Ace Reporter Schwebke digs out further details about Boss Godfrey's secret $200 thousand gondola study
By Curmudgeon
This morning's Standard-Examiner has a front page above the fold banner headlined story about the pending UTA-funded feasibility study of Mayor Godfrey's flatland tourist sky ride to Weber State, which has been the main Weber County Forum topic of discussion, for nearly the entire week.
It is very interesting. Among other things, it confirms that the new feasibility study will be a kind of do-over for the Mayor of the feasibility study already paid for and done, minus looking at the only two options the previous study identified as viable mass transit options for Ogden. UTA told Schewbke that the new study will examine [among other things], the gondola's "financial feasibility" and "potential ridership" along with its "environmental impact." Though of course the UTA has allocated no funds to study the environmental impact of a street car line [the recommended transit option of the earlier study], or of a BRT system [the second choice of the previous study]. So: a partially UTA funded study recommends streetcar first, BRT second, gondola not recommended at all, and what happens? UTA allocates money to re-study the financial feasibility fo the gondola, and its environmental impact, and no money [so far] to study the impact of streetcar or BRT... which environmental study must be done before federal funding can be accessed. But to be fair, so far as we know, the Mayor has not asked for a dime to study the envrionmental impact of the options the earlier study endorsed. He's only asked for money to study, again, the feasibility and impact of the option the earlier study rejected: the sky ride. The question is, what in the world possessed UTA to agree to give it to him?
The new UTA funded study is on life support at the moment, UTA says, because the city hasn't submitted an acceptable management plan for the study it wants UTA to pay for. The Mayor says he hasn't done that because he's trying to "clarify" its management role. Been trying, apparently, for about a year now, when a preliminary agreement with UTA was reached.
The story reveals that Godfry already has "gondola data" from a "preliminary financial analysis" done by the SL City consulting firm of Lewis, Young, Robertson and Burningham. "Godfrey declined to provide a copy of the report to the Standard Examiner because, he said, it is a draft document."
"Draft document" is beginning to look like Godfrey-speak for "the results came out wrong, and we're not going to release it until its re-done so the results come out the way I want them to."
The Std-Ex is filing a GRAMA request for the information Godfrey is refusing to release. Godfrey also claims he "doesn't know" who paid for the report he has but won't release. We are to believe a study of the financial feasibility arrives in the mayor's lap and he has no idea who commissioned it? The consulting firm that did the study isn't returning phone calls on the matter, it seems. And, according to the Standard Examiner, "Chris Peterson... did not respond to an e-mail seeking information on whether he financed the consultant's study."
The Mayor's not talking, Chris Peterson's not talking, the consulting firm's not talking. Thus are public affairs conducted in Mayor Godfrey's Ogden
Kudos to the Std-Ex for staying on the story.
Update 5/24/07 8:59 a.m. MT: One of our gentle and attentive readers has transmitted to us a letter, which we speculate might provide the basis for Boss Godfrey's bizarre contention that he has some kind of an "agreement" for UTA funding of his secret gondola study.
Our quick perusal reveals that UTA's contingencies are quite clear, and that the UTA placed a number of serious hurdles in Boss Godfrey's funding path from the outset. It would seem that UTA at least a year ago shared most of the concerns which have been also been registered here at WCF during the last year or so, and it is evident that the UTA has been anticipating the same competent level of feasibility analysis that many of our gentle readers have been consistently demanding from the Boss Godfrey administration.
What say our gentle readers?
© 2005 - 2014 Weber County Forum™ -- All Rights Reserved
68 comments:
This whole gondola idea is so assbackwards.
UTA is agreeing to "study" building a gondola across Ogden to a barely "proposed", undersized resort. Since the resort is not even fully conceptualized we have no numbers to derive a demand for the town gondola.
Most transit lines are built in areas where extreme demand exists already evidenced by traffic jams and parking issues. WSU is already well served by a bus system that will in no way be replaced by the gondola. Even Snowbasin is not plagued by traffic jams. How would Malan's ever generate such demand. Not even the Cottonwood Canyons in SLC with five huge resorts are considering gondolas.
UTA is doing great things in SLC with light rail and streetcars. Frontrunner will be a huge contribution to the local lifestyle.
Central Ogden has the necessary density and need for redevelopment that a streetcar and dedicated corridor would bring.
Isn't it strange that in the case of road building they always seek to get ahead of the growth with huge freeway corridors and big box commercial layouts well before all the homes are built. In the case of transit they seem to put it on the back burner forever and study it to death while the inner city decays and people move out to the big-box heaven. Transit is what will revitalize central Ogden, serve the downtown-WSU route, and any possible development in Malan's Basin.
I hope the Trib and wiser heads in SLC and the ski industry speak out to expose this shell game being perpetrated on the citizens of Ogden.
Ahhhh...cloak and dagger stuff and it ain't even H'ween...or is it?
Of course Godfrey can't supply a 'management' study...he can't even manage his own CITY'S affairs.
Doesn't know who funded the study? Maybe it was Giger again? After all, curt took credit for the gondola brochures inappropriately left at the Council Chambers, for bringing the gondola car to the Newgate Mall and then to the landfill Junction!
Did this Emerald City Sugar Daddy pay for the slippery out of sight study by the high priced SLC law firm?
Or, is the boy wonder mayor getting too old to remember details? After all, he's about 23 by now, isn't he?
The serious issue here is that UTA doens't seem to be able to get its act together either! Why the heck are they even considering giving taxpayer monies to another study??? I say, ANOTHER??
Godfrey's gonna recommend 'experts'. Uh huh...an 'ex' is a has been and a 'spurt' is a drip under pressure.
Haven't WE been asking for ridership projections for this fairy ride? Haven't WE been asking for environmental and cost anayses?
Secrecy, secrecy, secrecy. One would think that Patterson, Harmer, Montgomery and the 'gang' on 25th Street would pass out from himiliation thru association with this fame and power hungry emporer. Anyone seen the emporer's tailors lately? Have they slunk away ?
Kudos to Schwebke! Good for you for staying with the story.
