The gondolist stealth juggernaut grinds on. As can be no doubt inferred from the headline story in the Standard-Examiner Sunday edition, the Utah Board of Regents will likely be the latest group to be be targeted for the scheduling of secret sales meetings with "developer" Chris Peterson, and his lovable but manic sidekick, the globe-trotting Matthew Godfrey.
"While the university would have an opportunity to review the plan, a final decision on whether to sell property to Peterson would rest with the Utah Board of Regents," ace reporter Scott Schwebke dutifully reports.
Yeah, that's the ticket. President Ann Milner and the local crew don't ultimately call the shots at WSU anyway, right?
And comments from local citizens are already beginning to trickle into the Std-Ex letters section, in the wake of reporter Schwebke's March 30 story.
One correspondent complains about government secrecy. This letter mirrors what we've been saying about government secrecy for months on Weber County Forum.
And another Std-Ex editorial section letter deftly examines the true definition of "progress," and succinctly makes a point or two about public interests that need to be considered by the Ogden townsfolk and their public decision-makers in the weeks and months to come.
Our community needs to discuss Mr. Peterson's proposal out in the open, we think, before the public decision-makers even begin their deliberations. Perhaps the discussion process is beginning now. Hopefully the key public decision-makers other than Mayor Godfrey will not already have made their minds up, one way or the other, by the time the public is finally invited to contribute to the debate.
Weber County Forum suggests the scheduling of a series of public hearings or town hall meetings on this subject at the earliest juncture. Architectural renderings, overview maps and supporting documents and memoranda should be lodged for public inspection at City Hall immediately.
"I've never seen anything like this come down the pike," said Norm Tarbox, Weber State University vice president of administrative services. "It's a significant proposal."
Mr. Tarbox certainly got that one right.
Comments, gentle readers?
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64 comments:
This resort can and should be built without a service road. Chris Peterson's proposal's are that it will be if at all possible. I think it is the MANDATE that this resort and all associated development be under the tightest environmental scrutiny from the groundbreaking to full operation. Garbage and recycling are of major concern as well as water sources and downstream impact. Chris Peterson should know that the progress of his resort(if approved) will be under the watchful eye of anyone willing to hike and observe.
This proposal is monumental for Ogden and can be a model in environmental design and construction engineering. Witholding judgement until at least April 19 will give Chris Peterson a fair chance to show us what he has planned. It seems any so-called secret meetings were only held to guage support and simply talk about it. I look forward to more than the tidbits that have been tossed our way.
I'm ambivalent about Noyes. He makes a few good suggestions about considerations, and then I get the feeling he defends Godfrey's courting of the wealthy and 'influential' movers in this town.
Frankly, if this gondola has been talked about for 30 years, DOESN'T IT SEEM REASONABLE TO ASSUME THAT IT HASN'T COME TO FRUITION BECAUSE SANER HEADS THAN GODFREY'S AND ALLEN'S KNEW IT WAS A CUCKOO IDEA? WHY hasn't it bee done in other cities? Godfrey, still searching for that legacy, keeps looking for things 'that no other city in this country have done!"
Remember the rec center PR from him?
Boy, that construction is sure moving along at a clip, eh? I can hardly find any vestiges of a mudhole there anymore.
The Mt. Ogden Golf Course and park were filled today!!!
Question:Why isn't it done in other cities?
Answer:Because other cities are not this close to a ski mountain.
Ski mountains are quite well known for producing revenue and attracting wealthy visitors. In fact nearly every ski mountain and adjoining communities in the world are under going huge infrastructural and building upgrades and expansion based on this fact. Most ski mountains actually are missing one great asset that Ogden does have. A large local population and intermodal transportation access. These things make this project a sure thing considering most ski communities are a tenth the size of Ogden. Just local use alone will guarantee it's success. Do not forget this is not just for skiing. That use only occupies half the calender year. Mountain biking and hiking access will be a huge attraction the rest of the year. There is nothing fundementally wrong with courting the wealthy for reasons of getting them to cut loose some of their investment money on your town.
It is key that the community come together to support and get the most from this project.
Ah, Mutch...you are too too much!
First, you came on like you were going to be reasonable...and now your true colors are flying.
Godfrey never made any mention that those wealthy members of the community were coughing up investment dough. They were just supposed to be listening and giving input...so we were told.
Which is it? Are they gonna fund this boondoggle with Peterson? Hold fundraising bar-b-ques, symphony nites, or what?
No, methinks, IF this gondola goof goes thru...we will be bonded again...without benefit of the voters having a say at the ballot box.
Ozboy, don't start celebrating yet. I just heard from a reliable source that GODFREY PLANS TO RUN AGAIN FOR MAYOR! He plans to stay around until the gondola and ski resort are built!
Come on, guys! We have to find a well-known, well-liked, respected and electable candidate to run for Mayor!
Wouldn't surprise me if Godfrey tries for another term. After all, he knows where the bodies are buried and can't take a chance on any being dug up til they can be exhumed in the dark of night and 'limed' away.
However, his DNA is all over the place...and some good forensic science may soon have him totally exposed.
YES....be on the lookout for an honest, knowledgable public servant to come forth whom we can support for mayor!!
