By Dorothy Littrell
You have an opportunity to help reclaim our right to vote on two very expensive and important bills that have been signed into law without voter input.
The Soccer Stadium petition is now in Ogden at Ye Olde Salt Bike Shop, 105 25th Street, Ogden, to sign to bring the Soccer Stadium in Sandy before Utah taxpayers for their vote on the issue..
This is not just a Sandy issue because all Utahns will be paying for this stadium that Salt Lake County Mayor Peter Coroon and his financial experts determined was not financially viable. And we all heard that Governor Huntsman's wife decided that we needed the stadium.
Also, if you want an opportunity to get to vote on the School Voucher law that Huntsman just signed into law you can get information online at www.utahnsforpublicschools.org.
There is a deadline on both these petitions so if you want to claim your right to vote on these issues please sign a petition immediately.
Whether you are for against either of these bills that Governor Huntsman signed into law the real issue is that our right to vote as taxpayers has been taken from us and this is a demand to have that constitutional right returned.
It is most disheartening to have to petition Utah Governor Huntsman for that right to be to be returned.
Thanks for your help!
-Dorothy Littrell
Update 3/17/07 4:15 p.m. MT: We have learned from one of our intrepid east bench gentle readers that Weber County lumpencitizens interested in overturning the legislature's School Voucher Law/Private School Handout can affix their signatures to the "Voucher Petition" by calling here: Deborah: 393-1379.
Please do this well prior to March 19, 2007 @ 6:00 p.m., which is the official petition deadline.
The timeline is very short!
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30 comments:
urge everyone to sign these petitions whether you are for or against School Vouchers or the Soccer Stadium.
Your position on either is not the issue.
The issue is that our constitutional right to vote on these very expensive and controversial issues was taken away from us by the last Legislature with bills that Governor Huntman signed into law.
This thinking is exactly why the Ogden RDA and all the other Redevelopment Agencies have come into being because politicans passed the RDA laws taking away citizens' constitutional right to vote on creating debts. And citizens allowed it to happen without protest.
Our laws give the RDAs authority to create debt we are obligated to pay without our having had representation or input into the process of the debt creation.
And we think we have freedom in this country.
If you want to try to regain some of your constitutional rights please go sign the petitions. And then don't forget to vote when it gets on the ballot!
Isn't the right to vote why 3 thousand plus of our soldiers have died fighting for an Iraqi's right to vote?
We take our freedoms for granted so much so that we don't even pay attention when some are taken from us.
I really doubt that enough present day Americans would have cared enough to fight to have ever won the Revolutionary War.
If I stopped the average American teenager or most Americans up to age 30 walking down the street to ask them to explain our Bill of Rights I would bet that they would look at me and giggle and go "Duh".
Or think it was a hot metal rock band.
We have proof that Americans don't give a hoot by the percentages of voters that turn out to vote in an election.
This lack of knowledge about history and what the U.S. stands for and how we got to here is the most flagrant failure in our school systems today.
What makes us believe that our form of government is going to continue to survive? It won't. It will be some form of dictatorship.
And then why will we have fought all the wars we have to gain freedom? History continues to repeat itself
The School Voucher Petition can be signed Monday-Friday, 8AM-5PM at 939 25th Street in Ogden.
There is a very short time in which to do this, so please don't procrastinate.
History quiz (history professors are exempt):
Who said
"In every state of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people."
If you guessed a citizen of Mayor Godfrey's Ogden-cum-Adventure World, you wouldn't be far wrong.
I also can't help but note with amusement the Governor's nickname during the last election cycle: Prince John.
That's why we have a First Amendment, folks, so let's go about the business of petitioning for a redress of grievances.
Is the date of March 19th right for
the School Voucher petition because that is Monday?
1. The Soccer deal: I may be wrong but I believe the only tax money being used for this scheme would be that collected in Salt Lake County only! I oppose this without reservation but I really don;t believe it is for us to sign this petition. UNLESS this is viewed as a precedent setting issue. However, I believe a judge
would rule that only those in Salt Lake County could vote on it - IF it is to be voted on at all.
