It's been almost a year since Chris Peterson emerged upon the Emerald City scene with his acquisition of the Malan family mountain property east of Ogden, and the announcement of Mr. Peterson's proposed concept, "envisioning" a new "ski resort" at Malan's Basin. During the ensuing period, the citizens of Weber County have witnessed considerable mission creep in this project, as it has transformed from a purely private one, (to be purportedly funded entirely by Mr. Peterson's own financial resources,) into a project that is now revealed to be entirely contingent upon very substantial public capital investment. In recent months, promoters of Mr. Peterson's Malan's Basin resort have aggressively pushed the proposition that public risk-taking in this venture is not only appropriate but economically necessary. Indeed, the "sacrifice" of Emerald City's precious and irreplaceable Mt. Ogden Parklands property has been characterized as a key component in Emerald City's ongoing "revitalization."
Throughout the course of the public discussion, proponents of the Malan's Basin Resort proposition have remained silent about essential details of this project, withholding information even so fundamental as the proposed Mt. Ogden Park purchase price and payment terms. Pertinent citizen questions have gone routinely unanswered by Mr. Peterson, and this so-called "private developer" has instead relied mainly to date upon a well-choreographed and intense public relations campaign, plainly designed to appeal to emotional citizen sympathy.
Among the details most noticeably lacking in Mr. Peterson's proposal has been objective information concerning the Malan's Basin Resort's feasibility. Whereas various individual citizens and citizen groups have repeatedly (and unavailingly) requested objective and independent engineering and ski resort feasibility analysis to justify the public's participation in this project, it appears that the only pre-development professional Mr. Peterson has hired so far in this endeavor is a real estate development lawyer whose avowed mission is to push for the a priori "gutting" of Emerald City's existing planning and zoning scheme.
As to the sorely-neglected feasibility issues however, we believe the public wait is over. We received last week a highly relevant document, focusing on the feasibility issues that have so far been absent from the public discussion. Prepared by Don K. Wilson, an Emerald City citizen with a professional background in both mechanical engineering and ski resort design, we believe this document presents the objective and independent professional analysis we've all been looking for.
Without further ado, we present this morning for our gentle readers' attention Mr. Wilson's Feasibility Study Letter, together with Mr. Wilson's Professional Resume, (which speaks for itself concerning Mr. Wilson's professional credentials.) Although these documents were submitted in mid-July to City Council leadership, we believe this morning's article will be the first general public dissemination of these documents. Mr. Wilson has put considerable effort into researching and assembling his primary Feasibility Study, and would like to have it circulated as widely as possible. Weber County Forum of course shares Mr. Wilson's interest in that regard, and therefore encourages its readers to read and study this document, and to pass this article and Mr. Wilson's herein-contained Study & Resume along to interested friends and associates.
Please take note that we have redacted Mr. Wilson's private contact information, (as it appears on the originals of the documents which we received) in the interest of Mr. Wilson's internet security and privacy. Interested individuals who would like to contact Mr. Wilson for more information, or to take issue with his methodology, analysis or conclusions, may do so by emailing your humble blogmeister through the contact link in the upper-right sidebar, or through the email links provided in each document. We will of course pass along any inquiries directly to Mr. Wilson.
We thank Mr. Wilson for his highly-competent and enlightening contribution to our community discussion, and invite our gentle readers, of course, to offer their own thoughts and observations in the lower comments section.
Update 9/23/06 6:35 a.m. MT: After exhibiting to Mr. Wilson a pattern of continuing disinterest in the matters contained in Mr. Wilson's feasibility opinion article, Don Porter does a complete about-face, and publishes a slimmed-down version in this morning's edition.
In classic Standard-Examiner "he said-she said" fashion however, Mr. Porter sees fit to distract from the cerebral content of Mr. Wilson's analysis, by running an offsetting, all-purpose, entirely irrelevant Boss Godfrey rah-rah piece, addressing none of the issues raised by Mr. Wilson's article.
We think Boss Godfrey sets a new personal best this morning, with more delusions, half-truths and tall-tales per column inch than anything printed in the Standard-Examiner ever before. He definitely has the mind-numbing gondolist spiel down pat. And why not? He's been reciting this carny-style sales pitch non-stop daily for almost a year now. Our personal favorite is the one where Godfrey reiterates, with a completely straight face, that Chris Peterson is going to reach into his own hip pocket and "invest" a half-billion of his own dollars in Emerald City.
And we breathlessly await the next upcoming Std-Ex editorial page Fact-based Reason vs. Blind Faith Showdown: Dueling articles between some local world geography expert, and Boss Godfrey's representative from the Flat Earth Society .
Have at it, gentle readers.
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87 comments:
Rudi:
Thank you very much. Nice to have a professional opinion of the potential for a ski venue at Malan's Basin rather than mere anecdotal reports about "my friend was skiing there last year and he said it was not good" or "my friend was there last year and he said it was great."
Thanks to Mr. Wilson for doing the analysis, and to you for posting it. Let's hope the members of the Council will take his work seriously.
Has he forwarded his letter, summarizing his study, to the members of the Planning Commission? I would imagine so, but your headnote does not say specifically. Forwarding to the Weber County Commission and the all the candidates for election to the County Commission this November might be prudent as well.
I wonder if he has submitted his letter to the SE for publication as an op ed piece?
I say many, many thanks to Don Wilson for this information.
Can someone get him and Cris Peterson together for an informational meeting for the public to attend?
Ogden Snow Monkey:
So, the SE declined it. It sends along a reporter with the Godfrey Gondola Sales Team to Telluride and Kellog to report their gushing enthusiasm for gondolas. It has declared a moratorium on the publication of letters involving the gondola and Peterson proposals, or so it has been reported. [Why, I wonder? At whose request?] And now it declines to print the only thing approaching a feasibility analysis of Malan's Basin as a ski development that we have. It sends a reporter to the SGO sponsored presentation on streetcar proposals and a comparsion the street car and gondola proposals at the library Tuesday, and the resulting story devotes a thrid of its space to summarizing the Peterson plan, including reporting the mayor's support for it. [Did the Telluride and Kellog articles devote a third of their space to summarizing opposing views to the Sales Team's? Will the SE coverage of the upcoming Mayor's dog and pony show at Union Station on 28 September devote a third of its column inches to summarizing the street car proposal and support for it?]
Sad sad situation at the SE these days. We spend a lot of time talking about way to improve life in Ogden, the business climte here, etc. One way might be to have in Ogden a newspaper that does not consider itself to be the docile handmaiden of City Hall, a paper that does not run the risk, often, of falling afoul of the "truth in advertising" laws because it calls itself the Standard Examiner rather than the Standard Advertiser.
A home town paper that is not an independent paper, that does not see as one of its major responsibilities holding public officials to account, asking them to support their claims and justify, on the record, their actions is not fulfilling the role the founders envisioned for a free press in a free country.
Thomas Jefferson wrote "...were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter." But then, he didn't have to read the Standard Examiner every morning.
This is a long time coming. Thank you Mr. Wilson for adding some desperately needed expert analysis to this issue. I was beginning to wonder if there was anyone in this area with any level of engineering and technical expertise who gave a damn whether our mayor would compromise the future of our city's finest parklands and lead us astray from a proven UTA supported transit system.
So with Malan's development impractical we can recover our golf course from the eyes of these greedy speculators and forget the town gondola which was not even a necessary part of the whole plan. Hopefully Ogden can refocus it's attention on a proven transit system and relegate this era to the scrapheap. Thank you again, Don WIlson. You may have helped me regain my own breath. If there is anything I can do to contribute to the refinement or dissemination of this report I am at your service. This report can now serve as the best reference to shatter the house of cards Peterson and the Mayor have so carefully stacked.
An interesting side note about the SE, I have not been to Ogden long enough to know the history of the SE and where they have located their offices and production facilities. I do notice they are located in the BDO. This may give some indication of their support for Godfrey who spearheaded BDO(Am I correct in that). I would have a lot more confidence in a newspaper that maintained, at the very least, their editorial offices in the center of the city they call home. A downtown area of most cities traditionally harbors city government, county government(if the county seat), School district offices, Bank headquarters, Police and fire central stations, and a host of support businesses to round out the whole affair. The SE is now not responsible to the city ofr it's citizen's and can carry on how they please in the relative seclusion of the BDO.
tod...interesting view, but a bit off base.
The Standard moved to BDO for the same reason other companies have...more space (for a new press in their case, rail access for paper delivery, and cost.
