We would like to direct our readers' attention this morning to a memo we received earlier this week from Ogden City council communications specialist Chad Phares, concerning the Mt. Ogden community plan:
OGDEN, UTAH (Sept. 18, 2007) — In an effort to encourage community involvement, the Ogden City Council will discuss the proposed Mt. Ogden Community Plan at Mt. Ogden Middle School at 6 p.m. during the Tuesday, Sept. 25 Ogden City Council meeting.Please be sure to mark your calenders, gentle readers. We believe this to be a "must attend" event.
After the plan has been presented, those who wish to provide input to the Council will be given the opportunity to do so. Likewise, comment cards will be made available for those who wish to leave written comments. These comments will be consolidated and delivered to the Council.
The proposed community plan contains a vision of the community and objectives for implementing this vision. Many of the recommendations in the plan came from Mt. Ogden residents who served on community plan steering committees.
Because Council members consider it important to take the time to carefully consider both the input they receive from residents and business owners as well as the Planning Commission’s recommendations, the Council will not make a decision regarding the plan during this meeting.
The Council received the community plan from the Planning Commission on May 29, 2007. Since this time, the Council has met with planning officials multiple times to discuss the contents of the plan.
A copy of the plan may be obtained by clicking on the “Proposed Mt. Ogden Community Plan” link on the City’s home page .
Mt. Ogden Middle School is located at 3260 Harrison Boulevard. The meeting will be held in the school’s auditorium.
If you would like to know more information about this topic, please call Ogden City Council Communications Specialist Chad Phares at (801) 629-8629 or e-mail at
chadphares@ci.ogden.ut.us.
Feel free to pick up on this topic, or consider this a weekend kickoff open thread.
67 comments:
I hope everyone will attend the Mt. Ogden Community Plan presentation next Tuesday. Even if you don't live in the area, this plan will impact Ogden more than any other community plan because the various entities involved in the process (not the citizen committees) have tried to mold zoning policy into it to accommodate what the administration wants for the City. The Council has carefully studied and spent hours discussing the plan in an effort to ensure that the residents' intentions are represented.
Anyone who attended the work session of the City Council last night wonders if they attended the same meeting that Scott Schwebke reported about this morning. He has become the sub-standard “Sub-Standard Examiner” reporter where what happened is not reported, but the reporter makes up something totally different! I hope everyone realizes that the article they read this morning is a rehash of yesterday’s story using different words and a few different quotes from UTA.
All Council members were quite indignant at the Mayor’s obvious latest slap in the face as they had met with him in a work session the evening of August 16th to attempt to come to an agreement on a study to be conducted for a mass transportation corridor. That meeting seemed to end on a friendly note with Godfrey volunteering to have a proposed corridor developed by some of his staff members by the end of September. Two weeks later he cons UTA into signing an agreement to spend $247,000. on a gondola study! As Jeske pointed out last night, both the Mayor and UTA had betrayed the Council. In the emails that Dan Schroeder had obtained through a GRAMA request UTA had stipulated that they would do nothing with the $247,000. (an exchange for the $247,000. Federal transportation money that was sent to UTA and used to purchase a bus to service Ogden) until the Council and Mayor could agree on how that money was to be spent.
The Council spent almost an hour last night discussing this latest insult by the Mayor – NONE OF WHICH WAS REPORTED BY SCHWEBKE!! Jeske told the other Council members that she did not know what they intended to do, but she had drafted a letter of complaint to State Legislative Representatives and Senators that she knew and was requesting that legislation be adopted that made UTA accountable for the expenditure of taxpayer funds and for their response to the different entities with which they work. She told me that it didn’t matter whether they reported to the Legislature, the Attorney General’s office or the Governor’s office, but they MUST be held accountable for properly disbursing taxpayer monies.
She said that the Council had tried to build a bridge with the administration in the August 16th meeting, but Godfrey had deliberately burned that bridge demonstrating that he did NOT desire to work with the Council! Councilman Stephens said that he agreed with Dorrene and was very disappointed in the Mayor’s and UTA’s action because of the importance of determining a mass transportation mode and corridor for Ogden. Jeske told me later that for someone who professed to have “the highest ethics of anyone in the room” [a comment that he made last year during a Council meeting when his method of negotiating was questioned by both the firefighters and police] that she wanted to know where his ethics were in August because she could see no evidence of his ethics or integrity in his dealings. She indicated that it will be difficult to even give him the benefit of a doubt in future transactions because his credibility is gone. She said that the residents and voters of Ogden need to know this about Godfrey before they vote in November. Maybe that is why Schwebke did not report what actually happened at the work meeting.
It looks like if you want the news, you will have to attend the meetings because you can’t depend on Scott Schwebke to report it!
Tell it Like It Is:
Your post summarizes mostly Councilwoman Jeske's comments. What did the other Council members have to say? How were her remarks received? Were other members angered by the Mayor's latest exercise in duplicity? Were there other views expressed?
Councilman Safsten said, according to Schwebke's piece, that perhaps the money could be used to finance an "alternatives analysis."
That was a very interesting comment. An "alternatives analysis" is the next step necessary to have any transit development done over the downtown to WSU/McKay Dee corridor --- the route that the consultants recommended as the transit corridor that should be Ogden's first priority, and over which the consultants recommended a street car line or bus rapid transit line. The same corridor that is now the ONLY transit project in the Priority One list established by UTA and UDOT and WACOG. The same corridor the Mayor is trying to have deleted as a priority in order to protect the presumed route of his gondola obsession.
