For those gentle readers interested in discussing last night's Smart Growth Ogden-sponsored Mt. Ogden neighborhood planning meeting, which was held at the Wasatch elementary school, we are setting up this thread for that topic. At least one gentle reader has already mentioned this meeting in a previous thread; and we anticipate that other readers may feel compelled to chime in on this topic too. To get the ball rolling, we're linking this morning's Standard-Examiner story here.
For the benefit of those gentle readers who would desire a decidely more detailed and cerebral (and accurate) report than Ace Reporter Schwebke has provided, you can read Part I of Dian Woodhouse's report here. A Part II installment is coming up imminently, Dian informs us, so be sure to stay tuned to this blog. In the meantime, your continuing reader comments are invited.
What, gentle readers, were YOUR impressions of this meeting? Did the citizens in attendance "raucously" "shred" the gondolist resort plan, as the Standard-Examiner headline and Mr. Schwebke suggest? Were all points of view fully and fairly represented? What points caught your particular attention? What were the highlights; and what arguments came off as "duds?"
Comments, anyone?
Update 4/14/06 11:45 a.m. MT: As promised, Dian has produced and submitted her Part II "public comments" write-up, which has been unfortunately languishing in our email inbox since early yesterday morning. We offer our apologies for the delay in posting this final installment. Having arrived by email, the article required manual re-formatting. To our regret, your humble blogmaster didn't have time to do that until just now. Special thanks go out to gentle reader Dian, who does so very much to contribute to the flow of information on this blog and in this community.
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52 comments:
This is exactly why it is time to prevent an all out fall out.
There is a developer who owns the most premier undeveloped real estate adjacent to the city.
There is a city in need of influx of both residents and businesses to fill a tremendous vacuum.
May I state that to leave this vacuum unattended will lead to it's cancerous expansion. We do not need to nurture what in other cities would be a paradise to the undereducated, underprivileged, homeless, gangs etc. Ogden should not be left to detiorate to be the slum of the Wasatch front. Has anyone noticed the recent splurge of homes going UP for sale.
This Chris Peterson deal opens huge opportunities to the city. Unfortunately CP in his bumbling million(billion?)aireish way has blown his wad on talk. This has led to rampant speculation with NO FACTS. The insistence that the city must give up a well loved park to FINANCE his development and city transit is the fly in the ointment.
Still I think there is an opportunity here to have an environmentally engineered Alpine Village with free access to everyone. I think we could get the Golf Course reengineered by Peterson in exchange give him enough land to build his lower gondola station and build a small mixed use village. I think Peterson should purchase the Property at 24th and Monroe and redevelop THAT property into luxury condos with PREMIUM GROCERY with Gondola throughway access and HE builds the gondola from THERE to the Base Village. Now we are getting something. I propose that these kind of things would do far more for our city than his gated conclave concept.
Two comments, one a response to Mutch, and one a pet peeve about the SE coverage of the Smart Growth Ogden event.
First, the response:
The problem, Mutch, is that I don't think this option... some other model of growth and preservation that saves the core of what many want saved while permitting development up mountain that will aid the city in other ways ... is on the table, or can be, given the Godfrey administration's "all or nothing" "my way or the highway" approach to all this. Not talking here of Peterson's proposal, but the Mayor's way of dealing with it, which has been consistently "all or nothing, no compromise, take no prisoners." Given that, hardly surprising that the "no compromise, just say no" faction on the other side has swelled in numbers.
Having a substantive city-wide discussion over what would be best for Ogden's future is a fine idea. I like it a great deal. But it cannot happen, that discussion cannot examine alternatives, compromises, middle grounds, when the Mayor himself is offering only Peterson's Plan, in toto, unamended, period... and refusing to so much as discuss alternatives.
Hard to have a one-side conversation about options.
Second: I read the SE coverage of the SGO meeting at Wasatch elementary last night. "Raucous" meeting? I was there for the whole time. Nobody, but NOBODY got heckled as they spoke. Not even Bob Geiger and others who were clearly pro-Peterson plan. Not once. Everyone who wanted to speak got the opportunity to speak, as SGO intended. Even Geiger and others who came with him. No one was shouted down. There was applause at the end of people's comments [including applause by and for the Geiger faction]. Occasionally there was applause mid-comment. But no heckling, no abuse, no shouting. SGO worked very hard to make sure the public meeting was open to speakers on all sides, and that it remained civil. And it did.
And the SE description? "A raucous meeting."
When I assert here and elsewhere, that the SE has become the House organ for the Godfrey administration, I'll now offer the story on the SGO meeting as further evidence.
I absolutely agree, Curmudgeon. I attended last night and the choice of the word "raucous" was not a good one at all. There was applause, there was participation, but nothing at all that could be termed "raucous."
I too took copious notes and will try to work on putting them together.
Curmudgeon, Thanks for the response. Sure the wildcards I tossed out have not been "on the table". Neither had the golf course until very recently. That's while all cards should be on the table so they can be arranged to build something that will set the stage for Ogden's future. I support the development of an environmentally engineered village along with a similarly engineered base village anchored to Mt Ogden Golf Course. I do not support the takeover of the course. While this kind of idea has not been proposed why the hell not?
Why not offer Chris Peterson some other option if he wants to develop something in our city.
The failure of government and citizen committees both is that they can stifle the more creative of solutions when caught in the fog of choosing sides instead of solutions.
Bob G:
You wrote: "It was difficult for many people to speak intelligently on the matter. "
Well, BG, you had an advantage over many there. As you said, you've "seen the plan." Many of the rest of us, not being privy to secret meetings of invitees only much beloved of our Mayor, have not.