But, Scott...puhleeze lose the file notes you always tack on to any story about this ridiculous issue. We've all memorized the parts about Peterson's big plans..the gondola route and his dreamy resort! Give it up! Just deal with facts...and if you don't have facts...keep digging.
Stay on UTA...and get that GRAMMA!
Someone call the "odiferous cops". Thre's a rotten stench in the vicinty of the 9th floor! Doesn't smell like dog FOOD..but another four letter word.
Tec,
Gerat post!
I hope those with 'wiser heads' than the ones bungling this latest mess will prevail and stop this nonsense.
Peterson has seemingly disappeared...along with any plans he may have had in his brief case. Godfrey doesn't know who funded his 'Draft Document".
Do we have faith in a mayor with such slippery business associates and who has such a poor memory? Somehow, Godfrey 'forgets' details to most of his schemes. That's why the public and the Council are so uniformed. He can't supply facts because he can't 'remember' them.
Sure inspires me and mine.
I see that Reid has another LLC. Ashton Square LLC. The artist's rendition of his proposed Ashton Square to be built downtown is very pretty. Reid is quoted today as saying he will 'spend tens of millions of dollars"...and that "I'm investing my own money."
Well, good! One wonders where Reid is getting 'tens of millions of dollars which is his own money"...and does he have sugar daddy big bucks partners in his newest LLC? That 'severance package' Godfrey gave his pal must've yielded heavy returns in the market!
At any rate, if WE are not on the hook for any of his Ashton Square condos/office space/restaurants...I'm all for it!
I assume the consulting firm would not act w/out some sort of contract. Is it likely the City has a copy of such a contract? Even if the Mayor refuses to provide the analysis, is it possible to take a looksy at the contract? I'm also curious as to what information the consulting firm was using when it did its data gathering and analysis. Is based on the Mayor's and other gondola peddler's info?
If Geiger paid for the mystery "study" by the SL firm, then I would chock it up to coming out of Ogden tax payer's pockets.
Reason: Geigers wife, in spite of having absolutely no experience or education to qualify her, is on the city payroll to the tune of $60,000 per year plus. Her job is to "oversee" the mall construction. This of course is in addition to the Boyer company who also "oversees" the project. Bottom line - the tax payers of Ogden are subsidizing the Geiger household. No wonder they can be so generous in supporting the mayor's causes.
This is the same kind of monkey biz that is occuring at BDO with Stuart Reid. He is slopping out of Ogden's public trough to the tune of another $66,000 plus to "manage" the BDO even tho Boyer is taking fifty percent of the action for "managing" it also.
With all this public money going into the pockets of the friends of Matt, is it any wonder that Ogden's crumbling infastructure is - well crumbling? Is it surprizing that there is no money in the kitty for our legitimate needs?
We have a city government that is based on lies, manipulations, faulty memories, arrogance, treasury looting by insiders and a large expensive circle of incompetents surrounding the mayor.
Very interesting information in the latest update posted above.
This is on an official letterhead from UTA signed by John English, General Manager. He oughta know.
So Ogden lobbied UDOT in 2006 for the $247,500.00 bus facilities appropriations which now Godfrey wants to use as for gondola feasibility study.
The Mayor has to be medically deranged. Why would a sane person think they have any credibility left?
IN Re: Mr. Inglish's letter to Mayor Godfrey, dated 4 April 2006.
Very glad it has been posted. It speaks well of Mr. Inglish and UTA, and lays to rest substantially my concerns that the UTA grant would be a kind of Mayor's Option slush fund. Now that we know what UTA expects in advance by way of a condition for releasing the money, it's plain UTA is taking its oversight responsibilities seriously, and does not intend to drop a quarter of a million on a "plan" [politely so called] backed by nothing more than Hizzonah's wishin' and hopin' and dreamin'.
I'd note only three things about the letter from Mr. Inglish to Mayor Godfrey [and the letter is now a year old] that might call for a little elaboration or clarification:
(a) Mr. Inglish's letter seems to imply that what the Mayor is planning is a single "cableway" running from downtown all the way to Malan's Basin "and possibly Snow Basin." So far as Hizonnah has deigned to permit the public to know his plans, he is in fact proposing two cableways, one publicly owned, terminating at WSU, with passengers exiting the public cableway there and walking to the base station of a private cableway to take them up mountain to Malan's Basin... and not connecting to Snow Basin. Interesting that Hizzonah was still peddling the fictitious Snow Basin cable connection to Mr. Inglish.
(b) the cableway described as the Mayor's goal by Mr. Inglish includes, apparently, no stops [i.e. ways to enter or exit a cable car] between downtown Ogden and WSU. No stops between the mall redevelopment and "above" WSU. None. That's certainly interesting. How that fits UTA's definition of "public mass transit" might be worth a little probing.
(c)Mr. Inglish says UTA hopes the Mayor is successful with his gondola project, and promises that UTA will do what it can to support his efforts in that regard. I would politely suggest to Mr. Inglish that the gondola project represents a highly controversial public policy choice by Ogden city and its residents that has not been made yet, and has not been endorsed by the Council, certainly [whose members are as much elected public officials as the Mayor is]. It is at this point, and was when Mr. Inglish wrote his letter, a matter of substantial public disagreement and contention. Until such time as it becomes a publiclly-endorsed policy choice made by Ogden City Government [and not just a Mayoral wet-dream], it might be prudent of UTA not to commit its support or wishes for success to one side in the debate over the plan, or such of it as we have been permitted to know. But, as I said, the letter is a year old, and Mr. Inglish does list "public opposition" as one of the iffy matters UTA is concerned about and wants to be sure of before it releases any dinero. [See items under "Risk Analysis" in Mr. Inglish's letter.] Perhaps the "support" and "hope for success" in the opening paragraphs were just courtesy boilerplate and nothing really to worry about much, considering the contents of the rest of the letter.
All told, the release of the Inglish letter makes it plain to me that UTA is dealing with the proposed grant in a careful, prudent and professional manner. Which explains, of course, why the Mayor seems to be having so much trouble complying.
It appears that Mr. Inglish has laid out some very compelling reasons to go SLOWLY through this maze.
