examiner, you guys can take it from there.
I've been a regular reader of this forum for several months. I've been one of the critical mayoral candidate "undecideds" that Curm and Rudi speak of. But I think I've made my decision. I watched the WSU mayoral debate on Comcast OnDemand yesterday, then attended the Amer ribbon cutting ceremony. It is true, Godfrey actually had the audacity to say that yesterday's events had the significance of the joining of the railroads. But come on, Rudi, give your readers the context of that statement. He said the joining of the railroads marked the beginning of an economic engine for a generation in Ogden. Who can deny that? We're STILL called a railroad town.
The defense industry provided an economic engine for another generation. The last attempt at real economic stimulation was trying to copy the industrial park construction phenomenon during the 70s and 80s. For the 15 years I've lived in Ogden, I've been astounded at the relics of these various economic eras. Whether you hate Godfrey or love him, give him the credit he deserves for identifying and aggressively pursuing a unique and viable economic engine...the outdoor sports industry. Furthermore, give him credit for the renovation of so many of the relics of bygone economic booms from decaying, empty brick and mortar into some of the coolest buildings in the center of the most diverse and eclectic city in Utah.
Now will come the "cronyism" argument that I've read here a hundred times. "He's just filling the pockets of all of his developer, real estate and construction buddies with public funds." To which I say, "Don't hate the player. Hate the game." Promises of "open, sensible leadership" don't get global entities to move to Ogden, Utah. A certain level of discretion is required in such matters. If Godfrey had been completely open about the courting of Amer from the beginning, it would have only fueled the efforts of Seattle, Park City, Salt Lake and Portland.
Continue to fry "Avocado Nose" and "Lying Little Matty" all you want on this forum, but I defy you to turn your nose up at what they've accomplished with the Amer move. The unbelievable restoration of one of the biggest pieces of blight in the city, hundreds of high paying jobs, the home purchases that result, the dollars spent by those newcomers in our shops and restaurants. But for me it's less about the dollars than the community that is being built. New kids on my kids' soccer teams, new neighbors that look at this place with fresh eyes and are astounded at where they live, new volunteers and athletes at the Ogden Marathon or Xterra. I love that my town is being infused with people who are excited to discover new trails and are replacing people whose idea of excitement was the discovery of an untagged wall. Give me outdoor junkies over gang bangers any day.
I love the direction the city is moving and I'm astounded at the momentum it is moving with. To hear Susie Van Hooser give accolades to "Goodie" skis during the WSU debate made me cringe (It's Goode...pronounced "good"). Possibly just an inadvertent mispronunciation caused by the stress of the debate environment, but more likely a fundamental disconnect between a would-be mayor and an industry that is already proving to be a legitimate economic engine in our community.
Which brings me to the gondola. Trust me when I say that there is no one on this forum more opposed to the gondola than I am. My hatred of the gondola and all that has surrounded it for several years is what drives me to this forum several times each week. It is what has kept me in the "undecided" camp for this long. But here is why I've decided to support Godfrey over Van Hooser:
There is no political candidate who can ever fully satisfy any constituent. But the way I see it, Godfrey gets beaten down where he needs to be beaten down. Wal-Mart on 20th Street, the golf course sale and, for the time being, the gondola. Like virtually everyone on this site, my skin crawls when Dave Hardman or one of the Geigers slyly says, "Oh, it's going to happen," as though back room deals have already assured it's construction.
No one can deny that Godfey's vision is what has brought Amer and other similar companies to Ogden. The gondola is certainly a part of that vision, but it's a part that I believe will fade. As Salomon, Atomic, Suunto, Goode, Nidecker, USA Cycling, etc. employees move here and start running and mountain biking on our trails, they'll begin to see our mountain assets as we see them. I don't care if the idea of a gondola got a Salomon guy here. Once that guy experiences the Bonneville Shoreline Trail as an Ogdenite and mountain lover, he's one of us. His passion for a gondola will fizzle. Outdoor sporting goods companies beat the sustainability drum more loudly than any other industry. If a couple hundred of Mike Dowse's employees popped into his office and told him they like their mountain town without a gondola, Dowse is going to tell the mayor and Geiger to back off. If that doesn't work, Dowse has the ear of Governor Huntsman.
I know there are many more issues at play in this election...crime, infrastructure, etc., but I believe that infusing the community with healthy, bright citizens who understand sustainability and who bring experiences from other cities where they've worked in the outdoor industry, they'll bring the passion and creativity needed to solve those issues. Just because someone moved here with Amer doesn't mean it's all about gondolas. They become Ogden citizens who want good water systems, decent roads, better schools, open spaces, reduced crime...the things we all want.
In the end, I think what finally swayed my vote toward the Godfrey ticket is the fact that Godfrey has demonstrated a vision and is campaigning on his approach to achieving it. After seeing the debate and reading the posts here, it feels like Van Hooser's entire campaign platform is "I'm not Matt Godfrey." While compelling, it's just not enough.
(Posted by Anonymous to Weber County Forum at October 20, 2007 12:10 PM -- Reposted under an assigned name by an administrator)
Another byproduct of Lying Little Matty Gondola Godfrey's campaign and his "precious character" is the fact -- not a rumor, not an assertion -- that city crews asphalted Phidia Cutrubus' private property, as well as dozens of private alleyways behind businesses (read: Gondola Boy Mike Dowse, jackass!, and onion-reeking Descente) that are friendly to the teeny-weeny weiner's coffers and his efforts to build circus rides around town. And, yes, Bill, these morons who want a fuggin' ice tower downtown also want $75K per year for naming rights. And the Jackass Center? Free for jackass Gondola Boy Mike Dowse.
"I think what finally swayed my vote toward the Godfrey ticket is the fact that Godfrey has demonstrated a vision and is campaigning on his approach to achieving it."
Kumbaya, not anonymous.
Have another jug of kool-aide.
Not Anonymous:
You wrote: Whether you hate Godfrey or love him, give him the credit he deserves for identifying and aggressively pursuing a unique and viable economic engine...the outdoor sports industry.
Just for the record, I have said exactly that, here, many times over. Where we disagree, you and I, is about whether, on balance, that is enough to outweigh the other matters, the "negatives," some of which you touched on. I think not. You think so. Fair enough.
Rather than rehashing yet again what I think those negatives are, let me only point out now that a good deal of what you praise as accomplished fact in re: the renovation and revitalization of downtown I see as still unproven. We don't know yet if the Junction will succeed as an entertainment and dining venue. [I hope it does.] We don't know yet if pledging millions of dollars of city revenues from BDO to pay the bond costs on the project far into the future was a prudent move or not. So while I hope it all comes up gold, so to speak, I think the jury is still out on how wise the mayor's business judgment was in that regard. And in some others. You are evidently more confident than I am.
As for the "golden spike/meeting of the RR's" comment I posted above. OK, I left out the full context. Point conceded. But then, so did you, which is understandable, because so did the Mayor. If you recall, what he's been telling us for the past several years, is not that Amer Sports and other outdoor businesses locating in Ogden will be an economic "engine" to drive the economy like the old joining of the rails did. What he's been saying has been quite different. He's been claiming that the gondola/development of a Vacation Resort on the golf course lands, second gondola up the mountain, development of a Malan's Basin resort --- all of that, generally called "The Peterson Plan" --- would be like unto the joining of the rails. So when the Mayor made is "joining of the rails" comment at Amer, he yanked it out of the context he'd used it in for the past two years, and slipped it into a nearly completely new one. Given that, I thought pulling it back out of the new context he tried to give it was fair practice. Maybe not.
Though we apparently disagree on the election, I enjoyed your post. Nice to see points argued on the other side vigorously, but civilly. Hope you'll be back. And [given other recent posts regarding a Wal-Mart to greet the de-training in Ogden], I hope we agree on Council candidates if we do not agree on the Mayoral race.
"Have another jug of kool-aide."
Ha! You're hilarious! I get it! Godfrey is Jim Jones and I'm one of his mindless followers! No wait, he's Napoleon...get it, because he's short and has a power complex!!! No wait, he's Hitler! Yeah, that's it!
I've been around the forum long enough to know that daring to give Godfrey...I mean, "lying little matty"... any kind of positive critique would open me to bashing, but come on...tell me why my view is so dead wrong. I apologize for the long post and don't expect an equally long response, but you've got to to better than the typical name calling that abounds here. If your best refutation is to call me a Peoples Temple follower, you're digging.
Dear Not Anonymous:
Your "writing" is "infused" with Geigerisms -- economic engine, vision, passion, renovation -- and gondola-freak lies. And I suspect you're being disingenuous and are a covert member of Wayne Peterson's famed Squirrel Patrol. Nonetheless, you have your opinion, however uneducated and poorly articulated. SVH saying "Goodie" makes you cringe; fair enough. How did you react when Lying Little Matty Gondola Godfrey said he cannot recall one instance where he withheld information from the council? Does your enthusiasm for the outdoors industry outweigh your allegiance to truth and honesty? Lying Little Matty Gondola Godfrey is a spouse-abusing liar and shameful -- possibly criminal -- abuser of the public trust and coffers. But you're "swayed" to his "ticket" because of his "vision." Are you a 14-year-old child?
"Ha! You're hilarious! I get it! Godfrey is Jim Jones and I'm one of his mindless followers! No wait, he's Napoleon...get it, because he's short and has a power complex!!! No wait, he's Hitler! Yeah, that's it!"
That pretty much sums it up, in my view, although you rambled WAY out of the rational ballpark with some of your analogies.
But Godfrey still has that important "mushroom vision."
And that's all GOOD, YES?
Forget the price tag! Godfrey has a "vision," ferkripesake -- and we need to give the BIG BORROWER/SPENDER CARTE BLANCHE - FOR THE NEXT FOUR (4) YEARS!
Right?
Mr. not anonymous, I think you're the kind of voter,(person) that scares me the most. You, like so many of the local self rightous, are totally willing to overlook things like honesty and ethics. You would have someone believe these are part of your core values, yet you are so willing to overlook them in this regard.
I also believe you are placing far too great a significance on the arrival of one company to this town. Great, Amer is not likely to improve the lives of the people risiding here, you know that.
As to those referencing the Kool-aide, they are right, you have place way too much significance on this hype, thus Koll-aid, Uphoria.
