By Rudizink
We never cease to be amazed at the intelligence of the local townsfolk, as they express their sage and well-reasoned opinions here -- and in local print media letters-to-editor sections and elsewhere. We're great believers in the Wisdom of Crowds. We believe the principle is re-proven daily in our various local reader forums.
As evidence of that, we're kicking off a new Weber County Forum thread, highlighting three of this morning's Std-Ex letters. Two of them make salient points, we think.
First, Michelle Malan Burnett, of Roy, sets forth a laundry list (the short version) of bone-headed business decisions made by Boss Godfrey during his six-year tenure as Mayor. She notes Godfrey's latest blunders, traffic ticket quotas and police salary negotiations chiseling, as factors which will inevitably dissuade out of towners from patronizing businesses in Ogden. She rightly notes the grossly misplaced priorities of the Ogden City mayoral administration: In an era where street gun-battles are on an upswing in Ogden, Boss Godfrey is busy converting Ogden's Finest into a battalion of glorified meter maids.
Next, Jim Farrell, an Ogden native who for unknown reasons has transplanted himself to Moab, issues a word of warning about the errors of government grand schemers who build gondolas. An unfinished gondola languishes unused in his new home town, as a monument to the ineptitude of some local government officials. In this instance, natural human fear of heights is mentioned as a factor in the failure of Moab's own ill-conceived gondola scheme, along with the unforgivable failure of local county officials to have posted a necessary performance bond.
Finally, we have this disappointing Bonnie Olsen Hyde letter, which gets off to a great start in her first four paragraphs, citing broad facts and economic figures. Unfortunately, Ms. Hyde bogs down, and fails to make the necessary logical connection to explain how her cited figures would apply to the Godfrey/Peterson scheme. What ambitiously starts out as a seemingly logical argument, winds up entirely faith-based.
"How would these figures apply to a local "ski resort" whose amenities will be marginal at best," our gentle readers may ask, having read Ms. Hyde's letter?
"Have faith," Ms. Hyde would likely retort.
The last paragraph of Ms. Hyde's letter eerily spirals entirely off-course, into something very similar to this. Perhaps the Lift Ogden Letter Writing Factory ought to consider coming up with some new material. The old talking points are wearing painfully thin.
We note that Mr. Farrell's fear of heights objection was a matter of first impression for us. We don't believe we've heard that one mentioned before.
So what about it, gentle readers?
Who will comment on any of the above?
It's Monday morning; and the floor is open.
© 2005 - 2014 Weber County Forum™ -- All Rights Reserved
28 comments:
Ms. Burnett has made some very good points. Mayor Godfrey tries to rack up the revenue through tickets, while he loses much more through loyal patronage of Ogden businesses. This will undoubtedly take years to recover from and can only start with the exit from office of Godfrey. Ogden is loosing so much because Mayor Godfrey cannot see the forest through the trees.
Yesterday at the Newgate Mall, there was a gondola car outside leaning up against the building. By the loading dock a bit south of Dillard's. I had heard that one had been in the mall but had never seen it.
This one had "Heavenly" written on the side. It looked sort of small to me. I and shopping bags would probably have taken up half of one side. Two padded benches facing each other. I was thinking that the people in the middle might not get much of a view.
Somehow I had envisioned the one we have been talking about as being larger than this was. Six people, I estimated. Maybe only four if they were big people wearing down suits and parkas. It was unattended, and besides, the sun had been beating on it all morning so I did not try to get inside it to see if this perception was correct.
Definitely not built for comfort, but for transport. As ski gondolas are. Do not think this would work for mass transit at all.
Sounds like Ms. Hyde is not exactly in the ski business, unless you make the assumption that all business generated in the Ogden valley comes from ski tourism.
Trappers Village
"Owners Jeff and Bonnie Hyde state that their goal is to revitalize a once bustling town, without taking away its small town charm."
"According to Jeff and Bonnie Hyde of Bonnie & Hyde Inc., they are restoring and developing Trappers Village into a property that will enhance and compliment the historic town. "It is our goal to create a peaceful experience that includes dining and shopping while, embracing a quiet mountain atmosphere. A place that gives people a feeling of 'Those were the days,' a place where people vow to return to time and again."."
That gondola car WAS inside the Newgate...right outside Sear's inside mall entrance.
