The Standard-Examiner features a VERY interesting story this morning, regarding a Chapter 11 filing by U.S. Mortgage, a Las Vegas company servicing a small number of Emerald City's Homeownership Loan Program mortgage loans.
OGDEN — Twenty-six homeowners participating in a first-time loan program administered by the city are being required to temporarily make mortgage payments to the Ogden Business Information Center.A Zion's Bank official official, (who was apparently contacted by Ace Reporter Schwebke for a pithy quote) offers soothing reassurance to borrowers who may be affected by this development:
BIC is accepting mortgage payments because US Mortgage, a Las Vegas loan company that services the loans for Ogden, has filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy, said Jeanne M. Harris, a senior project coordinator for the city.
After April 1, property owners enrolled in Ogden’s Homeownership Loan Program will submit mortgage payments to Amerinational Community Services, a Downey, Calif., company the city has contracted to service the loans.
Rob Brough, senior vice president of marketing for Zions Bank in Salt Lake City, said he doesn’t see any “red flags” in BIC temporarily accepting mortgage payments..Mr. Brough is no doubt right. When the smoke clears, individual borrowers have no reason for despair, so long as their own loan payments remain current.
As to the question of whether this situation is cause for the raising of "red flags," we wonder whether this development may not reflect much more serious and far-reaching problems, which Mr. Brough somehow failed to express to Mr. Schwebke.
Inadvertently or not, we believe Ace Reporter Schwebke has pulled out from bankruptcy court documents some telling information on this point:
US Mortgage President Earl Gross said in a court document that his company’s financial problems began in November 2002 after acquiring a large portfolio of loan-servicing rights from the Government National Mortgage Association, also known as Ginnie Mae.Reading between the lines, what seems to have happened here is that the hapless U.S. Mortgage has been left holding the bag, with a portfolio of flaky "sub-prime" loans, in a U.S. "bubble housing market," which is now "going bust."
The company discovered the loans had not been serviced according to GNMA guidelines and were in “bad condition” because documentation was incomplete or nonexistent, Gross said in the documents.
Subsequently, GNMA ordered an audit of its loans and, as a result, pulled all loan servicing from US Mortgage, he said.
For those readers who don't devote much time to reading the financial pages, we helpfully link this succinct explanatory article here.
Readers looking for a more thorough explanation of the percipient problem can check out this article.
The failure of significant numbers of U.S. mortgage lenders (or loan servicing companies in the secondary mortgage market) bodes ill for real estate investors across the country. The inevitable tightening of credit which will result from this financial crisis will also inevitably deflate housing prices.
We suspect this situation is also giving that guy with the 100 recent residential property acquisitions in Ogden more than a little heartburn.
We've already had a few comments on today's Std-Ex article in the lower thread. Perhaps we'll move those comments here, and use this article to set up our weekend-kickoff open thread -- just for fun.
Comments, anyone?
Update 3/25/07 4:28 p.m. MT: Read this excellent Associated Press article on the sub-prime mortgage crisis. We tried all afternoon to link it from the Std-Ex website, which is down (again).
70 comments:
Since we seem to be discussing real estate matters, there is a story in this morning's SE, front page, Top of Utah section that might be interesting. In it, Mr. Schwebke reports: OGDEN -- Twenty-six homeowners participating in a first-time loan program administered by the city are being required to temporarily make mortgage payments to the Ogden Business Information Center.
BIC is accepting mortgage payments because US Mortgage, a Las Vegas company that services the loans for Ogden, has filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy, said Jeanne M. Harris, a senior project coordinator for the city.
After April 1, property owners enrolled in Ogden's Homeownership Loan Program will submit mortgage payments to Amerinational Community Services, a Downey, Calif., company the city has contracted to service the loans.
The story continues: The city uses funding from the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development and partners with banks to provide affordable home loans to qualified buyers.
Harris said she is unaware of any other cities in Utah with a similar program.
Residents have used the program to purchase townhomes in the Union Square development on 25th Street and houses throughout the city.
I don't know what, if any, significant import this has for downtown development and real estate development in Ogden overall. Presumably it is related, somehow, to the sub-prime loan mess. But since it does seem to involve in some way the troubled Union Square condo development, and mortgages on its condo units, I thought I'd post the link and ask if anyone knows if this is significant for Ogden, and if so, how. I don't.
(March 23, 2007 8:01 AM)
I think that Spain was serving up consumables. It sounds much better and sexy to say that these are second homes for the well-heeled in Scottsdale. Hardly. I have never heard of people buying modest second homes in a city for vacation villas. Usually they buy timeshares, condos or mountain chalets in more rural or resort settings. I think he was simply dressing up the fact that they have converted a substantial chunk of the local home sale inventory to rentals. Most of these are East Bench homes and his strategy is quite counter to that of the neighborhood and the city. More LO inconsistency. He is also playing to the fact that the mortgages his company wrote are classified as second home mortgages when in reality they will be income properties.
(March 23, 2007 8:17 AM)
The BIC office on Washington Blvd. being moved to the Amer Can building brings up another question regarding Ogden's financial business practices.
Ogden received a U. S. Dept. of Commerce grant to remodel the BIC building on Washington.
Now that building is being abandoned by Ogden to relocate the BIC offices.
So what are the strings attached to the Dept. of Commerce grant for the Washington Blv. building? Will we have to repay any of it?
Who knows the rules on government grant to cities?
(March 23, 2007 9:27 AM)
The question of a government grant to Ogden for the BIC building brings up my question which is what is the BIC agency any way?
Is this a function of Ogden City government? Who runs the office? Who pays their expenses?
If they are part of City government why are we moving it to the Amer Can to pay rent to Jon Peddie of Colorado Springs?
(March 23, 2007 9:32 AM)
The only upside I can see w/ all the east bench homes being gobbled up by a single investor/speculator is that it will force people who really want to live in Ogden to buy in neighborhoods where they may not of thought of buying in the past. But, then again, I doubt most people who are looking to buy on the east bench would look to moving into the Horace Mann or East Central or other such neighborhood, unfortunately. In the end, simply put, the ultimate consequence of this is that it will destabilize Ogden's largest stable neighborhood, which Ogden will pay for years down the road. Is Spain truly a HERO?