The Council has been trying to proceed with the alternatives analysis for sometime [against the mayor's resistance]. NO federal funds can be applied for that transit route for any project without having done the alternatives analysis first, and the an environmental impact analysis following. If Councilman Safsten is calling for the federal grant money administered by UTA to be used to fund the necessary "alternatives analysis" the Council has been trying to arrange for some time, it marks a significant statement on his part. I hope that is what it means. Using those fed funds for the downtown to WSU/McKay Dee alternatives analysis would be a very wise use of them for Ogden City.
The statement in the article is a little vague, with Safsten calling for an "alternatives analysis of mass transit options" for Ogden. If he meant by that that Ogden should shell out for yet another study of the gondola as a mass transit option, or that Ogden should pay for a yet more studies to try to delist the downtown to WSU/McKay Dee transit corridor [to protect the gondola will-o'-the-wisp's mythical route], it seems not a particularly good idea.
There has already been a public funded study of the possible priority transit corridors in Ogden. The problem is, from the Mayor's POV, that the experts studying the matter concluded that (a) the transit corridor most in need of upgrading, and being made a priority is the downtown to WSU/McKay Dee corridor (b) that the transit modes best suited over that corridor to serve Ogden's needs in the future are [in this order] streetcar or bus rapid transit (c)that the proposed gondola over that route is not a viable mass transit option for Ogden.
There is no need to re-invent the wheel yet again. If Council man Safsten was calling for the "alternatives analysis" that is still pending, and necessary to apply for fed funds for the downtown/WSU corridor, he would be advocating a very wise use of the money.
Rudi
After your mighty build up yesterday of the pending expose by Schwepke about this UTA bull shit, I was sorely disappointed at the tepid bowl of pablum he served up today. Like Peggy Lee sang: "is that all there is?"
Did I drool all night in anticipation of some real red meat from Schwepke for nothing? Yep, I sure did.
Like the prior post said, "Schwepke proves once again that he is the Sub Standard's sub standard reporter.
Curmudgeon,
You ask: “Your post summarizes mostly Councilwoman Jeske's comments. What did the other Council members have to say? How were her remarks received? Were other members angered by the Mayor's latest exercise in duplicity? Were there other views expressed?
In my post I stated: “All Council members were quite indignant at the Mayor’s obvious latest slap in the face.” Comments by the other council members were along the same lines as Ms. Jeske’s. ALL the Council members seemed genuinely troubled by the Mayor’s actions, except Councilman Brandon Stephenson who had asked to be excused from the meeting and wasn’t present. Councilman Stephens expressed concern that a golden opportunity to jointly and unitedly address the transportation needs of Ogden was lost. When Councilman Safsten stated that he hoped that the funds that Godfrey had marked to be used for a gondola study, be used to study ALL modes of mass transit for Ogden, Mr. Cook informed the Council that those funds would not be coming to Ogden, therefore, the Council would have no say in how those funds would be used because of the way the contract was set up. He said that the Mayor would determine what those funds would be used for. Talk about usurping authority – NOW THE MAYOR IS ASSUMING LEGISLATIVE AUTHORITY!! The Council should yell, “FOUL!!” But I’m sure with the “legal” advice they receive from Gary Williams, as well as Bill Cook’s, will tell them that they can do nothing. My advice to the Council is “OBTAIN YOUR OWN INDEPENDENT LEGAL COUNSEL!” Don’t let Bill Cook obtain someone from the Utah League of Cities and Towns! There are brilliant attorneys in Salt Lake City who are well versed in city government and who cannot be influenced by the devious Godfrey that could be hired to represent the Council.
I urge the Council to show some backbone – reclaim your rightful duties as the legislative body of Ogden!!
Tell it:
Thanks for the added detail. Interesting that your take on the Council's reading of the contract flatly contradicts what UTA and Godfrey administration flacks [aka Mr. Patterson] said about how it will all work in the SE story.
It's been fairly evident for some years now that Mayor Godfrey's governing "style" (politely so called) --- which includes equal elements of "my way or the highway and "bull in a china shop" --- has made it difficult, if not impossible on many occasions for the Council, even when it sought to, to cooperate with him for the common good of Ogden City. The now infamous Bootjack affair is but one example, with the administration flat refusing to tell the council, when it was asked, who it wanted to sell the Bootjack property to. That was so egregious a snub, even the normally Godfrey-sock-puppet Stephenson voted to rein in the Mayor's authority to make sure nothing like that happened again.
The Mayor's duplicity involving the fedgrant --- his twistings and turnings to prevent the council from finding out what he was doing, that he had contracted [without opening the contract for bids] to have yet another gondola study done, and his [sadly successful] attempt to get UTA to cooperate in his machinations, and now his latest duplicity that has the Council angered --- make it painfully clear that his continuing as mayor will not be in Ogden's best interests. The only way he will be able to co-exist peacefully with the Council is if a majority of its members are docile bobble-heads like Stephenson, programed to say "Yes, Mayor" to whatever Godfrey proposes, without examining or questioning anything.
If we get again, as we have now, a Council that insists on asking questions and having them answered before voting for administration proposals, we can look forward to four more years, under Godfrey, of duplicity, and bad relations between the Council and the Mayor... to the continuing detriment of Ogden City.
And among the questions Ms. Jeske might reasonable ask of Mr. Inglish and UTA is why, if this contract was signed on 29 August, UTA did not announce the signing then, but sat on it until after the primary election in which the Mayor was a candidate. Was there some agreement between Inglish and Godfrey to keep it all under wraps until after the primary election? And if there was, does Mr. Inglish consider withholding news of UTA contract signings from the public for the purpose of aiding the elections of a particular Mayor to be a proper function of his office?
What the hell is going on at UTA these days?
