There are two community events on calender for our Weber County Forum readers today, each of which centers on a topic which has been roundly discussed here on this forum from time to time.
Ogden River Project. First, we again remind our gentle readers that today has been designated as Emerald City River Restoration Celebration Day, which will be marked by festivities at the AmeriCan Complex, where Godfrey Administration officials and other dignitaries will be in abundance, slapping themselves on the backs and tub-thumping about the marvels of Big Government Central Planning. The Standard Examiner features an article about the underlying project in this morning's edition, which describes ambitious plans to clean up the Ogden River and to construct a 200-unit "village" development along the riverbank, ("Renaissance Village" as it's been dubbed) which will include the ubiquitous "trendy" lofts, restaurants and boutiques.
This project has been a long time in the making, and fraught with difficulties, as our regular readers already know. And for property owners in the area who've had their properties tied up with city-negotiated purchase options for almost six years, this project can't "happen" soon enough. We believe Ace Reporter Schwebke nicely (albeit briefly) captures the mood of some of these beleaguered property owners, at the foot of the article, with a few paragraphs and a pithy property owner quote:
Dave Sexton, who lives at 1887 Childs Ave., said he is upset that it has taken six years to reach agreement to sell his property as part of the River Project.And for more on the manner in which River Project Area property owners have been adversely affected by this project, don't miss yesterday's Salt Lake Tribune article, wherein Kristen Moulton gets down to the nitty-gritty.
However, he says he will be pleased when Leshem finalizes the purchase of his home in January for $110,000.
"It makes me happy to get the heck out of Ogden," he said, adding that he plans to relocate from the city once his home is sold.
If you're an Emerald City citizen and you'd like to attend this event, you may unfortunately be outta luck. Admission to this event is by ticket only; and according to our sources, all available tickets have already been snapped up. If you're not a Friend of Matt Godfrey (FOM), you probably won't be able to obtain a ticket. As we all know, Emerald City government is governed by Boss Godfrey's unique visionary oligarchy form of government; and if you're not already a certified FOM -- you're obviously one of the little people without a ticket. That's why we're highlighting today's second Emerald City event, of course:
WSU Political Decency Symposium. As reported in yesterday's Standard-Examiner, Weber State University’s Institute for Politics, Decency and Ethical Conduct will present the symposium “Decency in the Political Arena: Is it Really the Exception and Not the Rule?” today. Unlike the River Project event, this symposium is free, and open to the lumpenpublic, without the necessity of obtaining a ticket. For further detail we provide this link to the WSU website, which reveals several blue ribbon panels of eminent academics and local politicos who will be in attendance to discuss issues which are dear to our Weber County Forum hearts.
Frankly, we wish the promoters of today's two events had better coordinated their scheduling to avoid the calender overlaps. If there's anyone in Emerald City who could benefit from attendance at an ethics symposium, it's gotta be Boss Godfrey and his administration "empty suits." Unfortunately, he and his "A" Team have a calender conflict.
Update 12/8/07 2:04 p.m. MT: Both the Standard-Examiner and Salt Lake Tribune have follow-up articles on yesterday's River Project event, with stories by Kristen Moulton and Ace Reporter Schwebke, respectively. As an added bonus (we think,) the Std-Ex website has a somewhat jaggedly edited streaming video on the subject.
Std-Ex reporter Sam Cooper also provides a report on yesterday's WSU symposium.
We invite our readers who attended either of these events to provide their own first-hand reports, in the lower comments section.
57 comments:
Back in Bobby and Ethel Kennedy's heyday, you knew you'd made the Social Register if you were pushed into their Hickory Hill swimming pool.
Today, as RFK's ghost hovers over our much-ballyhooed downtown event -- no doubt murmurming "This is my beloved son; hear ye him" -- perhaps a fitting climax would be for some lucky vestal virgin to be ducked in the Ogden River. And who more worthy than Gadi?
Surely the mayor has been bending Gadi's ear (in between parcel give-aways) about Joseph Smith and the Restored Truth. This could even be a baptism. (Hint to Gadi: Smart business move!)
Well, it's not quite true that you had to be a FOM to get invited. The organizers have invited the entire boards of Weber Pathways and the Ogden Sierra Club--including me! I won't be able to attend, but two of my co-conspirators will be representing the Sierra Club.
I've also heard rumors that if you show up at 1:00 and behave yourself, you might be allowed in to hear the speeches even if you don't have a ticket. That's what happened at the last gala event at the American Can building. But I'm not in a position to really know about this, and Rudi's information may be more accurate than mine.
In any case, this is definitely a private event, not a public one. It's even sponsored by the newly privatized Ogden Community Foundation! Given the level of government involvement, the event really should be public. But this is how the mayor likes to operate.
Oh Dan, are you thinking that Godfrey should change his name to Mayor Scrooge? The way he operates, and the way he treats his constituents and best buddys, we should start calling him Mayor Scrooge.
I hear that Mayor Scrooge ordered a Angel Tree located in the Municipal Building removed. He hates Christmas, and the fact that others will help out their fellow man, he would rather give to his bestest cronies.
Interesting that they're saying nothing will actually start happening on the River Project for over a year, and that it won't be completed until at least 2014. That'll be 13 years after the city committed to the project by declaring the area blighted.
Meanwhile, the mayor continues to oppose a streetcar to WSU and McKay-Dee hospital because it would take at least 7 years to build. (The mayor claims 15-20 years.)
Dan:
First, thanks for posting the correction that others besides FOMs were included on the ticket distribution list.
I noticed in the paper today that plans for the river clean up [beyond general conceptual drawings like the one in this morning's paper] are a year away as well, so we won't have a very good idea of what's planned for the river until then.