One of our gentle readers sat in it when it was parked at WSU...not a hot day, but he said it was uncomfortably warm inside the gondola car.
Can you imgine such a car in August?
How about gliding along in Jan or any other winter month?
They aren't very large, and anyone who has been shopping in one of the many businesses under its path, will be hard pressed (no pun intended) to fit in comfoortably with other passengers and all the purchases.
Thre are LOTS of cops stopping people. On every street we've traversed, motorists have been pulled over.
And it isn't just Ogden cops...I see other cities and the UHP writing tix also.
After our new justice court gets to be a money maker, we'll have enuf revenue to rehabilitate street gangs and dopers.
Anyone want to bet that next stop for the gondola car will be this Saturday's Farmers' Market... where, by the way, Smart Growth Ogden has been denied a table on grounds that it's "political."
Well, I certainly know of one business that won't be getting any more of my business! Was just at the Trappers village last month. It wasn't the Shooting Star, although very close. It was nice, but after this letter I think I will take a pass on any future visits.
Nancy and Bert:
Let the owners know. I am.
Nice find regarding Trapper's Village, anonymous!
Jeff Hyde spoke in favor of the gondola at the City Council meeting after the Lift Ogden rally outside the municipal building.
It occurs to me that if they are so in favor of it, they could take steps to build one from the Rendezvous Lodge at Trapper's Village to Snowbasin. (Unless it would mar the scenery, or spoil the look of the mountain, or if Snowbasin perchance did not welcome it.)
It could go to the top of Snowbasin, and then skiiers (with Malan's basin lift tickets, of course,) could ski right down and ride back up on the Mountain Gondola, which will connect to the Malan's Basin resort.
A perfect solution.
Here is the real irony of the ticket quota along with trying to get tourist here in to Ogden. Here you have the Mayor and Chief of Police with this Ticket Quota to get citizens to fork out more money to run local government.
However by doing so. They are leaving a sour taste in the mouths of the people that visit or have dealings here in Ogden to spend their hard earn dollar. I have a friend that tells me that after the way he was treated by the police of Ogden, (when he got pulled over for a minor infraction), that he plans to spend not a red cent in Ogden again, but will tell people to avoid Ogden like a Black Plague.
This Ticket Quota is very self defeating.
In fact I would like to see two new features on this Blogg site.
(1) Keep track of all the named business that have picked up shop and left Ogden since The Mayor Boss Godfrey was made Mayor. With a counter balance with actually new business that have come into town. This is the one way to track his track record.
(2) Have a list of things that are wrong with Ogden as seen by people who have dealings or live in Ogden. Then as things are getting fixed have that fixed date attacked to them as seen and verified by our very own bloggers. We then will have a track record of what he is doing to get Ogden out of the Ghetto reputation.
Getting Ogden out of the ghetto reputation, would be, and should be, the first priority you would think, before you can get enough money for a gondola system.
I like your suggestions, Concerned Citizen!!
Dian,
Wouldn't Peterson be better off going hand in hand with the Hyde's over in Huntsville?
I can envision 400 'lodges' of varying sizes: some like teepees, others like Tyrolean mountain cabins, and others like Swiss chalets.
Something for every taste. And the Hyde's already know how to cater to the skiers' wants.
And, Dian, your suggestion of running the gondola from THAT locale to Malan's with access to Snow Basin...is permission REALLY necessary?? is so outstandingly outstanding, I'm sure Peterson will be over to Huntsville posthaste.
By cracky, I think you've got it!!!
While I generally support Peterson building his resort the rest of the proposal is nonsense and destructive to what makes Ogden so unique. If he and God Free would just stay on point and make the resort an amenity to Ogden's already fine lifestyle we may have something here.
Fear of heights??? That is the corniest argument I have heard yet against this thing. Millions of people ride these things around the world. In the ten years since these modern gondolas have been popping up replacing chairs and older buckets, I have taken no less than 5000 gondola rides. I have NEVER seen anyone walk up to one and evaluate it's fear factor and subsequently refuse to ride. Such baloney. If an opponent thinks this is the make or break issue you are certainly grasping for straws. In fact you are traversing LOC territory with such unsubstantiated rhetoric. Stick with the performance bond issue.
Interesting letters today.