Press RElease from City Council:
Ogden City Council Press Release
Contact: Chad Phares
For immediate release
(801) 629-8629
Ogden City Council not involved in gondola contract
OGDEN, UTAH (Sept. 21, 2007) — Despite recent reports that “Ogden City”
has signed an agreement with the Utah Transit Authority (UTA) to perform a $247,500
gondola study, members of the Ogden City Council desire for residents to know that the
Council was excluded from involvement in this contract.
Because the Council understands the gondola project is a sensitive topic for the
community, Council members continue to express their desire for an open, public
process.
The Council requested that UTA utilize an interlocal agreement, which would
have involved the Council. However, the aforementioned contract was signed instead,
thus eliminating the Council’s involvement in this part of the process.
Despite this, UTA has committed to the Council that no actual funds will be spent
on the gondola study until the developer of the project comes forward with a formal
proposal. UTA has also committed to give the Council the opportunity to comment
before any additional funding commitments are made.
As reported in the Standard-Examiner after an Aug. 16 joint work session, Mayor
Matthew Godfrey and the Council agreed there should be a joint plan supported by both
the Mayor as well as the Council. During this meeting, the Mayor committed to cooperate
with the Council in developing a mass transit corridor priority plan.
(MORE)
Page 2
The Mayor indicated the Council would receive this report by the end of
September. This plan could then be communicated to other stakeholders such as UTA,
Wasatch Front Regional Council, Weber State University and others.
The Council remains committed to an alternatives analysis for the downtown
Ogden to Weber State University corridor. “We had hoped that partial funding for this
expanded corridor study would have come from the $247,500 from UTA,” Council Chair
Jesse Garcia said.
In the meantime, the Council is continuing its “Transportation Horizons” process,
which involves the gathering and sharing of important information relevant to Ogden’s
transportation needs and opportunities.
###
If you would like to know more information about this topic, please call Ogden
City Council Communications Specialist Chad Phares at (801) 629-8629 or e-mail at
From the Council's press release:
UTA has also committed to give the Council the opportunity to comment before any additional funding commitments are made.
I'd merely like to note that UTA's promising to "give the Council the opportunity to comment" does not promise the Council any say at all in how the money is spent. It only promises the Council will have a chance to "comment," not to approve or concur with the spending. This is about as valuable as the citizens' right to comment to the council for three minutes at Council meetings on public matters. The right to comment conveys exactly zero right to have those comments acted upon.
It is time for our state legislators... it is long past time... to get involved. Is this how Mr. Greiner and Ms. Shurtlif think UTA should be handling public funds? Is this how Rep. Bishop and Sens. Bennett and Hatch think federal funds should be handled by UTA? Somebody Mr. Inglish might actually have to listen to should start asking some serious questions.
Given UTA's performance in this Godfrey/Gondola/Grants mess, seems to me Ogden voters may want to say, loudly, by their votes on the so-called Transportation Tax referendum in November: "Hell no! Not until UTA cleans up its act, and not until we get some guarantees... like Salt Lake City voters got when they voted "yes" to a new transportation tax... about exactly how the money will be used. Promising us only 'opportunities to comment' such as UTA has promised the Council are not good enough. Not by a long shot."
I don't know if this is on topic or not, but I want WCF readers to know I have an opportunity to present legitimate and serious questions at an upcoming mayoral candidate debate, being organized by Student Economic Association (of which I am a member) and Pi Sigma Alpha (poli-sci honor society) for Oct 12. I would like to participate and I would like to field any question or concerns you gentle readers of WCF might have.
Just a side note, I will not let Mr. Godfrey get away with his pat answer "talk to me after the meeting in private" - that will be tagged as a no response, & presented to Ms. Van Hooser.
Only serious, reasonable & important questions please.
(Rudi, you might want to make this a separate blog front, and that's okay - The Lovely Jennifer)
Dan S., Sharon, Curm, et al: please feel free to chime in, i don't give a rat's tuchis what party anyone belongs to, the issues that concern the people of Oz are non-partisan after all.
Jen
How about asking the little rat bastard the following: "If the truth were better, would you still lie?"
The Lovely Jennifer...
Here is a question.
If some one came up and slap the mayor's wife would he just stand there?
Jen, you might want to ask both candidates if they think a gondola connecting Weber State to a ski resort in Malan's Basin will seriously benefit the University?
Just Watch......If someone slapped the mayor's wife...he'd protest, "Hey! That's my job!"
"UTA has committed to the Council that no actual funds will be spent
on the gondola study until the developer of the project comes forward with a formal
proposal."
Am I the only one who wonders whether a pie-in-the-sky proposal from Chris Peterson is in the offing for an October Surprise?
I hope the Council is finally convinced that they can trust NO one in this lousy administration.
Harmer, Patterson, Arrington, Williams (and, Cook too often), Montgomery are all toadies for Godfrey.
Godfrey is a liar and a sneak. Look up the definitions in your dictionary. Who can trust anything a liar and sneak says or does?
Who can trust his "A Team"???
"October Surprise"...isn't that a dish made with rattlesnake?
Does the A in "A Team" stand for Amoral?
Doesn't the A in "A Team" stand for Amoral?
Nope, the "A" stands for Arrogant.
Lionel & Just Watch: I did say serious questions, after all this is a debate sponsored by the good people of WSU.
Go Wildcats: Another way to put your question might be: If there were (1)enough information & (2)it seemed an impartial study had concluded a gondola would benefit the university (and of course, for what reasons) & (3) if it would be affordable, given a full disclosure of the city's budget for such expenditures, would you put it to good people of Ogden for a vote?
