As most regular Weber County Forum readers know, it's my pet theory that Snow Basin "ski mogul" Earl Holding (or his Sinclair Oil trustee) is the "secret" money pushing the ongoing gondola projects discussion here in Ogden. He's the Lift Ogden "go-to-guy," who can pay for the whole shebang out of "walking-around-money," five-star hotel included, if the LO plan to continue "fishing" for public money ultimately fails -- at least that's my theory.
Being the "curious" type, I googled a little bit until I came up with this excellent 2002 Ski Magazine interview . It's my impression that Mr. Holding has never been exactly the sort of fellow who gets up and bares his soul at "testimony meetings," religious revivals or even the local coffee shop; so I found the information in this seemingly candid and forthright interview quite revealing.
There's been a lot of local talk about the Lift Ogden folks playing it a little "too close to the vest," and being too "stingy" with the facts.
Perhaps these folks are merely following the guidance of the seemingly paranoid moneyman.
He's been "screwed over" a lot -- at least from his perspective. And he's right, assuming he's telling the truth in this remarkable interview.
I'll just invoke the old folk axiom and say, "Just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
Particularly attentive readers will also note I've had this interview in the sidebar for about 48 hours. Read the sidebar, folks. It changes almost every day.
It's a slow news day though, so I thought I'd invite some comments.
I think Earl Holding may have a legitimate point... assuming he's the money guy.
And NO! This is not the Weber County Pro-Gondola Blog! We have NO ax to grind on this. We want the truth to come out, and the cream of the discussion to come out on top, as it usually does in the marketplace of ideas..
And some people think Ogden is boring! HAHAHA!
And what think our gentle readers about all this?
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16 comments:
Great article on a great man. Unfortunately I couldn't find a word in either long piece that told the story of how the son in law was responsible for the whole thing as represented by the gondolists of Ogden.
I wonder, in that Holding has already "captured" his ski audience with a five minute ride from SLX to Little America and then onto Snow Basin via Trapper's Loop, if he would want to invest another $200,000,000 in a hotle in downtown Ogden. SLC is loaded with things to do (Jazz games, U of U sports, winners all, Ballet West, RDT, opera, some REALLY fine restuarants, culture, BIG business, the list goes on) while Ogden has Roosters and pigeon shit under foot and is in the "pioneering stage."
I doubt that a ride on a gondola, over scenic 23rd Street to some unknown destination, is enough to make Holding decide that he should compete with himself with an investment in Ogden when he already owns the show with his hotel in Salt Lake City? He's a cagey guy though, and one look at the road to Snow Basin, paid for by the government, says much. But given his health and the reality of the situation, I'd be surprised if the money man was Holding. Once things are up and running here, it wouldn't be much of a leap for him to make the final tie-in to his resort. After all, the work and expenses will already have been met.
That's a very nice analysis, alucard; it's the best counter-argument that I've heard to my pet theory so far, in fact.
It may be indeed true that Mr. Holding is satisfied with the present the Grand America-Snow Basin hookup, and would thus have no interest in being involved in a second scheme which would amount to a duplication of effort at the very least.
Moreover, it might actually explain Mr. Holding's demonstrated indifference (some would call it anitipathy) to a separate setup which would deliver skiiers to Snow Basin via a gondola, from downtown hotel(s) in Ogden.
I'll go on to say that I've heard, (via two separate local rumor mill sources,) the names of two other formidible hoteliers, who've purportedly expressed strong interest in a hotel-up mountain project such as is being promoted by the Lift Ogden folks, and others.
It's a truly fascinating fact scenario, which is made all the more intriguing, by the cloud of cloak-and-dagger secrecy which obscures the discussion.
Thanks for your astute observations.
When the son-in-law's wife gets hold of the big bucks she might give him a big enough allowance that he can build his own ego monument to top that of the departed daddy. What loyal wife wouldn't?
It is extremely unlikely that Mr. Holding is calling the shots any more, so any number of dumb things could happen.
The rumour mill tells us that Chris P. and his wife are not exactly what you'd call "amicable" these days. But nothings forever, things change, and this is just a rumour. Interesting the silence, though. It's almost deafening.
Thanks for your words, Rudi; I wondered how my hypothesis would be received. Fascinating possibilites. Now, bewteen Holding's "wealth," "stelath," and "health," (fun little play on words, eh), as dear Bonnie Lee says, "any number of dumb (like in fox?) things can happen."
Ogden Haters!
You people make me laugh, finally some vision and creativity come to this town and you can't handle it because it was not your idea! Get over it. Answer this question for me. Why are all the resturants in Layton packed on the weekends while Ogdens 25th street has a few people walking around? I am sure your first thought is to blame the Mayor some way. Please take some responsibility.
We need a reason for people to come here. Lets give them one.
P.S. Why are all the posts mad at people with money??
The restaurants in Layton are always crowded because ot the gondola out there! Aint you ridden it yet? Why else would every body go there to eat, and why else would the big assed ski convention go there instead of Emerald City? Their high tech Rec center is also a huge draw of course.
We all hate people with money because we aint got none!