Also, the Standard sees themself as a Northern Utah, er, I mean, "Top of Utah" newspaper, not just Ogden. If I remember correctly, at the time of moving they considered 3 locations: BDO, Layton and (I think) Clearfield. Again I'm working from a distant memory, but the reason they couldn't stay downtown was because of the new press facility.
I know that most of the newsroom would have preferred to stay downtown, but the management is ruled by money and the desire to be the paper of Centerville to Logan. They don't want to be Ogden-centric
To Tod Transit-
The Standard Examiner used to own property and be located in downtown Ogden between 23rd and 24th which extended to Larkin Mortuary.
They did a tax-free exchange Mayor Godfrey's RDA experts arranged. They relocated to BDO and got a facility worth several million.
The U. S. government had put in a $5 million electronic system in one of the buildings the Standard got in the exchange just before Ogden was given the old Defense Depot site.
The law requires a public hearing so Mayor Godfrey had the public hearing on a Friday morning at 10:00 a.m. in his private office.
If I remember correctly the figure given for the Ogden Standard Examiner property was around $600,000.00 and they got property worth several million in a tax-free exchange.
This is why the Standard will never print anything negative about Ogden.
Thanks Ex Employee for that insight. It's sad when regional economics has a newspaper transitioning from being the foundation of the local fourth estate to simply the cheerleader for growth and economic prosperity. A little balance representing the needs of the wider population and less emphasis on feeding the suburban frenzy. At the very least they have a responsibility to represent the widest possible objective view on issues of local or regional concern. Their recent behavior slanting discussion and reporting of the gondola nonsense has shown them to be weak and inconsequential. When we finally beat this stupid Peterson Project in to the ground I hope they learn from their error.
Thank you Del for your additional comments.
I'm not wanting to defend the Standard Examiner, but I will defend the newsroom. They aren't writing stories with the mentality that the city did this and that for the Standard. In fact the turnover in the newsroom is so fast that only a couple even remain from that time frame. Furthermore general managment is never in the daily editorial meetings for the daily content.
If you haven't been there, I think you'd be surprised to find how little editing and managment thought goes into it.
I would say this though, if you pis off the "wrong people" i.e. advertisers, you hear about it.
I'm not surprised.
Today's publishing and media in general is guided by structural constraints. Layout, headline, story heirarchy, advertisers, commercial time etc. get in the way of traditional journalism. Objectivity has suffered as journalists fear losing access to their competitors by pushing to hard on the powers that be. Media has saturated our culture. It's self authorized, carefully crafted messages have dulled the perception of what constitutes objectivity. Reader beware...
On the SE as regional paper
I was surprised some months ago to learn that the SE's circulation in Ogden City is far less than half of its total circulation. I don't recall the exact figure now, but I think it was south of 20% from Ogden City. I have no problem, then, with the paper being what circumstances pretty much require it to be: a regional paper.
That said, the paper does do a Weber County edition and it does cover Ogden news. Being a regional paper in no way diminishes its responsiblity to report Ogden news well, and to hold Ogden public officials up to probing press scrutiny. Constantly. [And Riverdale officials, and Davis County officials, etc.] Wider coverage responsibilities may require less space devoted to any particular municipality, but it does not excuse lackluster coverage or unbalanced coverage.
As for the value of the properties involved in the exchange, if they are accurately stated above... well, if the city offered me an exchange that beneficial, I'd grab it too. [Hmmmm... I may start scouting out homes worth five times my own, just in case the Mayor calls with an offer....]. The really disturbing part of the story above is that "public hearing" [politely so called] held at 10 AM on a work day in the Mayor's office. Hizzonah Mayor Godfrey honoring a hair-splitting reading of the law while defecating on its spirit. Imagine that....
Does any one know what happened to and what is going on in the old Standard Building on 23rd? Does the city still own it? The building was originally a National Guard Armory before the Standard took it over.
Later I heard part of it was used for the Children's Museum with a huge forgiveness of rent from the city because of the Mayor's wife's involvement. True? Who knows with this corrupt administration.
As I seen printed here in the past and which I agree - The Standard is steadily slipping into irrelevance. Partly because their readers are dying off and younger people are getting their news from the net and other sources, and partly because of their very lame news and editorial coverage. This recent imbarrassment being a typical example of their ineptitude. It is rather sad as they actually used to be a pretty good news paper.
I certainly do not have the inside information to refute ex-employee on the inner workings of the Standard
but it is difficult for me to believe that the bean counters are not influencing the editoril and news departments. The paper sure reads like it was done by accountants and sales people.
To Return to the Wilson Letter....
Just rereading it, and I noticed this passage: "I am unaware of particularized weather and snow data for the area in question."
Absent that data, wouldn't gambling Ogden's biggest park and its bench parklands and tens of millions of its dollars on a gondola / Malan's Basin development that absolutely requires sufficient snow for a sufficient time each year, year in and year out, to make a ski resort in the Basin viable constitute a very risky speculation?
If no one knows if the snow conditions in the Basin are minimally sufficient long enough year in and out to support a ski venue at those elevations, I can understand why Mr. Peterson has had no luck finding private or commercial lenders to invest in his Basin speculation.
Regarding snow conditions in Malan's Basin:
Peterson has made a big deal out of the fact that the west slope of the Wasatch Mountains typically receives more snow than the east slope. Given our winter weather patterns, I'm sure he's correct, though the difference at a given elevation between the east and west sides of Mt. Ogden probably isn't great.
The northwestern aspect of the proposed Malan's ski slope should hold snow pretty well during the usual ski season. The main problem there would be when we have a dry December so there's not enough accumulation to ski on by Christmas. Before Snowbasin had snowmaking equipment it wasn't too unusual for them to postpone opening until January. Similarly, a Malan's Basin ski area would require snowmaking equipment as insurance against dry winter conditions. No reason the snowmaking can't be done, but it's an additional expense for a project whose economic feasibility is already highly questionable.
However, as Wilson points out, this northwest-facing slope is only about 150 acres in size and provides only 800 vertical feet of fall-line skiing. The proposed ski area would also take in the wind-scoured ridge at the top of the slope as well as the narrow valley at the bottom. Both the ridge and the valley face due west, so sun exposure will be a problem, at least in the later part of the season. Beyond the ridge and the valley are slopes that face southwest, which would provide poor snow conditions most of the time. Expanding the ski area onto those slopes almost certainly would not be feasible, so the entire ski area would be limited to less than 200 acres.
Wilson mentions skier capacity but doesn't give any numbers. I've heard that Snowbasin's ultimate capacity on its 2650 acres will be about 7000-8000 skiers per day. Scale that down to Malan's Basin's 180 acres and you get about 500 skiers per day. This is a ridiculous mismatch to the proposed gondola capacity of 960 passengers per hour each way. Even the Telluride gondola, which serves a resort (Mountain Village) with over 1000 housing units, has a capacity of only 480 passengers per hour each way. Any downtown merchants who think the Malan's Basin resort will be the greatest thing to come to Ogden since the railroad are delusional. At least half of those 500 skiers per day would be parking on the lot Peterson plans to build at the top of 36th Street. Most of the rest would (according to B. Geiger) be ski bum students "attending" WSU. Hardly any Malan's Basin skiers would have any reason to pass through downtown Ogden.
It doesn’t surprise me that the Standard Examiner has decline printing this. After all that in and of itself would break the tradition of what we have come to known the SE for. After all there is a reason why for many years the honest folks of Ogden have given that news paper a nick name, and true to that reputation of this nick name we come to be known as the “Substandard Exaggerator”.
It now seems a wonder that any commentaries from readers that question the gondola were published! Perhaps Mr. Wilson's report wasn't deemed important enough to overcome the 800 word limit? I'd think if they were a normal newspaper, concerned with publishing all information about such an important issue, they would have found a way. Perhaps as a 3-part series?
In regards to dan s. comments on snow making
I've talked to a water expert who doesn't want to be in the spot light(ex-forest service guy)that was very fimiliar with Malan Basin and the amount of water available up there.
His observation was that all the water that is available in Malan Basin we see every year coming down Waterfall Canyon, i.e. there are no spring or other sources of water to be had up there, everything is snow accumulation. He also mentioned that you wouldn't be successful if you tried to drill a water well up there.
If the development needs water up there for snow making (or for that matter for anything else), they're going to have to get it from Ogden City and pump it up. But that might also explain why the city is considering drilling a water well in Taylor Canyon. I hope we're not give up our water rights for this development. We might need them for drinking water in the future.
Regarding water---I attended a meeting in which it was said that Peterson was going to build two new tanks for the city---anybody else go to this one? Was there a source for water discussed?
Regarding the SE--I think an op-ed by Mr. Wilson concerning this issue was published in the online "Flowers and Darts" section.
