By Curmudgeon
They just can't help themselves...
The Standard Examiner this morning has a long op-ed bit of gondola fantasizing by Mr. B. Geiger, identified as Chairman of Lift Ogden. It is filled with flights of fancy and what an uncharitable soul might consider deliberate mis-representations. For example, here are a few statements taken, verbatim, from Mr. Geiger's piece:
WSU will be, he says, will be linked to "an international airport... via gondola and commuter rail." And "WSU is about 35 miles from Salt Lake International Airport, and will soon be connected by commuter rail. " And WSU will be "the only university in the world linked to... an international airport... via gondola and commuter rail."
Ah, Bob... Frontrunner, the comuter rail coming to Ogden, will not go to SL International airport. Frontrunner will have two stations in downtown Salt Lake, but it will not connect either SLC or Ogden to the airport. Mr. Geiger has dropped into this piece false claims that the gondola/gondola system he proposes will connect Ogden with Snow Basin. That is very encouraging. It shows he is capable of learning. One would have hoped, however, that by now he might actually have looked at a UTA map and discovered that the Frontrunner commuter rail will not connect Ogden with the SLC airport. Maybe by the next time he inflicts his fantasizing on the readers of the SE he will have figured that out and removed yet another false claim from Lift Ogden's appeals. We can only hope.
But there's even more fantasizing in his piece. He writes "WSU is 20 minutes away from the nearest ski resort, Snowbasin. Twenty minutes? How? By helicopter? I will admit, I've seen people trying to drive from WSU's campus to the parking lots at Snow Basin in twenty minutes, but usually I see them pulled over to the side helping Ogden police make their weekly quota of speeding tickets. If he can't figure out something as simple as the driving time from WSU to Snow Basin, I can't help but wonder how accurate his other observations are. And remember, he seems to think Frontrunner will take him from Ogden to the SLC airport. This the guy you want planning your city's future?
Finally, he compares WSU to Colorado State, claiming WSU can certainly draw lots of ski/snowboard/mountain activities oriented students as he says Colorado State does. Why, CSU is, he points out, 70 miles from the Denver airport, while WSU is only 35 from SLC airport. And CSU is 70 miles from the Rockies and its trails, etc, while WSU is tucked right under the Wasatch range and has trails running from the campus up into the mountains. CSU is an hour's drive from the nearest ski resort, while WSU is closer than that to Snow Basin, a world class resort [say a 35 minute drive, barring any serious traffic].
Well, here's the question, Bob: all of the above is true right now. With no gondola in place. Without a huge real estate development eating up WSU wild lands adjoining the campus and separating the campus from the mountain trails. All of it true right now. So, Bob, since WSU is right now, according to you, a far more attractive campus for skiers, snowboards, hikers, trailriders, than CSU is, my question is this: why aren't all those CSU students here right now?Why, if closeness to mountain recreation is why many many students, the land over, choose colleges, and WSU is so much better situated than CSU in this regard right now, why aren't they here, Bob? Why will a train and gondola system that won't take them to or from the airport, and a real estate development imposed between the campus and the mountain trails, and a gondola that won't take them to Snow Basin draw all these people when they haven't come to a campus that is by your own account already far superior to CSU as a mountain-oriented college site?
Update 7/26/06 4:35 p.m. MT: Today's Std-Ex Thom Kuehls guest commentary skillfully dismantles Bob Geiger's earlier pro-gondola commentary piece. Be sure to read Mr. Kuehl's most excellent and intelligent retort.
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107 comments:
First note: Only .11% of the Skier and Snowboarder demographic! .056% of the outdoor sport participating demographic! This is some very interesting information for WSU and Ogden to consider in its marketing analysis regarding the benefits of the Gondola.
Second note: This was not mentioned in the article; but, other than the land, WSU isn't being asked to pay for any of this project. They get to use it as a marketing tool and piggy back on the marketing efforts of the entire city without making the investment.
Final Note: Attempting to discredit the marketing data by trying to discredit other information in the article must be done carefully so as not to look foolish or lose crediblity as an objective person who is just asking questions. See below:
FACTS FROM UTA - THERE ARE PLANS TO LINK S.L.C. INTERNATIONAL VIA COMMUTER RAIL AND TRAX. THE DISCUSSION OF TRAX VS. RAIL WON'T DISCREDIT BOB GEIGER'S OVERALL MESSAGE AND ANALYSIS.
From: Nester, Ketty (Customer Service Rep III) [mailto:KNester@uta.cog.ut.us]
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 10:08 AM
To:
Subject: RE: Commuter Rail, TRAX and S.L.C. International Airport
In the Long Range Plan there is an extension of TRAX from the Salt Lake Intermodal hub to the Salt Lake International Airport. Commuter Rail will link up with this line at the same location. Plans are still several years out, and the extension to the airport will not be completed when Commuter Rail is.
Thank you,
Ketty Nester
UTA Customer Service
801-262-5626 Ext. 4100
FACTS FROM MAP QUEST: IT IS 19.57 DRIVING MILES FROM WSU TO SNOWBASIN SKI RESORT. IF YOU DRIVE LIKE A COLLEGE STUDENT, NOT LIKE A GRANDMA, YOU'RE LIKELY TO GET THERE IN ABOUT 20-28 MINUTES.
1: Start out going SOUTH on HARRISON BLVD / UT-203 toward E 3850 S. 2.8 miles Map
2:Turn SLIGHT LEFT onto US-89.1.9 miles Map
3:Merge onto I-84 E toward CHEYENNE / MORGAN. 4.6 miles Map
4: Take EXIT 92 toward MT. GREEN / HUNTSVILLE. 0.2 miles Map
5:Turn LEFT. <0.1 miles Map
6: Turn RIGHT onto OLD HIGHWAY RD / UT-167.1.5 miles Map
7: Turn LEFT onto TRAPPERS LOOP RD / UT-167. Continue to follow UT-167. 5.4 miles Map
8:Turn LEFT onto UT-226.=2.8 miles
Map
9:End at Snow Basin Huntsville, UT US Map
Total Est. Distance: 19.57 miles
Give Bob a break. Actor Richard Burton fantasized about Ogden once:
It's true! It's true! The crown has made it clear.
The climate must be perfect all the year.
A law was made a distant moon ago here:
July and August cannot be too hot.
And there's a legal limit to the snow here
In Ogdenlot.
The winter is forbidden till December
And exits March the second on the dot.
By order, summer lingers through September
In Ogdenlot.
Ogdenlot! Ogdenlot!
I know it sounds a bit bizarre,
But in Ogdenlot, Ogdenlot
That's how conditions are.
The rain may never fall till after sundown.
By eight, the morning fog must disappear.
In short, there's simply not
A more congenial spot
For happily-ever-aftering than here
In Ogdenlot.
Ogdenlot! Ogdenlot!
I know it gives a person pause,
But in Ogdenlot, Ogdenlot
Those are the legal laws.
The snow may never slush upon the hillside.
By nine p.m. the moonlight must appear.
In short, there's simply not
A more congenial spot
For happily-ever-aftering than here
In Ogdenlot.
Finally the song fits the picture.
It is great here. The trouble is getting people to come vist and see OGDENLOT.
Good job Mr Geiger
Question: Can you explain where Bob Geiger makes the statement that the gondola is going to Snowbasin?
I've re-read the article several times. I can't find it. If by mentioning Snowbasin and the Gondola in the same article, you draw the conclusion that Bob Geiger is trying to deceive people, then please spread the word that Bob Geiger is trying to sell the idea that the Gondola will go to CSU. CSU and the Gondola were both mentioned in the article as well.
Please consider wiping the foam from your mouth before you take off with claims of deceipt.
So...
S.L.C. is linking itself directly to the airport. Man... We better decided to do something up here in Ogden.
Seems as though the mass transit plan is oriented on benefiting S.L.C. first and formost....and possibly at our expense if we don't do something about it.
Let's see, what can Ogden do that S.L.C. cannot?
Exactly Curmudgeon.
What good student picks a school just based on how close it is to skiing and a gondola? Some of us have chosen WSU because it's affordable and offers a pretty good education.
It makes me want to grind my teeth when I hear the LO amen choir say that WSU students could ski between classes. It's almost an insult to those of us still here in the real world who are busy enough working and studying that the idea of "skiing between classes" is laughable.
Honestly people...
Some Dude -
I didn't read anything in Bob Geiger's article that said that students could ski between clases.
People choose locations for the educational opportunites for all kinds of reasons. Don't grind your teeth if some people make decisions for different reasons that you. Have a little tolerance.
I feel a rant coming on:
Anon,
You said "The trouble is getting people to come visit and see OGDENLOT." Why is that trouble? I don't find it a problem. I really think the LO crowd needs to stop telling me that Ogden NEEDS tourists. I think we're doing just fine. I think our future is bright. IF you need tourists to be happy, you should move to Anaheim California, no shortage of tourists there. And besides, I come from a fairly large family who live out of state as well as outside the USA. They “come visit” us here in your sad starving gondolaless Ogden at least once year; some come several times a year. We walk the Mount Ogden trail system almost every day when they visit. The "trouble" is LO wants to scrape the park and trails off the map. Oh well, I'm sure my relatives would much rather go to Disney Land anyway. (And don't tell me the LO lie that "the park will remain untouched" I don't use the grass, I use the trails. And don't tell me "the trails will be improved." The proposed "trail expansion and displacement" given to us by Chris Peterson SUCKS. Every knowledgeable trail advocate in our community has said so.
Hey Bob geiger,
What part of liar, don't you understand. Is it the L, or is it the I, or is it the A, or is it the R.
Come on bob at least do the honorable thing and get some integrity like godfrey and tell the truth.
I'll forgive you this time but don't let it happen again.
after all you know what the right thing to do is, lets make it right and not tell false hoods anymore.
Hey Anon-
I never said that Bog Geiger stated that in his article, but it has been sung by others of the LO amen choir.
And you're right, people do choose universities for different reasons, but the notion that access to a gondola and a ski resort will make WSU "world class" (whatever that means) is laughable.
Like I said, I really like WSU, but don't expect it to become the next Ivy League School just because of a gondola and ski resort.
I was having dinner last week at the new restaurnat at the Kemp airport.
Mr Kemp came by our table to see how our group liked the service and food.
He commented that his biggest frustration was that he has hundred of people fly in to see his operation and that they spend $30.00 on dinner there nad then head to Park City to spend the weekend and several thousand dollars.
This is the same situation that Ogden has with the Sundance Film festival.
We host 39% of the movie screening and get less than 10% of the after movie spending. The people leave town as soon as they have viewed the movie to PC or SLC to spend their dollars.
This money can pay a lot of public bills.
See the back room deals....
You know the world C-O-W-A-R-D!
Call: 801-317-0017 X232
Ask for Bob Geiger
See the back room deals...
It's been 15 Minutes!
The word is C-O-W-A-R-D.
801-317-0017 X232 Bob Geiger
I received my bachelor's at Weber State University and my master's at Colorado State University, and I now live in Ogden. I just wanted to say that there are many factors Mr. Geiger left out when comparing WSU to CSU, such as graduate programs. CSU has dozens of graduate programs with thousands of students attending them, I was one of them (Weber State only has a few grad programs). Many of my fellow scholars attending grad school at CSU were also from outside of Colorado. I didn't go to CSU to go skiing, I went to get a degree, as is the case with most students who go there.
Also, I am tired of LO folk demeaning WSU. Bob didn't necessarily do that in this editorial, but has in the past as have other LO people. WSU is an excellent university with wonderful professors. Also, along those lines, Mike Vause (of Smart Growth Ogden) has been attacked as well (as have many other SGO members who have contributed immensely to Ogden). I want to make the point that his undergraduate literature conference has done more for Ogden than the Gondola will ever do!
Well here we go again,
The commissioners are saying that we need to combine the recorder and the surveyor office to save some money.
when in reality all the did was remove a check and balance as well as accountiblity for the tax payer. now with that saving, they are going to spend the money for some one to do Nate Peirce's job. because he is enept to do it him self or is because he didn't win the commission race so lets make him a honerary commissioner anyway, so he can show up and just collect a pay check on the taxer dime. he is already pulling a pension from the military and now form ogden city, with a fat 100.000 dallor severance pay, and now 85,000 from the county, boy these republicans really know how to take care of themselves. and they don't call this corruption. does any one out there see all the crap that is taking place here. I think it is time to get rid of the repulican right wing crooks, all of them, that goes for crook croft too.