Anonymous, Bernie, all of you people who hate us people who aren't standing on our heads over the gondola. What the hell's the matter wit-cha? What is this obbsession that the gondola will "cure it all?" Whenever you rant and rave about other towns being packed with fun seekers, you blame it on us, because we don't like the gondola. Yet, as Ozboy so aptly points out, THERE AIN'T NONE IN LAYTON, RIVERDALE, or SLC people. And yet, those towns are bustling.
We do not hate Ogden, we're only realists. Where do you get these idiotic ideas that the gondola, and only the gondola, will save the town? Are you a little touched in the head?
Ogden has a history of not supporting things. Just look at the college. When the Dee Center was first built, you couldn't get a seat to watch a game. Now, a big turnout is 4-5 thousand, leaving only 7-8 thousand empty seats. Football games are the same. The Farmer's Mkt is a going concern, for the first few weeks, then it slowly drifts into a slow death as it plods along toward the Fall closing.
And it's all because Ogden hasn't built the GONDOLA.
What a pack of idiots!
Alright Bud and Oz Boy, you are full of criticism but have no answers. People like you love to sit back and say "I told you so" but contribute nothing in solving the problem. The reason Layton has a booming restaurant business is because they built it and ignored naysayer like yourselves. Bud, you are right, Weber State has struggled with attendance but mostly because of poor marketing and people, like yourself, who went to the first game after the Dee Events Center was built but failed to return so they could sit back and say "I told you so". Have you ever been to a Raptors game?? The seats are packed. What will happen when there is a commuter rail stop in Ogden? Is it possible to draw people up from Davis county? If the mall site provides stores and attractions that people want and it is marketed correctly then you will see this town turn around, but, please stay at home just incase you might get that chance to say "I told you so".
P.S. Ain't ain't a word.
"P.S. Ain't ain't a word."
It ain't?
Read this, you old fuddy-duddy.
Folks like Anonymous ain't got no brains. they believe most anythin some smooth talkin politicians and hustlers tell em.
Facts be that some of these so called nay sayers on this blog got more dough and pay more into the system than all the ra-ra crowd put together. That includes the big talkers from the so called 700 million dollar company they brought to town and the company itself. Bottom line they are awful fast to want to spend the tax payers money on a bunch of bull shit toys, but most of them don't pay anythng in to the system. Basically a bunch of free loaders.
"The reason Layton has a booming restuarant business is because they built it." You try to come across as knowing do damn much it's amazing you don't connect the dots, "anonymous." Let's see, "they built it," right? So, aren't the restuarants on 25th built? Just like in Layton, Ogden has restuarants that are constructed, up and running, occupying space, serving food. That being the case, why does Layton have more business? Your analogy is about as lame as they come, pal.
Let's see, the Dee Center....10 years of Season tickets for me. What about you? Who the hell are you to say that I went to the first game and then stayed away and said, "I told you so." Also took my employees to many games, all the NCAA's, Conference play-offs, the works. If anyone knew how to market, it was Gary Crompton, so you missed that one with your "great assumption" portion.
Raptor games....gone to 'em every year since they've been here, beginning at Serg P. Simons Field down by "Hobo Jungle;" ticket holders for the last two years, taken in the games quite regularly, actually....even buy a beer or two. What about your record, Mr. Big Time Fan?
What about commuter rail? You really think that people in SLC and Layton are holding their breaths, waiting for that thing to go on-line so they can hop on, come here and eat at the Bistro? Maybe it'll attract some students, but without the gondola it won't be much.
So, who is it that's lining up to put in all these "stores" and "shops" and "restaurants" other "attractions," and all those other buzz words that you clowns toss around? You got any cajones, pal? Put your mopney where your mouth is and open a spot. Buy a chunk of mall dirt and build something. Private enterprise is the answer, or do you think it's the Mayor, the same guy who has indebted the City to the tune of 70-90 million dollars, with support of most of the city council, and his grand ideas? The Mayor, a guy owns a few "rentals." will deliver us because he now thinks he's a hot-shot developer? He's no big time player; a million guys own a "few rentals." So friggin what?
People like you make me laugh. You don't even know me, have no idea what I've done, where I live, yet you presume and assume so much. Remember, "he who assumes, looses." YOU, Mr. know-it-all-but-really-knows-so-little, should commit that small pearl of wisdom to memory, if you can retain that many words.
Seems like this Bud Grant put "anonymous" in his place. There "anonymous" went, challenging, railing away, questioning, making assumptions, and old Bud Grant slapped him right in the chops, enough so that there was no response from "anonymous." That sage, old adage of "be careful what you ask for, you just might get it," sure came to play here, didn't it?
I'm very curious of why the "gondola," of all things, seems to be THE hot button issue in this campaign (after all, it's but a mere concept, no plan, few answers, mired in speculation and years away from becoming reality). I get the feeling that a candidate's fortunes rise or fall, depending on the candidate's position, on the gondola. And the table is full of so many current issues, issues that tremendously effect the City RIGHT NOW, that have seemingly been pushed back by the gondola. Is it "timing," by the Gang of Six? I find it interesting that Bill Cook and others, claim that timing, due to the election, is not and never has been, "a filter."