I noticed you avoid ed any discussion of morals, ethics and honesty in your post, would you like to address them? We would love to see where they fit in your decission proccess.
jason w.,
As far as I know, the Geigers didn't create the words "economic engine, vision, passion or renovaiton." Maybe you missed the part where I stated that I am vehemently opposed to the gondola. It is absolutely hilarious to me that when I post my anti-gondola arguments on Liftie forums, I'm labeled as a Smart Growth Ogden naysayer or a CAVEman and when I post pro-outdoor industry comments on WCF, I'm a Jim Jones kool-aid drinker and a 14-year-old child. With geniuses like you on one side and the Geigers on the other, Ogden will remain forever divided.
My hope is that more Curms and Dan Schroeders will surface and a level of civility can be brought to this discussion. Either that, or I hope we can somehow organize a pay-per-view cage match fight between you and the Geigers. How's that for an economic engine idea?
Dear Not (A Gondola Freak):
You did not post "pro outdoor industry comments," you referenced this business segment moving to OTown as justification for your allegiance to a teeny-weeny criminal liar who loves gondolas because his "vision" for gondolas was given to him by God. That's old Killee Magee Up There.
But more importantly, you did not address Lying Little Matty Gondola Godfrey's dishonesty and fiscal malfeasance.
Also: What do you know about gondolas? There are these two genius onion-loving guys who run a ski clothing outfit who say they save communities and are the future of transit! Why would you make negative inferences about gondolas?
THE SKI IS BEAUTIFUL BLUE
Curm,
Thank you for YOUR civility as well. I believe we probably agree seat for seat on the council. And I think we're probably in full agreement on The Junction development as well. The jury is still out for me. I'm personally not a fan of the place. I gave it a fair shake...been to a couple of movies, sampled the restaurants, etc. I'm personally hoping Fat Cats tanks and that something like REI steps into the space. Clearly, I'm a bigger fan of outdoor recreation than arcade games and indoor putt-putt golf courses.
Bill C....on WHAT do you base your claim that "Amer is not likely to improve the lives of people residing here?" How do you know that to be fact? What to you know about the economics a company like Amer will bring to a community?
It amazes me how personal assumption that drives certain engines, you know, the ones that sound like they are guzzling Regular when they actually need Supreme....nothing but "pings."
A couple of points -
First, the idea that Godfrey brought Amer here is a little gratuitous. I believe it also had something to do with the cheap real estate and the environment, you know, two of the things Godfrey has been ruining. (Just got my tax notice, BTW.)
Second, since the city council was not invited, it's clear that Amer really cares nothing for Ogden, it's citizens, their representatives, or anything else besides their own small pack of insular, self-worshiping cronies.
Yeah, I'm glad they cleaned out the pigeons and mice from the Am Can building and substituted some parasites of the upright-walking kind. But somehow, I don't think it was worth the millions they picked from my pocket to do it.
Of course, being the ones who sopped all that green up, I'm sure the Amer Sports party attendees all DID feel it was worth it. (BTW, Do all those nice taxpayer subsidized windows look like they're just asking for a brick? Maybe it's just me. Never mind, Mikey.)
But hey Mr. Dowse, welcome to Ogden, you subsidy-sucking, mirror-gazing, butt-kissing jerk! We luv ya baby! Can't ya tell?
And as far as you, Mr. Not, thanks for the posts. It is clear you are a truly thoughtful moral giant, deeply infused with both wisdom and knowledge. As you impart of yourself to poor souls like me, would you mind if I kneel, smile, and bat my eyes as I gaze upward to you in wonder?
Not Anonymous
A very good post, thanks. Us'n "naysayers" need an articulate and well thought out response from the "other side" now and again. I too hope that you ring in more often in the future. It could elevate the discussion on this forum.
I think that most people in Ogden appreciate the apparent progress and positive things that are going on in town like you do. But unlike you, are concerned about the long term consequences that these things may bring.
I also believe that what most people have heart burn over is the dictatorial, arrogant, secretive and dishonest way in which the mayor goes about things. I think that had he been willing, or capable, to be more open and honest with the people of Ogden he could have taken Ogden even further and without the rancor and contempt he has raised. If he had treated all the people with the respect and consideration he has shown to his crony choir he would not be hated by so many people like he is now.
There is a very large segment of Ogden's citizens that feel disrespected by the mayor, and they may very well reciprocate at the ballot box in a couple of weeks. I for one sure hope so. I would much rather have an inexperience mayor that is honest and open than one who is dishonest, secretive and manipulative with the people.
While the addition of fine companies like AmerSport is very welcome, I think a lot of the other stuff he has done is a very dangerous house of cards. The vast majority of the "success" stories that the mayor has are totally unproven. The citizens are in debt at least $93 million dollars for projects that are either unproven, shaky or in the courts. In addition, every single RDA project in Ogden is pledged to this Mall project, including the BDO revenue - Ogden's only certifiable and verified winner. The BDO by the way was not done by Godfrey, but by mayor Meacham. It is the only winner Ogden has and Godfrey has subordinated it to his High Tech Rec dream!
This $93 million does not include the many millions in bribes tendered by the State and city to attract these companies. Example being the $8 million from the state and the $3 million from the city to attract AmerSport. With an $ll million dollar hand out, I find it hard to see the benefit to the average tax payer. Yes, I know that the numbers manipulators have a wonderful, and to them, plausible explanation of how great this is going to be for Ogden long term, but I think their projections are based in part by unreasonable projections.
The mayor and his team have made unreasonable, and in some cases wild and crazy, projections a regular art form in these parts. One case in point being the projection on the Rec Center that said there would be 1000 lines of bowling per day. It is extremely doubtful that there is 1000 lines being bowled there in a week. In addition, most every projection the mayor and his team used to justify the Rec center were grossly over stated. Numbers seemingly pulled out of thin air and left unchallenged by his former rubber stamp council.
Incidentally, all the numbers associated with the Rec center came from an extremely questionable "study" conducted by the very people who are now the beneficiaries of a very sweet deal compliments of the tax payers of Ogden. The Fat Cat and Golds people came up with the numbers! They are now getting at least a hundred and fifty thousand dollar a month subsidy from the city! The so called "study" was very weak and prepared by people that didn't even know what to study or how to do it, and again used bogus numbers and projections pulled out of thin air.
It was not done by unbiased professionals. It was a farce cooked up by the mayor and these two entities. The mayor then ran up another $25 million on the tax payer's credit card based on these cooked up numbers and projections.
How smart or honest was that?
When the Rec center fails, and yes, I am projecting it will, the tax payers of Ogden will be taken down to the tune of $25 million dollars and possibly the whole mall itself will go down with it.
It is unfortunate that this mayoral election is happening before the chickens have a chance to come home to roost on all of the projects that the mayor is crowing about. I think it would serve justice much better if the voters could judge the mayor based on the real world success or failure of this bewildering collection of very expensive and tax payer funded projects.
Any one with an unlimited credit card can build a huge fancy and shiny looking machine. None of what the mayor has built on the tax payer's credit card has come close to proving viability in the real world. It is all a great story, but again I think it is a huge house of cards that will not bear up to the winds of the real world.
The first stiff breeze will blow the whole damn thing to hell.
As a tax payer in Ogden, I sure hope I'm wrong!
Hey curious, as Danny has pointed out, all these guys have done is take. And they'll be a taking for some time to come.
One other thing, Amer hasn't even been in exsistence that long, they are the by-product of a large stock aquisition and merger, same thing could happen tommorrow and they would no longer exsist.
By intentionally dissin the Council dowse has shown his true lack of concern for anything Ogden.
We know he intentionally omitted the Council, it was suggested to him to include them, way in advance. He chose not to.
How many of you have received your e-mail notice from THE PEOPLE TO RE-ELECT MAYOR MATTHEW GODFREY from Jessica@votematthew.com?
The interesting thing is that the e-mails are being sent to persons not living in Ogden nor registered in Ogden and with no telephone listing in the Ogden telephone book.
An interesting but nonproved asssumption is that THE PEOPLE TO RE-ELECT MAYOR MATTHEW GODFREY have access to the VERY THOROUGH records of the LDS Church with e-mail addresses included.
The reason for this assumption is that before the Primary a few persons still listed on LDS records even though they are not active members received a political solicitation by mail from this same committee.
These persons were not listed in the telephone directory so there is no other way for the addresses to be of record.
I know this works because I have taken advantage of the system in the past myself.
For those of you who are Gentiles, once you are a member of the LDS church your name is carried always.
The $6 grand Godfrey is rumored to be spending a month for his campaign committee may pay off if he is preying on his fellow church members.
Oh hey! could be the Mayor is accesssing the names of residents at all addresses through the Water Dept. records for mailings.
I doubt if the e-mail addresses are on water department records.
So help me figure out the solution to this puzzle.
Curious, not anonymous, who ever you are? Jason, Ozboy and I have all asked you in one way or another to address honesty, intergrety and ethics, why your refusal?
Politics Suck:
My understanding is the LDS Church comes down pretty hard on people who use church records for political causes. But that's the church. It doesn't say whether there are certain members who do it either because they don't know better or are just corrupt as individuals.
It does seem clear, that whatever else is said there is a widespread belief that there is a great deal of corruption among Godfrey supporters - more than I can remember for any candidate.
Anticipating Curm's immediate rebuttal, I do feel that it is quite often true that, "Where there's smoke, there's fire."
Of course, regarding corruption and insular dealings, in Godfrey's case we can say, "We know there's a fire, so it's no wonder there's so much smoke."
Sorry to those who have responded to my post and feel I'm ignoring them. I'm informed that "Comment moderation has been enabled. All comments must be approved by the blog author." I don't know if posting under the identity of Ben Lomond will allow me to post or not. Still figuring out how WCF works, I guess. I'll try to post again under this identity...
bill c.,
I'm not overlooking honesty and ethics. I told you my skin crawls at the implied back room deals that I hear about in regard to the gondola and a Wal-Mart on 20th Street. I'm not willing to overlook these core values at all. I'm simply holding out hope that Godfrey will get beaten down on such issues. I'm still not fully confident that the golf course is off the table. But I'll be the first in line to demand a recall of Godfrey's mayorship if he tries to bring it back up. I know Godfrey has plenty of sketchy areas. They are what have kept me undecided for so long. It's why I can't support council that readily rubber stamps any Godfrey proposal. I will not vote for Eccles or any others of his ilk.