July 15, 2006 7:13 AM
I think it is time to get rid of the repulican right wing crooks, all of them, that goes for crook croft too.
But Croft is the high most qualified, all that land was worthless, worthless. He deserves it because he owned a title company, so there.
patriot was meaner.
The most frustrating thing that I have found with this whole gondola issue is the lack of information. I understood that when this was first proposed, some time ago, that it would take time to develop the plan. The problem is that the information about the gondola available today is the same as when the idea first came up. There are a lot of conclusions that Ogden will benefit from this plan, but no real information or facts as how they come to those conclusions. I truly would like to see Ogden prosper and think that a plan for the future is good practice, but where is the plan? If WSU truly will benefit from this, as advertised, then where’s the plan to show how. If downtown Ogden will truly benefit from this where’s the plan. As a consumer I don’t purchase any big ticket items with out making sure I am not getting taken. We all know that there are the slick used car salesmen types out there and it is also good practice to know what you’re buying into. I am not saying that there are any of those types associated with Lift Ogden; the problem is that I have nothing but their word to go on at this point. Another issue is that Mayor Godfrey is included with the “their” in the previous statement. His creditability is at best lacking, in my view, and I cannot blindly support something that has the potential to be a tax burden on my children and their children.
If this good idea and will benefit all those involved, put the plan out there to be viewed and critiqued. If it is as good as advertised it will sell itself. The lack of doing so lessens the creditability of Lift Ogden’s argument.
Just to elaborate on some of the differences between WSU and Colorado State (follow links for still more details) that Geiger didn't bother to mention...
Colorado State is a land-grant university, most analogous to USU, not WSU. It has a full range of graduate programs at the master's and doctoral levels. It has a College of Agriculture, a College of Engineering, a College of Natural Resources, and a College of Veterinary Medicine. Some of the programs in these colleges are undoubtedly sufficiently specialized to have carved out a niche in the national market--hence the 22% out of state enrollment. (Geiger's says 25%, but perhaps the difference is a matter of year-to-year fluctuations.)
WSU has only a handful of master's-level graduate programs, mostly aimed at older, part-time students who attend in the evening while they work full-time jobs.
Colorado State is a residential college where freshmen are required to live on campus. WSU is a commuter school where only 3% of students live on campus.
Colorado State has 300 student organizations and clubs; WSU has 100.
Colorado State has a student-faculty ratio of 17:1; WSU's ratio is 22:1.
Colorado State's campus lands total 4700 acres, including a main campus of 669 acres. WSU's web site claims a campus of "more than 500 acres," but this undoubtedly includes the 130 acres that Mr. Geiger would like the university to sell.
Et cetera. Let's face it: Colorado State and WSU have very different missions, and simply aren't comparable in most respects. For WSU to try to become like Colorado State would be an enormously expensive, long-term undertaking, requiring the hiring of hundreds of new faculty and staff and the contruction of hundreds of millions of dollars worth of new buildings. Something as superficial as a gondola connection to what would be Utah's second-smallest ski area ain't gonna do it.
It's certainly fair to ask whether WSU should try harder to market itself to out of state students. As Geiger points out, the additional tuition revenue would be a good thing. But as Curmudgeon astutely points out, there's already ample basis for such a marketing campaign.
I don't think that Mr. Geiger is trying to say that WSU should be come like CSU. What I hear him say is that WSU can do atleast 1/3rd as well as CSU in out of state enrollment and that the gondola can be a strong benefactor for making that happen.
Certainly, all of the WSU students would not be attracted due to the gondola. But, certainly, some will be attracted. Could that number be 1,000? Very possibly. Only .11% of the out-of-state, college enrolled, Skier and Snowboarder demographic and .056% of the outdoor sport demographic does it. Is the gondola enough to provide this marginal benefit? Likely. Certainly, a portion of CSU's students go there because of their access to recreation or they would not make it such a prominent piece of the marketing message.
BG keeps mentioning all the revenue these 1,000 out of state students will add to the WSU coffers, but fails to mention that there will be some costs involved also. I wonder if out of state tuition even covers the cost of educating a student?
You've all gotten away from the original argument made against Mr. Geiger:
1) There will be no link to S.L.C. International - Proven false. There will be a link.
2) WSU is much further away from Snowbasin that 20 minutes - Proven false. He's within 4-8 minutes.
3) WSU will be connected to Snowbasin. - Where did he say that? I didn't read that. The burden of proof is on you.
The problem here is, the discussion degenerated quickly to calling him a L-I-A-R when it became clear that he was very careful and factual.
Then, the problem became diverted away from the message of the article in order to try to defeat it. Mr. Geiger's message was not--Let's make WSU like CSU. His message was that it is likely that the margin benefit to WSU for the introduction of the gondola is likely to be at least 1,000 students. CSU certainly experiences a marginal benefit of its out-door recreation marketing message to keep it going and keep it as a main point for why one might choose CSU.
As for Mike Vause...what exactly are the personal attacks that have been placed against him? I've not seen any. Certainly nothing like what I've seen against Bob Geiger in just today's blog postings.
I think this conversation about the reasons that a student chooses one college over another is silly.
If you watched the Mountain West conference finals each of the Universities clammered to out do the other in the advertizing of how much fun it was to attend that University.
The U of U and Colorado State each were heavely exploitive of the wonderful natural surroundings of their respective school.
The U of U talked about the access to Skiing and Colorado State promoted hiking and biking.
However we solve the problem of declining enrolement at Weber State it seems clear that a University that has something special to offer uses what they have.
I would bet that Pepperdine mentions more than once their proximity to the beach.
I have been a fan of Weber athletics for years. As the city of Ogden has declined so has the Universities ability to attract athletes that can win conference championships. This pleases the recuiters at Utah and Utah State.
Southsider--
You're a bright star! If the cost of educating a student exceeds their tuition, then the best business plan for WSU is to stop operations all together. With every student, WSU incurrs more debt.
Stop all motion! WSU has got a serious problem that President Milner needs to address. Marginal cost exceeds marginal revenues!!!
Of course that isn't the case. That arguement is pure sillyness.
WSU will benefit from more out of state students. Ogden will benefit from our tourists. More customers isn't a bad thing.
The University incurred a $960,000 budget cut due to falling enrollment. By what you are saying, falling enrollment is a good thing. It's cutting overhead. Increasing enrollment, if marginal costs is greater than marginal benefit, would only exacerbate the problem.
This isn't true; but if it is, then the President of the University has a very big problem on her hands.
To the Various anons:
1. The statement Mr. Geiger made was that Frontrunner will connect the Ogden godola with the SL Airport. It won't. If the voters approve a new bond issue, and it passes legal challenges, then TRAX will connect the airport with downtown and the Frontrunner within about seven years instead of 30. That will be all to the good. This however will require a trolley ride from the airport to the Frontrunner station, and [outside of rush hour] an average 20 minute wait for the train to Ogden. Why all this would be acceptable to skiers and others coming to Ogden but a trolley ride of about the same distance to WSU from downtown would not escapes me.
2. Presumably, WSU could market itself as a mountain sports college right now, without giving up a square foot of its mountain land. Since it already has far more advantages that way than CSU, Mr. Geiger's comparison school according to Mr. Geiger, if he is right about the potential appeal of WSU as a mountain sports campus to students nationwide, WSU should be able to draw that extra thousand out of state students here right now. I await the experiment.
3. Your fast route to Snowbasin is as you note 19.57 miles, which means someone would have to average about 60 MPH over the whole course. Including miles on Harrison Blvd. Sorry, but the claim that Snow Basin is "twenty minutes" normal driving time from WSU is not defensible. Particularly in winter conditions, when Snow Basin is open as a ski venue. And I notice even you suggest normal driving times, "driving like a college student not a grandma" can be 28 minutes, substantially longer than Mr. Geiger claimed. I'm sorry Mr. Geiger underestimated the normal driving time to Snow Basin in order to make his argument seem stronger. As I am fairly sure you are sorry he got called on it. As I am absolutely sure Ogden will continue to enjoy the extra revenues generated from speeding tickets by drivers trying to make it in twenty minutes. Look. He exaggerated. The exaggeration doesn't make or break his argument on its own, but it does suggest a willingness to shade the numbers in his favor where he thinks he can get away with it. This time, he didn't.
4. I did not say that Mr. Geiger made the claim that the gondola/gondola scheme would connect Ogden with Snow Basin in this piece. LO and Mr. Geiger have made it often before. I congratulated him for NOT making the claim in this piece, for dropping that particular bit of misinformation this time round.
Dan S. -
If WSU is positioned as a commuter school that doesn't have many programs, then that is OK. They need to let the business community know that when the come asking for donations. The message that they give is, "Give more money, we'll make WSU competetive." If the end-state will always be, "We'll never be as strong as that other school. Our costs exceed our revenues. We'll never have the programs and student groups..." Just let the rest of Ogden know that.
Anon:
WSU's educational mission is set by the state, not by the University. Many states limit he number of research universities with extensive graduate programs that they support with public money to prevent duplication of programs and because of the expense involved. Utah has two public research universities, UU and USU. It also has other colleges and universities which have been given the primary mission of undergraduate education. This is not a secret. It is and has been public knowledge for a long time. It is a matter of public policy set at the state level.
Curmudgeon-
You got him-
1) It wont' connect. Wait, wait. OK...It will connect, but with Trax. HE'S STILL A LIAR.
2) Pluse 1-3 minutes, not 20! LIAR.
19.57 miles covered at 60 miles an hour is 20 minutes.
19.47 miles covered at 55 miles an hour is 21 minutes.
19.47 miles covered at 50 is 23 minutes. -- You can get all the way to snowbasin at this speed without risking a ticket.
LIAR! LIAR! LIAR! Everything he said was wrong.
You're reaching for straws Curmu-
See the back room deals...
It's now been over 3 hours.
Can you spell P-A-T-H-E-T-I-C!
801-317-0017 X232
Hey bob I would call you but I don't want to impead on your so called facts or have to correct you. I will not waste my time in talking to someone who can't tell the truth.
Why don't you just aswer all the questions that have been asked about this whole scheme. Bob don't you have the answers either?
What is really pathetic is Geiger's bush league challenges - posted as anonymous - for some one or other to call him direct. This I suppose is to challenge them to some sort of face to face physical challenge. This by the way is vintage Geiger. He is a hot headed punk that despite his 30 or so years still thinks that fighting it out in the parking lot solves problems or wins debates. I heard he even challenged some little grey haired lady at a city meeting once. The story is she slapped his face and he then had to have his daddy save him from her!
President Goff's plea to cool the stupidity sure didn't last long with this dolt.
It is simply amazing that the dumb little F**K still thinks that his long innane, rambling and ever so boring dissertations will some how win converts to this stupid gondola boondoggle. All this dumb assed talk about fractions of snow boarders that will do this or that is - well dumb assed, and that is all it is. Can you imagine what this little jerk could accomplish if he put all the time and energy he spends on this meaningless drivel to good use?
One telling, but small, point he makes is: "WSU is built on the Rocky Mountains". Got a hot flash for you genius boy, WSU is in the foothills of the Wasatch, not "on the Rockies". Yea, yea, I know, the Wasatch, in a very broad geographical sense is sometime considered to be part of the Rockies, but to the vast majority of people they are different mountains.
These LO hucksters lie when they aint even trying. Must be something in the cool aide that they drink at their frequent c****e j***s.
The second most recent anonymous:
First, I did not call Mr. Geiger a liar. You are confusing my posts with others'.
Second: Well, if you want to consider any connection, you could note that Trax connects right now with SLC airport. By cab. By bus. Both of which by the way you can ride to the Greyhound Terminal in downtown SLC, so by that standard we could claim Greyhound now connects Ogden to SLC airport.
Sorry, but the statement he made was very simple, and misleading and it's a statement that other LO supporters have made elsewhere and often: that the commuter rail will connect proposed gondola with SLC airport. It won't. You can tap dance around it all you want. Mr. Geiger's op ed piece is misleading when it states, three times, that Frontrunner will connect SLC airport with the proposed Ogden gondola. Twist and turn and send up as large a cloud of obfuscation as you like. It still won't change the facts: Frontrunner will NOT connect SLC airport with any Ogden gondola, should we be so foolish as to build one.
We seem to getting mean today. Oh well, works for me.