2. Due to our absolutely lame public school system, I am personally in favor of the voucher system.
3. I am also well aware that no one really cares what I think.
Army:
I think you're wrong about voting on the soccer deal. The tax money [however raised] was allocated by a state law passed last session, and the petition drive, under the latest revision of the referenda laws [which the legislature designed to discourage referenda] would, if the necessary signatures are gotten over counties all across the state [as the law requires] suspend operation of the soccer stadium bill until it was put up for a state wide yea or nay vote. Same for the voucher bill.
I'm signing both, since I do not support either law. But I might well sign both even if I favord the stadium deal and voucher laws. Here's why: every, and I mean every, poll before the last election, during the last session of the legislature, and now, reports that a substantial majority of state voters do not support the voucher bill. As for the stadium deal, the duly elected government of Salt Lake County looked at it and rejected it as not in the public interest. Then the legislature [delegates from the entire state] intervened and over-rode the elected Salt Lake County government. And overrode, again every poll tells us, the wishes of a subtantial majority of Salt Lake County residents. [Polls on both the voucher and soccer matter indicate opposed majorities in SL County on the first one, and statewide on the second one somewhere north of 65%.]
The referendum process is an old Progressive reform designed to permit the people to stop legislation [or to endorse it with their votes] that representatives passed over the wishes of the public or by ignoring the wishes of the public. Utah legislators [actually, most legislators in most states] hate referenda, hate even the potential for having their power checked by popular vote. Which is why the Utah legislature recently made it much much more difficult to get a referendum on the ballot.
If I thought the soccer deal represented the will of most of the voters of SL County [or was even too close to call], I'd not sign the petition. If I thought a majority of the voters state wide supported the voucher plan [or it was too close to call], I'd not sign the voucher petition. But all the evidence we have suggests otherwise. So I'll sign both, put it up to the vote of the people and let the chips fall where they may.
You also wrote: I am also well aware that no one really cares what I think. Forgive the harshness of my judgment here, Sarge, but that's nonsense. Public forums like WCForum are popping up all over the country. The opportunities for public discussion of public affairs is expanding in ways ten years ago nobody dreamed possible. And yes, I think it matters that more people, yourself included, are getting engaged in discussion of public policy. It matters a great deal.
If you favor the voucher bill, I hope you're working your neighbors, the street you live on, whoever, to build support for your side. I'll be working the other side of the street on this one. Win or lose, the fight's worth making. For both sides.
Why do you people keep voting for Republicans? The School Voucher system and the Soccer Stadum, wouldn't be an issue. Democrats don't believe in giving your hard earned money to their rich buddies!!
Democrat:
Just one point: your phrasing "you people" suggests that everyone who posts here votes Republican most if not all of the time.
Wrong.
Curm:
Your right. But most of the people who are complaining about these important issues; are the ones who promoted the republicans, who are shelling out, our hard earned money, to their business buddies.
oh, go to church and be quiet for awhile.
This nonsense about democrats vs. republicans and who caused what to happen is a waste of our time to read about it.
It shows your lack of ability to discuss the real issues.
It is a proven fact that both parties are not responsive to their constituents.
Both parties respond only to pressure, pressure from lobbyist and donors and big business and labor unions and all the rest of the big stuff.
The little guys like us have to make our voices heard one by one at the polls which is why the politicians keep trying to keep us from voting on most important issues.
In Utah it is common practice for everyone to be registered as a Republican regardless of their real political feelings because only Republicans get elected.
Guess why? It goes back to the local neighborhood meetings where delegates are selected and those meetings are controlled by the people who turn out for them.
So who turns out for them? Usually the local Republican LDS Ward members are in the majority so their candidates are the ones elected to the Republican County Convention.
It is just practical politics in Utah and is never going to change as long as the LDS citizens are more dedicated to showing up at a neighborhood meeting than the non-LDS citizen is.
So they are going to control the
persons going to the County Convention which in turn is controlled by all the delegates from the local Wards and so on it goes.