Weber County projects are not being funded as well as they should be because monies are going into the commuer rail which benefits the entire county. How fair is it to take away from County projects and give monies to Ogden City?
Mr. Inglish makes mention of 'private and PUBLIC monies in the trip up to the 'resort'. HUH?
I thought Godfrey promised us with a straight face, that no public monies were being considered for any of his legacy?
The best thing the officials at UTA can do is be out to lunch and out of town and just sit and wait for Hizzonah to pull his nefarious act together.
We ask for the umpteenth time: how can a "cableway" with no stops downtown benfit any businesses beneath it?
Trolleys stop every couple blocks and studies and actual results prove that MORE businesses spring up all along its route and shoppers are afoot going in and out of stores. THAT'S what drives economic revitalization!
It is disturbing to read that Mayor Godfrey does not know where the money came from that funded the private study done by the Salt Lake Company.
I have tried for the last several years to give the Mayor the benefit of any doubt about his many projects and his integrity.
This latest statement makes it difficult to continue to support him. If he does not know where the money came from for this study that he is relying upon, then he is either lying or he is incompetent.
In either case, it is a strong indication that he should not be our mayor.
It’s remarkable that Godfrey told the CC he had the 200 grand to do the study, when he really didn’t have the money, and afterwards claimed he doesn’t know who paid for the sky ride feasibility study done by Lewis, Young, Robertson & Burningham that he has in his lap, saying definitively that it is “preliminary,” but having no knowledge of who paid for it. Sheesh!
For Matt, the ends appear to justify the means. Surely even his most ardent supporters must confess Matt looks like a patent liar. Perhaps they will try to justify his actions, but they must admit Godfrey lies a great deal. “Vote for my candidate, the liar.”
Problem is, when folks know you’re a liar, they never believe anything you say, even if you start to tell the truth. Tell me Godfrey supporters: when Godfrey says things you like to hear, how do you know when he’s telling truth to you, and when he’s not?
Kudos to Schwebke for a couple of good articles and for the GRAMA request.
And Kudos to WSU, the Board of Regents, the State Office of Education, WACOG, the UTA, and the other responsible groups who’ve said, regarding the gondola proposal, “You’re kidding, right? Are you serious? Well, if you are, then, NO.”
Matt, who do you turn to now? You were a good man once. Is it God who has tutored you in so much lying, in so much manipulation, in so much deception? These visions you have seen and that you are following – understand that you imagined them. They are inconsistent with all truth. Let them go. Save your soul.
If you want to get re-elected, then do this: Drop the sky ride idea. Insist that Peterson’s ski resort must happen only if with private funds. Drop selling the golf course. Say you want to buy the rest of the undeveloped bench land and make it a nature and trail park. And be telling the truth when you do it. I won’t believe you, but many will. At least you will be on the path of recovery.
I was extremely disappointed to read this morning that Representative (and mayor candidate) Neil Hansen is going to participate in this China Junket that the Republicans in the legislature are planning for this July.
I find it very hard to believe that he would be any better than what we have now if he has no more respect for the tax payers money than to participate in such a ridiculous waste of it.
He just lost my support and vote!
SB 1344 the Kennedy Bush Amnesty Bill is due to be passed in a few days.
Inclueded: social Security for illegal aliens
No back taxes to be paid by illegals
College tuition subsidies for illegals
Lots more
Call your senators and reps:
800 417 7666
800 833 6354
No hysterial rantings...just the facts.
The Senate Bill # is 1348...typo above.
Rudi: Thanks for posting the letter from Mr. Inglish to Mayor Godfrey.
I find nothing to disagree with in the letter.
Heck, we'd all like to see the plan outlined in the year-old letter. As you've pointed out, WCF posters have been asking for that same plan for longer than UTA has.
marv--
Where in the paper can I find the article mentioning Neil Hansen's going to China with the GOP?
The story is in the SLTrib...type in Neil Hansen.
Permit me to point out that while two Democrats are currently scheduled for this boondoggle --- which is what it is --- 12 Republicans are. Draw from that whatever conclusions you wish to.
Another Dem. was scheduled to go, but pulled out, saying if he couldn't explain the trip to his neighbors and friends convincingly --- and he couldn't -- then he shouldn't be going. Got that right.
Trade delegations can be productive, but this one is much too large, seems to involve in the contingent no people particularly experienced or skilled in forming trade ties, and such trips usually run out of the executive's offices. I believe the Governor went on a China trade mission not long ago.
If this were a follow-up to that, following specific leads, contacts arragnged on the governor's trip, it might be worth the fare for some... but not 14 of them... to go, properly briefed and prepared.
I've written in other contexts here favorably of Rep. Hansen, but his explanation that maybe -- who knows? --- he'll stumble on something good for Ogden while he's there is a pretty thin fig leaf to cover up a naked boondoggle, seems to me.
This is not a good idea, at least not as it stands [size, organization, delegation make up] now.
There must be a mistake. I cannot believe that Neil Hansen would participate in this kind of foolishness and waste of tax payer money. Republicans yes, this is par for the course, but a good Domocrat like Hansen? There must be more to the story than this.
With the sketchiness of the reasons for going on this very expensive trip, I cannot support it at this time.
Going at the most expensive time of the year?? Who's idea was that?
Too many people. Too much money. And too little return from what I've read.
I hope Neil Hansen reconsiders his plan to go on this trip. If not, he needs to come on here and give an interview in the papers defending his decsion to go.
The attraction of junketting, unfortunately, knows no party bounds. If you look at the history of Congressmen and Senators taking junkets following lost elections but before the new House and Senate is seated... junkets to Europe, to South America, to Asia, in theory in order to "fact find" so they can legislate better [though they've just been defeated]... you will find the names of Republicans and Democrats alike. Check out which legislators go down to St. George for the periodic golf trip/"seminars" [wink wink nudge nudge] paid for by lobbiests. Both parties will be represented [though many more Republicans than Democrats as a rule].
Trade missions with specific agendas, well-prepared and solidly staffed, can be beneficial. This trip does not look like one of those, so far.