I'm glad anon brought up this idea that WSU should not be considered unworthy if it operates at a loss. The collateral benefits to society make it worth the costs. But should WSU be importing students at a loss? How many of the students add their enlightened souls to our community? How many return to their homeland having fleeced us for an education. I'm not saying that it's a bad thing; but it's unlikely to give Ogdenites any kind of economic boost. I have no problem with WSU operating at a loss -- but please don't spread misinformation about the "benefits" of bringing more students to the school. Especially when the students you're advertising are ski-bum wantebees. WSU should do things to attract a more academic minded student.
"Liar" has been a popular word today, let me introduce a new one: Hypocrite.
Mount Ogden Golf Course operates at a loss - as does virtually every munincipal golf course in the county. LO uses this as a reason to sell it, scrape it, and line the new course with 400 luxury homes for the rich. Hmmm, what word comes to mind when LO supporters claim that is OK to lose $ at WSU but not our community golf course?
Curmu-
Twist and turn as much as you want, Mr. Geiger's editorial delivered a very compelling message. Trying to defuse the issue is making you look silly.
I find it hard to believe that ANYone would select a university based on the fact that they could have a gondola ride from downtown Ogden to WSU - or vice versa. In addtion, the comparison between CSU and WSU (see the various comments) is absolutely idiotic!!
Ted, Rudi, Dan, and Curmu...
See you all later.
WSU could be the greatest beneficiary of gondola project
BY BOB GEIGER Guest commentary
As the only university in the world linked to skiing, back packing, mountain biking, natural rock climbing, ice climbing, artificial wall climbing, cross country skiing, hiking, snow-shoeing, telemark skiing, trail running, an urban business sector, an international airport, and major population centers via gondola and commuter rail, can Weber State University get a minimum of 1,000 additional, tuitionpaying out-of-state students?
Where did you get these figures at bob?
This is an important question, considering that the annual revenue to Weber State would be approximately $9 million (out-of-state tuition is approximately $9,000 per year). This is almost 10 times the size of its recent budget shortfall due to low enrollment. When you say would be? How are you so sure? What crystal ball do you have?
To achieve an additional 1,000 out-of-state students, WSU would have to attract an additional .11 percent (1.1 tenth of a percent) of the 18- to 24-year-old, college-enrolled, out-of-state, alpine skier and snowboarder demographic. Do you know that for sure, with out a doubt this will happen?
Also, WSU would have to attract an additional .056 percent (5.6 one hundredths of a percent) of the 18- to 24-year-old, out-of-state, collegeenrolled outdoor sport (back packing, mountain biking, rock climbing, ice climbing, cross country skiing, snowshoeing, telemark skiing, and trail running) demographic. These are future things, will and maybe are two different things. After all 15 years ago, some said building the conference center will bring business into down town. Where is it now? A million a year is what it cost to just run it, not only to say where is all the businesses?
(These figures were generated from conservative extrapolations of market data from Liesure Trends, the National Sporting Goods Association and the National Center for Educational Statistics. Leisure Trends and the National Sporting Goods Association are the leaders in consumer market data for the outdoor industry. Julia Clark Day, director of sales and marketing for Leisure Trends; Thomas B. Doyal, vice president of information and research, National Sporting Goods Association; and a Ph.D. at WSU reviewed the data. The data, and the claim that the extrapolations were conservative, was supported and not disputed. The Standard-Examiner has open access to the background data, write-up and expert reviews.) Is this not just speculation on the Associations part?
Can WSU do it? Let’s take a look at Colorado State University in Fort Collins, Colo. Fort Collins isn’t much different from Ogden. It’s a small town, with historic roots.
• Colorado State has 25,000 students. WSU has 18,128 students.
• Colorado State has an out-of-state tuition that is very similar to WSU’s.
• Colorado State is 70 miles from Denver International Airport. WSU is about 35 miles from Salt Lake International Airport, and will soon be connected by commuter rail.
• Colorado State is 40 miles away from the Rocky Mountains and the nearest mountain trail network. WSU is built on the Rocky Mountains, and has trails that depart out of the campus.
• Colorado State is over one hour away from the nearest ski resort, Eldora — ever heard of it? WSU is 20 minutes away from the nearest ski resort, Snowbasin — home of the 2002 men’s Olympic downhill!
• Colorado State’s marketing message is focused on location and access to outdoor recreation. Twenty-five percent of Colorado State’s student body is from out of state. Seven percent of WSU’s student body is from out of state. Some things are the same but what about the economy of each area? And the demographics of each area. Have they been considered?
Certainly by becoming the only university in the world linked to the aforementioned outdoor recreation activities, an urban business sector, an international airport, and major population centers via gondola and commuter rail, WSU can grow its student body from 18,128 to 19,128 with 12 percent of its students being from out of state and accrue an additional $9 million per year in out-of state tuition.
WSU can do it! If it can proportionally match CSU’s out-of-state enrollment figures, WSU would generate (.25 x 18,128) x $9,000 = $40.78 million annually in out-of-state tuition. Assuming that all of its 1,268 current out-of-state students pay full out-of-state tuition, this would be an additional benefit of $29.3 million. This would cover this year’s $960,000 budget shortfall 30 times over and require WSU to attract only .49 percent (4.9 tenths of a percent) of the 18- to 24-yearold, college-enrolled, skier and snowboarder demographic and .25 percent (2.5 tenths of a percent) of the 18- to 24-yearold, college-enrolled, outdoor sport participant demographic.
But again, let’s be conservative.
Let’s just assume that WSU will only get 1,000 additional new out-of-state students and $9 million annually rather than 3,264 additional students and $29.3 million! Let’s stay conservative and assume that the benefit WSU will receive will come entirely from skiers, snow boarders and outdoor sport participants. Let’s not include the demographic of 18- to 24-year-old out-of-state students who are not inclined to participate in outdoor sports but would find it financially appealing that they can live on campus, go to work, go to a Jazz game and catch a flight back to mom and dad without having to own a car and find parking! It’s only an additional .11 percent (1.1 tenth of a percent) of 18- to 24-year-old, college-enrolled skier and snowboarder population and an additional .056 percent (5.6 one hundredths of a percent) of the 18- to 24-year-old, college-enrolled, outdoor sport demographic. Once again how do you know all this will come to pass?
(By the way, did you know that the propensity for college enrollment for skiers and snowboarders is
significantly higher than the general population?)
As the only city in the world linked to major population centers, an international airport, a university and a mountain resort, the city and its businesses don’t need to restrict their marketing effort to 18- to 24-year-old outdoor sport participants. The world is Ogden’s market — and with the gondola, commuter rail and mountain resort: wow! And maybe and just maybe we could get the Jamaican bob-sled team here too!
By working together, WSU and Ogden can do amazing things. At a minimum, being conservative again, we could erase a $960,000 budget shortfall at WSU, and the city could have the revenues necessary to fund its fire department, police force and schools! As well as Mark Johnson’s Hummer!
Geiger is chairman of Lift Ogden, and chief operations officer of Descente North America.
Bob you say would be and or will, alot in this artical. please lets not speculate with the tax dollars!
Mr Geiger's editorial did indeed deliver a compelling message. The compelling message is that he is a chaff cloud spewing idiot. All this decimal point nonsense of what one winter sportster or another will use in determining which school to go to is just so much smoke. People go to college to learn and hopefully get a degree. The students that WSU wants to attract are unlikely to give a damn about some gondola to the train station, or up the mountain to some lame excuse for a resort. Beside which, what students have the discresionary income to be riding what undoubtedly will be a very expensive amusement park ride.
I also noticed that Geiger's long meandering piece comparing CSU and WSU actually makes the case for WSU to already attract sporting students. The question is, if his arguments are true, why aren't all those bone head snow boarders already here?
I thought this forum was supposed to be for civil debate about the many things going on in Weber County. I am very disappointed in the personal attacks and language being used to slander a person who is trying so hard to make Ogden a better place to live. Instead of attacking Bob for his ideas, I would suggest those who frequent this forum to come up with some of their own, or even better, attempt to work with Bob and Lift Ogden to help bring Ogden together again. Antoine de Saint-Exupery wrote, “One man may hit the mark, another blunder; but heed not these distinctions. Only from the alliance of the one, working with and through the other, are great things born.” I believe you can always look for the fallacy in any argument. Why don't we try to be a little more tolerant of each others views instead of being so negative and critical? I'm sure everybody would agree it certainly isn't getting us anywhere.
I guess if they wouldn't shove it down our throats I think we could be a little more tolant, till they use allitle more consenes building, I don't think you or any one will change here.
"They" are not the problem. "We" all are the problem.
Anonymous:
First of all, it would sure help a lot if you'd at least use a pseudonym, so someone can respond to you unambiguously.
Regarding WSU vs. CSU: I admit that I did not respond directly to all of Geiger's argument--I mainly pointed out that WSU and CSU are so very different, in so many ways, that comparisons are pretty much pointless. But if you insist, I'll try to address his argument directly.
Here's a summary of Geiger's central argment:
1. CSU's location offers lots of outdoor recreation opportunities.
2. "Colorado State's marketing message is focused on location and access to outdoor recreation."
3. About 25% of CSU's students come from out of state.
4. WSU offers even better access to outdoor recreation (as well as better access to a major airport).
5. About 7% of WSU's students come from out of state.
6. Therefore, if we build the gondolas, WSU will "certainly" attract an additional 1000 out of state students.
Points 1, 3, 4, and 5 are all accurate. Point 2, however, is a serious distortion. CSU's home page doesn't mention outdoor recreation (unless you count a photo that shows a knobby tired bicycle leaning against a tree on campus), and today's top headline is about a $19 million grant from the National Science Foundation. The main page for future students does mention "trekking in the Rockies," but only after listing such things as books, exams, community outreach, laboratory research, internships, and study abroad. The About Us page leads off with a discussion of the university's research mission, listing several of the specific fields of research; this is followed by two paragraphs about the faculty and teaching; only near the bottom of the page do we come to a couple of short sentences about the views of 14,000 foot peaks and the outdoor recreation opportunities.
But even if access to outdoor recreation were much more prominent in CSU's marketing, it would not follow that all, or most, or even any, of CSU's out of state students are there primarily because of the access to outdoor recreation. Most prospective students are smart enough to pay more attention to substance than to marketing. The point of my earlier post was that CSU offers a whole array of specialized academic programs that attract out of state students for reasons that have no direct connection to the university's location. Some out of state students may be attracted to other aspects of the campus or the town. While I don't doubt that proximity to the mountains plays a role in attracting some out of state students to CSU, the facts quoted by Geiger provide no way of discerning how large that role is.
Furthermore, even if all of CSU's 5000+ out of state students were there solely because of the mountains, it would not follow that building a couple of gondolas would attract even a single new out of state student to WSU. To paraphrase Curmudgeon yet again, WSU arguably already offers better outdoor access than CSU, so gondolas shouldn't be necessary. After all, what would the gondolas add? The urban gondola would provide one link in a multi-step transit connection to SLC and the airport, but it wouldn't offer much practical advantage over a bus (none over a streetcar), and anyone with luggage who can afford out of state tuition will probably prefer to pay 25 bucks for the direct, door-to-door service of an airport shuttle--or just get a ride from a friend. The mountain gondola (if it's ever even built) would lead to a miniature ski area that (if it can afford to operate) might be fun once or twice, for an hour at a time, after which our hypothetical out of state ski bum student would get bored and figure out that the extra half hour (or 15 minutes, if we believe Geiger) of travel time to get to a real ski area is very much worth it.
In any case, Geiger's conclusion (point 6 above) is a non sequitur. The facts that he quotes do not in any way support the speculative conclusion that the gondolas would bring 1000 (or any other number of) new out of state students to WSU.
Again, I think it's worthwhile to ask whether WSU would benefit from increased marketing to out of state students, emphasizing our access to outdoor recreation. My department has included a sentence about outdoor recreation in advertisements for new faculty, and this has probably attracted additional applicants. But it's a tough balancing act. You don't want to give students, or their parents, or faculty, the impression that university life is all recreation and no academics. And because people's recreational interests are so diverse, you don't want to promote one particular type of recreation at the expense of others. We've already got three ski areas in Weber County, but we have very few decent places for backpacking (Malan's Basin is one), and we have no capital-W Wilderness. Can we attract more students by promoting yet another form of commercialized recreation, or by promoting the opportunity to walk or bicycle on the Bonneville shoreline? I don't know the answer, and neither does Mr. Geiger.