What I think very important about this study was stated a few city council meetings ago by a developer, who urged the Council to look at the feasibility of the resort because it, after all, is the main reason to do all the other facets of the project---the housing development, and the mountain and urban gondolas. Neglecting this very important aspect is like putting the cart before the horse, I believe he said, and I agree.
Arcritic made a remark in another thread to the effect that the resort and mountain gondola are not dependent on the urban gondola, as many seem to think, and I agree with this. However, the reason many seem to think that they are dependent upon one another is that this is how the project so far has been presented to the public. At the same meeting where the tanks were discussed, someone asked if there were any order to the buildout, and the answer to that was that it all had to happen at once.
We have all heard many things about this project, not the least being that the development of it will take ten to twenty years. Although it has been said that it will all have to happen at once, the way we have been told the money will work does sort of determine an order. Here is my understanding of what needs to happen in order to make it work, from various meetings, FAQs, and other material:
Sale of golf course, WSU land, and public trail land to Peterson.
City takes money from sale and begins immediately to build urban gondola.
Peterson begins work on golf course, trails, and home construction. Estimated 2 year shut down of golf course. Do not know how long home buildout will take.
Construction of mountain gondola? (This would either go here or after the next item.)
Sale of homes in Peterson development in order to finance resort.
Urban and mountain gondolas used as "materiel moving gondolas,"in order to transport equipment and building materials to the Malan's Basin "roadless resort."
Construction of "roadless resort."
Either conversion of gondolas to people moving ones, or another scenario I have heard is that materiel moving gondolas and people moving gondolas are two different things, and materiel moving one will be built, torn out, and people moving one put in its place. Don't know how this part works.
Finis.
An imperfect understanding, I admit. Look at it as a draft. But the point is---if the mountain resort is not feasible, there is no reason at all to do the rest of the project. If the mountain resort does not get built because it is simply not feasible to build it, or if, once built, it has no feasibility as a viable resort, what happens is simply that Peterson will have been able to profit from a housing development built on prime real estate, and the city will have a gondola going from Wall Avenue to somewhere on the WSU campus.
That's one way to look at it, at least. Thank you to Don Wilson for taking the time to write this up, and it will be interesting to see responses to it.
Dian,
I heard the same thing but I don't recall a reason being given for building the tanks.
I suspect it's because the existing tanks sit on what the developer would view aa a prime residential building lots. And if it wasn't a lot would you want that tank as your back door neighbor or blocking your view?
If we were to sell the land, with the tanks on it what happens to the cities investment in the tanks?
We probably could use more tanks higher up the mountain because of water pressure issues in the city but we don't need to be getting rid of any that we have. We might find that we are building more or larger ones to compensate for the loss of the ones we already have. That would be another example of us subsidizing the developer.
As I recall the original plan that Chris Peterson presented was to build a "4-Season Resort" with the mountain gondola taking people up the mountain to it. There was to be no road to the resort. Godfrey wanted the urban gondola to connect to the mountain one because an urban gondola was unique, and people would come from all over the world to ride it to Malan's Basin and they would ski all day and then come down to Ogden for dinner and entertainment.
I heard that Chris Peterson did have a feasibility study done, but would not release the results.
Then he needed the golf course and WSU land to build his million dollar homes within his gated community to supposedly use as collateral for the resort and ski runs. He also hired a schemng, fast-talking attorney, who is now attempting to get a develoment agreement with the City without providing a feasibility study, a geologcal or an ecological study, no financial statements of Chris Peterson's solvency, no estimated costs for anything. And then he has the gall to tell the Council that the City has to do certain things to let Chris Peterson know that they support his project. Anyway that is what I got out of the meeting with Peterson's attorney. What a crock!! Is the Council so blind that they can't see through Ellison's fast double-talking? I hope that they realize that he never directly answered any question that committed Peterson to anything, or revealed what their plans for the whole project were.
Now we have proof that a 4-season resort is not feasible in Malan's Basin, and I agree with the previous posts: "Why have a gondola that goes nowhere? Doesn't serve as a transportation vehicle because it only makes three or four stops and ends up in a deadend on the foothills?"
Next Thursday night at the Union Station (6:00 PM) lets take an indepth look at Ogden's transportation problems at the Transportation Open House, and seriously consider some REAL modes of mass transportation. We'll let Godfrey ride his pipedream gondola to the sky, and get a real transportation system for the everyday, ordinary citizen of Ogden that will take them to businesses, to the hospital, to WSU and even out to all the medical facilities in South Ogden. Let it take them to where they need to go!
It's time to call an end to Godfrey's and Peterson's charade and quit spending taxpayer dollars on a pipe dream! Come on, Council, show us you have some guts! Tell them to put up or shut up!
Hey, Curmudgeon, do you suppose the reason that the SubStandard's subscription rate is so low in Ogden is because of their one-sided, unfair reporting policies and their mediocre editors, reporters and their cheap-shot cartoonist? You've noticed that the good reporters with ethics don't last very long at the SubStandard.
I guess I have to take back my nasty comments on the SE. Today's editorial pages contain Mr. Wilson's commentary along with one by Mayor Godfrey. The Mayor's has some unusual comments about a streetcar (ignoring the fact that we can't get Federal funding for one if we also have a Gondola) and still describing how people can fly into SLC and hop a train to Ogden. OK, the direct connection (sans cab ride to the train station) is implied, but it still is a rather unrealistic ignoring of facts.
It's probably time for us to face the obvious: Boss Godfrey is completely nuts.
On the SE's dueling op eds this morning:
Several possibilities, and I have no idea which is correct. (a) the SE always intended to publish the Wilson piece, but was waiting only Hizzonah's piece to balance it, or for Mr. Wilson to edit his full version down to acceptable size, in which case some apologies are due to the SE I think for statements made here (b) the SE did not intend to publish the Wilson piece, but changed its mind recently in which case it deserves some kudos for reversing its previous wrong decision (c) the delay in publishing the Wilson piece was the result of machine failures at the production plant. Mr. Greiling's column this morning in the Top of Utah section refers to mechanical breakdowns which caused a much smaller paper to be printed and the op ed section to be deleted on some days while the paper awaited parts so it could return to full-sized production. If that was the reason, again, some apologies due for statements here, some by me, though a more timely and prominent notice of the problems might have helped. Absent that, it seems fair for readers to have concluded that something's non-appearance in the SE was the result of deliberate editorial choice.
Now,with that said, we can get on to examining in detail Matthew "Smoke and Mirrors" Godfrey's lastest attempt at marketing half truths and disengenuous blather as public policy.
My personal favorite is Godfreys constant reference to a rinky-dink 200 acre ski hill as a "ski resort" that will attact any tourist traffic.
Godfrey doesn't actually ski or snowboard himself, does he.
If you folks want to take the Davis County Clipper, then we'll take the Standard Examiner. Where the Examiner misses the boat, the Clipper can't even find the ocean!
OH, GOOD HEAVENS, CURM! "MECHANICAL BREAKDOWNS"?? SINCE JULY?? The Se and this rotten 'administration' seem to be in bed together.
Jesse has had a letter in his posession meant FOR and TO the Council. Why hasn't it been disseminated to the public? Why haven't attendees at a work meeting heard this discussed?
WHO DO YOU TRUST? was a TV program from the 50's hosted by Johnny Carson. It was funny and charming.
THIS is not funny or charming. WHO can WE trust on the Council or anywhere in that sick administration??
Thank you, Mr. Wilson. I don't ski, but I could understand enough of your analysis to see that this is a precarious project at best. Can you imagine the liabilities by allowing skiers up there (if there's any skiable snow) and they plunge headlong down that drop? It could never be a family friendly place and revenues, is any, would be sparse. Bet a lot of liablity insurance claims would be paid though.
It is a pipedream by a man who has not proven he is a 'developer' of anything but fantasy. Godfrey, I'm beginning to think is NOT in any way intellectually astute. He, IMHO is stupid! Stupid people get excited at the carrot held out by snake oil salesmen promising glory, fame, riches and a LEGACY!
THAT, I think, is Godfrey's motivation. A piece of our prime land is Peterson's.
The salesman and the duped dope.
I hope all you skiers will 'take on' Godfrey, Peterson (if he shows up) and any other shills for this insane project on the 28th.
Why the *&&#%^%^& is a DOWNTOWN gondola even being talked about? Peterson wants to build those luxury houses on OUR land. I think that's all he'll do because he KNOWS he'll never spend what it would take to do any 'developing' at Malan's, much less a gondola. Criminey...doesn't this make your blood boil?
We're saddled with a stupid, CUNNING, corrupt mayor who lies to the people, and we are too docile to rise up in opposition.