When you keep the plans from the public, and when you, as you said to the Standard Examiner, delibertly keep elements of the plan secret out of fear of engendering public opposition to them, it's a little odd then to hear you complaining that folks got things wrong and were not speaking knowledgeably. When you refuse to make clear what your plan is, you kind of have to expect rumor and speculation to fill in the gaps, and all but inevitably, some of it will be wrong.
I am looking foward to the Mayor's unveiling of Peterson Plan Version 6.7 at the council chamber Thursday night. It will be even more interesting to see if Peterson's unveiling at WSU on the 19th is the same plan or a version 6.8.
I'm very confused< Mutch. Am I reading correctly that you are now proposing a small village instead of the 'gated community of houses', AND an Alpine Village in the Basin?
Why? Why 2 'villages'...to what purpose?
Let's not color Peterson's desires as altruistic. He's in this for himself. And if he thot he had
land available somewhere else...he'd go there to make a profit.
He isn't doing any of this for Ogden! Once he gets 400 'educated, smart' people to purchase a 'footprint' in his 'gated community'....he'll be happy., and looking for the next deal.
What happened to the Hispanic Center at 24th and Monroe? I thot that could be modeled after Olvera Street in Los Angeles. Something unique for everyone while celebrating the Hispanic culture of OLD Mexico. NOT a gang bangers hang out.
Are you suggesting that Peterson build that too?
Why can't he just build his gondola to his basin., as first proposed...and all the skiers and tourists can take the bus to the mouth of the canyon to board HIS gondola?
Try that for a couple years and see if all those tourists driving by on I-15 will detour in here to ride the thing....IF so, then he will have something concrete to show us.
It will be interesting to see if the first proposal and unveiling by Peterson at one pm is the same at 6 pm on the 19th. It may get better with the retelling.
Was this the biggest public meeting in recent memory? It certainly was the largest that I have seen in a long time in good old Emeral City! This includes the recent election cycle where the biggest crowds were only a quarter of what this one was. I also heard through the grape vine that this turn out was at least four times as large as Lift Ogden's recent rah rah party. Can any one tell the real tale on this?
I thought it a bit racuous! Not nearly as much as I would have liked however! It was a polite crowd for the most part. I take my hat off to the Smart Growth Ogden folks who put it on. They did a mighty fine job of putting butts in seats, and they excelled at their organization and presentation. The Judge bit was perfect, the judge was perfect and the decorum was maintained. (nothing like real people playing real parts in a real drama!) Speaking of real people, I absolutely loved the ex-lawyer "Sandy" woman. She was so together and on target - and non inflamatory!
Just something about smart, informed and on top of it women that turns me on! I actually started to fall in love with this wonderful, intelligent and ringless on the ring finger creature until she talked about her magnificant and much beloved husband in the audience!
The Smart Growth folks seem pretty smart to me. They maintained their focus on a fair and sane approach to the growth problem's that Ogden is facing. They did not go into gondola bashing, they stayed respectful and thoughtfull. Again I congradulate these people whoever they are.
What I loved the most of the evening was the people in attendance. It was literally an overflow crowd. I guessed 400 people. They were spilling out of the doors and into the halls. They were polite, intelligent, attentive and open to the subject. Most of all there was the pervasive feeling of calling BS on all of this secretive game playing stuff that the gondolist's have been propogating these last few months. That wonderful mass of Emerald City's finest folks seemed to be recalling good old Clara Peller's refrain from long ago - "Where's the beef?"
So Mr Lord Mayor, and Mr. Rich Son in Law - Where exactly is the beef?
Further proof, Curm, that you should be out next mayor!
Mutch:
I have a question. You suggest offering Peterson a compromise of some sort that would preserve what Ogdenites most want preserved [say the park and the trails above it and gondola-less streets from downtown to WSU] but that would also give Peterson the opportunity to develop, profitably, a more limited,more city-and-mountain friendly Alpine Village resort in Malan's basin, and a small commercial Alpine Village-y hub [shoppes, restaurants, and some residential/vacation homes etc] at the gondola base at/near WSU. Or some variation of that.
For the sake of discussion, let's grant for the moment that that is a good idea. My question is this. Since Peterson is negotiating with the city, and more particularly, with the Mayor and no one else that I'm aware of [outside of WSU administration and regents], who would/could/should present such a compromise plan to him? He's not negotiating with anyone but the Mayor and U. administration. Who else could possiblly negotiate some kind of viable compromise [presuming one exists] that would give each side much, but not all, of what it wants? Certainly the Mayor won't, and the U. can negotiate only for its own property, not the city property. Who has enough oompf [and if that isn't a word, it should be] to present a compromise plan to Peterson with any prayer of having it taken seriously?
Sharon, I was proposing that as an alternative to selling the whole golf course. He needs a base and a properly designed base will have some shops or as he has proposed on the WSU land a dorm village. I don't necessarily like that idea but I think he was just trying to appeal to WSU and provide a unique village atmosphere in which to live your college years. These same students are also good candidates for employment at his Malans village. You suggest bus transit until his resort proves it's need. Fair enough as long as money is set aside from whatever deal is made to fund transit. Building His resort without a transit plan, either cross town gondola or streetcar or FLEETS of busses. It os bound to create enough traffic to make things miserable in an area already suffering.
If we look at Downtown and WSU as Core areas of our city it may seem a little more logical to connect them via Gondola than creating a 3 mile streetcar zone which demands increased zoning density along it's route to make it viable. Not sure Ogden is ready for MORE areas of increased density.There is a vacuum in the downtown after all. I think that is why the mayor is attempting to isolate growth and investment to these existing cores of business, health care and education. No where in any streetcar redevelopments can I find ONE that is 3 miles long as a single transit route.
Curmudgeon, I agree that I do not know where these compromises can be channeled but if enough were to consider options there will likely be a venue to air them soon instead of blind opposition. I'm sure Chris Peterson will welcome any civil input.