Anon:
You want other ideas? Several have been offered. Like the trolley line from downtown to WSU,which the city-paid-for study said would be the best tranist option for Ogden. The gondola was part of the study, by the way, and the conclusion was that a trolley line from downtown to WSU would be the best option for the city.
The downtown to WSU gondola, however, is not a proven technolgy as urban transit. It works as transit up ski slopes for up-market crowds at resorts. But it is a real gamble as an urban transit device. It is slower than the trolley, it has to shut down in high winds and lightning storms, its cars are not air conditioned or heated [that should be fun on days like today], while the trolley cars are heated and airconditioned. No one so far as I know, for example, has considered matters like providing security and crime control on gondola cars. As urban transit in the US, it is not a proven technology.
Trolley transit in mid-sized cities, by the way, is a proven technology. It has worked, and is working, to increase real estate values, create jobs and bring millions in new investment to business venues all along the trolley routes in many cities. If you would like more information on this alternative proposal, I suggest you go to
www.smartgrowthogden.org
where you will find a great deal of it. Look particularly at the Portland experience.
Want another idea? How about Kent Jorgensen's "Option B." His suggestion is that WSU and/or the city of Ogden sell or lease Mr. Peterson as small amount of land at the head of 36th Street to use for the base station of his mountain gondola. He can then, using his own sources of funding, develop Malan's Basin as a resort complex. [Surely if the Malan's Basin resort is such a good idea, banks and pension funds, who normally underwrite major developments like this, will be eager to supply funding.] This way, he gets to develop his land, the city gets to keep its bench parklands, and does not have to invest $36 million in city funds to build a gondola from downtown to WSU whose major purpose would be to deliver customers to Mr. Peterson's gondola and resort. The 36th street location is already served by four buses an hour from down town... in each direction.
The city could then as well go forward with the trolley system from downtown to WSU to be built with 50% federal funds, 45% UTA funds and only 5% city matching funds. Plus, as a mass transit project [Note: the mayor has already conceded that the downtown to wsu gondola is not a mass transit project], operation costs for the trolley would come from UTA. Operation costs for the gondola would be Ogden City's responsibility. Jorgenson's Option B sounds like a win/win proposal to me. Why don't all you LO guys get on board and help make Jorgenson's plan a reality?
So, there are two other proposals for you to consider. There are others. Don't you think it's time you dropped the Lift Ogden party line that nobody has any proposals out there but Lift Ogden? It's not only demonstrably not true, it's getting old and more than a little shopworn.
PS: I agree with you, by the way, that personal attacks on Mr. Geiger [or any supporter of the gondola plan] are uncalled for, and, in my view, they impede the opposition to the gondola proposals. [I should add that this applies to personal attacks by LO advocates against opponents of the plan. Yes, they have happened too.] But going after Mr. Geiger's arguements and the evidence (politely so-called) that he offers in support is certainly legit.
Dan,
Thanks for being one of the few who actually puts some thought into your comments on this forum.
On Colorado State's Web Site under Student Life and Activities you can read the following:
"When you look back at your college experience, you'll probably think beyond the books, papers, and exams. You'll remember what you did, who you met, and how you felt - you'll remember the life and times you had while earning your degree. Creating those memories at Colorado State is easy; you can stand and cheer at sporting events, listen to live music, volunteer at a local school, lead the student government, play intramural sports, participate in clubs and organizations, and much more!" Among the items listed you will also find links to Outdoor Life & Skiing and Athletics and Recreation.
I think saying that item #2 is a complete distortion is unfair. I think every point Bob makes has logic and reason. Will the mountain gondola help bring more students to WSU? I believe it will. After all, it's not just a "gondola". It's a way to access, more easily, the mountains, trails, hiking, biking, mountain climbing, skiing, snowboarding, great views...etc. Again, I thank you for your rational debate, but I encourage everyone to try a litter harder to be a little more open-minded and not so nasty. Lift Ogden is not a group of people sitting around in "Smoke-filled rooms". Lift Ogden is made up mostly of concerned citizens/volunteers who care about Ogden and its future.
I just visited the sight and looked up their reasons for choosing CSU. #1 was very intersting. So were the links that were imbedded in it!
Why Colorado State?
There are literally hundreds of reasons to choose our university – you've just got to find the ones that work for you and future plans. Here are ten of those hundreds to help you get started on your journey through Colorado State.
1. It's unanimous, our location is tops - In 2005, Outside Magazine named Fort Collins (see link below) one of ten "New American Dream Towns" (see link below), and in 2000 A&E Television featured our hometown as one of America's ten most livable cities.
http://visit.colostate.edu/index.asp?url=location - QUOTE FROM THIS LINK: "a ridiculous bounty of backcountry options, including crags and trails in Rocky Mountain National Park (just 40 miles southwest), singletrack in Lory State Park, Summit County powder runs, and whitewater on the Poudre."
http://welcome.colostate.edu/?url=main_feature_outside - QUOTE FROM THIS LINK - "From camping, hiking, snowboarding, downhill and cross-country skiing to rafting, fishing, or water skiing, you’ll find it all within a short drive from town. And with the city’s agreeable climate of 300 days of sunshine a year, you’re able to take year-round advantage of the spectacular surroundings." - FORTCOLLINSLOT!
Keep pounding on Bob! You guys look silly.
Dear Ogdenite:
You wrote: Lift Ogden is made up mostly of concerned citizens/volunteers who care about Ogden and its future.
As is Smart Growth Ogden.
As for encouraging "everyone to try a litter harder to be a little more open-minded and not so nasty" , I heartily concur.
As if I haven't already said enough, let me respond to something else in Geiger's column. In his last paragraph, he mentions a $960,000 budget shortfall at WSU. These kinds of shortfalls occur quite often, usually because enrollment turns out to be less than whatever was projected some months previously. But if you think about it, you'd expect enrollments to be above projections about half the time, and below projections about half the time, no matter what the long-term enrollment trends or overall financial health of the institution. The fact that there's a temporary shortfall probably has more to do with the uncertainty of prediction than it has to do with any inherent financial weakness. Even if WSU were to start attracting 10,000 new out of state students every year, we'd still have budget shortfalls (probably bigger ones!) just as often, because we'd budget for the predicted enrollment, and the people who make the predictions would still guess high about half the time.
Like other gondolists who try to convey a sense of urgency in this debate, Geiger is confusing two vastly different time scales. Gondolas and ski resorts last for decades (unless they're abandoned). The conversion of public open space to private residenial areas would be permanent. To even consider this year's budget shortfall in making such a decision would be foolish and short-sighted. I commend President Millner for making it clear that WSU is taking the long-term view.
I have to agree with many of the posters that attacking Bob with gratuitous remarks only serves to weaken your position and strengthen his. Bob may be a little overzealous with his rhetoric, but I think his heart is in the right place even if his actions may be questionable. While I personally don’t agree with most of his statements in the article, we have to ask ourselves why he did the piece on WSU. Besides the few ancillary benefits Ogden will receive by having more students attend WSU, why would he waste the time to research the benefits that WSU will receive. While I think adding 1,000 students to WSU would have an impact on Ogden’s economy, I certainly don’t think that impact would be very large. So again, why broadcast to the Ogden residents the benefits that WSU would receive from the gondola when none of them will see any real tangible benefits for the city. Time for some conspiracy theory.
I’m fairly certain that LO and the city knows that the Board of Regents at WSU think the gondola proposal is extremely risky and will likely vote to retain their property. Additionally, why give up land that they may want to use in the future for expansion of the campus or heaven forbid, parking. If they sell it off now they drastically limit their ability to grow the campus, except of course for remote campuses, such as the one in Layton. But then another city gets the benefits, not Ogden. Of course the Board of Regents has yet to come out and stated this publicly, but then again, they haven’t even been formally asked to sell the land yet so how could they. As many have stated, the whole gondola proposal is lined up like dominoes; remove one and it just doesn’t work. They are starting to realize that the WSU land is vital to the gondola and it’s likely to slip through their fingers if they don’t act quickly. I don’t know if LO thinks that a show of support by the public will cause the Board of Regents to throw caution to the wind and just sell the land despite all the risks, but you can never be certian. The Mayor and LO might be able to convince the council, and maybe even the majority of the public, that the gondola is the only way to save the city, backing this up with fantastical numbers and claims of grandeur, but I would bet that the Board of Regents will likely do their own risk/benefit analysis rather than taking at face value the numbers that the Mayor and LO produce.
While I’m not quite the wordsmith that some of the regular posters are, and my argument is likely rife with logical holes, after reading this forum for quite some time, these are the conclusions, of which there are probably may, that I have come to. LO and the Mayor are a smart bunch (no pun intended) and nothing they do is random or for not. They are vary apt at the art of persuasion and spinning the facts to support their argument. Not to say that the other side doesn’t use some of these tactics, I simply want to make the point that there is a reason that they decided to focus on WSU and it isn’t because they ran out of other gondola material.
Lastly, though my ranting may seem anti-gondola, I like to align myself with the majority of the public that thinks there are just too may unanswered questions to lend support either way on this issue. I will however state emphatically that based on current information this is one of the riskiest proposals I have ever been privy to and unless there are some major revelations with Petersons final proposal we need to keep asking questions.
Curmudgeon,
Thanks for your ideas on alternative transportation for Ogden City. I do have a couple of questions though. How much would a Trolley Transit system cost and how long would it take to get it? My other question is where do the Federal and UTA funds come from?
Jennifer that is so lovely,
I guess what I meant was, where do UTA and the Federal Government get their funds? Sorry for not being more clear.
Ogdenite,
Thanks for your interest in carrying on a genuine discussion.
I didn't say that Geiger's claim ("Colorado State's marketing message is focused on location and access to outdoor recreation") is a "complete" distortion; I said it's a "serious" distortion. Obviously CSU's marketing does include this message, and you don't have to look hard on their web site to find it. But they don't give this message top billing over academics (research and teaching), so I think it's a serious distortion to say that their message is "focused" on location and recreation. Rather, I would say that their marketing is focused on their academic strengths, with proximity to the mountains mentioned as an added bonus. And although it's speculative to associate the school's marketing with the reasons why students actually go there, I would guess that academic programs are also a far more important factor in most students' decisions than recreation opportunities.
Just for fun, I just looked up a comparable land-grant university in a state that's not near mountains: Iowa State University. (I picked Iowa because I used to live there and I know enough about their university system to guess that the comparison is valid, though I was never associated with ISU. And I'm not cherry-picking here; ISU was the first and only school I thought to check.) ISU has 26,000 students, about the same size as CSU, and has a slightly higher percentage of out of state students: 29%. The breakdown of graduate/undergraduate students is also about the same. Tentative conclusion: Proximity to mountains (or to outdoor recreation opportunities) doesn't play a dominant role (perhaps not even a measurable role) in determining the percentage of out of state students enrolled at land grant universities.
Ogdenite:
Estimates from those in the business say Ogden trolley could be operational in as little as 7 years or as much as 15. Seven presuming the city begins the process of applying for funds and doing the necessary spade work [environmental studies, etc] now. I do note that Mayor Godfrey is doing what he can to delay the city's implementation of the Wasatch Regional Council's recommendation [trolley] even though the Council has endorsed that study and its results. Hizzonah is dragging his feet, evidently because he thinks adopting the trolley proposal will kill his gondola/gondola land specualtion scheme.
So: in a few as seven years, or as many as 15, depending on how fast the city moves, etc.
Ogdenite,
Responding to the questions you asked of Curmudgeon...
There's lots of information on the streetcar/trolley proposal in the transit section of the Smart Growth Ogden web site.
The recommended streetcar system from the Intermodal Hub to 4400 S. Harrison was estimated to cost $100 million for construction, including a 30% contingency margin. This is just about twice the cost of a gondola system with the same station locations. The version of the gondola being proposed by the city has less than optimal station locations (it would bypass most neighborhoods along its route), and probably some other cutting of corners to save $, so it would probably be somewhat cheaper, but still at least $30 million and quite possibly $40 million. There are certainly ways to cut costs on the streetcar as well, though in the long run that would probably be a bad idea. The operation/maintenance cost of the streetcar has been estimated at $2.6 million per year, compared to $4 million for the gondola.
