Thursday, August 20, 2009

Important Ogden City Council Work Session Tonight

A heads-up on an ideal opportunity for the lumpencitizens to help nip another hare-brained multi-million dollar Godfrey scheme in the bud

Here's a quick reminder of tonight's council work session, wherein the council will discuss a proposed amendment to the City’s Capital Improvement Plan regarding water tanks proposed on the Southeast Bench around the 36th Street area. For more information, please refer to our August 15, 2009 article, where we examine the matter in more detail. Additional information is also available within the council's August 15, 2009 press release. Here are tonight's time/location coordinates:

Date: Tonight, August 20, 2009
Time: 5:30 p.m.
Location: Ogden City Council Chambers

In a morning comment under an earlier article, Dan S. admonishes that the ultimate outcome regarding the water tank installation will likely have broad implications, including possible increased impact on our open space. Dan's not just whistling Dixie here, by the way. It's not just our trails system which is in jeopardy here. What's clear at this point is that Mayor Godfrey's proposed 36th street tank installation is geared toward providing the foundational infrastructure for his harebrained $146 million top of 36th street Mount Ogden Golf Course Redevelopment Proposal, which would include condos, hotels, a possible gondola station, along with numerous other high impact bells and whistles.

The city council is bending over backwards to obtain robust citizen input on this issue. Citizens have been invited to express their ideas and views with comments being limited to five minutes. Comment cards will also be available at the meeting and any comments may also be e-mailed to

Hopefully tonight's meeting will generate a robust turnout by Ogden City residents who'll be willing to offer their uninhibited input. A 36th street water tank installation would constitute an irreversible step toward another multimillion dollar taxpayer-borne Godfrey boondoggle; and tonight's council work session presents an ideal opportunity for the lumpencitizens to nip this hare-brained Godfrey scheme in the bud.

We'll now open this topic for immediate discussion. Later reports from those WCF readers who attend tonight's meeting are also warmly invited, of course.

Take it away O Gentle Ones.

Update 8/20/09 1:13 p.m. MT: We just got this seemingly good news in our email about tonight's work session from somebody who posts under the psuedonym "Film At Eleven":

This just in in. Standard-Ex will be tweeting tonight live from city city council work session:
Poor ole Scott Schwebke. For some reason he can't bring hmself to post with his own name on Weber County Forum. How sad it is that even now he refuses to come off his "high horse," and to directly relate to the the Emerald City Lumpencitizens.

Sad, very sad indeed!

Update 8/20/09 5:21 p.m. MT: For what it's worth, it's our understanding that Scott Schwebke will be tweeting live from tonight's work meeting. Here's the Std-Ex Twitter link:
Ace Reporter Schwebke's live Twitter tweets
What the hell, we'll take whatever we can get.

Hello, Mr. Schwebke. are you there? Over!

Update 8/20/09 5:38 p.m. MT: We now learn that Dan S. is also inside the council chambers, and will be doing his own live blogging tonight, on behalf of Weber County Forum:

I'm here at the council work session, ready to live-blog what I can! All council members are present except Mr. Johnson. Mr. Franke is giving the council an overview of the process, -Dan S.
Check out Dan's live posts, by opening, viewing and periodically refreshing our lower comments page.

Update 8/21/09 7:53 a.m. MT: The Std-Ex provides a post-work session writeup on its Live! website this morning. Read Scott Schwebke's online story here:
Ogden residents don’t want water tank atop 36th


Film At Eleven said...

This just in in. Standard-Ex will be tweeting tonight live from city city council work session.

RudiZink said...

Hopefully Scott, you won't try to multitask too much. Some us are still chuckling about the live "triple threat" reporting you did a week or so, when much of your video broadcasts included close up pictures of you crotch, after you dropped your internet device into your lap, whilst you were still taking notes.

Stick to the basics, Scott.

I'll definitely put up your Twitter feed on WCF later in the afternoon... assuming there will BE one.

Another question. Why don't you just post your comments on WCF under your own name, Scott?

Editorial editor editor Doug Gibson actually does this fairly regularly.

I think Doug provides a good example for the rest of you journalists, who haven't yet made their adjustments to a new online media world.

We're definitely looking forward to tomights Schwebe Tweets from tonights work sesion, to say the least.

RudiZink said...

Oooow. Here's something interesting via Twitter:

Reporter Scott Schwebke will tweet today starting at 5:30 p.m. from city council work session on water tanks Story....

