The Marquess of Queensbury rules will be in effect
It never ceases to amaze us to observe how every discussion thread develops a life of its own, here at Weber County Forum.
What started out as just another ho-hum garden-variety expose of yet another Boss Godfrey prevarication in yesterday's article, has now carromed off into a heated discussion on the topic of illegal immigration.
While we're tempted to avoid the conversation altogether (we have gentle and delicate sensibilities, after all,) we're going to temp fate, throw a little more fuel on the fire, start a new thread and link a Standard-Examiner Op-Ed piece which appeared in this morning's edition:
The Day Without Farm Workers
We believe that the "illegal immigration issue" is highly nuanced, and that the above article reveals one chink in the armor of those who would opt for draconian police state action against the 12-20 million illegals who've unlawfully crossed our borders, and attempted to live "the American Dream."
We also believe this article reveals one of the practical nuances which argues against neat & clever solutions to the "illegal alien problem."
Do you like peaches that have the taste and texture of cardboard? That's the fundamental question that Farmer Masumoto asks of us.
What do our gentle readers think about this?
Make your arguments and post your links, gentle readers. We know this is a hot-button topic for many of you.
We may decide to move a few of your comments from the previous thread here, just to kickstart this discussion, BTW.
Please promise though, as you enter into this potentially inflammatory invited discussion, that you'll all kiss and make up in the morning -- Smooch!
Update 5/19/07 10:36 a.m. MT: At risk of further stirring the pot, we post an interesting article on the proposed "immigration reform" bill at Townhall.com, where there's a very lively reader discussion in progress.
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71 comments:
I'll only 'kiss and make up' if you'll respect me in the morning.
I don't think I've suggested meat clever tactics...but we better wake up!
Don't worry about 'police state' actions against illegals...our police chief won't even ID them.
BTW, Curm...I didn't bring up 'agricultural workers'.
I was speaking of Americans working!
Not only should we not be dolng out welfare checks to illegals, we need to shut down the cash flow to our own able bodied who are on the dole.
I think that if a doctor was on call ( in place) in our welfare offices to give a health check up to those in line for their generational welfare check and they were deemed fit to work...then THAT check is their last!
Patterson is concerned that the jobless 'homeless' are 'peeing' on our downtown streets. Well, put 'em to work. Maybe they could hose down said streets?
C'mon...you don't think the 'healthy' but lazy among us wouldn't find honest work if the welfare was drastically reduced?
I've cleaned houses and delivered papers. It wasn't demeaning work, but it augmented our household earnings. With 7 kids, that extra income was needed.
To America's shame we have generations on welfare...food stamps, and ADC. Free babysitting after the free 'birthings'.
Go ASK for a job! Be creative. "Necessity IS the mother of invention".. and hunger is a great motivator to get to work!
And, if illegals can find such work that Americans won't do, then I guess the jobs ARE there, aren't they?
When illegals break the law (again), they already did by coming in here illegally, they must be deported. Not in a jail cell til they go to court, then out on the streets again.
Just watch how many are responsible for crime in Utah. See how many are in gangs, selling, making and taking dope! Shooting each other's brains out, and then getting free medical services til they're well enough to be out on the streets again.
Enough already.
I just want to get my foot in the door of your country, Sharon, so that I can raise the capital to manufacture perpetual motion machines.
I have an engineering design for this.
Sharon:
The majority of the people, nationwide, on some kind of assistance [welfare] are composed of two groups: those with health or disability problems that make working difficult if not impossible, and those with children, small children, who need to be cared for and cannot be left alone. A single mother with several small children might pass your health check, but unless there was daycare available for her kids, she could not go to work. And federally subsidized day care, which would enable more single women with children to work, is ususally opposed in Congress as "more welfare."
Most people on welfare who are able bodied, by the way, are there for only a relatively short time, until they can either get training that enables them to find a job that can support themselves and their children [and yes, welfare support for someone while they get training is a wise investment of public funds], or until they can find work that will make up for the medical coverage they lose if they earn too much. Last time I checked, the average time people not disabled stayed on public assistance was, as I recall, about a year and a half. The system is meant to be, for the non-disabled, a short term safety net when the bottom falls out of peoples' lives for one reason or another. And for most of the non-disabled on welfare, that is exactly what it is and how it works.
Some women stay on welfare longer do so only because taking a minimum wage job would eliminate welfare-linked health care for their children. We've so arranged some of the laws that they actively discourage people from leaving welfare to take work. They and their children are penalized for it.
The myth... and it is a myth... that most people on welfare are able-bodied folk out to live large on the public, free of charge, is unfortunately widespread, thanks to politicians who believe they can win votes by campaigning against "welfare queens" and such like. Again, any examination of the numbers on welfare and the reasons they are, refute the myth.
As for those you want to deny any support if they pass a health check, the winos, etc: a sadly large number of them are not only veterans but war veterans, who came home damaged in ways I don't pretend to understand. You may be willing to cut them off and watch them starve [though I doubt that], but I am not. Not to mention one likely result of your suggestion would be to run the crime statistics up. Desperate men --- and women --- do desperate things. The minimum monthly assistance check is a very very small fraction of the cost of incarcerating someone over the same period. A very small fraction.
Are there people who abuse the system? Of course. There are crooks everywhere. Including in the poshest country clubs and most exclusive presidential receptions [can we all say Ken Lay together now?] But no system, of any kind, public or private, physical, economic or social, runs at 100 percent efficiency. Ever. Anywhere.
The problems of welfare and the drifting indigent homeless, sadly, are not a simple problem either. We've made some progress. The welfare reform put through under a Republican Congress and Democratic President [Clinton] has brought some of the numbers down, by providing short term day care, health care, and other support to people who take training, etc. to enable themselves to get off welfare and support themselves and their families. That is in fact the goal, as every study shows, of the great majority of non-disabled who find themselves on welfare for a time. They want off as soon as they can make it happen.
There is still work to do, and no matter how good such "workfare" programs are, they will never address the majority of people on welfare who are there primarily for disability reasons of one sort or another.
I think Dorothy and Sharon both need a nap, or maybe a couple of Valuim and a long nap. They both get way too much of their "information" from Fox news and some of these other alarmist right wing nut case radio talking heads.
They also both seem to forget that our great grandparents stole this land from the Mexican's to begin with in 1848. Then they and our grandparents proceeded to marginalize and ghettoize the local Mexican populations and make them second class citizens in the very land that they stole from them.
Now a few lilly white and way to previledged packs of Gringo decendants are getting their panties in a knot over a few poor but honest latinos that want a little slice of that great American Dream and are willing to actually work for it. How much more American can it get than that?
Like i said, the lord luvs them, all of em, and if they are good enought for the Lord they be good enough for this simple uninformed and unneducated hick from the land of Oz.
Why is it that when the white man took this county over from the american indians that they could not stop that from happening? The answer is this, the indians did not have strick enough immigration Laws. It looks like the history has and is repeating itself, but this time the Desendants of the Indians are reclaiming their land which we stole form them. I wish that Arnold the govenator could run for president then we could have a real nation of immigrants tell us what to do and by the way wasn't it sen hatch that want to change the constitution so that can happen???
Oz:
"A few poor but honest latinos that want a little slice of that great American Dream."
A few? The current estimate is 12 million illegals in the country. I don't care how you slice and dice that number, it's not a "few."
Wildly exaggerated understatement on one side is no more justified than wildly exaggerated overstatement on the other.
I saw a story the other day about a man who started a business and he only hires the 'unemployable'. The 'bums', 'winos', society's undesirables.
Every last one of these people that this benefctor has put to work is thriving! Each has regained his dignity. Each has hope in his future. Each has had someone place faith in them and put THEM TO WORK.
How gratifying is that? They aren't handed welfare checks anymore to wallow in their misery...to be 'winos' as you put it. These were the ones who Patterson and Godfrey are afraid will shock the sensibilities of the genteel Frontrunner riders!
Honest work is enobling. It strengthens one's confidence. Now these 'rescued' souls CONTRIBUTE.
Don't most of have a deep need to COUNT?
I wish I could recall the story better....and tell about the fellow who is giving his fellow citizens their lives back. HE was a down and outer also. Perhaps someone on here will recall the particulars?
In the olden days before our gov't told us we were entitled to be fed and clothed by the sweat of our neighbors' brows , women often helped their neighbors by 'tending' (a Utah expression) their children. The 'tender' was paid, and the mother worked. Some women, as now, ran daycare centers in their homes...benefitting themselves and the other working parents. Some neighbors were repaid in kind.