Mutch, thank you for your reply.
When I heard Peterson speak...he said 2000 dorms DOWNTOWN! Also, having students find employment at the Basin doesn't seem like a practical solution to these kids working...unless on breaks, and summer. Too far away for one thing for most students who need to work close by, do homework, and get home! Just wondering how practical it is to suppose that Peterson is offering employment solutions to a large number of kids.
Also, his '2000' dorm rooms sounds like he threw that in as you suggest to appeal to WSU admin. Isn't there a 20% vacancy rate on campus now?
I'm concerned about the mudslide issue on top of so many other concerns. Look at So. Weber AND Farmington, which has had that problem more than once...Riverdale, CA...so many questions to be addressed.
Having been in attendance at the Mt. Ogden Community Meeting, I can factually state that most people DID speak intelligently. They basically voiced their opposition. The one that I would question, who may not have spoken intelligently, was Bob Geiger, asmostly everything I heard coming from him was plain old hear-say, that came from the boss.
On making downtown Ogden more attractive to visitors:
One thing has puzzled me since I moved here. Downtown has some good eateries, and I frequent them, but Ogden seems to have no place to eat with a view of the mountains. The view from downtown is, most of the time, heart-stoppingly beautiful. [Take in a ball game some evening at Lindquist Park and look up.] Odd that there is no rooftop restaurant, or even one with a deck with a good view of the mountains. I wonder if, as residents, we kind of take that view for granted and don't recognize it as the asset it is. Or should be.
I know the old Ben Lomand used to have a rooftop restaurant, and I know the owners are renovating the hotel now, trying to take it back as close as possible to its opening day splendor. But I gather they are not planning to bring back the rooftop restaurant.
Well, somebody should open one. Be a good place [provided the food was good... you can't eat a view] to bring guests, visitors, business contacts, and family. Mrs. Curmudgeon and Grandma Curmudgeon have both noticed the same thing, and since both are olympic-class eating-out marathoners [god help me], I tend to take their views on what might be a good idea in an eatery seriously.
Seems kind of silly for downtown not to maximize one of its major assests: the drop dead gorgeous views of Mt. Ogden and Ben Lomond. And the view change with the seasons, the time of day, and the weather. Never the same twice.
Just an idea.... since nobody seems to have acted on my previous suggestion to refurbish one of the old Two Bit Street buildings that housed a brothel in period furniture [from brothel days] and open it as a tourist attraction and B and B.
The more I think about Scott Schwebke's coverage of this meeting, the more irritated I become. In addition to terming the applause "raucous," he wrote that Grant Maw "bellowed to the crowd."
“People have been voted out of office,” Grant Maw, of Ogden, bellowed to the crowd. “I think that they ought to be voted out, too. They don’t care what’s going to happen to us.”
I did not notice anything different in the decibel level of Mr. Maw's remarks from that of the other speakers. Mr. Maw spoke forcefully and with conviction. He also enunciated clearly and we could understand him, which I look at as a plus.
There was nothing in the article about Sandra Crosland's excellent opening, which emphasized "reasonableness." Nothing about the fact that SmartGrowth had asked an impartial mediator, Judge David Roth, to chair.
Of course, the words "reasonableness" and "impartial" do not quite blend with the impressions of raucousness and bellowing. But I think these things also should have been mentioned in the interests of good reporting, even if they did not fit with Mr. Schwebke's overall impression of the meeting, which, by the way, is much different from mine.
Well now Curmudgeon, there you go again!
Do you have some secret little electric gizmo that keeps you un-nervingly on point?
It is sad that the gondolists keep coming up with this tired old line of - "well if you don't like our pie in the sky, where is your's? Where is your great ideas to "turn" Ogden around? (the basic premise of course being that somehow Ogden needs turning around - a premise I think is so much bunk!)
So there you go again Mr. Curmudgeon, you come up with another good idea, and you can bet your bippy that the gondola cultists will not recogize it, and will continue their tired old nay sayer songs late into the evening.
One vista you failed to mention is the absolutely spectacular view one gets of the mountains from the Rodeo Stands on a late July afternoon and early evening while you wait with great anticipation the goring of the rodeo clowns as they do their death defying stunts in front of a two thousand pound pissed off bulls with a tight leather strap cinching in their groins and some monkey on his back.
Don't get me wrong, I luvs the Rodeo, except maybe some of the outright cruelty. I especially like the pretty Rodeo Queens as they spin around the grounds at full gallop, standing tall in their stirrups, and waving that eternally silly little from the wrist wave to the crowd!
The whole Rodeo is a great Ogden tradition and I whole heartedly recommend every one go every chance they get. By the way, our councilman Glasmann's father was a long time official with the Ogden Rodeo association and was responsible for many thousands of hours of great entertainment for the citizens of Ogden. Something in the Glasmann genes I guess, being that the current Glasmann has, and still does, give so much to Ogden arts and entertainment.
Also, as I remember the "Top of the Town" on Ben Lomond Hotel, the view was to the west and north (including Mt. Ben Lomond), not the east and Mount Ogden mountains. In any event, it was a spectacular view, especially in the evening during sunsets after a couple of Coors.
Grandma Curmudgeon? Sounds pretty spectacular to me! A whole Curmudgeon family to make the land of Oz that much better! Are there any little Curmudgeons? Cousin Curmudgeons? Uncle and Aunt Curmudgeons? Grand Curmudgeons?
If you play your cards right and multiply with fidelity, you may have your own Planet Curmudgeon some day! I wonder what Disney land would be like in such a place?
Dian:
Exactly. The crack about "bellowed" was editorializing, plain and simple, in what should have been straight reportage. You are absolutely right. The SE owes Mr. Maw an apology.
No mention either of the man who said he would pick up the travel costs for the entire City Council to visit Boulder to at least look at another vision, another way, another option. I thought that was kind of remarkable.