On another note? Anyone catch the SE article yesterday that 7...yep, 7 new restaurants are opening in Layton??? Because it's an "exciting town...with entertainment." We had entertainment too this past weekend, but very few people knew about it...because even the FREE movie only had about 20 people show up! INDEPENDENT FILM MAKERS came here, hoping to help Ogden be another ParkCity/Sundance Film mecca.....hey! aren't those ski hubs too?
Shoot...I suppose one can't enjoy a movie or two in the beautiful Peery Egyptian Theatre WITH the gorgeous historic organ unless (drum roll please) we can ride to the intermodal hub on .....taa daaa...a .....gondola!!!
I suppose it would be a waste of money to promote Ogden's other features and welcome that elusive new business if we don't have a gondola to ride first.
I notice the restaurants in Layton, the mall in Layton, and construction in Layton is moving forward at a fast clip AND THEY DON'T HAVE A GONDOLA!!!
They also, mercifully, don't have Godfrey, Allen and Peterson and the
chosen few wannabe's.
Where is the mainstream entertainment in Ogden? Folks are so starved for entertainment, that they come and watch the Shupe-Williams building burn...and cheer as it topples to the ground.
Starved for entertainment huh? If any of you want to check out a chill little demo I recorded recently, its available for download at www.homepage.mac.com/djole
We need to get Curmudgeon to run for mayor......
Well, perhaps some more buildings of historic value will burn for our entertainment and fill the mayor's coffers.
This gondola idea, in addition to being a tired old and recycled scheme, is the lord mayor's Waterloo. If he doesn't pull this, or one of his other miracles out of his little bag of tricks, in the next year, his political career will end, and whatever currency he may have accrued in the private sector will be pretty bleak as well. He may have to go back to running some slum properties. I am sure he is a "good landlord". I would hope that he can do that better than he has done with the public treasury for the last six years.
I personally hope and pray every day that he does run in a year and a half. There is no other thing on this earth that I would rather do than to help and support getting the truth out about his record as mayor. I think every citizen and tax payer in Ogden deserves to know the real story about the Godfreyite movement and how devestating it has been to our city and its financial well being.
I also believe that a high calliber, high quality candidate will come forward in the coming year and a half. Who ever it is will have my full support.
Armysarge:
I thank you for your endorsement, and I spent this morning considering it. But finally, I concluded that I can't make the run. I'm not qualified:
1. I don't have pals in real estate development I can sell city park lands to in order to enrich them even further.
2. I don't have a father-in-law obcessed with building gondolas in cities. In fact, my only living father-in-law has never even been in a gondola. [I called him.]
3. I am not capable of saying "it's not a secret meeting, it's just a private one and I can't tell you what went on at it" without collapsing into helpless giggling. I tried. I really did. For an hour. In front of a mirror. I just can't do it.
So, as you can see, I clearly am completely unqualified to run for the job of Mayor of Ogden.
But thanks for the endorsement anyway.
We can work on these problems Curm...we can do this!! We will all help you. I will PERSONALY pay for your treatment at Shortcomings Anonymous.......P L E A S E!!!!!
"I've never seen anything like this come down the pike," said Norm Tarbox, Weber State University vice president of administrative services. "It's a significant proposal."
Right! We've never seen anything like this. No one alive in Ogden today has witness a proposal for a half a billion dollar private investment in Ogden. How long has it been since we've had an offer to turn a $320,000 tax drain in to a multi million dollar tax benefit.
This...and we get to play golf on an improved Mount Ogden golf course for about the same price. This...and we get walking paths and biking paths accessible to the public on the Mount Ogden golf course. This...and the trail system on the mountain gets improved and made more usable by the general public. This...and Weber State gets 2,000 dorm rooms that will relieve realestate pressure on campus for other academic and athletic facility development. This...and Weber State gets a transportation mode that allows it to expand campus opportunities into downtown Ogden rather than all the way out in Davis County. This...and we get a Swiss Alps style resort in Malan's basin that is built and maintained via a gondola materials transport system (not a road). This...and we get snowmaking equipment on the golf course that enhances opportunities for cross country skiing on the golf course. This...and Mount Ogden Park stays open to the public. This...and the property values of Ogden city begin to increase, thus increasing future property tax revenue. This....and we get to an environment that attracts other businesses and activities that we can participate in and will generate further tax revenue to the city.
When he said its a "significant proposal"...I think he was right.
Certainly it is something to strongly consider.
By Gary Kapp
Guest commentary
"To think is to create." This is a simplified way to state a complex series of events. But every result begins with just one thought. In the stage play "Time," one line stands out: "If you truly want to change your world, my friends, you must change your thinking."
The residents of Ogden have the tools before them to change their world for the better because of a single thought that has blossomed into a strategic plan. This is the way of all greatness, and every person can be a part of it. Every resident and business has the opportunity to get onboard for a terrific journey that will take this community to new heights -- literally!
The following cities were once on the same threshold we are now, and because their citizens rallied around those with the visions, they have risen above "good enough" to be among the best.
For instance, tourists pour into Albuquerque, N.M., during its annual balloon festival. They come to watch the colorful hot-air balloons dot the skies; or maybe experience the spectacular birds-eye-view from above.
These same visitors travel into the Sandia Mountains, where New Mexico entertains its visitors with gondola trips toward the mountaintops. Jackson Hole and Targhee, Wyo., are host cities to exciting gondola rides, both summer and winter. These mountain attractions provide a thrilling experience that rewards the visitor with an astonishing view of the Grand Tetons and the valleys below.