About the fellow with the orchard who relied on those illegal immigrants to harvest his peaches:
Many years ago in Ventura County, CA I rec'd a call from a friend who said that another woman had stopped at a roadside vegetable stand run by some Japanese farmers. The Japanese were devasted that their 'farm hands' had not shown up for picking the tomatoes. If the tomatoes were not picked that day, they would be lost.
So, this woman (Mary) called other women who in turn called other women and men, and soon the Japanese farmers had more than enough 'neighbors' picking the tomatoes! This telephone 'tree' put the word out in several little towns around the tomato farm.
Then the Japanese farmers turned around and sold the lugs of tomatoes at a reduced price to any who wanted them!
I canned twelve lugs of tomatoes that day! (I wasn't one of the pickers).
My point is that sometimes getting the word out of a neighbor's distress will bring the needed help and relief.
I bet that if this orchard owner did what these women did for the Japanese farmers...putting out an SOS at the employment office...to neighbors..thru the shelters...schools....he'd have plenty of help. They wouldn't come and pick for free as the tomato harvesters did, but he would pay them.. Just as he would have paid his 'immigrant' pickers.
Illegals could stop having 'anchor babies' at the American taxpayer's expense. Speaking of being creative....the illegals in a town back east have banded together to draw up papers of who should care for their children if they are deported! Now, that's planning for a 'rainy' day.
I bet that kind of ingenuity could be put to use in bettering their native countries. Helping themselves, helping their countrymen.
It's insulting that you lump our vets in with those who won't work. Many of our vets need care. But, many also need to be valued as contributors...don't take away their dignity by implying that they have no more use to society!
Curm...don't bother...you and Ozboy commiserate and stanch the flow from your bleeding hearts. I'm taking Ozboy's counsel.....going to bed.
If you are a true American, you:
-Enter America through due process.
-Speak English (or make it a point to do so).
-Sing our National Anthem in English.
-Gain employment legally.
-Pledge allegiance to one flag: the US Flag.
-Press 1 for English.
-Obtain a valid social security number.
-Invest your earnings back into the American
economy, not another.
-Don't take advantage of programs designed to
assist people in need.
-Don't encourage bilingual printing.
-Denounce all who disobey and disrespect all of
the above!!!
Lynx, GOOD, GOOD COMMENTS!
I’ve been gone for a couple of weeks and just started reading WCF again. So I’m going back to the thread before this one and changing the subject. You all know that Godfrey’s father was the mayor of Harrisville for quite a few years. I’m not sure, but it seems like it was in the 80s, but I don’t know what party he was with. If someone knows, that may shed some light on whether Godfrey is really a Democrat at heart, but a registered Republican in order to win the mayoral race (which is what I think).
I guess you’ve all heard the rumor, too, that Godfrey went to UTA and somehow got them to fund a feasibility study for the gondola at the cost of $250,000. He has just pulled another one of his dirty little devious tricks! And I understand that he attended the Council’s budget work meeting Tuesday night and had the audacity to challenge them when they were considering putting $260,000. into the next study that the Wasatch Front Regional Council and UTA representatives have told them that they need to do in order to be placed on the Federal’s and State’s waiting lists for funding of a mass transit system. He told them that the required study would just be a waste of money! Ms. Jeske told me that she had asked an UTA representative where the funds were taken from, and she was told that the $250,000. was being taken from money that had been allocated to “Ogden’s Bus” funds. Ms. Jeske was also told that the way Godfrey had it set up that those funds won’t come to Ogden City at all, but go directly into the study, so it’s a done deal. I don’t ever believe that line, so I’m encouraging everyone who is against the feasibility study for the gondola, call Mr. Michael Allegra, Chief Capital Development Officer, or Mr. English who works with the Wasatch Front Regional Council and northern Utah at 801-352-6700, or write to them at UTA
ATTN: Mr. Michael Allegra or Mr. English
613 West 6960 South
Draper, UT 84047
Let them know that you are against your tax dollars being used on such a foolish project. Ogden NEEDS a REAL transit system that EVERYONE can ride, and will accommodate the needs of the RESIDENTS of Ogden.
If you don’t want great big ugly poles and platforms running through Ogden, then please call or write UTA as soon as possible.
I'm changing the subject again. Did you all read the article about former Commissioner Camille Cain by Jeff DeMoss in Friday’s SE? I’d like to join the Chamber in honoring Ms. Cain and telling her “THANKS” for all the many hours she spent in behalf of Weber County residents.
It was a very well-written article and even unveiled some little-known facts. He gave her reasons for moving to the Ogden area from Birmingham, Alabama. I thought it was most interesting that as a Commissioner “she helped found the Greater Ogden Athletic Legacy Foundation, which has become a cornerstone of adventure recreation marketing in the county” after the 2002 Olympic Games.
And here Godfrey is telling us and everyone else that he is responsible for Ogden becoming an adventure recreation site. My, my, my! He needs to be careful or his pointed nose will be longer than Pinnochio’s!
Criticising the poor, ya you all are so tough. All I have to say is I hope it never happens to you, Because more and more people are listening to folks like you prideful people.
BLESSED ARE THE POOR!
WOW UNTO TO THOSE WHO CRITICISE THE POOR!
Brett, what a great idea to call UTA and object to the use of taxpayer dollars to do a study of the mayor’s gondola! It wouldn’t hurt to remind them that you can call your legislators next year and tell them to support the bill to take away UTA’s autonomy when they make such bad decisions. Another thing we will have to do, is educate all the voters about all the underhanded, devious, borderline legal dealings Godfrey does or has his crew of “Yes” men do. He shouldn’t even be considered worthy of the office of mayor because of the way he handled the illegal things that Scott Brown did! He knew that Brown had porn on his city computer! But he condoned it by doing nothing, so he is as wrong as Brown. We can fill a page with such issues and it won’t be slander nor defamation of character, because they are ALL TRUE! If we had a County Attorney who had some back bone, Godfrey would have been removed from office long before now. Can you believe that Godfrey ran the first time on the premise that he wasn’t “one of the ‘good ole boys!?’” I guess that’s what happens when you’re in office too long – you owe too many people! WE NEED A NEW MAYOR – ONE WITH SCRUPLES!!
Fellow-bloggers, be sure to call or write to UTA, as Brett suggests. Whether the mayor agrees or not, we do live in a democratic society! The citizens do have a voice – let it be heard!
Sharon:
Sigh. You wrote: It's insulting that you lump our vets in with those who won't work.
I haven't "lumped" veteran in with those scamming the welfare system. The numbers show, sadly, that a signficant number of the homeless, the alcoholic street people, are veterans, and many war veterans. That is a fact. Not a happy one, but a fact. Pretending it is not so does nothing whatever to help devise sound public policy to deal with that fact in useful ways. All I suggested was that your "give 'em a check up and if they're able bodied, no more welfare" approach would, in many cases, not distinguish between war veterans on the welfare roles and the lazy and shiftless you want to target. They'd all, many of them, be swept up together and cut off by your over simplistic "able-bodied" quick check-up in line standard.
Brett:
You wrote: You all know that Godfrey’s father was the mayor of Harrisville for quite a few years. I’m not sure, but it seems like it was in the 80s, but I don’t know what party he was with. If someone knows, that may shed some light on whether Godfrey is really a Democrat at heart, but a registered Republican in order to win the mayoral race (which is what I think).
Sigh....
One more time: It doesn't matter at all what party Mayor Godfrey's father was in. Party affiliation is not hereditary. His father could have been a dyed in the wool Yellow Dog Democrat from the day he turned twenty one, and it would not mean squat with respect to whether his son is now a Republican or not. [Sadly, in many families, a child sometimes goes bad despite the best efforts of parents.]
As for Hizzonah turning Republican in order to get the nomination for Mayor and to win the race: I remind you that the mayor's race is non-partisan. Candidates for the post are not nominated by either the Weber County Republican Convention or the Weber County Democratic Convention, and the race itself, and the ballots are non-partisan.
I don't think much of the Mayor as mayor, and I agree that on many matters his word is not to be trusted. But without evidence to the contrary [and how his father, uncle, father in law, and second cousin once removed voted is not evidence on this matter], if the man registers Republican, he's a Republican, however unhappy that might make some his fellow Republicans.
If he tomorrow registered Democratic [shudder], I'd not be happy about it, but I wouldn't go around denying that he was one. Instead, I'd argue that he was one Democrat who could not and should not be trusted with public office and the Party's county leaders would begin hearing from me, reguarly, and from everyone else in the WCDP I could organize, about the need to remove him from elected office. Sadly, these days [look at Congress over the previous six years], the attitude among Republicans seems to be "we support Republicans in office, blindly, like passive sheep, regardless of what they do or don't do, regardless of how they behave in office, simply because they are Republicans."
