Thanks to the efforts of regular contributor Curmudgeon, we are delighted this morning to be able present for our readers a report on last night's council work session, where the topics of a proposed tax increment incentive to Adams Air to move a second facility here, and Ogden's being asked to pass a resolution in support of the Transportation Tax Referendum were discussed, along with other agenda items.
We'll incorporate Curmudgeon's lead paragraphs here:
The City Council work session began, tonight, with Ms. Janine Eller of Management Service, presenting the annual real property report [report on real property sold or acquired by all city agencies over the previous fiscal year.] Third on the agenda [I’ll get to second in a moment], Ms. Laura Lewis of LYR&B delivered a long briefing called “Municipal Bonding 101" discussing various kinds of municipal bonds and debt, interest rates, funding options, benefits and advantages and drawbacks of each. This was in anticipation, I gathered, of Ogden’s facing significant costs next year to finance the rebuilding of its water and sewer systems.Read Curmudgeon's full report.
Second on the agenda was an RDA Board session with Mr. Harmer discussing a request for Ogden to grant Adams Aircraft approximately $900,000 in tax increment rebates as an inducement to move all of its manufacturing facilities, and its manufacturing headquarters to Ogden. Mr. Harmer summarized the situation this way: Adams is currently moving its production facilities for one of its two aircraft under production/development to Ogden. It has already received [via Kemp] tax increment incentives for doing that. Got incentives from the state as well. However, it also has a plant in Pueblo, CO for which it got incentives as well. Some of the parts for both models under production will be manufactured at Pueblo and shipped to Ogden for assembly. Some of the company’s management thinks it might be more efficient to move its entire manufacturing operation to Ogden, and its manufacturing division HQ as well. The Company Board, however, is not convinced because of the up-front cash cost of doing that. It will have to repay Pueblo the $2,000,000 in incentives it got to move its manufacturing plant there, plus interest. It will have to, for a time, finance duplicate tooling [so Pueblo can continue to operate until Ogden comes on line.] And so on. The Board figures the total cash outlay to move it all to Ogden would be an additional $12,000,000, which it is willing to consider, if the company management can find a way to offset a substantial portion of that figure. [...]
We'll also briefly highlight, without editorial comment, three items appearing this morning in the Standard-Examiner:
1) Scott Schwebke provides additional information on the Adams Aircraft topic discussed in Curmudgeon's above report here.
2) For a full load of B.S., read the Std-Ex guest editorial of Dave Hardman, President and CEO of the Ogden/Weber Chamber of Commerce, wherein the poor misguided gondolist provides a prolonged whine about mayoral candidate Van Hooser's decision to decline an invitation for a Chamber sponsored debate.
3) Boss Godfrey's administration continues to stonewall the Ogden Sierra Club's continuing efforts to obtain even the most basic information about the operations of Ogden City government. Scott Schwebke's page C-1 story on this topic can be viewed here.
We have a packed calender today and we're thus posting this article on the fly. In the event that we've missed an important news item or two, we know we can rely upon or readers to fill in the rest. And as always, you are all invited to treat this article as an open topic thread.
It's all yours, gentle readers. Web surfers all over the blogosphere are waiting to know what's on the minds of Weber County Forum readers this Friday morning.
46 comments:
Curmudgeon said...
In this morning's SE, Mr. Dave Hardman [President, CEO and paid professional spin-meister for the Ogden Weber Chamber of Commerce] has been granted a large amount of space on the op-ed page to throw a hissy fit over Ms. Van Hooser's calling the Chamber's leadership "biased" in favor of Mayor Godfrey in the current election. Mr. Hardman is shocked --- shocked! --- that Ms. Van Hooser or anyone else could possibly think that.
"The chamber," Mr. Hardman, his rhetorical chest positively puffing with righteous indignation, "does support all local leaders who are for progress in community growth." And it supports "the incredible efforts of community leaders who have the desire and fortitude to take chances with new ideas to build a tax base for their community and ultimately our county." And "the chamber has agreed with the mayor and council of Ogden on a number of development projects."
His indignant Babbitry continues on for column inch after column inch. [It's one of the longer "guest commentaries" I can recall in the SE.] But oddly, nowhere... not even once... do any of the following terms appear: "gondola" or "sale of Mt. Ogden Park" or "Peterson Proposal." Not a single time. Imagine that.