Perhaps we'll put this link up as an update... provided we don't come up with something better first.

Dan S. said...

I'm here at the council work session, ready to live-blog what I can! All council members are present except Mr. Johnson. Mr. Franke is giving the council an overview of the process.

RudiZink said...

What a relief, Dan. we were afraid we'd have to rely on Schwebke's "tweets."

Go for it, my man!

we're sitting on the edges of our chairs said...

See above.

Dan S. said...

Franke is reviewing a notebook of information on the water tank proposals that has been provided to the council members. The notebook contains a memo from council staff raising various questions about tank locations, storage capacity, etc., plus a summary of citizen concerns. Franke will be looking for "direction" from the council this evening, even though it's just a work session. The notebook also contains copies of two engineering reports, by CRS and Sunrise Engineering. Also a reference to the Bowen and Collins report.

Councilman Johnson has just arrived, so all council members are now present.

Franke is still discussing the notebook, which also contains copies of all the planning commission documents, as well as state regulations on municipal water systems.

Process tonight will be: Report from administrative staff, report from planning staff, with opportunities for questions from the council. After that will be comments from the public, with a 5-minute limit per person. Finall will be discussion among the council.

Dan S. said...

Next up: George Benford, Director of Public Services.

Benford also introduces engineers Justin Anderson and Kenton Moffett, as well as Craig Frisbee and someone else from Water Dept., Fire Marshall, and Rick Grover from planning staff.

Benford emphasizes credentials of the various consultants, and expresses confidence that their reports would stand up to scrutiny of any other engineers.

Benford says there are two goals: Catch up to existing demands and plan for future growth. Looking 50 years into the future. We're not talking about current zoning; we just look at what areas could be built on.

Benford: We try to be environmentally responsible, with revegetation of disturbed areas, etc.

Dan S. said...

Justin Anderson, City Engineer begins answering written questions from council:

* Describe all elements of project and their costs: New transmission line from booster station to 46th Street tanks; air-vac project on Ridgedale and Skyline (in progress); 2 water storage tanks, 5 MG and 1.25 MG. 36th Street tank would include booster station, transmission line to 1.25 MG tank, demolition of existing 36th Street tanks; and pressure reducing valves at a few locations. Not all these have been designed, especially upper tank.

Stephens: Explain the change in tank location from 46th Street to 36th Street.

Anderson: When I came to the city the change had already been made. Previous city engineer must have thought 46th would be better location. But it would be very difficult to put such a large tank up there.

Stephenson: What else is better about 36th?

Anderson: A new tank at 46th would serve only areas served by existing tanks at that location. But the current deficiency is with the 36th Street tanks, according to the CRS report. (Brings out map of city and points to affected zones.)

Dan S. said...

Stephenson: Don't you have to run a transmission line between 36th and 46th in any case?

Anderson: The capacity deficiencies are mostly farther north. The only transmission line in the proposal is a replacement of an existing line from the Weber Basin water source to the 46th Street tanks. (No proposed line connecting 36th to 46th.)

Stephenson: Will the new proposed tank fix the deficiencies in zones 4 and 5?

Anderson: Correct.

Patterson cuts in: News article by Schwebke in May 2008 already assumes tank location was 36th, not 46th (insinuating that the council shouldn't be surprised with the change of location).

Dan S. said...

Stephenson: Might we still need a new (smaller) tank at the 46th Street location?

Anderson: We could. But right now we have bigger problems at 36th, even with the condition of the existing tanks.

Garcia: Which costs more, repair or replacement?

Anderson: Depends. We want something that will last for 50 years. The existing tanks date from 1940 to 1960.

Jeske: We were told earlier that Shadow Valley didn't have enough water pressure. Tell me, how does moving the tank farther north serve Shadow Valley?

Anderson: The deficiencies in Shadow Valley are with flow rates, not static pressure. Air pockets in the lines impair their function. We're installing air-vacs to help this situation. If this works isn't sufficient, we may need to up-size some of the transmission lines.

Stephens: Would we need a new tank at 46th Street?

Anderson: I would propose such a tank (1.25 MG tank?).

[Discussion is getting unclear, regarding which tank is which.]

Gochnour: Why is Forest Service ownership such a roadblock? Existing tank is on FS land.

Anderson: FS would have to go through a NEPA process, drawn out for a year to 18 months.

[more discussion]

Anderson: Bond money has to be spent by June 4 (2010?).