Chicago developed a productive tourist attraction along the shores of its river as it runs through the historic downtown area. Guides on the tour boats relate the history of the city and beautiful architecture of its buildings as the riverboats travel toward the beaches of Lake Michigan. San Antonio, Texas, has its riverfront attractions that draw thousands of tourists. Evening riders also enjoy the TexMex cuisine on the flat of the river floaters.
Napa Valley, Calif., draws visitors to its plethora of wineries. San Francisco has many famous tourist attractions, such as Fisherman's Wharf, a trip on the Bay to Sausalito or a visit to beaches to see the porpoises frolic.
A couple returning from a vacation in the Palm Springs area tell about the Palm Springs Aerial Tramway in the nearby mountains, which has become an enormous tourist attraction. The day of their ride up the mountain, the gondolas were full of visitors -- upwards of 80 riders in line all day. Gondolas traveling in each direction were always fully occupied.
These cities have identified their greatest resources and have developed them to attract visitors. They are just a few of the cities whose leaders thought "out of the box" to bring synergy to their communities and gain national recognition that has resulted in tourism beyond imagination.
Ogden is on the cusp of becoming a local, state and national destination. Our resources are now becoming our strengths. A strong faction of community leaders is feverishly working toward the goal of constructing a gondola that will include a sky view of Ogden and its sister communities, replete with a trip upward on majestic Mt. Ogden. Envision the sight of Antelope Island on a summer evening with a sunset over the Great Salt Lake that rivals the sunsets of Hawaii.
And this is right in our own backyard!
The intrepid planners are resolute. They want to invest in Ogden's uniqueness. We must embrace the concept and become involved every step of the way. They want detractors to think forward and become a positive force in this unique community adventure.
Yes, it is the right time for the citizens of the greater Ogden area to join this determined team of gondola planners and think "out of the box" to help speed the planning, construction and the ultimate success of a gondola to grace the skies over Ogden.
The reward will be manifold in revitalizing and reinvigorating Ogden as it continues to search for a return of its glory days. It can happen if every citizen vows to make a change in attitude and say, "It can happen" rather than "It won't work."
The investment of approval, personal effort and positive public response will be immeasurably repaid. Now is the time to step forward and become a part of the team and embrace the proposal for the Ogden gondola. What an image enhancer this will be when it becomes a reality!
Kapp is president of Kapp Construction & Development in Ogden.
Speak Up! in the forums
Gondola is a means to success
www.banffgondola.com.
What do those in favor of the gondola want from the public? Vocal support? Money? Tax dollars? A vote?
The Ogden City Council could mandate a referendum on this, I think.
But as we have been saying for a year or so now, there are many variables to take into consideration for this project, and No One can really make an Informed decision at this point, because there has been a paucity of information.
Happily, this is soon to be remedied. Within the next two weeks, it is said, Chris Peterson will present his concept at WSU. We can all go and listen to it and take it from there.
Malan Heights
“In the 1860’s Tim D. Malan found a mountain basin containing a spring and timber. By 1868 he was selling logs using his roller invention to get them safely down cliffs. July 1892, Tim and his sons finished a road using picks and shovels, later he hewed a switch back road wide enough for two wagons, built a home and a hotel. Guests came in horse drawn spring wagons to enjoy Aunt Loui’s cooking, play various games, or watch activities in town through a powerful telescope.”
TO Gary Kapp (or the person pretending to be him): We are talking about a gondola going up 23rd Street and down Harrision Blvd. to weber State. I don't know wheter you have noticed but, this is NOT the most scenic route through the city. I am also quite certain the folks in these neighborhoods won't appreciate being watched from above. Build your gondola from the foothills to he (proposed) resort but do NOT take it through people's homes. This is one of the most idiotic ideas that has ever come down the pike!!!! This is NOT Jackson Hole or any of the places you mentioned. I think we are capable of putting together some great things in this city but, THIS is NOT one of them!!!
Reply to Anon and the posted comment by Mr. Kapp:
Where to begin? Anon wrote: "No one alive in Ogden today has witness a proposal for a half a billion dollar private investment in Ogden." Is it really? Anyone seen the financials on this yet? Anyone seen any investors, banks, etc. putting money on the table? I haven't. And let us recall, that only months ago, the Lift Ogden growd were telling us Mr. Peterson was a public-spirited citizen who was willing to build the WSU/Malan's Basin Gondola with his own money, taking all the risk. Now it develops he wants the city to sell him Mt. Ogden Park so he can develop it as an upscale gated community of vacation homes, and so he can take the profit from developing city property to build his end of the gondola. My my my, how the tale does change over time. When we see the financials and investors willing to put money on the table to back this scheme, then maybe we can talk about the size of the investment involved, and who is going to pony up what part of it --- tax-payers, private investors, etc. and whether it will all be worth it for the City. But at the moment, it's all just pie in the sky.
Anon wrote: "How long has it been since we've had an offer to turn a $320,000 tax drain in to a multi million dollar tax benefit. " A couple of points to be made here. First, are we sure the Mt. Ogden Golf Course loses that much per year? As anyone not connected with the Mayor's office, trained in accounting, gone over the records? Or is this just another number flung out there by the Mayor which the press is accepting without question? I note that one of our Council members has begun looking into the Golf Course accounting and is suggesting that the size of the "loss" has been over-stated. Is that so? I don't know. But I don't know that the Mayor's number is accurate either.