Where we fundamentally disagree is that you believe Amer's presence in Ogden won't make a lick of difference and I believe it signifies the turning of a corner. The arrival of a different mind-set in Ogden.
Danny, Danny, Danny....
I'm sorry to have invaded your private little corner of "the internets" with something besides hate spewing and name calling. I realize that objectivity and alternate viewpoints are a bit of a foreign language around here, sarcasm being the preferred language. So yeah, let's return the American Can building to it's previous state. Let's break every piece of glass with bricks. Let's make sure that not only Mike Dowse, but anyone else who comes to town, understands with perfect clarity that they're not welcome here. Yours is the vision we should embrace. Yours is the kind of town my kids will be proud to live in. The kind they'll want to stay in with all those great jobs.
ozboy,
Excellent points, one and all. There are definitely some hefty and scary numbers floating out there. No doubt there are some dice that have been thrown that are still rolling. When looked at from only one side, the tax incentive thing looks pretty bleak. However, there are other sides and those are the sides I was trying to address with my original post. I believe that the industry being targeted, attracted and incentivized to come here is one that will greatly help the overall health of the city. What we give up in corporate taxes from an AmerSport, will hopefully be outweighed by the types of citizens it will create and attract and, in turn, the taxes those people pay on property and retail sales.
The outdoor recreation industry is a clean industry. It is a relatively high-paying industry. We can't be the next Silicon Valley. However, we have the assets and venues to be the equivalent in a strong and viable industry...mountains, trails, skiing, open space, etc.
I'm not sure I agree the Rec Center will fail. I believe elements of it will. As I said in a previous post, I actually hope Fat Cats will, for purely selfish reasons. However, it is a prime space for a retailer such as REI.
Believe me, your concerns are my concerns. My leaning toward Godfrey is not because I believe in everything he promotes, but because there is a momentum there that I believe can be steered into a healthy Ogden by a strong city council and an engaged citizenry. I fear losing that momentum to an entirely new and seemingly vague administration. On the other hand, I fear providing too much momentum by giving him a rubber stamp city council. I say let Godfrey remain as the engine and install a new rudder with a more aggressive city council who will demand more accountability.
THE PEOPLE TO RE-ELECT MAYOR MATTHEW GODFREY is one of the re-election committees that Mayor Godfrey failed to register which is one of the claims in the Littrell Extraordinary Writ case being heard Tuesday.
The Ogden Municipal Code was amended years ago to provide that a candidate has to file a campaign committee report naming officers for the committee with the City Recorder.
Godfrey did not do so and claims he didn't know how because there were no forms to do so.
Cindi Mansell says she never heard of The People to Re-elect Mayor Matthew Godfrey.
City Attorney Gary Williams is the one that I see has dropped the ball in failing to call for Godfrey's records to be inspected.
City Attorney Williams might have avoided calling in Snow Martineau and Christensen with their big fees if he had just followed the Municipal Code and asked to see Godfrey's financial records.
Of course, that wouldn't have solved the problem of Godfrey's failure to file the campaign committee with the City Recorder.
This Godfrey fiasco should be a wake up call for all candidates in the future. Especially with the Utah Legislature looking at extending State Election Statutes to local Municipal Election Code.
Ogden's Representative Brad Dee seems to be involved in the election reform legislation. I hope he is keeping notes on all of this.
ben lomond,
The Ogden City Council will never get any backbone against Mayor Godfrey until Bill Cook is fired.
He needs to go.
ben lomond,
you are betting on the wrong horse if you think Mayor Godfrey will ever change his modus operandi.
The only reason there seems to be momentum in Ogden right now is that all the bills haven't been tallied up to compare with the income figures that have really happened - not what is hoped to happen.
You must be a new observer of Mayor Godfrey. He lies one week and reverses himself the next or whenever it suits his purpose.
ben lomond,
we thought the Ogden City Council would get a new direction with the election of Jeske, Stephens and van Hooser's appointment.
If you look at the votes on critical issues like RDA tax increment giveaways.... that new direction DID NOT happen. It is the same old thing. Once in a while Jeske or Stephens will vote NO.
You are dreaming if you think it is going to happen with new Council members and Godfrey staying in offfice.
Dear Ben Lomond:
What is this momentum you reference? Do you like onions? Do you have a prediliction for Patagonia vests and Thorazine?
You are a joke member of Wayne Peterson's famed Squirrel Patrol. Your tactics will not work here.
Your faux rationality will not swing any votes toward Lying Little Matty Gondola Godfrey, just as onion-reeking THE SKI IS BEAUTIFUL BLUE making personal phone calls is equally futile.
None of the Jackass Center can be converted into retail, you simpleton. It's a bowling alley and arcade that was subsidized by our public money. That is one of many of Lying Little Matty Gondola Godfrey "visions" you support, silly child.
Have a Zinger and rest well, knowing God does indeed look after and protect morons.
Old Timer,
It is my cynicism of politicians in general and Godfrey specifically that has me voting for a city council that will give him more of a fight than the current council. Hence my analogy of keeping Godfrey as the engine and installing a rudder than can steer things a bit better. No one can deny that Godfrey makes things happen. However, virtually everyone can question his integrity and lack of openness and exactly HOW he makes it happen. Right now we have a mayor who rides roughshod over a weak council. If we had a stronger council who would stand up to him, we may actually get action AND accountability.
And I don't think there just "seems" to be momentum in Ogden right now. I believe there IS momentum. You're right that the some of the costs of that momentum are yet to be determined, but the momentum is real. All I'm suggesting is that we not stop the momentum, but that we install a council that can better determine its cost.
Well Ben Lomond, one positive side that will result if Godfrey does win is that he will be in the pilot's seat when the plane hits the cliff. He forevermore will go down in Ogden history as the arrogant fool that bankrupted the town with his foolishness, dishonesty and out sized ego.
On the other hand, if he loses and then the town goes bankrupt anyway, he will have the big out and history may treat him way better than he deserves. His story will be that the new mayor blew off all his genius and screwed the citizens of Ogden in so doing. He will escape totally blameless. It would be a tragedy if history exonerates the lyin little bounder.
In spite of the above, I do hope that the voters of Ogden turns him out with a big margin.
Somewhere somehow integrity must be re-introduced into Ogden City Government. That in my opinion is way more important than any amount of new ski companies that might come to town. The ends do not justify the means, and the current situation in Ogden is a prime example.
Ben Lomond,
For a guy who gets so much attention today, it is strange you have such a chip on YOUR shoulder. As far as name calling? Hmmm. It appears that with all your ad hominem acid hurling, that too is something I can learn from you. You are indeed a precious one.
As to your central point: Mayor Godfrey's #1 priority for a third term was selling the golf course, right up until the election loomed. But hey, if he gets back in and tries to sell it again, YOU'LL be the first in line to "demand a recall."
And GOLLY! Won't that count for a LOT! Hey look folks, THIS guy is demanding a recall! Quick, somebody tell Chris Peterson to stop the bulldozers!
WOW, I knew you were smart. I never knew you so were powerful too!
But really, if you can take your ego down a notch, stick around. You can learn a lot here, Bobby.
(BTW, it's nice to hear you figure the city council races are all lost for the Godfreyites and so are not even trying to push those races - focusing instead on Godfrey only. Thanks! I'm sure Godfrey's council toadies appreciate knowing they are considered a lost cause.)
jason w.,
Once, just once, try to point out where my rationality is "faux" instead of resorting to your typical name-calling rants. The momentum I'm referring to is beyond dispute. We can argue the actual numbers all day long, but there is no doubt that companies have moved here and are providing jobs, fueling home purchases and adding to the community that simply wouldn't have come here on their own. They had to be courted to come here. Feel how you want about the price of that courting, but they're here and contributing.
I know you'd rather be standing outside the American Can building throwing rocks at the single remaining pane of glass or looking at a pile of dirt and weeds at the old mall site, but it just didn't work out that way.
As I've said, I'm not a huge fan of the neon clad arcade and bowling alley, but please prove to me that none of that space can be converted to retail. After all, I'm a simpleton. Explain.
I assume you would have argued that the none of the American Can building could be converted to office space as well.
I received a notice:
OGDEN CITY PLANNING COMMISSION
MEETING:
Thursday, November 1, 2007
7:00-9:00 p.m.
Larry H. Miller's MegaPlex-13
Director's Suite (2nd Floor)
2351 Kiesel Avenue
This will be a public town information gathering meeting to begin the process to develop an updated community plan for the Central Business District (downtown)area of Ogden City.
The Central Business District Planning Community extends from 20th to 27th Streets from Wall Avenue to the West side of Adams Avenue and the Ogden River to 27th Street West of Wall to the railroad tracks.
First question, why is this meeting being held in the Larry Miller MegaPlex-13 when we have City offices that are the usual place for such a meeting? Will the City be paying rent for this facility to discuss City business?
I own property in this area and anytime Ogden starts talking about wanting to develop from Wall Avenue West from 20th Street to the railroad tracks I can still hear Scott Brown's and Stuart Reid's intimidating threats to the property owners in this area from the last battle about seizing the property for a Wal-mart.
This time we have a couple of new players -
Godfrey made sure his buddies, Gadi Lesham and Chris Peterson got to buy property on 20th and Wall Avenue thanks to Godfrey's failure to let the Council know who was buying for Bootjack and failure to post public signs so that the public would know the properties were for sale.
If for no other reason, vote NO for Matthew Godfrey so that property owners in this area will not go through the hell they went through three years ago when Mayor Godfrey used threats and intimidation to try to seize their property.
Scott Brown and Stuart Reid have relocated from the Ogden City payroll - at least as far as I know - but Mayor Godfrey's staff is still as ruthless as far as private property rights are concerned as they ever were because Godfrey has not changed his determination to seize that property.
Why do you think Ogden City pays Godfrey's lobbyist to go to the Capitol to lobby against property rights?
Will someone - PLEASE -please give candidate van Hooser a lesson in what she should be bringing out about Matthew Godfrey's tactics.
Dear Bernard:
Why would I throw rocks through windows? I am not a vandal or a thief or a piker or a liar, unlike your buddy, Captain Geiger of Wayne Peterson's famed Squirrel Patrol.
Fat Cats bowling and Gold's Gym are leased by one lardo Lying Little Matty Gondola Godfrey sycophant. That space is surrounded by very expensive circus rides, and the total cost on the Jackass Center is rising above $50 million. It would be cost-prohibitive to retrofit a bowling alley, gym and arcade as retail, when REI or any retailer could build or lease for much less.
