I am surprised our blogmeister overlooked the story in the SE 4th of July edition which contained an excellent example of how the man who insists his integrity is as high or higher than anyone else's in the council chamber [that is, Hizzonah, Mayor Matthew Godfrey] puts that integrity to work.
The story, by Scott Schwebke, reported that the Board of Weber Pathways had issued a statement opposing the sale of Mt. Ogden Golf Course for development as a residential property. The story also reported Mr. Integrity's response when informed of the Weber Pathways Board's decision:
Ogden Mayor Matthew Godfrey said.... he "isn’t surprised by the approval because Weber Pathways’ board is made up largely of Smart Growth Ogden members, who have been vocal in their opposition to Peterson’s proposal. "SE reporter Scott Schwebke, however, was not about to let the Mayor's snit fit rhetoric pass unchecked. The story goes on to point out that Weber Pathway's board has 22 members, and at least 17 voted for the statement that so upset the Mayor. So much for "passed by one vote."
“It’s the same group,” he said. “It passed by one vote, so keep in mind it’s 17 people. It’s not like this group is representing 1,000 people.”
The story also notes that Weber Pathways has 1600 people on its mailing list. So much for "it's not like this group is representing 1000 people."
And the story points out that the Weber Pathways board has on it members of Lift Ogden as well as members of Smart Growth Ogden. [In fact, I believe the WP Board has four members affiliated with Smart Growth Ogden and two affiliated with Lift Ogden. The rest, the overwhelming majority, are not associated with either organization.]
He just can't help himself. Whenever some one or group dares to challenge the Godfrey/Peterson/Geiger Party line, mis-information simply spills from the Mayor effortlessly -- and endlessly.
Integrity at work, Godfrey style.
Comments, anyone?
37 comments:
Read that article too. GOOD on ya, Scott!
That's the kind of reporting we like to see. Just the facts, man.
Keep up the good work.
"Snit fit rhetoric" is on the button, Curm.
Regarding the Pathways vote--evidently they were going for not only a majority, but a two thirds majority and passed that by one vote.
The mayor, remember, wrote to SmartGrowth that he did not want to answer questions because SmartGrowth would "twist" the information.
Dian:
A 2/3 majority of 22 would be 15, so 17 votes would actually surpass a 2/3 majority by 2, not 1.
I heard that the WP motion passed with a single dissenting vote. So when I read what the mayor said, I assumed he was twisting "one dissenting vote" into "passed by one vote". But even if "passed by one vote" was an honest misunderstanding on his part, the mayor bears responsibility for giving out misinformation. Integrity isn't just not making statements that you know to be false--it also requires that you actively seek out the truth and make it known, whether you like it or not.
Just checked the gondola FAQ on the city's web site and the misinformation about the streetcar is still there, as is the claim that the gondola "provides the ability for Snowbasin patrons to use the gondola and not drive to the resort."
Is it just me or is it just plain WRONG for this to be a part of the OFFICIAL OGDEN CITY WEBSITE?! At what point did the CITY OF OGDEN put forth the "..Proposed Gondola Resort"?
Also, Ogden city's portion would, IF IT CAME TO BE AT ALL, the gondola from the Wall Avenue terminal to the base of the proposed resort. Why then the term "Gondola/Resort Project"?
Is the city going to provide a forum for the other side of this issue? Sorry, dumb question - weak moment.
I refuse to believe that our City Council can not put a stop to this (as well of the Channel 17 abuse)! I am afraid that, for whatever reason, they simply refuse!!!
Why don't we just stop wasting money and everyones time by going through useless motions. Just abolish the council and form a FORMAL board of Geigers!!!!
ArmySarge:
You wrote: Is it just me or is it just plain WRONG for this to be a part of the OFFICIAL OGDEN CITY WEBSITE?!
It's not just you. It's just plain wrong.
Thank you. When are we starting your campaign for mayor?
Actually, Dan, it's fourteen and two-thirds people--(sorry, couldn't resist that.) You're probably right with the metamorphosis of one dissenting vote turning into one passing vote. It fits the pattern, in my opinion. But I think the fact of a two-thirds majority is significant, too--not only did it pass, but it passed, as they say, overwhelmingly.