Secondly, on the same point, we are not being asked to simply sell the golf course, but Mt. Ogden Park. So it is more than a little disingenuous to say we have the chance to turn an alleged 320K loss into a multi-million dollar tax gain. Anon could say that if ALL Mr. Peterson wanted to buy was the golf course. But he wants the whole park, to develop high end homesites. He is not proposing simply to buy the course. And Anon. knows this very well.
Anon wrote: "and the trail system on the mountain gets improved and made more usable by the general public. " Oh really? The Peterson proposal [according to those have seen the plans by invitation] involves building homesites along the current Bonneville Bench Trail, which will become a paved residential street. Behind locked gates [owners only welcome.] Trails upslope from the golf course will be wiped out by construction. And all of it part of a "gated development." How this adds up to increased access to improved trails escapes me. I hope, Anon, that you have not tapped into some righteous weed and are indulging yourself.
Anon. wrote: "And Weber State gets 2,000 dorm rooms." Oh, goody. WSU can add the new-mega dorm complex to the PT Towers dorm it can't fill, to the other two on-campus dorms it can't fill, and to the University Village it can't fill. Just what WSU needs. More empty dorm rooms.
Anon wrote: "and we get a Swiss Alps style resort in Malan's basin that is built and maintained via a gondola materials transport system (not a road)." Really? So, Mr. Peterson has gotten variances on county building codes that require all-season road access for residential developments? Or does Weber Co. not requrie access for fire control for residential developments? Mr. Peterson has gotten variances on Weber County development ordinances which generally forbide development of land with a slope in excess of 30% [only a very small part of the Malan's Basin property is developable under current county building codes, I think.] Gee, I haven't heard of any such variances having been granted. In fact, last time I talked to anyone who had checked, Weber County officials were unaware of any having been applied for. Imagine that.
Anon wrote: "and we get snowmaking equipment on the golf course that enhances opportunities for cross country skiing on the golf course." Oh, this is a new one. First time I've heard of this. Anon. must be one of the favored few invited to the meetings that were not secret, but which only the invited could attend and which the mayor says he can't tell us about because they were "private" but not "secret." Wonder what else Anon. knows that Mr. Peterson and Hizzonah have not yet deigned to let the vulgar herd [aka voters and taxpayers of Ogden] in on? So many questions. So few answers.
Now, as for Mr. Kapp's paen of praise to gondolas and trams elswhere.... Well, this post is long enough, so I'll limit myself to two points: First, Kapp is president of Kapp Construction & Development in Ogden. [And I congratualte Anon for including his title. I mean that. Full disclosure is always best in public discussions over public policy.] But... we all need to recognize that Mr. Kapp has a dog in this fight. No doubt he hopes and expects Kapp Construction will receive a significant share of the construction business for the 400 home gated community development Peterson wants, and the reconfiguring of the golf course, and the gondola/gondola scheme and.... Well, you get the idea. Nothing wrong with Mr. Kapp boosting a plan he expects his company to profit from handsomely, but the rest of us are entitled to at least wonder whether his gushing enthusiasm for the project is motivated by public spirited belief that this is a good plan for Ogden, or his business belief that the plan will benefit his company and himself, regardless of whether in the end it is good for Ogden. As I said, he is hardly a disinterested participant in the discussion.
Second: I knew it. I knew if we waited long enough we'd hear about the Albuquerque tram going up the Sandia Crest on the outskirts of the City yet again. All this started with Mr. Dustin Chapman writing an op ed piece for the Standard Examiner many months ago, singing the praises of the Albuquerque tram [claiming its terminal was "downtown" Albuquerque, which made me doubt Mr. Chapman had ever been on the tram about which he waxed so enthusiastic]. And now we have Mr. Kapp gushing over the Albuquerque tram. He writes: "For instance, tourists pour into Albuquerque, N.M., during its annual balloon festival. They come to watch the colorful hot-air balloons dot the skies; or maybe experience the spectacular birds-eye-view from above."
Please note, They come to watch the colorful hot-air balloons do the skies; or maybe experience the spactacular birds-eye-view from above." Wow, what a segue. "Or maybe." Let's do some basic geography: the population of Albuquerque metro area is about nine times the population of the Ogden metro area. Nine times the resident population. Aluquerque is served by eight regularly scheduled airlines, bringing hundreds of thousands of tourists a year. [Ogden has no regularly scheduled airline service.] With all that going for it, the Albuquerque tram hovers annually between barely breaking even and losing money. Yes, it is a tourist attraction for those coming to Albuquerque... to visit the city [itself a major tourist destination], to attend the balloon festival, to begin touring N. New Mexico [Albq. airport is the one that serves Santa Fe], and so on. Ogden is no Albuquerque.
If so much wasn't at stake it would be funny. The Lift Ogden folks on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday tell us the gondola/gondola scheme will make us the new Albuquerque. Then on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday, they tell us the gondola/gondola scheme will make us the new Aspen.
Can't have it both ways, guys....
This post is too long already and I've imposed on Rudi's PSRs [poor suffering readers] too much. Apologies for the length.