The State Republican Convention then is made up of the people who select who is going to run for office and be elected in Utah.
The only way to change the status quo then is to get enough persons to the local neighborhood meeting to be concerned enough to change the age-old practice.
I don't think I will live that long.
Can anyone link up the article I heard was in the Standard this morning - "Mayor rebuts charges"
Was it about Godfrey?
The "Mayor rebuts charges" article is about the mayor of Farmington and a development proposal there.
Meanwhile, there's an interesting letter to the editor by Don Wilson. My favorite quote: "...our mayor has learned to distance himself from the more sordid details of political life by providing several layers of expendable underlings as insulation from the heat."
Sorry I can't provide links. The Standard-Examiner web site is extremely annoying. In the past I've been able to link to an article only by first using the site's email feature to email the link to myself. Today even that doesn't seem to be working.
Excellent letter by Don Wilson! Thank you, Don.
I liked that quote also, Dan.
Also when he noted that 'the man is "shocked" by what is happening around him', and, "Now would be a good time for the mayor to quit posturing and at least try to correct some of the problems." Also..."Right now, Ogden needs a mayor more than we need a visionary".
I thot that many readers of the SE won't get all the meaning of this excellent letter. If you think about it, the SE hasn't kept the citizenry abreast of all the problems, chicanery and machinations of this administration.
But, kudos to you, Don.
Democrats also have 'mass' meetings. Instead of griping about Republicans turning out for their's....go to your own.
Godfrey registered as a Republican because he knew dang well he could beat Garcia!!!
Now, if you anti-Godfreyite Democrats are smart, you'll keep Garcia out of this mayoral race.
A GOOD democrat is Neil Hansen....get behind him!
I think a lot of moneyed Republicans in this town are so sick of Godfrey that they will support Neil.
We've tried to tell you for years that Godfrey is no Republican, but none of us were around him when he lied as he registered as one! Do you really think Ed Allen would allow his daughter to hook up with a REPUBLICAN???!?? And produce those 'half-breed' kids?
Always the one to look for a slick way to hoodwink the folks...that's Godfrey and his family and FOM's.
So, get the word out about Neil Hansen....call him and offer your time and support.
Stop whining and go to work.
Republican for Neil:
My my my, this endless attempt by Republicans to deny that Matthew Godfrey [R-Ogden] is one of them just gets more and more amusing. Let's see, he supported the Republican-passed law re-instating cities' powers to use eminent domain to sieze private homes for the benfit of other private developers, as by the way did Sen. Greiner [R-Ogden]. Or are Republicans now going to disavow him as well? Godfrey's plans to sell the public parks for a private gated upscale vacation villa development has the enthusiastic support of the Ogden-Weber Chamber of Commerce... not known to be a particular den of rabid Democrats. And selling off the public parks to benefit a real estate developer... somehow that just seems a more Republican than Democratic thing to do.
Sorry, RforH, but Matt is yours. Signed, sealed, registered and delivered. And the idea that he had to change parties to run for mayor is nonsense. Mayoral elections in Utah are non-partisan on the ballot. Matthew Godfrey could have run without changing his regisatration, against Garcia or anyone else who chose to enter the race.
As for this advice: Now, if you anti-Godfreyite Democrats are smart, you'll keep Garcia out of this mayoral race. Well, two things need be said. First Democrats rarely take nomination and election advice from Republicans. But that aside, the party does not as a rule tell Democrats who may run for a non-partisan office and who may not. It's open to all who want to put themselves up for the slime-ing that running against Matthew Godfrey [R-Ogden] seems to involve. Mr. Garcia has not announced that he is running [nor for that matter has Matthew Godfrey], but if he chooses to run, it would be way beyond the Weber County Democratic Party's ability to prevent him from doing so.