I hate to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but I am waffling back and forth between the view that Mr. Schwebke is simply a lazy and not very good reporter on the one hand, and the view that he and his editors are in the Mayor's pocket [so to speak] on the other, and are operating the SE as the House organ for the Godfrey administration.
Mayor Curmudgeon..........such a nice ring to that.............
Well there you go again Curmudgeon, that is a grand idea. I've noticed the same thing. When you get into downtown the view of the mountains is quite obscured by buildings or tall trees. It sometimes makes you forget how spectacular is the backdrop to our city.
Some have commented that riding in the gondola east up 23rd St. and south on Harrison is hardly a sight seeing dream. Then you posted this and it reminded me that the gondola towers will have you riding along about 30-40' above ground. If you sit in any rooftop restaurant it is true the ugly view from the ground is obscured and the panorama takes over. The same effect is evident from a gondola cabin. You would think the view over a boulevard would be less than satisfying but when elevated anywhere to treetop level the larger picture takes over and it is spectacular. So when the gondola is built instead of paying 40 bucks for lunch for 2 in a downtown businessman's rooftop club you can pack a sack lunch and ride the gondola from downtown to the mountains in the time it takes to have that rooftop lunch. Then take a walk around cool Malan's Basin on that hot summer afternoon. Have a cold one in Chris's Tavern posthike and head back downtown for a movie at Larry(The Censor)M's. Not a bad way to spend any summer afternoon. Sometimes I might take my mountain bike up there or maybe up to the bench for a leisurely coast through town.
It was really the town leg of the gondola that had least appeal to me but your comment finally hit the home run.
Some have said after the novelty wears off no one will ride this thing. Those kind of activities are hardly novelty any more than a visit to our mountains is some kind of novelty. You can keep going back. If I worked downtown I'd be heading up there every afternoon to wind down or at least grab the clubs and play a round at Chris's Uptown Links at municipal rate. In fact our downtown business folk will probably not be getting much work done except by wi-fi while riding to and from the course on the gondola.
Ah, nice try, Mutch. But no sale.
You can see the mountains from lots of places downtown. You just can't do it while you're having a meal, which was the point of my suggestion. You don't need to climb into a gondola to do it. The notion that someone would have to spend $40 bucks on a rooftop restaurant just to see the mountains from downtown is laughable. May I politely suggest you get out of your limo now and then and look around?
I also note that your paen of praise for the downtown to WSU gondola treats it as an exclusively recreational ride. Which is at least honest of you. Makes you more honest than the mayor on this [though I admit, that's not setting the honesty bar very high] since Hizzonah keeps pretending the gondola is not only a, but the best mass transit option for the city.
Poor Mutch. Trying so hard to pass as an independent-minded middle-grounder, but the mask keeps slipping....
This NOYES guy makes it all sound so simple, doesn't he. Easy on-Easy off; take a ride to the MB for an afternoon wlak or play a round at the new golf course for a very reasonable fee. Just like young Geiger said the other night at Wasatch. Except that he was allegedly relaying words from Chris Peterson, just like the Noyes guy wants us to think he's right in the know, down and dirty, with the gondola "movers & shakers."
Hells bells, there's SOOOO much to be donw before anybody "Tees it up" at the new links or catches a nice, air conditioned ride, up beautiful 23rd St in late June, so as to see the sunset from the Malan's Basin overhang. A nice stroll while others in Dodge are eating dinner in an "upscale" businessman's Night Club.
Good gawd! Where do these people come from?
Yo Ogdenite:
They come from an orbit somewhere between Mars and Venus. I think the place is currently hidden behind the comet Hale Bobb. You have to be into the current street drugs to find this magic place.
Keep looking, every thing there is pure milk and honey, and the streets are paved with gold. Bobby G. can probably show you the secret hand shake that will get you in...
Just what we want to do to show off Ogden's great tourist attractions: Make some peanut butter sandwiches and have the out of town visitors climb into a gondola and eat between the 'hub' and WSU....what if they aren't fast eaters? Can they sit in the gondola til they finish? Do they put the sandwiches and pop back into the sack and jump off?
We're all for dining out with visitors and trying to save a dollar or two WHILE enjoying a lovely sunset or view of the mountains, but is having a sandwich or burger in the gondola the way to do it?
I can imagine that Godfrey or Peterson OR we the taxpayers (whomever has invested the most money in the "Project) will post a "no eating while in transit" sign in the gondolas. What a mess underfoot from a family of little kids!
These LiftOgden CAVE People have a skewered view of reality. For the most part, Ogdenites are NOT millionaires able to leave work and the office to hop into the gondola, ride to the beautiful, redesigned golf course, play 18, (at 'reasonable rates" HAH), ride up to Malan's for dinner and a hike, chug a cold one, ride back down to the 'city' and take in a censored or uncensored movie at the yet to be signed on the dotted line, Miller Movie Complex!
Most people are hard working folks who will take the kids on a gondola once in their lifetimes, IF the thing is shoved down our throats through chicanery and underhanded dealings between Godfrey, Allen, Geigers and Peterson. Not ONE person I've spoken with about the gondola thinks this is a smart way to revitalize downtown. They laugh (derisively) when told about all the carloads of people going to Yellowstone who will automatically veer off the freeway to ride the gondola! What do they do then? We all were told 'they will come' when the gym and bowling alley were anchoring the mall. THAT would be Ogden's salvation and big draw to all those businesses that had told the mayor they would relocate or open their busineses here once the mall was 'anchored' by these two HUGE draws! Well, Matt's big idea sure is going forward at a dizzying pace, isn't it? I can see why we have to have the gondola right now: the mall construction is almost ready for retail occupancy (wink wink) and all those store owners just have to have a little R & R after a full day of dealing with hundreds of thousands of tourists crowding into the mall every day.