We already know what Mr. Godfrey "thinks" about the gondola. During a debate, we would certainly want both candidates to have the opportunity to back up their responses with good reasoning, not just hemming & hawing & "I've already told you a thousand times what I think."
Thank you.
All you property owners that are good and pissed off about your taxes going through the roof ought to read about our own Utah boy Howard Jarvis that went to California and ultimately pushed through their now famous Proposition 13.
The name of the book is "Howard Jarvis I'm mad as hell". It is long out of print, but can be found at amazon and possibly some used book stores like Wellers in Salt Lake. A good read and well worth the time to read it and the trouble to find it.
The only way these arrogant bastards that have a strangle hold on Utah, and who are responsible for all of this irresponsible taxation and spending, will give us a break is if we take their power of taxation away by a referendum.
Power to the People.
OzBoy,
I was living in CA then and worked long hours gathering signatures on petitions for Prop 13!
LJ:
Composing good non-aggressive questions [i.e. questions that sound, to an observer who has no dog in the fight, fair, substantive and not loaded] that deal with core matters in a way that makes them difficult to dodge is a hard thing to do. As I suspect you are finding out. Doing all that and coming up as well with a question that the candidates have not heard before, do not expect [and so have not prepped a canned answer for] is harder still.
If you do find some, LJ, don't post them here, for it's dollars to donuts if you do find a few such unexpected questions and post them, advocates of either of the two candidates will make sure they get to their campaign staffs... which means they won't be unexpected and un-prepped when you ask them.
Really good questions for candidates are very hard to devise. Hope it goes well.
Crum:
People like you who bark but don't work. Why don't you run for party leadership? Why don't you call and talk to the party leadership? Why don't you run for public office?
We need good leaders like you!
Another Gang related murder in Ogden last night. There goes the mayor's low crime rate.
Thank you Curm, for that bit of advice. I hadn't thought of it. Of course they are going to be looking at this forum and finding out any questions we come up with.
Maybe they could be emailed to the blog-meister & he could forward them to me.
Any suggestions, Rudi?
Kudos to Susie for not playing into the stained hands of the Chamber of Commerce!
You did the right thing by not joining another Godfrey dog and pony show!
IF Neil Hansen was still in the race, He would have chewed up the little guy in one bit and spot him out all over dave hardman. Too bad that is not going to happen.
Who can trust Sharon, Littrell, and that gang? If they were running things we'd still have a vacant hole on 24th & Washington, there would be little or no economic prosperity in town, and the City would be run by someone who doesn't know anything about running a city (Block Grants, funding, economic development, et al).
And "Kudos" for Van Hooser dodging a debate? Really. All that's going to do is cost her a slew of votes. All debates have ground rules and it seems this Forum miraculously knows what they are, yet they probably aren't on the Chamber's Debate Committee that makes those rules. Speculation and assumption highlighted by NEGATIVES!
Sad.
If she's smart she won't debate Godfrey at all. She's come out of the primary as the top anti godfrey candidate, in a circumstance where Godfrey barely pulled 40%. She should sit tight, distribute her message by literature and the media,and deny Godfrey any opportunity to get back into the race.
Voter (AKA GeigerGodfreyDupe)
Pity the self inflicted blind who refuse to see, the willing deaf who refuse to hear, and the stupid like you who refuse to think.
If it were not for a bunch of idiot empire building politicians we would still have two blocks of wonderful 1800's buildings where there is now still a mud hole and a soon to be bust out penny arcade.
Your lack of knowledge about real economic prosperity is truly breathtaking. You, your children, your grandchildren and your great grandchildren will be burdened into the long distant future in digging out of this insane hole we have all been put into by the incompetent group surrounding Godfrey.
Tell us genius, do you really think that the arcade that we are invested $20, or $30 or $40 million in is really a successful venture? Have your really gone down there and looked at it on a Wed night? It is only busy about 18 hours a week at most! From all appearances it is a complete bust. And incompetents like you call that economic prosperity?
Fairly sound "political" advice for Suzy; but some of us might want to know WHAT she knows, besides the fact that she's being advised to play a little dodge-ball in order not to "let Godfrey back in the race." After all, Al, there's a bit more to running the City than that. Substance, knowledge, where to go to get this and who to see to get that, etc.
Just a thought.
And then there's "bernanke." What caught my eye was you don't even know the amount of bonding (what you call "invested") that went into the Junction (yeah, the Junction, not just the Rec Center). You say $20, 30, 40 million and that "it is a complete bust." Proof? Seen the books? Source? Or are you just some guy who thinks anyone who has a conflicting opinion is a Geiger?
I think that's it. Your thinking must be shallow to the point that you have everything all wrapped up in a neat little package that suits you and your opinion, but is truely void of the facts.
Don't ya just love these bloggers?
are these the same dopes who sell mittens? thank you for bringing prosperity and visions to our city.
Voter,
You are the one who is sad and bad news! There are many of us who do not agree with your assessment of "Sharon, Littrell and that bunch." Apparently you are not in favor of doing one's "due diligence," which is a requirement for most successful companies, and the reason that they are successful. Of course, there are exceptions, and those companies have incredible luck. You jump to conclusions without considering all the options and alternatives. If Sharon and etal, were responsible for downtown, there probably wouldn't have been a hole in the first place (it was wasteful to tear down that beautiful huge building). The Junction may have had businesses downtown a lot sooner than we did. As you may recall, the original developer cited the inability to work with Mayor Godfrey as the reason for pulling out of Ogden.
As for the debates, there will be more opportunities where the field will be impartial and more fair. YOUR PREJUDICE IS SHOWING!