I notice too that according to the story, the river clean up project is being planned separately from the Renaissance Village project. Different timetable, different funding, etc. That's encouraging, seems to me. Be interesting to see if anything more is presented at the Fest today than was in the paper this morning.
Looks like they got skunked on the weather. Which is unfortunate.
WHAT!?.... Oh, wait... sorry I just opened up the comments and the first thing I read Involved the mayor and 15 to 20 and I got excited. silly me.
Would that be 15-20 years of hard time in the pokey? Maybe he'll find out why they call it the pokey.
Cant wait to see Little Matty.
curm:
I certainly hope the river cleanup and the "village" development will be separate, but don't bet on it just yet. A lot could change over the next year (or however long it takes before we see the real plans). And the press release from Leshem's new development company makes every effort to tie the whole thing together.
Curmudgeon:
Check out the recreation and restoration examples at Your RiverRestoration.org. Looks like they've completed some worthy projects. Plus, Jason Carey's bio looks pretty substantial.
Todays article offers some intewresting verbage, re-align, designated fishing areas and construction of a water feature,(kayaking) I'm curious to find out just how far beyond clean-up they desire to go.
I sense that the reason for separating the project at this time and the very extended time frame is based on what they'll be allowed to do with the river. Fortunately lying little matty and cabal have no real authority in this regard, That's the reason their bringing Kennedy. If they can get Kennedy solidly on board his lobying would cerry much more weight than that of developement crazed local officials.
A genuine clean up and restoration project would be welcome and beneficial, but the verbage including the artificial water feature cause me wonder.
bill c.
Please check out the above mentioned RiverRestoration .org website and observe what's possible. Restoration doesn't happen quickly because there's too many concerns, such as: mitigation of runoff, riparian areas, vegetation, habitat, etc...
I believe the above concerns, and many others, need to be addressed prior to beginning the residential and commercial construction phases, if the Riverfront project is to be completed in a professional manner.
to The ghost of Christmas past said,.\
do you know why there is angels on Christmas trees? One day Santa was just having a bad day. All his rein deer ran off and the sled was broke and the toys were not put together right and then just when it was time to go and fly off in the sky, the sled rudder came off. Just at that moment a angel came out of heaven and ask Santa where do you want me to put the tree, and you know what Santa said to the angel?
Well now you know why there is angels on Christmas trees!
Birdlips:
Thanks for the pointer and link to RiverRestoration.org site.
Birdlips, I've checked out their website, and I also checked a couple of others. They're in business to make money, their following the desires of the one employing them. Do you believe they would include water features for commercial purposes without being asked? Does this concept fit within the guidelines of true river restoration?
I dont recall the story that you are telling.
Did Santa tell Godfrey to take down the Tree so that the less fortunate would not have a Christmas? Or Did he tell Godfrey to shove the tree up his a&* and change his name to Scrooge?
Perhaps the long schedule to complete the River project is being timed to coincide with Gadi's release from the California State Prison system so's that he can attend?
It is interesting that the Godfreyite's biz brain - Harmer - is finding it necessary to 'splain away just why Gadi - the indicted for fraud specialist from California - all of a sudden owns the RDA options in the River project that in some cases were wrestled away from the property owners under the threat of eminent domain action.
Appearing in today's Standard on-line under the midday news update is an article dealing with it. In the article Harmer 'splains:
"When the RDA began acquiring purchase options it was aware it probably wouldn't have the funding to close the deals and land owners would probably have to transfer the options to a single developer, Harmer said."
Hmmm. Isn't it fraudulent for an individual, or organization, to go around optioning properties when they know, or suspect, that they do not have the money to exercise said options and does not disclose this pertinent fact?
Was the city busy optioning properties when they knew full well that said options were going to be assigned to Gadi? If that is the case, then it seems that would be a material fact that should have been disclosed to the property owners. Was it? If not, do these property owners have a legal case against the city for misrepresentation?
It is pretty amazing the shear number of "misunderstandings" that go on in this city administration where some citizen of Ogden gets screwed and some friend of Matt's gets a pile of money.
It is also interesting how the Standard has not mentioned in this news cycle that Gadi is under indictment for a multi million dollar fraud. Seems pretty pertinent to me to have a guy so accused running around buying up properties, with the city's help, at the same time he is accused of stealing millions from another government agency. Could Ogden city be receiving stolen money in these behind closed door deals?
And did the RDA board (city council) know what Harmer and Gadi were up to on these sneaky option deals?
And Curmudgeon, on another note, did you know that the founder of the Mormon Church, Joseph Smith, was tarred and feathered once? It almost killed him and it took many months for him to recover.
New approach to the dog and pony show. No details. They must have learned something last time, reveal nothing, and you'll have to defend nothing.
Who could possibly be against the restoration of the Ogden River?
This time I guess they'll build massive public backing for the stated purpose before revealing any details. All we know is that in an effort to restore the river gadi will develope apprx. 80 acres.
Thats all folks.
bill c.
"They're in business to make money, their following the desires of the one employing them."
What complete buffoons they are for being in business and allowing that to happen.
"Do you believe they would include water features for commercial purposes without being asked? Does this concept fit within the guidelines of true river restoration?"
What's your point?. It’s my understanding that fish thrive in white water parks. Apparently the white water oxygenates the water, which the fish enjoy. I believe the kayak park will encompass about 100 feet on the river. There will be boulders added to the river to create the white water rapids. Doesn’t seem too invasive for a river restoration, to me. What’s your definition of true river restoration?
birdlips,
I won't try to answer for Bill, but my definition of true river restoration would include keeping the native vegetation along the banks. Do you know whether that's the plan, or do they intend to get rid of the cottonwoods and native shrubs?