I pray that WSU will just say 'NO'! Surely after reading Mr. Wilson's conclusions, if they haven't already, they will stop prolonging this madness through their 'deliberations.'
Enough already! WE knew long before this that Peterson and Godfrey were perpetrating a scam on the gullible. Well , WE aren't gullible.
I have stated many times that I don't think Peterson ever plans to develop Malan's or a gondola. Yet, your vainglorious mayor goes ahead using tax funds to promote an URBAN gondola sheme to NOWHERE.
The CC candidates told what was the 'biggest problem in Ogden'? GODFREY AND SYCOPHANTS!! Why would any astute business owner want to locate here after meeting this gang that can't shoot straight?
Look at the decaying infrastructure, the orange water for the folks at the top of the hill, the roads crumbling. The DEBT this mad little lord has incurred and that the overburdened taxpayers have to pay?
November 2007 cannot come fast enough...not just for the good riddance of Godfrey and crew, but for several groveling council persons. Shame on you, Jesse, for sitting on this Wilson information! You owe the public SERVICE and truth. We haven't been getting it.
Isn't Bill Cook supposed to be working FOR the Council? I'd like that letter dusted for Cook's fingerprints also.
Matthew "Smoke and Mirrors" Godfrey's Latest Exercise in Deceptive Prose
It is truly a remarkable performance, even for him. Writing classes in high schools should study his essay as an example of propoganda and how it is used by elected officials to mislead their constituents.
Where to begin... Ok. Let's start here. The mayor writes: "We are the closest urban center to a major ski resort. That fact alone, however, has not produced any significant tourism or jobs despite our efforts to market it. The downttown gondola mkes the connection obvious. It will make us the only urban center in the country connected to a resort."
Let's see now, the "major ski resort" we are close to is of course Snow Basin. But being close has, the Mayor says, not done Ogden much good, so we need the gondola to "make the connection obvious." What connection? Ogden's connection to Snow Basin? But the gondolas [two of them] he and Mr. Peterson want to build are not going to Snow Basin. This slimy bit of rhetoric is, sadly, typical of the the marketing campaign Hizzonah has been assisting for a year now: implying what he knows not to be so. The gondolas will not connect Ogden to Snow Basin. Yet again, still, he implies in this piece that somehow it will. "The downtown gondola makes the connection obvious." He just can't help himself.
Then we have this: a downtown gondola will allow all ski companies locating in Ogden to have their employees "walk across the street, board the gondola and be skiing,.. in minutes." " Really? How many minutes? Downtown to WSU terminal is projected as an 18 minute run on the gondola [not counting ticket buying time, boarding time, etc]. Then riders would debark at the WSU terminal, walk to the Peterson terminal, buy another ticket, board and ride a projected ten minutes to the ski venue in Malan's Basin. Adding it all up, it comes to about 35 minutes from walking out the office door downtown to stepping off a gondola in Malan's Basin. Thats about what it takes to drive to Snow Basin. So we are to assume all these world class ski companies employees would pass up Snow Basin to ski in a little vest pocket unknown [and as yet unbuilt] resort in Malan's Basin, which would take them just as long to reach. Uh huh. [According to Mr. Bob Geiger, and other Lift Ogden red hots, who recently suggested that Snow Basin was only a twenty minute drive from Ogden, it would take longer to ride the gondolas to Malan's Basin than it would to drive to Snow Basin. Imagine that.]
But let's move on. Next we have this oft-repeated bit of Lift Ogden Godfrey fantasy warmed over and offered up yet again: "tourists couldfly into Salt Lake City International, take the train to Ogden and hop on the gondola to access skiig and resort activity."
Well, since the Frontrunner is not going to the airport in Salt Lake City, and it's nearest station to the terminal at SL International is going to be miles away, that's quite a "hop" the Mayor is expecting all those tourists to make. So let's see what he's expecting them to do: fly to SLC airport, grab a cab, with their bags, to Frontrunner Station in downtown SLC. Haul bags to Frontrunner platform, buy ticket, wait for train. [Average wait during rush hour, 7.5 minutes. Average wait during off rush hour, 20 minutes.] Then haul their bags [and skis?] onto a commuter train for a 45 minute ride to Ogden. [Standing for part of the way if it's rush hour? We don't know.] Then haul themselves their bags [and skis?] off the train onto one gondola [if they are staying at Malan's Basin's alpine village rather than downtown], ride 18 minutes, then haul themselves and their bags [if staying at Malan's] over to another gondola terminal, buy a ticket, board [with bags if staying at Malans] and ride another ten minutes. Total estimated average transit time from walking out of SLC International terminal to arrival in Malan's Basin [presuming a six minute cab ride to Frontrunner]: 80 minutes. [One hour and twenty minutes. All to arrive at a mini-ski resort, not Snow Basin.]
Or, they could walk out of SLC international, get in one of the ski shuttles and be delivered, with their bags, to Snowbird in just under an hour, or to Alta or Solitude or Brighton in about an hour, or to any of the world-famous Park City resorts in the same time it will take them to ride all those cabs, trains and gondolas to Malan's Basin. And once their bags are at the shuttle pick up point, somebody else handles them all the way. Anyone want to lay money on which option all those deep pockets international ski tourists are likely to prefer? Or do you really want to bet Ogden's largest park and its benchlands and millions upon millions of dollars in public funds that if the Mayor sells his plan, you will bump into Paris Hilton and Jennifer Aniston and Brad Pitt on the platform waiting for Frontrunner to take them to Ogden?
Well, let it not be said that Mayor Godfrey is not capable of change. In fact, he has undergone, apparently, an astonishing epiphany! He's now a street car fan! Of course, not along the route the Wasatch Regional Council recommeneded as the one most likely to serve Ogden's transit needs, not along the route the WRC, after studying alternative routes, recommended as the one most likely to succeed. No. The Mayor has suddenly become a fan of running a streetcar down Washington Avenue and/or around downtown and/or to the as yet un-developed river project. Someplace. Anyplace! Except along the route the professionals who have studied it recommend as the best route for a streetcar line in Ogden. Because that route concides with the downtown gondola route Mr. Godfrey favors.
But he's not done with his deceptions yet. He then suggests that the proposed streetcar line endorsed by the Weber Country Forum between downtown, WSU and McKay Dee hospital is "designed almost entirely for Weber State students and faculty." Really? On what does he base this claim? He does not say. Are current riders on, say the 603 bus between McKay Dee Hospital and the transit hub downtown "almost entirely Weber State students and faculty?" [That bus approximates closely the proposed streetcar round from the downtown hub to McKay Dee hospital.] Does the mayor ride that bus often? I do. And the answer to the question of whether it's riders are "almost exclusively" WSU students and faculty is a loud resounding "No!"
And of couse the Mayor ignores the development potential of a street car line from downtown up to Harrison to WSU and McKay Dee. Unlike the proposed gondola, which will have a "stop" only one place between downtown and WSU [23rd and Harrison], the street car line will have stops all along the way, so people can get on, and off, to walk to appartments, condos and businesses all along the route. Street car lines are a proven technology for mid sized cities and have in places like Portland spured growth and development and rising propery values all along the lines.
It would be funny if so much were not at stake. After nearly a year of trying to sell his downtown gondola as a transit option for Ogden, Mr. Godfrey now announces that the downtown gondola is not really a mass transit system at all, Never was, he now says. Suddenly, his "new" trolley line down Washington Avenue is has "always been the plan." Uh huh.
The Mayor goes on to insist that the downtown gondola will be built "without risk to the taxpayer." And that Ogden would have to tax itself to build the streetcar line within twenty years, and it won't do that. [Question: then how will it raise the money to build the street car lines down Washington south, and around downtown, and to the undevelped River project, if Ogden will not tax itself to build transit?]
But will the downtown gondola involve no risk to taxpayers? What if it cannot be built for the $20 million dollars the Mayor used to say was its probable construction cost? [The twenty million presumably to be raised by selling the city's largest park to Mr. Peterson.] Other estimates by credible people, like UDOT, are that it would take $45 million to build the downtown gondola. Do we know what Mr. Peterson will pay for the parklands if the city sells them? [If they mayor knows, he's not saying.] Do we know that that amount will be sufficient to build the gondola? [No.] Will the city be responsible for the cost of operating and maintaing the downtown gondola system? [Apparently yes.] Will the system generate enough revenue from riders to cover its operating costs? [Absolutely not, says the Wasatch Regional Council who studied the matter.] Since the downtown gondola is not a transit system, will UTA subsidize its operation as it does with bus and trolly transist systems? [No, says UTA. Loudly.]