Didn't Godfrey's mother teach him to finish one job before starting another? Did she teach him not to lie? Not to be sneaky? Was he taught to feed the dog and leave fresh water for it every day before he went to school? Was he taught to be responsible for and to the ones who depend on him?
Does he have any inkling what a MAYOR should do for the citizens? Is it important to him that some of his people have unsafe water coming through old rusted pipes? Is he concerned that some streets in the inner city flood when the prolonged rains come? Is he concerned about the influx of ILLEGALS here who drain our resources and commit so many crimes? BTW, the police chief said 'they' aren't allowed to ask if a criminal is legal or illegal." How about leading the charge on that, Matt?
How about growing up, Matt and minions? Real mayors tackle and solve real problems and make life better for their townsfolk.
Private businesses should put their own dough into THEIR enterprises.
I listened to former Mayor OATES of Harrisville say that for three years he turned down WalMart's requests for money so they would build. WalMart finally decided they would build without concessions from the city, after all. Now, he said, the folks from No. Ogden, Pleasant View and Farr West shop there....and Harrisville reaps the benefits, without ponying up concessions from the city. "I wonder if he would move here and be our mayor?" I asked my companion. In fact, there were several speakers (at "Meet the Candidates" at WSU) with great track records of fiscal conservatism and progressive thinking, that I wished would be our mayor! Kind of like the orphan who asks, "will you be my daddy?"
No, Mutch...I don't think much of your posturing as a reasonable fellow who can see both sides. In my experience, the LiftOgden folks just speak out of both sides of their mouths, depending on whom they wish to deceive with made-up 'facts' and Godfrey and Peterson's visions and delusions.
What's in it for you? Other than a midday ride to the golf course and to Malan's for dinner...what are you getting out of this?
BTW...if so many go to Malan's Alpine Village for culinary delghts, what will that exodus do to the OGDEN restaurant owners businesses?
It's a sorry mess, and if the Council doesn't kill this nonsense SOON, then I say we have a referendum at a special election, and this time, let the people speak!! Where are the petitons? We want to sign!
And, yes, I have some ideas for Ogden, another day.
Glum and Abner:
Man that's some sad commentary.
So you don't like the idea of a bike ride(coast-a-thon), sack lunch while enjoying a gondola ride(we do it all the time at Snowbasin), evening walk and cold one, kids riding on the gondola, a movie and a stroll downtown, etc. You think only the rich can live this way. Living this way is done by choice not by wealth. You think I ride in a limo? It's a 98 Subaru stretch with a blown head gasket. It sounds like it is your fantasies running wild while you grumble about anyone else's pursuit of happiness(it's in the declaration of independence).
You ask what's in it for me??? You have to be kidding. I just laid it out...I'll spell it out. You get on a bike... take a ride with your kids and enjoy life. It's really that easy. My kids rode used bikes, snowboard gear and wore used clothes. That is how you live rich in America on a low income. You don't go to the corner convenience mart for daily slushies and cigarettes.
I expect Dian will be posting about tonight's council work session at which the OLS [aka Hizzonah The Mayor] presented [with few details] "the plan"... sort of. Though he did admit he expects he will be seeing things at the WSU presentation next week by Peterson that he's never seen before. And he did say nothing is yet fixed, the whole thing is "very much a work in progress." [English translation: we can expect him to keep moving the goal posts whenever it's convenient for him or Peterson or the Lift Ogden crowd.]
But, while waiting for Dian's comments, permit me to list an observation or two of my own.
There was some news. Councilman Safsten, I think, asked if the gondola was going to run over anyone's house. The OLS [Mayor] said no. However, he did reveal that the new configuration for the downtown to WSU gondola has it running along the west side of Harrison, not down the middle of the street as the mock-up pictures he's been circulating for months show. Right through homeowners' front yards. That was new.
And the OLS [Hizzonah] has really mastered the art of doublespeak. He kept describing the 400 homes to be built on Mt. Ogden golf course and city land this way: "he [Peterson] is going to cluster them to create open space." Think about that. The land has nothing on it now. He's going to build 400 houses on it , but cluster them to "create" open space on land that is now totally undeveloped. Kafka is alive and well and living in Ogden.
The major pitch is clearly going to be "approve this plan, in toto, or your property taxes will go up a hundred dollars a year, every year, forever." Get ready for it.
The pitch involved a huge over-estimation of what it would cost to build the trolley line, along with a huge overestimate of the time it will take to get money approved and start construction [decade and a half, he says] and a wild under-estimation of how much it will cost to build the downtown to WSU leg of the gondola [$5 million]. I talked with former city officials who consider that number a pipe dream. So do I.
Curmudgeon:
OLS?
Old Lazy Shit? Over leveredged scoundrel? Obnoxious Little Squirt? Obscene Little Shit, cummon Curm, don't keep us hanging here.
Coming from you, I just know I am going to love it.
Mutch....YOU said pack a lunch and ride the gondola to save $40. on a dinner for two.
I'm not against the happiness derived from riding bikes (new, used, rented or borrowed), enjoying the trails, and a picnic lunch. Sounds fun.
I do think that touting this goofy gondola scheme as a BIG tourist attraction is wrong! Peterson and the OLS (whatever great name that stands for) have not come up with one verifiable and concrete FACT, feasibility plan, nor has anything been shown the folks who will end up paying for this pipe dream. Portland, OR 'officials' told those hapless schmucks that their gondola would be FIFTEEN MILLION....last count...still unfinishe... the price tag was FIFTY SEVEN MILLION. You think you're poor now? Wait til you and every other taxpayer gets the bill. Your Subaru won't be the only thing with a blown gasket!
Also am waiting with bated breath for definition of OLS.