Here is the rest of the story about Rep. Neil Hansen going on the trip and his motives have been and alwaays will be to help out his district first and formost, He does repersent the most depress district in the state of the all the house districts. Read What he had to say about this.
Paper quote of neil hansen.
But at least one lawmaker isn't going for the art, food or history.
"We might be able to find something to bring economic development here in Ogden," said Hansen, who represents the northern Utah city.
He is but one of the lawmakers who will look for opportunities for their own legislative districts. \
This is why I like what neil does for us here in ogden, it is not abut him it is about the people he represents. and and maybe He will bring back an bullet train to ogden and NOT A GONDOLA!!!!!
hurray for neil and if the state is going to spend that kind of money anyway, on this trip I would hope that our intrest are being look at. Go Neil Go Ogden need you. and this trip is all up front not like the one godfrey took his wife and kids to in spain and austria, at city taxpaying dollars.
From what I know about neil, he is one that will keep the republicans in line while they are there, you all know that he is a leader and one that always has a proper prospective on things around him. I'm sure that he will give the taxpayer a full accounting of the trip because that is who he is. unlike godfrey did when he went over sea's. has anyone called him {godfrey}to find his story on the matter. neil will tell you the truth even if the truth hurts he is one of the most honest guys I know.
Go Neil Go:
Sorry, but some vague and general hope that a legislator will find some economically beneficial souvenir he can bring home to the voters is not a strong enough reason for going on a tax-payer financed trip like this one. Nor do I find the argument "well, the other guy did it too" very persuasive. I'm afraid, based on what we know about the trip so far from the SL Trib story, this one fails the duck test: If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and waddles like a duck... it's a duck. Or in this case, a boondoggle junket. I would like to be able to draw the opposite conclusion, but based on the evidence in hand so far, I can't.
All of the legislators taking the trip were re-elected last November. They will not have to run again until November next year... a year and a half away. That's why most trips like this are organized within six months of a previous election. The legislators understand that 18 months from now, practically none of the voters will remember the trip.
However, Mr. Hansen is not running a year and a half from now like is trip colleagues. he's running a campaign now for the Mayor's office. I think he made a mis-step on this one, a tactical mistake at the very least. I could be wrong about that, but I don't think so.
I agree with Curmudgeon on this one. Neil will have to show us compelling rasons to spend taxpayer dollars for this trip.
Aren't we on here night and day decrying Godfrey's mishandling of our funds?
Rethink this one, Neil.
Curm:
would you not agree with, that all trips like this one is bad. there are a lot of things that are good and bad that can come from them. we are now into a world ecom. and why should only the east and west coast be the only ones to be able to take an avantage of the import and exports, after all with all the ski companies here, I would think that we should be able to export those skis to china, would this help our taxe base out here.
but really there is alot of things that many peopld are not thinking of. like health safty and welfare of our own. I know that there will be some great things that will or at least come from this trip. lets find out when the good Rep. gets home from the trip. I would think that he will have a some accountiblity to talk about. so the real story is when he gets back to find out if it was a good Decision or a bad one. would you not a agree?
go neil and Hansen for next mayor:
Your excuses for Neil going on this trip is only going to make it worse. I think it would be best for him if you were to quit making this sort of comment on the subject. Nobody is going to buy it.
This is a bad idea for a guy who wants to be, and I might add hopefully will be, our next mayor. There is no way that the public will see a difference between this trip and Godfrey's boondogle to Europe.
Neil will have to show a distinct difference between himself and Godfrey inorder to get elected. This proposed trip will have the opposite effect. There will be no explaining or justifying it in the publics mind. Like Shakespear said: "A rose by any other name still smells the same"
I hope he realizes the error in this and changes his mind.
I just got of the phone with rep. hansen and he said that it is part of his legislative duty to go when the speaker of the house made the decision for the democrats to go. he wanted a balanced of both parties to go and that he and one other democrat in the house were asked to go by the leadership. so he asked should he sherk his respondsibility as an elected leader to decline when in fact he had hope that some great positve thing could come from this, so please lets, not though the baby out with the bath water. Neil is a good man and alot of you know him, he will do everything above board and in the open. lets give him a chance to show what this one trip will do for us. if he goes and thinks it was a waste of state dollars, you can bet he would not be wasting city tax dollars on other trips when he becomes mayor, like the mayor has, so once again lets trust him as he has trusted us. how about it. You know he is not doing this for personal gain.
and I invite others to talk to him about it, he freely talked to the press, you know about this trip way before he is to leave and would ask for your input about some of the issues that you may have that are important to you that may benifit the trip in your behalf. after all he is a representative of the people.
so please pick up a phone or email to him what is on your mind.
lets not make this out to be a bad thing when in fact it may not be.
just a thought. and don't get mad.
what if columbus had not explored other area of the world and just decided to stay home. because people said he would fall of the world?
Make Things Happen:
I don't think all trips by government officials overseas in pursuit of trade are bad ideas. But, to be effective, they must be very thoroughly prepped, very ably staffed, and have a very specific agreed upon agenda of potential trade contacts, etc. arranged and agreed to in advance at their destinations. I don't see [from the SL Trib story, and that's all I admit I have to go on] that the trip we are talking about is that kind of trip.
We are indeed in a global economy, and a trade delegation including some legislators, a delegation loaded for bear, so to speak, by way of preparation, advance work, etc., can pay handsome dividends. But, again, I don't see that going on here.
The vague hope that maybe they'll stumble into something good is not sufficient justification, for me, for the expenditure.
And the strategy you lay out is, for a candiate running for office just when he's returning, is a very very high risk strategy. If he comes home empty handed, believe me, he will get lots of publicity, none of it the kind he wants going into the election home stretch.
You say you "know that there will be some great things that will ... come from this trip." I don't know that. That's a hope, a wish. And a possibility, I agree but not a probability. Sure, if the Rep. comes home with news that a Chinese company will open a widget plant in Ogden, the trip will be a campaign success. But going over with nothing but a hope that something like that will happen is, I say again, a high risk strategy, campaign-wise. And not a wise expenditure of public funds either based on what we know now.
curm:
so is what you are saying is that he sould stay home and do nothing or at least go and try to do something in the best intest of the public. so which is it? go or stay?