(March 23, 2007 8:49 AM)
I did some research on the BIC building on Washington and it has been sold for around $500,000.00.
However, no one can explain about what happens to the government grant the City received to remodel it or whether it has to be repaid and if so, how much will be repaid?
Amerinational Community Services, from Downey, California, has apparently been handling the small Own-in-Ogden Grants/Loans for a while (from what I recall). I suppose Own-in-Ogden is different than the Homeownership Loan Program. As an aside, last year Amerinational's Downey offices were broken into and sensitive information was stolen, thus threatening Ogdenites (who have gone through Own-in-Ogden) and others--putting them at risk of identity theft.
I sold NFI - a mortgage supplier with at the time an 11% dividend - a few months ago for $32 a share. That stock goes for under $6 now.
It's crash time for those companies. But, while these types of loans reflect a small percentage of the mortgage market, because of the way they are leveraged some companies will fold quickly when things go bad. High leverage works both ways. Take note, fans of Matt.
I just got some really good news from Craig Call, Utah Property Ombudsman.
After the Supreme Court ruled on the Kelo eminent domain case last year Congress passed a law that eminent domain cannot be used for redevelopment purposes
IF
any Federal funds are used in the redevelopment project!!
That is important ammunition to have in reserve if Godfrey starts rumblings about seizing property
If Mr. Spain has really bought up over a 100 houses on the East Bench, as he and others are claiming, how come he has never come around and offered me anything for my non-owner occupied house up there?
A hundred houses on the east bench is a huge percentage of those on the market in that area in the recent past. Sounds like some pretty big talk to me. But then again talk is cheap, that is why there is so much of it.
When this general real estate bust reaches Ogden, and no doubt it will, then there will be lots of great deals to be picked up from the debris that will result. Mr. Spain could be putting bucks in our pockets at this very moment!
Welcome to Ogden Dude! And what ever you do, give me a call, I got a pretty nice place in east Ogden I will make you a deal on.
NFI thumbnail & Chart
Good call, saw it coming!
Little Matty and his friends should be so smart.
Youngsters seem always to learn these lessons the hard way, though, don't they?
Ozboy:
The figures nationwide so far indicate that the really heavily impacted home sales areas are those where prices soared very rapidly to very elevated levels... places like Phoenix, AZ and Miami and Seattle and parts of California. So reports the NYT and WSJ.... but then, the WSJ hires reporters who think the Mayor of Ogden wants to build one gondola to take people from downtown to a Malan's Basin resort he seems to think already exists. So I'm not sure their figures can be relied on. But the NYT figures seem sound.
Places not caught up in the bubble will feel some blowback effect, presumably as mortgage qualifications tighten, interest rates rise, etc. But Ogden, not having participated in the bubble, may as a consequence [like other areas that were not part of it] not have much downside facing it either. St. George had a biggish run up, but most of the rest of Utah seems not to have had.
We shall see....
Oh gentle Curmudgeon; we love you so. But this?
"But Ogden, not having participated in the bubble..."
Get real and call a realtor to write-up a comparative market analysis on the home which you presumedly bought five years ago when you moved here.
You'll have your eyes widened.
Curmudgeon
Based on the Weber County Assesor's opinion (the only one that counts apparently) of the values of my Ogden properties, I do not agree with your perception that Ogden hasn't been on the real estate bubble the last few years.
Please call the assesor and educate him post haste.
dorothy littrell,
That is truely good news.
Now it will be fun to watch as our mayor tries to move bonding from one piece of city property to another in order to try and get around the law. To accomplish this transfer of debt between city assets he will need, I suspect, city council approval.
Council members should pay attention to such requests to transfer debt from one project to another project or to a city building.
This may fly in the face of the legal intent of the law and it may not be in the best interest of the city residents.
Are there any ties between anyone in Ogden (i.e.FOM) and US Mortgage or Amerinational Community Services?
Is $500,000 a fair market price for the BIC building?
Who bot it anyway?
Rudi and Oz:
I grant you, I have not gotten an appraisal of late. I'm relying on the stories/numbers I've seen in the national media, which indicate again [lastest article just about five months ago] that Utah home prices have not come close to being part of the over-heated market that sent them to stratispheric levels in places like Phoenix over the past half decade. Not even close. That Utah prices have appreciated, yes. But neither the magnitude of the rise nor the rate over time came close to the run ups in "hot" markets. I doubt the appreciation in property values in Northern Utah constitutes anything close to a "real estate bubble," historically speaking.
But, not having exact and current numbers, perhaps I should have said of N. Utah residential values, that they have not taken part in the "real estate bubble comparatively speaking."
I am hoping to work around a software glitch that will grandfather me into Times Select [i.e. free access to the NYT archives] and if I can I'll try to find the national numbers they reported about four or five months ago so I'll have specifics.
The characteristics of investment bubbles [such as we had in the dot.com bubble] involve meteoric rises to price levels that have little correspondence to the usual factors that determine prices in the particular market involved [remember astronomical IPOs for .com companies that had no product, no sales, and no profits, doubling, tripling, quadrupling out of the gate within months, sometimes weeks?] followed by catestrophic collapses on the other side when the bubble bursts [again the .com collapse]. In places like Phoenix, the Times reports, people are walking away from escrow deposits, rather than complete purchasing the houses they put the escrow money down on. Spec builders and spec flippers are dumping properties at or below cost. In Miami, condo towers that sold out to spec buyers long before completion now stand, in some cases, nearly empty with units that cannot be sold at virtually any price. Contracts for new construction have been cancelled in many cases and some towers underconstruction have seen construction stopped. That's what happens when a bubble collapses. Nothing suggests Utah [possible exception of St. George area] has undergone anything like the kind of run up that would result in a bubble-like collapse.