Bird:
Agreed, Bird, that "being in business to make money" hardly disqualifies a developer as someone to be taken seriously. I certainly wouldn't want someone trying to develop the river project properties un-successfully, that is, unprofitably. [Note: this applies to commercial development of the acreage, not to the river restoration public works project. ]
Oz:
You ask: Isn't it fraudulent for an individual, or organization, to go around optioning properties when they know, or suspect, that they do not have the money to exercise said options and does not disclose this pertinent fact?
Oz, I don't know what Utah's commercial code requires [if there is someone in Utah property law, please fill us in]. And it may well be different state by state. But I think the answer to your question is "no, it's not fraud." When you sell an option on your land, you merely convey [for a price] the right to purchase that land for an agreed upon price by a date certain. If the option buyer fails to exercise the option by that date, the owner keeps the option price, keeps title to his property, and can negotiate with new buyers, that's all. And [unless there is something in the original option's language forbidding it], and option once granted may in some cases be a marketable "property" itself, which can be given or sold to anyone else who wanted to buy it from the original option holder. [Such a transfer would not change the terms of the option, the date certain to close or the purchase price of the land at all, so no harm to the original owner.] Unless, as I said, there are terms in the original option forbidding its transfer or sale to another party.
Perhaps other conditions apply when it's a public body [e.g. Ogden RDA] acquiring the option. I don't know. Hope someone who knows Utah property law can correct me if I'm wrong, or otherwise enlighten me on this.
Well Mr. Birdlips, untill we see some details it would be hard to say if their water feature is or is not condusive to what I would concider appropriate. The simple addition of a couple of boulders would probably not be such a harmfull thing, it also wouldn't be adequate to enhance kayaking, except for during the spring runoff.
Please keep in mind, this is not in any stretch of the imagination a kayak river, as much as you would like it to be, and no matter how sexy and high adventure lying little matty and gadi attempt to pitch it, it's just not. In fact Kennedy's first comment specificly about the Ogden River today, he refered to it as a creek.
As I said, it depends on how severe the changes they need to make to support any kayaking are before we can judge them.
And along the lines of Dan's comment/question, native vegetation as well as fish, mammal and other aquatic lifes migrations and use of the waterway. Many may not be aware of the beaver population along the course of the Ogden River, to me that represents quite a tale (tail) of survival and an opportunity to discuss the historical aspects of the river and area.
Also, we may want to concider the nature of the river itself. The character of a river is defined by the geology and topography of where it flows. Boulders are mainly something found in canyons, some fall into the river, others are left where they've always been but all smaller material has been carried away by the current. Cottonwood lined river bottoms in valleys are places where the rivers tend to slow and deepen. Deadfall would be the predominant facter in flow alterations, or human activity.
bill c.
"New approach to the dog and pony show. No details."
"All we know is that in an effort to restore the river gadi will develope apprx. 80 acres.
Thats all folks."
Uh, that’s not exactly true Bill. There were plans on display that laid out the River Restoration project. There were details on those plans that explained, with illustrations, what actions were needed to achieve the goals of the restoration. The engineer in charge of the restoration, and the architects, were all available to answer questions. You failed to talk to them. There was plenty of factual information available, which you apparently chose to ignore. You’re certainly entitled to your opinion, but you don’t get to make up the facts.
If it’s a dog and pony show, they sure fooled me and a lot of other people.
dan s.
I believe native vegetation is planned. I distinctly remember raspberries being mentioned and I think I saw an illustration of a cottonwood tree stuck into the back to stop erosion. Sorry I don’t have a list, but I’ll try to come up with one. I didn’t spend a lot of time looking at the plans, but I thought they were quite suitable for this stage of the project. I talked to the engineer, but not for long. I was interested in how storm runoff will be handled and also curious about the Kayak Park. Sorry I don’t have much of a firsthand report. So far, it looks like a sustainable development project to me. I’m a shade above cautiously optimistic.
Bill C.
“this is not in any stretch of the imagination a kayak river, as much as you would like it to be”
What are you talking about? I don’t kayak. I’m interested in improving the current ecology of the river and the sustainable aspects of the restoration project. I think the intention is to build a kayak park, not a kayak river. However, if you have a background in Hydrology, you probably know best.
Curmudgeon,
"Agreed, Bird, that "being in business to make money" hardly disqualifies a developer as someone to be taken seriously."
I was responding to Bill's comment about RiverRestoration.org, who may be in business because they're proud of the work they do, besides earning a living at it.
The Ogden Riverfront Development Company is a different "kettle of fish." I have no idea what their profit margin is, but I would be most comfortable if it was a non-profit venture whose main purpose was to restore and maintain the ecology of the river. I'm feeling somewhat uncomfortable with the process of the land acquisitions that we've all been reading about.
Birdlips, Like I've said, we're all for restoration, but what definintion do you apply to restore? Return to a former or natural state? What I am waiting to see is if the term restore is being used literally or as a ploy to enable something else.
If we hadn't been thru the last few years of this current administrations disengenuous, dishonest and manipulative mode of operation, I wouldn't be as suspicious, I would still be as concerned. If it were a truely honest endeavor, why all the fan fare at this early stage?
Curmudgeon
You're probably right about the option thing - as usual. However, my thoughts on the possibility of fraud in these options is centered on the city using the threat of eminent domain to force people into options for prices lower than they would normally sell their property for in a free market. That and the added element of a fat cat developer in the wings who was intended to be the real beneficiary of the option and yet does not have the eminent domain power themselves. On the face of it there seems to be some fraudulent intent, a common theme in most all of Godfrey's deals. In any event, it is shameful behavior for a city government to conspire against their own citizens in such a manner. Seems to me that a city government with any integrity at all would do what they could to get their citizens the best deals they could, not screw them for the benefit of some fat cat outsider.