I belive that he is the type of person to make things happenand not just little thing but big thing happen.
Your heard the saying nothing ventured nothing gained. so which is it? Stay home or go?
make things happen:
You are setting up false extremes. The only options you offer are "at least go and try to do something in the best interest of the public" on the one hand or "stay home and do nothing." That's what D. H. Fischer, the historian, calls "the fallicy of the excluded middle." Those are not the only choices. Another would be: don't go on the trip, stay in Utah and work here in visible ways for the public good and the benefit of Ogden. Since he's an [in fact the only] announced candidate for the Mayor's office, I think that third option might be the wisest one.
If he asked me, and he hasn't, I'd recommend passing on the trip to stay home and work here in visible ways for the benefit of the City.
He hasn't stepped on the plane yet, and several people here on WCF supporting his campaign for mayor, are unhappy with the trip and think he should pass on it.
We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one, I think.
Make things happen:
You are not making a lot of sense on this issue. You are in fact hurting Neil's chances by making these ridiculous arguments. If you really want Neil to succeed in the upcoming election, and I have no doubt that you do, please stop it right now.
Although you mean well, you are not helping with the big picture. Bush league thinking and tactics will not win this election in November.
Don't know how the rates compare to other bowling alley's but my daughter brought home a coupon for either a large pizza or 6 tacos and and hour and 15 minutes of bowling for $50. I don't think we will be spending much time there.
Amidst all this chatter about Hizzonah's continuing gondola deceptions [i.e. still peddling the mythical Snow Basin connection to UTA], and dust-ups about legislative boondoggle junkets, there's a good op ed piece in today's SE by three folks involved in running the Ogden Marathon. Reveals the damage criminals in the Upper Ogden Valley did in the dark hours before the marathon, tipping over porta potties, wrecking water stations and stealing water [first I heard about this by the way]. And more important, the way volunteers, ordinary homeowners, and some business people in the Valley worked in the final hours before the race to put it all back together. Right down to volunteers knocking on private homeowners' doors, asking to use their faucets to refill water bottles, to a merchant whose shop did $500 in watrer sales the morning of the race and who found out why, and insisted that the race committee accept reimbursement for the charges. And lots more.
Every now and then, there comes a story that just makes you feel good to read it, and proud of the place you live in. This is one. We can all use a story like this now and then. Link here. Read it and get your day off to a good start.
Did anyone else notice that the certain, lead-pipe cinch of selling the old Shupe-Williams site to Contempo Tile/Chianti Holding has turned into the certain, lead-pipe cinch of selling the old Shupe-Williams site to the Union Station Foundation?
I could swear that the Union Station bid was written off as a "dead letter" some months ago by Mr. Harmer.
Maybe I'm mis-remembering.
Here's the lede to the story, which is all I can get without paying for it:
Ogden OKs land sale to uninterested firm
Author: Scott Schwebke
Standard-Examiner staff
sschwebke@standard.net
Date: December 20, 2006
Publication: Standard-Examiner (Ogden, UT)
OGDEN -- The Ogden Redevelopment Agency agreed Tuesday night to sell a portion of the Shupe-Williams property for $268,142 to enable Chianti Holding LLC, the parent company of Contempo Ceramic Tile Corp. to build a new showroom and warehouse.
There just one problem.
Chianti has no plans to purchase the land that encompasses about an acre on Wall Avenue, according to Richard Pease, president of the company.
"We would like to stay where we are," said Pease,...
Didn't Mr. Harmer swear up and down at this point that Chianti was going to buy it, but it would just take more time to work out a deal? I seem to recall Mayor Godfrey making similar assertions.
It's not that they lied to the RDA/City Council, izzit? If so, I would be shocked, simply shocked, to find that out.
Neil,
If you go to China...find out why toothpaste made by the Chinese has traces of poison! Find out why Americans are the recipients of that toothpaste and under which brands that poison is sold!
Now that would be looking out for the folks.
And wasn't some of that poison in pet food too?
Is this the 'new chemical warfare'?
Would this be called a "brush with death"?
Just to follow up on my own post (possibly bad form), here's the WCF link to the Shupe-Williams property discussion.
I note with interest this post, by one of the many Anonymi who were hanging around in those days:
Anonymous said...
REI will be coming to the American Can Project soon.
Watch for the announcement after New Years.
December 24, 2006 8:55 AM
OK, it's after New Year's (although he didn't specify which New Year's) and I'm still waiting.
Man, can this city do great real estate deals, or what?
I guess your right, I will call and talk to the Rep. about not going and then the state will spend the money for someone else to go, this trip will happen with or with out him and I suppose that a good republican from Utah county would be better to go than the one that represents the most economically challaged district in the state. However I think that we are now into a global economy and we would rather let the Giegers, the Brownings, the Eccles, the Chamber, the Reids, the Scott Browns, the Kemps, still have the reins on this city. Did any of you think that the whole negitive issue on this matter ever started from the 9th floor. Don't you think that they don't want someone to step onto their little kindom here? Well people get with this, Like I said, this trip is going to happen with or with out him, I think it would be better to have him there, than not. After all he is the only one that does the things that we the people want. So I feel that we are only letting an Opportunity pass us by. So please expain to me why this is such a bad thing for him to go, when It will happen anyway? But I will call him and let him know! And I suggest that you all do the same and not talk behind his back, I think he deserves that respect.
And sharon I will ask him to look for answers to those questions. that is what he will do for us.
Mono:
Saw that story on the Hizzonah's Administration now recommending to the Council that it approve sale of the Shupe Williams property to the Ogden Station Foundation. Nice reminder of the time the Godfrey administration got the Council to approve sale of the property to a tile company that, it turned out, didn't want to buy it.
This time, the Administration, according to Mr. Harmer, is going to recommend selling the Shupe William's property to someone who acutally wants it. That'll be a change. Do you suppose Godfrey, Patterson & Harmer are actually beginning to learn on the job? Have all Godfrey's high-powered highly-paid development people marked down in their copy books "Try to sell city land to people who want to buy it instead of people who don't want to buy it"? Dare we hope?