But what about the "Wreck Center," and the fact that Ogden's financial future is now dependent on the operators of Fatz and Golds. Every cent of TIF and BDO income, that comes into the city coffers, is now tied to the performance of the Wreck Center. If it fails, those dollars will not come our way, they will go to pay off the "lenders," for the next 20+ years. About the only way out is bankruptcy, but I'm not sure if Ogden City could file bankruptcy, as it has that income source (TIF and BDO). But, as others have so aptly pointed out, Wells Fargo could opt to "own" downtown Ogden for 50 cents on the dollar, and settle for the property rather than the 20 year payment plan. I think the are smiling in their corporate offices. Our young and overly ambitious Mayor has been taught a lesson, I'm afraid. But why should he worry? It's not his money he's rolling the dice on, it's ours.
A very scarry scenario, I think. If the Wreck Center fails, we loose all of the above mentioned revenue. That being said, how does the City replace that revenue, which is so direly needed? A big old TAX INCREASE, some USER FEES, a bunch of ASSESSMENTS, that's how.
Ah, the Mayor and his five cronies on the City Council, are bending over backwards for the citizens of Ogden. This deal absolutely stiffles the imagination. The consequences can be totally disastrous. And on the other side of this coin, if, and pray that this HAPPENS, the Wreck Center is a success, all Ogden gets from that success is "off the financial hook" and a gym/bowling alley where you can go to see all of the people from Preston and SLC who have been drawn to town by the "regional draw." But any and all profits, unless there's a little "share the wealth" clause tucked away somewhere in the agreements between Ogden City and Fatz/Golds, will go to Fats/Golds. Ain't that a big kick in the pants? Here we are, funding this mad, ego-driven scheme of the Mayor's, risking our very financial future, and if it works we don't even get to share in any positive financial rewards.
Does this "Gang of Six" (and regardless what they say in the media, the 5 council members, who when added to the Mayor form this tight knit little group, will vote with the Mayor on this idiocy) know how to "serve the public" or what? They most certainly have not put our best interests at the front with this deal. They were elected to serve and in this case they are serving themsleves, not the people.
Perhaps there's some potential in this idea, but the way they've gone about it can only give one pause to wonder who it is the Gang of Six thinks they're serving.
Bud, please you are making me laugh so hard. You have only proved my point. YOU HAVE NO ANSWERS! Not only that but you have shown that the activities that are offered in Ogden appeal to you. Then why not others?? Again marketing has a lot to do with it. (Stop making this so easy for me) Restaurants with nationally recognized names are more popular. When is the last time you watched an ad on TV for the Bistro (my favorite Ogden restaurant). Brand recognition is a basic principle in marketing that you have failed to understand (did you go to college?). I go to SLC to shop because of the options available to me there. If I had that here in Ogden then I would stay here. The Newgate Mall is lacking in this area as well. Are you with me still or am moving to fast?
Yes, I support the Mayor and it is because of this one fact, that he runs the city like a business not some bureaucratic dinosaur moving at a snails pace which we have endured enough of. And no, I don't know you, but a wise man once said that if you want to get to know someone just listen to them a while. Well Bud I have heard enough from you. I gather what kind of person you are and I have no time for barking dogs. So how about in your next post you create some answers instead of making excuses why Ogden will never be great.
P.S. If you need a marketing consultant for your business just give me a call.
Anonymous, whoever the hell you are, you don't even know when a guy's pulling your chain. Of all of them, you seem to be the weak link in that chain, rising to the bait like you do.
The Mayor "runs the city like a business." And you support him for that. Gee-zust Jones, fool, he's run the town into a 76 million dollar debt, and you say that that's running the town like a business? I can just imagine what kind of business you'd run, but you have no dough, no balls, and no business, so the point is moot.
Marketing consultant? You? Don't make me laugh. From the way you rationalize your lame-assed posts, totally miss the meaning of mine and others, and your supporting the Mayor because he's no bureaucrat, it's quite obvious you have no skills whatsoever, in either marketing or sensibility.
Mine isn't to give YOU answers; mine was to point out the idiocy of your questions regarding Layton and Ogden. The Bistro? Tongue in cheek example....aw, to hell with it. Guys like you, who have no idea about whom you're trying to debate, are a friggin dime a dozen and I've better things to do than hold discourse with someone who'se several bricks short of a full load. You don't even know what it is you're raving about....Brand names and marketing, the Bistro, going to SLC to shop, did I go to college, excuses why Ogden will never been great.
The reason Ogden will never be great is because of guys like you
who think they write cool, intelligent stuff but loose themselves in the basics of the craft.
What's the deal anonymous? Did someone appoint you to give us a quiz on why Ogden is Ogden?
You ask and answer your own questions and wonder why nobody gets where you're going or why you're going there, except for your going to "shop" in SLC because of the options they have.
You shouldn't try to impress with such profundity, Bub, because it's oh so very obvious that you lack the skills to do so, even with your meager attempts to baffle the readers with your lame-assed bullshit.
It's back to class for you, Mr Marketing Expert.
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