The one about Greiner disrespecting his men and calling them "whiners" may be just the catalyst to put a write-in candidate in office in Nov!
Certainly the police and firefighters and FRIENDS who live in the 18th Senate District will not vote for Greiner OR Reid.
Both are seen as 'in the mayor's pocket', and Greiner has now alienated his officers.
I have someone in mind for a write-in....how about you?
I think if we agree on a strong candidate, and I'm thinking we should ask our current senator in the 18th district if he'd give permission to be a write-in candidate, and we put a lot of publicity into this campaign then we could retain Sen Thomas.
Acrophobic:
Two points.
First, I like Kent Jorgenson's "Option B" proposal... that the city or WSU sell Mr. Peterson a small parcel of land at the head of 36th street... four or five acres, perhaps. This would serve as the base of the gondola system he wants to build to Malan's Basin, and would permit a few small shops related to that development as well at the base. He could then develop Malan's Basin as he wishes [arranging his own financing for the gondola and Basin resort.]
Mr. Peterson would get to develop his land, the city would get to keep Mt. Ogden Park and the surrounding lands as open space, and not have to invest $35 million [or more] to build a gondola system primarily to deliver customers to Mr. Peterson's gondola. Four busses an hour already run from the Intermodal Hub down town to the top of 36th street and back [the 603 bus]. If Mr. Peterson's resort takes off, more could be added, including if the traffic will support it, a Gondola Express bus non-stop between downtown and the Peterson gondola at the head of 36th street. This would also greatly reduce the serious divisions the mayor's gondola/gondola and real estate speculation plan has engendered.
Overall, I think Jorgensen is onto a good idea.
Second: well, some people do refuse to ride in gondolas out of fear. Grandma Curmudgeon is one. But not enough to make a difference. Not building it for that reason would make about as much sense as opposing airports because some people are afraid to fly and won't.
Well, it all sounds logical.
Can WSU spare about 4 acres?
WHY have shops in what is primarily residential and park area?
I don't understand that reasoning....esp if that is where Peterson wants to build his gated community.
Let him build his shops up in Malan's Basin when he turns it into a resort. Then there'd be a reason to ride up there...and everyone would , by then, know to stay away from Snow Basin.
Perhaps Peterson could build a few 'veddy exclusive' homes in his basin....to enjoy the spectacular sunsets that can only be enjoyed from up on high as Ed Allen so poetically told the City Council a couple weeks ago.
As we've all agreed: a trolley or bus is the logical mode of transportation from downtown to PETERSON'S GONDOLA.
Abner:
Making a small compromise on a small area at the head of 36th street... which will be the base of a commercial gondola anyway, a business... seems to me a small price to pay to insure that Mt. Ogden Parklands will remain public and open, and to insure that city taxpayers will not have to shell out 35 million plus to build, and more to operate a gondola just to deliver passengers to Mr. Peterson's gondola.
And as recent posts have made clear, the Mayor's plan to sell off the parklands so his crony can build a gated community of upscale vacation homes is seriously dividing citizens of Ogden. Compromising just a bit by granting to Mr. Peterson a small plot of land for the gondola base and the attendant small shops that accompany such operations in may places [small snack bar or cafe, gift shop, crafts shop, etc.] seems to me a reasonable price to pay for the restoration of public harmony and the preservation of the parklands as public open space.
And it would permit Mr. Peterson to [with his own funding] develop his property in Malan's Basin. The gondola starting at the head of 36th Street would provide the necessary access to the Basin for those bound to his resort.
The nature of compromise is that everyone gives, and gets, something of value by the exchange. He gets to develop his property. Ogden gets to retain the parklands as public open space, and can commit to a trolley system for mass transit instead of a limited use gondola [which is not a mass transit solution as now even Mayor Godfrey admits]. And the setting of neighbor against neighbor in an attempt to sell the Godfrey real estate specualtion scheme ends.
The Jorgensen Option B seems like a win win solution to me.
There is no way that there is a 5% fear rate for these contraptions. But it must be a concern for a miniscule few. As curm says we should not refuse to build airports on such abstract concerns.
Curm, I am absolutely inline on the Jurgensen option. This makes so much more sense than anything else.