What we're disagreeing about, I suspect, is what kind of run up [%] over what period of time constitutes a "real estate bubble". I don't think we've seen one here, though clearly the Ogden Realtors Benevolent Association and Lift Ogden Council Chamber Amen Lip-Synching Choir would love to ignite one. As, apparently, would the Administration.
The history of investment bubbles are that they are not, in the long run, beneficial to the sectors of the economy [and people] who get caught up in them. With the possible exception of particularly deft in and out speculators.
I'm unhappy arguing this without numbers. Let me see if I can get the NYT glitch fixed and find some.
PS For me, stuff like this is one of the things that makes WCF interesting. I'm emailing colleagues in Urban Studies and Urban Geography asking about what happens when residential neighborhoods see large numbers of single family homes converted to seasonal residences. [Has it happened elsewhere?] And emailing economic historian colleagues on investment bubbles in general and real estate bubbles in particular in American history. None of which I'd be doing but for the discussion WCF touched off. Of course, it's cutting down on my cheap-trashy-mystery-reading time [to which Mrs. Curmudgeon says "thank God." I don't get no respect.]
At last we find that Rodney Dangerfield did not die after all.
He is living in Ogden, Utah
disquised as Mr. Curmudgeon, and
he still isn't getting any respect.
Curmudgeon et al,
I've found this is a good site for housing market valuations:
Link
Southsider:
Thank you.
OK, the site Southsider links above gives some indication of what I was suggesting. [Really is a neat site. Interactive map of real estate median house prices and estimates of "over" or "under" valuation [which means estimated value of downside risk for the markets listed as "overvalued."]
Here are some numbers, based apparently on end of 2006 prices.
Flagstaff AZ Overvalued 48%
Prescott AZ Overvalued 59%
Phoenix, AZ Overvalued 40%
Ocala, FL Overvalued 43%
Salt Lake City Overvalued 12.3%
Ogden, UT Overvalued 6.4%
Granted, the overvalued numbers are estimates and predictions, but the huge differences between the "bubble" markets of AZ and those of No. Utah, particularly Ogden, suggest that while we face some downside risk in the near term, it is nothing like, not even in the same ballpark with, what is going on now, and has been for the past eight months, in Phoenix and other formerly "hot" markets. Wikipedia notes, for example, that
Searching the Arizona Regional Multiple Listing Service (ARMLS) shows that in summer 2006, the for-sale housing inventory in Phoenix has grown to over 50,000 homes, of which nearly half are vacant (see graphic)....CEO Robert Toll of Toll Brothers [a luxury home builder in Az] explained, "builders that built speculative homes are trying to move them by offering large incentives and discounts; and some anxious buyers are canceling contracts for homes already being built."
No market in Utah that I know of [possibly excepting St. George] experienced the kind of explosive run AZ markets did, nor the kind of collapse, unsold inventory, cancelled contracts they are now experiencing on the downside. Certainly nothing in N. Utah remotely close to the experiecne of Prescott, Flagstaff or Phoenix.
So, we've had a run up in median price of residential properties in Ogden over the past few years, but nothing close to a speculative bubble in real estate prices, and so it's unlikely we'll see declines anywhere near what's happening now in the places that did have speculative bubbles in residential properties.
BTW, the link Southsider provided also gives in graph form historic data over the previous two decades for media prices market by market over the US, Ogden included.
Talk to some property owners in the valley up around Huntsville and Eden if you want to hear the real scary poop on property values and the appraisals for property taxes. Incredible!
The appraised land values are unreal.
A friend was telling about property that he bought a couple of years ago for $25,00 and put a trailer on it that is now assessed at $450,000.00.
I would take my $450,000.00 if I could really get that and vamoose.
Unimproved lots at Bear Lake located on the hill as you drive into Bear Lake from Logan are selling for $75,000.00. There is nothing there and no view and no access to water. Somebody foolish enough to pay that kind of dough is gonna regret it.
I think some greedy real estate people and/or developers think they are going to make a killing.
I have lived through real estate debacles in Utah before -
Remember Park City when you couldn't give away a piece of property - back in the 80's. Everything goes in cycles.
Curm,
I think the interesting thing for Ogden is that real estate in Ogden for years sold at a large discount to the national avreage. That is not the case today. Our real estate has elevated in price to competitive prices. Not a bubble but no bargains either. That in itself is an accomplishment and suggests that Ogden is about where it should be.
That's a good thing and it had nothing to do with a gondola or our yet to be opened Rec Center.
If anything, these projects, if unsuccessful have the ability to raise our taxes, that would then make our city's real estate less desireable for people considering a move to our fine city.
Ogden is growing and prospering just fine with out these grandiose projects that Godfrey is trying to leverage off of our lending ability.
Here is the company that bought the building from the city at 2444 washington for an amount of 250,000 so the county recorder office sayes. it was recorder if I remember about the same time the american can building was sold this year, that is the middle of january.
360 GUY, LLC NOTICE for publication ARTICLES OF ORGANIZATION HAVE BEEN FILED IN THE OFFICE OF THE ARIZONA CORPORATION COMMISSION I. Name: 360 Guy, LLC II. The address of the known place of business is 8121 E. Indian Bend Rd. Ste. 128, Scottsdale, AZ 85250. III. The name and address of the Statutory Agent is: Capital Legal Services, Inc., 7110 E. McDonald Dr., Ste. B-2, Scottsdale, AZ 85253. IV. Management of the limited liability company is reserved to the members. The names and addresses of each person who is a member are: Richard L. Strohm, 8121 E. Indian Bend Rd. Ste. 128, Scottsdale, AZ 85250. 3/2, 3/9, 3/16, 2007 editions Arizona Capitol Times Document prepared by www.capital-legal.com
this is the info I got of the internet. so it is public.
one other thing, this is the building that the front fell down onto the sidewalk and washington blvd about a year ago, so how much of the city's money went into putting a new face on the building and why did the city sell it and was this one put out to bid. or was this one of the friends of matty
this is off the recorder web site.