Not to take away from this juicy thread, but there have actually been several articles of interest over the past couple of days. Some are mentioned above, some haven't been mentioned(Union Station land, our favorite legislator going to China, op-ed piece mentioned by Curm, school district funding/lack there of, etc.). However, the one I think deserves much attention is Stuart Reid's proposed project, that was mentioned in yesterday's business section. By the looks of it (aesthetically and otherwise) what a piece of crap project this is looking to be. And Scott Brown as project manager, give me a break. What type of deals are Reid and Brown getting from the City (and elsewhere)? It's bad enough we get these turds to work for the City, but the fact that they choose to stick around afterwards is plain unnerving.
Would Jill (or somebody)please post the article she references?
Never mind. Found it.
OK, now I’ve read the article, and thanks be to Jill for calling it out. Now, I would like to comment (surprise, surprise.)
1. It looks like a nice project. (But of course, the architect’s drawings always look nice.)
2. Nonetheless, it's good to see private money going into downtown, instead of the constant flow of tax dollars and government-private “partnerships” where the city takes all the risk and private people stand to receive all the benefit, if any. This looks like a big project with real private money. Hey, now that’s different.
3. Where does a guy like Stuart Reid, a lifelong bureaucrat, come up with the wherewithal to do a project like this? Something seems weird.
4. Where does a guy like Stuart Reid come up with the dough to live in one of the penthouses?
5. Is Property Reserve (LDS Church) kicking in for this? Is the city underwriting it somehow?
6. Is there something fishy here? Or are Reid and Brown really the managerial geniuses Godfrey says they are, who’ve just pitched this deal and come up with the money themselves?
danny, post the link will ya, I would like to see it too.
danny-
Something does not seem quite right, to me. Maybe nothing weird is going on and Mr. Reid is putting his own cheddar on the line with his unwavering belief in Ogden’s downtown reemergence, but it has been my experience that when something doesn’t seem quite right in O-town that something is indeed not right.
Also, as far as the building looking nice, I could not disagree more. And my point is that hardly anything in this mall site is well planned or designed. It is hodge podge uses (not well planned mixed-uses) and blasé architecture that is contextually insensitive. It is flavor of the month stuff that goes against some of Ogden’s greater urban design nature.
Also, if I had the link, I would have posted it long ago. But I read the ink hard copy, not the online version (call me old skool).
make things happen:
In your last post you write: "So please expain to me why this is such a bad thing for him to go, when It will happen anyway?"
Seems like there have been several posts above that do that exact thing. Perhaps you just don't want to accept what is being said, or maybe you are not bright enough to understand.
Your insipid posts are doing way more harm than good. For Neil's sake I think you should stop and wisen up a bit. Your naivete and identity are both showing.
The mayor's race will not be won with bush league tactics.
Mother:
The link is below. I supply it in hopes that the story will convince you to spring for a subscription to the SE because its a necessary source for keeping up with what's going on in Junction City. Truly.
Link here.
Given the fairly recent flurry of interest on this Forum in Scott Brown and his distinguished exit stage left from Public Life, I'm surprised no one commented until today on his predictable and rapid reemergence as a new-and-improved sidekick to Scrupulous Stu Reid. Someone, in fact, predicted he'd be back before we could blink, and whoever you were, you ought to be gloating! And Ozboy's speculations about "back room" deals at the Kokomo Klub appear to have been valid.
Indeed, Danny, where DID Bishop Reid get the wherewithal for penthouse living? Boggles the mind. Has he been sitting on family money all this time? If he failed to foresee public speculation on this painfully obvious question, God save us.
Given that Ashton Square will become the temple's immediate neighbor to the south, and whose penthouse will be eye-to-eye with Moroni's golden trumpet, I'll be surprised if Property Reserve didn't have to sign off on this somehow.
Jill: You're right, of course, in your observations on the architecture. But I suspect this is as good as it gets. Ogden cannot be a great city without a skyline filling that deplorable hole downtown. If Bishop Reid and Parson Brown are the ones to bring this off, then let Ashton Square rise forthwith.
Jill,
With respect to your comments about architecture, I agree.
It would be nice to see the city develop some kind of theme instead of the hodge podge.
Years ago when they were planning the conference center, I suggested they work some art deco into the design, which they did. (I don't know if it was because of my suggestion or not.)
But how does the city have a theme, short of having some bureaucrat pick and choose designs? Perhaps a focus group could come up with a suggested theme, together with thematic elements that would be considered consistent with that theme? I suspect people, including developers, would appreciate it.
Do you have a suggestion? If you do, you might be ahead of your time. It's a problem all cities have.
Moroni M:
You wrote: Scott Brown and his distinguished exit stage left from Public Life.
Permit me to respectfully note that the Mayor for whom Mr. Brown worked while on the public payroll is a Republican, and so Mr. Brown's departure from public life might more accurately be described as "exiting stage right."
[Grin].
Sorry, MM. Couldn't resist.
The rationalization above about this China trip happening rather Hansen goes or not is pretty silly.
It is like a guy observing a gang going into a bank with a robbery about to happen and he decides to join in because "it's going to happen anyway!"
There is no amount of deoderant that will sanitize this trip. It stinks, it is a Republican boondoggle. The legislative leadership has only invited Hansen and the other Demo to go in order to spread the blame so they don't take all the political heat from it. It is rather disappointing to think that Hansen has fallen for this crap.
Does any one in their right mind really think that Hansen is going to "keep" a bunch of arrogant republican legislators "in line"?
Does any one with an ounce of intelligence really think that this large republican contigent with the token Democrat is actually going to let that Demo participate in any meaningful way and to especially shine? Do you think Bramble is going to let Hansen even talk to any one important, or bring home bacon to Ogden instead of Provo?
I predict that if he goes it will derail his mayorial ambitions for good. Hopefully there will be another viable and quality candidate appear to take Godfrey on in November. One who is savvy enough to comprehend elementary situations like this one.