KUDOS, Susie! Be your own person, don't let the "vocal minority" push you into something that your better judgment rejects!
Voter's post is the "NEGATIVE" aspect of this issue.
Voter:
On debates: Were I Ms. Hooser's campaign manager [I am not], I'd have advised her not to do the Chamber debate for the same reason the Democratic presidential candidates refused to appear on Faux News Channel's debate: not a level playing field, and the referees would be working for the other side. And she has support from the business community, including from members of the Chamber. [Whether the Chamber leadership accurately reflects the views of members on matters like the gondolas is not as settled a question as you seem to think. Mr. Hardman, the Chamber head, for example, led the group over the cliff on the never-actually-appearing "Peterson Proposal", endorsing sale of the golf course and the park benchlands to Peterson for a real estate development... a project the Mayor now concedes had no chance of working from the start. Rumor has it Mr. Hardman embarrassed Chamber members by leading them to endorse, blindly and without a scintilla of research first, a project that had no chance of succeeding. Business leaders who like to tout their steely eyed practicality and where-the-rubber-meets-the-road good business judgment, do NOT like to be embarrassed like that.] Appearing at a debate run by the Chamber leadership, by the Chamber's Hardmans, would not have been wise of her, particularly since Mr. Hardman is scrambling to restore his and the Chamber leadership's credibility after the Peterson Proposal park sale fiasco.
I also notice she agreed to a debate at a neutral venue with neutral producers at WSU.
I think it would be a mistake for Ms. Van Hooser to decline all debate invitations, and I'm glad to see she has not done so. We know what Godfrey is [arrogant, duplicitous, unethical and running the city into a mountain of debt while ignoring crime and other matters so he can spend full time promoting his cronies' real estate speculations and pipe dream gondolas]. We know Susan Van Hooser does not represent more of that.
But Ms. Van Hooser is the newcomer on the scene... much as Godfrey was when he ran his first race eight years ago. Ms. Van Hooser needs to let us know not only what she is against [Godfreyism], but what she is for. Not only what she will not do in office [arrange handshake golden parachutes with the taxpayer's money for his cronies; take lower bids on public property from his cronies rather than higher bids for the property from others; triple the city's debt load; try to sell of the city's parks and benchlands to his cronies for their real estate speculations; block transit projects in Ogden because they might make his gondolas obsession even less likely to happen; oppose open government and full disclosure at every opportunity; etc.], but what she will do. Debates run by neutral parties could provide her with an opportunity to do that.
I find people like "voter" rather amusing! It is obvious that he is in way over his head as it pertains to discussing political and economic matters in Ogden. Still, in his dim witted little way he thinks he is being clever and intellectually competitive!
I especially liked his response to Bernake where he chastised him for not knowing just what the debt on the Rec center is! I would say that is the case with virtually every one in Ogden, including the mayor and his entire staff. The whole thing is so clouded in secrecy and incompetence that no one truly knows the score. Is it twenty million or is it forty million? Regardless of what it is, it is way too much and it is apparently failing. It defies logic that it is making money when it is only busy on friday nights and saturday. It is closed Sunday and virtually a ghost town all other times of the week. In addition, the operators are heavily subsidized by the city. How could any one say that this represents success? Any one but the mayor and his sycophants that is.
Albert:
I agree we have not yet seen a full accounting of the cost [to the city] of the Junction's construction. But it's too early yet to draw sound conclusions, seems to me, about whether the Junction elements already on line will be successful or not, and at what cost or benefit to the city.
Business can be very episodic and still profitable. Many retail businesses do half of their annual business between Thanksgiving and Christmas. Entertainment and recreational businesses can have very slow times during the week or day, and still make money on the busy times. We just don't know yet. The Junction/Salomon Center businesses have not been open long enough over enough seasons to know for sure.
The one most at risk, I'd say, is the 45 dollar per couple of minutes wind tunnel ride. I am very skeptical that the Ogden recreational market can or will support that over the long term. Be we shall see.
Ogden put a very very large and public bet on the success of the Junction/Salomon Center and tossed the dice. The cubes are still bouncing around down the table and we don't know yet if we crapped out or not. Just have to wait and see. I, as an Ogden homeowner and tax payer, sincerely hope we did not.
What we can argue about now, before the final results are in, is whether a city's government ought to be in the business of bankrolling private business ventures, and by doing so making huge bets with public money on their succeeding. Whether that constitutes wise governance. And that is, at the very least, very much an open question.
Voter is just out of his/her league.
It's true that if I and the other "gang" members had been in charge, we'd have a thriving retail mall downtown!
FrontRunner is coming and most folks love a bargain. Jeske and I and several others suggested a high-end discount outlet..ala Kimball Junction..
Recall Burdett sneering that an outlet mall had to be located next to a freeway to be successful? Nonsense.
Billboards proclaiming the mall and to take exit ####, go east to WA Blvd and 24th..and voila!
The shoppers would flock in. And not just the discount mall, other retail stores too.
TJ Maxx, Penney's etc are set to open in Riverdale, folks.
All that revenue lost because Ogden's mayor couldn't get his head out of....uh...a gondola car.
I used to beg Godfrey to tell us which RETAIL shops were coming into the Junction. He would just stare at me with those dead eyes. (That malady afflicts some CC members also).
No wonder. He never intended retail shops to be in the Junction. It's just a tawdry, gaudy Tijuana arcdae! Expensive too.
What a sham and a scam. Citizens wanted to vote on whether we agreed to be bonded for that 'vision', but we were denied that privilege by the little dictator. Now we'll be paying for decades.
No, it wasn't necessary to tear down the old mall....it could have been renovated and thriving today if Godfrey knew how to attract real businesses that employ lots of people and attract shoppers.