Owner
2444 WASHINGTON LLC ETAL
Property
Address 2444 WASHINGTON BLVD
OGDEN 84401
Mailing
Address 7110 E MCDONALD DR #B2
SCOTSDALE AZ 85253
Tax Unit 224
Date 16-JAN-07
Property Value Info
Desc
Year
Size
Market Value
Land 0.09 Acres $33,040.00
Building 1912 5056 SQ FT $253,194.00
Total Market Value: $286,234.00
Current References
Entry # Book Page Recorded Date
2235426 16-JAN-07
Ozboy
I agree with your observation regarding the purchase of 100 homes on the east bench. That's a huge percentage of the property there. Anybody done a search and found out if Mr. Spain was just blowing a lot of air? My guess that many houses haven't changed hands in the past year.
There are about a dozen for lease signs around the bench from Provident Partners. The 100 is an exaggeration for the moment. They told me 70 last week. They were shooting for 100. I am quite sure they have now driven enough price elevation to put the better condition homes out of their fundamentals. Any current seller would be smart to price up a little and wait for Amer and the summer selling season. Be patient. Don't sell to Provident too soon. They will bid up too.
The Provident homes are being purchased by individual investor clients of Provident. It would be tough to search how many are under their management. You could search recent purchases by Arizona owners for some indication. Provident writes the mortgages and manages the property for their clients.
Anon 11:46
Sounds just about right to me, what you posted, on all points.
Scott Brown Resigning in May
SE has a story today reporting that Mr. Scott Brown is resigning in May, as soon as the Rec Center opens. The Administration expresses hope it can keep him on as a consultant. Cannot post link since the SE digital edition this morning is sulking and not cooperating. But it's an interesting story. Brown says once he no longer works for the city he can speak more freely about Mr. Garcia and he intends to make sure people do not forget his allegations. Story worth tracking down and reading, I think.
Thanks, Curm.
The Std-EX site is still malfunctioning; but here's a link to Kristen Moulton's version of the Brown story:
Ogden's controversial business-development manager to step down
(Brown's retirement was of course predicted a couple of weeks ago, by one of our attentive and gentle readers.)
T Bone:
You wrote: The Provident homes are being purchased by individual investor clients of Provident. It would be tough to search how many are under their management. You could search recent purchases by Arizona owners for some indication. Provident writes the mortgages and manages the property for their clients.
It would seem then that Provident is putting people not into "second homes" intended as seasonal escapes from the summer heat, as Mr. Spain suggested to the City Council, but rather is recommending the properties to clients as investment properties, designed to be operated for some time as rental properties. And that raises another question, then. What will the consequences be of turning a hundred single family homes on the East Bench into purely rental properties? Is this a shift the Council wants to encourage... moving large numbers of homes in established stable neighborhoods out of the category of owner-occupied and into the category of rental properties instead? Somehow, I doubt that. But we shall see.
To History of Ogden,
So the property actually sold for only $250,000 and not $500,000?
If that is the case then that price was NOT market price.
Also I don't recall any public notice of this sale which I, my self, would have participated in the opportunity to purchase the building had I had a chance. At that price, it was a steal!
I want to know how at guy in Arizona get's the inside info to bid and/or buy a piece of Ogden property when locals aren't even aware that the property is for sale?
Who is this guy Richard L. Strohm anyway and how is he connected to Ogden City? He must know someone within the city fairly well.
If this is truely the sales price then Ogden City Council should investigate this sale as this is not market price and this sale is not in the best interest of the city, this is either very bad management or cronyism, either way it is wrong.
Anon:
I don't know any of the details about the building or its FMV or its condition when sold. But I'd like to comment on one [and only one] point of your post. This one:
Also I don't recall any public notice of this sale which I, my self, would have participated in the opportunity to purchase the building had I had a chance....I want to know how at guy in Arizona get's the inside info to bid and/or buy a piece of Ogden property when locals aren't even aware that the property is for sale?
Again, I am not in real estate [other than being a homeowner in Ogden]. I know dip-squat or less about commercial realty. And I don't know customary practices in Ogden for selling city owned property [in or out of RDAs]. All that being said, Anon's post does seem to me to raise a question raised during the Bootjack matter: would it be in the public interest for the city to maintain, on line and easily scanable, a listing of city-owned properties that have been declared "surplus" or are otherwise available for sale?
Perhaps there are reasons this can not or should not be done. As I said, I'm not in the commercial properties business. If so, I'd be curious to know what those reasons are. So let me just offer it as a question [and it would be nice to hear from someone on the inside of City government on this]: does Ogden maintain such a "properties available for purchase" list? If it does not, would it be in the public interest to establish one? And if not, what are the reasons why not?
Anybody know the answers?
Don't forget the background on David Harmer who is the big boss of the Ogden RDA.
Harmer was the head of the Utah Redevelopment Agency that Governor Huntsman fired as well as every person on Harmer's staff of about 40 when Huntsman came into office.
The department was so messed up that Huntsman canned everybody.
So Mayor Godfrey went after Harmer to bring to Ogden because Harmer was an expert on creating chaos.
And it looks like Harmer still has "that touch"
needed him in Ogden to make our mess messier.
Curm,
Irrespective of whether it was a public process or not, if this property truely transacted for only $250,000, that was a very low price for that property considering this market and its location.
Keep in mind that this is prime commercial real estate on the main drag thru town, in the heart of the downtown area of town and directly across from the City municipal building. This build has been updated to city standards, rewired for communication and basically in restored condition. I belive it's a three story building.
I know people who own buildings on 25th street that have paid more than that amount just to earthquate proof their buildings.
I know you can't compare homes to commercial property but you can equate relative values and as such there is a 3800 sq. ft. home not far from where I live that is selling for $330,000. It's a nice home but its not a stand out home in an exclusive neighborhood. Point being that if this building in Ogden, if it actually sold for $250,000 or anything near that number, then it was considerably under market price and that sale was not in the best interest of the city.
Someone should look into this transaction. As a taxpayer I don't want to pay taxes just so the administration can use my money to line some else's pocket. I pay taxes to the city so that the city can provide the services, maintain the infrastructure and manage those functions.