Furthermore, the Squirrel Patrol has been whispering about REI building on a parcel at the river owned by one Gadi Leshem.
Moreover, the American Can building is best suited for office uses, so why would I posit such a ridiculous idea, onions?
"No one can deny that [Lying Little Matty Gondola] Godfrey makes things happen."
You are correct there, Squirrel Patroller. Among them, a routine ability to piss on and lecture his constituency.
But thanks for posting. Your continued defense demonstrates your true intentions and motive.
Gotta love those who love gondolas!
THE SKI IS BEAUTIFUL BLUE
Danny,
Wow. You caught me. Yeah, it's me, Bob Geiger. What names did I call? What acid did I hurl? Why does presenting a viewpoint different from yours make me an egomaniac? Irrational rants from jason w that can scarcely be deciphered through all of his code names for everyone and every place in the city are applauded while anyone who dares write a viewpoint that fails to use words like wife-beating liar is castigated.
I've made a couple of points without name calling. For that, I've been called a simpleton, a silly child, an egomaniac, a "precious one," a moron and even Bobby Geiger.
Enjoy your cute little blog world and pray to God you don't lose the few rational posters that frequent here like Curm and Dan S. Posts like yours diminish the relevance of this forum and put it on par with Lift Ogden, making you both the laughable extreme ends of an argument that desperately needs rational discussion.
Godfrey's new mailing is asking for people to re-elect him by coming to the CITY offices Tu thru Th after 5:30 pm, and Sat am to call residents soliciting votes for him. They'll be given talking points and he needs letter writers to send in pro Godfrey opinions to the SE. Who wrote Filiaga's for him?
Sounds like the gals need to get organized too.
May be after hours, by why is Godfrey using the City Bldg to run his re-election campaign?
Didn't Susie just get smackd down for inadvertenly emailing a few city employees?
I'm willing to wager that not one of those employees "complained". They were most likely glad to hear from Susie.
What is on the 6th floor of 2484 Washington Blvd.?
Sorry, jason w. I guess it was danny that suggested tossing bricks through the new windows at the American Can building, not you. It's just getting hard to keep all the attacks on me straight.
Of course it would be costly to retrofit a bowling alley for REI or whomever, but building a huge climbing wall (such as those that exist in REI stores) isn't cheap, either. The Salomon Center would come with one pre-installed. That's got to count for something. As for Gold's Gym, I don't have a huge problem with that. Seems like a natural fit in a community trying to become an outdoor recreation capital.
All I was suggesting with the American Can building is that anyone who looked at it a couple of years ago would be hard pressed to picture what it is becoming.
Again, I have to laugh at being accused of being a gondola freak on this forum. The Lift Ogden crowd wanted to lynch me for positing rational arguments against a gondola among their crowd.
That's what's wrong with this whole debate. If you're pro outdoor industry, you're pro gondola. If you're anti gondola, you're anti everything. Trust me, there is a huge population in Ogden that doesn't fit into these neatly defined categories. People who love what we have and want to welcome businesses that will help us keep it without jacking it all up with a stupid-ass gondola. But until they start their own forum, they'll just get flamed here and at Lift Ogden for suggesting an outdoor recreation community without a circus ride.
Curious:
The Ogden-Weber Chamber of Commerce.
" If you're pro outdoor industry, you're pro gondola. If you're anti gondola, you're anti everything. Trust me..."
I'm sorry, Ben Lomond. My Bullshit meter just went offscale with that last.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
thanks, jason w. -
So why on earth is the Ogden-Weber Chamber of Commerce allowing their offices to be used as campaign headquarters for Matthew Godfrey?
Susan van Hooser should certainly make an issue of that at Wednesday nights debate if she gets a chance.
If I were the candidate I would be calling the Ogden City Attorney about that one.
She needs to get some back bone.
Hey hogwash,
I was saying that those are the categories that have been defined in forums like this. If you read my original post today, I was simply trying to say that I love that the outdoor industry is moving here and that I HATE the gondola. I'm a man without a country.
What about that statement set your bullshit meter off?
So does any public money go into the Ogden-Weber Chamber funds or is its operations all paid for by member dues?
Wrong, Ben Lomond.
Here is what you said:
" If you're pro outdoor industry, you're pro gondola. If you're anti gondola, you're anti everything. Trust me..."
This is completely unsubstantiated and is contrary to reality.
Your assertions are hogwash, as my most recent moniker implies.
Ben Lomond,
Let's see, everyone is bad but you, who are the only rational one (besides the often-soporific Curm and gentle Dan S.) But you never respond to rational arguments made against you, do you, like my observation that your promise to call for Godfrey's recall if he is re-elected then sells the golf course means NOTHING.
We both know that comment of yours was a ruse, like the rest of your posts. Jason W. is right. He can sniff you people a mile away. And may I say, I do find the increasing coarseness of your language disturbing.
Of course, my calling you "Bobby" was a trial balloon, but I have personally smoked out the disingenuous Curt Geiger when he was posting under an alias in the past. Boy did that tick him off!
And thanks for taking the bait on my very mild comment about the taxpayer-subsidized Amer window that seemed to be asking for a brick. I think you've mentioned it about four times now, and so have others. "Wait, no, look, he said it. HE SAID IT!!!! I'm the Godfrey supporter! I'm the rational one!!!" (And I'm sure Mike Dowse appreciates you visualizing that brick for people over and over and over!)
Which now leads me to conclude you are a lawyer, paid by the Godfrey campaign to be here. Yes, it is a guess, but since nobody's putting up your signs anymore, there's not much else to do on a Saturday, is there Blain?
And after all, it is Godfrey that is the rich milky teat for people like you, isn't he? It's Godfrey you need back in. So why not sacrifice his city council toady candidates to gain favors with undecided WCF readers?
"Okay folks, I'm a paid blogger. I agree with you on everything, and I don't even like Lift Ogden. But let's just keep Godfrey, okay?"
Limbaugh calls such people "seminar callers."
Not a bad way to make $100 an hour on a Saturday, eh Blain?
Hogwash,
Read it again. Have someone help you with the big words if you need to. I was saying what I perceive to be the PROBLEM with this argument....that the sides have been improperly defined. That if you go against the pro-gondola crowd, they label you as anti-growth, anti-improvement, anti-everything and that if you applaud the arrival of outdoor industry companies, you're labeled as a pro-gondola freak and a supporter of everything Godfrey proposes.
I'm saying there is no forum and certainly no mayoral candidate that provides for a third position...one that welcomes the outdoor industry and actually hopes that industry will get here and look at our incredible resources with their "sustainability" hats on and say no to a stupid-ass gondola and soul-less big box retailers.
The only solution I can come up with is to support Godfrey for his aggressiveness in courting the outdoor industry while supporting a city council that squashes idiotic ideas like Wal-Mart and a gondola.
For that alternative solution and position, I have been attacked all day. Most recently by you and your bullshit meter.
Danny,
I put the idea of a recall out there as a possible way of giving a smackdown to Godfrey if he strays and the city council can't deliver. If California can do it to a governor, we could do it with a mayor. That's all. Maybe I'm not politically astute enough to understand the entire process and I wasn't suggesting that I would single-handedly be able to accomplish any such thing.
And for the love of God, show me the rational arguments that have been made against me. It's been nothing but sarcasm and name calling which has certainly lowered the level of my language. I apologize.
Congrats on smoking out Curt Geiger. I assure you I am in no way associated with Geiger or even the Godfrey campaign. Of course, you have no reason to believe that, but it's true. I have one political sign in my yard and it is for Caitlin Gochnour. I'm sorry I don't fit neatly into your categorization of things in Ogden, but I'm not alone.
As I said in another post, there is no forum and certainly no mayoral candidate that provides for a my position...one that welcomes the outdoor industry and actually hopes that industry will get here and look at our incredible resources with their "sustainability" hats on and say no to a stupid-ass gondola and soul-less big box retailers.
The only solution I can come up with is to support Godfrey for his aggressiveness in courting the outdoor industry while supporting a city council that squashes idiotic ideas like Wal-Mart and a gondola.
I don't know who Blain is, so keep guessing.
ben lomond -
Ever heard the term "common sense"?
Probably not because you evidently don't have any.
"Big words" present little problem for me, although that red herring is entirely irrelevant, since you didm't use any -- nor could you even if you'd tried -- inasmuch as there are NO "Big Words" in your entire vocabulary.
Let's see if we have your position summed up.
You hate Gondolas, and you thought it was terrible that Godfrey would try to sell the park. And you agree that the little cretin tried to fatten the wallets of his cronies, and you admit that he's immature, financially reckless and incompetent.
Other than that, you think he's just fine for another four, because he has psychotic visions... plus you're into midget worship.
That pretty much embraces it doesn't it?
That just about sums it up, eh, Ben Lomond?
What a SCHMUCK!
Why then, Bernard, is your outdoors recruitment hero planning a Wal-Mart near the commuter rail station? Surely you know this to be the case if you are indeed a member of Wayne Peterson's famed Squirrel Patrol? Do you not know that the Wal-Mart parcels are owned by Wayne Peterson and Gadi Leshem? And why would getting rid of Lying Little Matty Gondola Godfrey stop your ballyhooed "momentum"? Is it because these "outdoors industries" are getting fat from Godfrey's public trough and many of these subsidies (onion-reeking Descente warehouse, for instance) might dry up if the teeny liar is ousted? And do you in fact like Zingers and onions? Is THE SKI really BEAUTIFUL BLUE?
This will probably come as bad news for the poor misguided Ben Lomond.
Unlike more progressive states in the USA, Utah has no "recall" provisions for elected Utah public officials, unless they are convicted of crimes.
I wonder what Governor Huntsman had been drinking before he made the statement about Ogden being the coolest town in the coolest state?
Maybe he was trying to make himself feel good about all the RDA money he has given to Ogden.
For Huntsman's information I have lived in Ogden forever but I am afraid to go downtown at night alone these days.
"Utah has no "recall" provisions for elected Utah public officials..."
I think Bernie, er... I mean Ben Lomond already knew that.
These are the types of slimy characters around whom Godfrey surrounds himself.