Stephenson: We'd still need more capacity at 36th.

Patterson: Smaller tank won't be going near 46th Street tank.

Anderson: Site would be south of Strong's Canyon. [WSU property]

Gochnour: Wouldn't a transmission line solve the problem of moving water between the two areas?

Anderson: We'd like to transfer water between the south and north parts of the city, to provide redundancy.

Dan S. said...

Stephens: Would this project lessen our dependence on Weber Basin water?

Anderson: We pay the same for Weber Basin water whether we use it or not. A transfer would occur more in an emergency situation, not on a regular basis.

Gochnour: But you can't transfer water to Weber Basin without a new transmission line

Anderson: Correct.

Jeske reads from CRS report: Future development would be in higher zones... [Confusion over what this implies.]

Patterson: Let's get on with presentations.

Dan S. said...

Anderson: Are there sufficient funds for all elements of project? [Itemizes costs] Bottom line: Yes there's enough for all these items (does not include new connection between 46th and 36th).

Dan S. said...

Franke: What about new line along Ridgedale Drive?

Anderson: Yes, that's included.

Anderson reads question about tank site in Mt. Ogden Park, near golf course. But we don't make determinations on what can and cannot be developed. (Translation: We assume everything under 30% slope will be developed.)

Dan S. said...

Wicks: We intend this space to remain public open space for the next 50 years. If we remove this land from calculation, would cost go down?

Anderson: (non-sequitur) This summer alone, we've had several shut-downs from Weber Basin Water. [So the fear-mongering begins. And as far as I can tell, this issue is irrelevant to Wicks's question.]

Benford cuts in: We have done a calculation on the golf course area. It would remove 300,000 gallons from the reservoir size. Subtract that from 5 million and it doesn't really matter. [He should be talking about the 1.25 MG tank! But I don't think the council is following this.]

Dan S. said...

Franke clarifies, and finally they get it.

Stephens: So it's the 1.25 MG tank that would potentially serve development on the golf course and adjacent open space?

Anderson: Yes.

Stephens: So would it be feasible not to build that tank?

Anderson: Part of the reason we're proposing that tank is to provide redundancy to south end of city. We're having issues with shutdown of Weber Basin.

Stephens: So this tank would serve a present need?

Anderson: I believe so, yes. [I can't see whether his nose is growing.]

Dan S. said...

Anderson goes on to next question: What is purpose of 1.25 MG tank, when WSU's plans are long-range and Mt. Ogden Park is open space? Answer: I don't know when WSU is going to expand. I could just build a transmission line to connect 36th to 46th now. But I want an upper tank that could provide redundancy. [But it wouldn't be connected!]

Franke: Planning Commission discussed this tank serving as emergency backup for hospital. Could you discuss this?

Anderson: Hospital is in a lower zone, but fed by Weber Basin water. We'd like to tie the 1.25 MG tank into existing infrastructure [vague!] to provide redundancy. [Why can't this be done from existing 36th Street tanks?]

Franke: Without 1.25 MG tank, what would be plan for backup to hospital?

Anderson: I don't know. We have no current backup method.

Dan S. said...

Next question is about possible new, higher pressure zone.

Anderson: No, there's no new pressure zone. We would just create a sub-zone of zone 1, served by new 1.25 MG tank.

Next question: CRS report mentions development plans at golf course; what impact did this assumption have on the report?

Anderson: I know of no such plans. That report was done in early 2008. The assumption was that all land under 30% slope would be developed.

Next question: What is the requirement for spending the money by a certain time?

Anderson: June 4, 2011. [Oops, I incorrectly guessed 2010 above.] Franke reads applicable federal regulations on tax-exempt municipal bonds. 85% of bond proceeds must be allocated to expenditures by this date, which means the work must be completed (not merely contracted).

Cook: This is for all of the water projects, not each project separately. So it would need to be determined how much has been spent on all the other projects.

Dan S. said...

Moffett is now describing location of proposed new 5 MG tank at 36th Street. Trails will be rerouted before construction begins. Gib Wallace says trails will be improved. Access road location has been changed twice to accommodate trails and planning commission.

Site of existing 36th Street will be reclaimed. [How exactly?]

Site for 1.25 MG tank is not yet determined.

Wicks: How will you deal with noxious weed invasion?

Moffett's answer is emphatic but vague.

Stephens: What about fault lines?