This is wrong if this transaction truely took place at that price and if so someone should see if it can be undone!
Isn't Strohm related to Brown?
Nepotism in the Land of OZ
As long as we are going down Memory Lane why is it that everyone in Ogden City government has forgotten that the $900,000.00 Marty Stephens as House Speaker got for us in 2003 in order to buy the American Can Building was given "to create jobs".
Mayor Godfrey and his RDA "experts" are expert at one thing which is getting government grants.
It is apparent that they don't often read the fine print on the grant contracts.
It is understood that the standing code of conduct for Ogden City employees is "just do what you are told and we will fight it out in court later".
Speaking of court, did anyone notice that Mel Kemp of Kemp Development settled out of court with OK3AIR in OK3AIR's suit against Kemp for violations at Ogden's Airport?
However, OK3AIR will still be going to Judge Tina Campbell's Federal Court in May with their suit against Ogden City and Fair Aviation for similar Ogden Airport violations against OK3AIR.
Let's hope that Ogden has budgeted for this settlement.
I have been wondering why Kemp's pricey Ogden Airport Rickenbacker Restaurant has been advertising a dinner special for $14.99. That is a drastic price cut from their usual prices.
For the Johnny-come-latelies to Ogden, part of the suit is about Ogden's Airport RDA giving Kemp a $2.2 million tax increment package and other preferential treatment.
Ogden deserves to pay up on this one. Who wants to make odds?
"Speaking of court, did anyone notice that Mel Kemp of Kemp Development settled out of court with OK3AIR in OK3AIR's suit against Kemp for violations at Ogden's Airport?"
Gateway suit defendants paired down
GGAATW
Harmer and his Utah State Development team were replaced at the beginning of the Huntsman term by Huntsman's own team headed up by Chris Roybal. The new Huntsman/Roybal team was formerly a public/private organization whose mission it was to bring new biz to Utah. (Utah Development Corp?) There was competition between the existing beauracrats (Harmer & team) and Chris' private group that pre-dated the election.
Roybal was on board the Huntsman train from the first exploratory committee. He was Huntsman's main brain when it came to economic development thoughout the election.
In addition, and even more important, Chris and Jon hit it off magnificently in the satorial department. They both always look like they stepped out of the pages of GQ. Their wifes look great together also, a definate plus these days. So it was only natural that Chris would be appointed to the main economic post after Huntsman's election. I mean clothes do make the man you know.
(On this point I have to say that Mr. Harmer is no slouch himself in the clothes horse department, he just met his match in Chris Roybal)
It is natural that Harmer & Co. would be shown the door to make room for the new team. I doubt that any of it had to do with Harmer's competence, or lack thereof. He just picked the wrong pony to ride in that Governor's race.
On the other hand, I think that Mr. Harmer's tenure in Ogden has certainly demonstrated said competence, or lack thereof. His pony picking skills apparently are still questionable considering his current ride out of the Godfrey stables.
Interersting how Godfrey picked two losers in a row from the Salt Lake big show to run his economic fantasy. First Stu Reid after he was rejected by SLC where he had been the economic director and failed mayorial candidate, and then Harmer with his Huntsman rejection slip.
One question that comes to mind is: Is it smart or reasonable to think that you could build a successfull enterprise with two known rejects in a row at the helm? The short answer is "yes", if you have a direct pipeline into God like our mayor does. Otherwise, "maybe not".
ozboy -
You need to get up to speed about the mess in the Governor's Office of Economic Development which was there during the Leavitt-Olene Walker era and which Harmer helped create.
Anon 11:28
You may well be right. I just don't know about prices, the property involved, etc. What I wanted to raise was the matter of an on=going city property available for purchase listing, by the city. Is such a thing feasible? [There may be reasons why not, in which case I'd like to know what they are.] Do other cities maintain public listings of available public properties for sale? Would such a listing tend to increase offer prices for city properties for sale? I don't know the answer to any of those questions and would like to.
Beyond any particular property or the actions of any particular mayor or any of his staff, I have an interest in how my city's government operates. I think it's very difficult to run a city well when people are suspicious about how things happen, are suspicious about insider deals, etc.
Let's take it for the sake of argument that nothing untoward has happened in Ogden city government involving property sales, that everything was on the up and up. Then it is especially unfortunate that there are suspicions swirling around about what has happened. Given that, it seems to me that if something so simple as a city property for sale listing can eliminate such unjustified suspicions, it would be well worth doing [presuming there are not other reasons, compelling ones, why a public listing should not be done]. It would make it easier for the city to be governed by the Godfrey administration, the one that follows --- and sooner or later one will follow --- or any other one down the line, seems to me. Having these kinds of suspicions running loose does not serve the people of Ogden well, even if they have no basis in fact whatever. The whole point of "open government" is so that unjustified suspicions will not gain currency. Or one of the points. The other is to make it difficult to rig stuff. Sunshine is a great disinfectant where government is concerned.
Just for the sake of argument, and again presuming nothing whatsoever was done wrongly by anybody, if questions arose over the Bootjack property or the sale of the business center building, it seems to me they could have been, would have been, spiked instantly by a statement like this from the Mayor:
"These properties have been listed on the Ogden surplus property list for months. Right out there on the city website in front of God and everybody. Nothing was concealed, nobody had any information about their availablity that was not available to anyone who looked at the listing. And we sold the properties, finally to [pick one, depending] (a)the only person who made a purchase offer on it (b) the purchaser who offered fair market value and intends to use the property in a way we thought would best serve downtown renovation. So give me a break. It was all out there as public information for anyone who wanted to access it."
Bam. Most of the suspicions [not all, I agree; some people will never be satisfied] would have dissipated quickly.
So again, I'm wondering of a public listing of city property available for sale would not be wise, and if there are reasons why it would not be, I wish someone more familiar with all of this than I am would tell me what those reasons are.
Good analysis, Curm!
Why not just list surplus city properties on the regional Multiple Listing Service (MLS)?