Then the Mayor adds the usual Lift Ogden talking points. That the gondolas will "create more than 1000 jobs." Really? He has been asked, repeatedly, to explain the basis for that claim. Where and how the jobs will be created and what kind of jobs will they be if they are created at all? He has refused to answer. [I do note the Mayor has scaled back his claims. Just months ago, the gondolas were going to create 1200 jobs. Now it's just "more than a 1000." With, of course, no explanation of how that figure was arrived at. But hey, that's asking questions, and as the Mayor and his Lift Ogden Amen Chorus have told us over and over again, the only people who ask questions are "naysayers."]
And the mayor repeats the claim that Mr. Peterson wants to invest half a billion dollars in Ogden. I think that's wonderful. If Mr. Peterson has half a billion lying around the mansion and wants to use it to build a gondola from the top of 36 Street to a resort he wants to develop in Malan's Basin, I say he should go ahead an do it. But of course, that is not what he wants. He wants Ogden to turn over its largest park and its undeveloped benchlands to him for a real estate development so he can profit enough to get the money private and commercial lenders apparently will not loan him for his highly speculative and, it appears now, highly unlikely to succeed Malan's Basin pipe dream. Not quite the way the Mayor described it, is it.... Imagine that.
And of course as already has been noted, nothing in the Mayor's piece addresses in any way the point of Mr. Wilson's piece which is that a Malan's Basin ski development is not likely to be economically feasible at all.
If the Mayor wants to gamble, enjoy the thrill of venturing substantial money against long odds, he should hop over to Wendover and do it. With his own resources, not the public's. For if the Malan's Resort is not a viable project, then the downtown gondola will have no point at all, and the city will have squandered its largest park and irreplaceable benchlands for nothing.
Poor Matthew. I really think he cannot help himself. Public deception and disengenuousness is what he does. It just comes natural to him.
Or maybe he's only hoping to meet Paris Hilton on the Frontrunner some day.
The Standard finally did something right.
We can compare Don Wilson's logical presentation of facts with Mayor Godfrey's mindboggling ramblings about his dreams.
I'm putting this presentation in a file to refer to from now on to rebut false information presented about Malan's Basin.
Now Sharon. I know Matthew Godfrey very well, and I can assure you that he has a very good brain...
which he stores in a jar in Monica's kitchen pantry.
lucy loo..
I think that you have that wrong, Mayor godfrey has a brain that went to the university with the highest integrity, I saw it in the jar on the profesor's desk!!
What I found most interesting and disturbing about the mayor's piece in the paper was his opening comment.
That point he makes being, that everyone he talks to is in favor of the urban gondola project or becomes in favor of the project once they learn the facts.
Talk about rose colored glasses, it doesn't matter who or where I run into people (even complete strangers), there is a common sense that this is about the stupidest idea that they've ever heard of and the more they learn about the project the more they are convinced of that.
Very few people feel that if the developer wants to try and make a go of it on top of Malan Basin, on his own dime, that he shouldn’t have that opportunity. But almost everyone thinks that for the city to build an urban gondola or to give up its open space to assist this developer, it would be a crime. That’s the message I hear.
The mayor, I think, is as they say, drinking his own bath water. I think the mayor runs in a same circle that from what I can tell is getting smaller.
Wise up mayor (and grow up), quit dividing this community. Your lack of attention to the real issues such as the degradation of our inner city is having a far more negative effect on the community (and city's financial health and the outside perception of our city) then will be gained by your grandiose high risk business development schemes.
Here I am, Joe Six-Pack with the wife and two kids, thinking of going skiing for the day.
Now I’ve got two choices, drive up to Snow Basin (30 minute drive) to world class skiing mountain and resort or take two gondolas (30 minute ride at $15 cost / person) to a Nordic Valley sized ski hill that’s for expert skiers only.
Which place will I go… Dah!
So the SE ran a 3 part story about "fact-finding"and basically shilled for the gondola. Now Don Wilson's letter of real facts and Godfrey's well worn sales pitch which rebuts none of the damning facts of Wilson's. By any "standard" of equal time for issues of public concern, I would say the StandardE owes SGO or any of the well spoken opponents here a couple of more shots at this mess.
Would any of Mr. Wilson's words have anything to do with "competition" and the fact that Snow Basin might loose some of its captive audience should CP pull this thing off? Should we believe EVERYTHING some opponent to the gondola has to say, just because we don't want the gondola either?
Curmudgeon
Thanks Pal. You took the words right out of my mind and off my key board! Only you did it better!!
Other Thoughts,
I think the answer is no although I obviously can't speak for Mr. Wilson. I doubt that he has a dog in the fight one way or the other. If you look at his resume I think you will see he retired from Snow Basin quite a while before any of this current Gondola nonsense came up.
I read his analysis as one that came from an engineer who knows what he is talking about from personal experience in the industry and with this specific piece of mountain, and as a tax paying citizen that is concerned with the squandering of public money and assets. He doesn't appear to have a financial interest in Snow Basin as it is completely owned by Holding.
I find it interesting that this blog has once again scooped the Standard.
Way to go blogmiester, you contin to show why the blogs, CNN and the rest of the electronic world is sending the newspapers to their graves.
As Curmudgeon and I have pointed out numerous times, this gondola experience simply does not compete with ground transportation.
The mayor mentions being able to zip up the mountain for skiing, photo shoots, and product testing. This would of course be possible, but there is a definite downside to it.
First, as I have mentioned before on this blog, going skiing is not something you just walk out of your office and go do. These things require a bit of prep, which would in itself probably take up the normal lunch hour even before embarkation.
Regarding product testing and photo shoots, these things also require equipment. These gondola cars are small. Depending on what you're doing, it would probably be possible to toss various types of equipment or product onto a car as it inches by, accompanied by a couple of people whose responsibility it is to unload it as it inches along at the top. Or they could have it in packs. Then, of course, these people would have to walk all this stuff in to wherever the location for shooting or testing might be. It is possible. There are also easier ways to do it.
It is also customary to have various supplies for people--some being necessary for the shoot itself or the tests themselves, and some for the well-being of the people working on them, like food and water. Many times, these projects require almost a caravan.
Compare instead these activities performed with the use of a vehicle. Extra clothing and equipment can be kept in it. Even if equipment has to be walked in, normally one can get pretty close to most things in a vehicle. You can also charge batteries from it, which is a plus. You can keep water, which is heavy to pack in, in it. It seems that it would take just as long to drive to SnowBasin as it would to have the gondola experience, but there would be one very important difference.
In the summer one could stay cool and in the winter one would stay warm in a vehicle. Not the case with the gondola. If a group of people is going up the mountain to do some type of work, like photo shoots and product testing, whomever is organizing this has to provide for their equipment and working conditions, and in the winter, they have to have a place where they can get warm. Cars and trucks serve this purpose admirably. These gondolas would not.
And lately, they seem to need a place to keep certain kinds of electronic equipment warm, too, or it won't work once you're up there.
No place to put things once you're there. No place to get either warm or cool depending on the time of the year.
Not a good or practical working environment, in my opinion. Not your typical luxury experience, either.
Assume for one deluded moment that skiiers would actually take the downtown/mountain gondola to Peterson's village in order to stay there.
Would they, tired at the end of a day of skiing, eat dinner up there, or would they bundle themselves up for the two-gondola trip to eat dinner and spend their money in downtown Ogden? Don't forget, they would then have to make it back to the downtown gondola station in order to return to their rooms. Doesn't sound like Ogden would benefit at all under any conditions. We would, however, get the benefit of dealing with the "packaged waste" from the Alpine village. Guess those are some of the 1200 jobs. Sounds wonderful, doesn't it?
So all the people in Ogden, all their children, and all the future generations should give up this magnificient open space and park land so that some small inconsequentual 5 man ski company can take a gondola from their office to take some pictures on a few occasions and test some equipment on even fewer occasions, and so some ski bum college kids can play hooky and ride up the mountain for some fun at a small half baked ski area.
Some Mayor we have here in Ogden. Boy it sure is reassuring that he is looking out for all the citizens isn't it?
Ogdenlover said:
We would, however, get the benefit of dealing with the "packaged waste" from the Alpine village.
Along those lines, I read in the SE a couple of weeks ago a novel way of dealing with part of the outflow from a sewage treatment plant.
Snow-making.
The article was on the front page of the business section, I believe, accompanied by a picture of some Native Americans. They were protesting this idea, because the idea of making snow out of treated sewage and putting it all over one of their sacred places seemed sacriligious to them.
Not so to the developer.