Another shabby act was perpetrated on these people in today's invited event. Seems that none of the effected property owners were invited. This in spite of the fact that the whole damn deal is being built by exploiting these peoples equity in the properties. Add insult to injury - one of the common characteristics of the Godfreyites.
One other thing of noteworthyness, gadi thru nefarious city dealings, may have purchased the property, but he don't own the river.
It's ours not his, he's entitled to only the same voice as you or I.
It's my obligation to make sure my voice is heard, along with all other concerned citizens.
So, just for the record, as far as which definition of restoration I choose, return to a former more natural state fits quite nicely.
As for native vegetation, willows and the other types of plants that are indigenous to these riparian areas probably won't appeal to gadi development dream. To get a feel for what I'm talking about, consult your local angler.
While we're on the topic of water, word is, after the holiday/school being out season, they'll be shutting down the flow-rider for a yet to be determined amount of time.Seems in the rush to open the rec center early enough for the election season, or some serious cost cutting, corner cutting took place.
Could some project planner have overlooked the fact that the constant acidic humidity would be too much for regular old drywall and paint? They have to redo the whole room. I wonder if they planned on doing this every 6 months?
Oz:
You wrote: Seems to me that a city government with any integrity at all would do what they could to get their citizens the best deals they could, not screw them for the benefit of some fat cat outsider.
Now on that, you may be on to something. Seems to me, the question is this: were the city negotiators working to get options on properties in the River Project action as agents of Mr. Lesham and his associates? If not, there probably was not a problem, but if so, seems to me there definitely was one.
If the city people [public employees] were negotiating only for the city [not Lesham], seems to me they were obligated to offer the sellers fair market value for the land [always noting that determining FMV is an art, not a science, and there could be legitimate disagreement on both sides as to what FMV was for any given tract]. However, if the city negotiators were acting as agents of Mr. Lesham, all that changes. Mr. Lesham's interest was to get the properties for as little as possible to lower his costs and raise his potential profit, not to obtain for the property owners FMV. So if the city [public employee] negotiators were in fact acting as agents of Lesham and trying to get the properties for him for the lowest possible price, I see a clear ethical problem. [Whether it's also a legal one,I couldn't say. Don't know enough.]
In any case, regardless of whether the city negotiators were acting as Lesham's agents, the transfer of RDA [i.e. city-owned] options should have been known, before it happened and as it happened, to the City Council [aka RDA Board]. The SL Trib story says the Council was not aware of what was happening with those options until the process was well along. Which is another problem.
I see from the RDA Board agenda for the Dec 11th meeting that has just been sent out, the Board is going into this, and the problem is apparently making FMV values already agreed to known to owners of property who were still negotiating sales. To which I'd say simply that informing the Council [RDA Board] is not necessarily the same as making the information public. Going into executive session to inform them was clearly possible.
Once again, something that, seems to me, could and should have been handled simply and with full disclosure to the Council at least, has been converted by the Godfrey administration into a process needlessly secret, needlessly complex, and one skating on the ethical edge [so to speak]. And it was so unnecessary,just as the Administration's refusal to tell the Council who it wanted to sell the Bootjack property was unnecessary.
And whenever I see government --- at any level --- being unnecessarily secretive, I want to know why. And what it is they're hoping to keep quiet.
SL Trib story on Ogden River, Kennedy visit here. here.
And it contains interesting information not included in the the SE story SE this morning. For example, from the SL Trib story:
Kennedy said the restoration should include wide buffer zones for grasses and trees to help keep the river clean and its wildlife healthy. There should be no balconies or decks extending over the river, and minimal impervious surfaces, such as streets and parking lots, he said. The green spaces along the river should belong to the public, he said.
And this: In an interview, Kennedy said he is not "anointing" Leshem's project because he hasn't seen the plans.
"But it's hard to see what could be done to make it [the river] worse," he said....
Both stories contained Kennedy's comments on the economic good sense of good environmental policies:
Good environmental policy 100 percent of the time is good economic policy," Kennedy told area business leaders and community activists who gathered Friday to celebrate plans to restore a two-mile stretch of the river running through downtown.
But the Trib story hints that Mr. Lesham may not be as on-board on that point as Mr. Kennedy hopes. From the story:
He [Lesham] agreed with Kennedy that environmental and economic interests can be compatible. "But you have to find a balance," he said.
Hmmmmm.... Seems to be some daylight between Kennedy's insisting good environmental policy is good economics 100% of the time, and Lesham's "yes, but...." and saying the two "can be" compatible [not are 100% of the time], and "but you have to find a balance."
Kennedy seemed to be at best cautiously optimistic that this would all work out well. But he's coming back to check, and leaving people behind to keep an eye on things. From the Trib story:
Kennedy said the fact Leshem owns - or will own - much of the land along the waterway will make restoration much easier. Kennedy intends to return to Ogden and check on the project in three years.
Jeff Salt, the Great Salt Lakekeeper and a member of the board of Waterkeeper Alliance, said he will work closely with Leshem to make sure he "puts the river first."
Going to be interesting to see how this all works out. I hope Mr. Lesham is sincere about his plans to restore the river in an environmentally sound way, and about involving community groups in the planning and execution of the river restoration. I truly do. And I hope he can bring the Mayor around to the same POV. [He may have his work cut out for him there.]
Just a couple of quick observasions.
The couch in the standard photo was not there Wed.
The little bus tour prior tp the big kick off never went to Washington Blvd. where Kennedy could have seen first hand that a public corridor, was nor is part of the plans these guys are entertaining. The Bingham Cycle Building is so close to the bank that you could spit on it.
