There was a flyer circulated within this morning's Standard-Examiner, announcing an event this coming Monday in Ogden at 7:00 p.m. in the Union station lobby. According to the sponsor, Citizens Concerned for Ogden's Future, there will be a featured speaker, Howard Blackson III, a "renowned, respected urban designer," who will offer a presentation during which he will explain to all in attendance "why Mayor G's plan won't work," and "what will revitalize Ogden."
This is sheer speculation on my part, but I'd be willing to bet that this CCFOF "group" is the same batch of knights errant who got blown out of federal court yesterday, when they were hiding behind another concerned citizen acronym, CBCFOF, or something very similar.
Both the mode and timing of this presentation are also somewhat odd. If indeed this mysterious presentation includes an alternate plan for the old downtown mall site, why didn't these CCFOF people schedule this public sideshow earlier in the decision process? The Recreation Center process has been ongoing for years now. Why are they scheduling it now, on the very eve of the city council vote on the Rec Center bonding? The bonding's all but a done deal now. If these people had an alternate plan, why are they now bringing it up at the eleventh hour? Morever, why didn't they request that this presentation be calendered as a regular agenda item for consideration at Tuesday night's city council meeting, so that it could be heard by both Ogden's city's citizens and her government officials alike?
I did a quick internet search, and relevant web reference to Mr. Blackson came up as follows: Google -- 2; Yahoo -- 3; and AlltheWeb (my favorite search engine, by the way) -- 3. That's not an impressive number of hits, in my view, for a prominent figure in the flourishing urban design industry, but he may very well be an "up and comer." Mr. Blackson's own website does list some notable accomplishments, so I suppose there's actually no reason to question his professional competence.
I do wonder, however, how much research and effort Mr. Blackson may have expended so far. The cynic in me suggests that this is a last-minute situation. As you'll recall from yesterday's Scott Schwebke article, our little band of Don Quixotes dragged that unfortunate Salt Lake City attorney, Maxwell Miller, into their federal court action on short notice, to be pummeled about the head and shoulders by Judge Stewart and opposing counsel yesterday. I do hope he was well-paid for the embarrassment. Mr. Blackson's "presentation" smacks of the same thing, of course.
This raises a few further questions: Who's picking up the tab for this event? Is Mr. Blackman actually being financially compensated for his airfare and overnight accomodations; or is he arriving here at his own expense, in the expectation that he'll be able charm the local citizens into retaining his firm to re-design our old mall site? Have our lumpencitizen-activist crybabies fully informed him that his presentation will occur the very night before the Ogden city council is expected to rubber-stamp the current proposal? Does he understand the political position of the people he's dealing with?
So many questions...so few answers.
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15 comments:
To me, it seems like they are almost trying to run their own type of dissident city government. Sadly, however, not many people are listening. Kudos to them for trying every little thing possible to stop the rec. center, and kudos to them for not appealing the court decision. We have been asking them for months now to present viable alternatives and this may just be it. But again, sadly, it is too little too late. They should have done this at the start of their petition drive, not on the eve of the vote. After Tuesday hopefully we will have a construction start date and we can get on with this!
Utmormon, your wishes will come true on Tuesday. There's not a snowball's chance in hell that the vote won't go the way that the Mayor and Safsten wants it to....the bond will be passed and issued if the bank goes for the viability of Fat Cats and Gold's Gym. You'll have your construction start date. And, we'll get on with it.
But, what is it they say: "Be careful what you wish for, for you just might get it. The whole thing seems so easy, so well laid out by the Gang of 6....the city and taxpayers will not be encumbered by this whole affair; no tax dollars will be used; the rec center will become a Regional draw and "put Ogden on the map;" the City will have NO liability in the event that anything goes wrong. My goodness, what a state of Utopia they (Gang of 6) have promised. Everything will be free and the outcome will be nothing but positive....a can't miss deal.
Hmmmm.
Seeing is believing. My thoughts are that NO kudos should be awarded to this CBCOF bunch. Just a loose cannon on the deck.