Moffett: Fault shifted tank location and made existing disturbance larger, to get clear of the fault.

Dan S. said...

Next question is about condition of existing 36th Street tanks.

Clark: Tanks are visually inspected every days. Divers went in three years ago. 15 years ago there was some exterior work.

Stephens: Why concrete rather than steel for new tanks?

Anderson: Concrete used to be much more expensive but now there's not much difference. Concrete can be buried. Maintenance is much less on concrete tank. A steel tank requires major maintenance every 5-10 years, costing $100-200 thousand.

Dan S. said...

Staff are showing fuzzy pictures of patches over bullet holes, bulges in existing steel tanks. You can't tell what any of the pictures actually are.

Stephenson throw another softball: Is it true that steel tanks have no seismic protection but new concrete tanks would?

Anderson: Correct.

Dan S. said...

Jeske: Would 1.25 MG tank be buried?

Anderson: Depends on location.

Stephenson: How old are 46th Street tanks?

Answer: One is only 18 years old; other is older.

Next written question: Would upper tank and transmission line to 46th Street be done at same time?

Anderson: "Yes", but connection would be indirect, through distribution system.

Gochnour: Isn't that transmission line unfunded at this time?

Anderson is hedging: Says he would "like" to put in a 20-inch line to 46th Street tanks, but he doesn't know if there's enough in the budget for that. So he'll just connect it into the distribution system. [And this could be done without the tank!]

Dan S. said...

Franke: Please summarize capacity calculations.

Anderson: There's equalization storage (normal use), emergency storage, and fire flow storage. Fire department is here to explain fire flow calculations.

Stephenson: How many days of emergency storage?

Anderson gives vague answer. Shows graph of actual water level over time, which could be used to extrapolate how long it would last if not replenished.

Franke refers council to fire flow calculations (letter in notebook).

This concludes answers to written questions from the council.

Dan S. said...

Deputy Fire Marshall (Daniel something): The fire flow numbers are based on size of large buildings at WSU. Just to protect one of those buildings would require over one million gallons.

Recent fire on Quincy (condos) used 3/4 million gallons over three hours.

Recent fire on Old Post Road: We didn't have enough water to put fire out, could only defend surrounding area. (This was partly due to winds and high temperatures, and also due to size of pipes delivering water. Doesn't sound like it was a storage capacity issue.)

Rick Grover from Planning staff: Planning Commission approved conditional use permit for 5 MG tank. Shows aerial photo of site.

Stephens: Will PC also have to review site of 1.25 MG tank? Franke says yes, but I'm not so sure if it's on WSU land.

Dan S. said...

Grover: New service road for 5MG tank site would cross Strong's Creek.

Grover is describing efforts to reroute trails around Strong's Creek.

PC did specify that site of existing tanks be revegetated.

PC had reservations about sizes of proposed tanks, and didn't pass their motion recommending approval until size specification was removed (and thus left up to the council).

Ray Vaughn said...

Has anyone seen a actual
map or plan where rerouting existing trails would be located or discussion of how they would be improved? How long would it take to reroute the existing trails? Would old trails be available until new trails are ready? Would construction of tanks delay or impare hiking the current trail? How will rerouting existing trails be funded?

Dan S. said...

Cook now responds to Patterson's earlier comment about news article from 18 months ago: Cook cannot find anything in the record of the applicable meetings saying that this was ever discussed with the council.

Comment from Jeske: Future development should be funded by developers, not current water customers.

Now it's time for public comments.

Dan S. said...

Comment from Sandra Davies: Worried about safety in earthquakes and from mudslides.

Comment from Jock Glidden: Doesn't seem like we should need so many tanks, scattered along the east bench. Why not a single tank with pipelines to transmit the water? Wants to know what minimum size would be to serve only existing developments, not new developments.

Comment from Deb Badger: CIty should not authorize tanks that enable new development. Preserve as much as possible of Mt. Ogden Park as public open space. Old tank sites should be reclaimed. Doesn't want water rates raised to eliminate open space.

Comment from Mike Vause: We've seen activity recently in Malan's Basin recently. Is there a possibility that water from this tank could be pumped up to there?

Dan S. said...

[I commented next and won't try to summarize here.]

Comment from Rob Garner: He has submitted an alternative proposal that would be cheaper and more efficient. Existing tanks at 36th Street do not need to be replaced. Formal tests can demonstrate whether there's a problem, and if there is, it's cheaper to repair an existing tank, and it's better to have 2 or 3 small tanks than one big one (more robust system). How much capacity is needed? CRS report throws in the entire kitchen sink. Existing proposal doesn't solve redundancy issue. City's plan is not cost effective.