While this is primarily a residential area, it is exactly that, that is wrong with it. This little stretch of upper 36th (while the current homeowners may disagree if they actually occupy not rent out) offers the incredible opportunity to create a University commercial zone. This idea has been forwarded by some past posters and overlooked in the fray. WSU is the most soulless campus environment I have ever seen. Develop 36th into a UZone like most colleges with self-esteem and Petersons gondola to his resort and we can rest easy that the golf course will suddenly become a magnet without selling it. This damn college would have ski access AND golf out the back door. Is everyone and there and their godfrey blind to this possibility, even Kent J.??? Wake up people, smell the greenbacks and start formulating this option and FORCE it on the mayor as though that is the language he speaks(he does) Weber State does not need a downtown connection beyond busses or the ogdenville monorail in the future. It can stand on it's own as a dynamic commercial zone that will truly make WSU a destination campus. Downtown also can stand on it's own and whoopee, we have created the infrastructure to Ogden's future greatness.
Add in a dedicated transit corridor with a 20 year plan between the two aforementioned city centers and the growth and money flow just won't quit without affecting Ogden negatively in the slightest. This is the New Urbanism in action. Sorry that godfrey studied elsewhere.
Curmudgeon,
The ideas that you articulate have logic. The main flaw in your plan is that Mayor Godfrey does not compromise nor does he act solely on logic. This is obvious with the way he has dealt with the Gondola project from the start and he has made it very clear in how he has dealt with the Public Safety Employees. In order to have plan of logic implemented, it has to be agreed to by logical individuals. How do you propose this to be done in the case of Mayor Godfrey?
Lots of personal and emotional factors can (and do) contribute significantly to the success or failure of a transit system. I know people who won't ride buses because they get motion sickness. Rail transit typically attracts about twice as many riders as buses, even when it's no faster, thanks to the subjective appeal of the smoother ride, nicer stations, etc.
With a gondola, fear of heights could be one of many negative factors that come into play. Others could be motion sickness (especially during gusty winds), claustrophobia, discomfort if the cabins aren't heated or air conditioned, and fear of being trapped in a small space with strangers, with no operator present. Curmudgeon's analogy to airports and fear of flying is a good one, aside from one difference that I think is significant: There are thousands of examples of airports around the world that are known to be successful despite the fact that some people are afraid of flying. Where are the examples of successful gondolas? Primarily at ski resorts, where they're ridden by a rather limited and homogeneous segment of the population. How many people would choose to ride a gondola in an urban setting? There's almost no empirical basis for an answer to this question. One side says it would be wildly popular due to its uniqueness and amusement-park appeal; the other side says it would be unpopular for reasons like the ones listed above. Both sides are probably right, but the net result of all these factors is highly uncertain.
The best ridership estimate we have is from the Ogden Transit Corridor Study that was completed last year. That study was done by professional consultants who had no stake in the outcome, using the best available computer models to predict ridership. They thought very carefully about all the subjective factors and, as I understand it, tried to err on the side of being too generous in their gondola ridership projections. Even so, they predicted that a gondola with the same set of stations would attract significantly fewer riders than a streetcar. (Much of the difference was due to the gondola's slower speed.) The mayor's version of the gondola lacks three of the recommended stations, so its within-town ridership would be still lower. In fact, the current proposal seems to assume that a local bus will continue to follow essentially the same route, serving anyone who needs to get on or off where the gondola doesn't stop, plus anyone who doesn't want to ride the gondola for whatever other reason. The bus will even be faster than the gondola, assuming that you don't have to wait to long to board, which you won't if you're transferring from commuter rail or if you can read a bus schedule. Wouldn't it be funny if we build the gondola, operate it for a while, then wake up one day and realize that we're paying $4 million a year to operate a system that serves no actual purpose?
Yo, Dan, I agree. I made the jab at the ridiculousness of the fear factor for what was, abstractionism. The urban gondola concept is quite ridiculous too so it's all a moot point. Except that LOC has put so much irrational momentum behind it.