Furthermore, Bernalldegeigstoryblodgett, if you visit this forum once a week because of your gondola disdain, you know damn good and well how your Lying Little Matty Gondola Godfrey cheerleading is going to be received, so quit crying. Also, your righteous indignation and your tell-tale gondola-freakisms are all too transparent. And, again, you are wasting your time. No one who reads this site is going to suddenly peruse your childish, poorly written and sophomoric rantings and come away with your intended revelation: "We can't stop the momentum! We can vote for Godfrey because we love outdoors companies, even if we hate gondolas!" Your initial post is culled straight from the script provided to every soldier at every meeting of Wayne Peterson's famed Squirrel Patrol. In fact, it was also regurgitated by Gondola Boy Mike Dowse, jackass!, in today's Trib piece about the American Can building.
THE SKI IS BEAUTIFUL BLUE
The comments on this thread have been, for the most part rather juvenile (with a few exceptions).
Ogden has faced and is still facing some serious issues and has to make some decisions about its future. Name calling and personal attacks on fellow bloggers and city employees is not helpful.
Please, please, please....let's discuss the very important issues, and perhaps offer ideas about solutions to the problems of crime, economic development, transportation that would make a real difference to ALL the citizens of Ogden.
And note that I suggested discussing the issues rather than the personalities. Such discussion could lead to the election of people who could and hopefully will make a positive difference in our city.
Respectfully,
Cassandra
Okay guys, enough of the attacks. Can anyone give me a better alternative for someone who wants outdoor industry companies to keep coming here, but doesn't want a gondola or a Wal-Mart downtown?
I'm asking in all sincerity. Nothing personal against Ms. Van Hooser, but retired second grade teachers who are glad to have "Goodie Skis" in town don't exactly bolster my confidence when it comes to that goal.
I want city government cleaned up and to be more transparent and would hope that a more aggressive city council could help provide that.
I'm creeped out by the likes of Curt Geiger, Scott Brown and Stuart Reid. I was being sincere this morning when I posted that until last night I have remained in the undecided category.
Someone PLEASE give me an alternative that keeps aggressively pursuing an industry that I'm passionate about and believe will help Ogden economically, environmentally, aesthetically, etc. while shutting down idiotic ideas like urban gondolas and coming up with more creative economic stimulators than another freaking Wal-Mart in what I feel is one of the most diverse and eclectic cities anywhere.
My idea is Lying Little Matty chasing the outdoor industry while a bold city council listens to people like me and squashes gondolas and Wal-Marts.
I'm open to sincere suggestions. Something besides, "oust the lying little bastard." Tell me what Van Hooser has planned, because beyond the platitude of "soulful, open, unified leadership," I'm getting nothing.
Outdoor Industry Companies aren't the only companies that need to be lured to Ogden.
I think Van Hooser will surround herself with experts, and roll out the red carpet for job-providing companies like this.
This is another one, by the way, that was lured here by Governor Huntsman's GOED. Godfrey had little or nothing to do with it, although I'm sure he'll take another bow over this, when the Standard gets around to reporting the story.
The Standard is once again scooped by Weber County Forum's readers.
I don't know whether Hershey is part of the ski industry, but I'll assure you all I always carry a Hershey bar in the pocket of my parka, or powder suit, on each and every Snow Basin powder day.
Do you own a home and have voting rights in OTown, Bennardo? Do you know how municipal government is supposed to function, how its chief elected official should behave, and what services it is supposed to provide to the residents who pay for such necessities? Or do you think city officials are supposed to expend all their resources in recruiting outdoor companies and acting as carnival barkers for crooked land deals? And again with the "Goodie." Is that all you have as a famed Squirrel Patrol? Tell me you have something more. Tell me about these "global entities" you first referenced. I would be prone to mispronouncing Goode myself because it's a rinky-dink outfit no one has heard of. Even my pals who work in the "outdoors industry" in the Big City. I do know how to pronounce it because I listen to Lying Little Matty Gondola Godfrey lie to me on many occasions and in many venues. He's a liar and an abuser of the public he is supposed to serve. So you will never sway an intelligent and educated vote his way, onion boy.
Powder Pig,
Can we get the whole ordinance regarding the emission of odors lifted? I know it was put in place because of the smells emitted by the dog food factory, but I wouldn't mind Ogden smelling like Willy Wonka's town.
And, of course, Godfrey will take a bow on this. He's a politician. That's what they do. I happen to know a lot of people who have been instrumental in getting outdoor industry companies here but who weren't standing on the stage with Dowse and the Governor last night. I don't think you can expect ANY politician not to bow at any chance they get.
I'm not a plain old Hershey bar kind of guy, but I'll throw some Reese's Peanutbutter Cups in my jacket on a powder day as well. And it's not a Descente jacket. Told you I'm not a Geiger fan.
Ogden is not Cool nor is Ogden Sexy, Ogden has many problems starting with the Mayor, and his lack of forthright info and dealings with the Council. He has devided this community for the past eight years, he preached about anyone who did not agree with him as naysayers and cavedwellers.
Matt is not a people person.
We need some one to bring Honest open government back and heal the division that the last eight years has brought us. We need to value everyones opinions, and respect them for having them.
We do not need four more years of the hate and division that Godfrey has brought upon us.
Come on jason,
I step away from the name-calling and sincerely ask for input and I get "Squirrel Patrol" and "onion boy." How predictable.
Yes, I own a home in Ogden. Yes I have voting rights. I know how municipal government is supposed to function, how officials should behave, etc.
Neither your ignorance nor that of your pals in regard to Goode robs that company of its relevance. Roosters is a rinky-dink brewpub, Watson Chevrolet is a rinky-dink car dealer, WSU is a rinky-dink university, but inches make miles and "rinky-dink" organizations make a community.
Give me your vision of Ogden once the lying little bastard is gone. Or is that as far as you've planned? If we're just a bunch of rinky-dink businesses in a rinky-dink town, what's wrong with having a rinky-dink mayor?
There you go again, Ben Lomond. I don't recall anybody ever say that any of the companies you mentioned, except for Goode, was "rinky-dink."
Goode IS rinky-dink, of course, unlike the others you mention.
Once again we get "straw man" rhetoric from you.
What hogwash.
Sad, very sad.
Bill C....what does asking you a question have to do with being dishonest, unethical or lacking in integrity? Goodness, boy, it was only a simple question I asked. I'm just wondering how it is you seem to KNOW so much. I also wonder what your contribution to Ogden, other than these "flame posts," is or has been? Or do you just sit around and complain?
Yeah, you're probably right. Goode is only the world's largest manufacturer of composite ski poles and only about 800 of the 1000 competitors at the US Waterski National Championships ski on Goode waterskis. Sounds pretty rinky-dink to me.
My point with the other oganizations I mentioned was in a comparative way. Comparatively speaking, Roosters is a small brewpub, there are certainly bigger car dealerships than Watson and we all know that WSU is a small university.
The point I was trying to make is that even if Goode WERE rinky-dink, why insult the company? They're a significant contribution to our community. I know that Godfrey mentions them as part of his success story pitch and that all things Godfrey must be impugned on this forum, but come on! Grow up!
Funny stuff.
I think what is going on here is that after that debate all of these fine folks who drank the Van Hooser kool-aid find themselves embarrassed and rightly so. They know that the swing voters like Ben Lomond are going to swing against her because she says things like "if you feel unsafe you probably are," "i would vote for Godfrey cause he sounds so good" and over all seems more out of out of touch than you would expect a council member to be. The more she speaks the more I see people leaving her camp.
Then add the facts that if you went to the Junction today, it was extremely busy and Ogden is becoming the cool city that the Gov. referenced. And people who hate Godfrey can't stand it.
As someone posted after the debate, you put your efforts behind the wrong horse. You should have listened to the candidate prior to the primary and putting a sign in your yard.
Oh yeah, not I'm not a Gieger or a gondola fan nor do I feel unsafe when I walk across the city from the East Bench to 25th Street or go downtown at night.
Huntsman doesn't like Godfrey either. Ya'll ought to hear what the Governor says about Godfrey in private.
to flavors: the kool-aid that i drank for the next mayor Van Hooser was made up by your little friend matty. it took 8 years to make it and as you know it tastes like shit. so i guess we both have our tastes. i for one am sick of his brand of bullshit. i need a new flavor with less b.s. and more honesty
Curious:
In re: the Ogden-Weber Chamber of Commerce, you asked if it got public money. Most of its funds comes from membership dues. But I think the City of Ogden pays about 5K a year for several memberships for city officials.
The problem with that is [and it will be problem for a Van Hooser administration too] is that it puts the city in the position of paying dues for its officials to belong to an organization that frequently lobbies the city and those same officials.
I don't know if the Chamber chambers are being turned over to the Godfrey campaign or not. But I do know Mr. Hardman has stated that the Chamber does not endorse candidates. He said that, trying to establish how unbiased his group would be hosting Ms. Van Hooser in a debate. Of course, he then expressed his organization's lack of bias by writing an op ed piece for the SE, as the Chambers President and CEO, attacking Van Hooser. Go figure.
Little escapades like that are why some of us treat Chamber bleating that it is unaligned and impartial with just a tad of skepticism.
Some interesting things have been said today, so i thought I might chime in, I recently transferred to Ken Garff and had not spent a great deal of time in riverdale in the past year. It brought back memories, of great days of shopping in Ogden, I feel that focus can be on an outdoor recreation spot, but with a great deal of lattitude, people shop riverdale because it has a great deal to offer, and those new stores look awesome, you could walk from one to another, feel safe and secure and shop till you drop, Ogden just has a wind tunnel, no shopping, just crime. I myself as well as my brother in law lost our businesses in Ogden three years ago, we just couldnt support ourselves. I truly hope the vision ends for now with outdoor this and that, and begins with bringing the small business owner back. Just a thought.
The funniest thing is that on tues. We will see some jail doors open and then Godfrey will have a sleep over with bubba. The law is catching up to him and this is what is called JUSTICE.
As I remember is that Neil Hansen was the best thing in this town and there are alot of people that blew it just by getting Susie in the race. I wonder was she recruited just to screw up things so Godfrey could win again, just like Jesse did 4 years ago. If this is the reason then none of you have anyone to blame but yourself, for you have wrought this whole thing. I for one can sit back and say SEE I TOLD YOU SO.
Ben Lomond,
I think the myth you are operating under is that Godfrey is the economic savior of Ogden. The fact is that there are many many other people that deserve credit for the current momentum that Godfrey is claiming sole responsibility for. And, aside from one bad debate (probably her first debate ever might I add), Van Hooser, is just as equally capable of continuing that economic momentum by hiring/appointing qualified people within the city, and working with rather than against the city council and other government entities to build consensus and move us forward.