I find that passing strange since it was Mr. Hardman who was the Chamber's chief spokesman in supporting, loudly, for the last two years the sale of Mt. Ogden Park and its development as a gated community of up-scale vacation homes all to finance [in part] a flatland gondola between WSU and downtown. A plan that we now know, according to Mayor Godfrey, had no prayer of succeeding because the parklands on which Mr. Peterson hoped to erect his vacation villas was too steep to construct enough of them.
There are only two ways, then, to explain Mr. Hardman's two years of cheerleading for the whole Peterson Proposal package [which, according to its website, the Chamber still endorses in its entirety]: (a) the Council under Mr. Hardman's leadership endorsed the project and park sale and gondola without doing a scintilla of research to determine if it was feasible at all. Or (b) somehow, the hills east of Ogden got significantly steeper over the last two years.
But I can understand why Chamber Spin-Meister Hardman did not so much as mention "park sale" or "gondola" or "Peterson Proposal" in his attack on Ms. Van Hooser. He led the Council blindly over the cliff to support, unthinkingly and without evidence, the proposal the Mayor himself has now abandoned. He's embarrassed, and he's embarrassed the Chamber. I can understand that. In similar circumstances, I'd be embarrassed too.
Mr. Hardman is a big Dildo.
The former tie salesman goes to great lengths describing how the chamber committees function and come up with stuff. I would love to see any committee notes or minutes that led to the continuing full fledged support of the non existing peterson/gondola project.
Which leaders of industry signed on? Hook line and sinker. Would any conduct their own affairs in such a manner?
Maybe Hardman should go back to the only thing he's good at, he could approach the Kingstons, and introduce a tie department in their dollar stores. He should stick to matching ties to other materials by color and design.
If the chamber is for anyone that is for progress then why is it that only republicans are the one to get the political donations, (see R & O report submitted to the lt. governor's office) Boy wouldn't it be great if they played fair, is it only the republicans that stand for progress? Well Mr. Harman please explain that one.
Correction:
In my snarky post above about Mr. Hardman's op-ed essay in today's SE, I implied that he'd been given an unusually large amount of space for his piece today.
I was wrong. Mr. Porter just sent me the following word-counts for recent op-ed pieces:
Hardman's today is 704 words.
The Eyre piece: 872.
Mike Vaughan's Top of Utah Voices piece on Tuesday: 790.
Also on Tuesday, Lurlen Knight's piece on Syracuse government: 901.
Jay Wamsley's Monday Top of Utah Voices column: 877.
Judy Lemmons' Saturday piece on the Hero Flight: 588.
So, I was wrong. Not only did he tell me that, he provided the evidence to back it up. All I can offer by way of explanation is that wading through Mr. Hardman's whining homily in praise of the Chamber which employs him seemed like an uncommonly long slog as I was making it.
My apologies to Mr. Porter, who edits the op-ed page.
Mr. Porter added in his note to me the following :
There are no cast-in-concrete length guidelines [for op-ed pieces] as there are with letters. I generally... make each decision individually. I do consider whether or not the subject has already been frequently addressed (which means I would look more favorably on shorter pieces, or ask authors of longer pieces to trim from, say, 900 words to 700, 600 or 500). Each commentary... is unique, since the quality of the writing, the subject matter, its timeliness, etc., comes into play. And, frankly, it also makes a difference if I have several items waiting to be run.
These seem like eminently sensible rules-of-thumb to apply to op-ed submissions to me. Were I editing the page, I'd probably do something very similar.
Thanks again to Mr. Porter for correcting my mistake. [I'm always happy to have something I got wrong corrected.]
What happened to the Utah League of Women Voters? Isn't this the organization that traditionally sponsors professionally moderated debates in advance of Ogden City elections? Why aren't they sponsoring a debate? Did the woman-hater Matthew Godfrey give them the word that he wouldn't participate in a debate sponsored by a womens' group, in an election when all his hand-selected rubber stamp candidates are opposed by women?
Inquiring minds want to know.
We have all had strong suspicions for a long time that Godfrey and his administration can't play on a level playing field, but have to skew it in order to win, well I received proof yesterday. I received a phone call from a friend who had just been to a business in town that had a Godfrey sign in their window. Since my friend is anti-Godfrey and pretty outspoken, he mentioned their support of Godfrey. They denied supporting Godfrey, but told him that they had been to the City Offices to obtain a permit to make some physical changes to their building. It was "suggested" to them that they put a Godfrey sign up to ensure that their project was inspected in a timely and positive manner. They were told that a relative of the mayor's was the head of that department and was over the kind of inspections that would need to be done on their project. They agreed to put Godfrey's sign up because they said that they could not afford to chance any delays by bucking the mayor.