Yes, tonight's meeting was....informational. Will throw out a few tidbits. Here is how the gondola will work under the current proposal:
Ogden City will build and own the "urban gondola." This will be financed by the sale of Mount Ogden Golf Course and also by a consortium of local businessmen. Lift Ogden, I assume.
Chris Peterson will be responsible for all the maintainance on all gondolas.
If the land from WSU is not sold to Peterson, there will be no project, no gondola, no cluster housing, nothing, nada.
Although the trails will remain, some will be changed a great deal, (as in leveling and smoothing,) and more will be added. This was a stipulation the Mayor made--that more be added. A gondola stop will be at the top of waterfall canyon, and a new trail will be added there so that people can walk down by the waterfall, for example.
Gondola will go:
From intermodal hub to second floor of large hotel built at The Junction. Through there, and up 23rd Street. Turn right.
Proceed along west side of Harrison to WSU. Stop here was unclear to me---"by the campus core," (of buildings,) I think. End of Urban Gondola.
Mountain Gondola begins above WSU(? perhaps walking is involved here between stations, but am not sure--maybe it's right there,) to go to resort and up the mountain.
Yet another leg, (I will call it the ridgeleg,) will go along the top of the ridge. From the station at this leg, one can ski down into SnowBasin.
Gondola can operate in wind up to 35 mph.
There will be little, if any, parking at WSU for those interested only in the Mountain Gondola. Parking will be downtown at the intermodal hub.
Resort will be "roadless" resort. Absolutely no roads. Access will be on foot or by gondola. Sewage will be handled in innovative way with its own treatment plant--no sewage pipes will be run. Water from treatment plant can then be reused, and sludge will be sent down the mountain by gondola.
Electricity will have to be run up the side of the mountain.
Chris Peterson will build new water tanks. Ours up there are too low anyway. When he does this, city will piggyback onto those tanks somehow and our water supply will be higher on the mountain, giving water pressure to those who have problems with this now.
Police would have to go in on horseback or by gondola.
Ski runs would be on north side, through the tall pines.
Feel free to add or correct, Curmudgeon, and others who attended. There's more, of course.
It would be just my luck to get the last gondola car....the one that just carried the sludge down the mountain. Oy vey...and going up, I'd probably have to enter the one where the family with hots of little kids were eating peanut butter sandwiches.
How much does it cost and how long does it take to run electricity up the mountain? How much do wter tanks cost?
What if a gruesome crime or other EMERGENCY took place UP there and one had to wait for the cadre of emergency and police personnel on horseback OR gondola....what safety is being provided the citizens of said emergency?
Which will come first: the hotel with pass-through 2nd floor or the gondola?
OR, better yet??? A new mayor?
AND his mouth???
Oh, I'm having a demon vision: Bobby is running for mayor on a platform of implementing Godfrey's visions.
Let us pray for OLD people to go to the polls.
Jennifer
It won't be egg that the dumb little shit eater will be wiping off his face!
Did you also get a look at his "posse" that hung around both Geiger's like a bad smell? Late teens and early 20's, all looked like they needed a bath, all cheering and clapping when young Bob and the other lift Ogden baffoon got up and praddled on about this idiotic dream of theirs.
It is very doubtful if there is any of them that has ever paid taxes, or contributed one iota to the welfare of Ogden. They are just a bunch of young spongers that are taking the lead of the older spongers like the Allen's and Geiger's that are trying to lay the cost of this idiotic scheme off onto the tax payers. This whole group is a disgrace to Ogden. How can any one with any self respect continually try to pawn off the costs of their own trills onto some one else? How can any one with any class appoint themselves as the decision makers that knows what is best for everyone else, and then sets off on a course of deceit to try and implement their stupid ideas? There isn't an honest or honorable one in the whole bunch, and that includes the alledged officer and gentleman. Semper Fi my ass, is this the way an always faithfull Marine acts? Not hardly.
I was there at the meeting the other night, and I am not yet 30. There were a lot of younger people there, and they didn't seem to like this idea any better than I do. So I don't know where this punk gets off stating it was only a bunch of old people who oppose this crap. Every one that I have talked to that has any sense at all thinks this is the dumbest idea they have ever seen.
The Fair Jenifer:
Ahem.
I prefer the term "mature" to "old."
Forget it SO VERY GLUM TOO...Curm is our next mayor!!!!!
Let's face it folks. Life is a continuing learning experience.
The older you are, the more you know.
We invite people of more age and experince to chime in on this.
Now that your humble bogger is pushing sixty, he's surprised he's lived this long. He's built up considerable life experience in the process of growing older, and wonders whether "little Bob" will experience a similar awakening somewhere down the road.
I can still ski the legs off most young skiers, but when I fall down at high speed... my brittle bodyparts break. I have two broken high-speed-fall injury-related fractured shoulders and a broken back to prove it.
Like Bob G., I thought I was the smartest man in the world at the age of thirty. With almost 30 years' perspective, I now realize I was a snot-nosed dumbass then.
Youngsters like Bob G. should listen to their elders, physically brittle though they may be.
As an aside, curiously, no world philosopher ever mentions the "wisdom of youth."
On a somewhat related topic, I've heard some people say that Ogden has the potential to be like Park City. Good heavens, I hope Ogden never becomes like Park City. I'm having a hard enough time as it is trying to find a decent place to rent in Ogden that's affordable.
Actually, today I drove around the Mount Ogden neighborhood, and I was glad to see so many Smart Growth Ogden signs that say "ask questions." Funny, someone over on thegoodinOgden blog asked several very relevant questions about the whole gondola/golf course/resort proposal, and the only response back was "well, e-mail the mayor." Nice cop-out, eh?