Personally, I hope he does not. I like him where he is, on the Council. I haven't approved of every vote he's cast [I haven't agreed one hundred percent with any member of the Council, nor have I disagreed with any of them all the time either], but on balance, I think Mr. Garcia is a good person to have on the Council and I would hate to see him leave his post early. Having an independent Council which understands its important oversight function in a strong-mayor form of municipal government will be very important if Godfrey runs again and wins, or a Godfrey-clone does.
As for Rep. Hansen [D-Ogden], I'm glad he's in the race. And I note that so far he's the only person who's announced as a candidate. I liked it, good Democrat that I am, that he stood up on some important local issues, and he did it on the record. [E.g. he showed up at the press conference some of the police men involved in the famous "van sign" matter held in Mt. Ogden Park, and he went on camera in support of them]. He didn't have to. But he did. In an age when most politicians are reluctant to answer any question without taking time out to hold five focus groups, six polls and to raise a wet finger to the air to catch any late shift in public opinion, so they can determine what is is "safe" to say, elected officials who stand up on controversial matters, publically and on the record, are not to be dismissed lightly. We need many many more of them.
This matter is much on my Yellow Dog Democratic mind just now. Ms. Clinton was asked, followning General Pace's comments, if she thought homosexuality was immoral. She replied that she'd "leave that to others to decide." 48 hours later, following endless conferencing on what it would be "safe" to say, and a storm of protest from party members, she finally said "no, I don't." Too late. I am just damn tired of Democrats who walk around with that wet finger in the air, desperately trying to decide what it is safe to say rather than saying what they think is right. Sadly, Obama did the same. Hedged for 48 hours, then said "no, it's not immoral." That is not leadership. And that kind of play it safe thinking is what has cost the party the presidency and Congress for a long time.
So you will understand why politicians who stand up and say what they think when asked without closeting with pollsters first, I find pretty appealing at the moment. Especially when what they think and say is right.
Yellow Dog Curm,
I LIKE dogs...most of 'em anyway.
You and I aren't too far apart here.
Please don't send that little twit on the 9th floor to me, as I will refuse to accept delivery!
Mr. Garcia is needed right where he is , on the council...and I think he could become a really good leader this time around...he would be especially effective working with an honest mayor. Don'tcha think? I think Jesse has been used and abused by Godfrey and his gang...and Jesse has 14...going on 15 years of experience on the Council that is invaluable.
So, when I say....keep Jesse from running....it's for all OUR good!
And, Garcia will not win the votes of enough people to BE mayor and/or UNSEAT Godfrey. Ain't gonna happen.
I hope Garcia does NOT announce his candidancy and realizes that he is more effective right where he is...in tandem with a mayor of integrity who shares the 'dreams'...NOT visions...of Jesse, the rest of the Council and the folks!
We want a healthy city. We want new businesses coming here to set upo shop and sell their wares. We want new people here because of what Ogden has to offer NOW...not a silly 'vision' of a silly little man.
I'm sick of Republicans who lie, cheat, screw around, and betray the voters also, Curm.
I'm sick of Democrats who fit that mold too.
So, when you Democrats get together over a cup of coffee or whatever....encourage support of Neil...and encourage your cronies to let Garcia know he can do much good if he stays on the Council.
I think we both ( and lots of others) want clean, open, honest government, whether in Ogden or WA D.C. Right?
But, Curm, I want to offer my condolences to you now: when I saw the three 'frontrunners' for the Dems' Presidential race....well, don't drown your sorrow in too many beers and then drive. That Republican Senator/cheif cop will have someone write a ticket!
Let me post here the fine letter to the editor from my friend, Don Wilson.
Mayor should stop posturing, take the helm
Sunday, March 18, 2007
As I recall, the good citizens of Ogden were often bothered by the noxious odors that emanated from the industry on Ogden's west side. Now, it seems, the odors are even worse and they seem to be coming from the citadel of our city government on Washington Boulevard. I believe that many people in Ogden are concluding that our mayor and his administration have become a magnet for trouble and controversy.
Always the consummate politician, our mayor has learned to distance himself from the more sordid details of political life by providing several layers of expendable underlings as insulation from the heat. No question, deniability is important in political life. But, as one inevitable consequence, there is a growing perception in town that Mayor Godfrey is out of touch with the day-to-day details of running a city.