WHAT CORRUPTNESS PERMEATES THE CITY ADMINISTRATION -- BEGINNING WITH THE MAYOR!!! Voters need to make sure that this unsavory kind of business ethics are halted by voting the Godfrey out of office and for sure not electing the underhanded former car dealer, Kent Peterson to the Council. IN FACT, VOTE FOR THE WOMEN TO RESTORE INTEGRITY AND TRANSPARENCY OF CITY GOVERNMENT. These women are all above reproach, are highly intelligent, independent thinkers and will bring a most welcome change to city government. The growth of downtown will be encouraged through HONEST AND FAIR business dealings. OGDEN DESERVES THIS KIND OF GOVERNMENT!!
I've heard something bout a Petition Against the Junction or whatever it was called that Mitch Moyes tried to get all the signatures on.
I understand the purpose of the petition was to try to get a vote by Ogden taxpayers on the building that was proposed to be built at that time.
The story I hear goes that not enough signatures were collected because many of the petitions that were out in restaurants and stores for people to sign wound up being stolen after some signatures were put on.
Nobody could find the petitions. I couldn't understand why anyone would want a pile of half-done petitions with names and addresses and phone numbers on them?
Well, the story I have heard lately is that some of the petitions have surfaced and some of the people who had signed them have had a Godfrey representative show up to "talk" to them.
Incidentally, is it true that R&O Construction got a cost plus contract to put up the Junction and that they are still working on completing the Fat Cats and Gold Gym's building?
If this is true, then why did we have the Grand Opening if the building is still not finished?
There is an R&O Construction that has filed on the Lt. Guv's site as having donated $10,000.00 to Mayor Matthew Godfrey's current political campaign.
I am new to town but I don't remember in the list of donations reported on the Mayor's financial report that was shown on this Blog site that R&O was listed for a $10,000.00 campaign donation to Mayor Godfrey.
Did anyone else notice?
It was reported on 8-6-07 a donation by R&O $2500.00
Their records submitted to the Lieutenant Governor, showed a donation of $10,000.00 on 7-31-07.
Smells of rotten fish?
John and New,
I'm always fascinated by the unsubstantiated rumors that I read on this site. Many of them sound plausible. Quite a few are later validated by authoritative sources. Others turn out to be false, and still others (the most frustrating category) are never proved or disproved. Reading this blog is a constant exercise in critical thinking (a skill that I try to teach my students).
John: Your rumor is a very serious (criminal!) charge against the Godfrey administration which, if true, would create a major scandal. But how can anyone check it? It's anonymous hearsay. If this story is true, I hope you don't think posting it on this blog is sufficient to blow the whistle. You should make every effort to get this business owner to talk to a reporter, or a city council member, or a law enforcement officer. (If the story isn't true, you shouldn't have posted it!)
New: Your rumor about the petitions is not only anonymous hearsay but is also vague. What do you mean when you say a Godfrey rep showed up to "talk" to them?
On the other hand, the R&O Construction contribution to Godfrey is documented and raises a legitimate question about Godfrey's disclosure statement. I suppose he'll claim that he didn't actually receive the contribution until after the disclosure deadline (or temporarily lost it or the equivalent). So we'll probably have to just wait and see if it shows up on his next statement, in late October.
(Does the Lieutenant Governor's office require disclosure of contributions to local candidates? I thought they only got involved in state-level races. The appearance of this contribution to Godfrey on the R&O disclosure statement may be a lucky accident.)
Interesting post, Dan. We too have been puzzled about the implications of the two campaign finance documents that have been linked here over the past few days. And we also agree that the lumpencitizens of this blog have overturned more than a few rocks, and exposed a fair number of scurrying cockroaches over the past few years, although our readers' record is not entirely perfect on this.
For those who haven't tuned in on this latest brouhaha yet, Here are the two operative documents in the current controversy:
1) The R&O Construction "Report of Expenditures for Corporations" dated 9/12/07.
This document lists an "itemized expenditure" toward the Matthew Godfrey of $10,000, posted on 7/31/07
2)Boss Godfrey's "First Report of Contributions & Expenditures for Candidates," dated a month later, i.e., 8/31/07
This document lists a "conribution received," from R&O Construction, in the sum of $2,500, posted on 8/6/07.
Significantly, we think, the former document list no separate $2,500 contribution prior to the $10,000 campaign donation posted on the R&O document on 7/31/07. Clearly, according to Mayor Godfrey's own filings, R&O is credited with the $2,500 contribution however, although that lesser sum fails to appear anywhere within R&O's state filings disclosures.