David,
You’re right, it is a problem, but I don’t think that all cities have it (the great European and other International communities don’t, as well as some of the United States’ great urban places—Portland, Chicago and San Francisco come to mind). And Ogden has done an excellent job w/in its local historic districts (Eccles, 25th Street, and Jefferson) in terms of broader design elements, which is in my opinion part of why these places are still such wonderful places today.
Achieving good urban design used to be a common sensibility among those developing w/in cities, a lot of that has been lost, unfortunately. And design review is difficult to legislate today. One counter to the problem that I think would help is that if our City leaders knew what to ask and look for, or at least have an idea of what to look for. Since developers don’t care, they’ll put up the cheapest piece of crap they can throw together meeting the requirements at the minimum allowable by our building officials, it is left to our City officials and larger community to help educate them and try to help steer them in a more proper direction. As far as a theme goes, what about context and harmony? Ogden has phenomenal historic architecture and other design elements, why not pick up off of those? I am at least glad to see the City moving forward w/ beautifying Washington Boulevard and start to make it a real boulevard. We need to start taking pride in our city again and start to ask for more, not just take whatever is given to us. Moroni Mac--I think we can, actually, do better.
Curm:
My Chinese neighbors drive only in counterclockwise patterns, because they know two Wongs don't make a right.
In re: Brown and Reid
Seems to me that Mr. Brown, no longer employed by the public, is free to take whatever employment he is offered. Seems to me, Mr. Reid, to manage his condo block built with private investment money on his own land, is free to hire whomever he likes to ramrod the operation. And I do seem to recall nearly everyone on both sides of whatever was being discussed in re: Mr. Brown, commented that he was "the smartest guy in the room." Reid's choice may be a wise one. If not, if the project is mis-managed, it's Reid and his investors who will most directly shoulder the burden of their poor judgment.
All of which means Reid hiring Brown is of absolutely no concern to me. None of my business, and I suggest none of the public's business either. I hope their condo block succeeds brilliantly, for it will be good for Ogden if it does.
As for the design's attractiveness... well, that's always really a matter of personal taste. And there is no accounting for tastes. Some people, I am told, think George Bush would be a great guy to invite over for a back yard barbecue. There is no accounting for tastes.
The design of the project was doubtless driven by the need to create all that balcony space as a selling point... hence the kind of stepped-back modified Aztec temple outline. And really, condos have to work as homes, as living spaces... and so it is more important that the interior archetecture "work" in this kind of building than that the exterior profiles "work".
ozboy, You seem to hve a tendency to insult anyone posting n the blog ltely.
Why call someone's remarks insipid just because you don't agree.
You are not helping bloggers come forth with comments with your attitude.
Or is this your personal sop box?
Curm-
I think it is more than just taste, that is if we do want to make Ogden a more livable place. Some communities are catching on and some aren’t, I hope Ogden does. Also, past community builders (when there was such a thing as the public or common good) used to understand that, that is why American cities used to be much better places than they are today, generally speaking. We have gotten away from that as a society as the automobile, paved roads, modernism (the stylistic movement), and other elements have changed us. Today there is a huge movement to go back to the way we used to design places, because they did work (ie, going back to the streetcar, interurban transit, mixed-uses, higher densities, open-spaces, etc.). Anyway, maybe I’m belaboring the point, but projects like this w/in Ogden’s central core should have more to offer and do reflect larger underlying issues.
Are any of the people on this blog going to do anything for Ogden or are you all just complainers like Godfrey said you were?
Ya we're going to do something. We have a giant community BBQ in November planned. We're going to doe a special spitroast, featuring Boss Godfey as the main course.
Yum!
Pass me another jug of your wine, wine etc.
wine & wine:
Ah, I was wondering when the charge, much beloved of the Mayor and his Gondolista Amen Chorus, that has, warmed over several times, been served up here not infrequently would appear again. I guess that means it's necessary to point out again that regular posters here include long-time community activists, volunteers, participants in an endless variety of activities to improve life in Ogden, from volunteer tutoring of school children to working as volunteers in literacy programs to spending time, money and effort working for and with a varity of civic groups like the Sierra Club and Weber Pathways and SmartGrowthOgden to volunteers for community events like the Ogden Marathon and... well, the list goes on and on. Not to mention being active citizens, taking part in public meetings, holding down jobs, owning homes, running businesses and doing most things citizens do as part of their civic life.
The conceit that only those who support the Mayor's dark obsession with building a 35 to 50 million dollar tourist sky ride to WSU, financed by the sale of the city's biggest park and the last large piece of undeveloped benchland in the city are "doing something for Ogden" and that all others are simply "naysayers" --- that's the Amen Chorus' preferred term; didn't you get the memo? --- is pretty old, shopworn and thoroughly discredited by now.
You'd also know that people regularly post here good news about Ogden, and comment on it as well, including praise for the Administration when it achieves something good for the community.
I'm curious, though. What exactly do you mean by "do anything for Ogden?"
J. Brown
I read the posts by ozboy that you refer to and I agree with him on his evaluation of them!
Read these posts he was refering to and tell us what you would call them. Would you say they are brilliant? Insightfull? Well thought out? Intelligent?
My reaction after re-reading them is that they were indeed insipid. So does that mean that by calling them what they are ozboy was insulting everybody on the blog? Or were you the writer of them and now have your feelings hurt?
Jill:
One of the things I like about WCF is, out of the blue, a discussion about urban archetecture springs up.
You wrote: Today there is a huge movement to go back to the way we used to design places, because they did work (ie, going back to the streetcar, interurban transit, mixed-uses, higher densities, open-spaces, etc.).
On all that, I couldn't agree more. What I thought you were commenting on was the design of the particular condo block Mr. Reid is building, not on the design of the entire mall redevelopment project, or the "design" of Ogden's [we hope] rejuvenating downtown in general. [I think the design of the building on the corner of Lincoln and 25th, where the new furniture store you can't see into because the windows are tinted so darkly, was very nicely done, fitting in well with the turn of the century look and feel of 25th Street Ogden --- at last --- decided to preserve.]
One of the concerns I have about the overall design of the mall property itself is the public space included. I'm not at all sure even now what it will be, how large it will be, and if it will serve as an effective public space like, say, Gallivan Plaza does in SLC. We'll have to see. But again, I took your first comments to be directed only at the design of the Reid condo block, and that's what I replied to.