Dan S. said...

No more comments from the public.

Patterson offers to have staff respond to public comments.

Moffett defends seismic studies that have been done.

Moffett confirms that according to CRS report, 1.25 MG tank is needed only for future development--but he insinuates that it's actually needed for existing development as well. (So he's contradicting the consultants!) Talks about transmission and distribution lines. A line from 36th to 46th would allow replenishing 46th Street tanks faster. The upper tank would mean you'd only have to pump half as far; this would save money. [This doesn't make sense.]

Stephens: If you could choose between the tank and the transmission line, which would you choose?

Moffett: I'd choose the tank. [Reasons are unclear and not necessarily applicable to this location.]

Patterson reminds us that Weber Basin water was shut off (briefly) 9 times this summer.

Stephenson: What about short-term connection into small distribution lines?

Moffett: You wouldn't want to do that all the time, but it's better than nothing.

Dan S. said...

What about pumping up to Malan's Basin?

Moffett: We're not planning for that; the tank isn't sized for that.

Benford: Two or three years ago we talked to Chris Peterson about his development. It was always understood that he would have to develop his own water resources. Some of the reports refer to Peterson's plans, because there were discussions with Peterson at that time. But none of the capacity is designed to accommodate Peterson. The 1.25 MG tank could serve developments around golf course, but not Malan's Basin.

Wicks: Since WSU is such a large user, wouldn't it make sense to have them build a tank to facilitate their own development?

Benford: If that were the only reason, yes. But there are other benefits to the 1.25 MG tank, and the money is available now.

Dan S. said...

Now Benford is discussing the existing steel tanks, maintenance problems.

Anderson responds regarding the "emergency" storage requirement. The state requires that there be emergency storage, but doesn't specify how much. CRS made a recommendation, conferring with city staff. [So he can't explain the number itself.]

Wicks: What about installing a SCADA monitoring system? Should that be a higher priority?

Anderson: We do have a SCADA system, and anything new would be included in the system. [It isn't clear that this system is being fully used to operate system optimally.]

Dan S. said...

Steve Clark from water department holds up damaged hardware from 9th Street. The point is unclear, but apparently it has something to do with the wear and tear on a system that's supplied entirely by pumps, without any storage reservoirs.

Now the council will discuss where to go from here.

Dan S. said...

Moffett adds that it's cheaper to build two tanks at once, on same bid. Also, rehabbing an existing tank might cost about $250,000 per tank.

Wicks wants to see the numbers on this, in writing.

Dan S. said...

Wicks: Where do you want to put 1.25 MG tank?

Anderson: I would like to put it on WSU property, at the extreme eastern boundary (near city limit and Forest Service land). (He's holding up a map or drawing but I can't see it.) It would not be completely buried, but landscaping could help hide it. The drawing apparently doesn't show the access road.

Dan S. said...

Jeske is concerned that since site hasn't been chosen for 1.25 MG tank, they're not ready to make a decision.

Franke: The CIP ordinance could restrict the location if desired.

Franke now reads list of additional information that the council has asked for. Apparently the administration will be asked to provide this information (rather than hiring a consultant). If council members have additional questions they should get them to Mr. Franke.

Cook: The next opportunity to put this on the agenda would be September 22. Could also be postponed until October.

Dan S. said...

As they wrap up, they're thanking the staff and citizens who commented. Stephens thanks council leadership for allowing public input at a work session (which is more or less unprecedented).

RudiZink said...


On behalf of the readers of Weber County Forum (and my web stats software confirms that there have been hundreds of them tuning in this night) I'd like to extend my deep gratitude for the fantastic effort you put into reporting on the council work session tonight.

For my own part, I felt as if I'd actually been there. I'm also sure the many others who followed your comments tonight would wholeheartedly agree.

Many thanks, Dan. You're truly a community treasure!

We're danged lucky a man of your caliber (.44 mag.) decided to move into our community!


Biker Babe said...

Would that be a Ruger Super Black Hawk .44? With a 7.5 inch barrel?


(my favorite)

just sayin


Pro Se said...

It seems that the Godfrey people are making it up as they go along, assuming that their position of responsibility with the city will be equated with credibility - standard Godfrey modus operandi.