Do you think the same sort of plan is in the works here? You know, to deal with the lack of water up there and all.
dian,
that effluent-snow plan is for Arizona SnowBowl near Flagstaff. They have very inconsistent winters there and this is the plan to put down a base. Not the kind of snow I would want to ride on. Even Hardpack man-made tends to throw spray when you cut it hard enough or when it gets slushy it can be pretty darn messy. Imagine getting into your car with pants soaked in sewage effluent on a warm spring day. The really unfortunate thing is that the slope that needs the most attention is the beginner area on Hart Prairie. This is an area where kids and families play and throw snow balls and build snowmen. They plan to post it that you are at your own risk but this plan has disaster written all over it.
I seriously doubt that many photoshoots will be held within a 180 acre overcrowded basin. Maybe they would use the access to hike out of bounds and shoot there but, again, these scenarios are so overrated. There are places all over Utah to take photo shoots just a short hike from many mountain roads. In fact, last season , one of the Descente "athletes" built a jump just off the road to Snow Basin for some kind of photo shoot. It looked like a totally lame location for both a shoot and a jump. It was not a road gapper. So in this instance, Descente was too cheap to even buy their guy a ticket for Snowbasin's 2700 acres to get a good shoot. Seems they would also cheap out even if they had access to Malan's via gondola. So laughable that the mayor is still touting these bottom echelon seven ski companies who moved here. Such bush league behavior. It's getting damn embarrassing.
Tod,
That is terrible. "They plan to post it that you are at your own risk" indeed. The fact that they plan to post that tells you right there that they shouldn't be doing it.
So much for keeping our pristine wilderness areas pristine.
I wonder what their health department says about this.
Am definitely on the side of the Native Americans on this one.
Goode skis may test some product but the rest of these companies are quite removed from research and development or simply do not make skis. Nidecker, who the mayor took time to welcome with a full blown press conference is nothing more than a regional sales team who chose to locate their office here. There are more employees and heftier payroll at most any restaurant, auto repair shop or tortilleria. Funny that not a single one of these companies, officially or not, have shown up at the LO confabs to blow their horn. They are probably embarrassed to link themselves with the little dude and his blowharding knowing full well they constitute minimal impact.
Other Thoughts...
I notice you did not challenge any of Mr. Wilson's conclusions, or the facts on which he based them. All you wanted to do was raise questions about his motives. If his argument is faulty and his conclusions wrong, you should be able to demonstrate that the information on which he based them is erroneous, or that the conclusions drawn from that information are not valid, and then explain why they are not valid. You did neither.
Which in itself is telling, I think.
I forgot Descente has blown their horn plenty...have we ever seen what their local financial impact amounts to. I'm sure it is a fraction of their overall corporate biz. At least the Geigs live here. Wonder if their paychecks stay local.
Good point Curm, As usual the LO sympathetic are more pathetic and simple when they attempt to challenge facts. They continue to forward the naysayer conspiracy.
Ogden Lover,
Good point, This whole apres ski thing is also more nonsense. When I finish a day on the hill I cannot wait to get out of my gear and into my PJ's. I'm not going out anywhere if it was a good day. I'll be exhausted. Even the out of towners will scatter far and wide come evening. Many will simply order pizza to their hotel room.
Did anyone notice the headline on the mayor's piece. "Gondola connects Ogden to resort" Where the headline on Mr Wilson's "Malan could be a trail into debt"
The mayor's headline is in the affirmative and states as though this idea is a done deal or even operational.
The headline over Mr Wilson's suggests the POSSIBILITY that it may be unprofitable.
Again the SE slants things ever so slyly in favor and lends less weight to the facts and more to pipe dreams.
The other night I remember hearing Bob Geiger tell the council very emphatically that there would be one more ski company in town the very next day. He used very strong finger pointing to bring home the point.
So what new ski company came to Ogden this last week? Was this just more Gondolista bull crap?
Is any one really aware that all of these much vaunted ski companies that have come to Ogden total less than 15 employeed combined? Several of them came here before any of this current Gondola talk was even around, contrary to the mayor's assertions in his latest propoganda piece that they came specifically because of the gondola.
Can any of you economic types out there give us the low down on just exactly how much this very small handfull of gondola inspired ski jobs really contribute to Ogden's economy? My guess is that all of them together would be less than the average fast food place.
Open Question to the Mayor,
What kind of verbal deferred compensation agreement do you have with the developer to compensate you or your family if you pull this hair brained deal off? I mean, high risk should equal high return and everyone knows your political career is over, not to mention how welcome you’ll all feel in this community.
Are you going to have a new residential address high on the hill with several surrounding building lots that you happen to have acquired and have for sale; be an exclusive building developer of new housing lots on what was once our open space; get a lifetime supply of winter leisure suits from Descente or is it something else?
Just curious, just want to know how high to price my willingness to suppress my use of logic, my willingness to disregard the feelings of other people while I destroy their quality of life, my willingness to ignore what everyone is telling me that differs from what I’m doing and above all to compromise my integrity.
I suspect that you won’t answer this question and we’ll all just have to wait until you’re out of office to find out.
Recent Anon,
Good questions, for which answers we shall wait breathlessly. Just like all the questions that have been asked.
Just came back from the BYU game...and met a former detective of the Ogden PD who no longer lives here.
He had plenty to say about Greiner. None of it good or flattering. This former detective told of Greiner's arrogance and vengeful actions. Said Greiner was always demeaning to his officers. Hey, we aren't even detectives and we figured this out all by ourselves. He alluded (heck, he didn't allude, he said outright) that Griener became Chief because of his in-laws' money. Is Godfrey occupying that big chair because of HIS in-laws'?
Curm, you have to renew your subscription to PEOPLE or the ENQUIRER cuz Jennifer Anniston and Brad Pitt will not be standing on the platform together. I mean, like, you are, like waaay so not cool!
Enjoyed your dissection of Godfrey's tiresome propaganda piece. You said it delightfully. Thanx! Whoever said it, I agree that the SE owes SGO and anyone else with facts lots more print space.
It IS embarrassing to say, 'I'm from Ogden" and be asked with a smirk about the 'gondola' and 'what's with your mayor? Is he for real???'
I feel sorry for the AZ Native Americans. We don't even have a fake snow machine and we're already covered in poop.
Sharon:
You wrote: "Curm, you have to renew your subscription to PEOPLE or the ENQUIRER cuz Jennifer Anniston and Brad Pitt will not be standing on the platform together. I mean, like, you are, like waaay so not cool!"
I gather from your post that the two were once an item but are no more? News to me. Didn't know they'd been together. Didn't know they'd split. But surely the lure of riding a commuter train to Ogden so they can ride two gondolas that won't go to Snow Basin will be more than enough to overcome any residual awkwardness. I just hope they can find a seat what with all the tourists who will be abandoning Snowbird, Alta, Brighton, Solitude and Snow Basin to ride cabs, commuter rail and two gondolas to Malan's basin.
Okay, you are, like, waaay cool. You nailed it...of course this once married couple will overcome any 'residual awkwardness' to sit together on the gondola to nowhere.
Hey...perhaps we could write a play???? "A gondola named nowhwere".
Tod bad Marlon Brando isn't still around..but then he became so ENORMOUS, he probably couldn't have fit in one...but he could just stand at the intermodal hub and lustily yell...."Maaaaaat! Hey, Maaaat!"
Dian goes to great lengths to show that the "gondola experience" would not be that comfortable for a photo shoot or product test. But how does she know, unless she's tried it? Gondolas can easily haul construction material, skiers, people, you name it, from the bottom to the top, using the various gondola cars designed for whatever is needed to transport.
Dian should do the Snow Basin gondola, look carefully at the terain it glides over, imagine herself trying to "drive on up there in a vehicle," before she caps the gondola.
She's wrong on this surmise and the Mayor's correct.
To "other thoughts",
I think she's was only referring to the view she'd be having looking into the living rooms of the peoples houses on 23th St during the winter when the leaves are off the trees
Dear Other Thoughts,
While Snowbasin has some open box-like cars for their gondola that is not the only way they get materials up and down. They also have a service road that snakes up the mountain from their base to Needles Lodge. I hiked the mountain this summer on that side, walked along part of the road near the Lodge, and have seen workers in trucks on it.
Other thoughts,
You and the Mayor are entitled to your opinion, but I think most of us would catch a ride with Dian to Snowbasin, then take the lift from there. We could store our extra equipment in the van.
The idea that a serious reason for selling off the city's largest park and investing millions upon millions in public funds in a downtown gondola is so that a handfull of ski and outdoor companies could occasionally do a photo shoot without using a van for transport is laughable.