He's yours. Deal with him. Organize Republicans to remove him from office. You can be far more effective in that way than Democrats can. If you think he converted just to win the election, organize your own Party to help remove him from office. But Brett, I haven't seen the Weber County Republican Convention, or leadership, or any organized Ogden Republican group make any statement regarding the Mayor's performance in office, or his re-election.
Have you?
In re: immigration, and in hopes of allying semi-hysterical fears that Utah is about to be come Juarez, I offer a link
here to the lead editorial in today's Salt Lake Tribune.
This is not about a police state, it’s not about racism and it’s not about living the “American dream”. It’s about the U.S as a sovereign nation and it’s about crime and the way of life for our children. I am not speaking just to the national scale, I am speaking about right here in Ogden Utah. Let me explain why I say these things with facts:
Over 50% of the Weber County Jail is populated with Illegal Aliens.
Illegal Aliens are responsible for the importation and distribution of well over 90% of the Methamphetamine, 80% of the Marijuana, 100% of the Heroin and 100% of the Cocaine into Ogden. Because the Illegal Alien population has grown so large in Ogden over the last decade, so has the supply of the drugs that they have brought here. The result of this abundant supply has lead to the street prices of these drugs to drop to less than half of what it once was. These cheap prices have enabled these drugs to be available to far more people, most notably our junior and high school students. These drugs are extremely powerful and are highly addictive. Thus the drug addicts in Ogden have increased 10 fold in the last 10 years. The residual effect of this is that with all these addicts, who eventually lose their job and cannot beg or steal any money from their families, end up breaking into your house, your car or stealing your identity to fund their habit. I have been a police officer in Ogden for over ten years and let me remind you of the record drug seizures that have happened in that time:
In 1999 the biggest marijuana Grow in the State was discovered just over the North Ogden Pass on the side of a mountain. This multi-million dollar grow included 8,000 marijuana plants and was cultivated by illegal aliens from Mexico directly linked to a major drug cartel in Tijuana.
In 2000 a search warrant was conducted on Blanca Garcia’s home in the 3300 block of Quincy. Garcia, an illegal alien from Mexico, was found to be in possession of over 18 pounds of methamphetamine and close to $200,000 in cash. Garcia was living at this home with her small child and she received social aid and was on the Wick Program. She was arrested and jumped bail, fleeing back to Mexico. At this time this was a record seizure for drug and cash. As a side note, one year later her sister was caught with 8 pounds of methamphetamine in the 800 block of Kershaw.
2001 to 2004, an investigation was conducted in Ogden that uncovered a drug smuggling ring that led directly to the Mexican Drug Cartel in Sinaloa Mexico. This led to the arrest of numerous illegal aliens and the seizure of pounds of methamphetamine and over $500,000 in proceeds made from selling the drugs.
In 2006 27 pounds of Methamphetamine was seized just after they were brought here by ban illegal alien from Mexico. This is the current record drug seizure for this area at this time, but if things stay the same it will not last long.
One should keep in mind that for every seizure at least a hundred more make it through.
Do you know that the largest gang in Ogden is made up of Illegal Aliens? This Gang, the 18th Street Gang, is the rival of our home grown gang Ogden Trece. One would only have to review the news of the past few months to be reminded of how violent these gangs are. This 18th Street gang went on a rampage shooting up houses with an AK-47! Does anyone remember the 12 year old boy who was an inadvertent victim of this gang violence when he was shot in the park on Monroe? His killer was an illegal alien form Guatemala. Just drive around Ogden and see if you see “18 st” spray painted. They are increasingly marking more of their territory.
There are so many crimes attributed to illegal aliens that it is impossible to name them all. The illegal, alien father, who was out partying, while his three year old son died, home alone, in a house fire. The Multitude of rapes and child molestations, the 12 year old girl who was raped and killed by an illegal alien in the 100 block of 30th. All of the unlicensed and uninsured illegal alien drivers. All of the DUIs and the hit and run accidents that are now so common. The domestic violence crime among illegal aliens is so high that Ogden has two Spanish speaking detectives assigned to those crimes.
The national effect of illegal aliens on crime can be viewed here:
immigrationshumancost.org
Think about all of the man power hours and resources, which you pay for, that your police officers spend on these crimes that could be spent on pro-active activities that could make our city a better place.
I do not want a police state. I want a safe city, free of drugs, free of gangs and free of political leaders who pander to business that profit from illegal aliens.
Since it seems that this problem is not going to be solved by our national leaders, it is incumbent on our local ones to do what they can to protect our citizens. This is what I believe could be done to help address the issue:
The City Council should enact a City Ordinance that incorporates the Federal Immigration Code Title 8, Section 1325, and makes it a class B misdemeanor to be an illegal alien in the corporate city limits of Ogden. They should also include US Code Title 8, Section 1324, and make it a class B Misdemeanor for any employer to knowingly employ an Illegal Alien. There are simple procedures that are currently in place for employers to check the immigration status through the local Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement office.
This will not solve the immigration issue on a national scale, but will make Ogden a safer and better place to live.
If our local government chooses not to take any action on this, then the next victim of illegal alien crime will have them to blame. For those who have the power to act, an do not, are as guilty as those who have committed the act.
Loved this quote from your article update, Rudy:
"Simple Analogy
If your house is full of flies and mosquitos the FIRST thing you do is close the windows, then worry about taking care of those that got inside."
I would like to correct some misconceptions.
1. Mayoral races are apolitical. Godfrey is not the Republicans’ problem. He is everyone’s problem.
2. The idea that illegals take jobs Americans will not do, is false. If the farmers would pay more, they would get the American workers they need. It is a case of supply and demand. The supply of workers is large (in oversupply really) because of illegal immigration, so therefore the price of those workers can fall. There is one, and only one, economic reason for immigration – wage suppression.
3. This is the same reason CEOs want immigration, both legal and illegal, so they can suppress wages, not just on the low end, but everywhere they can. They say we need to import technical people, but if they paid more, they could get all the engineers and scientists they want. Note that Bill Gates doesn’t say we need to import executives to solve the problem of not enough good executives. Rather, he says he has to pay them more money to attract the good ones. He talks out of both sides of his mouth, depending on what will best put money in his pocket.
4. While wage suppression is good for the one suppressing the wages, the true and total costs of that labor are shifted elsewhere – mainly to the government and the rest of the public. Anybody who has kids in the schools filled with Mexicans knows this. Anybody who goes to the emergency room and sees nothing but Mexicans knows this. Everyone else could open their eyes and see this, instead of filtering everything though their own political lens, if they wanted to.
5. There is something in free enterprise called “the tragedy of the commons.” Learn about it. Pollution is an example of this. So is illegal immigration, or most all immigration for that matter.
“Dealing with Illegal Alien crime daily” in his post simply documents what we all know. The public knows the problem. The solution is not so difficult. “Dealing” lists some things we could use to start fixing the problem.
But the President of the US is more interested in Mexicans that Americans, at least on those days when he remembers what planet he is on. The man should start drinking again. He would be less dangerous and would have a reason for his ineptitude.
The Mormon Pioneers were illegal aliens. So were the Pilgrims.
Dealing With:
You wrote: Illegal Aliens are responsible for the importation and distribution of well over 90% of the Methamphetamine, 80% of the Marijuana, 100% of the Heroin and 100% of the Cocaine into Ogden.
Do you have a source for those numbers?
Danny:
You wrote: 1. Mayoral races are apolitical. Godfrey is not the Republicans’ problem. He is everyone’s problem. Of course. He would still be everyone's problem if the race were a partisan one.
However, those here --- and they are becoming legion --- who are Republican and who insist, despite all evidence to the contrary, that Hizonnah is not one of their number, and who insist that he only became one to "win the election" should, it seems to me, if that is so, be working within their own party to remove him from office. They don't seem to be. That's all.
I want him retired not because he's Republican --- though that by itself is more often than not a perfectly good reason to retire an elected official in Utah --- but because he has not been a particularly good or effective Mayor, and, more important still, he has demonstrated by his actions in office, repteatedly, that he has far too weak an understanding of what holding elective office requires by way of ethical conduct, honor and integrity. With the major questions about to be decided by city government in the near future, having someone like that in office amounts in effect to courting disaster IMHO.
Not to mention his plans to sell the city's largest park off to his real estate developer buddy so he can build a flatland tourist sky ride connecting downtown with WSU where it will [he hopes] connect to a private gondola that will not take people to Snow Basin. And he wants to sink 35 to 50 million of public money into the scheme. That too is sufficient reason, party affiliations aside.
DEALING WITH....and Danny,
Thank you for your excellent posts.
Dealing...you have the background and daily experience to speak to this problem in Ogden.