So, sit back and enjoy, Utmormon, for your wishes will come true. Just remember, be careful what you wish for....
I give kudos for a good fight. You know, it's kind of like two men getting in a fist fight and then helping each other up and getting on with life. I, however, don't think this has been easy. The mall project has faced pretty much every hurdle that could be faced; the only think more would be an appeal in the CBCOF lawsuit.
We all need to be careful what we wish for, but what we all wish for is actually a better Ogden. Like I said in another thread, many of us have watched our beloved city bleed to death in front of us. Something has to be done and without any other viable options, this is what I will support. We all know that we can't just sit around for another three years with a giant hole in the middle of downtown. In that that same thread I asked for what other ideas there were for the mall project. Unless something has changed recently, there are no ideas posted there, so again, this is what I will support.
Just a thought or two, Utmormon, and what kind of name is that, anyway? OK, two men in a fight: you think that the way the CBCOF had handled its end like a man? Hey, they didn't even turn in the petitions. Then filed a time and money wasting frivolous lawsuit that was basically laughed out of court. They're lucky they didn't get slapped with contempt.
Now, the big hole: who'se fault is that? How did it get there? How's it going to be filled? Any idea of how much money has been expended to date, on the "big hole?" MILLIONS!!!! And now they plan to fill the big hole with a climbing wall, if the CBCOF allows it. Uh huh!
Your choice of words, "many of us have wtached our city bleed to death in front of us." What a great legacy: watching YOUR city bleed to death. Where were you when the wound opened? Why wait until now to put a band-aid on an open wound?
Who are you people?
enthused,
First off, it's utmorMAN, if you like to critisize it then do it; but spell it right.
Second, I know they have not faught in a fair manner. Maybe we should call it a bar fight instead. we can get up and buy each other a drink (I'll have caffene free Coke, thank you). A saying that I have tried to incorporate into my life is this: "Just because you are on seperate sides of the issue, that doesn't mean that you have to be on seperate sides."
Third, where was I? When this city STARTED to bleed, I was probably in my mother's womb. I grew up hearing stories of the "golden years" of Ogden. When I was old enough to realize that I loved Ogden and what had happened to it, I decided it was time to be part of the solution and not part of the problem.
Fourth, I said OUR, not MY city.
Fifth, the decisions regarding the "hole" that now is our mall were actually made before my time on Earth. So to me, it is not whether the right decision was or was not made, it is what do we do now. What's done thirty years ago is done. I believe that we need to learn from the past and learn what we can do to improve upon it.
In regards to my legacy: my family's legacy in this city in the past century has been pretty big and important to me, that is why I post messages here and do what I can in the city: because I care.
Maybe you will have some of your questions answered if you go listen to what this guy has to say.
As for the recreation center project going on for years now, I'm not so sure that is a true reflection of how this thing has come to be. The whole mall mess has been going on for years for sure, but it is only very recently that the public has become aware that the city is going to take a huge twenty million dollar flyer on the Rec thing.
The sad part is that the vast majority of Ogden folks won't go to the rec center or won't be able to afford it if they did want to go. It is definately going to be meant as a place for upscale people with lots of cash to go.
The little big guy on 9 has been telling us that people by the thousands have been giving input for years now, and this is what they want. He says they all have indicated they want a "recreation" element to the new development. Well this is a big distortion if you ask me.
Even if a few people or even a hundred said they wanted a recreation element to the new develpment, that does not mean that the citizenry of Ogden has come forth in mass and endorsed the idea of spending ninteen million dollars of public money to build a "high tech rec center" for a couple of private citizens who are not gambling anything of their own on the deal, and for the citizens of Ogden to end up with an expensive private playland that most can't afford or are not interested in.
As for the city voting on this tuesday, I doubt it. I think they will put off the vote again for a future session. The reality of it may be sinking in with these lemmings of the mayors. The next vote on bond approval is the point of no return and there is three vulnerable seats up for election in November. Yorgensen and Burdett have to be especially aware of this and nervous.