Well Curmudgeon, I think you ought to keep writing on this subject. Didn't seem long enough to me. I think all of these pie in the sky reasons that the gongola scheme's are Ogden's salvation should be debunked - one by one.
One of the more recent ones that comes to mind is this drivel about 3 million cars a year going past Ogden on the way to Grand Teton and Yellowstone. And if we only got 10 percent of that traffic stopping, why it would make Ogden come alive and BE!
Every thing this Gondolist crowd is putting out as justification is really so much grist for the mill. I doubt if hardly any of it could stand scrutiny. They just keep throwing crap against the wall to see what sticks and what doesn't.
Keep pealing back their BS, thank you.
Yes Curmudgeon, there is a lot of double-speak going around. I watched the Mayor's last call in show, and I remember him saying that the gondola isn't about public transporation, its about tourism and increasing the City's tax base. And then other Godfreyites talk about how people can start from downtown, get on the gondola, and then ride downhill on a bike to their needed destination. Or how it will serve thousands of WSU students, etc.
Over on the Good in Ogden, utmo said the following:
"As much as some professors at the university may think and act like they have the power to preserve land and create policy, they don't. Their job is to educate people. If they wanted to go into the land preservation business, they should have used their hefty salaries to buy the property themselves and then tell us what can be done with it. If they wanted to be policy makers for entire communities, then they should have become politicians, in my opinion. But they didn't, so they should continue on in their valiant mission to educate students and make this community a better place."
Well guess what utmo, if someone lives and works in Ogden, they have every right to voice their opinion about the sale of public lands here, even if they're not a politician or in the real estate business.
Just call us Medellin North, I guess.
Interesting pictures of city in Columbia which has chosen a gondola for city transport. Scary quote:
Located in a built-up area, construction of the lift required the issue of a number of compulsory purchase orders on various properties. In addition, the ground on which the lift is built calls for extremely deep anchoring for the single-shaft towers, each of which rests on four piles, with a diameter of 2 m, driven down to a depth of 8 meters.
Also construction pictures, which indicate this to be a very massive enterprise.
Medellin Columbia Gondola
My link went to the main page. Scroll down---the Medellin gondola pics are linked in the right column of links. The link says: POMA: New Gondola lift in the city of Medellin / Colombia
Gary Cap no more rote thu editoriel then I am a englush major. All these flowury wurds frum thu mouth of thee Gary Kapp. What has that boy been smokin???
"To think is to create."
"In the stage play "Time," one line stands out: "If you truly want to change your world, my friends, you must change your thinking."
"A single thought that has blossomed into a strategic plan."
"they have risen above "good enough" to be among the best."
"Evening riders also enjoy the TexMex cuisine on the flat of the river floaters."
"Plethora of wineries."
"visit to beaches to see the porpoises frolic."
"thought "out of the box" to bring synergy to their communities"
"replete with a trip upward on majestic Mt. Ogden."
"Envision the sight of Antelope Island on a summer evening with a sunset over the Great Salt Lake that rivals the sunsets of Hawaii."
"The intrepid planners are resolute."
"grace the skies over Ogden."
"The reward will be manifold"
"immeasurably repaid."
Give me a break. This editorial that appeared in the Standard awhile back was not written by Gary Kapp. If you have ever had a conversation with Gary Kapp you know without reservation that he has signed an editorial written by someone else and a lot of think we know who it was. I happened to be in attendance at a meeting last summer meeting where he absolutely murdered the english language to the point where afterwords people in the room were making light of him.
As Curmudgeon so aptly recognized; "No doubt he hopes and expects Kapp Construction will receive a significant share of the construction business"
He must know this man as others in the community see him, nothing more than an oportunistic baffoon.
Those towers in Columbia are scary enough!
We can already take a sunset boat ride on the Great Salt Lake and see the lovely sunsets...even have dinner on the boat.
To think is to create.....oh, how profound. That's the kind of lofty (we thought) thinking we college kids did over a bottle of Mogen David wine! We were sooo clever and superior...ready to save mankind.
I think Godfrey and the father-in-law are stuck in a time warp of creativity.
Curmudgeon and ArmySarge have some valid points and questions that need addressing.
Don't forget the benefits of the new dorms...no kitchens! That way, students will have to eat together at the student union or someplace TOGETHER...bonding and making lifetime friendships that will boost them all their lives. Oh Glory. No thought to how poor struggling students who can't even fill the existing dorms will be able to eat out for three meals a day!!
That's the kind of vision we were treated to by Peterson at the recent private LiftOgden meeting!
I like the idea of horse drawn wagons going up the canyon...so romantic, don't you think?
Don't forget that he will see that the trails are leveled so one doesn't have to strain, bent over, while trying to hike to the Falls.
I think just about any of our regular gentle readers could run for mayor!!!
Dian...thank you for the link. You are good!
Thanks, Ned. Glad you liked(?) the link. I cannot imagine those poles going up 23rd Street, or down Harrison, for that matter. There would be no room for anything else. And the construction looked horrendous.
We would be slightly inconvenienced during the buildout, I think.
Jennifer:
Some people looked into this when the idea of selling Mt. Ogden Park for real estate development was first broached, and they discovered that while the land was in fact donated for public recreational use, the actual transfer documents did not contain language requiring that the gift be returned if the city used it for another purpose. If that's true, and I think it is, the City would clearly be breaking faith with the donors who intended the land to be used for public recreation [as a park] if it sold the land, but it would not be violating any legally binding agreement. Or so it was explained to me by someone who had looked into the matter.