Although questions may exist as to whether R&O's $10,000 donation arrived before Godfrey's mandatory Ogden City 8/31/07 disclosure statement, the question remains:
What about the initial $2,500, which appear nowhere in R&O's financial statement, separate from the $10,000 that HAS BEEN DISCLOSED?
And what about the $7,500 discrepancy?
These questions alone raise the question of whether Boss Godfrey's name should appear on the November 6 ballot.
The Ogden City Code is quite clear on this, BTW:
"1-8-5: FAILURE TO FILE; INACCURATE OR INCOMPLETE:
A. Inspection; Written Notice: The City Recorder shall inspect all financial statements within two (2) days after the same are filed. If it appears that any candidate or personal campaign committee has failed to file a statement as required by law or if it appears that the statement does not conform to law or upon complaint in writing by a candidate or by a voter that a statement filed does not conform to law, the City Recorder shall notify the delinquent personal campaign committee or candidate, in writing, requesting compliance with this Chapter.[...]
"1-8-6: UNLAWFUL ACTS DESIGNATED:
A. Name On Ballot Prior To Filing Statement: The name of a candidate shall not be printed on, or if already printed shall be removed from, the official ballot for the ensuing election unless the statements of contributions and expenditures relating to the candidate have been filed by the candidate or the candidate's personal campaign committee as required by this Chapter...."
Interesting issue that some of the readers here have raised. It will be even more interesting to see how it all shakes out...
Assuming that some fine Ogden CIty citizen is willing to shell out the bucks, file a lawsuit, and call Boss Godfrey on this seeming failure to comply with the rules.
(Somehow, we don't believe Gary Williams, Ogden City Attorney, who is charged by the Ogden City Code to enforce our election ordinances, will lift even a finger on this.)
I felt like Hardman's comments were silly. But I did think it was funny that he used the word "biased" so many times - a classic Freudian slip.
"Yes the chamber is biased."
But he forgot one. He is not only "biased", but a political "hack."
Hey Hardman, now try to work THAT word 12 times into an editorial.
Dave Hardman is an embarrassment to the Ogden/Weber Chamber.
We've heard this numerous times from business heavyweight friends who are Chamber members.
The question though is how the glaring problem can be fixed.
The majority of Chamber members are inexperienced business startups, whose participation in the chamber is designed for networking, and the passing out of business cards.
When will the Chamber "grow up," and become a real representive organization for the Ogden City business community in general?
It certainly won't happen until Dave Hardman is ousted from his so-called leadership role.
Dan, the so-called "rumor" in my prior post is true. The owners were encouraged and coaxed to go public with their story, and told the mayor would have no power then, but they still refused to report the incident to someone who could could take the proper action, but they were scared. I am furious that Godfrey gets away with such misuse of his position.
John:
You are a liar, or are repeating the lie of another. Neither says does you honor. Don't you find it a little odd that an allegation so outrageous, yet so easy of proof, remains uncorroborated and unsubstantiated.
There are hundreds of Godfrey critics who would jump at the chance to blow the whistle on such an act if it were true. It is telling that you seem to have found the one shrinking violet in the community who is too timid to come forward with the facts of such a startling revelation.
Balderdash!
We have news for you, unbelievable.
We get at least 100 emails every day, a fair portion of which are from Ogden City small business-people, who report the same or similar facts about which John has reported.
Virtually all of them are incensed. But like many people in Ogden city, they're afraid to complain, because they know there's at least some possibility of Godfrey's being re-elected in November.
John's report is very similar to other reports we've received quite frequently.
After the election, there are some people who have agreed to speak up about Godfrey's authoritarian tactics.
When people are ready to speak out, in the safety of of Boss Godfrey's probable general election defeat, we promise you'll get an ear-full. Until then, we congratulate John for bringing the sad truth of Boss Godfrey's authoritarian tyranny to our Weber County Forum readership.
Paranoia and fear abounds in the Ogden City business community, despite Dave Hardman's ridiculous recent sappy efforts to pretend otherwise.
Perhaps you should read a few articles here, unbelievable, just to wrap your brain about the things you won't read about in the Standard-Examiner.
If you read our articles with an "open mind and a pure heart," you'll discover that what you read here is true.
One more thing, unbelievable.
If you're curious enough to read one single article here, we'd recommend that you read this one.
If you come out of this saying that Boss Godfrey is anything but a liar, please furnish your opposing data.
Boss Godfrey has been aware of this article for at least three friggin' weeks, yet neither he, nor his brownshirt minions have had the guts to address the revelations of this article.