It's interesting also that we still haven't seen the news about Larry Miller and Boyer signing on the dotted line. Would this council be so lame as to commit ninteen million bucks on a deal that was predicated on two big players signing up, before those players did in fact sign up? The sad answer of course is probably so.
An elementary question for any council member with an ounce of sense would be: What happens if we spend ninteen million dollars of our constituents money on this deal and Larry and Boyer didn't keep their "promise" to join the party? Hey folks, talk is cheap, that is why there is so much of it. And yes, even guys like Miller and Boyer dish out their share of talk about projects that never happen.
To enthused citizen I would say that the viability of golds and fats is not a factor. If it were this deal would not fly. They are clearly not financially capable of swinging this deal. Wells Fargo will do this deal because their down side is covered by the tax increment from the ten other RDA projects that were thrown into the pot by the city. NOBODY in the city scheme gives a damn if fats and golds folds up. The motive is to use them as bait to get the whole mall done. It is this cities version of the hail mary pass!
As to the tax payers not being on the hook for this thing - I say that it the biggest bull shit in the whole scheme. The tax payers are going to take it in the shorts on this mall situation if the whole grand scheme as designed and executed by the big guy on nine doesn't go precisely as planned.
Given his track record so far I would say that is a stretch of the imagination. It is a bush league plan in the hands of a bush league gang of wanna be developers. There is not one of this gang that has any track record of success in business of any kind let alone mega million dollar development. They have built a house of cards and a strong wind cannot be far in the future.
The good news is that Ogden will survive this. Our great town has survived a number of scandals and inept administrations in the past and will no doubt face many more in the future. Politics always draws in a bunch of scoundrels that create expensive boondogles that the citizens have to pay off. This is nothing new and it isn't the end of Oz. The good people always outlast the little back room operators and pettifoggers.
Utmorman, regardless of how you spell your name, it has the same,"non-caffein" conotation. Just curious and my questions has been answered. Bar fight? Interesting analogy.
I quoted you accurately. It was after the quote that I slipped in YOUR, not MY, which is how your position washed out with the wording you chose. And that's OK, but why take credit for all the watching if you were "in the womb," so to speak.
And now, to "the hole," your term and I like it. It's a drain hole, draining the financial and economic life out of downtown Ogden while impeeding (sp?) progress. Anyway, as Ozboy asks: where the hell is Miller and where's Boyer? I've neither read nor seen anything resembling a written agreement, and many have asked the Mayor and his cronies (5 of the 7) for a visual on the Contract. Let's see him stand up with the proof that if he builds his rec. center, many will come. And Ozboy, you have hit the nail on the head, as the viability of Fats and Golds is basically meaningless in the big picture. Sacrificial lambs. My point was that if the rec. center was all that the Gang of 7 has trumped it up to be, then the viability of those chosen to run that show would certainly be an issue. But with the City backing this affair through the pledge of tax increments, why wouldn't the bonders and bankers roll the loan? Hell, they'll wind up owning the WHOLE place for only HALF the risk. Good business on their part, the viability and solvency of Fats and Golds be damned.
As it's been said in some posts, a house of cards is been contructed and if EVERYTHING doesn't go as expected, we, the people, will most likely be left holding the bag and trying to figure out what to do with an empty, 80 foot high building that, in all reality, can't be used for anything but what it was designed for, unless a MAJOR retrofitting were to take place. And the monies for that have been pledged to re-pay the Woodbury lawsuit money.
I wonder if Jorgensen will help to "educate" us on financing projects etc., the way he is planning to "educate" the Legislature on eminent domain. Give me a sense of comfort.
I find many of your comments fascinating. It seems that many of you are quick to jump down the throat of Mayor Godfrey and the City Council. Yet, as has been said many times before- No one has a better idea!
We complain because there's a city block with dirt being pushed back and forth, but nothing else happening. Then in the same breath we are complaining because somebody wants to do something with that dirt mound. Fer cryin' out loud. We'd have had something there by now if people just had a little bit of faith!!