I agree, it is indeed just plain WRONG for that "information" to be on the city website. There are a lot of things just plain WRONG going on in Ogden, not the least being the police and firefighter issue, as well as the city website serenely continuing to state that the gondola will go to Snowbasin, despite the fact that the Snowbasin representative, Clint Ensign, has publicly stated three times that it will do no such thing.
And if we do nothing, and say nothing, that doesn't mean we're "choosing not to be involved." What it means is that we're agreeing with it. By not speaking out against these things, we simply comply with them.
Rudi, thanks so much for this blog.
oh ya great idea, Curmi for mayor.
Veto any possible economic growth for ogden, just because.
Ogden needs to play it safe and keep doing what it has done for the last 50 years. Since we have come so far. That is brilliant. Curmi for mayor! curmi for mayor!
Troll flame removed by administrator
One of the Standard Examiner's web-only letters (Flowers & Darts section) has some interesting information about the impact a gondola would have on Ogden.
Practical consequences of an urban gondola
I have no idea where the writer got his information or how accurate it is, but it is stuff I haven't seen spelled out before.
I hope you guys realize that the gondola is going in and the pessimism that is oozing out of the people that post on this website will not hinder the smart business minded people in Ogden that want to see Ogden go forward as never before. You will not succeed in your hopes to hinder this oportunity. Goodness will prevail.
Dear Willie:
You might want to trot on over to SmartGrowthOgden.org and look around. The notion that those who think the gondola/Malan's Basin scheme is a very poor bet for the city, are against all growth is merely Lift Ogden propaganda. It has no basis in fact. Many of us think there are other proven technologies available that have led to substantial growth in jobs, commerce and property values in other mid sized cities. After you've looked around the SGO site, and can manage more than to chant Lift Ogden talking points, come on back and we'll talk.
Just remember, others have promoted very expensive projects in the past... sure thing silver-bullet couldn't miss projects like the downtown Ogden mall and the Convention Center. And we all know how they turned out.
What's going on here is a disagreement about whether the gondola/Malan's Basin plan is feasible or not, is likely to succeed or not, and about whether there are other plans far more likely to succeed in promoting growth [without selling off 20% of the city's parklands]. As I said, if you can do more than spout Lift Ogden talking points, come back and we'll talk.
Ralph Anderton:
Tell me, are these the same "smart business-minded people" who assured us the Ogden Mall would put Ogden on the retail map again, that it couldn't fail and that even though the voters voted the project down, twice, it was necessary to ignore the nay-sayers and go ahead?
Are these the same "smart busniness-minded people" who told us it was necessary to close down a block of businesses to build an Ogden Convention Center because it would put us on the map and pay for itself over and over?
Are these the same "smart business minded people" who insisted the city needed another four star hotel downtown, a Crown Plaza property, and that it absolutely would not force the Ben Lomand out of business? [The Crown Plaza failed, and the Ben Lomand was forced out of business.]
Saying some, or even many, businessmen are for something does not make the something automatically a wise thing for the city to do. Nor does saying many people are against it make it an unwise thing. Each project, plan, proposal needs to be judged on its own merits [or lack thereof]. Since you LO folks have so far been unable to provide any feasibility studies, marketing studies, etc to back up the pie in the sky predictions, and can only keep chanting the same talking points [sans evidence] over and over, you will forgive those of us who think projects should be evaluated on the basis of evidence, not merely hopes and dreams and wishes, before millions upon millions of public funds are invested in them for not taking you too seriously.
I see that Ralph and Willie have been taking their full prescription of Doctor Godfrey's smart pills. And damned if they ain't working!
As for Weber Pathways 1600 person mailing list. I don't know that I would consider that they represent all or even any of them. I am on the mailing list and I would not consider them to represent me even when we might agree on something. In fact, I would put money on the fact that Matthew Godfrey is on their mailing list. I believe ALL elected officials are.
The Lift Ogden Website has the gondola brochure online. One can click on the sidebar on the left and view the separate pages. Here's a quote from the opening page: What's In It For Me?:
It’s more than just a gondola; this project will increase annual tax revenue by more than $10 million without raising your taxes. Approximately $4 million of that will go directly to Ogden City schools, and the rest to our community. It will create about 1,200 new jobs and generate business bringing more shopping, restaurants and hotels to downtown Ogden. It’s a year-round mountain resort with skiing, hiking, biking, dining, paragliding, and sightseeing that will add miles of new trails and open space...