I've been talking for a long time about an ordinance in Ogden to deal with illegals. Thank you for concrete info on how to go about implementing these measures.
Over 80 cities in the US now have ordinances to deal with illegals infiltrating their municipalities. Landlord and employer sanctions, etc.
You both make excellent points. Employers must pay for the kinds of energy, loyalty, work ethic and production they expect from their employees.
If Mr Peach Orchard, and Tomato Farmer needs help, then offer appropriate compensation!
I still think that many on welfare could be put to work TODAY if we had officials with iron in their spines instead of bleeding hearts and numb bums.
Note to Brett and John: Thank you for the information of yet another underhanded and meddling act by Godfrey. Is he allowed to butt into the Council's work meetings?
Let's get hold of the UTA officials and complain!
Also, PLEASE, on Monday call the Senate...read Fred Thompson's execellent article that Rudi linked, and you have your 'talking points'.
This is no time to feel 'sorry' for those who just want to follow the "American Dream"....this is a time to speak up because OUR own American Dream is turning into a Spanish Speaking Drug filled, Crime Ridden Nightmare!
Oz:
I'm all for historial analogies... when they are apt. But calling the Puritan's illegal immigrants is stretching the meaning of the term well past the breaking point.
There were no immigration laws for them to have violated back then. And in fact for a good part of American national history, there were no immigration laws at all [though there were laws that regulated the time you had to be here to become a citizen, beginning in John Adams' administration].
Saying the Pilgrims were illegal immigrants is about as meaningful as claiming [as many do] that the US is a Christian Nation because the Pilgrims founded the nation. [No American nation existed until a century an a half after the landing at Plymouth, by which time Plymouth colony itself had not existed for a century.]
I'm afraid this is one we're going to have to argue out on the basis of present conditions and wise conduct, not historical analogy.
Here it is:
http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/pubs/states/utah.html
Curm, do you have figures for your assertion that the average stay on welfare for those seeking assistance is 'about a year and a half'??
Hah
Oz..the pioneeers and pilgrims weren't selling, and making drugs, selling to little kids, breaking into other's log cabins, and committing egergious crimes against society.
They were builders of a nation and a beautiful state. They sent their husbands and sons to answer the call to arms by their country.
Sometimes your attempts at sardonic humor are just, well, assinine.
100 years ago, the same issue was a hot toppic in this nation. Some things never change...
"In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the man's becoming in very fact an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag, which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907
Andrew Sullivan, [Republican blogger, who is largely a Goldwater Libertarian Republican by preference] has the following comment up on his blog in re: the emotional reaction on the right to the proposed immigration bill compromise:
The hysteria on the far right (is there any other sort any more?) about the immigration bill is remarkable to me. It's not that there aren't obviously good arguments against amnesty; it's the fever-pitch mania that drives these people. I have to say I find it baffling - not the position as such but the anger and rage. The obvious solution - much better border control and some attempt to bring most illegal immigrants out of the shadows - is obscured by emotion.
Pretty much on the money, it seems to me [while noting that key portions of the bill have not yet been agreed on and are simply bracketed in the draft that will be debated Monday... meaning the text has yet to be inserted].
There seem to me to be only four possibilities here:
a. continue the present situation --- massive illegal immigration, a huge illegal immigrant presence in the US, very minor and random deportations, some of which make no sense, and a general attitude on the part of both state and federal governments of wink wink nudge nudge to enforcing employeer penalties for hiring illegals [despite the occasional, very occasional, headline-grabing raid]. Everyone, on all sides, agrees the status quo is unacceptable. Everyone.
b. Amnesty for all, and open borders. This makes one extreme postion. It has zero chance of being enacted into law.
c. Deport 'em all and build a 2000 mile fence. This is the other extreme position and it has no chance of being enacted into law.
d. So, if we want to end the status quo which everyone agrees cannot continue, some kind of compromise bill will have to be drafted and agreed on. [I have no position yet on whether this one is the best one that can be arranged or not. I still haven't seen all the provisions, and when evaluating a compromise piece of legislation, you have to take all the provisions into account simultaneously.]
No one is going to get everything they want. No one. And scraming emotional attacks on, or defenses of, the draft compromise serve no good purpose other than the re-election hopes of the screamers. Emotional approaches to difficult questions rarely yield good results. Lyndon Johnson's "nail that coonskin to the wall" approach to Viet Nam didn't any more than George Bush's "bring it on!" approach to Iraq did.
We'll all be better off and end up with a better bill, seems to me, if we all --- members of Congress included --- calm down and begin analysing what's been proposed, and begin looking at whatever bill emerges, if one does [and I hope one does, or the status quo no one likes will continue] as the best that can be achieved at the moment, rather than the Perfect Bill from their one particular points of view.
Dealing with:
Thank you. Going to look at the site now. Appreciate the link.
Not laughing:
Let me look on the web and see if I can find the link. If I can, I'll post it. If not, I'll query colleagues for the latest study. That will take a little longer. Since you clearly doubt the number, I'd ask if you have figures that suggest otherwise.
But you are absolutely right to ask for a source and I'll go looking shortly. And if the source indicates something other than what I posted, I'll post that by way of correction.
As for this: They were builders of a nation and a beautiful state. They sent their husbands and sons to answer the call to arms by their country.
Not sure what to make of it. The Pilgrims did not build a nation, nor did they intend to. They didn't build a state either. Not sure why you think they "answered the call to arms by their country" --- which was England. I suspect you've conflated in your answer the Pilgrims and the LDS pioneers who came to Utah. I'd only add that they were doing their damndest [hmmmm... not perhaps the best choice of words in this instance] to get away from the US of A and had absolutely no intention of creating a State in the United States, and in fact [briefly] fielded an army to resist the US Army's arrival in Utah.
Granted, things changed, but it's a real stretch to offer the original Utah LDS pioneers as examples of American patriotism.
Again, I'm all for historial analogies, when they are apt. But only when they are apt.
Dealing:
The link here takes you to a DEA factsheet page for Utah. [Very interesting site, by the way, with pages for every state --- thanks again.] It talks about the major sources for various illegal drugs in Utah, the source in most cases being Mexico or Southern California, and it discusses Mexican drug gangs' domination of the distribution networks in Utah.
However, I didn't find on that page support for these numbers you posted: Illegal Aliens are responsible for the importation and distribution of well over 90% of the Methamphetamine, 80% of the Marijuana, 100% of the Heroin and 100% of the Cocaine into Ogden.
The DEA Utah page doesn't discuss Ogden specifically at all, nor did it discuss illegal aliens involvement in the drug trade. Did I miss a link off that page? I'd really like to know the source of those numbers relating illegal aliens to the Ogden drug trade and would appreciate a link, or refrence to a published source if you have one. They're fairly astonishing numbers.
Now, that said, I'd be the last to deny there is a crime element to the debate of immigration [see posts on thread below]. Clearly there is, and as you note all we have to do is read the papers to see it. However, nothing I've seen suggests that the bulk of the 12 million estimated illegal aliens in the US are involved in drug smuggling or sales, so the criminal aspect of the problem, while significant, does not encompass the whole problem, and dealing with it only as a criminal problem would not create a wise or practical solution.
But again, I absolutely am not trying to minimize the criminal drug dimensions of the problem. I suspect, though, that no matter how tightly we zipped up the Mexican boarder, the drug imports would not be much affected. No attempt in our history to interdict banned substances has worked. [See Prohibition.] In fact, during the height of prohibition, the Feds estimated they intercepted about 5% of the stuff coming in illegally, over the border from Canada and Mexico, or along the Atlantic, Pacific and Gulf Coasts. As I recall, that's about what I think DEA estimates it intercepts now of illgal drug imports.
Sometimes, those advocating much stricter employeer sanctions against hiring illegal aliens [which I support] argue that "if they weren't hiring, the illegals wouldn't keep coming." Well, it migh as logically be argued of the drug imports, if Americans weren't buying, the imports would stop.
But where there's a mass market for an illegal substance, and for drugs sadly there is, our history suggests that a way will be found to sasisfy that demand, the laws notwithstanding.
WHO THE HELL IS HYSTERICAL?????
oh, excuse me...I turned to the right and something awful happened. I defended America's borders.
Curm,
I would have to admit you that the numbers are not directly listed in the page I gave you. I would have to submit that you will have to take me at my word; I was with the Weber Morgan Narcotic Strike Force for 5 years and the F.B.I Violent Crimes Task Force for several more.
I do not suggest that every Illegal Alien in Ogden is a drug dealer rather that every big drug dealer in Ogden is an illegal alien. In law enforcement we look for common threads to reduce crime. A specific fact that links a large group of crimes together. The common thread in Ogden is undoubtedly illegal aliens. I would submit to you that if we address the issue like I suggested in my previous post, there would be those illegal aliens that are not drug dealers and gang members who would be affected. I would also submit that all of the illegal alien drug dealers and gang members would be affected.