UTA has estimated the time to plan, finance, and construct a streetcar system at 7-15 years. However, their share of the funding would not be available in 7 years unless they get an additional revenue source (which would probably require a tax increase of some sort). With existing revenue sources, they estimate that the minimum time would be 10 years. For comparison, I would estimate that there's no way the Peterson project could be completed in less than 4 or 5 years, and it's easy to imagine delays in financing that could add indefinitely to that. I suppose the city could go ahead and build the urban gondola in as little as 3 years (a few months for decision making, a year for engineering work, 1.5 years for construction), but it would be foolish to do so before the mountain gondola and resort are also being built, and that ain't gonna happen overnight.
I assume that your question about where FTA and UTA get their funds was mostly rhetorical. FTA's funds come from the same places as all other federal expenditures, namely income tax, social security tax, various other taxes, tariffs, and fees, and borrowing to cover the deficit. UTA's funds come mostly from sales tax, supplemented by fare revenue and some additional federal grants. So ultimately, nearly all of this money comes from the taxpayers--which I assume was your point. But the fact remains that the streetcar would cost Ogden City many times less--perhaps ten times less--than the gondola. And equally important, the city would have no responsibility for operating and maintaining the streetcar; that would be done entirely by UTA.
Jennifer,
Don't do what? Answer so slowly that by the time I hit "publish", someone else has already answered? Sorry, I'm only human.
Three full and three 1/2 columns given by the SE to young Bob.
Column 3, paragraph 4: "only university in the WORLD linked to...outdoor recreation activities, and urban business sector, (Oh? Is that Ogden now?),an international AIRPORT and major populaton centers (Layton? Clearfield? ) via GONDOLA and commuter rail."
And again bottom of Column two:
"WSU....and SL "International Airport will soon be connected by commuter rail."
The news displayed a map of projected stops for the commuter rail this evening. The westernmost stop is South Jordan. A real ski mecca.
Column 4, bottm paragraph: "Let's just stay conservative and assume that the benefit WSU will receive will come entirely from skiers,snowboarders and outdoor sports participants.
I'm concerned that West Point, and the Naval Academies are not turning out well rounded grads.
"BTW did you know that the propensity for college enrollment for skiers and snowboarders is significantly higher than the general population?" Column 5, third paragraph.
Gee, what about those poor underprivilegedstudents who attend school in GA, FL, TX, CN, NJ, NY, NE, IA, MN, PA, and the other 49? How DO those universities keep up their enrollment?
"....the city and businesses (hey! we're a city now!) don't need to restrict their marketing effort to 18-24 year old (no..just to 2nd graders, as that's about how long it'll be fore the gondola and Malan's will
be built), sports participants.
"The world is Ogden's market...and with the GONDOLA, commuter rail and MOUNTAIN RESORT: wow!"
Isn't it amazing what an attractive vibrant place Ogden is when selling the gondola to out of state schmucks, but such a dead town when selling the hype to the locals??
Bob than gives a big BTW to the fire and police dept's. Last paragraph (mercifully)
"blah, blah....and the city could have the revenues necessary to fund its fire department, police force and schools."
How magnanimous of young Bob to think of the police and firefighters. Even if it was just an afterthought, I'm sure our public servants are grateful for the bone.
One needn't belabor the assininity of getting to SnowBasin in 20 minutes. However, this is a good idea as it will help in the 'quotas for food' program initiated by our benevolent mayor and administration to help the police with the burden of raising a family.
Oy vey...the SE is hard up to print this kid's prattle. All these figures pulled from his downy head that appears to have been up in the rarefied air..of Malan's?
If I was drinkin' woman, I'd have a triple rootbeer, on the rocks.
Wonder if Ms Milner would care to join me?
To True Ogden:
Are you sure it was Richard Burton "the actor" that wrote the "Ogdenlot" poem? Could it have been Richard Burton the world famous explorer of a hundred years earlier who wrote it? That Burton did visit Utah in the 1800's, spent some time with Brigham Young and travelled about the area a little. I don't know that Richard the actor ever had a connection in these parts, although he could have written it about some other Ogden. (There are several you know)
To Ted: I think you have Bobby Geiger all wrong. He is sincere and highly energetic in his pursuit of this Gondola Maddness, and he for sure rubs a lot of people the wrong way. But he is not a "punk". He just has a dream, an impossible dream in my opinion, and he has boundless energy in pursuit of that dream. That don't make him a bad guy.
Thanks Dan,
So we have a hundred million dollar streetcar/trolley which we strap on the backs of everybody in this country or we sell a very difficult, poorly designed golf course which isn't "open space" to Chris Peterson for redevelopment and take the proceeds to fund a "link" from downtown to the university and the mountain. Hmmm...I think I understand why the Federal Government is so big. Every time a city/corporation needs funds to fix a problem they essentially put it on everybody instead of trying to handle it on their own. I'd like to think we're better than that. Besides, the gondola doesn't take away the ability to add a streetcar/trolley in the future. I love the idea of a streetcar, but I don't think it makes a lot of sense to sit around and hope that we can get one in seven to fifteen years and do nothing in the meantime.
Also, this arguement is more than just about coming up with ideas. It's about seeing ideas through to a finished product. Just my opinion, but it appears as though Smart Growth is more worried about hindering other peoples ideas than having the resolve to promote their own ideas through to the finish.
Do the Weber County Commissioners know how to use the mail system, or a phone, or emails, or are they just lazy?
Tell them to stop wasting our money!!
MINUTES OF THE BOARD OF COMMISSIONERS OF WEBER COUNTY
Tuesday, October 4, 2005 - 10:00 a.m.
Commission Chambers, Weber Center, Ogden, Utah
Consulting Agreement between Weber County and the Ferguson Group L.L.C. - Contract C2005-125
The contract amount is $120,000 per year or $10,000/month payment to Ferguson. Commissioner Cain said that the Commission had considered this contract seriously because they believed Ferguson would be effective in representing the county. She added that under this contract there was no percentage paid of any gain to the county. The contract can be terminated with a 30-day termination notice. Chair Bischoff said that several years ago the county paid about $30,000/year for a State lobbyist and he felt the county could more effectively lobby locally for itself. He stated that the Ferguson Group was well versed in Washington and would represent the county's position on issues. Ferguson had been very successful and retention of clients was very indicative of their accomplishments. Commissioner Dearden felt it was worthwhile to go forward with a trial of this contract.
Commissioner Dearden moved to approve Contract C2005-125, Consulting Agreement between Weber County and the Ferguson Group L.L.C.; Commissioner Cain seconded, all voting aye
Do the Weber County Commissioners know how to use the mail system, or a phone, or emails, or are they just lazy?
Tell them to stop wasting our money!!
MINUTES OF THE BOARD OF COMMISSIONERS OF WEBER COUNTY
Tuesday, October 4, 2005 - 10:00 a.m.
Commission Chambers, Weber Center, Ogden, Utah
Consulting Agreement between Weber County and the Ferguson Group L.L.C. - Contract C2005-125
The contract amount is $120,000 per year or $10,000/month payment to Ferguson. Commissioner Cain said that the Commission had considered this contract seriously because they believed Ferguson would be effective in representing the county. She added that under this contract there was no percentage paid of any gain to the county. The contract can be terminated with a 30-day termination notice. Chair Bischoff said that several years ago the county paid about $30,000/year for a State lobbyist and he felt the county could more effectively lobby locally for itself. He stated that the Ferguson Group was well versed in Washington and would represent the county's position on issues. Ferguson had been very successful and retention of clients was very indicative of their accomplishments. Commissioner Dearden felt it was worthwhile to go forward with a trial of this contract.
Commissioner Dearden moved to approve Contract C2005-125, Consulting Agreement between Weber County and the Ferguson Group L.L.C.; Commissioner Cain seconded, all voting aye
Ogdenite,
Reading your latest, I'm thinking of taking back what I said about your being interested in a genuine discussion.
"strap on the backs": Do you truly object in principle to accepting federal and UTA funds for transit projects? Did you speak up when we got funding for the Intermodal Hub? Did you speak up against the Ogden Transit Corridor Study itself, which wasn't cheap? Should Ogden take over operation of the UTA bus routes within our city? Are you willing to sit back and watch Salt Lake and Davis Counties move full steam ahead on their transit projects, funded in part by Weber County's sales tax, but not pursue any such projects ourselves? If your answer is "yes" to all of the above, then all I can say is I admire your consistency, but you're wishing for a political and economic system that's very different from the one we have.
"difficult, poorly designed golf course": Is this your personal opinion, or are you reciting a LO talking point? I've been asking every golfer I can what they think of the course, and opinions are polarized: many love it, many hate it. How Peterson is gonna make it any better by moving half of it onto much steeper slopes is beyond me.
"which isn't "open space"": Let's not play semantic games. The golf course is zoned as "open space" on the city's zoning map. And remember that it's also used for sledding and XC skiing in the winter. Plus, the sale would include an additional 60 acres of undeveloped, city-owned open space east and south of the golf course, including the Mt. Ogden Exercise Trail, the Strong's Canyon Trail, and a portion of the Bonneville Shoreline Trail. If that area isn't "open space", I don't know what is.
"sell...and take the proceeds": So instead of taking advantage of federal and regional funding sources, you prefer that the city sell its assets to fund public works projects? When we need another transit line will we sell another 20% of our park land for development? What happens when we run out of assets to sell?
"the gondola doesn't take away the ability to add a streetcar/trolley in the future": In practice, it does. UTA has made it quite clear that if we build the gondola, they will not support a streetcar in the same corridor. They only support projects above a certain threshold benefit/cost ratio. The partial redundancy of the gondola would lower the marginal benefit of the streetcar below that threshold. Of course, Ogden City could always raise its own funds (sell off the remaining 80% of our park lands?) to build a streetcar.
"I love the idea of a streetcar, but I don't think it makes a lot of sense to sit around and hope that we can get one in seven to fifteen years and do nothing in the meantime": You don't sit around and do nothing. You start the environmental studies. You decide as soon as you can where the stations are going to be, and publicize these decisions so private developers will know where the good investments are. If possible, you adjust bus schedules to mimic what the streetcar will do, to attract as many riders as possible to these locations during the interim. Then you "get in line" for funding and do the engineering work so you're ready when the funding arrives. The process is entirely analogous to what was done with the FrontRunner. Look at downtown Ogden. We aren't sitting around and waiting for the FrontRunner, we're building and investing to get ready for the big day, now only a year and a half away.
I'll tell you a story. When Godfrey was first running for mayor in late 1999, he told the Sierra Club that he was a strong advocate of commuter rail between SLC and Ogden. We asked him how long he thought it would take, and he guessed "ten years". When he took office, to his credit, he didn't just sit around and wait, nor did he say there's no point in trying because ten years is too long. He started the process, doing everything he could to make it happen. Turns out, his estimate was about two years on the high side--not bad.
Back to the streetcar vs. gondola: How long do you think it would take for the Peterson project to be approved, designed, financed, and built? The mayor says we can have the gondola "now", but he also says the whole project has to happen at once. I don't see how it could all be done in under 4 or 5 years, and I haven't heard any specific promises from Peterson or the mayor regarding timeline. In fact, I asked the mayor in late April what timeline he would propose, and he refused to answer.
Lets face it: Anyone who's investing a hundred million dollars in a project, whether they're the government or a group of private investors, is going to insist on careful, deliberate planning to ensure that their money isn't squandered. This is actually a good thing, no matter how frustrating the delays might be to the spectators.
"Smart Growth is more worried about hindering other peoples ideas than having the resolve to promote their own ideas through to the finish": Look, are we debating the proposals, or are we debating the merits of SGO as an organization? When the topic switches from the proposals to SGO itself, it's a sure sign that someone has run out of constructive things to say. I would encourage you to spend an hour reading the large quantity of information on the SGO site. Then you'll have a lot more facts to discuss, and as a side effect, you might notice that SGO is more about informing the public and getting people involved than it's about hindering anyone's ideas.