Rob Garner is credible and independent. The city council needs to hear from or even hire an outside consultant.

Of course, the Godfrey Administration will try to rush this, for the same reason every con artist tries to rush things.

The city council needs to vote this down. If they can't feel good about that now, then they should hire a consultant.

Curmudgeon said...


Want to add my thanks for the posts. I have to concede that the technical issues are beyond my ken, and so I'll have leave them to the Council and those with the necessary expertise to unravel.

Beyond the technical disagreements and questions, I found it very interesting that the Mayor's CAO [Mr. Pureheart Patterson] sees nothing wrong with the Council learning about changes like the moved tank by reading about them in the newspaper. He seems to think that's a perfectly reasonable way for the Mayor to convey information about major changes he's ordered in the water project plans the Council [and voters] approved.

And interesting that Mr. Cook called him on it: "Cook cannot find anything in the record of the applicable meetings saying that this was ever discussed with the council."

That the Mayor's CAO thinks it acceptable that the Council should have to read the morning paper to learn what the Mayor has done regarding Council-approved programs is telling. Odd that Pureheart Patterson didn't attach to his remarkable statement the Administration's usual whine about the Council not keeping in touch with the Mayor.

Thanks again, Dan.

Jim Hutchins said...

Thanks, Dan.

Dan S. said...

Ray Vaughn: To get your trails questions answered, you should probably talk to Gib Wallace. He lives on Binford Street and is probably in the phone book. Or you could reach him through the planning staff, or you could contact me privately and I'll give you his phone number and email address.

disgusted said...

Dan S

frankly in regards to pattersons comment about the may of 08 article about the tank location. when i read it i thought it was a misquote by the paper. i in fact called one of the city council members shortly thereafter and they thought it was a misquote as well.

patterson is a piece of work.

RudiZink said...

No, no, no, Biker babe...

It was the S&W Model 29 that I had in mind, when I made the off hand .44 MAG reference.

Definitely a classier weapon.

Biker Babe said...


I surrender ...

so, you googled Dirty Harry ...

just sayin


Bill C. said...

Redundant, talk about redundancy, I can't count the amount of times redunancy was mentioned by the engineers, but their plan never really acheives it.
Extendind the 20" line from 36th to 46th would acheive that objective and the much larger pipe would go a very long way towards solving the drawdown concerns.
This would most likely eliminate any need for the new small tank, but the small tank is critical to one very dear to the mayor.
Mike Vause questioned any involvement by Peterson, yes their is, but not as far as water goes just yet. If placed in just the right spot, this bogus mini tank could supply the access road which Peterson so desires for his mini, roadless joke of ski area in Malan's Basin.
It's sad to see all these public servants duck, skirt and in some cases lie and contradict themselves over and over to futher the crooked objectives of the very small lying and sinking fast mayor. The best and most cost effective solutions will never be explored, sad, very sad.

Biker Babe said...

p.s., Rudi -- but I have been counting the shots!

and I feel lucky

just sayin

tom said...

Comment from and about the Standard story Friday:

What this story doesn't tell us is that this is just one more secret deal of mayor Godfrey's to enrich his cronies.

It also doesn't tell us that the mayor originally got approval from the council for the tank to go up on 46th street and then he later unilaterally and behind closed doors switched it to the 36th location and that the action now is just an attempt to retroactively get approval because some one called him in his deception and he is now scrambling to make his nefarious little scheme legal.

His deceptive ways knows no bounds.

Casey Jones said...

Bill C., where did you get your engineering degree?

And when?

Bill C. said...

Well Casey Jones, the only railroading going on in this instance is the attempt by this administration to exploit what they believed was an opening for wasting many more tax dollars to benefit an old crony and of course this lying little mayors myopic visions.
Understanding the english language and getting off ones ass to attend the meeting is all that's required, my post basically comes straight from the engineers mouths. No degree required.
" Casey Jones you better watch your speed, trouble ahead, trouble behind, and you know that notion just crossed my mind."
Robert Hunter

Blaine Carl said...

I sort of liked Casey's play on words in his above post. And Bill C. came back with a pretty good retort, but actually, that little ditty comes from a number performed by the Grateful Dead entitled "Casey Jones." A guy named Jerry Garcia was the lead lyrisist/guitarist. A San Francisco group, many of their songs were recorded and performed at a place called the Keystone, across the bay in Berkley.