I would think that if enough of the donor's heirs were willing to make sworn statements as to the donor's intent, that would hold some weight.
Curm - You owe no apology for the length of what you wrote. We need more of that. What we REALLY need is to get that sort of information to more of the public. Have you considered an article (NOT a letter - an article) in the Standard? That would get much more circulation (no offense rudzi). I wonder if those living on 23rd Street and Harrison Boulevard have yet realized how this will disrupt their lives.
P.S. I really was serious about you running for mayor.....
There is a very good link on the sidebar about the elections---who is running for what. Perhaps one day we will see Curmudgeon's name among them.
armysarge:
While I haven't spoken to anyone living at 23rd and Harrison I live close enough to make that a very convenient loading point to reach downtown or WSU. Living within a couple blocks of a terminal there will have a mixed impact. One would have doorstep access to a most modern transit system.It would seem that that would add considerable value to one's property and one's own lifestyle. The downside would be some parking issues and increased noise although living that close to Harrison already presents those issues.
Most opponents are screaming for the same thing, more details and more public discussion. You will apparently have it. You all sound as though something is being kept from you. It seems you have demanded more than is even available so relax. April 19 will reveal more apparently and public discussion is already started.
I believe people in Vail and Aspen pay quite handsomely for lift side living. No complaints.
Mutch Noyes:
Call Lift Ogden immediately. You're on the wrong page for today. Today is a Wednesday. On Wednesdays, the Lift Ogden line is the gondola/gondola scheme will turn Ogden into Albuquerque, not Aspen. Didn't you get the memo?
Regardless of what city the gondola/gondola scheme makes us into, I want to know what the scheme is going to do for the rest of Ogden. You know, that other part of Ogden, say, between Harrison and Wall and 36th and 2nd. Last time I checked, we already have a golf course and trails (which are constantly being improved by people with calloused hands instead of deep pockets). We also have world class ski resorts. What we don't have is a real plan of action to renovate the disintegrating hole that is central Ogden. Shouldn't we fix what we have before we try to lasso the moon?
If the Lifters out there think this gondola/gondola scheme can or will fix central Ogden, tell me HOW! I want real answers, not idealist obscure bull(crud). How will the scheme fill the holes, clean up the city and provide quality jobs (not part-time/seasonal/minimum-wage housekeeping/fast-food/gondola-attendant jobs), cheap mass transit, less crime/vandalism?
The Albuquerque reference by whoever is not especially applicaple to the Ogden plans. Albuquerque has the Sandia Peak Tram. It does not link downtown to the mountain or anything like that. It is, however, a huge tourist attraction.
Mudge, first you wonder if it's for ski, then for transit, then for mountain access. I guess you don't realize it is for all those things. Narrow thinking will keep anyone from visualizing the simplest of descriptions. You make it sound like the optional functionality is a drawback rather than utility. Some people use a screwdriver to open a can of paint. Some run down to the depot for a Paint Can Opener" A little ingenuity goes a long way.
Tardust, The gondola won't fix Central Ogden. People, not unlike yourself, mammalian tool users, who appreciate an inner city lifestyle that includes access to the mountains, will do the work. That's who.
I think the lift ogden site has links to EXACTLY the kind of system we have proposed here that are now approved for Avon,CO and Breckenridge, CO. Those communities pale in size to Ogden.
"Narrow thinking will keep anyone from visualizing the simplest of descriptions. "
Narrow thinking is the watchword of the Godfrey Administration.
If a fly-by-night developer like Chris Peterson can make a few $ 100 mil with a sweetheart deal... That's Okay with the little guy on nine. He's NEVER been known to drive a hard bargain. He's developing a local reputation as a "giveaway artist," In fact.
The little shit is even smaller than his usual height, when he's genuflecting to Chris Peterson.
"Progress" to the evil Matt Godfrey means transforming our great town into a tacky amusement park.
"Tardust, The gondola won't fix Central Ogden."
First, the name is turdust, Match. I didn't choose the nickname, and the guy who did has passed on so let's not change it.
Second, and mainly, if the gondola won't fix the problems in Ogden, I defer to my first point that we need to fix what we have before going after the moon.
What are we going to fix central Ogden with? Tax dollars we don't have?!?!
Has anyone been paying attention to Davis County Chamber of Commerce, CVB and convention center? They are all being run by - guess who, people who used to try to sell Ogden.
Guess what they are selling? The same thing they tried to sell while in Ogden. Our world class ski resort, only now, by way of trappers loop. Golf courses - only they are selling Layton's and not Ogden's.
I worked closely with the Barbara Riddles and Susan Listons when they were here. Ogden was a tough sell. It's old, it's run down, and nobody wants to let anyone spend their own money to let it move forward. Layton is closer to the airport, and is cleaner, newer, and more progressive.
That is why they have not only brought in conferences that they tried to get to Ogden, but have also been able to steal the ones that already were at the conference center.
That's why 7 new restaurants have opened there.
No, they don't have a gondola, but they are progressive. They are moving forward. They like to see change and progress. If they could connect downtown Layton (they don't really have an official downtown) to a ski resort, you can bet they would.