Revenue, revenue, revenue. So much lost, so little gained.
Only 41 days til the election!!!
After all, voter, where did you gain you're expertise in city management? As for substance and knowledge neither seems particularly applicable to our mayor but I agree, voter, the mayor knows where to go and who to see to GET "this" and "that" but isn't it about time he learned how to GIVE us a taste of good, honest city government?
"And then there's bernanke" voter.
I'll bet if we asked you could tell us all about the bonding for the HAC and the Junction, right! And you mentioned proof. Tell us voter, have you seen the books? I suppose we have to conclude that you're connected, right? And speaking of sources, voter, what are yours?
BTW, voter, now that you've enlightened us with your opinions, how about some verifiable facts?
Relax, good readers, you're wasting energy trying to argue with Captain Geiger of Wayne Peterson's famed Squirrel Patrol or his subordinate; Geigers and their fellow Geigers and dipshit assbags like Blodgetts and Ballantynes and Allens and Geigers think that gondolas are the greatest things ever and nothing --not even the finest onions in the world -- will ever change that. Geigers, you see, think gondolas rule and that Lying Little Matty Gondola Godfrey and Wayne Peterson will save our town with a lot of gondolas. See, gondolas are extra super special and if you had a gondola, well, then, you would be not only special, but a millionaire, because you had a gondola! See how great gondolas are? Little Bob Geiger loves gondolas so much, in fact, that his gondola activism has caused his tennis court to be egged and stomped upon; that his Geigerian yellow pick-up with enough decals to make a goddamn 13-year-old Thrasher magazine fan and skate punk choke has been vandalized; that his wife lives in fear of his children being hurt because of their father's love of gondolas! and Lying Little Matty Gondola Godfrey. Really, Geiger, you are, without a doubt, the biggest (smallest and baldest) douchebag who ever lived in OTown. We don't want you, your onion-reeking father, or your six employees here anymore. Get bent, and get lost. Descente is through in this town, Geiger. You stupid Geiger. Geiger, Geiger, Geiger, Geiger, Geiger, Geiger, Geiger, Geiger, Geiger, Geiger...
Being contrary here is like hosing down a hornet's nest. All the little critters rush out with stingers ready, darting and jabbing in a shark like eating frenzy.
Let's see....I'll take these one at a time, but I'll be brief:
"i like"....Nope, I don't sell mittens but it's sure nice to see the good number of ski and outdoor companies who have chosen Ogden as their home. I see nothing wrong with this picture.
"play fair"....What Due Diligence? The blog is for opinion, nothing more. And if you're concerned about whosw really responsibile for the old hole in the ground, try the Dirks Administration. Those guys tore down all the old, rustic buildings to Earnest Hahn could build the original mall. And, uh, remember when the actor, Fred Smith, entered the race and dodged the first debate. Got 'im trashed and he's still trying to catch up.
"curm"....I don't recall writing anything about the gondola and you spent the better part of your post going over OLD news, blah, blah, blah. Let it go. It's over. No sale of the golf course, no gondola in the visible future. And one other thing, I believe in my original post I mentioned that, even though I disagree, Suzy's handlers having her skip the Chamber debate is probably sound, political advice. But it doesn't show me much in her ability to take on a difficult task. Opinion only here, but think about it.
"albert"....go to a City Coucil meeting. There, your questions about 20 mil or 40 mil would have been answered. THE COUNCIL VOTED ON THE BONDS, genius. It's transparent. And unless YOU are sitting at the Junction 24/7, and really have the books in hands, it's you who is defying logic.
"sharon"....You still seem to be on the "Outlet" band-wagon and apparently think that THAT was Ogden's ONLY answer to salvation. It seems Jeske dances to your drumbeat and votes "NO" on most everything because there are too many "unanswered questions." Maybe she should ask a few, then. And I wonder, the Junction consists of 20-25 acres, and do you think it possible some retail might go in there....OR THE SURROUNDING AREAS?!? What a novel idea for the myriad of investors who are coming to town.
"old guy"....again, my posts are my opinion, just like everyone elses. Try to relax and see what happens downtown over the next few years.
One step at a time, people.
Voter, Not to sound negative but, so far these out door companies represent only a hand full of jobs. We welcome them, but get real, they are not our salvation.
Dirks is not responsible for the expanse od dirt that was and to some degree is downtown. Lying little matty's done that all on his own.
As far as the council, that was not the current council and you may recall the mayors rubber stamp council members were tossed by the voters because of the bonds. Further more, there's a whole lot of $$$$ besides the bonds that has gone done this hole, and the final tally is yet to come.
This stupid rec center will never pay off for the tax payers of Ogden, sink or swim, the toal costs aren't even considered into the lease, the bonds and future BDO revenues are committed, until maturity. If Neilson folds or makes some money has no relivance.
An outlet mall, given Ogden's as well as northern Utahs demographics would be a very sound venture, it makes quite alot of sense.
Lastly, are you blind? Other than the city, clandistinely operating for the alledged fraud gadi, what investors?
P.S. given the fact that lying little matty has never told the truth,as evidenced with the latest UTA thing, do you really believe the gondola and sale of the golf course are even possibly off the table. Please think in the future.
voter...
I guess that means because you vote in city council meeting that you know it all. Right Rick. so don't tell us how it is. When the junk shun belly's up are you going to step forward with your check book and bail it out?
voter: take a cold shower (unless you live on the east side and your water is orange).
Hey Voter:
You either were not at the Council meeting or you dozedoff...Jeske asked several questions!
That's why she knew enough *or not enough" to vote NO!