Aw c'mon, Curm....photo shoots without vans are all the rage now.
Even more fun, and in the country's very first area to do so would be in Ozboy's 'venice canal' gondola up 23rd St.
Now that would be something to bring in more than Hollywood movie producers opening a school on WA Blvd. We would have super models, designers, world class photographers and fashion magazine editors camping right here in downtown Ogden!
Why we'd be even more famous with phoo shoots being conducted from these water gondolas than we'll ever be with the country's first ever mall 'anchored' by a gym and a bowling alley.
Fame, Fortune, Bankruptcy!
phoo shoots or photo shoots...novel either way.
In snow sports advertising there are two kinds of photo shoots, action and fashion. A fashion photo shoot can be done anywhere there is some snow on the ground and a dramatic backdrop. In fact it can be done anywhere including a studio and add in the mountain backdrop in Photoshop. An action photoshoot, which usually requires an athlete busting some big air off of a cliff or sculpted jump, requires untouched QUALITY snow. Those action shots are usually done in the backcountry where there is ample untouched snow and no gawkers or barneys getting in the way. A close friend is one of the leading photographers for Burton Snowboards and they would never be doing a shoot in such a spot as Malan's Basin unless it was closed for the day and they had fresh powder. A group could always hike out of bounds to Taylor Canyon but the best days there are the most dangerous and hiking south into strong's basin will only enhance the southern exposure limiting snow quality. These back country photo shoots are done more often in higher elevation locations where the snow quality holds longer. They reach these locales by snowmobile and rarely by lift. The gondola is certainly capable of carrying photographers and their day equipment, this is hardly a reason to sell off our parkland. Why doesn't the city buy a Van and a SnowMobile rig if they want to aid these ski companies in their photoshoots. An investment of $50,000 for this equipment would save us from selling our parks. Such stupid logic from the LO folks again. They keep grasping for the same ill-logic.
As for product testing...for clothing, you hardly need any outdoor location, any walk-in freezer would do. For skis I imagine you could find no better test than the Olympic downhill at Snowbasin, for snowboards any good powder day will do. Most R&D is done in the factory using test equipment measuring flex and deflection, durability in simulated harsh conditions, etc. The majority of on snow testing is done by the team athletes using their proform equipment while they travel the world to events and ...photoshoots... away from ogden.
Any more "LO gee eye see".
These snowsport companies are little more than a small group of logo designers and a drawer full of clothing and hardware manufacturing contracts fulfilled in China. Only the conceptual design is done here..the technical design is done where else but...China. Geiger has been shoving the next big company relocation announcement in our face for months now with no result. I have news for Salomon or whoever plans to move here. Do it, you could not find a better place to live and do business. Do like Descente, move here for the current quality of life. If you don't like it, go elsewhere. It'll be your loss. We love it here the way it is, parklands and all.
All this drivel from the Gondolistas is just that. It is one more variation of the big lie technique. For an example of this method of propoganda one only has to look at the Little Lord's Op-Ed piece from the other day.
I do believe the little feller and the LO leaders studied at the Joseph Goebbels school of public information.
Photo shoot convenience in exchange for public lands indeed. Next thing you know they will be advocating tattooed minorities in exchange for designer lamp shades.
Did Rossignol finalize their BDO deal for a distribution site?
I wonder if it will provide many new jobs, or just a shuffling of positions currently held by people working at their Freeport Center location.
Rossignol nearing a deal on Ogden distribution site
Sorry to have missed the excitement here over the weekend. I was out of town, where I had the opportunity of trying to explain the whole Peterson/gondola concept to a couple of people who hadn't been bombarded by Godfrey/LO propaganda for the last year. I recommend this exercise as a way of keeping one's sanity, though it can be rather embarassing when the listener continually interrupts and asks whether everyone in Ogden is nuts.
Thanks, Curmudgeon, for the detailed analysis of Godfrey's latest. I'll add a further response to his third-to-last paragraph. He says "this [WSU] corridor wasn’t designed to do that [serve the community's transit needs]. The Washington Boulevard corridor will serve as the backbone for our transit system, and that has always been the plan."
The only way these statements could be true would be if the mayor is referring to his own personal "design," and to a private "plan" that he keeps in his own head.
The fact is that the Wasatch Front Regional Council Long-Range Plan has included the Washington Blvd. corridor only since the last revision, approved in December, 2003. The WSU corridor has been in the plan for at least the last three revisions, that is, since sometime in the 90's. The travel demand and transit need (for traditional transit use, not tourism) in the WSU corridor is significantly greater than in the Washington Blvd. corridor, and that's why WFRC has taken the next step and conducted a detailed feasibility study for the WSU corridor. I'm unaware of any evidence that anyone at WFRC, UTA, or Ogden City has ever considered the Washington Blvd. corridor to be a higher priority or "backbone" in any sense--until now.
It should also be noted that in the WFRC Long-Range Plan, the planned transit mode for both these corridors is bus rapid-transit (BRT), not a streetcar. The more recent feasibility study for the WSU corridor concludes that a streetcar would be preferable and could meet the cost-effectiveness criteria to qualify for federal funding, despite its higher cost. Whether the Washington Blvd. corridor would similarly qualify for a streetcar at this time is rather doubtful. My personal hope is that after a streetcar is constructed in the WSU corridor, its ridership will be higher than predicted and this can pave the way for a streetcar in the Washington Blvd. corridor at some later date. But UTA ain't gonna build us a streetcar on Washington without a feasibility study, and at this time, the outcome of such a study would probably be that a streetcar isn't cost effective for that corridor.
The mayor also says there will be a "downtown loop" streetcar. No such loop is in the WFRC Long Range Plan, so it seems a bit premature to promise that it will be implemented. Would this downtown loop be part of the UTA system? If so, why isn't it already in the long-range plan? Or would it be funded by the city or in some other way? The mayor doesn't say.
He also says we would have to tax ourselves in order to build a streetcar system in the next 20 years. The truth is that we're already taxing ourselves for transit, and this tax will continue whether or not we build a streetcar system. As far as new taxes are concerned, UTA is already on record stating that a streetcar system in the WSU corridor could be built in as little as seven years with an additional tax, or in 10-15 years without.
snojunki,
Funny thing, I've never heard Peterson or Godfrey or LO say that the target audience for Malan's Basin is more advanced skiers and snowboarders, as you imply. And I think I know why: The target audience for the foothill gated residential development is middle-aged empty nesters, most of whom learned to ski when Wilson was working at Snowbasin. Also, the advanced skiers and snowboarders will want more than 800 feet of vertical drop along the fall line.
The fact is, a Malan's Basin ski resort would be mediocre, at best, for skiers and snowboarders of any ability. If it makes you salivate, then either you don't understand what's actually planned or you're a backcountry adventurer who is merely hoping to use the gondola to access extreme slopes that would be outside the resort (and partly outside Peterson's property). Perhaps you'd care to draw for me, on a topo map, the runs that you're salivating over?
Besides, Wilson doesn't claim that nobody would want to ski/snowboard at Malan's Basin. His main point is that the resort would be too small to be profitable. Would you pay half a million for a condo in Malan's Basin? Would you pay $750 for a season pass? How many others will pay these prices to ski at a 180-acre ski area with a maximum capacity of 500 skiers per day?
Snowjunki,
I, too, am an expert snowrider with experience in highly challenging terrain. There is nothing on the west side that scares me, except to use caution in obvious avalanche paths. That is only a small part of the issues related to Malan's feasibility. Just because you or I could have a great time in this terrain doesn't make it financilly feasible and it doesn't justify linking it to a plan to sell our valuable parklands(golf course and more)to finance a gondola system across the city to link this resort to a train that doesn't link directly to the airport. Do you catch the extent of these abstractions??? Why is it that those in support just see some really narrow benefit and fail to grasp the wider implications of impact to our city. Besides there is nothing keeping you form enjoying the west side of the mountain anytime from Snowbasin. Bring your avalanche safety gear. I was in favor of a "wilderness" style outdoor retreat development there as simply a moderate stance in this whole thing but clearly Peterson and the mayor are not hearing this or any other concerns of the locals. Anyway the capacity of a gondola system is overkill for a 200 acre ski area without Peterson's overblown plans.
Engineering is the science of matching and scaling several independent systems to reach an operational efficiency from input to output that leaves little waste and makes use of and integrates all of the parts to a working whole. None of this proposal meets this criteria. It is a hodgepodge of dreams thrown together for mass consumption under the billing of 500 million for our community. It's a load of crap.
Snow Junkie
You obviously do not know how counter productive your little analysis is to the aspirations of the Gondola gang.