Both articles failed to mention the main point.
It will take Gadi Leshem until 2009 to START the project because it will take that long to try to bamboozle the city council into assuming all of the financial risks on the project while leaving all the potential gain to fall to Leshem.
This is the way the Salomon Center was done, and the way the attempt to add three floors to the Landmark Building was done. The really bad city council we used to have voted for the first one; the better city council we had later rejected the second.
Since the present council looks more like the second than the first, Leshem knows he has at least a year's worth of work to do in terms of conning them. He needs to get to know these a-holes to learn the ropes:
Opheikens is chairman of the board of R&O Construction. Kier is president of Kier Construction. Wadman is CEO of Wadman Corporation.
Bill:
Interesting points, Bill, in re: the couch and the tour missing Bingham's Bankside Bikery. Surely you're not suggesting that the couch was part of a staged photo op?
Nevertheless, if the city and Mr. Lesham have a common interest in seeing that the river in adjacent to Mr. Lesham's planned development is restored properly [unlike what may be going on on the bankside not controlled by Mr. Lesham], then it would be a good thing for us all if they cooperated toward that end. We benefit by a restored clean pleasant Ogden river retaining such natural elements as are possible in an urban downtown river. Lesham benefits by having adjacent to his development an attractive park-like river walk likely to increase the value of his condos/apartments. If it works out that way, win - win seems to me.
Lot's of predictions and angst already up on the board. Seems a little premature to me. Lesham's made a public commitment to a public riverside with an emphasis on restoration and preserving/restoring a natural setting suitable for an urban river. Mr. Kennedy's group has endorsed the concept, hooked up a local ally to monitor and be involved in the planning. And we've all be alerted that the "save the Ogden River downtown" project is underway, so we [and the press] can watch as it unfolds. I'd still say "cautious optimism" is the right course for the present.
Good Old (?) Curmudgeon is cautiously optimistic, while he counsels against premature angst being expressed by those who have been under the stubborn socialistic rule of Lying Little Matty Gondola Godfrey's forehead since 1999 and have no cause to treat anything the weeny liar says with anything but comtempt and guffaws. At this stage in the river game, he's right, of course. Nonetheless, maybe Lying Little Matty could have used his gargantuan forehead to divine the value of the Ogden River eight years ago, instead of spending all his time touting the robbery of public lands by his potential gay European lover and leader of his own famed Squirrel Patrol, Wayne Peterson, in order to facilitate the stupidest thing in the history of the state of Mo-dom (according to a governor's cabinet-level staff member): THE GONDOLA. Isn't that rich? Brave Squirrel Patrollers, men and women, have pledged their oaths, their onions and their blood for a circus ride. How silly and twisted. But, in this case, the Human Switzerland is in proper neutral territory.
I looked for you Dan, at the 'event'. We were invited...my ticket giver wasn't around, and no one was asked to show a ticket! So, y'all could've shown up.
We were served hot chili, bread, teensy bites of cake and water. Kennedy was impassioned as one would expeact him to be. Gadi spoke...the acoustics were terrible, and with his foreign accent, I probably got 1/4 of what he said. However, I did hear him say that once he saw the river, he just had to buy property here!
Chris Peterson walked up to me and we chatted...I'm always nice on Fridays.
Anyway, Chris said, " I wonder if he'll show us his plan?" Me: "Who?"
Chris: "Mr. Lesham".
Me: "Well, Chris, I'm more interested in hearing YOUR plan.....the one we've been waiting for for over 2 years...do you have a plan?"
Chris: smiling..."Well, I have to go back to the drawing board."
Me; "Yes...I know that this city has been divided for over 2 years now, and no one wants you to put one thing in our Mount Ogden area!....The people area angry, and it just isn't going to happen!"
Chris: smiling...
Me:...Layton, Farmington, Riverdale, Mtn Green and Morgan have all had mud slides, and a million dollar home in Morgan cracked...being buiilt up on the slope."
Chris:.."I was in an airplane, using infra red lenses, looking at these areas in Mtn Green and Peterson and around here years ago for my father-in-law, and I identified a lot of place that were unstable and it wouldn't be safe to build on."
Me:..."And it isn't safe to build anywhere upslpoe of Mount Ogden Park, etc,....the folks are angry...but, I do know where you should build your homes"...and then proceeded to give him the location. I told him that just last week, I had said to my husband.."This is where Peterson needs to build his homes"...he seemed interested.
Anyway...he's back to the drawing board..I asked him if he'd read the paper and seen that the Forest Service is going to protect the land? The masses are going to take up pitchforks and torches if he and Godfrey keep trying to pull a fast one on us again.
It's interesting that he knows the 'hot spots' and yet wanted to go ahead and make a killing (in more ways than one?) by desecrating our beautiful treasure.
So, Kennedy says the riverfront should attract all types of folks to enjoy the walk...and Gadi knew a good thing when he saw it!
bill c
Birdlips, Like I've said, we're all for restoration, but what definintion do you apply to restore? Return to a former or natural state?
One simplistic definition, from Hydrologist Dave Rosgen is a scientifically based approach to stream and river restoration that basically “re-creates it’s natural dimension, pattern, and profile.” A holistic approach to the river’s restoration would involve taking into account the river’s entire watershed. The water entering the river is affected by the development in the watershed area. Storm runoff has erosion and pollution effects. Motor oil, pesticides, herbicides, and etc. from vehicles, homes and businesses, impacts the health of the river, repeatedly.
Stream bank erosion can be addressed with various methods. One method, mentioned earlier, is to take live willow or cottonwood cuttings and drive them into the riverbank. This provides structure for the bank like re-bar provides structure for concrete. That detail was on the displayed plans at the “Celebration.” Oops, you claimed there were no details.