It's Econ 101 -- supply & demand. The more potential buyers who are aware that a property is on the market, the more potential buyers will submit their offers.
The best offers for properties are generated through the free market.
Why are Ogden City properties NOT listed for sale on the MLS, we ask?
An Ogden City website "listing": doesn't "cut it," BTW
Curm,
I can appreciate and share your desire for a more open process for the sale of city property. If you want to focus on that issue, fine, but my main issue was not that point.
That said thou, my main point is that I still maintain that if the property actually sold for $250,000, that it was sold for significantly less than market value. I have been in the market for investment property in Ogden and I can assure you that it was a steal at that price.
It would be interesting to find out what Descente paid for their building which is, I think, right next door to the BIC building.
Also “Carl said” that he thought that Strohm was related to Scott brown. It would be interesting to know if that is true because if that is so and if the price is, as I believe under market price, then the city may have real legal issues. That could be an example of malfeasance.
So far as we can tell, anonymous, Descente Corporation hasn't invested a dime in Emerald CIty real estate.
A we understand it, their only property interest in Ogden is a leasehold in a downtown building across from city hall, owned by Boss Godfrey's inlaws
You people on this blog are so clueless. You see conspiracies where there are none, you see malfiesence when there is only honest above board dealings.
Any body with a lick of sense knows that you can get a lot more for property by selling it secretly to your closest friends than you can by listing it with the public. It is really just econ 101 and common sense.
Anon:
I wasn't criticizing in any way, Anon. By all means, raise the question about price. It's just that your original post got me thinking again about how to fix, once and for all, problems like the one you raised [why didn't you know the property was for sale?] down the line. I see our posts as complementary, not conflicting.
Curm,
I didn't take your post as criticism. I agree with your thoughts.
I just don't want the point that I brought up to get lost in the discussion.
I really think that if the property was sold for only that amount of money that it only represents about 1/3 of it's market value. Speculative comment yes, but based on what I've seen out there in the market.
If you eceived your water billtoay read the bit about all of the HUD houses listed on the Oden city web page. I don't rremember ever seeing it. Or maybe someone has been reading this blog.
Nancy
I think that someone should grama all the bids that have taken place for all the property that godfrey has sold since 99 and see what the competition prices have been and who was awarded the bid. I think every one will be suprized.
lionel,
did you ever know that competition brings out the better product or price in this case, and just because you think it is legal does not make you honest.
Hey Lionel, are you implying that your friends may be stupid or what? Would it be an act of charity they would be performing by paying more for your property, or what? My experience has been quite the opposite, friends and relatives expect to get a good deal.
With regards to Lionel comments,
Everyone needs to read Lionel second comment.
Lionel was being mocking the way that godfrey is selling the property, i.e. secretly to his best friends.
If Ogden City properties were listed on the MLS, then a realtor would have had to "list" them. Juste reading the beatings Sue Wilkerson, the realtor for "Home Sweet Ogden" has taken, makes me wonder how bad a beating the realtor who "list" Ogden City's properties would take, just because he was the realtor.
This blog is famous for scolding, conspiracy theories, etc. when it comes to Ogden City and the business it does with certain people. Why subject yourself to that crap when all you're trying to do is improve the city in which we live.
Our philosophy is really about the only thing that's different and it's a far cry from what is printed on many of these posts. I'm sure someone would find something wrong with these "listings," just as they do with everything else that the City does.
I have an idea: why don't some of you, those of you with the loudest voices, GO OUT AND GET INVOLVED in a City project. Run for office; volunteer; do something other than bitch. Then your words might carry some weight.
In the letters to the editor today,
Chris Wirick stated how he/she remembers how when he/she was a kid, Ogden was making the national list of the one of the best places to live, by the way it still is.
Also he/she remembers making his/her twice yearly trips BACK HOME. My question is that if Chris really thinks of Ogden as home, why doesn’t Chris move back into Ogden? If Chris wants to share in the up coming financial deterioration of the city so he/she can share in the financial burden that the actual residents of Ogden will have to absorb for these “visions”, then I’d have more respect for his/her comments.
If Chris was actually an Ogden resident, he/she might have a different view of things.
Ogden is a great place to live and is probably why Chris moved back to the area. I too have lived in Orange County, California. Even with all of the faults that Chris may think that we have here; it still has Orange County beat hands down.
Ogden is getting national attention not because of this administration but because Ogden is a great place to live, in spite of this administration.
Take a cold shower, Reader.
I recall Curt saying that the "rents" are lower here than in CO.
Then he convinced his Japanese bosses to move the little shop of gloves to Ogden.
So, perhaps we've all been just hallucinating that Curt and Descente have made financial commitments in Ogden?
He's a renter, man...just like the people will be in Spain's houses on the East bench!
BTW...what happened to your sense of humor...bloggers? Lionel's last post was amusing and ironic. Stop taking yourselves so seriously!
Besides, Rupert the Producer hates Lionel, so Lionel must be 'okay', eh?
Hey Reader, you pre-suppose too much. How would you know what community involvement these folks participate in, I know quite a few of them and they make tremendous contributions to this community. As for Sue Wilkerson, she's entitled to her opinion,but she wrote what she wrote, she chose to divulge her ignorance as well as assumed a pretty stupid posture proclaiming to be part of some silent majority. If you were involved enough to attend and participate in the Mt. Ogden community plan meetings and proccess, you would know that 99.9% of the people there oppose this mayors plan. the rest of the city may drop to 95% opposition, if your lucky.
Apologies to Lionel, if you'll note the time of my post you may concider I had not had my coffee at that early hour, the chickens came first this morning, then Iposted while waiting on the pot.(no pun)
To Reader,
First, why would Ogden City have to list property with a real estate company? Why couldn’t it post the property on the city web page, in the new paper and/or post a sign on the property that is for sale? Ogden City has successfully sold property in this manner in the past without paying any real estate broker costs.