I don't know what percentage of the public actually go down mountains on boards of one sort or the other, but I would guess it is less than 5%. Of my extended Ogden family of a couple of hundred I think there might be less than a dozen that do this.
Now if you look at the skiing population I would also guess that the hot doggers and maniacs amongst you is also a very low percentage. I would also venture to guess that the vast majority of said maniacs are also the brokest financially in that group.
So what you seem to be saying is that all of Ogden's citizens should give up their magnificant open space and park lands to accomodate a very small number of bust out, but adventuresome, ski bums?
And what about the skiing family members of said ski maniacs that are not mentally deranged enough to be skiing over cliffs and such? Do they split off for the day or week and go to Snow Basin or Deer Valley while you and your kamikazee pals defy death in Malan's basin?
Any way you cut it, the core of this insanity dictates that the overwhelming majority of non skiers and non dare devils in Ogden pay an enormous price for your thrills.
So if you want expensive and dangerous toys, pay for them yourselfs you cheap leeches.
Incidently, I do hope that your analysis is true and that it is brought to the attention of the City Council members that are faced with this obscene proposal.
Grandpa's Knees,
I'm with ya gramps, I am one of those bums but damn if I'll sacrifice our openspace for the thrills of this ragtag group. That is a very good point you make and hurray for your forceful tone.
SnoJunki
SHUT THE F___ UP!
Matt
snojunki ( aka Dustin Chapassman). Yes the world of winter sports are a changing. But most individuals like you just go the the established (old time) resorts and then go out of bounds so the state can provide a 10k to 15K rescue of your stupid ass.
As for our Lord High Mayor, Emperor of Ogden and Violater of Constitutional Rights aka "Kingfish" has completely gone over the edge. He wants so badly for Ogden to be someplace other than Ogden, I suggest we get him committed to Provo.
We all sit at our keyboards bitching about his corrupt ways. The time has come for action. Even thouigh Utah does not have a re-call law there must be some way short of Lee Harvey Oswald that we can get him removed from office!
Elevate Ogden - Dump Godfrey GG2G.
Bob Geiger is a genius! He's an expert skier, too! And he's a whiz with fractions! The problem with the Malan's Basin resort is that Little Matty Godfrey and his con man (pal-love) Frump Peterson couldn't find enough magical dwarves to guard the spiffy castle while they were cavorting about Europe, hand in hand, dreaming of the riches they will bring to sad OTown once the golden gondola is under way!
To M Godfrey (signed Matt), you say it all with your foul mouth! We aren't dealing with intelligent human beings, but rather immature imbecilic sub-humanoids! FYI, Matt, Webster's definition of imbecil: n. 2. a foolish or stupid person.
Thinking about water in Malan's Basin...
Average annual precipitation in Ogden City is 17 inches. The Malan's Basin watershed must get somewhat more, over an area of 500 acres or so, so let's say there's a total of 1000 acre-feet of precipitation per year. If you could capture even 10% of that and store it in reservoirs, it should provide plenty of water for the mountain village as well as snow making to cover whatever ski runs would be cut on the northwest-facing slope. And when the artificial snow melts in the spring, much of the runoff can again be captured and stored.
The storage might be a problem. Would Peterson build a dam in Malan's Basin above his resort? Or would he use expandable storage "bags" like the city does in its foothill reservoirs? Either way there could be a safety risk: an accident would send a flood down the narrow V-shaped valley, right into the lovely mountain village. Like most engineering problems, I suspect that this one can be solved--but at what cost? Can Peterson afford to do it right? Who knows?
Remember: Peterson promised on 6 September 2005 to show us plans for his resort within 60 days, but now he's refusing to provide any plans (or feasibility studies) until after the City Council approves the creation of a no-zoning zone for his benefit.
I have a challenge for the REAL Matt Godfrey and Chris Peterson: Don Wilson has given very real reasons/existing conditions that show how impractical, ill-conceived, and not feasible the resort in Malan's Basin is; show why or how these reasons/existing conditions can be overcome and dealt with. All you have given us is HYPE! I honestly don't think that you can make it a feasible plan.
So why destroy the City with huge pillars to support a gondola that goes only to WSU? It doesn't make sense financially to tear up sewer and water lines and the roads in order to construct the gondola. I know you have overlooked that expense, but how can you dig down yards to solidly anchor those huge poles for the gondola without moving existing sewer and water lines?
Just once in your life, Matt and Chris, be realistic. There's no way you're going to get your hands on the golf course land because so much of your plan is impractical and would financially bankrupt Ogden.
If this isn't the case, PROVE that it isn't!! I challenge you!!
GUYS?????
snojunki,
I won't defend the tone of some of the folks here who have responded to you, but you're not being particularly mature either.
Ogden needs better access to the mountain? Then why did Sunset Magazine already rate Ogden best in the West for access to the outdoors? In what way would a 36-minute gondola ride to a 180-acre ski area provide better access than a 25-minute drive to Snowbasin, or a short walk or drive or bus ride to the nearest trailhead?
You don't tell us how much time you spent hiking on that sunny August day, or what the temperature was at the time. At mid-afternoon in August I'd expect to see very few trail users, but I'll bet there were dozens in the early morning while it was still cool. I've heard that the Smart Growth volunteers at the 29th Street trailhead gave away 50 to 75 bottles of cold water each Saturday morning they were there in July and August. It's simply a fact that thousands of people use those trails each month. They come from all over Ogden and from up and down the Wasatch Front and even from out of state.
But I'm letting you change the subject. Let's go back to your original point: that the Malan's Basin ski area will target expert skiers and snowboarders, rather than typical 60-somethings who can afford a half-million-dollar condo or a million-dollar patio home along the golf course. Are you sticking to this point or not? Seems to me you're stuck: Either way, the Peterson pyramid scheme crumbles when you look at the details.
SnoJunki seems to be the demographic that the Mayor and Mr. Peterson are pandering to. Young dumb and inexperienced. He takes Mr. Wilson's study to task because it has been a number of years since Mr. W worked at Snow Basin and evidently SJ believes that the physics and geography which was the subject of the study are now out of date like the ski equipment.
Had our young and stupid friend been in the class room instead of the ski slope he might know that the laws of physics are the same now as then, and that the geography of Malan's basin hasn't changed in many thousands of years. Do we really want to spend a lot of money to attract more people of this limited mental capacity to Weber State?
If the Gondola and Malan Basin ski resort were not such incredibly stupid ideas they would not be attacked on this blog. If the Mayor and his sycophants were not so dishonest with the people they would not be ridiculed here either.
Junki,
It's embarrassing to read the foul-mouthed assinine remarks you and your comrades spew here.
Give us facts, please. So far, all we've heard is dreeeeeams, fantasy, lies, and 'promises'...unfulfilled.
Where are the answers to intelligent questions? Brett just challenged your pals, Matt and Chris.
Print out some of these questions and ask your king to get off his throne long enough to answer them!
No one would take you to task if you could stop haranguing us with stupidity and offer insights and facts.
If you are one of the recent candidates for the City Council and PC...Heaven help us.
Has not Mrs. Chris Godfery (not since Brokeback Mountain has an illicit love affair been so NOT seceret) gone belly up (bankrupt) on all of his "development scams"?
Why are the "little king" and CP so in love with each other? Could it be that little Mattie has finally found a real man to make up for his Small Man Syndrom (Napoleon Complex). These to "wusses" deserve each other.
GG2G: Godfreys' Got 2 Go.
The good citizens of Ogden need to start right now to change the form of City Government back to Council/ City Manager. The office of the Mayor needs to go back to being a ceremonial position. Never again should one individual ever have the amount of power "Kingfish" has used to destroy this city.
I predict that some time shortly (excuse the pun)after January 1, 2008 the good citizens of Ogden will discover that we have a City Government that has gone bankrupt.
Just remember that Dogfrey keeps stealing from Peter to pay Paul who has to steal from RDA to build "Wreck Centers" with money stolen from BDO that caused the FBI to launch an investigation into our "Lord High Mayors'" wheelin and dealin? This is truly a task (bankrupcy) that Chris Peterson can educate our "Little Emperor" about.
Dogfrey is as corrupt as he can be and not get caught, YET!
"Malan will be an exclusive resort that attracts high-end snow riders, seeking a smaller resort with high-end amenities. What is wrong with people looking to spend big bucks on high-end vacations experiences coming to Weber County." - Snojunki
Just the kind of place those additional 1000 college students will be able to afford and will rush to between classes! The LO crowd needs to get their fairy tales straight.
Same old Dustin, proving once again the old saying about old dogs and new tricks.
OgdenLover:
Nice catch! I missed that. Thanks.
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