I would ask you this question: How many legal citizens of Ogden are worth being victimized in violent crime to ensure that the non-drug dealer or gang member in the illegal alien community can stay here? It is not a matter of if but only how many. It’s an absolute that tonight when I go to work I will meet many victims of illegal aliens. I have met thousands already! I am sickened by the fact that nothing is done and more and more people are victimized.
I take issue when you excuse away the importation of drugs based on the demand. If people do not have the opportunity, lower supply and higher prices, we would not have as many addicts. I absolutely support more education for our children to make the right decisions when confronted with such a choice. Maybe if we cut out some of the Spanish Speaking aids that our schools must have for the illegal alien children we would have the money to support such a plan. In short their abundant supply ultimately ensures the future demand!
You must focus the plan of action against the common thread that links these problems within our city. That common thread is the illegal aliens that we have in this city.
I would suggest that you contact our department and ask for a ride-along with a patrolman on a weekend night. I assure you that you will see what I speak of. Contact the Weber Morgan Narcotic Strike Force and ask them who is importing and selling the drugs in Ogden.
As for "zipping up" the boarder, I do not believe that it would stop the drug flow. It sure would limit it and make it more expensive for the Mexican Drug Cartels to bring it across. That would at least increase the street price of the drugs! Did you watch CNN this morning? They had an excellent piece on how the Mexican Drug Cartels are shooting it out over drug smuggling routes though Arizona. Many civilians have been killed by former Mexican Police Officers who are now working for the Cartels. How long before they fight it out over drug selling turf in Ogden? It's not that far fetched or that far off.
Curm, I have always respected your views on this blog, although I have not always agreed with them. The true answers are right here in the community. In the jails and spray painted on the walls.
Ah Mr Curmudgeon!
You wrote:
"but it's a real stretch to offer the original Utah LDS pioneers as examples of American patriotism"
I know you be a stickler for historical fact and not retoric, so how about this one:
It's called the "Mormon Battalion"
Seems old Brother Brigham did in deed answer the call of the good old USofA in a time of national need by fielding the 500 man battalion which then went on to conduct the longest US Army march in history. They hoofed it all the way out to San Diego, California. All through pretty difficult and hostile Injun country. They then were a very big part of securing California as a US Territory. Hell, a couple of them were even the guys that discovered Gold at Sutter's Mill.
This all happened at the deepest point of Mormon persecution when neither the States of Illinois or Missouri or the US government would step in and protect them from the mob.
The money the US government paid in gold for these 500 mormon soldiers was the grub stake for Brigham to take the rest of the pioneers across the plains and into Zion.
When the Battalion disbanded in California the troops made their way back over the desert to Great Salt Lake City.
So all in all I stand by my analogy of MoMo's and Pilgrims being illegal's. The land we all live on once belonged to the Indians before the Mexicans took it away from them, which was before we took it away from the Mexicans. At best we are only temporary custodians of the land. It was here before us, and it will be here when we're gone.
So, Ozboy--
What is your solution to the present crisis?
Tell us how to solve the problem.
ozboy,
you are coming across like an obstinate old buzzard who can't offer concrete information to rebut what is being offered as fact.
You better do better than you are doing or I am going to find another blogger to quote.
Dealing:
OK, given your experience/work, the figures you gave now have some background, some provenance. Won't challenge them. I admit I am surprised by how high they are.
Couple of points: (a) You ask How many legal citizens of Ogden are worth being victimized in violent crime to ensure that the non-drug dealer or gang member in the illegal alien community can stay here? It Easy answer. None. Now the question is, how do we eliminate crime by illegal aliens in Ogden/Utah/US? I haven't seen any proposal by anyone on the national scene yet who's made a suggestion that is (a) practical and (b) acheivable [meaning capable of passage by Congress]. Not one. And part of the reason is, powerful interests [in American agriculture and business] have powerful interests in seeing that cheap labor from south of the border is not cut off.
Again, I am not diminishing the extent of the crime problem associated with illgal aliens. What I don't see yet, from anyone, is a practical and achievable solution for it based on immigration reform. From my POV the size, the scope, the dimensions of the problem, and problems traceable to it, are not in question. Practical solutions however seem to me [so far] to be thin upon the ground.
(b) You wrote: I take issue when you excuse away the importation of drugs based on the demand. I don't think I "excused away" anything, just noted some history-based fact. The drug trade in the US used to be in the hands of American gangs [Bugsy Segal, Dutch Shultz, Al Capone and their inheritors.] Merely pointing out that if we could stop every illegal from Mexico from crossing the border tomorrow, after a depressingly limited period of adjustment, the drugs would begin flowing again over other and time tested routes [seaborne, air, etc.] On that point, you and I seem to agree. Different dealers,maybe, different mules [strings pulled from Columbia, perhaps, instead of Juarez] but the problem will continue as long as the demand is there. That's a comment not excusing the trade; just one describing the mechanics. [And no, I don't have any good ideas on how to dry up the demand either.]
(c) You wrote: I would suggest that you contact our department and ask for a ride-along with a patrolman on a weekend night. I've done that [not in this state, but elsewhere.] Had head of the state police in one of my classes, and we got to discussing crime, law enforcement, etc. much as you and I have, and he suggested a ride along on a Friday night [mid-sized city in the deep south]. It's another world, out there, as you know. A five hour ride along on a Friday night [we did 9 pm to 2 AM] provides information about what law enforcement has to deal with, daily, people will never get from TV, newspapers, radio, or what have you. As I said, it's a whole other world, and no, it's not one I want to live in regularly. Or at all.
Thanks for the conversation, Dealing. Enjoyed it and learned something.
If OzBoy had the answers
he would be known as
SolomonBoy.
Mr. Ozboy
It is unfortunate that you went way out of your way to be insulting to Sharon and me with your crude remarks on this blog.
You wrote, and this is your quote and your spelling, "a few lilly white and way to previledged packs of gringo descendants are getting their panties in a knot over a few poor honest latinos".
You also assumed that we watched Fox news and other right wing news sources for our information.
Speaking only for myself,it just happens that I never watch Fox news but I do get information about issues from other sources which it is evident that you have not bothered to do.
But then being informed is evidently not one of your prerequisites for accepted behaviour.
You owe both of us an apology. You may think your statements to us and about us are cute or witty but I find them disgusting.
Point of fact, this battle over illegal immigration is not just about a few poor but honest Latinos wanting a slice of the American dream.
This fight is about millions of illegals of all shapes and nationalities wanting to destroy a basic tenet of our government which is obedience to the law of the land.
Let the illegals get in line like everyone else has to do and come into this country legally.
You are showing a feeling of inferiority because of your statement that we two women are "way to previledged" which by the way, if it were written properly, should have been written "way too priviledged".
Curm,
You asked the question, “Now the question is, how do we eliminate crime by illegal aliens in Ogden/Utah/US?”
I don’t think that on a national level that this can be effectively achieved. There are too many special interest groups that dilute the facts and subvert our politicians. I hope that they will simply enforce the law on the books for starters.
As for Utah, and particularly Ogden, we have a better chance to enact laws/ordinances that would have an immediate and lasting effect by simply enacting the local laws based on federal immigration laws. Utah should not issue any government document to any illegal alien and they should not have access to our schools or free healthcare. There should be no business licenses issued to illegal aliens. Now by doing this it will not solve the illegal immigration problem totally, but what it would do is making Utah/Ogden an unwelcoming place for illegal aliens.
What the national politicians fail to do, our local leaders must do; protect our citizens!
On your point about the smuggling of drugs into the US, I agree that there is no solution to stop it. But by making as difficult as you can, you at least cause the price of the drugs to go up and maybe, just maybe, one less person would try it for the first time and not get addicted. Maybe one person would not overdose and die. It’s my POV that this is why it’s worth it to try.
Hey Mr Dealing...
Ogden needs you! How are you on other issues? You could run for mayor!
More than getting the the illegals under control is facing Ogden. We have a lot of corruption coming out of the City Building!