No matter what inane statistics the pouty, condescending Geiger spouts; regardless of the fact that the Lift Ogden mantra of $500 million, 1,200 jobs, $9 million for WSU, dozens of companies lined up to move to Ogden, the hotel with Prada and Mahlano Blahnik on the ground floor is composed entirely of opaque fantasies; despite the criminal actions of Little Matty Godfrey in fraudulent accounting and the devaluation of public property for the purpose of its cut-rate sale to a private person with whom he shares numerous conflicts of interest (and rest assured, his actions in this "project," not "proposal," are being scrutinized for their legality as we type), the basis for Shill Ogden's and the mayor's scheme is absurd, frightening and quite laughable: a silly, unresearched and unfounded Jetson-car gondola from Wall to Weber will solve our collective problems and bring Ogden to greatness! Where is the Harvard or MIT study regarding the panacea gondola? Where can we get our hands on the papers that prove a two-stop gondola over decayed housing and up a strip mall thoroughfare is an economic gold mine? I am continually aghast that these children actually think a fantasic castle, with sewage serviced via orbs and automatic sprinklers, will be built without a road. They are quite the collection of dupes, but the problem here is that they are playing with our land and our community. Know this: There will be nothing on the table when Peterson presents Godfrey's proposal to the city council except this: Will you sell 160 acres of some of the most valuable land on the Wasatch Front for a quarter of its value to a rookie speculator to build unneeded homes and destroy a good municipal, publicly owned, spectacularly located golf course -- little Godfrey and the Geigers know nothing of the golf business, except how to bankrupt a course (see Brigham City muni) -- to fund, at most, one-third of the most ridiculous thing imaginable: the gondola to nowhere, used by no one.
Dan S. -
I agree that you don't just sit around... You get going...
SmartGrowth Ogden wants a street car. Lift Ogden does not oppose a street car.
Go get started on your project. Lift Ogden did on theirs. Why do you continue to petition LO members to pursue a street car? Aren't you capable of taking pro-active action to get things done rather than fight Lift Ogden all day?
Yeah, Dan, what are you waiting for? Get that streetcar built! Don't delay.
Dan,
It is so refreshing and enlightening to read your well reasoned comments.
Since we haven't seen any real facts and figures from the LO people...only 'pie in the sky' numbers and promises; I think we can ignore the 2 posts following yours.
Yes! A trolley will be the most eaconomical public transit. Not only, as you pointed out again, will we be eligible for UTA and Federal funding, but a trolley system has been shown to be GOOD for business.
Trolleys evoke nostalgia and charm.
Thanks for articulating the sensible workable position.
Jason W...I'm sorry...I meant the two posts AFTER your's.
Enjoyed your remarks also.
Sharon,
I was just joking about Dan building the streetcar, I thought it was a silly comment.
Insulate:
Okay, I'm laffing!
anonymous:
As I said to Ogdenite, when the topic of discussion switches from streetcars and gondolas to the relative merits and activities of SGO and LO, it's clear that someone has run out of constructive things to say.
The fact is, at this time we're no closer to having a gondola than we are to having a streetcar. LO's extensive noisemaking (aided by considerable resources from the city) notwithstanding, there is still no proposal before the City Council, WSU, or the Forest Service for any aspect of the Peterson project. Nor does the public have access to any hard information about the project, aside from the government-funded feasibility studies for the urban gondola, one of which also provided hard information about the streetcar. Perhaps Peterson will really produce a lot more information by the end of this month as he has promised; perhaps not. But if and when he does, I don't particularly care what LO's role has been, if any, in actually developing this proposal. I'd rather discuss the proposal itself, and its alternatives.
Dan,
Thanks again for your response and I apologize for letting my emotions get the better of me. I have a hard time understanding why Smart Growth is so concerned about taxes and then starts promoting a streetcar/trolley which costs about three times as much. Sure we can ask for Federal funding, but that's exactly what everybody else in this country is doing and this is why we all pay so much Federal income tax. The cost to Ogden for the hundred million dollar streetcar might be considerably less, but then again we're only talking about Ogden's streetcar and not the impact of all of these Federal requests combined together for which most of us don't know about and can't do a whole lot to debate and protest.
I'm an average golfer and enjoy playing Mt. Ogden because it's challenging. I've taken five different people to this course in the last month. All but one of these friends got so upset that they swore they would never return. These guys are my friends and, like me, are average golfers. But they found the course extremely un-playable and difficult. I don't post this to attack the employee's who run the course, as I believe it's one of the few in the area that is very well taken care of. But my argument is that it could be made a lot more playable and Chris Peterson would be a fool to purchase it if he didn't think he could do so. When I say it isn't "open space", what I mean is that it's a golf course. You must pay an $11.00 fee to play nine holes in order to truly benefit from this "open space". That's not to mention that before it was a golf course it was truly "open space" to the entire public. The kids could get lost in it, find snakes, camp, do whatever. Now thanks to George and Mary Hall, we have a golf course that I believe is not designed for the average golfer. And this is a public course, but is not inviting to the public and is being used against the proposal of a significant investment in Ogden. This open space argument is kind of silly anyway. What about the acres of land and “open space” which will be so readily accessible once the mountain gondola is built to take you there. Sure, there are many who enjoy the mountains already, I’m one of them, but what about the rest of those who can’t hike and climb and sweat there way up the mountain. We have open space all around us and the gondola will help everyone enjoy it.
It has always been Chris Peterson's desire to improve upon what we already have, not to ruin it. He has promoted his ideas to get a feel for what people think before he spends a hundred thousand or more to give everybody the details and information they so desire. It is his intention to improve upon the golf course, trails and access to the mountain to do everything we've already talked about. Is building additional high-end homes which are not in a gated community but which attract people with higher incomes and more wealth for our city such a horrible idea? I absolutely prefer that the city sell the golf course to make it better and attract more wealth to our city. If the streetcar/trolley is truly feasible then let's make it happen. But let's not kid ourselves; it's still in the end costing everybody more tax dollars and not just because of our streetcar.
In the end, I wonder just how flexible Smart Growth is with regards to a sizable private investment in Ogden. It seems as though every point of this investment is being shot down. The urban gondola, the mountain gondola, the sale of WSU land, the sale of Mt. Ogden golf course and 60 acres of undeveloped open space.
Where is Smart Growth really trying to work with Lift Ogden on any of this proposed investment?
Trying to "work with lift Ogden" is a complete waste of time. If you do not buy into the whole gondola scheme lock stock and barrel, with absolutely no questions ask, all you get from them is insults, abuse and a mindless repeat of their basic mantra of $500 million, 1200 jobs, $10 million in new taxes, etc, etc, etc.
I have seen people at their pep rallies ask sane sensible and pertinent questions only to be shouted down and insulted. They are strictly a one way group mentality, and they do not want or allow any descenting points of view.
There is no "working with" demigods like that. Mayor Godfrey has a long and insidious history of not listening to any one about anything that contradicts his pre-conceived notions.
Come on Fred,
You can do better than that. Now we're back to name calling and slander.
It seems difficult for the SGO bunch to grasp the concept that Chris Peterson is the one with the money and the proposed investment. A Lift Ogden advocate can't just decide to arbitrarily change part of the proposal. Lift Ogden people support the plan because it promotes things that they would like to see happen in their city. Is the entire scope of the present proposal perfect? of course not. As we continue to debate this topic I believe we will be able to find some middle ground. Questions are great as long as the answers are taken for what they are meant instead of twisted into lies and intentional distortion.
I’ve also attended the “pep rallies” and have never seen anybody get shouted at or insulted. These open houses have been informative and helpful in explaining the essence of the proposal.
By the way, if you want to find the true origin of the insults and abuse, take some time and read the history which has been collected over the past six months on this forum.
Ogdenite,
Your principled opposition to federal (and regional?)transportation funding is noted. I wonder why you don't take this opposition a step further and also oppose transportation spending by municipal governments.
Thanks for your first-hand report on the golf course. Would it be fair to say that the difficulty of the course is related to the slope angles on which it is built? Your belief that Peterson will improve the course seems to be based entirely on the assumption that he wouldn't buy it if he couldn't. But he knows that the golf course is gonna be a money loser no matter what. His profit will come from the housing developments.
I'm getting sick of these personal attacks on George and Mary Hall, which are based almost entirely on ignorance. Mary, first of all, didn't even meet George until many years after the East Bench development went in. George was very much the junior partner in the venture, in his 20's at the time. And the city decided to sell the property well in advance of any involvement of the Halls in the project. If you think it was a bad idea to sell 10% of Mt. Ogden Park in order to build a golf course, you should blame the government officials who made the decision at the time, not the developers who offered to buy the land that the city had already decided to put up for sale.
I know lots of people who don't play golf yet still value the golf course for a whole variety of reasons. I've already mentioned the skiing and sledding. There's also the aesthetic value, the wildlife habitat it provides, the dark skies above it at night, and the fact that it doesn't generate a lot of traffic passing through the neighborhoods below.
Speaking of traffic, what's your understanding of where golfers are supposed to park if the Peterson proposal goes forward as currently described?
Your faith in Chris Peterson is truly impressive. How much do you really know about him? Do you have some inside knowledge of his plans, his financial resources, and any other investors who are involved? If so, please share it.
Ogdenite said "It has always been Chris Peterson's desire to improve upon what we already have, not to ruin it. He has promoted his ideas to get a feel for what people think before he spends a hundred thousand or more to give everybody the details and information they so desire."
I attended one of the WSU sessions held in May and we were not permitted to ask Chris questions. Comments were left on oversize notepads. Chris has shown no interest in modifying his plan based on input received since then. Even protests from Snowbasin re: their connecting with Chris' project are stonewalled, based on Ogden City and Lift Ogden website information.
The hundred thousand "or so" is a necessary expenditure to investigate the feasibility of the Mt. Ogden end of the project. No feasibility studies, no project. That's just a normal cost of doing business, not a gift from a generous benefactor.
Dan,
Thanks again for your comments and questions. I'm sorry for my slow responses as I've been in meetings and such throughout the day.
The reason I don't take the "opposition a step further" is that I feel that local governments are the place to assess & debate most transportation needs. Moreover, I believe I made the point that taxes are taxes and the real issue is the cost and the time frame to implement these mediums of transportation. There is no question in my mind that the streetcar would be a far better way to move people around the city. The gondola has been proposed as a way to link people from frontrunner & downtown to the University & the mountain. Temporarily, I would think the city could have buses running back and forth between downtown and the university/mountain to assess usage and to determine if the inner-city gondola is justified. If Chris Peterson were to build a gondola and resort in Malan's and the city did nothing to link downtown to this development, we would be shooting ourselves in the foot. This is the kind of development that attracts people, and if we don't "help" them find downtown, they probably won't get there. This is more along the lines of the Kent Jorgenson Option "B" plan.
I think it would be fairer to say that the difficulty of the golf course has more to do with the uphill and downhill lies. These shots entail hitting a golf ball that is sitting higher or lower than the plane of your feet and prove to be the most difficult shots a golfer takes. There are many steep slope golf courses in the world which are very playable. Mt. Ogden golf course was designed with narrow, very sloping fairways. The fairways that seem to be the problem are those running North and South as they slope to the West. Many times an individual can hit a perfect drive only to have his ball roll off the fairway into the rough. Not every hole is this way, but as I said before I don't believe Chris would purchase this golf course knowing it was going to be a loser. With proper course design many of these difficulties could be alleviated. I hope he profits from the housing developments, but I know he intends to not lose money on the golf course.
My intent to interject the fact about George and Mary Hall was to bring to light the hypocrisy in SGO's argument against the sale of the golf course to build a "gated community" as I know the Hall's are members of SGO. I didn't mean to make a personal attack on them, but can see now that is exactly what I did and I'm sorry.
As for "aesthetic value, the wildlife habitat, dark skies above at night", and the traffic...I think it would be safe to say these same things would be enjoyed in Malan's basin and would probably be even better.
As for the parking for the golfers, I guess Chris is going to expect them to hoof it in on foot. :) jk... I'm sure when Chris gets done with his official proposal and study this and your other questions will be sufficiently answered.
Ogdenite
You wrote:"It seems difficult for the SGO bunch to grasp the concept that Chris Peterson is the one with the money and the proposed investment"
Therein lies the rub. One of the things that Peterson and the Mayor have repeatedly said for sure is that in order for the plan to go forward the golf course and other lands, including WSU land, has to be sold to Peterson so that he can build 400 expensive homes on that land in order for them to finance the mountain gondola and resort. The proposed city leg of the gondola would be built with the proceeds from the sale of the public owned golf course and city land.
The short version is that Peterson does not have the money to build the gondola or the resort. If he did, none of this debate would even be going on. He would simply apply for the permits and write the check. If he did that, I do not think there would be much opposition to the plan.