Lift Ogden Brochure
Arcritic:
On the WP a mailing list and what it means. I think the WP spokesperson was careful to say the 1600 represented the email list, and I agree that not everyone on it could or should be counted as a supporter. I for example was on the Lift Ogden email list for a while and I know of others on it who are not LO supporters. But I think it is fair to say that in all probability most of those who asked to be put on the WP email list are supporters of the organization, just as it is safe to assume, I think, that most of the people who asked to be put on the Lift Ogden list are supporters of that organization.
So, it seems to me that the Mayor has no grounds for claiming WP represents only a handful of people, and nothing like 1000.
The Mayor was annoyed, having a snit fit, and determined to undermine the significance of the WP statement in any way he could... by spouting claims based on ignorance of the facts [if we wish to be charitable] or by deliberately attempting to misinform [if we do not wish to be charitable].
Hizzonah is the Mayor of Ogden and is as entitled to make his case for the gondola/real estate speculation plan as others are to make the case against it. But all involved, and in particular an elected public official, have an obligation... an ethical oblighation... to rest their arguments on facts and evidence, and to avoid, at all times, spreading misinformation even if that misinformation will, they believe, strengthen their case. That's how people with integrity engage in public discussion and debate matters of civic concern.
I think by now it is beyond serious question that the Mayor has not done that, and has in the past and continues to spread misinfromation in the course of trying to sell his associates' real estate speculation plans to the public. The City website for example still says the gondola will connect with Snow Basin Ski Resort. His ill-considered rant to the Standard Examiner is just another example of the same shameful endorsement of misinformation that has become his trademark in this matter.
"
that's how people of integrity..."
Well, duh!
Where, pray tell, is a person of integrity in this tableau?
Sharon:
Well, this ol' mossback thinks public officials bending over backwards to make sure they behave ethically [like providing time on the community tax-supported cable station for a variety of views on matters of public interest] and do not abuse the public trust should be the default position for every public official. It should be the minimum expected.
What saddens me [and at times angers me] is that Mr. Godfrey and his henchmen over at Lift Ogden are not offering up their ideas for public dicussion, are not making a public case for them. They are instead marketing the idea, much in the way you'd market a new girdle ["New! Improved! Now with Centroplex!"] or a patent medicine ["Cures athelete's foot, insomnia, flu and the heartbreak of psoriasis!"] or a used car ["The solution to all your transportation problems at one low price!"]
We expect hucksters and pitchmen to do that, and most of us discount the excessive claims in ads as a matter of course. But to have the Mayor of Ogden presenting a hugely expensive program to the public the way Honest Eddie Carman pitches his wares is disturbing. If the Mayor has a substantive case for this gondola/gondola real estate speculation scheme that would justify the cost and the loss of 20% of the city's park lands, then he ought to make it. Merely chanting over and over "1200 jobs!" or "$10 million in new tax revenue!" without explaining where those numbers came from or how they were derived, without discussing the plans in full, with all the evidence, facts, studies, and the like necessary to support them, without providing some sound basis, backed up by evidence, that the projects are likely to suceed, is not how elected public leaders ought to behave. Not, at least, those who have a good grasp of what ethical conduct requires of public officials.
We should expect ethical conduct by our elected officials. All of them. All the time. And we should demand it when it isn't forthcoming. And be very very suspicious of those in office [or out] who don't seem to understand what ethics --- or integrity, if you prefer --- means for those entrusted with public office.
Unrealistic? I don't think so. I certainly hope not. The success of representative government depends on it not being an unrealistic expectation. If it's not working, it's because we have --- the electorate --- fallen asleep at the switch. We elected Mr. Godfrey. Twice. If we keep on putting up with his idea of how city government should be conducted, we will have, yet again, only ourselves to blame for the consequences.
INTERGRITY, IS JUST LIKE HUMILITY, THE MOMMENT THAT YOU HAVE TO TELL SOME ONE THAT YOU HAVE IT. MEANS YOU PROBABLY DON'T HAVE ANY.
People can usually tell by your actions whether you have it or not.
Dear Curm and See....
Exactly....but it seems y'all are preaching to the choir here.
MOST of us, (A few Anons(?) and a livid LO or two excepted, agree wholeheartedly that we have someone(s) in office who do an awful lot of explaining to the rest of us on just how full of....uh....INTEGRITY, yeah that's it, and humility they are.
I guess they think some of just don't recognize integrity when we see and smell it.