Yes Godfrey deserves credit for the good ideas he's had. Unfortunately for every good idea he comes up with, he also proposes at least two very bad ideas. The problem is that he is never willing to admit that he's had a bad idea (until he only receives 40% of the vote in a primary that is). I've witnessed first hand how Godfrey tries to completely bypass the public process to enact his bad ideas. Our city cannot take four more years of this cloak & dagger behavior.
Might I also point out that Godfrey was little more than a college graduate when he was elected. The only difference between Godfrey and VanHooser is that VH has had a lifetime of experience learning how to work with people rather than just argue with them (as arguing is Godfrey's only true talent). Van Hooser will learn the government ropes quickly, and Ogden will continue to progress - only the progression will be even better because the whole public will be included (even invited to participate)! Under the leadership of VanHooser intelligent people like you and me will be able to work together to shape the future of Ogden – instead of being shut out from the process as we have been for the last 8 years!
Whew! I'm exhausted just from skimming this thread.
Thanks for the compliments, not, Ben Lomond, and danny.
Ben, I appreciate your explanations and I don't have time to respond in much detail. I do have a few honest questions for you:
1. Do you really think the outdoor industry, with ony a few hundred jobs here, is becoming the driving force of Ogden's economy? Step back and look at the city as a whole (not just the parts Godfrey is pointing at), and think about whether the comparison to the railroad is really a fair one.
2. Aren't the outdoor companies coming here because of the mountains, rivers, trails, ski areas, and affordable housing? How much difference do you think the mayor really makes?
3. Do you really think businesses and government partners would rather deal with Godfrey than Van Hooser?
Godfrey operates through intimidation and bullying. Sometimes it works, but often it doesn't. He has many, many enemies, including a lot of the people who went to yesterday's Amer party with smiles on their faces. Sure, he accomplishes some things this way. But I'm convinced that a mayor who can actually get along with people will accomplish a lot more.
Getting back to the original topic of this thread...
Curm, I think you've missed part of what happened with the erroneous newspaper article. Based on what Howell said in today's paper and a conversation I had with a City Council member, it's my understanding that Schwebke had the same version of the resolution itself ("Now, therefore,...") as what the Council passed. The only thing that was changed at the last minute was the heading at the top of the resolution. In other words, Schwebke apparently read only the headline and didn't bother to read the text of the resolution. It was really a major blunder on his part. Howell, understandably, didn't emphasize this aspect because it doesn't look good to publicly embarass a subordinate.
curmudgeon,
You say that Mr. Hardman of the Chamber says they do not endorse candidates.
Interesting because I have in my hand an e-mail from Jessica@votematthew.com saying that if you want Mayor Godfrey re-elected that she needs your help putting up signs and sending letters to the editor, etc. and to come help.
You are are invited by Jessica Fawson of THE PEOPLE TO RE-ELECT MAYOR MATTHEW GODFREY to come to their office at 2484 Washington Blvd. 6th Floor beginning Tuesday at 5:30 p.m. and Thursday and Saturday beginning at 11:00 a.m. to get Mayor Godfrey re-elected.
From what I have been told on this Blog today that is the address of the Ogden-Weber Chamber of Commerce.
I wonder if the whole Chamber gave their permission for this to happen or maybe it was just the Board or maybe it was just Mr. Hardman.
If I were a member I would not be at all happy with this arrangement. I would be pulling my membership in this august body.
Ben:
Ah, Ben, when you dismiss Ms. Van Hooser as a "retired 2nd grade teacher," you start to sound like you deserve some of the poo the poo flingers are tossing your way. Ms. Van Hooser's vita involves substantially more than that. She is on the Council, for one thing. She served as member and chair of the City Landmarks Commission. She was a board member and Veep of the Weber County Heritage Foundation. And worked for the Crossroads of the West National Historic District. And she was on the
Ogden City Neighborhood Stability Committee.
Many of those jobs involved urban improvement, development and restoration. All of them require skills as a consensus builder and leader to do well. The notion that Ms. Van Hooser brings nothing to the table but memories of elementary school teaching is flatly false.
And as other have noted, our current Mayor, when he won the job the first time, had brief experience as an inner city rental homes manager [or as some here prefer to put it, "slum lord"]. Ms. Van Hooser has far far more real-world experience than the Mayor did when he took office.
It is true of most Mayors... maybe excepting Rocky Anderson... that much of the expertise of their tenures comes from the men and women they appoint to key positions, and from their ability to manage successfully a herd of raging egos with much expertise and many many ideas --- some good, some not --- in such a way as to cull out the best of those ideas, and build coalitions within the city, and with the Council, to make them happen. I have no reason to think Ms. Van Hooser will be any less successful in doing that than the Mayor has been. And I think there is some evidence to suggest she will be better at it.
When you are as dismissive as you were above... "a retired 2nd grade teacher"... you slide toward the dismissive unreason you [often rightly] complain about in others here. You just do it a little more politely. You think the Mayor is the wisest choice, fine. But offer more grounds, please, better arguments than to dismiss his opponent as merely a retired second grade teacher. She has much more experience in Ogden covering many years than merely that.
Dan:
There seems to be a disagreement about what Mr.Schsebke had in hand, and what he didn't. From my POV, regardless, the responsibility for the screwup still lies with the editors who printed a story that, on its face, did not add up, that as Howell put it, had major holes in it, the most important being why in the world would the Mayor oppose a resolution endorsing the transportation tax which he favored? That's so, regardless of which copy of the resolution, which wording, Schwebke had, it's the editors who dropped the ball. They forget what ought to be one of the golden rules of Journalism 101: it's more important to get it right than to get it fast.
Urbanite and Dan S.,
Thank you, thank you, thank you for engaging in civil discussion with me. I've been desperate for it all day long. While others have only tried to enflame me with name calling and irrationality and make idiotic guesses as to my identity, I am absolutely sincere in my comments.
I've stood as an "undecided" for a long time. Perhaps I have been premature in my decision and perhaps it was the circumstance of having watched the WSU debate, which I think everyone agrees didn't go well for Van Hooser, then attending the Amer ribbon cutting on the heels of that viewing. I was one of those with a smile on my face that was less than genuine. I wouldn't go so far as to say I'm a Godfrey enemy, but I'm far from a Godrey friend. However, there was a definite energy there and I was awestruck by the improvements to the American Can Building. Perhaps that emotion prematurely fueled my post this morning.
Dan, in all honesty, I DO think that the outdoor industry is becoming a significant economic engine here. And I believe that is more than simply the few hundred jobs it has already created. I believe it will create more jobs directly related to the industry as more companies arrive, but I also believe that it will attract a group of people that may never actually work in "the industry." I think identification of Ogden as a significant player in the outdoor industry with an abundance of recreational opportunities right out the door will attract skilled labor, professionals and entrepreneurs who may work for Petersen, Autoliv McKay-Dee or whatever from 9 to 5 just so they can live the outdoor lifestyle after work and on weekends.
That's why I think the comparison to the railroad is valid. While the railroad was the economic engine in Ogden for a generation, I would say that relatively few were actually EMPLOYED by the railroad. But railroad workers needed places to eat and drink and shop. They need cleaners, carpenters, teachers and entertainment. That's the effect I believe the outdoor industry could have. Ski designers and mountain bike assemblers need the same things.
Ogden desperately needs an identity beyond "an old railroad town." Even if not for such idealistic things as tourism or relocation, we need it for our own self esteem. How can ANY Ogdenite not be proud that their town beat out cities like Seattle, Portland, Salt Lake City and Park City in courting Amer? A couple of hundred jobs is nothing to sneeze at in a town with Ogden's recent history.
Not to beat a dead horse, but the basic values of much of outdoor industry is what intrigues me as well. Of course we need more than one type of industry here, but with an identifiable and vocal industry like the outdoor industry here, we have fierce advocates for sustainability, better mass transit, etc.
Dan, your second point is thought provoking. As Urbanite also said, I know the mayor takes credit for a lot of things that are completely out of his control. That's what politicians do and because I expect it, I don't get to upset by it. I guess I'm just desperate to hear that Van Hooser values some of the positive moves that have occurred and has a plan to contine them. All of the "who-the-hell-cares-just-oust-the-lying-bastard" comments on this forum seem terribly short sighted to me.
I need to hear Van Hooser's viewpoint. Does she value Amer, Goode and others or does she agree with her supporters on this forum that Mike Dowse is a scum sucking S.O.B. and that Goode is a rinky-dink company?
Believe me, I know Godfrey's tactics. I've been belittled by his goons like Scott Brown and ignored by Stuart Reid. But those guys are starting to fade away. I'm not here to bang the Godfrey drum. I finally posted here because, as I said, I hold a viewpoint that isn't represented by either mayoral candidate and I guarantee you I'm not alone. That's not straw-man rhetoric. That is the conversation I have with colleagues, friends, clients and neighbors on a daily basis.
I knew what I was posting was an unpopular viewpoint on this forum, but I floated it anyway. What posters like danny and jason w. have done is drive me further from supporting Van Hooser. The irony of having Van Hooser supporters rely on NOTHING but bullying, intimidation and name calling while deriding the mayor for the same tactics is laughble.
Ben Lomond
Seems like you been shootin fish in the barrel most of the day! Aren't you getting a little bored? You appear to be miles ahead of most of your debate opponents herein.
Regardless of who you are, you seem to be pretty rational, and what you are advocating makes a lot of sense.
I don't agree with you on Godfrey, I think he is a certifiable sociopath that should be in prison. As I said earlier, Ogden would be much better off at this point in time with an inexperienced school teacher as mayor than with an arrogant criminal like we have now.
It is not the new ski companies in town that is the problem. It is the lack of integrity demonstrated by Godfrey that is really important and should be grounds to get him the hell out of office.
I think that if Van Hooser is elected it will make very little difference to the ski companies that are here or the ones that might be considering coming.
I, like you, hope that if Godfrey is re-elected that the council race pans out like you advocate to bring a little balance. If we must have him in office, it would be our only salvation to have a strong council that will stand up to him.
I think it would be better the other way around than what you advocate. That is Van Hooser as mayor and these alleged Godfreyites as council members. Might be better for the town to have a mayor with integrity, and hopefully a good and savvy CAO, and a NeoCon dominated council - than visa versa. After all, the mayor is in a dominate position with our form of government - although it aint supposed to be that way.