It seems to me that one of the greatest problems facing this city is that many citizens are so hurt by what has "failed" (the old mall, Fred Myer leaving, etc.) we are afraid to take a step into the unknown.
There are cities all around the Wasatch front takings risks everyday, the thing keeping them afloat is that either 1) their obstuctionist citizens aren't loud enough, or 2) their city council won't even give them the time of day, let alone a chance to voice concerns.
Some complain that our council is not listening... They are listening to everyone's drivel enough that they have allowed these stall tactics to drag on for years. Enough stalling- move forward.
In the amount of time it has taken us to argue this mall site, two cities have created cutting edge aquatic facilities, one city, er county has created a conference center, and another city has drawn at least two major businesses from Ogden. If we are concerned that no one will come here, it won't be because of lack of interest, it will be because their cities will have already built the attractive venues!
If you won't use the rec center, fine, but THAT'S NOT THE ONLY THING PLANNED FOR THE SITE! It's just the catalyst. Boyer has sent the mayor's office a press release stating that if the rec center did not go in, they would have no interest in developing anything viable in downtown. Sounds to me like their interested, Ozboy.
One thing that upsets me more than the issue itself is the lack of interest in the whole shooting match south of the Weber County line (more proof that we really need something to garner attention). Here is a major deal for Ogden in the works tonight and all the "local" news media (TV & radio) talks about is the Cedar Hills "election". Talk about getting the shaft.
Oh, and Mr. Glassmann... You made the comment that you would have liked someone at the "rally" last night representing the Rec Center. If you were there last night how is it that you didn't seem what rudizink noticed-
"Things picked up considerably in the final "audience participation" segment though. First to the microphone was Descente N.A.'s corporate Vice president, Curt Geiger. Mr. Geiger spoke for about ten minutes, and offered an articulate and passionate explanation of why his company had chosen Ogden, Utah as its new North American headquarters, when other more seemingly prestigious cities might have been selected instead. "'Americana' and proximitely to the ski slopes" was his story in a nutshell. He also gave Mayor Godfrey profuse credit for his company's arrival in town. "More ski industry companies will also come here," he predicted.
The comments session moved forward from there, with other pro-development citizens speaking in their turn, both at the microphone, and from the body of the audience. Notable among those was Gary Nielsen, of Gold's Gym. He grabbbed the mike and also spoke articulately and passionately. He complained that nobody from the CCFOF group had ever contacted him or his venture co-partners (Fat Cats) about their financial capacity to proceed with the Rec Center project, or about the project's financial viability, either. He pointed out that the terms of the Ogden lease were similar to, and typical of, other leases he has for other facilities, and criticized the people who are getting in the way of the deal he's made with Ogden City"
Sounds like the rec center AND Ogden's interests were well represented. Just because the Mayor himself didn't "grace" everyone with his presence- keep in mind that despite the rhetoric that Sharon Beech and Mitch Moyes keep (to use Sharon's words) cramming down our throats, this isn't just the mayor and council's baby, there are other interested parties as evidenced last night without any "official" appearances necessary.
I confirmed this morning with "Mavis" of the city council offices that the bond vote previously scheduled for tonight's city council meeting has been taken off calender, due to a delay in the drafting of necessary supporting documents.
No new date has been set.
I've also confirmed this with a high-level member of the Mayor's administration.
To hear a recorded message setting forth tonight's council agenda, dial the City Council Agenda Hotline: 629-8159.
I would like to address Bill Glassman's comment with my own opinions:
Gary Nielsen was indeed there, all 250 lbs of rompin stompin "HEALTH CLUB" ownin pounds of out of shape lard. How could any one miss him, he cast a shadow. This guy owns a gym? Ogden is going to hang it's future on this guy successfully running, against all logic and odds, the mother of all gyms?
"Alice! I think we have fallen down the rabbit hole!"