Is our city administration out of control? Certainly a growing possibility it seems.
The mayor claims he is "shocked" by what is happening around him, and no doubt he should be. However, as the man in charge (presumably), a studied air of detached innocence isn't getting the job done. Now would be a good time for the mayor to quit posturing and at least try to correct some of the problems. Why not set his "vision" aside long enough to take care of a few pressing administrative matters?
Right now, Ogden needs a mayor more than we need a visionary.
Don Wilson
Ogden
David:
All I can say of Mr. Wilson's letter is this: nicely put.
Speaking of odors emenating from City Hall, I'm surprised that no one has mentioned yesterday's SE front page story which sheds some light on the timing of Ball's March 8th memo. The story speaks for itself.
Private suit adds twist to drama
Ogden’s Martinez, Ball say $5,412 loan influenced politics
BY SCOTT SCHWEBKE
OGDEN — A city department manager and a former coworker involved in allegations of dirty politics recently fought in court to settle a business deal gone bad.
Risk Management Manager Ron Ball has been ordered to repay a $5,412 personal loan to former Human Resources Manager Dean Martinez. Ball has publicly claimed Martinez tried to pressure him into supporting City Council Chairman Jesse Garcia’s bid for mayor.
A judgment was levied against Ball on March 6 in 2nd District Court based on a complaint by Martinez. Martinez, who was fired about four months ago for what the city calls dishonesty and misappropriation of municipal documents, said Ball borrowed money from him in July 2006 for a boat and accessories, but had not attempted to repay the debt. Martinez’s termination came as a result of his taking home confidential personnel records belonging to Business Development Manager Scott Brown.
Martinez said Ball requested a formal contract be drawn up for the loan, but that he provided the money on a “handshake.” A Sept. 30 e-mail that Martinez said he received from Ball makes reference to a seemingly amicable deal. “I will start making payments to you this week,” Ball wrote. “Thanks again for the loan, mister money.”
Four days after Martinez was fired, Dec. 8, he asked in an e-mail for payment of $5,190. In a Jan. 25 e-mail, Ball offers to sell his share in the watercraft to Martinez for $500. Martinez threatened court action in an e-mail sent the same day.
Ball declined to discuss the terms of the loan, saying it’s a personal matter between him and Martinez, but he doesn’t harbor a grudge “I still like Dean,” he said Friday. “I wish him the best … in getting on with his life.”
However, Martinez isn’t as forgiving and said Ball’s refusal to repay the loan shows he’s dishonorable. On March 8, two days after the judgment against him, Ball sent a blistering e-mail to the city council claiming that Martinez, while working for the city, attempted to pressure him into supporting Garcia’s mayoral bid or face the possibility of being fired under a new administration.
Martinez believes the judgment may have played a role in prompting Ball to send the e-mail. However, Ball said the judgment had no bearing on his decision to contact the city council. He believes Martinez may have sued him because he refused to assist in a Garcia bid for mayor.
Ball claims Martinez told him Garcia had offered to make Martinez management services director if elected mayor and that he would fire several current administrators. Ball’s claim follows similar accusations from Brown that Garcia promised him the job of chief administrative officer if he helped discredit Mayor Matthew Godfrey’s administration.
Garcia, who plans to hold a news conference next week to announce whether he will run for mayor, and Martinez have denied the accusations by Brown and Ball.
Godfrey has not announced whether he will seek a third term in November.
It is certainly interesting how this unsavory web of corruption at city hall is coming unraveled. And all of these people are high managers in the Godfrey Adminstration. The Mayor's "A" team!
And what kind of boat can you buy for $5,400 including accessories? You would think an $80 grand a year guy like this Ball character would be floating a little prettier than that!
Godfrey ought to damn well be embarrased over that part of the story by itself! Well, that of course is pretty ridiculous considering the little fella has a serious embarrasment gene difficiency. But come on, his top executives are cruising around in $5 thousand dollar boats!