The very most distastefull part is that the LO crowd, and mayor, repeatedly say that the tax payers and citizens of Ogden will not be paying for it (just like the mayor did for four years on the Rec center before he baited and switched on us at the very end)
Their very words of using the golf course proceeds to build the city leg of the gondola of course contradicts their claims that the citizens will not be on the hook for this scheme. In some circles this is called talking out of both sides of your mouth. It is disingenuous to the extreme.
Peterson is not now, nor ever has, indicated that he, or other private investors, were willing to commit $500 million, up front, of their own money to this scheme. They are talking about taking a valuable public asset, the park lands, and leveraging that land into the deal. This means that the tax payers and citizens of Ogden will be putting up all the risk capital by way of said land. In exchange for this extremely risky investment we, the tax payers, are promised some nebulous gains like $10 million in extra tax money. This would not benefit any one in Ogden. All we would get for our huge gamble would be bigger city government. Not better city government, just bigger and more bloated. So if the whole project goes bust, the citizens will take all the losses. If it, by some miracle, succeeded then Peterson would own it and reap all the profits while the citizens of Ogden would get little or no reward, other than some fuzzy promises.
I think that if you really believe in Peterson so much, you ought to ask him to quit all the decisive BS that is racking Ogden and just write the damn check. In other words - he ought to put up or shut up.
By the way, I have no connection with SGO although I do think they are on the right track of promoting the idea of citizens asking questions instead of just blindly following some big talkers with big promises.
Anon too,
I was not able to attend either of the WSU sessions, but have attended the others and in every case for which I've participated Chris has stood for hours after his presentations to answer questions to the best of his ability.
I realize the hundred thousand dollar expenditure is necessary. But as Dan so carefully pointed out with his comment...
"Let’s face it: Anyone who's investing a hundred million dollars in a project, whether they're the government or a group of private investors, is going to insist on careful, deliberate planning to ensure that their money isn't squandered. This is actually a good thing, no matter how frustrating the delays might be to the spectators."
I realize his investment is much smaller but it's still a sizable investment and he is being careful to test the waters before his jumps in. This is just being smart, even if it's frustrating to the spectators.
Ogdenite:
The solution to all this seems to be Jorgensen's Option B. Peterson gets to build his mountain resort, and mountain gondola [financing to be arranged by him], the city gets to keep the Mt. Ogden parklands and does not invest thirty six million in a downtown gondola, and can go forward with the trolley plan, and while it is coming, bus service to Mr. Peterson's mountain gondola base [already running at four busses per hour in each direction] delivers people to the resort gondola from downtown and takes them back.
However, the LO people I've talked to don't like the plan, arguing that Peterson cannot possibly raise the money from investors to build the mountain resort without developing his vacation villas on the golf course land first.
Which, as has been noted, pretty much takes care of the LO myth that Peterson personally wants to invest $500,000,000 in Ogden.
If he can develop Malan's Basin and his Mountain gondola via Jorgensen's Option B, more power to him.
Curmudgeon,
I agree that a variation of Kent Jorgenson's idea makes the most sense and will probably have to materialize if anything is going to happen. I don't doubt for a second that Chris Peterson could build a gondola and a resort in Malan’s Basin with his own pocketbook, but Ogden can benefit immensely from the proposed sale/development of the Mt. Ogden Golf course and surrounding land. This city needs to attract more wealth and deeper pockets. This won't just benefit Chris and his resort, it will benefit everyone.
If we can demonstrate that we don't need the inner city gondola and initiate the request for Federal funding for the streetcar, Ogden City could take the proceeds of the sale of the golf course and use it to build a nicer, more accessible park somewhere downtown which would be more central to everybody in Ogden. Just an idea....need to get to bed. Thanks for the dialogue.
I think we ought to look at this another way, what is the motivation behind Bob G directing this kind of PR spin toward WSU. Well, WSU seems to be the stickiest wicket in the whole scheme. If you think about it, the city can ultimately ram the rest of the plan down our throats with no vote, one-way communication, and half-truths. You know, the same way they rammed everything else down our throats (severance packages, bowling allies, arcades, you get the picture).
BUT, they cannot get permission to rob the university of its land without permission of the state Board of Education. Admittedly, I don’t know anything about anyone on the Board, but I think it’s safe to say neither does the LO braintrust, and we already know Mad Matt’s track record with state officials. And if I know educators like I think I do, Chris P. has a better chance of striking oil on his new property, than getting the Board to sell off a third of its 4th-largest university. WSU is the last jewel in the crown, and holds important strategic value to the Gondola deal. Without it, the whole thing is inarguably unjustified.
That being the case, instead of wasting anybody else’s time and continuing to divide the community, why not simply ask the Board if they would under any circumstance agree to the land deal. My hunch is no, and the whole think can be put to sleep for another 80 years.
Of coarse, we have to consider this is Godfrey’s Ogden and so what will actually happen is they will spend all the money and do half of the construction, before the resort is built and without Board approval. Then when the Board rejects the proposal, Peterson will say nevermind, and the city will build a bobsled track on the golf coarse connected by gondola to the roof of Mackay-Dee hospital, and pretend that’s what they intended from the beginning. Keep spinning it Bob G, WSU is the key.
I can't get enough of those Geiger editorials. Why does the Standard keep printing their letters? I thought we were all going to take a chill pill...
Just for fun, I thought I'd show what the 'plan' looked like a hundred years ago. It's a wonder why it never happened. See link here.
Ogdenite has obviously not played Mt. Ogden during the last two years, as a perfectly struck drive bouncing into the rough is a physical impossibility now with the improvements in conditioning and playability. This perception of the course is, unfortunately, a holdover from the past that was indeed justified at the time (maybe five years ago). If Ogdenite happened to play Wolf Creek recently (which now carries a $135 greens fee for regular non-member play), he or she would find Mt. Ogden in far superior shape. It is challenging, not punishing, and it's affordable, as any muni should be. Peterson cannot and will not improve the course with the land the city owns east of the existing holes; it's a crock. Peterson is after the property, and Little Matty Godfrey is proposing to give it to him because he is so childishly myopic about the gondola to nowhere, he is willing to jeopardize our shared city assets to fund at most one-third of it. Regarding Peterson's grandstanding speech about committing $100K to his, I mean Godfrey's, proposal: big deal. Any credible, experienced developer understands he or she must spend upwards of $50K to create a proposal for a six-lot subdivision in Hooper. For 400 $500K homes on faults, foothills and veritable cliffs, he or she would nave to spend about a half-million. Peterson, on the other hand, has the Little Godfrey sycophant using city time and money to create the very plot that would rob us of this asset. There is no $500 million. There is no castle being built without a road. GE and Yahoo! are not moving to Ogden because we have a silly Jetson car winding through our dilapidated streets. Housing developments such as what Godfrey/Peterson proposes take a town 30 years to see any return after what it expends in terms of infrastructure and services. This proposal actually costs Ogden money. This is asinine.
Today we are treated to some more Geiger hyperbole!
'1200 new jobs'...doing WHAT??? pray tell. Please.
Another big lie...'$6000. investment' made by the erswhile mayor for our own good.
On the one hand, Geiger sputters that Ogden is in need of Peterson's fix...but then thanks all those bsinessmen and visionaries who have made Ogden thrive.
Which is it?
The vitriolic attack on Amy Wicks for ASKING a question sure did strike a nerve, eh?
Just think what a few more questions will do....unravel these elitists like an old worn sweater.
Keep at it, Amy!!! You are appreciated.
The DNA runs brown in the cells of the Geigers'..Sr and Jr.
Ogdenite -
You wrote: "If we can demonstrate that we don't need the inner city gondola and initiate the request for Federal funding for the streetcar, Ogden City could take the proceeds of the sale of the golf course and use it to build a nicer, more accessible park somewhere downtown which would be more central to everybody in Ogden"
Well said, and I agree wholeheartedly. If the golf course has to be sold, it would benefit every one in Ogden if the proceeds were spent on another park or our old and failing infastructure.
To trade off any of the citizen's property for such a highly speculative thing as this gondola idea borders on insane.
What right does a lowly council person have to question the Geiger regime?
Armysarge:
Well, you have to understand that Geiger The Elder, Geiger The Younger, Hizzonah The Mayor and Mr. Peterson don't want anyone asking questions, and especially not council members, because they have no answers.
Which is why SmartGrowthOgden, which constantly urges citizens, council members, everyone, to "Ask Questions!" has them so nervous. If this habit of asking questions about the gondola/gondola and Peterson real estate speculation catches on, their pie-in-the-sky pipe dream is finished.
Sharon--
Speaking about striking nerves...
The two Geiger articles have ignited 93 posts on this blog.
You're talking about sewage running through their veins...
Others have called them liars, insulting, condescending, dumb litt F)$%, dumbassed, huckersters.. etc.
All Geiger Sr. said was that Amy Wicks might want to look around Ogden and observe the support for the Gondola and stop acting like its an indictable offense for private investors to support an economic development project in Ogden.
In all 93 posts, I still haven't seen anyone make an effective argument that WSU can't get .11% of one consumer demographic and .056% of the other. Also, I haven't seen anyone try to attack those figures.
The argeuments about the connection to S.L.C. international didn't hold much water...
neither did the arguments about Snowbasin being significantly more than 20 minutes away.
Further, the challenges that CSU doesn't significantly market proximity to outdoor recreation didn't work out either.
Also, we were left with arguments that CSU simply has better facilities and prgrams that WSU. This doesn't change that their marketing message still pushes proximity to outdoor recreation and that they see this message as a benefit to their recruiting efforts. It also doesn't change that WSU could probably pursue better facilities and programs if it had the revenue generated from more out of state students.
Don't get me started on the statement that more out of state students means more debt for WSU.
Finally, the issue of "mission" at WSU. Yes, it is a fact that the powers in S.L.C. establish the "mission" of WSU. To some degree they have established the "mission" of Ogden. We have a chance to do something here that breaks the glass ceiling that they have placed on our community and University. We are in control of our own destiny.
Sharon...
Vitriolic? Who's vitriolic?
Had a nerve touched? Who's had a nerve touched?
I only share this with you to help you with a little self introspection. Its safer do to it here than in person, because I hear that you slap people that challenge you face to face.
It does seem pretty silly how the Geiger family has recently taken to quoting decimals to the second and third place these days in a strange attempt to justify this gondola project. Do they really think that these make for persuasive arguments. My two neighbors who tried to read the first long editoria by one of them couldn't even finish the letter it was so convoluted and tedious. The second one yesterday was equally strange as it seemed to follow the same misdirected logic - or lack thereof.
Maralin,
Because you or your neighbor have a tough time reading or following the logic is not an indication that it is poorly written or convoluted. Some people have a tough time recounting what they've read in a Dick and Jane book.
I'm sure that you are smarter than the comments you just made. Go back and re-read the articles. Put on your thinking cap. The Geiger articles demand that you think, not just respond vascularly to emotive statements like..."Don't support this mush, it's going to ruin everything."
You are better than the statement you just made. If your child has difficulty understanding something he or she has read, you probably would sit down and help them or tell them to go try again.
Go visit a neighbor whose got a degree in business or marketing, or just sit down and give it one more try.
I know that you can do it.
Your turgid article is a textbook case study of faulty logic, son, you'd be wise to stick to what you know best... schlepping ski industry haberdashery.
Marilyn
First let's address the math.
If the money brought in by the gondola project were a dollar,
The monies spent to date, in dollars, to see if the project is viable, would be like dividing a penny into 1000 equal peices. One of those pieces would be proportionaly equivalnt to the city's investment.
I hope this helps you and your neighbor.
Marilyn,
Please read Michael's argument. This is an example of simple emotive argumentation masked in big words. To help you:
The Geiger's are stupid. They should not write articles. They should only sell ski gear.
Very compelling. It nails them right to the wall. The facts and figures have been proven false, and the logic of their statements has been dessimated!
You can now go on with your day having been educated the WCF way!
Marylin,
Wait, Michael's arguement was even simpler:
You Argument dumb. You better at selling ski gear. Sell Ski Gear.
This is a more focused summary for the layman.
All hail WCF argumentation!
Marilyn,
Summary of the great Sharon's argumentation:
Sharon said...
1)
Today we are treated to some more Geiger hyperbole!
- For the Layman - Today there was an article written by a Geiger.
- Thought - This is a fact. An article was in the paper by a Geiger.
2)
'1200 new jobs'...doing WHAT??? pray tell. Please.
- For the Layman - 1,200 new jobs. tell us more.
- Thought - 1,200 new jobs isn't bad for Ogden.