This incidently is the same Gary Nielsen that was in the news several times several years ago pissin and moanin about governments subsidizing private gyms! He cried a pretty big sob story about how fundamentaly unfair it was for the government to use tax payer money to build gyms and compete against private enterprise!! Seems like he has learned the old "let the government build it for you" game as some sort of official in Plain City? Look it up, it makes for some facinating reading considering the song the fat man is singing today!
The reason city hall had no personal representation at Union Station is the same reason that they sit there with glassy eyes when the public is telling them what they think at those so called public input sessions. The bottom line is that they just don't give a rat's ass what the public thinks. This is a Republik, as the big man keeps reminding us, they are elected to do the citizens biz, and they are devinely inspired leaders under God and we the public should shut the heck up and sustain them like we have been trained to do all our obediant lives.
The mayor's plan is not the problem! Most any legit urban planner probably would give it blessings considering where things are at in Ogden. The problem is who is doing the plan and more importantly who is going to pay for the plan. The plan is the product of the same people that created the problem. Classically the people that solve the problem are not the same ones that created it. This only happens in government when there is not a strong two party system. The plan incidently is not creatively from this crew, but one lifted in a lot of significant details from the Gateway in SLC - a project Stuart Reed was involved with to some extent. It would be interesting to see how close the real plans really are, and how much money it costs the tax payers of Ogden to acquire them?
It is curious that the council and mayor say's they didn't know about Mitch's meeting! Do they take the paper? Do they have friends and relatives that read the paper? Is their intelligence on what's happenin in Oz that poor? Are they clueless? Are they above the hoi poloi and what we are thinking? Do they pay so little attention to Union Station that they don't know when their opposition is holding a well publicised meeting in the main hall? Did poor Mitch forget to invite them?? Yikes! You don't think Mitch would forget to invite those he most wants to have love him, do you? (Poor Mitch, he did look like a flustered chicken running arounc in circles)
I do think the Mayor and Council are right in saying they did do a lot of advertising and publicity two or three years ago, including a bill board on Washington. They did probably have a number of public meetings and input. AND, they probably did have people telling them that they would like to see a "Recreation" element to the new mall development.
HOWEVER, that does not translate into what they are trying to do now with this "High Teck Wreck" deal. For starters, most people who expressed interest in a recreation element were most likely talking about a protected walking route. That was the old mall's most popular feature where the old folks would meet up down there and do their power walking, talking browsing deal.
I challenge the administration to show any minutes and records where people two or three years ago were asking for or being told about this Twenty Million Dollar High Tech boon dogle that only the rich will be able to visit. It is a huge stretch for the mayor to go from some public interest in a recreation element to this ridiculous give away of millions and millions of public money to private individuals. Make no mistake about it, this is the Mayor's immaculate conception baby, we the public did not contribute our DNA to this ugly child in spite of the Mayor's attempts to pin paternity on us.
The plan could work in competent hands.
It is not in competent hands.
IF IT WILL MAKE A PROFIT, PRIVATE ENTERPRISE WILL DO IT!!! It's called the "AMERICAN" way, something these sniveling little wanna bee's fluttering around city hall are clueless about.
I think the biggest question coming out of this little circus that Mitch held the other night is: What about this twenty million dollar loan the city is proposing to consolidate and clean up the Woodbury and Army mess? Is it really going to be a debt of the city and not the RDA as Mitch implied? If so, that could be a huge bomb shell in that the Mayor and Council have been reciting - as holy scripture - that the tax payers are never going to be on the hook for any of this Mall redevelopment. If the city (general fund) borrows this money then it does become a direct burden on the tax payers of Ogden city. So why don't you spend some of your considerable time, money and talent on uncovering this one Rudy?
I tend to believe that it would have been highly inelegant of the Ogden city government, Mr. Glassman, to have sent official delegates to last Monday's "CCFOF pep rally." It was clearly billed as a partisan event; and it plainly was neither intended nor conducted as a neutral proceeding. To have had government officials show up and "crash the party" in their official capacity, uninvited, would have been a serious breach of ettiquette, and would have opened them up to charges that they'd attempted to disrupt the event.