Hope you keep posting here, you have provoked some good discussion as well as stirring up the Ubangise and lunatic fringe that inhabit these pages.
How about that Iron Horse game the other day!
Curm,
You're absolutely right about about my dismissive comments regarding Ms. Van Hooser. Absolutely uncalled for and I meant no disrespect for teachers in general or Ms. Van Hooser specifically. Probably fueled by the frustration of not really knowing much more about her. Please accept my apology. But I've never heard the vast majority of Ms. Van Hooser's CV until you just posted it.
James Carville won the White House for Clinton because he understood the basic premise that whoever defines the debate, wins the debate...hence Clinton's famous "it's the economy, stupid" approach.
Godfrey has effectively defined the debate as "it's the economic benefit of business relocation and making Ogden an outdoor hub, stupid."
Van Hooser has religiously stuck to her talking points about "sensible, open, unified leadership." And while she may never be able to win Godfrey's debate on the terms he has defined, there is a significant group similar to me that needs to hear at least SOME viewpoint on that front.
Honesty, integrity, transparency, crime, infrastructure, transit. All valid issues and Van Hooser wins on virtually all of them. But as long as Godfrey keeps the debate centered on one of the most visible, and frankly, most exciting things Ogden has seen in a generation — the attraction of big hitters in the outdoor industry — Van Hooser will struggle. Especially when she mispronounces the names of those companies.
Even if her strategy isn't as strong as Godfrey's on the subject, I think she needs to have SOME strategy and get it out there.
"Seems like you been shootin fish in the barrel most of the day! Aren't you getting a little bored? You appear to be miles ahead of most of your debate opponents herein.
Regardless of who you are, you seem to be pretty rational, and what you are advocating makes a lot of sense."
Good job, Ozboy! Stroke his ego and then reel him right in!
So far Ben's had his ass handed to him, despite what you so cunningly say.
Nevertheless I think it would be useful if Ben would stick around, and continue to participate in our ongoing board discussions.
I find it impossible that anyone who's fully aware of Godfrey's ethical and moral depravity could still be "sitting on the fence."
Notwithstanding that little problem of "situational unawareness," at least the poor kid keeps swinging.
I can't even imagine the lack of sophistication of someone who would base their voting decision on a single debate, and/or attendance at a Amer Soiree.
That's what we're dealing with in "undecided swing voters though; so I say, "Welcome aboard, Ben!"
Ben
You are pretty far off the mark on the railroad thing. It was the engine that literally built Ogden and was the main stay here for more than five generations, not one like you wrote. Also it was the biggest and only large employer in town with many thousands of employees and billions of dollars circulating through town economy over those years. There is no way that this "ski town" concept will ever be able to come close to matching that. The ski company thing is OK, but it ain't the railroad and will never come close to achieving what the RR did. The RR comparison was never anything more than Godfrey's disingenuous attempt to pump up the idea. That is why natives of Ogden get such a laugh out of his comparisons.
By the way, my dad worked for the railroad as did several uncles, and about half the kids in school were from railroad families. Hell, I even worked switching in the Ogden yards when I was a student at Weber College back a century or so ago.
I agree with Dan about the minor impact of the ski companies on Ogden's economy. That doesn't mean I am against them being here, I'm not, I'm glad to see them come. However, they are a very small part of the local economy, they collectively do not provide even a small fraction of the total jobs in Ogden and it is extremely unlikely that they ever will.
And althepal pulls a Scott Brown move and pushes me even further away with his demeaning post.
Why can't you figure out that approaches like Ozboy, Dan S, Curm and Urbanite are what will draw support to Van Hooser? It is their posts that I log on to read every day in the hope of making a more informed decision. I'm completely familiar with the same tired oust-the-bastard rants and unoriginal Godfrey-supporters-are-morons posts.
Why is rational discussion so completely out of the question for you? Posts like yours, danny's and jason w's lead me to believe you avoid rational discussion because rationality doesn't exist in the Van Hooser camp.
Do you honestly believe I'm going to show up at the polls in support of Van Hooser when people like you say idiotic things like I've "had my ass handed to me" and that I'm a "poor kid who keeps swinging" and that I have a lack of sophistication, etc.?
Do yourself and Van Hooser a favor and leave it to the more civil among you. I'm happy to provide you with a bit of entertainment, but it's killing your cause. Honest to God, I've given this ridiculous forum the better part of a Saturday because I am desperate to hear the rational arguments on a couple of issues that I haven't heard from the Van Hooser side and my hope is growing pretty thin.
Ben:
You wrote: Even if her strategy isn't as strong as Godfrey's on the subject [economic development], I think she needs to have SOME strategy and get it out there.
Yeah, probably so. I know for some, simply her being "not Godfrey" is enough.I doubt that's enough to win. She needs to offer more than just "not Godfrey" though that is an important element of her appeal to many voters. I know she has support in the business community, but I also know that some of that support is flying under the radar because city cooperation is important to the businesses involved. I know, I know, it's not very satisfying for an advocate of a candidate to insist, without providing evidence, that there's more there than can be told. I'd be skeptical of claims like that from the other side. And have been.
Dan's got a point about the mountains, rivers, ski slopes being what has drawn the outdoors mfgrs to Ogden, and they will be there if Godfrey "returns to the private sector" as they say. But they were also there before Godfrey took office. I think he gets a lot of the credit [not all, but a lot of it] for marketing Ogden successfully to them as a good place to locate their businesses. I don't think Mr. Dowse, who is actively pitching Ogden to other sports organizations and businesses, is likely to stop on the inauguration of a new mayor. He has an interest in expanding Ogden as a sports business and sports tourism base regardless of who is mayor.
But some people on the fence do need a clear idea of what Ms. Van Hooser will do in office. One question I've asked of candidates from the floor at public meetings sometimes is this: "If you are elected, what will be different in your first ninety days in office than it would have been if your opponent wins?" You get some interesting answers sometimes. [Though more often, you just get the usual recycled boilerplate talking points.]
What would Van Hooser do in her first 90 days in office that Matt Godfrey wouldn't? In terms of public policy? Good questions.
Ozboy,
Again, for me it's more than just the jobs directly supplied by the outdoor industry. Patagonia is one company in Ventura, California, and hardly it's largest, but its vocal and activist nature has had more positive impact on Ventura's approach to issues than any other single business. Transit, walkable communities, environmental clean-up, restoration of blighted buildings, etc...the things I think we want to see in Ogden. That's what I think the outdoor industry could do here.
I think the kind of people attracted by that industry are what Ogden needs. They're the kind of people who will buy up the kick-ass bungalows between Washington and Harrison and return them to their greatness rather than building McMansions on the foothills. They're the kind of people who will demand walkable communities like 9th and 9th in Salt Lake or LoDo in Denver.
I know we're never going to see a return to the RR days in Ogden. No industry that I can conceive will ever have that impact again.
I honestly don't care who the mayor is that pursues such an agenda. I simply see that steps have been taken and momentum is being generated. All I'm asking is whether Van Hooser recognizes it, respects it, wants to continue it.
Someone please tell me that her platform is more than "I'll do everything the opposite of Godfrey." There are plenty of areas I'd like to see the opposite of Godfrey. This just doesn't happen to be one of them.
"...some of that support is flying under the radar because city cooperation is important to the businesses involved. I know, I know, it's not very satisfying for an advocate of a candidate to insist, without providing evidence, that there's more there than can be told."
Curm,
I trust your statement. I happen to be a downtown business owner who flies under the radar you speak of.
Frankly, the reason I've given today to my pursuit of Van Hooser's standing on this issue is that it matters to me and I'm sickened at the thought of being forced to vote for the lesser of two evils in November, rather than a stand-out candidate.
I want Van Hooser to step up and say something beyond the "S.O.U.L." soundbyte all the time. Especially in regard to this issue. I have skin in this game and I want to know if it's even a blip on her screen.
It's been a long day. This wasn't what I intended my day to consist of. To those of you who have treated me civilly and discussed things with me rationally, I thank you and will introduce myself when we meet in person. To the rest of you, namaste. I hope you find peace one way or another upon waking November 7. I'll likely lurk back, but I'm done subjecting myself to the ugliness that lives here.
I know, I know..."good riddance gondola-freak, onion boy, Squirrel Patrol (whatever the hell that means), Bobby, Geiger/Godfrey midget worshipper, etc., etc, ad nauseum."
It's been a long day. This wasn't what I intended my day to consist of. To those of you who have treated me civilly and discussed things with me rationally, I thank you and will introduce myself when we meet in person. To the rest of you, namaste. I hope you find peace one way or another upon waking November 7. I'll likely lurk back, but I'm done subjecting myself to the ugliness that lives here.
I know, I know..."good riddance gondola-freak, onion boy, Squirrel Patrol (whatever the hell that means), Bobby, Geiger/Godfrey midget worshipper, etc., etc, ad nauseum."
I get it.
Wow, bad weather must have really had an effect on some of you.
Rudi, your blog must truely be hurtin' um. Some have stayed all day, trying to massage the content.
Mr. Ben Lomand,(and I know you chose that name to incite some of us, but football at OHS bottomed out in the early 70's, chalk it up to demographics. BL hasn't faired any better.) All your rational plays into the theory that Ogden's collective self esteem is so low that lying little matty's "high adventure outdoor recreation" myth has sufficiently stroked your ego enough to overlook his terrible record of the last 7+ years. For the record, lifelong residents of Ogden don't suffer any collective lack of self esteem, we've always known whats here, good and bad, we love this place. I don't want to sound like some old timer dissin the immigrants, but, just where do you think all this opposition to lying little matty is coming from? Who seems to be his most ardent supporters? Godfrey is not an Ogdenite, yes, he's an immigrant. Dowse, a very recent immigrant just disrepected all of Ogden by not inviting and thanking the City Council. He did this for lying little matty. Yes we're very upset by this.
As to this myth started 3 years ago that Ogden was "going down the toilet" a direct quote from curt (potato nose' geiger. Was never true, as any long time resident will tell you. Any real impression to that extent could be attributed directly to lying little matty's poor job performance up to that time.
Crime and other safety areas,police and fire, were treated more as a nusance by this guy, right up till a month ago.
Providing services also seemed to be an inconvenient little chore in his estimation.