But, keep reiterating on what makes good government...some others who haven't joined the choir yet, just may see your words of wisdom.
Rudi,
Catch the article OGDEN RIVER PARKWAY IN LIMBO in today's SE on Top of Utah front page.
This administration sure is doing it's part in being 'business friendly' eh?
June Robinson, owner of The Cedars, 1967 WA Blvd closed June 16.
She said, "I think they're pretty much screwing everybody."
She had a deal with the property owner to pay $1000. monthly rent on a $2500. lease. Between THEM, remember!
The city took over her lease and dmeanded the full $2500. monthly rent.
Robinson said she will never again consider running a business in Ogden. That sentiment was echoed by Kevin Bryant who was co-owner of a bike shop. Sharon Fernandez owner of the King's Castle Restaurant and bingo venue, i877 WA Blvd also feels she and husbands have not been treated fairly.
"....They can't wait to kick us out.....They were rude. They don't really care."
Well, your benevolent mayor and his A-Team at dirty work again.
How long before the City Council is blamed for this snafu???
Ogden Community Development Manager Bill Wright saidOgden is a good place for people to do business and that businesses are treated fairly and equally.
Bet one could find a lot of good folks who have and are investing in Ogden who find it an uphill battle to survive.
now is the time for the 500,000,000.00 dollar investment to come to Ogdenville, Hey chris peterson open your wallet and do some business in O town, you don't need the golf course or the college property, just use that half of billion dallors you have and really make ogden a jewel again. I know that you can do it with out all the property from the citizens. come on lets get this thing done.
Godfrey agrees, adding he has been the frequent target of vitriol from plan opponents. “I’ve had people yell in my face ... and attack my integrity,” he said. “I hope we can have civility.”
The above from an article in this morning's SE: "LDS leader: Refrain from bickering over gondola."
Evidently, these "attacks" on his "integrity" have struck a nerve.
I agree that a lack of civility is unpleasant and creates negative feelings and hostility.
Uncivil remarks such as terming things "bogus," or telling people that they don't know what they are talking about, or calling them "naysayers," or accusing them of "twisting" things would be, I believe, as offensive to the recipients of such remarks as questioning their integrity would be.
Civility is, after all, a two way street.
See, I told you...
The gondola idea is so wrong. What Ogden needs is a monorail from downtwon to Weber State. If the mayor and Peterson would abandon the silly gondola idea and back a monorail, I'm sure everyone would get behind their plan....
Monorail... monorail....monorail...
Right on... Right on.... Right ON....
Dian: In Re the article.
I am all for civility. However, identifying elected officials who are not behaving ethically is not an un-civil thing to do. In fact, it is not only the voter's right, it is his or her responsibility to examine public conduct by elected officials and to determine whether or not they are behaving ethically. And if they are not, drawing conclusions about their integrity [or lack thereof] becomes unavoidable.
Uncivil discouse would be resorting to ad hominem attacks [i.e. those that are unrelated to the policy matter under discussion, such as for example claiming some public advocate of the gondola plan watches porno flicks three times a week. [NB: I am NOT claiming that. Using it merely as an example of an ad hominem attack.] Such attacks have no place in public debate over policy matters. Ever.
Uncivil discourse might also involve charging someone with a serious crime for which there is either no evidence, or for which the person making the charge is unwilling to provide evidence. This has, sadly, occasionally happened in this present dispute. And it should not have. With respect to claims of criminal conduct, it seems to me, the rule is simple: put up or shut up. If someone cannot provide evidence or are unwilling to, they shouldn't make the charge in a public forum.
However, too many people [including many of my students, sadly] consider expressing disagreement with someone to rude. It is not. Nor is pointing out misrepresentations on the part of elected officials. Or abuses of the powers of their offices. Though I can understand why Mayor Godfrey would like to have such questions taken off the table and declared uncivil. If I were he, I wouldn't want those matters discussed either.
It is sadly true that some, and some who post here, have gone well beyond the bounds of civility in attacking the Mayor and his LO cronies. But pointing out examples and instances of misrepresentation and abuse of authority are not in any way beyond the bounds of civil discourse. In fact, if public discussion is to be meaningful at all, such instances have to be made part of the discussion.
Dian,
You are so right.
I don't know how many times I have seen the Mayor call someone a LIER.
Or that is just not true. But when you question His integrity, It is always the best if not better than anyone in the room.