As for C.Pete's mountain gondola it would serve several purposes and should be built as a part of the Ogden experience. It would become quite an identity for the city. It would provide the anchor to develop upper 36th and the folks will still come from downtown. A short drive if there ever was one, whether by bus, shuttle or Bombay Taxi. This upper 36th UZone must be developed to some requisit minimum commercial density to provide more than just a couple of coffe shops and snacks. A private bookstore, headshop, skate and snow shop, campus clothing etc. We need this pedestrian campus zone as badly as and in conjunction with Malan's gondola. I disagree fully with an earlier poster that CP can put some trophy homes and shops in Malan's instead of upper 36th. That is a dumb idea and not in congruence to city strategies to keep the money down here. Any visitor to Malan's whether to ski or hike or bike will pass through this U-Zone and that is where we want to get some additional revenue. It is astounding how C.Pete and the mayor have overlooked this as a source of both pocket revenue for pete from both leasable space and his own business opportunities. They are truly drooling for the gold in the golf course and they are cruel and unusual for forcing this inane issue. Has the mayor any political savvy. What a damn fool. He is so entrenched in this idea that leadership is long lost. There is now an incredible vacuum of leadership and I think it's high time SGO got off it's collective ass and propose something with meat instead of all the whining. Ogden does need SOMETHING and this is it. Unfortunately everyone is in a for/against mode and it is tiresome.
Dan,
Thanks for the link to the Ogden Transit Corridor Study. It provided the following estimates for construction costs.
Streetcar: $100.6 million
Bus/RT: $1.4 million
Gondola: $50.5 million
So, where does the $20 estimate that the Mayor, Chris Peterson, and Lift Ogden claim for the downtown gondola leg come from? There are slight differences in the route, but not $30 million worth!
I did a casual interview with a representative of Doppelmayer some months back. Their ballpark was 7 million/mile installed WITHOUT stations/ platforms. That is terminus to terminus barebones. Those costs could be higher in an urban environment with utility reconfiguration but then again balanced against the lower cost of not building in the challenging mountain environment..less heli hoisting, easier bore holes, etc.
Sounds like the mayor and C.Pete have no intention of building any architectural gems for their urban gondola stations. Better save that for pete's mountain leg where he proposes to blow the wad on a waterfall overlook which could cost as much alone as one leg of the urban gondola. These guys are so full of it they cannot even see the nonsense and add the numbers. That waterfall overlook would sit on a precarious precipice of rock outcrop which is magnificent as it stands. His plan will require the most tech of construction methods which is of course a one off deal and extremely expensive. Just so the some could get out and gawk at the waterfall instead of hike to it. A contradiction? definitely. Chris peterson is all about those.
BTW has the council given him any gesture of good will yet or is he still waiting to spend what amounts to an oversize toy garage at any common estate subdivision. This dude is cheap...I say he is quite unfit to the job and as a city we should demand a more professional presentation and plan from a real builder with accountable backing.
Excellent comment, acrophobic?.
If our readers were clicking our google ads once/day, your humble blogmeister would spring for fancier blog software, with which you would register a top-of-line "4" rating, I'm sure.
I was at the council meeting the night Chris Peterson (neatly "coifured" and dressed in blue polyester slasks and well starched "button-down" collar (open collar=Man of the People) asked for a "good faith gesture."
After that, the council just sat there goggle-eyed, and said NOTHING WHATOSOEVER.
The very next thing was the next public speaker.
I was sitting right behind the heavily-coifed Curt Geiger. His hairstyle wilted when Chris Peterson left the podium.
Sad, so very sad.
Anonymous too:
The $20 million figure (that the mayor, LO, and the newspaper keep quoting for the urban gondola construction cost) is presumably a rounded-down version of an estimate made in 2004 by RG Consultants in a $60,000 feasibility study hired by the city. Of the variations considered in that study, the lowest in cost came in at $23.15 million. That was for a gondola along the currently-proposed route, but ending in front of WSU, without the leg across WSU to the foothills. I should think that adding this leg would bump the cost up to around $30 million. The later study done by UTA/WFRC took the RG Consultants study as a starting point, but added more stations to the route, and some features that had been left out like elevating the gondola stations on Harrison (so cars could drive under), plus a 30% contingency margin. The $50 million figure was for a version with six stations. To compare to the current proposal, we can look at their second-choice alignment which is the same as now proposed but ending at 4400 S Harrison: about the same total distance, and the same number of stations (5). Their cost estimate for this version was $45 million, again including a 30% contingency. (Note that the streetcar figure of $100 million also includes a 30% contingency.)