They just keep on telling their lies... in the mistaken belief that we lumpencitizens are just a flock of dumb sheep.
Don't be a dumb sheep. Read up!
In [partial] defense of Unbelievable:
Dan's point about John's claim, made some posts ago, still applies. Absent someone willing to go on the record, such allegations remain merely speculations and rumors. Those who read or hear them can assign them such weight as they like or their own experience suggests, but rumors and allegations only they still will be, unless and until someone is willing to go on the record.
Unbelievable enters the realm of speculation himself when he dismisses such claims as unthinkable balderdash. The specific claim John reported may or may not be true, but it has not been demonstrated that such claims are on their face unthinkable balderdash.
But people can refer to one, or ten, or a hundred such rumors and speculations as John passed on, and it will not render them true or proven until people are willing to go on the record. On that point at least, Unbelievable is correct.
What a load of B.S., gentle Curmudgeon -- as if you don't know the actual score.
Business owners are not the only ones who fear Boss Godfrey. Look at the civil service employees within the city (police/fire). Godfrey used his special influence to get a bill passed through the state legislature eliminating civil service commission requirement for Ogden City. Fortunately for the employees the CC wisely voted to keep the civil service in place.
Why the hell did he want that to change. The civil service protects officers/firefighters from being at will employees. Thus they can not be fired on a whim of the mayor or anyone with authority. They are guaranteed a civil service hearing where evidence is presented at a determination hearing for continued employment. Basically it means that the mayor can not fire a police officer for giving a FOM a ticket or something like that.
A frightening thought for the civil service employees is that if Godfrey is re-elected (God forbid) and his other "friends" are elected as well, then the CC could change the civil service protection easily leaving the employees with no protection.
Anyway there are many employees too afraid of repercussions for speaking out against the mayor. I can believe that there are businesses that are afraid of repercussions as well.
Stop picking on Mayor Godfrey. Your all just so mean!
He's a Republican
He goes to my church.
He voted for George Bush'S
He has never slapped his wife.
Stop it.
Britney Honey,
He's still an evil little Bastard.
britney spears, You said, "Your all just so mean! He's a Republican, He goes to my church.
He voted for George Bush'S,
He has never slapped his wife."
I have to wonder if the arguments you give were given "tongue-in-cheek," because they are about as good as your spelling.
BTW you are calling the wrong people "mean." They don't call women into their office or peresonally attack them during a Council meeting, and yell at them, hammer them saying degrading things to them and intimidating them until they're in tears as Godfrey does. Another misuse of his power and position.
Rudi:
Rumors, suspicions, speculations swirl around constantly on the web. Some, as Dan noted, turn out to be true, some turn out to be false, and some we never learn whether they are true or not. Naturally, everyone --- myself included --- treats some of the rumors/allegations as more likely to be true than others. The problem is, all of us --- myself included --- tend to treat rumors that accord with our own views or interests as being more probable than rumors that don't.
When somebody is willing to stand up, to go on the record, to remove the claims from the real of "somebody told me this, but I can't say who it was" to the realm of "Mr. John Doe, the owner of Universal Widget Emporium on 25th Street today accused Ms. Jane Doe of the city's Business Inspections office of promising fast service on a licensing inspection in return for his placing a "Godfrey for Mayor" sign in his store window," then the matter becomes a substantive matter. But somebody... and in this case, several and then many somebodies... have to be willing to stand up and go on the record. So far, no one has.
We have here in the US a long history of examples of things that "everybody knows" turning out in the end to be not so at all. Here we have John [and you] insisting that "everybody knows" the Mayor is doing this kind of thing, . When some people are willing to stand up on the record we will know Not until then.
Let me put the point a little differently: I think in such disputes it's as important to apply the same standards to rumors and anonymous allegations that I would find it politically useful to be true that I absolutely insist on applying to rumors and anonymous allegations that I would find politically inconvenient to be true. Same standard for both. All the time. Every time.
On Mr. Geiger's letter in the SE this morning:
He just can't help mis-stating things, can he? He alleges in his letter that Ms. Van Hooser said "she didn't wish to debate Mayor Godfrey." Since Ms. Van Hooser has appeared at candidate forums with the Mayor during the primary campaign, and since she has accepted an invitation to debate the Mayor elsewhere, Mr. Geiger's claim seems --- to put it as charitably as possible --- an exaggeration.