Boy O Boy, "voter" sure got a couple of things right! He stirred up a real hornet's nest, and the blog is really all about differing opinions!
Although I disagree with "voter's" take on things, he is certainly entitled to his opinion, isn't he?
Besides, if he and the other Godfreyites didn't have a differing opinion on things we would all be sitting around arguing with ourselves on this blog! How boring would that be? Maybe we could learn to hate each other over how much more we hate Godfrey than the next blogger. Well, that wouldn't be fair of course cause I would win that one hands down! Ain't nobody has more contempt for the little prick than me!!
But at least there is one thing I can agree with voter on, just what the hell does this Suzy broad stand for anyway? Is her whole campaign going to be as big a secret as Godfrey's campaign manager is? Is she going to just be another Godfrey only with a pretty face and a little meat on her bones? (hell, that would even be an improvement!)
Common Suzy, who the hell are you anyway, and do you actually have a platform? And if you had any balls you would go into that lame assed Chamber of Commerce debate and shove their stupidity right down their mealy mouthed throats. That's what Neil would do! Course now he's a debatin man with a pair, what are you?
Despite what the Stand-Ex might tell you, Geiger or Geiger disciple(voter), it's myriad people, not myriad of. Maybe you need a style guide with your "How to Build Communities with Gondolas." Jagoff. Eat an onion.
Generally speaking, bill c, the lease pmt is figured on what the debt service is. A quick look at the records, which is public information, will support this being the case with the rec center. Better take a business refresher class up at the college.
And jason w., you have a tough time getting your point across without a "myriad of insults," don't you. Your stuff would read better if you knocked off the trash litany and just penned your thoughts. What are you so PO'd at, anyway?
Voter,
You question eveyone's posts but don't counter with facts. Do you have any or,
Do you believe in blind faith (irrespective of what your logic should tell you)?
To Hornet,
You stated "the lease pmt is figured on what the debt service is. A quick look at the records, which is public information, will support this being the case with the rec center."
Could you provide the facts to back up this statement, i.e. a copy of the lease agreement as you suggest that you have read it and you say that it is public?
Hey hornet, I have the lease right in front of me, please do the math sir. $57,900.00 per month X 12= $694,800.00 per year. Multiply by the 20 years, $13,896,000.00.
Now factor in the purchase of the old mall, knocking down Woodbury's building and getting sued, rightly so, knocking down the old mall. I believe we've all ready exceeded the total return of the lease. I haven't even included the new rec center building because no one knows what that will cost, construction is not yet completed. Let us not forget the $145,000.00 per month Bdo revenues that will continue for 20 more years, that alone comes up to $34,800,000.00.
Boy, that better be one hell of a facility, the Taj Mahal.
Nice try hornet, it's too bad the public never got to see the simple numbers,all laid out prior to starting down this old dirt road. Oh, I forgot, we still don't even know what that silly building cost us.
Oh, one more thing hornet, normally I wouldn't speak for someone else but I know Jason is attending a commitment. Any one that has stayed informed is or should be mad as hell, OUST LYING LITTLE MATTY GONDOLA GODFREE.
Why aint he in prison?
Shucks hornet, I forgot the $5,000,000 the city invested in stair steppers and bowling pins, hey, but I've heard they react to black lights. Say what?
Oh, and voter, from the comment in your post about the Dirks administration I take it your not aware of the fact that Dirks is also a gondola, rec center, sell public lands advocate as well. He's allowed his name to be used as endorsement for one of the GONDOLA BOYS ticket, you know, the 3 hand picked finance aided, what lying little matty hope's will be lapdog stephanson clones, peterson, johnson and blockhead eccles. Go to blockhead's website, it's right there. And while on the subject of the gondola boys ticket, the key campain captain for all 3 is none other than the sign bandit, shortdeck geiger.
Shortdeck bobby recently stated that he learned everything he knows about sign destruction and theft from his visionary idol, lying little matty himself.
So much for Godfrey's statement about having crime under control.
I was at Taco Taco on Washington Blvd. having a great meal today when the owner told us about a man being killed just South of the cafe at the filling station last night.
His statement was that the gangs are all around everywhere. He is right in the middle of them.
He has to make sure a man is around to close at 9:00 at night because the women get harrassed and worse.
I didn't see anything in today's paper. Who is betting that it goes into Godfrey's count?
Yes it is true there was a homicide last night. As well as two other shots fired calls. I understand there was also a robbery somewhere up north.
From the sounds of things tonight is not shaping up any better. I was informed that a couple people have been stabbed tonight at the same house.
Hey, how about that reduction in crime in Ogden Mr Mayor???
Lies, damn lies and statistics...
So Bill C, you think that the entire Junction, the purchase, the demo, the infrastructure, and the buildings, should be factored into the Rec Center's lease payments? Like I said, there are business classes available at Weber State.
Oh yeah, do you think that Salamon gets the naming rights for free? Where would you put that entry on your P&L, old buddy?
So how much is Salamon paying for naming rights Hornet? As I recall they got them for free as part of the inducement for Amer Company to come to town. True, not true?
I also think it has been conventional wisdom over the years in real estate that the lease payment on any given commercial building is usually one percent of the building's value per month. That has been my experience for many years.
So if that is even close, and the Rec Center cost $20,000,000, then the monthly rent should be $200,000 per month. As I recall, the fat cats and golds deal is for $57,000 per month. This then translates into a $143,000 per month subsidy that these two bush league companies are getting from the tax payers of Ogden. That translates into a $1,716,000 per year gift from me, you and all other tax payers in Ogden to these two friends of Godfrey. That lease incidentely was on a no bid no competition basis. No other business people, bowling alley owners, gym owners or other business owners were allowed to bid on this sweet heart deal.