The whole Resort / Gondola scam is a smoke screen. Peterson just wants to develop the Mt Ogden gated Community area. He will make millions, Godfrey will make a ton of money and the Ogden residents will be screwed again by the shrimp.
How the hell can Peterson build a roadless resort by shipping the parts to build it in a tiny little Gondola?
Smells like a rotten deal to me.
How many employees do the Giegers really employ in Ogden City? I know Decente is a big company, but they act like they have a huge financial contribution to the community. How bout it Bobby, how many people do you really employ? What is your actual dollar amount that you contribute to the City of Ogden?
Centerville Citizen, If you are having a hard time finding a decent and affordable place to rent here, I have news for you, You are about to be priced out of this universe.
Ogden offers more decent rentals than any town I have EVER seen. Rental rates are lower here than ANYWHERE. Whatever do you expect to find.
While Ogden's rentals are super affordable this is by no means a sign of a healthy economy. It reflects a vacuum, a glut of vacant property. I suggest you lock in todays rates with a good long lease. The gondola project will not only bring up the economy but also bring UP Ogden's real estate to respectable levels. I bought now, you should too. If you do not buy in Ogden now I suggest you go look in the midwest or the rust belt. Values there I believe may rival Ogden's. You'll be leaving the mountain west though. There is no where in this region that is this affordable. Go ahead take a drive to ELKO or WINNEMUCCA or EVANSTON or....I'm sure you'll dig the ambience. You'll pay more for a home though.
How the hell can Peterson build a roadless resort by shipping the parts to build it in a tiny little Gondola?
Anonymous, Brush up on your engineering friend. They have been building mega projects like this for at least a century using lifts. Most of the infrastructure that you enjoy today is as a result of lifts. Hoover Dam, Glen Canyon Dam, Magna Copper Pit, Tall buildings etc. You think they did all that stuff with just roads and trucks.
As for police response, I am sure if one is needing assistance in Malan's basin you will be glad that the police or EMT can be there in 10 or 15 minutes thanks to the gondola. You wouldn't want to wait for them to grind up a taylor canyon access road. No doubt a remote resort like that will have on hand the heavy stuff for emergency personnel so that they can travel light on calls.
Hey Mutch -
You're right, rent in Ogden is cheaper than compared to anywhere else in the area, but when you're a WSU sophomore with a part time income, not everything is affordable. But I'd imagine that at the end of the semester there'll be more places available and more roommates wanted, but right now the pickin's are a little slim.
Hey, Mutch, welcome back.
It is a kind of Catch-22. If [for the sake of argumnt] the Godfrey/Peterson/Geiger/Allen scheme works as advertised, Ogden will cease to be an affordable place to live for anyone other than those already living here who own their homes. And even some of those, if this does become the "new Park City" or the "next Aspen" or "another Vail" [all have been promised by the Junta depending on who is being pitched at the moment], property values will skyrocket, which maans property taxes will go up along with them, at some point almost inevitably forcing out some retirees and others on fixed incomes who won't be able to pay them. That has happened elsewhere. I know, I know, everything comes with a price. But this does kind of mitigate the Mayor's warning that without the gondola/gondola plan, property taxes will rise, que no?
Hey Much Noyse, I'm pretty sure he's not going to pay for the type of lift system used to build a Huge project like Hoover dam. And is a hell-uv-alot different than an on site crane to build a skyscraper. I know what I am talking about. If the project compares to Hoover then it will be a multi billion dollar project in todays dollars. My point is that the Money is in the golf course.....
Police or EMT can be there in 10 or 15 minutes thanks to the gondola.
Well then you better hope you dont have to wait that long for the help to get there, I just took a American Red Cross course, try brain dead in 6 minutes.
Any one been to Moab lately? The Gondola is out of service there.
How long before the Godfrey Memorial Gondola goes tits-up?
From looking over notes from last night:
I think, but am not sure, that Mayor Godfrey denied that he was telling companies that the gondola was "a done deal." I have this quote: "We told them where it was at and what would have to happen for it to occur.
The mayor stated that companies interested in relocating to downtown Ogden showed an interest in the gondola. He spoke of the high tech world and its "best and brightest," and that they would be able to "...walk across the street, hop on a gondola, and ski on their lunch break."
"There is not another urban center in the country connected to a ski resort."
Said that streetcars were not a good transportation alternative because they go 20 mph and hold up traffic. They pull over to the curb and thereby cut down on parking. A streetcar circling the downtown area would, however, be a good idea. Does not like the idea of riding a bus to the upper gondola, because a bus ride is not the "experience" he needs to sell companies on Ogden.
Bill Glasmann asked if he had any idea as to how the sequence of the buildout to the gondolas, resort, and development would occur, and the Mayor's answer was that "Everything has to happen together."
IF the goofy Godgrey Legacy is forced on the po' folks....Ogden will be a ghost town. Buy now, as Mutch urges. Ghost towns make great tourist attractions!
I think the taxpayers will revolt by heading out to a more sane city.....even a new, fiscally conservative, moral and progressive mayor will have a *&^$%#@! of a time attempting to straighten out the OLS mayor's mess.
Rudi, be very very careful if you ski at the slushy Malan's Basin....if you crack your back or shoulders again, you may wait a long time to have the medical help you require.
Can you imagine sludge being "gondolad" down the mountain...and put WHERE? Did you say, "bend over Matt?"
It's so heartening to see so many citizens up in arms over the scheming of the Geigers', Allens', Gdfrey, and Peterson (and more). It's exciting to hear 'Young" people speaking up! And, the 'mature' crowd.
You knew bobby was a kid the first time you read one of his foul mouthed, pouty postings here.
It doesn't get better in person either. Any organization that has a kid like Bob G doing its PR is not to be taken seriously. Chris Peterson will have to do better on the 19th than he did at their LiftOgden private (but open to the public) meeting couple weeks ago. He was so embarrassing to listen to. He and Matt didn't give the folks ONE FACT or reassurance that this isn't a pyramid scheme, as some arund me were grumbling.