Don't you get it? It's 2006. We have got to step up to the plate. Ogden is on the verge. Either we move forward or we fall - hard.
Keep opposing everything. That's fine. That's your right. That's your prerogative. But remember, when it doesn't get any better.....if you're not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem.
"What are we going to fix central Ogden with? Tax dollars we don't have?!?!"
Weird, but true. Now that our multilevel marketing mayor has pledged all the RDA tax increment, and all the BDO lease revenue to a couple of brokeass dorks who run break-even gyms and bowling alleys, Ogden City is pretty well tapped out, fer sher.
The only thing we can do now, rationally, is to start selling all our assets, starting with the most valuable ones!
It's all about progress, after all.
"...when it doesn't get any better.....if you're not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem."
To refer to another hackneyed cliche: "if it ain't broke; don't fix it."
Ogden is just fine now. If you don't like it here, please move away.
It seems to me that you are the ones doing most of the complaining. So does the same rule apply?
Move to Provo, anonymous.
There's no doubt you'll be happier there.
We like our town the way it is, and we don't want to become the laughing stock of the intermountain states, with a dangling can hanging off a wire up 23d, and south a mile on Harrison.
Get a Ryder truck, anonymous, and move all your stuff to Utah County.
Thanks in advance.
Lovely Jennifer-
My understand of Chris Peterson's public access issue is this:
Yes, he will build high end homes on the property. Yes, it will be gated to vehicular traffic. Yes, there will be several pedestrian accesspoints that allow runners, hikers, bikers, sledders, etc. to access the property, meander about on the trails that hi is putting in, and enjoy the property.
The gated "vehicluar" traffic issue does not seem to be a big deal as right now there are no cars allowed up there, and there is a big white fence around the golf course.
As for turning downtown Ogden around... We need some tax dollars. Chris Peterson's project, according to the meeting last week, is projected to produce $5,000,000 in tax revenue annually. It is further projected to attract additional companies to the area that will contribute to the tax coffers as well. Also, it is projected that the property values in Ogden, especially those surrounding the Golf Course, will increase so as to increase future property tax revenue as well. These revenue source can be used to help improve the inner city of Ogden.
As for the homes on 23rd Street.... Just ask a few realtors around town. I've heard several say that they have been in contact with people who are buying homes in downtown Ogden in an effort to improve them and take advantage of their subsequent growth in value. Buy low, sell high concept...not novel in the business world.
The prospects for inner city Ogden rejuvenation certainly look better with Chris Peterson in the picture than they do without him. At the very least, his $500,000,000 investment should help more than noe investment and a continued $320,000 loss on the golf course.
Hope this helps.
Having concerns and complaints doesn't mean that you must leave this wonderful town. It simply means that you should offer some effective suggestions to address those concerns and complaint or at least recognize when the solution is already on the table.
Certainly a $500,000,000 investment in our community should be strongly considered and no dismissed so readily.
"Yes, he will build high end homes on the property. "
No he won't. The particular property was donated for park use only. Ogden's Christian community won't permit you developer scum to do that, even though it may be technically legal.
Donald,
Maybe I could take a moment to be your realtor.
When the Gondola goes in, you might consider moving to Brigham City. They have a movie theatre there. They have mountains nearby to hike in. They have a golf course. They have a couple of nice restaurants. It sounds perfect for you. What do you think? Honestly. It is a solution that seems reasonable given what you seem to be looking for in a community.
Rev Joe -
Technically legal is not much of a term. If it is Technically legal, then it is in fact legal. If it is in fact legal, then it legally can move forward. If the benefits are sufficient to fill some very important needs of this community, then it might be pursued.
Developer scum....Sheez!
Rev Joe -
Please also refer to Lovely Jennifer's question:
She was asking about the feasibility and compatibility and logic of "public access" and a "gated community". My answer was simply a reply to her inquiry. My reply came directly from the discussion the Chris Peterson so had with over 100 community members last week and is continuing to have nearly every day.
The question was not: Is the Chris Peterson's plan compatible with Donald? If that were the question, I might say no. Donald does not want this to happen. He likes the city the way it is.
You should leave immediately, while the gettin's good.
Even the least sophisticated among us realizes that this whole scheme will be financed from the equity in the Mt. Ogden property, which Godfrey proposes to sell for a song.
Peterson won't bring a dime of his own into the deal, once Ogden giveaway artist Matt Godfrey gets his way.
"Progressive Ogdenites" are a pack of country bumpkins, whov'e been set up like nodding bobbleheads to take it in the economic shorts.
Godfrey will be ushered out of town on a rail in 2007, fluttering in feathers, and smelling of hot tar, the olde-fashioned Ogden way.
Something for anonymous.
You have no concept of morality or ethics, eh?
Everything Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot did was "technically legal."
Conversing with amoral people like you gives us all the creeps.
The righteous people of Ogden will stop you in your tracks, of course.
To the "anonymous" expounding on all the wonderfulness (made up word) happening in Layton: The thing you are forgetting is that when all this started (in Layton), they had all sorts of available land (i.e. U N D E V E L O P E D land). Ogden was, and is, basically a built up entity. Thus, people migrated to places (enter Layton) with undeveloped and available land. That happens everywhere. That is why all the areas outside of but within proximity to Salt lake City are also growing. The day will come when Layton will not be adding restaurants (or anything else)left
and right. We do NOT need the )*_+(&(*%(_&*+&Y(*%*())(*^) gondola!!!!