Senor Gringo Ozmuchacho,
thank you for luving us immigrants so much. you are a savior to the downtroddwn. my sister is with child, her tenth, her husband is in jail for shooting at some punks who invaded his territory...on monroe street... you probably read aabout him? and my brothers are cooking some meth in the bedroom. my wife is making tacos for me to sell to the gringos who come by my stand....the meth doesn't hurt anybody, so they are tasty. you should come buy some, and help us. that would let us get a bigger piece of the americano dream.
my mama and papa and the rest of my familia are ready to cross over any night now. my nephew and his amigos are selling some weed to the white kids at the junior high and high schools. pretty soon they will be working for us. then we can get an apt for the rest of the familia...about 17 of them.
i am the only one who speaks some english...i have a buyer typing this for me in exchange for a little crack. and two tacos.
you are a rich american, i know that becaue my typing friend told me. you also say that you are sympatico with my troubles and so i wonder if you culd buy a truck for my business?
if the ice people come around i wonder if you will welcome all my familia and neighbors to come camp on your land. i understand you are a very big gringo in your town and have a lot of room for the poor and downtrodden who just want to be real americans.
please answer very soon, so that all my familia in mexico can get ready to cross into our own country that you white bastards stole from us. pardon my language, but you already said it...so it must be true.
vincente fox also, rest his soul, told us that americaa is our true homeland...so i know you want to help us and give us respect. no?
Senor Ozmuchacho,
could you please give me a van instead of a truck? my sister has 9 children already and one or two more coming. we have to get to the welfare office, and wic, and the hopital soon! also, my nephews can sell a lot more weed if we can drive around. my other familia in mexico will be coming soon. i will need to meet them in san diego or somewhere...maybe even texas and bring them here.
pls help us. you can see that we are hardworking and want to be true americanos.
thank you for your kindness to a brother in need. i know you will receive many blessings for your generosity to the poor.
my typing friend needs a hit right now, so he wants to close. pls reply soon.
your true amigo....taco
Dealing with:
Making the environment less inviting here [nationwide for that matter] is an idea that has some appeal for me and many others. [Which is why I want to see the proposed law's provisions for actually enforcing employer sanctions for a change, if there are any in the bill, before I start writing to Congressmen about supporting or opposing it]. The business license matter is probably doable [but I wonder --- and I have no idea what the answer is --- how many illegals file for business licenses in Weber County/ Ogden? Is it a signficant number? Would shutting off such licenses have a significant impact? Do those who do file tend to be those involved in the drug trade? Again, I don't know.]
The no "ID" matter has been debated all across the country. It is one of those issues on which I can see powerful arguments on both sides. Issuing them does tacitly endorse illegal presence in the US, it does grant a kind of permission, however implicit. I don't think that can be doubted. On the other hand, with 12 million here now, the argument that it's better to have them on the grid rather than off, to know where they are via registrations than not, makes some sense to me as well. I wonder what the short term forcing of 12 million completely off the grid immediately would result in? Substantially increased crime? Seems to me a possibility at least.
Seems to me there are two problems here: dealing with the illegals already here, and dealing with preventing new ones from coming. Perhaps different solutions are called for in each case. Just by way of example: how about a policy of re-issuing existing IDs, but of refusing to grant new ones? Is that workable? Would that keep the existing population on the grid [so to speak] while eliminating to some extent the attractiveness for more arrivals? Don't know.
We're going to disagree on one point. Under no circumstances do I think we ought to close public schools to children. The children have broken no laws. Their parents have. I see no advantage at all to turning kids away from school to run the streets because their parents brought them over illegally. So we'll just have to agree to disagree on that. Going after the children in order to coerce parents to leave is not something I can comfortably support. Punishing children for parent's actions seems to me a very dicey business. And that's what we'd be doing.
Ditto health services, particularly [again] and especially for children. Same reasoning. But even beyond them, do you think people, in Ogden, nationwide, would be willing to see the sick or injured turned away from hospitals, say, to die [and that's what would happen, sure as shootin]? I suspect not. I don't think, as a people, we have that in us.
How about making treatment dependant on deportation at completion? I know, I know, that will mean many will choose not to be treated. Unhappy consequences there too. Some will die as a result, but at least they will have chosen not to be treated rather than being turning away. Not much of a fig leaf of compassion, maybe, but part of one anyway. And there are all kinds of circumstances in which I don't think it would work. Car accident, for example, critical injury. No time to determine if the victim is legal or not racing to the OR. And I'm not sure we could get doctors to refuse service even if we decided as a matter of public policy that they ought to.
Again, any such "close off healthcare" would have to be tempered, for me, with an absolute guarantee that chilren will be treated, no questions asked. Or illegals will not bring children in for needed care, and there's no rationale I can think of for creating an incentive for illegals not to bring children in for treatment.
There are others ramifications to consider too. If illegals contract contageous diseases, will they then spread them more widely out in the general popoulation as a result of avoiding treatment? That latter consequence will affect Americans with increased illness, I'd think.
I concede, I've been thinking of the problem [and solutions] largely from the POV of national legislation, rather than local solutions for local effect. Let me think on that a little more.
There's a Hispanic man in ICU at McKay Dee Hosp now. Been there for two years. His loyal American attorny won't let his real status (or name) be released!
That is a red flag about his legality.
In the meantime, HE is not paying his bills...but all the rest of us are!
Too many around here have their heads in the ground.
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sounds like the mayor has open the door with illegals with his idea of the Ogden Area Hispanic Chamber of Commerce (OAHCC). yea Dean Martinez,
brovo mayor godfrey. three cheers, hip hip heeraa
So do we complain or do we do something about this huge problem, like get behind Neil Hansen's Race for Mayor? Or just complain!!! Well how about it.
The first place to start is with legislation to allow the Social Security Administration to be able to talk to the IRS to verify Social Security numbers. At the present time this not allowed under U. S. law.
Common sense dictates that this would help in tracking false or duplicate Social Security numbers.
Under the 1986 amnesty bill all employers were to have signed statements in their employees' files signed by the employees as to their legal status with Social Security numbers given by the employee. That provision has been ignored by our government since 1990.
I am opposed to new legislation with all the new 1000 pages of red tape when we can't enforce what is already on the books.
We all know that an illegal is not going to go back to their native country and get in line to wait six or more years for re-entry..
Most of the illegals in this country do not have the funds to pay the $5,000.00 proposed fine unless they are drug dealers or human smugglers. We don't want them anyway.
Homeland Security or whatever agency is supposed to do background checks does not have the personnel to do that at this time nor are there enough border agents to enforce whatever is passed.
The key is to get the funds appropriated by Congress before any new laws take effect. Otherwise the funds will never be appropriated.
The next step is to authorize any police or law enforcement agency to ask whether an person is a legal citizen when they are stopped for questioning for whatever reason. At the present time the rule seems to be DO NOT ASK.
We need to change the law that provides that any child born in the U.S.to an illegal is an automatic citizen. That child can then bring in unlimited family members, estimated to be around 300 at this time.
The illegal family having that child can claim it on any income tax return filed and get a cash refund for the child credit. It makes no sense to give a cash refund for having children because illegals normally pay no income tax.
The real figures for illegals in this country are more like 20 million than 12 million. The cost of providing welfare and free school lunches and providing education and health care for them is astronomical.
The time has come to look realistically at the financial cost to our nation and what we doing to our own standard of living.
Ogden needs to join some 80 other cities in the U.S. that have passed legislation regarding illegals.
Where does Neil Hansen stand on such legislation?
There is an article in today's Standard-Examiner about HUD's latest requirement to have landlords renting HUD buildings to low-income persons must provide contracts written in some 100 different languages and must provide an interpreter immediately to explain the rental arrangements for low-income families renting the buildings taxpayers are subsidizing through HUD.
This is insanity. Why are we providing housing much less renting to people who can't speak English and understand the terms of the rent sgreement?
I know that since he is the State Rep. and has one of the most diverse districts in the state, He has probably though alot of how we can take care of this proplem. call him and ask?
VEry Concerned:
You offer some good suggestions, some doubtful.
The first place to start is with legislation to allow the Social Security Administration to be able to talk to the IRS to verify Social Security numbers. At the present time this not allowed under U. S. law. If we are using social security numbers as evidence of citizenship, as it seems we are, this or something like it seems not only reasonable be necessary.
Under the 1986 amnesty bill all employers were to have signed statements in their employees' files signed by the employees as to their legal status with Social Security numbers given by the employee. That provision has been ignored by our government since 1990. Absolutly true. No administration or Congress has been much interested in actually enforcing the employer sanctions that were offered as the quid pro quo for the last amnesty bill.
Homeland Security or whatever agency is supposed to do background checks does not have the personnel to do that at this time nor are there enough border agents to enforce whatever is passed.The key is to get the funds appropriated by Congress before any new laws take effect. Otherwise the funds will never be appropriated. True too. Congress and the Administration is --- or has been --- very big on passing grandly anmed bills [The Patriot Act] and creating grandly named departments [Homeland Security] and then refusing to fund them adequately in the name of budget discipline and tax reductions. And voters buy the charade, time and time again.