3)
Another big lie...'$6000. investment' made by the erswhile mayor for our own good.
-For the Layman - $6,000 invested by the Mayor. This is a lie.
-Thought - If Sharon calls it a lie, then you can count on it. Her intuition should mean more to you than reality and evidence.
4)
On the one hand, Geiger sputters that Ogden is in need of Peterson's fix...but then thanks all those bsinessmen and visionaries who have made Ogden thrive. Which is it?
-For the Layman - Private financial support for an economic development project is an indication that Ogden businesses have extra money. Mr. Geiger claims that Ogden businesses need help.
-Thought - Sharon doesn't think that business people who need more business can/will invest in opportunities that they believe will bring them more business. According to Sharon... If you have a few bucks to pool with your neighbors to invest in your collective future, then things are stellar for you and your neighbors.
News for Sharon - Good business people don't sit on the street waiting for people to save them. They take risk. They take action. They make an effort.
The vitriolic attack on Amy Wicks for ASKING a question sure did strike a nerve, eh?
-For the Layman- Aggressive attacks on Amy Wicks asking questions indicates that Mr. Geiger was bothered by Amy Wick's questions.
-For Sharon- Apparently it is vitriolic to ask a City Council member to observe generally the business support for an economic project and to consider their support as being possitive. What is vitriolic about that?
Just think what a few more questions will do....unravel these elitists like an old worn sweater.
-For the Layman - More questions will likely bother Mr. Geiger even more. Identifying him as an elitist is another example of being vitriolic.
-Thought for Sharon- The questions did not unravel anything. They hi-lited how responsible our city government is being and that Amy Wicks is the mouthpiece for SmartGrowth Ogden.
Keep at it, Amy!!! You are appreciated.
-For the Layman - GO AMY GO!
-Thought - Go Amy Go!
The DNA runs brown in the cells of the Geigers'..Sr and Jr.
-For the Layman - Poop runs through the Geigers' veins. This is figurative speaking of course. This is an example of a tru vitriolic attack.
-Thought for Sharon - This is how people come to view you the way that they do.
Geigers' -- I mean, Anonymous' -- arguments are pointless because they are predicated on the inane concept that a silly gondola from Wall to Weber is an economic development engine. No one disputes their 100ths and 1000ths because the basis for these derivatives is childishly speculative; in Geigerian fashion, I postulate that having Little Matty Godfrey trade our sidewalks for 25 Whack-A-Mole games will bring to Ogden five circus companies, $10 million for WSU, 2,000 jobs, $9 million for our schools. And if you're not with the Whack-A-Geiger project, you're agin' us all! God help us!
Marilyn,
Layman Summary of Jason W. Argument -
Argument #1 -
Geigers' -- I mean, Anonymous' -- arguments are pointless because they are predicated on the inane concept that a silly gondola from Wall to Weber is an economic development engine.
Point #1 - It is pointless to argue this because the arguement is silly. - Another good WCF point.
Thought #1 - Jason W. - If you say so. Another great WCF arguement.
Arguement #2:
No one disputes their 100ths and 1000ths because the basis for these derivatives is childishly speculative; in Geigerian fashion, I postulate that having Little Matty Godfrey trade our sidewalks for 25 Whack-A-Mole games will bring to Ogden five circus companies, $10 million for WSU, 2,000 jobs, $9 million for our schools. And if you're not with the Whack-A-Geiger project, you're agin' us all! God help us!
Point #2: No one argues the numbers because anyone can present numbers out of the air.
Again...If you say so that the numbers are meaningless and arbritrary...another great WCF argument.
Thought #2: Jason claims that the numbers are basically pulled out of thin air, but he does not account for the fact that the numbers were checked by the two leading consumer research groups for the outdoor sports industry and by direct communication with CSU. The other article is less an issue of the exact figure and more an issue of the fact that the city should spend a little money considering an economic development project. The magnitude of the project dictates the magnitude of the investment made to consider it. Heck, the city had to spend money to consider the building of the subdivision at the top of 29th street.
The fact that these two simple articles have generated over a hundred posts on this blog indicates that the gondola has a greater magnitude that many of the other projects that don't seem to be of concern to you.
Anonymous said... I guess, then, that all us morons (morons defined as those who question the Geiger regime) should just sit down and shut up - let all the business (apparently you think these folks are the only ones who can think) folks run the show. WAIT!!!
Wasn't it some of these "forward thinkers" who moved us so far ahead in the past? (i.e..the Mall)
Oops - sorry. I forgot, we don't get to ask questions.......
And SHAME on you AMY WICKS!!!!!!!!!
Marilyn,
Layman Summary of Armysarge:
Issue#1:
ArmySarge said...
Anonymous said... I guess, then, that all us morons (morons defined as those who question the Geiger regime) should just sit down and shut up - let all the business (apparently you think these folks are the only ones who can think) folks run the show. WAIT!!!
Summary Statement - Because our arguments have been countered or shown to be emotionally based, we should not be quiet.
Thought - No, be as aggressive as you would like. But don't equate statements like: "You are a liar, therefore it is bad..." as a fact or as a reason to discount evidence.
Issue #2:
Wasn't it some of these "forward thinkers" who moved us so far ahead in the past? (i.e..the Mall)
Oops - sorry. I forgot, we don't get to ask questions.......
Summary Statement - Because the Mall didn't work out, this won't either. - Don't believe people who promote business in Ogden because the mall didn't work.
Thought - Commond WCF argument.
Issue #3-
And SHAME on you AMY WICKS!!!!!!!!!
Summary: This statement was made in jest. He really didn't mean it.
Thought: Amy Wicks has every right to ask questions. The city must answer the questions asked of them. The Business community does not have to disclose its donations to support an economic development project.
Anonymous said... In reply to your absolutely idiotic response,.....
....never mind - I had better not.
I'm afraid we have completely lost track of something important.
An "Anonymous" LO person said:
"First let's address the math.
If the money brought in by the gondola project were a dollar, The monies spent to date, in dollars, to see if the project is viable, would be like dividing a penny into 1000 equal peices. One of those pieces would be proportionaly equivalnt to the city's investment."
The point is not the math. The point is that the mayor has absolutely no business spending public funds to get information for, and to publicize, what is at this point a private enterprise.
Until/If the downtown gondola project is actually approved, public funding should not be used to investigate, publicize, etc Chris Peterson's personal project.
Suppose I wanted to build a lemonade stand in my front yard (planing on paying city business fees and taxes, of course). Would the city study lemons, lemon suppliers, stand materials, for me and publicise my personal business on the city website and in the water bill? My lemonade might become a magnet for tourists from all over the country, so it would certainly be deserving of support.
While Lift Ogden assumptions and misconceptions (also known as smoke and mirrors) need to be countered, we should not be distracted by trivia.
Don't just ask questions, ask GOOD questions.
Anon:
Well, some good questions have been asked. Like, on what grounds does LO claim the gondola/gondola scheme and Peterson land speculation will create 1200 jobs? The mayor has been asked, directly, several times, at his Tuesday night Lift Ogden cheerleading sessions. He has refused to answer on grounds that the people asking only want the answer in order to criticize it.
Certain folow up quetions that have been asked of the Mayor and Peterson in re: those "1200 jobs": many of the promised jobs will presumably be working for the Malan's Basin ski operation. Will they then be only seasonal jobs? {E.g. compare Snow Basin January payroll with its June payroll.] How many hundreds of the 1200 promised jobs will be only seasonal then? How many part time? Exactly where will these jobs be created? So far, no answers. Not from the Mayor, not from Peterson, not from Lift Ogden.
Another good question that's been asked of the Mayor, in public, often: on what do you predict that these projects will increase Ogden property tax revenues by $10 million a year? His answer: the only people asking just want the answers to attack them. In short, he's refused to answer.
Good follow up questions: since we don't know how many upscale vacation villas can actually be built on the property [Peterson has conceded this, saying that 400 is the hoped for number but the actual number will have to await studies not yet done]. We don't know what they will sell for. Current assessed value for homes of similar square footage as those Peterson is hoping to build is about $350,000 on the average. If that becomes the taxable value of the homes he builds, even if he builds all 400 [which is doubtful] will they generate $10 million a year based on current tax rates? If the mayor knows, he's not telling.
Will the market absorb 400 units at the price Peterson wants to sell them for [which price we don't know yet]? Any marketing studies been done to address that? We don't know.
How much additional infrastructure will the city have to build to accommodate 400 new housing units high on the bench? E.g. new sewer expansions downslope from the development [a city responsibility not Peterson's], and how much will the cost of the added infrastructure, services, etc detract from that promised additional $10 million per annum in tax revenues for Ogden?
Since the Mayor has refused to answer any of these questions, the prediction of $10 million a year in additional tax revenue remains, at best, highly speculative. But then, to our shame, the City website still insists the gondola/gondola will connect Ogden with Snow Basin resort. Even Bob Geiger has dropped that claim. At last. So expecting straight answers to real questions from the Hon. [?] Matthew "Mr Integrity" Godfrey seems pretty pointless.
Those good enough questions for you, anon? They seem pretty good questions to me. I hope MY city councilman, Mr. Safsten, is thinking about them, and asking them. Every chance he gets.
...."Amy Wicks might want to look around Ogden and see the support..."
What a bunch of that stuff in your and your daddy's DNA.
Many, if not most of those red, 'real estate looking signs' were placed by you Lo's on peoples' lawns who have no clue what the gondola is about.
Many call it 'that ride up there.'
Shame on you people. As someone said about all your percentages...they are irrelevant.
And Bob....why do you think you have to answer every post with more of your drivel?
Know what kid? You're a bore. Your ego is so much larger than your smarts and grasp of reality.
Go take a cold shower or a hike!
Doesn't daddy expect you to do some work for your big job title?
Haven't heard from Sharon, so I'll ask you...vitriolic enough for you, boy?
Sick of,
You're right...Bob is a bore.
He's also rude and lacking in self-confidence.
That's why he picks fights with white haired ladies at those Council meetings.
He likes the sound of his voice. That's why he's delusional enough to think he has something enlightening for us to keep posting here and remarking on what everyone else has to say.
I feel pity for you, Bob. But, I suppose you fill an unpaid post on the Mayor's BS staff.
Bore?
Come on. Bob Geiger's letter generated more that twice the discussion than the other topics on this blog did.
You all struggle not to trip over yourselves in your race to attack him whenever he writes a letter.
The topic of the Gondola takes up 90% of the blogging on this site.
If he's so irrelevant, how come you choose to elevate him the way you do?
An irrelevate bore shouldn't get the time of day. Your elevated dialogue should be saved for more important people and issues.
Not so though... 111 posts!
Dearest Anonymous
Babbling Idiots and other scammers always get more press than intelligent well reasoned people. Stupidity is after all great entertainment. That's why clowns are such perennial hits at the circus. That's why the cable guy is such a hit.
The Geigers, which I assume you are one of, are so ridiculous in their false premises and tireless attempts at intelligent argument that they make it fun for people to poke fun at.
The more you try to sell this snake oil with your rambling and disingenuous screeds, the further you get from pulling it off.
I do hope that you and the rest of your mindless groupies keep posting and writing letters to the editor with these unproven promises and claims. The more you do it the further you get from victimizing the good people of Ogden with this boondoggle.
Or is it a boondola, or is it a gondoggle. Whatever it is, it a scam that would take the citizens of Ogden 50 years to recover from if by some miracle you actually pulled it off.
If it is such a great idea, why don't you and your chisler buddies slap leather and build the damn thing yourself. Why do you keep angling for the tax payers to pick up the tab for your fantasies?
You could take all the PR savy in the whole LO crowd and stick in a Skeeters ass and still have plenty of room for all the brains of all the Geigers combined.
When the gondola idea dies, the Geigers will fade back into anonymity. This is idea after all is their main claim to fame, their only chance to shine.
Perhaps that is why they are trying so hard to peddle this project.
Their posts as "anonymous" herein may be just them practicing for their inevitable fate. Their current stardom is on very thin ice and they know it. They have tied their fate and fame in Ogden to the Godfrey star which is heading toward obscurity in a year and a half.
It is a shame they have been infected with this gondola bug, they do seem to be pretty nice people otherwise.
OT, about a non-imaginery investment in Ogden, anybody know where in Ogden this U.S. Foodservice facility is going? And, is this the same as West Liberty Foods that was originally planned for Pleasant Valley?
http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,640196695,00.html
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