I think that part of this discussion has veered off into inaccuracy. People have begun to talk about Chris Peterson's five hundred million dollar investment.
I myself remember reading that Chris Peterson had said that the entire project would cost five hundred million. But I have never heard it said or even implied that Chris Peterson himself had five hundred million and wished to put it all into this project.
The way I understand this is that Chris Peterson is a developer with an idea. His investment so far in buying the land is under one million dollars. To make his idea a reality, he will need five hundred million. I assume that this is the reason for Lift Ogden---to attract other investors so as to get the needed five hundred million.
Big difference there, between what something will cost and someone's personal investment. One does not equal the other--far from it.
I'm thinking that this verbose "Anonymous is Godfrey, Patterson or Harmer.
Also, I know that group from the 9th floor and dark corners read every word of this site.
Since the general plan was mentioned, the SE now reports that the General Plan may be reworked so that Matt can still find his legacy.
I labored in the inner city for an extensive amount of time helping the families there.
If the little guy wants a real legacy he needs to think of the welfare of all of the citizens of Ogden, and the neediest among us first.
What do you think of this?
Peterson, as promised, builds the gondola on his millions, up the canyon to Malan's Basin. The TROLLEY will pick up those thousands of tourists driving on I-15, on their way to Yellowstone, who will pop in here for a gondola ride. They will park in a spacious lot by Union Station, board the trolley to the mouth of the canyon and hop on the gondola! Elegant shops will spring up all along the river parkway to dazzle the tourists going up and coming down. They can have a fabulous dining experience, shop at high-end stores
hop the trolley to downtown , see a movie and maybe stay overnite in one of our fabulous hotels.
Perhaps they will take their children to Dinosaur Park...more fun than visiting grampa in Iowa!
Before they get back into their cars to continue to Yellowstone, they may want to browse Union Station. Too bad the First National Railroad Museum won't be there too. Hizzoner always wants Ogden to be the first city in the country to have this or that....and a Smithsonian National Railroad Museum celebrating our heritage would be magnificent.
I suppose railroad cars make Matt think of dirty scummy people, not the kind who ski and ride gondolas.
Watch for the General Plan to be dissected and desicated to allow Matt to have his vision realized.
Come on, Anonymous, it's apparent that that you are in Godfrey's inner circle. How can you breathe that fetid air?
I understand you kids are having another 'by invitation only' meeting on the 14th...is that where you'll fine tune the bull you want to sell the rabble on the 19th?
Your meeting last week was an embarrassment.So sophomoric. So sleazy in concept, and inept in delivery.
Does the mayor have an official WCFORUM reader so that he can be informed of the intelligent thinking and suggestions of the gentle readers here? This is where the good ideas are coming from. Unfortunately, I think this is where numb nuts thot of changing the Gneral Plan to suit his nefarious schemes.
turdust quietly notes that several Lifters insisted the gondola scheme is the way to fix central Ogden, but declined to address his inquiry as to HOW.
Oh the comfort, the inexpressible comfort of feeling safe with a person, having neither to weigh thoughts nor measure words, but pouring them all right out, just as they are, chaff and grain together; certain that a faithful hand willtake and sift them, keep what is worth keeping, and
then with the breath of kindness blow the rest away.
Truth Justice and the American Way
"Let us oft speak kind words to each other,
At home or where'er we may be
Oh, the kind words we give shall in memory live,
And sunshine forever impart.
Let us oft speak kind words to each other;
Kind words are sweet tones of the heart" (Hymn #232).
This hymn, Let Us Oft Speak Kind Words, elaborates that we should speak kind words no matter where we are or who we are with. We never know when a kind word will help somebody's day be better. Life is too precious to speak harshly to one another.
"Life is too precious to speak harshly to one another."
You're about nine years old, right, "anonymous?"
I haven't heard anything so sappy since the last time I heard Steve Larsen speak publically at a city council election event.
Matt Godfrey is waging total war on the city of Ogden. The sooner Ogden people realize this the better for all of us. The little guy is not only annoying, but obsessed. He NEVER gives an inch. He WILL NOT be persuaded by public sentiment until he's driven out of office in 2008.
Make no mistake. Matt Godfrey has the personality of A BADGER.
Singing KUMBAYA ain't gonna get it with MAtt Godfrey staying up for days on end and obsessing about his father-inlaw's "dream."
Ogden people need to meet the little shit head-on, and firmly say "NO" to the ridiculous "downtown gondola" proposition.
The little guy needs a little "tough love" before his political career is brought to a timely end, wethinks.
right on, Rudi!!
How about YOU runnig for mayor??
Cumdgeon could be your faithful assistant..or better yet, The executive director TO the council!!!
WOW...would we see progress in this ol' town or WHAT?
Carefull, anony II.
When you bring my family into this discussion by name, you'd better be careful to watch your backside.
I have your IP address recorded, BTW.
Nobody is truly "anonymous" on the internet.
Remember that.
Not quite sure of the "offense" regarding your family. Can't remember that being my intent. Sorry if ya took it wrong.
As for IP addresses, all they are are "area locators," which change every time ya turnoff the PC, have a power outage, or do a virus dump. Anonymity reigns supreme, recorded Ips or not.
Duh!
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