Ms. Van Hooser did decline to take part in a debate arranged by the Ogden Weber Godfrey Cheerleading Squad [aka the leadership of the Ogden Weber Chamber of Commerce] on grounds that those inviting her were biased in favor of the Mayor's re-election. Permit me to note that Mr. Dave Hardman [President and CEO of the Chamber] chose to demonstrate his and his organization's lack of bias by writing an op-ed piece for the Standard Examiner attacking Ms. Van Hooser. 'Nuff said about that, I think.
But I don't want to discourage Mr. Geiger [who is the head of whatever is left of Lift Ogden these days] from writing letters to the editor, however transparently biased or illogical they may be. Writing letters takes time, and I figure the more he writes, the less chance we will have of reading about Mr. Geiger in yet another police report about lawn sign shenanigans. So write away, Mr. Geiger. If it keeps you off the streets at night between now and election day, I'm all for it.
This allegation that Godfrey people are telling business people to put his signs in their windows, and telling city employees to put signs in their yards, or else things might happen to them, would be extortion, if true.
It’s a big if. Now one supposes it can be done so subtly that no one could prove it, and this would be the reason why people would not come forward. If you need some silly city inspection or permit, you are already bending the knee to the city’s bureaucratic blob. So if you put a sign in your window, what’s the big deal?
If these allegations are true, then these people need to recognize that job one is to get Godfrey gone. They should organize a group and go public. Hearsay, like the comments posted here, mean nothing. Anybody can accuse anybody of anything. But if you have a group, joining ranks and saying the same thing, it has impact, and it offers support to the group members. After all, even if Godfrey is re-elected, he would be far less likely to go after members of a group, than he would be to go after isolated individuals.
This sort of extortion was also alleged when Salt Lake Mayor Deedee Corradini started getting money coming in to pay off her court-mandated restitution that she had to pay to people she’d conned back when she was a “business woman”. The fraud she committed in her “business” days was beyond doubt, but the claimed mayoral extortion, while believable, was never conclusively proven.
If there is extortion going on in Ogden City, then those affected should form a group and go public. In one case, they help get rid of Godfrey. In the other, if he is re-elected, they will have their group to protect themselves from him.
Without that, all these charges are just so much hot air in the wind.
IF THESE ALLEGATIONS ARE TRUE, THE THOSE INVOLVED SHOULD FORM A GROUP AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.
People on the Blog can talk big about what Ogden residents should do.
I wonder if they have ever lived under the threat of losing their job if they go public or of not being able to get a building permit in Ogden if they criticize the system publicly.
Or of having their own campaign sign disappear late at night.
If they do get fed up enough to decide to go to court they have the problem not only of having to pay an attorney $200.00 an hour but they can't even find an attorney to take the case.
Ogden City hires outside attorneys quite frequently. Any law firm that has taken an Ogden case or hopes to in the future as a conflict of interest and won't touch a private citizen's complaint.
After trying to find an attorney to take a case against Ogden I know what we are all up against.
Two names I was given that will take on Ogden are Cal Curtis in Salt Lake 534-4430 and Grant Sumsion in Orem 801-426-6888.
So you people that make your Blog comments neeed to cool it until you have tried to fight the Godfrey system.
Quit being an armchair expert.
Experienced,
You comments about lawyers are true, but irrelevant.
If the concerns are true, then they are crimes. You don't need to hire anybody to prosecute extortion.
All you need is a bunch of your friends to testify under oath that what you say is true.
If what you say it true, and you are not willing to work to bring the people to justice, then you're not good for much, are you?
Listen to me. I've taken people down before. But to do it, you have to show some brass.
On the other hand, for all we know you're just making it all up.
Read the front page of section 1E in the Standard today. I am for any organization that wants to better our community or contribute to the betterment of all people, but give me a break on this story line and your organizations intentions with this article. Have a heart is probably a great program but the story today wasn’t really about the program, it was a promotional for Godfrey. I could find very little about the specific location where the program is being developed or for that matter, much information about the program that you could really sink your teeth into.
What I did see was pictures of Godfrey at the controls of a piece of heavy equipment (being instructed by someone that actually knows how to operate the equipment) and what I did read was a huge promotional piece for Godfrey (including his own comments that took up about a quarter of the article). He referred to reducing crime 70% in the area where the project was being developed (where is that?) and how glad he was for the organization that was helping to make this area a better place to live.
Hey NWHBA, if you are truly doing this project for the people why don’t you talk a little about the project and the people that you intend to help? Charity means so much more when its done out of compassion rather than being done for image. That’s a Paris Hilton stunt. Don’t wrap your organization around this type of program unless you are sincere in your intentions. What you projected today certainly did not do that.
danny -
Your inexperience is showing. How do you define a crime?