How many petitions are circulating now? We'll take some around. Make the pick-up location known.
BTW, Elko bacame a BOOM town when Barrick Goldstrike Mine opened up operations there about 16 years ago. People were living in tents, campers and paying exorbitant rents for chicken coops.
Maybe Matt could open a dream mine here? And we can all buy shares?
Evanston was a boom town when the price of gas hit $1.00 per gallon. Five years later the economy was lower than whale shit. Try skiing on a west/north facing ski slope. It's not slushey, it's pure Ice, no matter how much you groom it.
The money is in the lower valley golf course development scam.
C'mon, Bobby how many people do you really employ in Ogden Besides Daddy and yourself? Do you have a payroll of one million? What is it?
In reference to everything happening together, obviously the "materiel moving gondola" would have to be built before the roadless resort. That is one part of sequence that we know, at least.
One of the reasons I attended this last night was because of the bizarre quality present in watching the mayor of a city pitch a developer's proposal to the city council. And it was a pitch. In fact, in doing this, it was as if he were acting as an agent for Chris Peterson, or as his representative. Not my idea of what a mayor should be doing, as you know.
He ended by saying that we all must sacrifice. That the budget every year needed more and more cuts, and that we must face the choice between higher taxes or cuts in services, and touted this project as a way to get us out of that spot.
I do not think that we all must sacrifice. Not one bit.
In fact, a few months ago, Larry Miller was going to save us from all this, as I recall. Where is he, anyway? Anyone know the status of The Junction project? This too was supposed to get us out of the mess we're in.
"Everything has to happen together"....hahaha, I laugh at your face!
Isn't that what the little lord said about the wreck center/bowling alley? It all had to happen 'together' so ALL those businesses he had swooning to come here, could enjoy the flow rider and climbing wall post haste? Didn't he say 'use it or lose it' over the $7.3 million bucks that had to be spent on the bowling alley/gym by Dec 31...2005? Does having a photo op groundbreaking' count as starting construction?
This little puke and entourage are liars.
Godfrey, in my HUMBLE opinion, is corrupt and corruptible.
How will the hotel with gondola pass through, enormous ugly towers, gated housing complex, village with shops and restaurants near WSU, the 'footprint" home pads, reconfigured golf course, redesinged trails,and moving gondolas all come together AT THE SAME TIME? Did I leave something out?
Oh, let's not forget Miller's Mega Movie Complex....That should be erected any day now, right?
Oh yeah, and all those new businesses will be springing up along the gondola route EVEN THOUGH THE DAMN THING WON'T BE STOPPING BETWEEN THE HUB AND WSU!!!
We need to run this little napoleon out of town on a rail!
Informed sources tell us that Larry Miller isn't coming. He's in financial straits with his existing "empire," and he isn't investing in anything "new" for the duration, until he sorts thing out.
You can take that to the bank.
It really is the same story, isn't it?
About The Junction site, we were told that the old mall had to be knocked down because developers were lining up to come in there, and knocking down the mall would make great economic things happen.
Years passed.
Then we are told that we must have the rec center, because Miller won't come in without it, and Boyer won't come in without Miller, etc., (might have gotten that wrong, but that is the jist of it, that "all had to happen together."
Yet another all or nothing deal.
And from what I hear now, Peterson is saying that without the WSU land and the golf course the development and gondola won't happen--he has to have it all together, and then it has to all happen together, and it will make our economy boom.
How does it go? "Fool me once, shame on you..."
We should put the brakes on and go one at a time with these development things. We have those rec center development bonds floating around out there and no activity on site that I can see. If that project is having severe problems, or is a wash, it's madness to get in over our heads with another one on top of it.
Not a rail for the lord mayor...how about a one way ticket outta town on a UTA bus....just for the 'experience'??? An elitist should enjoy that....give him a sack lunch too. Or would that be SACKED lucnch?
The only thing left to sell is body parts, we've hawked the mall site, incumbered the revenue from BDO, selling the golf course, Hi Kev. Every time we turn around it's another do or die deal. Mayor Godfrey is out of control. The Council needs to pull the plug on this fruit cake Mayor.
Another Anonymous....how many anonymouses are out there? Are you clones?
You are so reasonable with your asking questions, and not buying into the gondola scheme just yet. You are concerned about schools and jobs for your children...but, the rest of your epistle is a pitch for the Peterson/Godfrey scheme.
You spoke politely (that usually doesn't happen with an Anon.) but your bias is transparent.
It sounds as if you are sold on the gondola and have inside information. Dian, our intrepid girl reporter, who always gets her facts straight, didn't give us all the inside info you just did. She attended the same meeting you did. Perhaps you've attended more with Godfrey and his cheerleaders?
Sorry pal, you're on the ground floor of LiftOgden, methinks.
We've been bamboozled over the rec center.....we'll be paying off that fiasco for YEARS, and we taxpayers don't need another pie in the sky looney unique idea to drain us further.
If it's true that Miller isn't coming, then will Boyer pull out too? What excuses will Godfrey give? Blame all those' negative, no new ideas' enemies and hostile Council for chasing away new business?
Let Peterson build his gondola to Malan's....real skiers and tourists wanting to ride a gondola will not mind riding a bus to the mouth of the canyon to board this unique, exciting mode of transpotation. They won't feel like lesser citizens for riding a bus. Only an elitist, head in the clouds, out of touch with the common folk jerk like Godfrey would denigrate bus riders.
Our city is teetering on the verge of bankruptcy. A well run household follows a budget. If the money isn't there for a "want it'....then save til you can afford it. The same principle works for cities.
Remember this? "next time you s---- me...kiss me first."
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