I think that Cliff Goff needs to call the Mayor to repentance as well as the giggers, after all they are the ones that if you don't agree with them then you can go hang it in your ear! and btw "will you keep your s--t off my porch" said lift ogden.
About civility.....what about removing a candidate's signs, paint balling houses, intimidating old folks and widows into removing a candidate's lawn signs with lies about the candidate? That's pretty uncivil in my book!
How about receiving letters, phone calls, and a visit informing the recipient that they've LIED and had accused said letter writer of STEALING SIGNS??? tsk tsk tsk.
How abut being called 'stupid' in public and told that 'everyone knows this is stupid, and you are stupid for what you are doing'....intrusion into a private NON political conversation. That's rather uncivil, I would say.
How about being called a derogatory name, in public, by a LO person who intruded himself into a private conversation?
Pretty uncivil, I think.
Asking for facts, verification of statements by the gondola pushers is NOT uncivil. Their rude replies ARE.
Oh well, just preaching to the choir again. Soembody say "AMEN" and hand those uncivil people a new hymnal and let them know they're invited to join our choir!
Praise the Lord and Pass the Facts, M'am, Please.
You know, Curmudgeon, I have read with interest your posts regarding ethical vs criminal. I have a different take on this question than you seem to have.
I see nothing wrong with, as one of our civic organizations says--asking questions. And to get right down to it, there is only one way to know for sure something occurred, which is to witness it yourself, and even then, human perception is sometimes faulty. We make mistakes.
And really, all we have to go on in many of these discussions is reportage from the news. And if the media reports that someone did something, and that something appears to be against the law, I really see nothing wrong with someone on this blog posting about that.
Of course, we cannot provide "evidence" of this other than the news reports and the various laws we think might have been violated.
And again, these discussions, both here and in courts, get into the realm of "interpretation" of the law. I can read something and have an opinion on it. Another can disagree for a variety of reasons. And this to me is within the realm of intelligent discussion and also free speech.
Sometimes your opinion on this appears to indicate that you do not think any of these discussions should broaden into legal ramifications of actions, and remain on the level of whether or not they are ethical. To me, since this blog is usually a matter of opinion coupled with media reports, I think it is all right to speculate upon whether an action is legal or illegal.
Stating these things as fact, however, is a different thing, and not according to Hoyle, because, first and foremost, these things have not been proven to be facts. And we should try make that clear when we post things, obviously.
I am all for the monorail monorail monorail.
Jeepers, if only we had a monorail we would be the only place in the whole wide world that had a monorail from a train station to a University! (Well a college now, but after the monorail it will be a University)
Students will be flocking in with bulging wallets from all corners of the earth because we have a monorail. $600 billion will be invested and 12,000,000 jobs will be created, and a $100 billion dollars of new money will flow into the city treasury.
What could any rational person have against the monorail monorail monorail?
We would be the the only place in the whole wide world that the have's could glide effortlessly and quitely over the heads of the masses of have not's! Just think, the rich will not even have to look the poor in the eye!
Every "have" in the world will be clamoring to come here and ride the monorail monorail monorail monorail.
No other city on earth will have one but us!
If we all get together and repeat this mantra loud enough and long enough it will come true.
Come on all you naysayers, get with the chant and quit hating Ogden so much.
So, has Amy Wicks received a reply yet from Mayor Godfrey about how much City money has been expended in promoting the gondola?
I thought it was to be forthcoming about two weeks ago?
Or was it hoped Ms. Wicks and her question would just go away? Thanks for asking, Amy!
Dian:
Your last paragraph makes the key distinction. There is a world of difference between asking that something be looked into to see if any violations of the law occured, and charging that someone is a criminal. I have no problem with the first. I have a lot of problems [absent accompanying evidence being provided] with the second. Both have appeared at times on WC Forum.
Monorail; schmonorail! If the Mayor really had vision, he'd get a skyweb.
http://www.skywebexpress.com/
Since nobody else has fallen for this one, we would truely be unique. :)
Curmudgeon:
Got it. And I agree, absolutely.
Southsider:
Do you realize this would make Ogden the ONLY city to have its downtown connected by skyweb to a gondola that will not go to Snow Basin? No other city in the land could make that claim!
Does anyone have a sign for a SkyWeb? I want one in my yard.
I'd be the very first on my block with one.
From my block to the rest of the world!
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