These are the things we expect our mayor to be doing on the job, not imitating donald trump with future tax dollars. Clean running water, cops, firefighters, sewer, parks and recreation. These are the first priorities that he should have been paying attention to. This is where he's seriously lacking.
Now if we add to that, his continual dishonesty and lack of integrety, his disrepect of the City Council and all the other baggage you so conveniently overlooked when diciding which candidate you now support, godfrey's a loser.
Since you say you were never a gondola worshipper, you have saved me quite a few paragraphs, but his efforts in that arena should enough for disqualification by themselves.
And Fyi, neither the golf course sale or the gondola are dead. Check anally stephanson's website.(not to be confused with Adele)
One more thing, Susan Van Hooser's platform fits quite nicely with the expectations of long time Ogdenites. Emphasis on honesty.
P.S. to curious, I don't claim to know more than I know, but what I do know I've learned from intensive research,(grama's attendance at Council and planning meetings, just to name a few) you ought to try it, it don't hurt to try to be informed. As to yor question about what I've done for Ogden, probably not as much as I'd like. How bout you?
Bill C.,
Again with the "knowing" thing. People need to learn the definition of the word "know" and not use it lightly. It's a powerful word. You don't "know" why I chose the name Ben Lomond. You suspect. You theorize. And you're wrong. Truth be told, I didn't choose Ben Lomond out of some ridiculous allegiance to a rival high school and an effort to incite. I live well within OHS boundaries. It is my kids' school. I chose Ben Lomond because it is the predominant peak that looks over this community. Now accuse me of delusions of grandeur for believing myself to be above you all. I know that's how it works around here.
I chose the moniker because I feel like I've been sitting on top of Ben Lomond peak for several months now observing the comings and goings of this and other forums and trying to sort out nuggets of meaning from all of the extreme garbage that ranges from "Godfrey is a sociopath who should be locked in prison for the rest of his life" to "if you don't support a gondola, you're a naysayer and against everything." Viewpoints like that represent the ridiculous extremes of issues that desperately need rational discussion.
You don't want to sound like the old timer dissin the immigrants? Then why do you proceed to do exactly that? Don't listen to my questions or concerns and respond rationally to them. Instead, attack my character which you "know" absolutely nothing of. Dismiss me as an immigrant and foreigner. Please let me know at what point one earns the right to an opinion in Ogden.
I own a home in this city. I own a business in downtown Ogden that has created jobs here that didn't exist before. I pay my taxes. I serve on boards and committees of non-profits that contribute immensely to the community. I donate money, time and sweat to their efforts. However, according to you, I should just shut up because I'm not a "lifer." If that's the stance of the Van Hooser campaign, I'd like my tax money back upon her election. I'll gladly start paying again once I've earned my right to have an opinion.
I know the gondola issue isn't dead. It hasn't been dead since it was introduced decades ago. I'm not a "lifer," but I know my Ogden history enough to know that the gondola idea resurfaces on a consistent basis. Rationale beats in down every time. My biggest concern is that this time, rationale seems to be missing in action.
I'll try not to burden this little pot of venom anymore with my posts. Thank you for the depth of your insight.
Mr Ben Lomand,I didn't say you don't have a right to your opinion, or the option to voice it.
I just offered you a little insight, sorry about the assumsion that you were rubbing it in about the football game.
You never really responded to the real jest of my post. Folks are sick of godfrey, Ogden never was dead nor would it die without the dishonest little Sob.
What your concerns seem to be gaged on is worry that you stand to lose something personally, just what could that be? Is that so big a deal that you are willing to overlook all very real negatives that godfrey has displayed from day one? Do you see both sides acting out of fear, one real, one imagined? Please, answer these questions.
Mr. Ben Lomand, I don't recall attacking your charachter. But your final comment could be concidered highly venomous.
Bill,
Believe me, I have my issues with Godfrey and his administration. I can't truly conceive a single government entity that I don't have some sort of problem with. I told you some of his goons have looked down their nose at me because my business was only about a dozen employees. You think it doesn't kill me to watch this administration trip over itself to applaud Curt Geiger when his company employs fewer people than mine? I have serious questions about his openness which is why I advocate a city council that will take a pool cue to his knees if necessary to correct that.
However, the high adventure recreation efforts you demean as "myth" simply are not made up. You like Van Hooser's mantra about welcoming input, fresh ideas and openness? Godfrey's administration is doing that with outdoor recreation. He has formed an advisory committee dozens deep from all facets of the community and it's not just some good 'ol boys club. Anyone who desires to participate is welcome to do so.
The group has created meaningful community events like the climbing festival and the recent paddlefest. It's the group that has spearheaded simple things like real bike lanes and bike racks around town. Demean the events as little parties if you want, or their efforts as trivial, but they attract an audience that, once exposed to Ogden, become advocates for what so many on this forum seem to want. Cleaned up rivers, better trails, more open space, sustainable practices, walkable communities, etc.
Having outdoor recreation business here only strengthens those efforts with additional bodies and dollars.
THAT is my personal, vested interest in this. THAT is what I stand to lose. I've said it repeatedly here now...if anyone can assure me that this issue is on Van Hooser's radar screen, I'll listen. Again, does she believe, like her supporters on this site, that Mike Dowse is a "butt kissing S.O.B." and that Goode is a "rinky-dink" company? Or does she see the vision that so many others see that can be achieved through continued development of the outdoor industry here?
I'm not a freaking idiot. I KNOW...yes KNOW...that this election is about more than my precious little outdoor rec dream. I know where the candidates stand on a myriad of issues. I just have no clue where Van Hooser stands on this one. She doesn't seem to know the players and that scares me a bit. Of course she's a bright lady and can learn them, but is there a passion there? And how much momentum stands to be lost while she familiarizes herself with this key strategic area?
Keep telling me I'm an idiot and that the whole outdoor rec thing is mythical and meaningless. Meanwhile, I'll keep working to build it.
Mr. Ben Lomand, thank you for your response. I'm glad you acknowledged that this outdoor rec thing is personal to you, and that for most it's not the most important issue.
Lying little matty did not create one of the real amenities we Ogdenites have enjoyed and known about for our whole lifetimes. All he's done is try to exploit them.
The rocks were here the rivers and mountains, he's actually threatened to destroy more than any help help he's provided.
If these amenities are the real reason the types your so desirous of would come, what would change with his ouster? As far as the financial perks, lying little matty has no authority to grant them. As far as recruitment, I'm sure Van Hosser could find someone alot more appealing than potato nose. With him representing Ogden,(informally I hope) who know's, could be more would all ready be here.
In other words, what's there to be affraid of?
"Your silence is deafening."
Complete silence on Van Hooser's stance on this issue. Since no one can tell me otherwise, I'm left to conclude that she indeed does feel like her followers. That Mike Dowse is a "butt kissing S.O.B." and that Goode is a "rinky-dink" company and that there is no value in the development of the outdoor industry in Ogden.
Who, then, IS welcome here?
While I don't agree with Ben, I do applaud his mostly reasoned approach to discussing the issues.
Whether he is right or wrong, his method of debate is always more effective than the bombastic aggressive approach that so many of us here on the WCF love to engage in. Yes, I did say "us", as I have frequently participated in and enjoyed manning the old flame thrower myself since the beginning of this site. And boy O boy do the Godfreyites give us a lot of moving targets!
In defense of that, and other flamers on this site, I would like to say that it is an interesting form of fun, another form of contact sport if you will. Even better than violent video games for some. It is stylized combat for us that are past the age of duking it out in the parking lot behind OHS. In the final analysis it is a rather harmless exercise and the targets are almost always politicians, their sycophants and other pretentious power brokers - especially disingenuous ones, who are all absolutely fair game if you ask me.
In my opinion if it ain't fun you shouldn't be messing with it anyway unless it has to do with the well being of you, your family or your community. So Ben, I do hope you have enjoyed these many little bouts of jousting that you have engaged in today. After all, this blog is just another and newer form of entertainment. Let's face it, there are a hell of a lot more people watching Pro Wrestling than are watching General Conference!
Incidentally, you were able to both flame me and compliment me within a very short time on this blog! Fun ain't it?
The "flame" was your castigation of my line about Godfrey being a sociopath that ought to be in prison. Yep, that was mine, and it is exactly how I feel about Godfrey after observing him for a few years. He does seem to meet all the criteria established by the big league shrinks when it comes to what defines a sociopath. He also matches the criteria established for a closely related disorder known as Narcissism. Look it up and then consider Godfrey's personality traits and you will we what I mean.
In my book these personality disorders should be enough to dis-elect him, or anyone else for that matter. If that makes me a member of the "any body but Godfrey" crowd, then I guess I'm guilty. Well, maybe only partially guilty as I guess Godfrey would be better than say Filliaga or the real scary one named Greiner!
The biggest tragedy of all in this election, if you ask me, and yes, I know you didn't, is that no real strong and capable candidate emerged to challenge Godfrey. However, I do believe from the little I know about Van Hooser that she is an honorable and intelligent person and that if she wins she will do a lot to bring integrity and openes back into the Ogden city mayor's office, something that is sorely needed. I do agree with you, I wish she would come out and really tell us what she stands for and what she will do on the important things if elected.
Ben {
You wrote: He has formed an advisory committee dozens deep from all facets of the community and it's not just some good 'ol boys club. Anyone who desires to participate is welcome to do so. The group has created meaningful community events like the climbing festival and the recent paddlefest. It's the group that has spearheaded simple things like real bike lanes and bike racks around town. Demean the events as little parties if you want, or their efforts as trivial, but they attract an audience that, once exposed to Ogden, become advocates for what so many on this forum seem to want.
Right on the money. One of the most frustrating things about some posts on WCF is the apparent need some feel to denounce and undermine every initiative that comes from the Godfrey administration. He's had some good ones. Some good things have happened. The XTERRA events for example. And others. While I'll be among the first to criticize what I think are bad ideas and actions from city hall, to keep any credibility as a critic, seems to me, requires at the same time applauding what City Hall does that is right, or that is a good idea. Your point as noted above, then, I think is right on the money.
Ben,
I'd love to respond to many of your points but I'm just too busy right now. You said you'd introduce yourself in person sometime. Why not give me a call? I'm in the phone book and my office number is on my professional home page. Just google me.
Also, it sounds like you haven't read Van Hooser's latest campaign brochure or looked at her web site. The web site is at www.susieformayor.com.
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