Pollution that enters the stream can be dealt with many ways. One way is to construct “bio-swales” that slow down the flow of storm run-off. The run-off then flows through vegetation before it slowly percolates into the ground. The plans at the “Celebration” contained an interesting storm drain solution. It’s basically a culvert with a fountain that oxygenates the run-off water prior to it’s entry to the river. Uh, that’s another detail you ignored. If you want to see another method, check out flowforms. I’d really like to see a flowform installed in one of the parks along the river.
What I am waiting to see is if the term restore is being used literally or as a ploy to enable something else.
Why wait? Tone down some of your rhetoric and engage in a factual discussion. It may spread.
If we hadn't been thru the last few years of this current administrations disengenuous, dishonest and manipulative mode of operation, I wouldn't be as suspicious, I would still be as concerned. If it were a truely honest endeavor, why all the fan fare at this early stage?
I’ll agree with you that the current administration’s past performance merits considerable suspicion. Since ORDC is an ally of Mr. Godfrey’s, I’m trying to embrace the Russian proverb: “doverai, no proverai” (trust, but verify.) Remember that? To be “cautiously optimistic,” as per Curmdudgeon’s earlier comment, is my daily credo.
The “fan fare” is to get the community involved and, of course, to sell the project. Communities can restore their rivers with the help of schools, businesses and local citizens. They have river clean-up days where volunteers patrol the river with trash bags and come-a-longs. Other community based help has addressed the problems of erosion and/or loss of vegetation with various methods. One tasteful method is to make “soil burritos” and place them at the base of the riverbank, next to the water. They eventually become “vegetable burritos.” Muy bueno!
"I’ll agree with you that the current administration’s past performance merits considerable suspicion. Since ORDC is an ally of Mr. Godfrey’s, I’m trying to embrace the Russian proverb: “doverai, no proverai” (trust, but verify.) Remember that? To be “cautiously optimistic,” as per Curmdudgeon’s earlier comment, is my daily credo. "
Indeed, Birdlips, you've hit the nail on the head, I think.
Many of our readers consider Boss Godfrey to be the ultimate contrarian indicator; and of course the suspicion spills over to anyone who's remotely allied with him.
The obvious solution for Mr. Lesham, we think, is to be open and transaparent as possible, with repect to his plans for the river and tha associated "village" development project. Hopefully he won't just fade into the woodwork now that the Friday ceremony is over, but rather be proactive and reveal as much information as he can, as soon as possible.
An informational website, perhaps? Mr. Leshem is a resourceful fellow, and it would be easy enough for him to come out from under Godfrey's shadow of suspicion, I believe... if he's so inclined.
Thanks for the additional info, Birdlips...
And welcome to Weber County Forum.
bill c.
Could some project planner have overlooked the fact that the constant acidic humidity would be too much for regular old drywall and paint? They have to redo the whole room. I wonder if they planned on doing this every 6 months?
Depends on who drew up the plans and specifications and how they were adhered to. Mold issues would certainly compound the alleged problem.
bill c.
You wrote: Boulders are mainly something found in canyons, some fall into the river, others are left where they've always been but all smaller material has been carried away by the current.
Did you know that strategically placed boulders, in streambeds, can aid the restoration of the natural structure of pools and riffles in streams. Trout love that stuff. I’m sure you’ve seen them hanging out and “breathing.” As I mentioned earlier, there was an illustrated detail of planned boulders that are part of the Kayak Park. The river and the trout should come first, if kayakers get a benefit, good for them.
One of the ORDC goals is to create fly fishing holes. That was another detail on the plans that you, unfortunately, missed. IMHO, The Ogden River is basically a World Class fly-fishing river that ranges, possibly, from average to poor condition.
bill c.
You wrote: The Bingham Cycle Building is so close to the bank that you could spit on it.
I noticed that and it made me wonder how close the next phase of commercial buildings will be. Ogden’s Planning Department has apparently commenced the River Development without restoration ideals. Bingham Cyclery may have missed an opportunity to be good stewards of the river. I wonder how their storm drain has been engineered. Surface runoff from their parking lot is a concern. Too bad they didn’t construct a bio-swale.
Rudizinc,
Many of our readers consider Boss Godfrey to be the ultimate contrarian indicator; and of course the suspicion spills over to anyone who's remotely allied with him.
The obvious solution for Mr. Lesham, we think, is to be open and transaparent as possible, with repect to his plans for the river and tha associated "village" development project.
Well said. “Open and Transparent!” could become a continuous mantra for this forum. Perhaps Mr. Lesham will lead the way with Mr. Godfrey eventually following. I can see bumper stickers and lapel pins. Hand them out to city officials, repeatedly.
Hopefully he won't just fade into the woodwork now that the Friday ceremony is over, but rather be proactive and reveal as much information as he can, as soon as possible.
An informational website, perhaps? Mr. Leshem is a resourceful fellow, and it would be easy enough for him to come out from under Godfrey's shadow of suspicion, I believe... if he's so inclined.
An informational website is a superb idea. Mr. Lesham could even contract locals to build such a site, and help stimulate Ogden’s economy. (win/win?) People notice that stuff. The Ogden City website could link to it. Other cities have done such things. Reno comes to mind.
Thank you for the welcome, it’s an honor to participate. And, thank you for creating and maintaining Weber County Forum.
Dear, Mr. Birdlips, I did go thru thr restorer's display quite abit. It was a godd presentation of techneques and thing they use to mitigate,(restore) damage. When I voice disapproval of would be the lack of specifics as to how and where they would apply in this case.
Not unlike the famous invisible never to be seen plan of the patagonia vest wearing thorazine depository that travels the world with lying little matty. Where some plans?