Please point out and correct me on any thing on this deal, or my understanding of it, that I do not have correct.
Hornet, The solomon name was gratis. Look it up.
Just how much if any of the wasted millions do you feel the tax payer should be entitled to recoup. This whole idea was about a stupid rec center, and no developer or investor would touch it. That's why lying little matty and cabal became very stupid developers on their own, finance with the city's credit.
Nothing down there could not have been accomplished much more cost effective using the existing building.
Oh I forgot, this inspiration includes a silly, stupid urban gondola to nowhere, key to everything coming together.
Recall that Gold's and Fat Cats were to toss in a million and a half bucks worth of 'equipment'....I don't think that happened. If so, who keeps the equipment when they go belly up?
The visionary had to have a mall "anchored by a gym and a bowling alley because it would be the first ever in the country".
Hmmm....now I wonder why all those other cities didn't clamor to be the first in the country to anchor their malls with carny attractions and no stores????
Probably becaue they have intelligent mayors at the helm. Even those towns that have teenage mayors fare better than Ogden.
I hear that Gold's gym in the Junction has such shoddy workmanship that it is being shored up. And the construction on the new Gold's in Roy is on hold because of it.
But, hey! It sure makes me proud to have a mayor who is a visionary with crystal balls. Or are those just a vison too?
To Hornet.
As I posted earlier, can you back up your comments with facts or evidence? You suggest that your views or facts are based on common knowledge, so please help me to find the facts that support your position or views, I can be swayed. There are a lot of other people that read this blog in order to search out the truth as well.
If not, then please do some research and please come back.
I've been in business too long to just accept what someone tells me when it comes to business opportunities. For example VesCor, sounded great but look what's going on there.
Good post, Ozboy. And I do believe that your lease computations are accurate. However, if the Solomon naming rights were part of a larger package that was meant to persuade Amer to come to town, isn't this part of the bigger picture that shows economic prosperity is on the rise in downtown? If the Junction, and all of its businesses, including Golds, Fat Kats, Pri, Wells Fargo, Earnshaw, et al, serves to draw other businesses into Ogden, then it could be argued that the WHOLE thing, including the Rec Center and Miller's Theaters, is and will continue to be a success, which is basically my premise.
This thing seems to be working. One only needs to look around. Patience is a virtue.
Hornet, you named all the businessess....are there others who have been bedazzled into coming here too? Will you name them?
Are there any who are opening their businesses without a handout from the mayor?
THAT would be a novelty...good old American free enterprise at work. Open shop on your own dime.
Voter:
Just two brief points: You wrote: "curm"....I don't recall writing anything about the gondola and you spent the better part of your post going over OLD news, blah, blah, blah. Let it go. It's over. No sale of the golf course, no gondola in the visible future.
I spoke to people who had the mayor knock on their doors, campaigning earlier in the week. He told them the gondola was going to happen, that if re-elected it would be a major development project, etc. You may think it's dead. I sincerely hope you are right. But the Mayor disagrees with you.
And all those "old" things you think we should dismiss now as "old news." Well, the proper term for all those "old" things is "Mayor Godfrey's record."
Hey voter/hornet:
I had already concluded that your posts are "[your] opinion(s), just like everyone elses" but, perhaps I overlooked the possibility that you are incapable of forming opinions on your own and are merely regurgitating the party line.
As I recall, I had asked you to supply some facts to back up your opinions (if you care whether anyone believes you, i.e.). I realize that I am asking a great deal of a sycophant but give it a try, we may all be pleasantly surprised.
Here's a thought voter/hornet, why don't you, once again, take all the additional posts that you have inspired and respond - only this time give us a few facts and a bit less bullshit!
BTW,I am perfectly relaxed and looking forward to what will be happening downtown when our regrettable mayor has been removed from office, either by the voters or the legal authorities - whichever occurs first.
Curmudgeon, in your Sept. 21, 2007, 2:07 PM Post, you said, “Tell it, Thanks for the added detail. Interesting that your take on the Council's reading of the contract flatly contradicts what UTA and Godfrey administration flacks [aka Mr. Patterson] said about how it will all work in the SE story.” Since the Council developed a “press release” which was headlined in the SE this morning, it is apparent that Godfrey is lying about the whole gondola study fiasco, and the SE/Scott Schwebke write exactly what the Godfrey tells them to.
“It's been fairly evident for some years now that Mayor Godfrey's governing "style" (politely so called) --- which includes equal elements of "my way or the highway and "bull in a china shop" --- has made it difficult, if not impossible on many occasions for the Council, even when it sought to, to cooperate with him for the common good of Ogden City.” Truer words never spoken, Curmudgeon! IT IS TIME FOR A DIFFERENT MAYOR SO THAT OGDEN TRULY CAN MOVE FORWARD AND CONTINUE IT’S ECONOMIC GROWTH!!
Voter you state in your Sept. 22, 2007, 3:42 PM post, “I don't recall writing anything about the gondola . . . you spent the better part of your post going over OLD news, . . . Let it go. It's over. No sale of the golf course, no gondola in the visible future.” So Mr. Know-It-All, WHY IN THE HELL IS THE MAYOR SNEAKING AROUND BEHIND THE COUNCIL’S BACK GETTING UTA TO SPEND $247,000. ON A STUDY FOR THE GONDOLA? TALK ABOUT STUPID AND A WASTE OF GOOD TAXPAYER MONEY!!
Curmudgeon, I am surprised that the liar admitted that he was still pushing the gondola -- he must have thought he was talking to a fellow "LiftOgden" supporter.
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