The real lyrics:

"Driving that train, high on cocaine,
Casey Jones is ready, watch your speed.
Trouble ahead, trouble behind,
And you know that notion just crossed my mind."

There's a total of 6 verses in the song, even one about "River Junction." Interesting.

But you're getting better, Mr. C. I really thought you presented your premise well. Just sort of thought that you attempting to explain your reasoning through the use of an engineering aspect was a bit of a reach. But maybe not.

Anyway, t'was a slow news day and the water tanks are of some interest.

Biker Babe said...

Like, BC, who doesn't know who the Grateful Dead and Jerry Garcia are

just sayin


Curmudgeon said...

Isn't it about time Ogden's business leaders, who seem to think the Mayor is competent at his job, realized just how bad he is at it?

Take the water tanks matter for example. And let's assume, just for the sake of argument, that the Mayor believes that by any objective examination of the evidence, Ogden would be best served by a huge new tank [actually, two of them] in the vicinity of Strong's Canyon at 36th Street.

Assuming that, could he have possibly handled matters worse? First, by fiat, and without notice to the Council, he simply ordered the tank that the Council [and the voters] had approved moved to a different location. [His CAO told the Council Thursday night that his decision was reported in the SE after the fact, and that should have been notice enough for them.]

The Mayor was was finally informed, after the bull dozing had already begun at the 36th Street/Strong's Canyon location, that he'd have to seek approval of the Planning Commission and Council first.

The Council [and public], however, were now alarmed by his arrogant unauthorized dismissal of what they'd approved . Suspicion ran understandably hot that the Mayor's attempting to do this by fiat and without notice until it was [he hoped?] too late, had behind it other private motives [to provide water for the massive development of the east bench he's been pushing for the past six years for his real estate developer cronies, perhaps?]. And now a suspicious Council is demanding answers and looking at whatever comes from Godfrey and Pureheart Patterson [who regularly plays a mindless Charlie McCarthy to Godfrey's Edgar Bergen], his CAO, with skepticism and distrust. Given how the Mayor has handled things, how could they not?

Could Godfrey have bungled it more than he did? Imagine if he'd done it differently --- that he'd done it as any even reasonably competent mayor would have. Imagine if, months ago, before anyone fired up a bulldozer, he'd gone to the Council, and said new engineering reports [copies of which he had for the Council members] indicated that the original approved site of the new tank was not well chosen, that Ogden's water needs would be better served by moving the tank to 36th Street, and that he was asking the Council to examine the new reports, and to support a request he was going to make to the Planning Commission that the tank be moved.

No secret closed door decisions. No Council members and public wondering what the bulldozers were doing chewing up land and trails the Mayor had promised in the election to protect. No Council members having to read the newspaper to find out that what they'd approved had been ignored by the Mayor, without so much as a by your leave. And so the matter considered in an atmosphere of much less suspicion and distrust.

The guy is simply not a very good manager of the city's affairs, and his bumbling ineptitude often makes him his own worst enemy. He never has grasped even the basics of sound urban management. The evidence of that is now so thick upon the ground, it's hard to believe that even the truly clueless [oh, say, the head of the Ogden Weber Chamber of Commerce who led his organization over the cliff on the Mayor's "sell Mt. Ogden park to my developer buddies to partially pay for a flatland tourist gondola ride from downtown to WSU"] should be able to see it.

Do they? Will they?

east bench hiker said...

With all the talk about water tanks at 36th or 46th street, anyone know what is going on with the gravel road that has been put in from the top of 27th that runs south and a little east ending above about 29th? I road had been cut last year and then last fall the road was reseeded. Now just this month the road has been re-cut and gravel/dirt has been put down.

Joe RWS Jones said...

BB-I rather like some of these obsequetice ditties I read on the blog instead of everything being so serious, etc. Some of these on the Liter Side are actually quite fun.

Apparently Bill C doesn't know who the GD and Jerry are, or he'd of given credit where credit's due. And as for Bob Hunter, is Bill C. thinking of Hunter S. Thompson as being the author of those lyrics; or does he think the real Bob Hunter, former Ogden politico and City Manager, who lost to Godfrey in election #1, wrote them? Whatever, still fun to read on a Saturday morning.

Speaking of Hunter, I wonder if things would be any different today had he have won that election? But alas, the voters just wanted "change" and voted in the new guy instead of the old guy, a old stalwart with experience running a city, not experience writing song lyrics.

Go BB....hum a few bars and help Bill C. out some.