Acrophobic:
As someone whose office is very close to the top of 36th Street, I'm certainly attracted to the idea of commercial development in that area. But there are many barriers and difficulties, some of them probably fatal. First, most of the buildable land is already built on, with houses and university buildings. I have colleagues who live in some of those houses. A Wasatch Fault trace runs right under one of the university buildings (fortunately, one that has few human occupants), so if that building is torn down, current codes would not permit putting anything up in its place. Perhaps more importantly, this area is a long way up from Harrison, so it doesn't naturally get much traffic except from students and residents. If we set aside the possibility of a Malan's Basin development for a moment, then a much more suitable place for a pedestrian-friendly commercial zone would be down along Harrison, perhaps on the old McKay-Dee site or at the corner of 36th and Harrison. This area is a natural candidate for a transit (preferably streetcar) stop that could act as an additional pedestrian magnet. Of course, some improvements to Harrison Blvd. (bulging curbs and a center island) will be needed to make it easier for pedestrians to cross, but this will have to happen anyway as the university grows.
Now you might think the Malan's Basin development will change all this, since it would naturally bring lots of folks to a gondola base station near the top of 36th. But I don't think the Malan's Basin development will ever happen, primarily for economic reasons. The topography isn't right for a ski area, there's no room in the basin itself for a resort of any size, and without either of these things there will be no revenue source to justify the expense of a gondola. At least, I'm pretty sure of these things. If someone can show me some believable numbers that add up to a profitable Malan's Basin resort, I'll take a careful look and reconsider. But all I've heard so far is "Chris Peterson knows what he's doing!", and my response to that is, yeah, and Chris Peterson says he can't do it without building and selling 400 million-dollar homes in the foothills. Even then, I doubt we would ever see a ski area or 350 condominiums in Malan's Basin. And 400 homes in the foothills is another long shot (given the topography), so even if Peterson gets all the foothill property he wants, I suspect he won't make enough money to finance a gondola to Malan's Basin.
Points well taken, Dan. I too have my doubts. I can't wait to see peterson's real proposal. I am not holding my breath though. There was so much hype building up to his first presentations and the lack of his own due diligence and shortage of investment in his own personal vision simply opened up a hunger for more and a ton of key technical questions. Volunteers were told at the first presentation that there would be a briefing for those manning the individual info stations. They had visions of resort professionals and architectural renderings and models and the stuff you usually see at any common suburban housing tract sales barbque. Instead there is no briefing, no CP inner circle resort design gurus, and just a single artists rendering. Maybe he didn't think us foothillers could think in these terms. Now he has revealed clearly that he has yet to fund the most rudimentary of studies. A huge disappointment and embarassment to Ogden that he and the mayor were so willing to jump way out on a limb for something that is so poorly researched. Makes me sad that we can't attract anything but second class dreamers instead of the real thing. Peterson knows little of alternative energy, and green issues and sustainability and alternative building materials and alternative material and waste handling. How can he possibly pass judgement on huge complex contracts that address just those issues with such a seat of the pants attitude. Without a clear commitment to these technologies without regard to cost these very things will tip the whole thing to the undoable column and you are right that the golf course is his final ace in the whole. My understanding is that he is unwilling to even involve us in financing his plans through lifetime passes, something that has proven successful in many areas of the world. Something that actually could generate community involvement. Not Chris. They have certainly blown any kind of community involvement capital. Such rank amateurs.
Again....Peterson isn't interested in building his resort or HIS gondola. The guy is a greedy land grabber.
Those LO people who sniff around him like dogs after a female in heat just smell an opportunity to make big money.
Why so many construction outfits, concrete makers, investment companies, etc..howling their support for this goofy gondola?
They just want in on ANY building that will take place.
Well, if the Hyde's of Hunstville like Peterson so much, perhaps they can locate the right amount of acreage for Peterson to put a gated development in the historic Hunstville.
Doug Croft resigns his Weber County Recorder elected post!
That’s what we should be reading in the Standard Examiner and here on the Weber Forum;
but we don’t live in a perfect world. So I say to all, go get a copy of your land deed and see if it’s still yours, because with his track record of being the most qualified candidate!!!
Your land deed, maybe in his or his wife’s name now!
This guy can’t be trusted his last 6 months on the job.
Doug Croft is so qualified! He deserves all land deeds he can get his hands on.
Besides all that land is just worthless! Worthless! Worthless!!!! O.k. o.k. o.k.
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