Ms. Wilkerson didn’t get beat up, as you say, for being a real estate broker that represented city property; she got beat up for her blind faith support of this administration that is out of control. If truly Sue Wilkerson is taking a beating anywhere other than on this blog then that must say something about what the whole community thinks of the mayor’s projects and of her support for those projects. Obviously the good people of Ogden don’t share the “vision”. Maybe you and the mayor should see the obvious, what do you think?
As far as your comment to get involved, I would challenge you to approach our mayor with a view that differs from his and see how tolerant and accepting he is to even listening to your thoughts. My personal experience is that he either tries to marginalize your comments or suggestions or he fabricates what sounds like a reasonable but unfounded response to your comments. Something to just shut you up. When you then research his unfounded response and then try to resolve the differences between his response and reality, you then find that you’ve been labeled a CAVE.
I suspect that you are either so on board with the mayor’s delusional visions or you’re related to him, one or the other.
I think it was Rudi who suggested "listing" the City properties on the MLS and I just responed to that....WHOEVER the realtor was that got these listings WOULD BE CRUCIFIED on this here blog.
Curt Geiger may just be renting a downtown building, but he's purchasing a house, just like his son. He has a big stake in this community. Go buy a Sunday Trib and read what they think about Geiger and Descente. Got a special section extolling his virtues.
And Bill C....all you are interested in is playing golf at M.O. and you don't even live in town.
Like I said, get involved in a City project and your comments would have more credability.
Reader:
Most have made the points that need to be made in re: your post, but let me add my one comments one two. First, you admonish those who post here to "get involved" in improving Ogden, volunteer, etc. Many of us already do, Reader. The notion that those who don't accept the Mayor's gondola/gondola/real estate speciulation scheme for bettering Ogden are simply naysayers who propose nothing and do nothing is old Lift Ogden propaganda, long shown to have no foundation in fact. And it's getting really old.
Second: Ms. Wilkerson is free to risk her own money on whatever schemes on "blind faith" when she "does not have all the facts." However, her willingness to bet the public's money on a blind faith project [the gondola/gondola/Peterson scheme] for which we have so far no facts, no feasibilty studies, no market studies, in fact no actual proposal at all, is another matter. She is free to gamble with her own rescoures. Not a word of criticism from me for that, past, present or future. But her recommending that the City Council do the same... without the facts and on blind faith... that's another matter.
As for the Geigers, they are generally criticized here for their drum beating for the as yet-unrevealed Peterson proposal and their continued support for the Mayor's "conceptual" gondola/gondola plan... for which plans the mayor has provided so far no feasibility studies for any of the three elements of it that have to succeed for any of it to work, no market studies suggesting economic feasibility, etc etc etc.
They are certainly, as Ogden residents and businessmen, free to weigh in on public discussion of policy proposals. But when they do, they open themselves to criticism for attempting to sell the City on gambling as much as 50 million dollars in public money, and the city's largest park, on the schemes they favor.
One of the consequenes of taking a public role in policy advocacy is that your ideas become subject to scrutiny and, therefor, potentially open to criticism. The fact that Mr. Geiger also has had the advantage of publically financed media to present his views [try counting the number of time the Geiger Interviews have run on the city's public community channel] while those who think differently do not have that access means the latter have to take what options they have... like WCF postings... to get a different POV out.
Same for Ms. Wilkerson. If she rises at a Council Meeting and goes on the record, as she did [and is absolutely as free to do as I am or you are, and kudoes to her for standing up on the record], then her views as well become subject to public scrutiny and, perhaps, criticism. That does not constitute being "crucified" or "beaten." When you take a public stand on a controversial matter... on either side... you can expect disagreement, even criticism of your views. It's called "discussion" and "debate." And it's how, very often, in a democracy, the public makes decisions. Deal with it.
I realize, Reader, you would prefer that no one criticize Mr. Geiger's views or Ms. Wilkerson's recommendations that the Council procede to sell the city's parks and gamble the public's money on "blind faith." But that's not how, here in Utah, controversial matters are usually dealt with.
Here is a link to the SL Trib piece on the Geigers and Desante Reader mentioned above: Click here.
Note two things in it. That it was proximity to Snow Basin and the low rents in Ogden [compared to those in Colorado] that drew Descente here. The article does say Mr. Geiger had trouble convincing is superiors of the wisdom of the move, but that Matt Godfrey's "concept" of a gondola convinced them. I'd only note here that at that point, the "gondola" plan Lift Ogden and Mr. Geiger were touting was a gondola connecting downtown Ogden to Snow Basin. It was only when Snow Basin flatly declined an over-mountain gondola connection to Ogden that the current Rube Goldberg system of flatland gondolas connecting to mountain gondolas financed by selling off city parklands in order to build a mini-ski resort in Malan's basin was conceived, apparently to "save the gondola" concept at any price.
I can understand why Mr. Geiger, having apparently all but guaranteed to his superiors in the company that "a gondola" --- some gondola, any gondola, connecting downtown Ogden with someplace, anyplace --- is so urgently committed to building one. I sympathize, but not enough to sink up to 50 million in public money and the city's parklands on the bench into just to make his assurances good.
Said it before, so I'll say it again: I am glad Descente came to Ogden. I am glad Mr. Geiger is playing an important role in selling Ogden as an outdoors industry hub. I wish him great success in continuing in that role. And I will be able to cheer him on without demur once he abandons the idea that Ogden must have, at public expense, financed by the sale of the city's bench parklands, a flatland gondola from downtown to WSU.
Mr. Geiger: why not support instead Mercy Livermore and Kent Jorgensen's Option B: a gondola from the head of 36th Street to Malan's Basin, with its base on a small plot of land sold to Mr. Peterson by the city. Ogden will have then a gondola, and one actually built where it makes sense: to carry people up mountain over difficult terrain. Your pledge to your superiors will be fulfilled. Mr. Peterson can, with his own funds raised in the usual capital markets, can develop Malan's Basin as he wishes. His investors will carry the risk for both the Malan's project and the mountain gondola, not the public.
And Ogden's residents will keep their public benchlands open and in public hands, the silly flatland two-right-angle gondola over city streets from downtown to WSU will not soak up 35 to 50 million in public funds. Most of the controversy will disappear.