You also wrote: Anyway, maybe I’m belaboring the point, but projects like this w/in Ogden’s central core should have more to offer and do reflect larger underlying issues.
Again, if that's aimed at the entire mall redevelopment plan, you may be right. But if it's a comment on the Reid condo, that its "look" should fit into some city-designated design preference.... well, I'm of two minds about that.
Such "design rules" tend to work, in my experience, only where they are designed to preserve a historically-established style that is in danger of being submerged and destroyed by the advance of neo-brutalist buildings like the gawd-awful Key Bank monstrosity at the corner of Washington and 25th. Santa Fe comes to mind as a place where mandated style for new construction and renovation seems to have worked well to preserve the historic look and feel of the city. French Quarter in New Orleans [though the city acted way too late after much had already been destroyed] is another.
It works less well, I think, where there is no historical look and feel left, and cities simply try by fiat to create a new [usually old] style. I've seen that in some Long Island towns, where the result is a kind of cloying omnipresent decreed "colonial style" that has been created from the ground up. Kitch squared.
Some of the most interesting downtowns, in fact, are interesting because they have no overwhelming single style, but are gloriously eclectic, and are interesting for that reason. Downtown Salt Lake City is like that, I think [though much of it may soon disappear into the new mega-mall development and go the way of the Hotel at Temple Square]. One of the best examples I know of of 1940s Soviet-style archetecture is the Grand America Hotel there, built for the Olympics just six years ago. I gaze at it in awe every time I vist. And it's just a couple of blocks for the grand old courthouse, late 19th Century stone construction, which is just across from the really interesting new SLC downtown library. I like that kind of eclecticism.
I wish, for example, downtown Ogden still had that fabulous gingerbread old hotel on the Key Bank site downtown, just up the block from Peery's Egyptian Theater, and across the street from the much more respectable and imposing Ben Lomand [which gem I am glad has been preserved and the renovators of which, who I am informed are determined to return the building to its historic interior look and feel, deserve a great deal of praise]. Think what an interesting intersection that would be, with the Ben Lomand, the old gingerbread hotel and the Egyptian theater all within sight of someone standing on the corner.
I will leave the archetecture of the Pidgeon Hole Mail Box Style Federal Building just down the block diplomatically undiscussed.
So it varies.
Your comments applied to the overall mall redevelopment plan may be, and I suspect in important respects are, on the money. But applied to the Reid building's archetecture alone, not so much. Nor am I sure that a single city-sanctioned style for downtown construction would work better in Ogden than encouraging, or at least permitting, a more eclectic approach.
Minus of course any more Key Bank or Federal Building neo-brutalist constructions.
Don't you guys be a bunch of girly men. Curm did you know that you talk to much. I wish this blog had its own amen choir like us godfreyites.
Sharon brought up Reid's new LLC and artist's rendition of his new complex yesterday.
The picture and story are in yesterday's business section...front page.
The question was asked...did he invest that severance package from Godfrey to make so much money to invest in this project?
If Ogdenites don't pony up the dough...for me too, it's a go.
That name "Burningham" rings a bell...
In April of last year, a neighbor of mine attended one of Godfrey's by-invitation dog-and-pony shows at the Chamber of Commerce building (former City Council chambers). As I recall from what she told me afterwards, she asked Godfrey whether any feasibility studies of the Peterson proposal were being done, and he said yes, and mentioned the name of this Lewis-Young-Robertson-Burningham firm. Except either Godfrey or my neighbor forgot one or two of the names, and I think Burningham came out Birmingham. But it must have been the same firm.
So apparently they've been involved for over a year. I wonder when the draft report was written? I wonder whether it looks into the whole project, or just the urban gondola? And of course, I wonder whether they were hired by the city, or by Peterson, or by someone else.
So many questions...
Wine Wine:
You wrote: Curm did you know that you talk to much.
Three points:
a. One nice thing about blogs is that you can ignore whatever posts you find not worth the time or trouble or that simply don't intererst you. I do.
b. Another nice thing about blogs is that they give people the space to discuss things in some detail, particular matters that can't be discussed well at bumper-sticker-slogan length.
c. And yet another thing nice about blogs is that they permit discussions among complete stranges whose attention span is longer than your average tv sound bite.
I appreciate all those that have shown their loyalty and support in my campaign for mayor, I also appreciate the concern of all my constituents.
It has come to my attention that some discussion has occurred on this blog today regarding a proposed trip to China for Utah Legislators.
I am still in the process of gathering more information and facts from the Speaker of the House, other legislators, and local business leaders regarding the potential outcome for economic development for the State of Utah, as well as the citizens of Ogden.
I'm also in the process of weighing the pros and cons to determine whether or not this particular invitation from China will generate a substantial partnership and establish international connections and benefit our state, as well my legislative district.
As many of you know, I welcome any and all of your input. If you have additional information that I can use in my decision-making process, please feel free to call me.
Thank you, Representative Neil Hansen
Rep Neil,
The tone of your post suggests that you have not definitively made a YES decision?
Right?
Keep us posted. It would appear that the majority posting here are against you going on this trip to China. Our facts about the benefits derived from this undertaking are scarce.
Don't do anything to undermine your mayoral candidancy.
Neil Hansen's reply above is a refreshing change from the autocratic and arrogant response we would receive from Lord Godfrey if he were in Neil's position.
I hope that he makes his go or no go decision based upon what he learns, and not from any public clamor that has appeared on this blog, or pressures he may receive from legislative leadership. In other words, what is best for the citizens of Ogden, not the commenters herein or power brokers on capitol hill.
I see his response as an attitude to serve his constituents, not his ego or some small self centered clique.
I do think he will be a very good mayor for all of Ogden's citizens.
I also offer my apology to any one that has been offended by my "rough" language in recent posts.
So if anything I wrote singed your eye balls, please re-read and substitute any such offensive passages with: Gol Darn it, Dadgum, and Blazes. One thing I don't regret however, is getting pi___ed off about being accused of attacking the Mormon Church.
Post a Comment