The next step is to authorize any police or law enforcement agency to ask whether an person is a legal citizen when they are stopped for questioning for whatever reason. At the present time the rule seems to be DO NOT ASK. OK, and once they've asked, then what? Somebody is stopped and asked, and says "Yes, I'm a citizen." Or he says "No, I'm just visiting the US." Then what? Ask him to prove it? How? ["I don't know, buddy. You look Canadian to me. Can you prove you're American? Oh, you are Canadian, here just visiting legally. So you say. Can you prove that, right here and now, to me? No? Spread Cancuck!"] Substitue any other ethnicity you like. [Canary Islander, Irish, Pakistani, etc. Argument's the same.] I'm not sure what giving law enforcement the power to ask will accomplish in a practical way.
We need to change the law that provides that any child born in the U.S.to an illegal is an automatic citizen. That child can then bring in unlimited family members, estimated to be around 300 at this time. Several problems here. It's not a law. It's part of the Constitution [birth in the US = citizenship.] It cannot be changed by passage of a law, only by amending the Constitution. Second: I think you may be wrong that a child's citizenship means the child's status can "bring in," automatically, hundreds... or even a few... family members. The papers have been full of recent stories of parents of children born here being deported to Mexico. Some of the Cache Valley deportees were in that situation. They chose to leave their children here and to return to Mexico without them, in some cases. So I'm not sure you're right on what the law currently is, and I'm pretty sure that the 300 relatives per child permitted to enter figure is exaggerated.
The illegal family having that child can claim it on any income tax return filed and get a cash refund for the child credit. It makes no sense to give a cash refund for having children because illegals normally pay no income tax. On this point, I think you are wrong. Illegals ofter do not file income taxes, I think, but if they are working at regular jobs, like those in the meatpacking plants in Cache Valley, they have taxes deducted from their paychecks like everyone else. In order to stay under the radar, many may not file tax returns [particularly if they have given false SS numbers], in which case those taxes withheld remain with the treasury. Since so many work at minimum wage jobs, or close, if they did file, they'd get a great deal of the money withheld back. By not filing, they end up paying more taxes than comprable American citizens do. This notion that illegals "don't pay taxes" is not one what can be sustained on the evidence, I think. If regularly employeed, they pay social security taxes [for benefits they can never claim], income taxes, and sales taxes. We can argue about whether the taxes cover the services they use or receive, but I don't think the argument that they don't pay taxes can be sustained on the evidence.
Disenfranchised Taxpayer:
You wrote: This is insanity. Why are we providing housing much less renting to people who can't speak English and understand the terms of the rent sgreement?
Well, because being able to speak English is not a requirement, if you are a US citizen, for receiving public benefits. Nor should it be. You want to argue we should not be providing public housing to people here illegally, that's one thing, and I'd tend to agree. But making facility in English a requirement for public benefits is a bad idea. There are American citizens, born here, who do not speak English well or at all. Not great numbers, but some. I can see making citizenship or legal residence a requirement for public housing, but not a particular language.
I do agree though that things have gone off the rails with respect to requiring public bodies to provide documents or translators in an endless variety of languages. Practicality suggests there ought to be a "significant numbers" test at least --- meaning that a certain threshold percentage of people in a state ought to speak that language before the state needs to provide documents in that language.
By the way, just to spike this argument before it begins: Immigrants to the US [from all areas] are learning English as about the same rate and speed as did the Italian, Polish, German etc immigrants who came over in such huge numbers in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. No appreciable difference.
By the way, you're not permitted to vote? That's what disenfranchised means.
By the way, just by way of change of pace since we've been on a heavy topic for a while, there's good ink for Ogden in this morning's paper. Link, here.
Ogden's marathon apparently came off as a great success, with 4K entrants in various elements of it, including many from out of state and from across the nation [600 out of staters says the SE]. If they had a good time, and word of mouth spreads, Ogden benefits. You can't buy publicity that's better than word of mouth on events like these.
Kudoes to the local organizers and volunteers. [Full disclosure: I am not one of them, nor am I a runner, not did I take part in the Marathon, not even the strangely named "fun run." "Fun" and "run" are two words that never appear together in my vocabulary.]
Of course, the organizers got a break on the weather, which was perfect for the event. No matter how much good work goes into organizing and prep, a wet and blustery day can kill an event like this. But we lucked out this time. There is another story in the SE on the marathon, talking about the economic impact [filled hotels, busy restaurants, etc.] An all around good day for Ogden, its citizen volunteers and the city's rep. Good on ya, people.
Mark Shirtleff Endorses new Emmigration Law:
From today's SL Trib:
Standing outside a hacienda-style law office in Salt Lake City, Attorney General Mark Shurtleff praised a congressional proposal that would beef up border security yet provide legal status to millions in the country illegally.
"This is a glorious day," he said Saturday. "Congress appears ready to cross these divides and come together to try to work out a comprehensive immigration-reform act."
His comments - interspersed with Spanish - came as the Alcala Law Firm announced the grand reopening of its Salt Lake City practice, which specializes in immigration law.
With black-sombreroed singers and Latino cuisine, the law firm celebrated Saturday at its rennovated location near 1300 West along Indiana Avenue. The decor was distinctly Latino, featuring an interior courtyard with a fountain, broad wooden double doors and a stone image of Mexican revolutionary Emiliano Zapata above the gate.
Shurtleff lauded the operation, then spoke nationally of what he characterized as a "new day" for immigration reform.
The rest of the story can be found here.
The entire immigration package that will be voted on needs to be scrapped in its entirety.
Sounder brains are required to put together what this country needs.
Too many pieces make up this puzzle and I'm sure that starting over with NO AMNESTY as the basis for any bill will make better sense.
Also, why aren't federal law breakers being punished? NO amnesty.
The entire immigration package that will be voted on needs to be scrapped in its entirety.
Sounder brains are required to put together what this country needs.
Too many pieces make up this puzzle and I'm sure that starting over with NO AMNESTY as the basis for any bill will make better sense.
Also, why aren't federal law breakers being punished? NO amnesty.
Curm:
I was one of 1300 entrants in the marathon. Mrs. Monotreme ran in the 5K along with 614 of her closest friends. About a thousand were in the half-marathon.
It was really something to see traffic on the streets and thousands of people out at 4:30 am yesterday.
There is nothing more beautiful than the run through Ogden Canyon, and it's only once a year that the road is closed so you can truly appreciate it.
Getting to see the additional hundreds of volunteers at the various aid stations (I made use of them all!) and at the Finish Line festival was another big plus for me. We were all Ogdenites for a day.
(I would say, "Ich bin ein Ogdenite", but it just doesn't have the right ring to it.)
If you want to check on someone you know, this is the link, searchable by last name.
(The server seems to be really balky right now, which I take as a good sign – 4000 people checking their results today.)
I don't always agree with Kym Buttschardt, but on this, she and the Ogden GOAL Foundation have done a fantastic job. Bravo to Kym Buttschardt and the Foundation for a job well done.
It is these sorts of events that bring us together as citizens of one of the greatest cities in the country (at least, in the top six, last I checked.)
I do have a question for those participating in this WCF immigration debate.
How does one consider the paying of a $5000 fine to be "amnesty" in any sense of the word?
I'm genuinely curious, because the logic of this position escapes me.
One could certainly argue the size of the fine (either too high or too low), but the last time an acquaintance paid a ticket for a violation on Federal property (yes, a Federal crime), he used a few choice words to describe it, but none of those words were pronounced "amnesty".
Please find some way to line up the dictionary definition of the word with the language in the current immigration bill, because I cannot.
If what is meant is "the absence of jail time" or "the absence of forced deportation", then I think in order to be precise in one's language, another word or phrase rather than "amnesty" should be used.
Woo Hoo and Amen Brother!
The City Council is stiffening its collective spine against funding Godfrey's gondola vision!!
What good news is that early on a Monday morning, eh?
Also...be prepared. "Thousands" will be at the Junction! Security will be tight (thank goodness) in the 'gun zones'. That translates to keeping the gang bangers at bay.
May want to station the cops near the bowling alley and climbing wall doors. I think that is where the soulful eyed and hoping-to-get-in will be hanging out. And, they just might scare away all the well heeled who can afford a $50.00 ride in the wind tunnel.
Good luck Ogden...and all without a gondola in sight overhead and the Frontrunner ain't even pulling into the station!
How cool is that???
Not too late to call, email or fax your senators today! Let them know to stop this immigration bill.
No amnesty to those who come into our country illegally, from any country!
Your voice is important...let it be heard.