Believe me, I have no doubts as to the ability and expertice of the restorer, I just have doubts about what he'll be paid to do.
Regarding the placement of the Bingham bike shop, I had a long conversation with uncle gregory peccary montgomry over a year ago about the lack of conserving the riparian corridor thru the river project. My suggestion was to try and continue the same type of thing that exists between Harrison and Monroe. A long river parkway, continuous. Neddless to say he told me that was not in the cards and not appropriate for the downtown portion of his nephew's vision. Not economically what they had in mind.
I loved it when right there in the paper, Kennedy said essentially the very same thing.
I hope for all of us, public pressure can force proper descisions with regards to this river undertaking, I can't wait to see if kennedy suggeating the same thing I did a year ago can't persuade them.
One last thing, from the spillway to Monroe, the river is a fantastic fishery and there are also alot of very large browns in the lower portions as well. Altering the cottonwood lined river bottoms for the sake of pursuing a perception of a mountain stream is akin to thinking all birds should be eagles.
Oh, and sorry, My spelling can be bad at times, the last post extremely, I was on the phone in the dark.
Squirrel Patrol alert!
Poor unsuspecting readers of the Weber County Forum are again subject to phony effrontery perpetrated by a brave soldier in Wayne Peterson's famed Squirrel Patrol.
Yes, this Birdlips fellow or madame is merely a Leshem plant attempting Geigerian Internet subterfuge.
He or she knows damn good and well there is a web site (albeit poorly constructed and amateurish) about the alleged multimillion-dollar felony fraudster from California who is a pal of Lying Little Matty Gondola Godfrey's forehead and THE SKI IS BEAUTIFUL BLUE's and who is perpetrating this "project:" www.dialogden.com.
A win-win, eh? I note that dialog is an accepted spelling of the word in the dictionary, but I do not acquiesce.
Furthermore, your sophomoric attempt at painting yourself as some sort of neutral party is blatantly evident when you spout all these "details" about "the project" and claim not to be a close associate of the Lilliputian sociopath who governs OTown, when in fact you likely dine on onions with him and THE SKI IS BEAUTIFUL BLUE on Thursdays at Rooster's (a joint upon which I urge a townwide ban; these people are known Lying Little Matty Gondola Godfrey sycophants, even though when he dines there he leaves a $2 tip on a $50 tab; you asshats!).
Another tell-tale sign is the use of the word "engage." That is in the preferred military vernacular of Wayne Peterson's famed Squirrel Patrol and is employed rather regularly by Captain Short-deck of said regiment.
Birdlips is quite reminiscent of a clown named Ben Lomond who apparently loves a certain ski pole and waterski maker (which, coincidentally, manufactuers nothing in Otown, but rather has an administrative office here) known far and wide as Goodie.
Yeah, read that site and you'll discover the same Gondola Lift Reich propoganda: "renaissance," "major ski companies such as Snowsports Interactive and Nidecker," ad infinitum.
If Birdlips were not a Squirrel Patroller, he or she would not know so much about this "project" and its carpetbagging a-hole from California who is making a killing by defrauding property owners with the implicit aiding and abetting of Lying Little Matty Gondola Godfrey's uncle's department.
Next time you're in church with addled Ed Allen, Otown's biggest joke, Birdlips, ask him to pray to keep "the momentum" of Leshem's "project" in God's Good Graces so that we can build a Wal-Mart on Leshem's and Thorazine-addled, vest-wearing a-hole Wayne's FrontRunner property.
Taco sauce.
Good morning, I forgot to mention that the strategicly placed couch was not there saturday when I drove by. There were some tracks in the mud and snow, I suppose since it was only placed there for a one day purpose I should not assume it rises to the criminal level of litter. Cops were probably too busy getting a jump on Dec. ticket quota to investigate.
How is it that all these hand picked beneficiaries of lying little matty's projects present their grand schemes in such a foreign and out of character style?
South Tyrolian, Tuscan. What about something that more reflects the character of Ogden, Utah or the west? If all these lying little matty supporters love Ogden so much, why are the trying to totally remake it's character and image? Note to gadi and wayne peterson, this is not Tuscany or Tyrolia, this is Ogden Ut. We have a pretty long history and character of our own, and it's unique, even for Utah.
If you aren't already aware:
Wreaths Across America Remembrance
Monday, December 10th, 11:00 A.M.
State Capitol Fountain area - North side between the East and West Buildings.
✯Honoring our fallen comrades and their families during the holidays.
✯Terry Schow will represent the Governor.
✯Following the program the wreath will be taken to the Vietnam
Memorial where it will remain during the holidays.
“Public invited! Hope to see a great turnout of veterans from all organizations. Please pass the word to everyone you possibly can. Thank you.”
✯✯Let's seriously think about making this an annual project for the Veterans Cemetery. Dennis Howland
Coordinator: Dennis Howland - VFW Dept. Judge Advocate/Post 1481
Quartermaster"
‘Tis a busy season and everyone can think of a dozen reasons why they can’t go, but consider this:
These men and women whom we will be honoring made the ultimate sacrifice – they laid down their life for you! Can’t you take an hour or two to attend the “Wreaths Across America” Remembrance Monday?
Sorry for the late notice -- there was a miscommunication between Rudi and me. I sent the info to him last Tuesday and thought that he was going to put it on the blog. I've been watching, but haven't seen it, so I'm posting it now. If I missed it and Rudi has already put it on the blog, please forgive for mentioning it again -- just consider it a reminder.
bill c.