Have you ever tried to prosecute a Civil Law violation in Ogden? That is the legal term for what most of Godfrey's abuse comes under.
Have you ever gone to the County Attorney Mark de Caria with a complaint about a Godfrey Civil Law violation in Ogden? Try that for starters and you will get educated real fast.
The rule for de Caria and also for the Grand Jury is that they won't touch a complaint until a citizen can prove that a felony has been committed. Murder comes under a felony.
The bottom line is that what we experience from Ogden City government almost always comes under Civil Law and the only recourse is to hire a private attorney to go before a judge to plead our case.
My previous point being that most private citizens cannot financially afford to do that.
Please don't give advice until you personally have travelled down the legal path of trying to stop Godfrey and his abuse.
Show some of your brass that your are bragging about.
If you really can prove that a felony has occurred then try going before the Grand Jury Panel yourself on October 11th when the Panel will be in Ogden at the District Court.
Don't be telling the rest of us what to do about Godfrey if you haven't tried the process yourself.
Maybe my mother is right - she thinks most Blogs are just for blowhards. You are making me begin to look at Blogs from her perspective.
Concerned:
The question I'd have to ask, since this appears in the Classified Ads section of the paper, is this: Did NWHBA pay for the space? Is this a paid notice/ad? If so, they can say what they please, and put whatever pictures they want in that space.
The problem is, I can't tell for certain if this is a paid ad or not. I'm not sure what "submitted by" means here. It looks like an article. If it is not, if it is a paid ad [in which case, again, those who paid for it can say what they please in it, and no complaint from me], then the SE should not permit it to run without letting readers know, clearly, that it is an ad and not s story by the paper's staff.
Or was it a story.
Thanks for the heads up, Concerned. I don't usually read the classifieds unless I'm looking for something specific in them. I missed this when I read the paper this AM.
Although we do appreciate the civics lesson, Curm, we don't think you've quite put your finger on the problem.
What we're dealing with is hearsay testimony. What John has offered us is "second hand information." Taken by itself, outside the context of other information that's known to us, this information might be considered by some to be useless. The "hearsay problem" of course is the objection indirectly raised by gentle reader "unbelievable," above, and is the core of the objection you raise in your latest comment.
We believe the question of how to weigh hearsay evidence (or whether to weigh it at all) is a question that must be resolved by each individual himself. And in our own case we've decided to accord this piece of evidence at least some weight. Not only is it consistent with other stories we've heard privately, but directly, from other Emerald City citizens in the past, it's consistent with direct testimony we've featured in the past on this blog.
In our own case, we've decided to consider John's information in the full context of other information that is known to us, and to accord it some weight, if only as corroboration of a pattern of zoning and permitting authority abuse which we believe to be fairly common. No, we don't consider John's information to be the centerpiece of the "prosecution's case;" but neither do we consider this information to be entirely useless to our personal analysis.
While many of our readers will no doubt adhere to a standard demanding absolute proof; we do not choose to do that.
For our own purposes we'll readily disclose that we willingly choose to apply common sense (and human intuition,) and to examine any proffered evidence in the context of the overall fact scenario, in the manner of ordinary citizens in the weeks preceding a general election.
danny:
It is not your inexperience that is showing - it is much more serious and could become dangerous for those around you -
you suffer from naivete.
Danny and Experienced:
You're both right. "Experienced" is right that [presuming the allegations are true], coming forward could be seriously damaging to someone's business, at the least, and we ought to be not eager to encourage others to put themselves at risk. "Danny" is right that, however, until someone comes forward despite the risk [presuming the allegations are true], nothing will happen by way of ending the problem.
Rudi:
You suggest in your latest that I'm holding to a standard demanding "absolute proof." Not really. I'm saying that unless and until someone goes on the record, we don't even have a credible allegation to consider. Once one is made on the record by someone who will put his or name to it, then we can reasonably start discussing whether the evidence sustains the allegation. But we can't even fairly begin that when no one has gone on the record. Can't be a credible allegation in my book until that at least happens.
And that is a long long way from demanding absolute proof before taking an allegation seriously.
Given B Geiger's return to the SE's letters page and his continued support of the Mayor, I thought a little trip down memory lane might be necessary for Bobby to re-think his continued support of the man who has decided to stop Ogden's progress in its tracks.
“I tell the mayor, if we put that gondola in, he can shut down his advertising department because the ski industry will do the advertising for him,” Geiger says. “This is a ski town. This is a town that will unite if given a vision.”