RWS Joseph Jones, an old Rock & Roller said...

One other thought, Biker Babe. I was interested in reading about this place called the Keystone Bar in Berkeley (bet you didn't know about that). I'd heard about a place where many of the old San Francisco rock bands performed their music, from Elvin Bishop to Todd Rundgren, to the Airplane and the GD. Guess we now know something that we didn't.

Ah, for the good old days when then conversation was about "Whose your favorite group" instead of water tanks, Letter of Credit and Junctions.

I understand why I'm prone to leaning toward socialism in SOME respects: if things fail, one can blame the government; if not, TURN UP the music!

disgusted said...

east bench hiker

i suspect you are looking at the service road being put in to enable the city to build a water tank up there. the tank is supposed to be 300,000 gallons in size.

just wondering said...

so is Blaine Carl and Joe RWS Jones one the same. sure starting to sound like it to me.

Dan S. said...

east bench hiker,

The new road above 27th is to access the site of yet another new water tank. This will be a much smaller tank (300,000 gallons), and it is apparently intended to provide more pressure to residents who live near the top of 27th. However, it will also provide pressure to a good deal of currently undeveloped land around the mouth of Taylor Canyon and east of the golf course.

The city put in this road last year so they could do some geological studies of the proposed site. The tank site is on private land, but the road actually crosses some National Forest property. City staff claim that they thought the road was on private property, and only discovered afterward that it crosses National Forest land. In any case, the Forest Service has now retroactively granted the city a permit for the road.

Moral of the story: It's easier to get forgiveness than permission.

For an overview of recent and proposed developments on Ogden's east bench, you might want to read this article. The Forest Service decision notice is here.

Bikeer Babe said...

Joe Jones,

Well: Keystone Bar, Grateful Dead, PigPen, Kesey & the Merry Pranksters (Airplane, etc) were a bit before my time, but I read a fun book about them ... and darn it, I wish they (some body) could (would) be able to get hold of some of the thousands of hours of filming they did .... sure would be fun to see

are you on the bus, or off the bus

just sayin


Ah'm Confused said...

'Casey Jones" is definitely an "American legend!"

On the other hand, is the legend about this... or this?

BIG difference!

A'hm Confused

Bill C. said...

BB, maybe you should clue in the schizophenic fool, again he/they, whatever, attempt to come off as if they know something, but again as previously noted, they're wrong.
Giving Hairspray Harmer kudo's for things started well before he was even employed by the City. Giving lying little matty credit for things he had nothing to do with, and now acting as some officionado on the Grateful Dead, and not even knowing who Robert Hunter is. Has this guy ever been right.

Biker Babe said...

BC -- maybe he's just plain off the bus

just sayin


sugar magnolia said...

Bill C glad you responded about the Dead and Robert Hunter. Joe, any real Dead fan knows who the lyricist for the Dead was.

Gracie is slick said...

By the time the tax payers of Ogden get the Godfreyite debt paid off they will all be grateful they are dead.

Bill C. said...

Getting back to the issue, Curm, I like the way you expressed your interpretation of how this administration should have approached this change. You called the mayors supporters stupid in a very polite, non aggressive manner, with the exception being Mr. Hardman, he of course has presented many public displays of utter idiocy.
The problem is dear Curm, your hypothetical wouldn't work for this dishonest administration, nothing supports what they've done. We all witnessed this at the meeting.
The approach used with road on 27th was the intention, they were hoping to be so far along that all they would do is say I'm sorry, but look at the great potential we now have. The truely sad thing is the last City engineer will not be available for at least another year, and he represents the only hope of getting to the truth of how all this came to be. Funny how his disappearance was timed so perfectly with this fiasco.
Just think about if it had of worked, a nice clean vacant large footprint for the gondola hotel with an access road onto peterson's property and millions of gallons of stored water, right on sight. Brilliant!!!!

Curmudgeon said...


That was pretty much my point. If the Mayor believes the engineering requires the tank to be moved, he handled the matter incompetently. His only defense against the charge of incompetent bungling is that he had other motives that made getting the tank moved and construction under way before the Council and public noticed critical. In other words, duplicity to serve ends other than the announced ones. And of course his only defense against the charge of duplicity is... incompetence.

And the beat goes on....

ozboy said...

Mr. Curmudgeon

I don't see this as a one way or the other kinda deal. Godfrey is both duplicitous and incompetent in almost every thing he does.

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