I share the same concerns about the riparian corridor and, I too, am wondering about the dueling versions of “buffer zones.” Therefore, I propose continued vigilance on your part, and additional vigilance from all concerned citizens. Perhaps another patrol could be created to combat any negative actions of the so-called Squirrel Patrol. A worthy name is paramount. Muskrat Patrol? Beaver Patrol? Eagle Patrol? Brown Patrol? Got any ideas? Do you own a camera? Are you familiar with YouTube?
I’m not convinced that restoring the river by altering the current river bottom is a bad thing. I’ve been reading about river restorations. Increased stormwater run-off along a river corridor, from roofs, roads, parking lots and other impervious commodities can be responsible for altering the river bottom and the course of the river. I’m going to remain cautiously optimistic that the commitments that were made, are adhered to. A good job for members of the new patrol would be to question any deviations. Perhaps you could be the founding father.
P.S. No worries about the spelling. However, are you aware that your keyboard has a return key? (Sorry, I don’t do emoticons very well)
jason w.
It’s apparent that your ignorance is exceeded by your arrogance. You know nothing about me. Clean the spittle from your keyboard, step away from the computer, unclench your fists and get a grip on reality. Then, perhaps, we can have an intelligent and reasonable discussion.
Otherwise, piss off.
Ahh, yes, brave Squirrel Patroller, you are wrong: I know plenty about you, and you know who I am, I'm certain. I've been outed plenty on this blog -- of course the most evil of Lying Little Matty Gondola Godfrey's henchmen know who I am -- yet you are some obsequious Birdlips fellow or dame, who just so happens to know everything there is to know about that a-hole Californian fraudster's "project" that will clean up our disgraceful river. I have to laugh at your castigation of Ozboy for hiding behind Internet on-screen anonymity, when that is what you Squirrel Patrollers do best: make anonymous chicken-shit moves and threats, then turn your backs with cell phones handy when confronted with the ugly truth or, better yet, accuse the accuser of being chicken-shit. And then there's your self-righteous blather about him inserting "bastards" into your banal posts, and your meager attempts at distancing yourself from this alleged criminal from Cal-i-for-niya and his use of city staff bullies to acquire our land on the cheap. What, pray tell, is your interest in the Ogden River, in Ogden generally, and in the destruction of our squirrel population?
Steak fries.
jason w.
Uh, I don’t own a cell phone. One man’s blather is another man’s food for thought. Your blather is unique. It’s pathetic and laughable at the same time. And, strangely entertaining.
You continue to make unfounded assertions. Take a few deep breaths and relax. Then, inform yourself as to what I have already stated about my intentions regarding the river. Then, check out the “bastards” thread. Do you know the difference between objective and subjective? Opinion and fact? Your ongoing rants keep a lot of people from participating in a meaningful discussion.
What, pray tell, is your interest in the Ogden River, in Ogden generally, and in the destruction of our squirrel population?
In a nutshell, I’m a proponent of sustainable development and smart growth, with a strong inclination towards natural building techniques. I connected with the river years ago and want a responsible restoration. I live here. I think one of Ogden’s biggest mistakes was losing Rocky Anderson. Nobody’s perfect.
Jason
Let's assume for a moment that you are correct about Birdlips being a Godfreyite. So what? I wonder what is wrong with having a civil dialogue with him - or them. After all, they are a fact of life here in the land of Oz, and they do have the reigns of power.
Hell man, there ain't nobody that has more contempt for Godfrey and how he operates than me, but I can't see anything wrong with talking openly with his disciples about what's going on. I think it is only the Little Lord and a small handful of his henchmen that are truly corrupt. The rest of the Godfreyites are probably decent folks that have been misled by his pie in the sky bull shit. There are a bunch of them that I actually like! That includes Bobby G, Patterson, Glasmann and Prisbry (the only ones I really know). I think they are full of shit biz wise, but they are interesting and good people other than that. As to Godfrey hisself, I'd just as soon spit in the punks eye as look at him!
So how about giving Birdlips the benefit of the doubt - as long as he is straight with us that is.
Ozboy:
Your continued defense of your little pal, Short-deck, is intolerable. I won't give Glasmann a pass, either, because he shat all over me and my friend on this blog -- people he has known for decades, rather than the moron Squirrel Patrollers he has met these past couple of years -- in a cowardly, anonymous act of deference to Lying Little Matty Gondola Godfrey. As to me being pathetic and laughable at the same time: so? Birdlips can think anything he or she wants of me. But I do like laughing at clowns like your great, civic-minded little friend, Short-deck, who cowardly skulks about anonymously, trying to remove people's livelihoods who call him out on his bull shit. (Then he has the freaking gall to call them chicken-shit to their faces when in fact they showed up to his face to explain why they called him chicken-shit.) Your friend Short-deck is worse than the Lying Lilliputian, and I feel sorry for you that you can't see it.
Dog food.
Well Jason, if I had the same experience with Bobby as you have I would no doubt feel the same as you do. Fortunately I didn't. I don't know him very well, it's not like we hang together or anything, but I have had a couple of entertaining discussions with him and found him to be rather interesting and pretty bright. I'm not saying that he ain't bat shit crazy, he may very well be, but in the words of an old friend of mine: "that don't make him a bad guy!"
As far as me being "intolerable", well now you're sounding like my mother, and that might be bordering on intolerable!
On the subject of Glasmann. He and I go back many years. Had a lot of laughs and good times with him in those days. He is, and will continue to be, a friend even though we don't hang together anymore and are not likely to as long as he works for the dark side. I wouldn't want to get him fired you know. Glasmann did piss me off in a big way over that whole council thing a couple of years ago, but hey that is ancient history and everything worked out for the best in any event. I guess I have a higher (or lower) forgiveness capacity than you do?
We are all just doing the best we can with what the good lord gave us to work with after all is said and done. (Except for the little lord that is who is just plain evil)
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