OL:
Thank you. I was out of town and missed that. And good work on the part of the SE, digging out and/or running with information establishing a motive for Mister Ball's allegations against Martinez. 48 hours after he loses a law suit and is ordered to pay Martinez north of 5 K his allegations appear in the paper. No connection at all, Ball insists.
Uh huh. And every Easter the Great Pumpkin visits the Most Sincere pumpkin patch in the land....
Does it seem credible that Garcia, no novice in the political arena, would retain ANY of those bozos in Godfey's administrtion?
Wouldn't he, or any new mayor, put together his own team?
Can't imagine that Garcia, IF he did run for mayor, would promise postitions to any of these cretins.
The people are sick of them. Would think that Garcia is also.
Curm: In regard to the soccer deal - the fact remains that the money to be used will be STRICTLY Salt Lake County money - therefore I fail to see how ANY other county can be involved in a vote. And do NOT mis-understand me; I do NOT think ANY tax money should EVER be used for for this purpose. As far as I am concerned, government entities at ALL levels should get out out of ANY business that competes with private enterprise. And yes, I include golf courses!
Sarge:
Well, if the legislation arranging things had come out of the SL County Commission, I'd agree with you hands down. But since it was a state law that did the arranging, the only way permitted to challenge it via referendum under in Utah is via statewide referendum.
I can agree with your libertarian leanings in many areas, but carrying them to the extreme [in my view] you do ["As far as I am concerned, government entities at ALL levels should get out out of ANY business that competes with private enterprise. And yes, I include golf courses!"] seems unreasonable to me. Private business competes with government in a variety of areas. Playing fields for softball, say. Parks. Even highways [Utah has private toll roads, for example.] Police protection [there are private security firms, etc.]. Public owned urban recreation spaces --- urban parks and playgrounds being another good Progressive era reform, right along with referenda --- seem a good idea to me. They produce a public benefit by placing recreational opportunities within the reach of the general population that might not otherwise be there. Play grounds, tennis courts, urban botanical gardens, etc.
So we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Perhaps in a perfect world, the soccer decision should be left to Utah County voters alone. But this isn't a perfect world. It's Utah.... [grin].
Curm
Utah has one toll road I believe. It is a very short one connecting Washington Terrace with South Weber.
Most of us western folks don't like the idea of paying to drive on the damn roads we paid to build and maintain.
This toll road business seems to be something dreamed up by some hustler from Brooklyn or in the Ogden Mayor's office...
Ozboy:
Not particularly a fan of toll roads, though I grew up in an area of the country with many of them. As I recall, however, in da Land of Brooklyn of my yout, the only tolls collected were for bridges and tunnels. Toll roads, by the way, were quite common [private ones] in the colonial and early national periods. And seems to me SLC's new "pay to play" access passes to the HOV lanes on I-15 constitute tolls as well.
But I was not endorsing toll roads. Merely trying to point out that there are many areas in which government "competes" with private businesses [schools and colleges for example], and using roads as one example. All this part of arguing that Sarge's absolutist libertarian position [govt should never compete with private businesses] was not, I thought, a practical position to take. That's all.
Whether we like it or not governments on all levels are in business in a very big way. It is happening all over the country in an alarming number of different and non traditional government roles.
The result very often is what you see going on in Ogden now. A hustling politician with a willing choir and no decernable business skills or talents gets control of the levers of government and proceeds to run amok with their unbridled ambition and complete imcompetence.
History is littered with failed attempts by politicians to build monuments to themselves. There are very very few great cities or communities that are the result of central planning by ambitious wienies.
But then, just ever so often, you have a unique set of ambitious politicos with grand redevelopment dreams and a very artistic society, and viola! The world ends up with Paris!!
Perhaps that could pose the question: Is it worth it to destroy a certain number of towns, like Godfrey is doing to Ogden, in the hopes that you will eventually come up with another Paris?
Or, how many brown eyed babies to we have to drown until we get one with blue eyes?
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