"More is happening and coming every day. I wish I were at liberty to tell everyone. The companies in question want to be discrete, but they came this week because the Rec Center provided sufficient proof that the Gondola and other components are going to be a reality."
"Watch for more Ski companies to come. Hollywood has been visiting with WSU….Why? because of all of these projects….watch for results there….they’ve been working with Chris Peterson."
"The Gondola is the key to bringing the Ski Industry to THE HUB."
"The fact is, this Vision is working and should be supported with fervor."
Who knew that the Mayor himself would get behind the people of Ogden and stop supporting this VISION?
curmudgeon -
You are becoming tireless.
Quit giving us lectures and do something constructive yourself by filing your own blankety-blank lawsuit.
curmudgeon -
For your information there are several lawsuits that are in the works or have been filed by people who have put their money where they mouth is by shelling out bucks for attorneys to do their stuff.
Please lay off the lecturing or I am gonna find another spot to peruse. You are really turning us off.
big jim and had' nuff:
Big Jim: You said I am becoming "tireless." I hope so. I'm hoping to continue to be tireless into November working to return Mt. Godfrey to the private sector. May succeed, may not. But I'll get my best tireless work [I hope] until election day.
You suggest I "do something constructive by filing you own blankety-blank lawsuit." That would be difficult since I have no grounds that I know of on which to sue anyone. I haven't been threatened if I don't put up a Godfrey sign. [Besides, it wouldn't look good next to the Van Hooser sign I have up now.] Who would I bring suit against and for what?
If people have filed suits [you don't say who, or against who, or for what], fine. They'll play out in court as they should. That was their choice. I haven't criticized anyone for doing that.
Had'nuff: You request that I "lay off lecturing." I don't think I have been lecturing, though I have been disagreeing with some things that have been posted, just as I'm disagreeing with your post now. But then, that's pretty much what blogs are for, seems to me: triggering discussions. Sorry you find that dull. My definition of a dull blog is one on which everyone sits around agreeing with each other all the time --- a sort of digital Lift Ogden meeting. Now that would be really boring.
Experienced and Dr. Thomas,
Rudi mentions the Mike Moyal case, where Mr. Moyal courageously makes his allegations for all to see. And from what I understand, he got results.
What have you done? Criminey! You say blogs are hot air? What are you bringing, bro?
We got this thing called a presumption of innocence. Sure, lots of folks are pissed at the mayor. If that's all you got, say so. If you got more, bring it. If you don't bring it, I say maybe it's because you ain't got nuthin' to bring.
You people say you've got all this proof and lawsuits and so on. You sound like Chris Peterson and his experience and money and bullcrap. Maybe you and he could do a remake of the Invisible Man.
Dear Geigers:
You are a bunch of Geigers. Geiger, Geiger, Geiger, Geiger...
Sad news about the mayor's father's death yesterday.
Very difficult to lose one's parent. He was a young man too...not even 70.
He seemed to have an open relationship with his constituents.
A Godfrey with an open relationship with his constituents! Now there is one for the record books!!
Don't want to speak bad about the departed, but this guy sure raised a piece of shit for a son!!!
I hope he's got a good excuse for old Saint Pete.
b geigerian:
I'm off colored at times and admit it.
But your out of line!
Godfrey's dad deserves better than that. He was a good man.
BG
I have not been here long enough to have known the Mayor's father as a public officeholder. But it doesn't matter. The family has suffered an unexpected and untimely death. This is not a topic for, nor should it be the occasion for, partisan sniping.
In regards to this matter of showing respect for those that have just suffered a loss, I have a recent Godfrey story.
Seems Godfrey and his wife were out campaigning here a couple of weeks ago and come to a house that had a large gathering. In side was a family that had just come from the funeral of a family member that had unexpectedly passed away and left everyone in shock.
Godfrey did not know what was going on when he knocked on the door. He introduced himself and his wife and then asked to talk to the person at the door in an effort to garner support for his re-election.
It was at this time that he was informed that it wasn't a good time as the family was gathered after just returning from a family funeral. This didn't stop Godfrey as he asked that since there was a large gathering that he would like to address the entire room with his re-election rhetoric. The person at the door couldn't believe what he was asking and refused.
At which point he tried to press the issue that he needed to share his political views of the city with the entire family.
At this time apparently one of the family members, a rather large man came to the door and told Godfrey where he could stick it and that if he didn't leave immediately the man was going to kick his ass.
This story was recently told to me by a new hire who was the person that initially answered the door.
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