Mono:
It's a political name game. Like calling inheritance taxes "the death tax." If you can frame the debate using your terms, the "debate" is over before it begins. That's why a bill to revise national security procedures [wiretap rules,etc] got named "The Patriot Act." Left those opposing it seeming to oppose patriotism. Clever politically, but doing things like that does not serve the public interested. Much of the public debate we should have had never happened because of the way the bill was named. It was the legislative equivalent of switching to "Freedom Fries."
So no, it's not amnesty that's begin proposed, and certainly not amnesty in the same sense as the previous immigration act, which was an amnesty bill. But if the debate over it can be framed as "amnesty vs, no amnesty," the battle is won [or lost] before it begins.
Framing it that way also obscures the fact that there are many other elements to the bill, that the bill does not deal only with what the proponents prefer to call "path the citizenship" provisions. For example, so-called "amnesty" provisions do not even begin to operate unless, until border security provisions have been implemented. Are those provisions sufficient to make a real difference at the border? Will they result, can they, in severely limiting new illegal immigration? I don't know, but it's certainly worth looking at them before deciding if the bill is a good idea or not. However, if you can get everyone talking about, and only talking about, "amnesty," then no other facets of the bill will be looked at at all. Such as, by way of another example, the allegedly hugely beefed up employer sanction provisions.
I still haven't decided if this is a good bill, overall or not, still chewing it over, talking with people, digging for information. But if opponents can get people talking only about "amnesty," then no serious consideration of the bill in its entirety will take place. Which is what they want to happen.
Stop chewing....it's all turning to mush in your mouth.
Your professorial take is bogging down your intellect.
You are old and wise enough by now to know that Kennedy, Reid and Kyl have come up with a bad mess o' pottage.
Webster's Dictionary defines amnesty:
the act of authority (as government) by which pardon is granted to a large group of individuals.
Anyone coming into this country illegally will be pardoned by the proposed legislation and will be allowed to stay in this country to work by paying a fine and performing certain requirements of the pardon.
They are still being pardoned for violating our laws by coming into this country illegally.
Spit it out:
Having not yet read the bill, or seen all of its key provisions described [from a reliable source, not a partisan advocate for or against], I know no such thing.
I've got two questions I need to answer before I decide about the bill.
(a) Will this bill, if it passes, create a situation better than the one that now exists [which absolutely everyone agrees is chaotic, and cannot be sustained]? If the answer is "no" then I'll agree the bill is a bad idea. But if the answer is "yes" --- that the border security provisions and the employeer sanctions are substantial enough that the bill, however flawed, will be better than the status quo, then I can move on to the second question I need to ask, and answer:
(b) Given there this is a compromise bill, and there are signficant parts of it I don't particularly like, if the bill is defeated, is there a reasonable probability that a better bill can be agreed on and passed in this session of Congress? If the answer is "yes," then I'll agree the bill is a bad idea. But if the answer is "no," then I'll have to conclude that, flawed as it is, the bill is better than the status quo and, because no better bill is likely to be agreed to, it would be wise to adopt it.
Too many times, on both sides of the aisle [and I note that this is not a partisan bill, that significant opposition to it exists on both sides of the aisle as well as significant support for it --- including support from the White House], people let "the perfect become the enemy of the good." Few perfect bills on anything exist, and saying "no" to everything unless the perfect bill [from your POV, whatever it might be] can be passed means, as a rule, that nothing gets done.
I haven't answered either of my two questions to my own satisfaction, yet. But it is plain to me, Spit It Out, that the answers to them are not obvious.
And so it is said:
That's what I mean. I don't see how admitting that I committed a crime, and paying a fine for said crime, is "amnesty".
I don't think you mean the word "pardon" the way you've used it, either.
The way I understand the legislation, it's analogous to a judicial proceeding where I admit wrongdoing, agree to pay a fine in lieu of jail time, and I still broke the law.
I don't see how in any way that can be called "amnesty" or "pardon".
For example, two years ago, Mall Wart ("Your Source for Cheap Plastic Crap") paid an $11 million dollar fine to ICE for immigration violations. Mall Wart executives did not go to jail. That's not amnesty, is it? No one called it that at the time.
I know how you distrust anyone who is not defined as a liberal democrat...but one of the greatest historians of our time is Newt Gingrich. If you want an analysis of the amnesty billll, swallow your pride and catch him at 9pm tonight on the (dare I say?) FOX NEWS CHANNEL!!
Aw c'mon...it'll only hurt for a little while. May even be good for you.
Your Friend:
Being a paid professional historian myself, I'm afraid I'll have to dispute your characterization of Mr. Gingrich as "one of the greatest historians of our time."
As for watching the Faux News Channel... well, no. But I did watch a fairly lengthy portion of the Senate debate on the bill this afternoon, speakers on both sides. Learned much about the bill I had not known, and while we have two weeks of debate coming up, and doubtless several amendments as well, I'm a little less inclined at the moment to think it a good bill, all things considered, than I was earlier. A key element is the claim by is supporters that under the bill, the border must be secure first before any of the citizenship provisions even begin to go into effect, and the bill lists what "securing the border means." Adding 6K new border guards to the 12K already there; building 320 miles of new fencing; building 200 miles of vehicle barriers; instally I think 70 high tech radar/camera towers; adding half a dozen drone aircraft to the border patrol.
All good ideas, but what bothered me about the pro-bill speakers who explained all this [primarily Domenici this afternoon] is that the bill defines "securing the border" only in terms of adding people, fences, barriers, towers and drones. It equates that with "secured border" which then triggers the "path to citizenship" provisions of the bill.
I'd have been a lot happier if it had defined "secured border" in terms of verifiably reduced numbers of illegal entries. For example had it taken a five year average of illegal entrants and then said citizenship provisions will begin to be implemented when that number drops over a two year period to 20% of what the average had been.
I'm not sure adding hardware and personnel [while important] means the border has been secured.
Will be following the two weeks the Senate has scheduled for debate in the papers, and some on CSPAN, time permitting [I'm hellishly late on a manuscript deadline at the moment]. But will not be following it on Faux News. I like my amusing political fiction to be labled as such, e.g. the Daily Show and the Colbert Report.
This morning, [Republican] blogger Andrew Sullivan posted the letter below, from one of his readers, dealing with illegal immigrant workers and the construction industry in his town. Nicely catches the complexities of the issue, I think:
A reader writes:
I am a small town lawyer in a vital small town. As the building trades are extremely active here, Hispanics are the fasting growing minority by far. Large general contractors avoid the potential pitfalls of hiring illegal immigrants by hiring as many subcontractors (framing, plumbing, roofing, etc) as possible. But the number of Hispanics here has reached critical mass. In order to be competitive in the market, one must use Hispanic labor. Therefore, the subcontractors, who do only one thing, are the ones stuck with the potential risk of using illegal immigrants.
A recent event epitomizes some facets of the immigration problem you might find interesting. Client needs a substantial addition to his house. The lowest bidder by far (40% lower) is 100% Mexican. They are paid in cash. They do an extremely fine job, probably better than any non-Mexican group. But they are not able to do all the work (plumbing for instance) and a sub is found. This one does not hire immigrants. He comes on site, sees the Mexicans at work, gets back in his vehicle screaming about the G-D Mexicans, and drives away from the site, never to return.
This example is important for many reasons. First, from the consumer’s point of view, this is a no-brainer. The quality of the work is outstanding and cheap. Second, there is no big business ripping off the Mexicans in this example, as the group itself is Mexican and undercuts the market because it does not pay social security, medical insurance or worker’s compensation, and the workers live more cheaply than people who know they will be living here forever. Third, the level of hostility that is beginning to surface is palpable.
I am sure the problem has many more faces than we see here in the building trades, but I think it safe to say the problem defies simple analysis. It is multivariable.
For what it is worth here’s my local perspective/take on the issue. What strikes me is just how little Latinos (illegal and legal) are addressed at all levels in government and business. They make up close to 30% of Ogden’s population, but not much is done geared to them/for them. Latinos have done a good job opening up restaurants, and a few businesses and shops, but not much more than that. A few ideas were being tossed around last year regarding a market center where the current Rite Aid is. I am wondering why those plans were squelched so quickly (as a side note—would something please be done w/ that area?). Does the majority of Ogden wish they would just quietly go away? If so, it is not going to happen. Why not address them? Embrace them? Is it just me or is there a sense of tension out there? And speaking of history, the Latino migration to Ogden is merely another phase in Ogden’s history (following the Native Americans, Trappers, Mormons, Railroaders, Defense Workers) that is not going to away so easily. They are a part of who we are as a community.
Ms Reza comes to the City Council on a regular basis. She's an activist who has addressed the Council on numerous occasions.
She has pointedly asked more than a few times why the Hispanic community is not asked to have more people serve on committees.
So far, I haven't heard a decent reply from the mayor during his uninterrupted time to speil.
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