The more important unanswered question, in my opinion, is why these CCFOF folks didn't formally apply to have it put on the council calender as a scheduled agenda item. Issue advocates do this all the time. There's an established procedure for doing this, and there's absolutely no evidence that the CCOF people ever tried that.
And the additional question remains unanswered, in my view, as to why these people haven't brought forth their urban planning "expert" much earlier in the process.
Certainly there are questions that still need to be answered concerning the downtown Sports Center project. It's my opinion, however, that last Monday's meeting was neither an appropriate nor a proper venue to do that.
Well Rudy you have once again demonstrated that you deserve your exalted position in the pecker head parade. Your reasoning on why the gang of six should not have attended Mitch's little circus of the absurd was as clueless as the Mayor's PR advisors.
Any politician worth a bucket of warm spit* would be keeping his finger on the pulse of the public. These weinies were not absent because of protocol or political correctness. They didn't show up cause they are arrogant SOB's and they don't give a squat about the public or what we are thinking.
* Thanks to John Nance Garner
I can reel off a long list of reasons, Viktor, why it was a lot smarter, politically for our local city government to have ignored last Monday night's clown-fest, as they did.
I've alread mentioned ettiquette (which you've correctly identified to be synonymous with protocol.) This was sufficient reason, in my view, even though you don't seem to think it's important. I also mentioned the danger of being accused of disruptive conduct (or intimidation.)
There are numerous other reasons that Ogden city government should have "ignored" this event, as it properly did.
First among these is simple gamesmanship -- to have publicly have attnded this event would have been to loan official legitimacy to this clique of Don Quixote clowns. You labeled it a "circus of the absurd" yourself, and I ask you what benefit official attendance at this event would have been gained? If you're honest about it you'll admit that non-attendance was by far the best political tactic.
And while we're talking tactics and gamesmanship, what benfit could have been gained by going into a predictably raucus event? If you're going to a gang-fight, it's not a very good idea to wander in outnumbered on enemy turf, is it?
And you still haven't answered my two unanswered questions, viz: 1) Why didn't these CCFOF nitwits bring their "expert" to a formally-noticed City Council meeting; and, 2) Why are they entering the fray with this supposed "alternate plan" so late in the process?
They want to build a railroad museum, ferchripesake. Railroad museums are great, BTW. I've visited the awesome one in "Old Town" Sacramento. It's a great one fershure. The question is: How many more of those does this nation need? It seems to me that the City of Sacramento has this niche well-covered.
I'm happy to hear that they have a computer available for you, and the rest of the folks over there at the rest home.
Keep on posting, and keep on coming back.
It sounds like we're going to have to agree to disagree, Bill (and Viktor.)
As I said before, official attendance at this unofficial partisan function was neither appropriate, necessary or politically smart, in my not so humble view. That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.
And If local officials officially attend one crackpot promoter's "event," they'd be criticized for failing to attend all the others. It's a slippery slope that would become hopelessly unmanagable. Much better to observe the formalities, and conduct government business in a formal government setting, like a city council meeting, with all officials in attendance, I think.
This raises again the question of course: why they didn't just follow proper procedure and set the damned presentation for the next night's council meeting? If these narcissistic cretins really wanted to put forth some "alternate" plan, why didn't they just request that the matter be put on the city council agenda? Other people do that all the time. Why can't they? It seems like a "no-brainer" to me. Of course these people have clearly demonstrated over time that they're not exactly rocket scientists. I find it curious too, that I seem to be the only one interested in this question.
And what makes you think that the administration didn't have an agent or two quietly sitting in the audience with their eyes and ears open, and their notebooks readily at hand? I don't know one way ot the other whether they had people in the audience listening; but I'd be quite surprised if they didn't.
And to the extent that the eccentric Mr. Moyes and Ms. Beech are in any way representative of the "public pulse," I'll bet dollars to donuts somebody was there by proxy, taking careful notes.
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