Now's the time for compromise so the controversy will end and Ogden can move forward as it should. And Plan B looks like a good one to me.
To Reader,
I don't think Curt Geiger lives in Ogden, but you would already know that.
Message to Reader,
Why don't you get the mayor to provide us with some financial feasibility studies (similar to what Weber State University did before they detemined that it was not in their best interest to sell the land to this scheme and like they did from by getting that report prepared by a neutral unrelated third party) and show us that the projects will work.
I'm tired of visions that rely on blind faith.
I'm also tired of being kept in the dark as to what things around this city really cost, i.e. the Rec Center.
I also want to know how the mayor justifies renting the Rec center to Fat Cats for $55,000 a month and yet the true cost of the rent is $200,000 per month in debt service to be paid by the city. Ogden residents will have to spend $145,000 per month to cover the short fall in the rent payment. The mayor has pledged revenues that would otherwise come to the city from the BDO development to make up this short fall. Those funds could have been spent within Ogden to either lower taxes and/or increase services.
Until I see some numbers that I can hang my hat on, I'm afraid I won't be able to see the "vision". I guess I've just been burned too many ties to believe people anymore when they say "trust me".
Reader, I guess I haven't spent enough time and effort trying to save two of the most desireable assets the city has,golf course and foothills on the east bench. You might as well inform the mayor that I will no longer be so complacent. You have inspired me to double my efforts from today forward. From now on I will be on it, like stink on sh#t. I'm going to volunteer my assistance to any and all parties that have the sense and willingness to rid Ogden of this insanity. Who wants to burn some gloves and coats on you-tube? We'll start with some Japanese brands and see where it goes from there.
Good dialogue, people. My thanks for that. I have no peoblem with someone assailing Wilkerson, once she went on public record, and presenting clean, facts, feelings, etc. I have no problem with debate on the gondola. I have no problem with much of what some of the "gentle readers" write.
My problem is that USUALLY, anyone who sides with the Administration, or supports any of the ideas of the Administration, winds up against the brick wall and shot....
at least here, on this blog.
This last go around has given me some hope and even some thought as to how to deal with some of the debatable problems that face our city. Curm, your reply was right to depth on much of this; "Anonymous" (right above), also something to chew on; this is how it should be, at least in my book. The "generalization" that anyone who supports the Administration needs to be shot, and usually is on this blog, ain't in the way I personally agree with. Debate, dialogue, discourse....we'll resolve our differences and problems using that kind of a system, rather than some brutal, "up against the wall" system that oftem seems so prevalent on these pages.
Just an observation from my perspective.
To Reader,
I for one look forward to hearing from those that have an open mind and a different perspectives than mine. I do thou, expect the like treatment from those that want to discuss issues.
I understand someone having a passion for an issue but I also expect that in their dialog, they have more to contribute then just that subjective position, particularly when they come to a debate on a topic. Facts that can be substanciated for example would be nice, rather than glaring generalizations.
My experience is that anyone that comes with an open mind and an informed position and who is willing to talk objectively, usually finds a civil, spirited and enlightening dialog at this site.
Ranting, open ended questions that go nowhere and irrational explainations are when the dialog breaks down. USUALLY in these cases it comes from a person or people that just comes to this site to antagonize the bloggers on the system at that time on a particular issue.
Reader:
You wrote: I understand someone having a passion for an issue but I also expect that in their dialog, they have more to contribute then just that subjective position, particularly when they come to a debate on a topic. Facts that can be substanciated for example would be nice, rather than glaring generalizations.
I could not agree more. So forgive me for noting that two years ago the Mayor and Lift Ogden floated the "concept" of a gondola for Ogden. No facts, no studies, no detail. And they could not even agree then on what "the concept" involved. I was at some of the early Lift Ogden meetings. I recall the first logo designed for the group. It showed a tram [not a gondola system], like the one at Snow Bird or the one at Albuquerque [which early LO pieces in the paper, one by Mr. Chapman, held up as "the" model for Ogden]. It was to connect Ogden directly with Snow Basin.
Oooops. Then Snow Basin said no. At about the same time, the Tram idea was dropped in favor of a gondola instead. In fact, two gondolas. Both of which depended on a Malan's Basin ski resort [only a "conceptual" artist's sketch provided] which depended on selling Mt. Ogden golf course plus about I think about 70 other acres of city owned public land on the benches, plus WSU land on the benches to Chris Peterson to develop a gated community of vacation villas and a redesigned golf course. Again, no details, no specifics, just general concepts.
The promised Peterson Proposal is now I think ten months beyond its latest promised date. Reader, all we've had from Godfrey, Lift Ogden, and Mr. Peterson are the "glaring generalizations" you mentioned above.
And the "concept" has changed in other ways. The Administration first touted the downtown to WSU gondola as a public mass tranist project. Then a Wasatch Front Regional Council feasibility study came out, indicating it would not work as public transit and that a trolley system or bus rapid transit system would be the wiser choice. So the concept changed. Now the Administration no longer presents it as a public transit project, but instead as primarily a tourist delivery system to service Mr. Peterson's as-yet unrevealed plans.
Have to tell, you Reader, it gets pretty frustrating when the Administration and Lift Ogden keep moving the goal posts [i.e. changing the concept] and loudly supporting a proposal that as yet does not exist on the record.
Even the Council members seem to be tiring of the charade. I attended one Council work session to devise a procedure to consider the un-submitted Peterson Proposal at which Ms. Van Hooser announced that she did not want to spend any more of the Council's time trying to prepare a review procedure for a proposal that had not yet been submitted by anybody to anybody. A lot of other heads around the table seemed to be nodding in agreement.
So, Reader, on this at least we can agree, I hope: the Administration, when it touts, as it endlessly does, "the gondola" should "have more to contribute than just that subjective position," and should offer "facts that can be substanciated... rather than glaring generalizations." I could not agree more. But so far as I can see, it has not yet even begun to do that... nearly two years into the public discussion it initiated.
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