While a decision to build an Ogden gondola system remains up in the air, a proposal for an aerial tramway in Cortez, Colo., has failed to get off the ground.A Feasibility Study? "Hogwash," sez Boss Godfrey! "We don't need no stinkin' feasibility study! All we gotta do is BELIEVE!!!":
For decades Cortez community leaders kicked around the idea of building a tram system that would take visitors from town to Mesa Verde National Park, which has more than 4,000 known archeological sites, including 600 cliff dwellings.
However, in 2004, the plan was dropped when a feasibility study by Denver-based BBC Research and Consultants showed the $13.5 million tramway would be too expensive to build and maintain.
However, Mayor Matthew Godfrey believes a gondola — he says may cost at least $20 million and would run from downtown to Malan’s Basin — is just what Ogden needs to distinguish itself as a top destination for tourism and business.We know our gentle readers are already champing at the bit to sink their teeth into today's article, so we'll post the relevant link now, without the adornment of further narcissistic editorial sniping. Read the whole sad tale here, about the manner in which the "good ole boys" cruelly crushed the gondolist hopes of one mind-numbed Cortez, Colorado gondola-cultist coven.
As an added bonus, we also link an impromptu companion piece, adding unique non-faith-based perspective to Parts One & Two of reporter Schwebke's article series, from the SGO point of view.
Start Chompin', O ever-gentle readers.
69 comments:
Honestly, I think we should just trust Mayor Godfrey in every decision that he makes and we should just support that.
Interesting that this tram proposal was being considered as an alternative by the National Park Service, yet they seemed to have no will to raise auto entry fees or restrict auto access which would have helped make the tram a reality and transition the park to auto free status. Nevertheless, The project would have required building a foothill base some 5-7 road miles outside of Cortez in completely undeveloped territory. That base would have drawn the focus from downtown Cortez anyway and shooting the whole project in the foot. Even with the substantial tourist traffic that Mesa Verde draws reliably this could still not be justified. Certainly a solid lesson to guide Ogden.
On another note, it is quite amazing how much gets spent versus how little actual man hours are necessary to arrive at these conclusions. $50,000 to have some consultant decide that 10% would be the traffic they could expect to draw. Surely they pulled that figure out of their shorts. Next, make an estimate of tram construction cost based on similar installations and add some. Then do some simple math and amortization. Booyah... you have an answer and the consultant just cleaned up. Why is it that anyone cannot make these calculations. Do we always have to pay outside parties because they are impartial. Of course in our case, hopefully they will do just that since there is so much propaganda, the only way to shut up LO will be to hire someone they might respect. No doubt the results will be exactly what SGO has been saying all along. Doing the math is something few people do these days. I'd like to get paid 50g to do some elementary math and interview a few industry professionals.
Oh yeah, another installment and not a shred of information that is relevant to the URBAN GONDOLA. That is what the fuss is all about. Do we need to sell our parkland if it is unneeded. The parallel to this project is still the foothill to Malan's leg and this report shows that not even a National Park can generate the necessary draw for construction. Again the SE fails to relate the URBAN GONDOLA proposal to anything similar.
I wouldn't have thought it could get worse than the first two stories Mr. Schwebke did in the SE, but it has.
First, having visited a community which did not build a gondola because a feasibility study indicated it would not be econimically wise to do so, Mr. Schwebke managed to get Mayor Godfrey's pitch for building one in Ogden in. In the previous stories we heard the Godfrey Gondola Sales Team explaining how what the gondola did for Telluride and Kellog, it would do, in spades, for Ogden. And in Cortez, we get the mayor quoted about how Cortez decsion really wouldn't work for Ogden. All statements unexamined. No questions asked probing whether the situatons Kellog and Telluride faced and solved with gondolas are in any way similar to the situation in Ogden?
And this morning, the "facts" box still offers the Mayor's ridiculously low and out of date estimate for construction of the downtown to WSU gondola [4.5 miles] as the estimated construction price of both the downtown gondola and the WSU to Malan's Basin gondola. [6 miles]
But it gets worse. In the story, Mr. Schwebke quotes the mayor suggesting that both gondolas might in fact be build for less than $20 million. He quotes the mayor saying this: "However, Mayor Matthew Godfrey believes a gondola --- he says may cost at least $20 million and would run from downtown to Malan's Basin..." May cost at least $20 million? Suggesting it may cost less to build both? Did Mr. Schwebke ask the mayor where he got those numbers? What the basis of that claim is? No. Or if he did, the SE editors cut the question and answer out of the story.
The companion piece interviewing some SGO spokespersons about the cost estimates is interesting too. Having spoken to those he interviewed, I know they provided him estimates of the construction costs of the gondola systems, some of which were double the estimate Mr. Schwebke quotes from the mayor. Double. And he was pointed to studies that supported those estimates. Notice, please, that in the companion piece, none of the construction estimates SGO spokespersons gave him are quoted. No numbers at all. And and none of the studies he was referred to in support of the higher estimates were cited. None.
So, the etimate the Mayor gave over a year ago for the downtown leg of the gondola only [$20 million], which was subtantially lower by millions, and in some cases many millions, than the construction estimates contained in published studies, some paid for by the city of Ogden, stands in the article today, and in the "fact" box that accompanied each article, as "the" estimated construction cost of both the downtown and up mountain gondola. And the Mayor was never asked, so far as we can tell, where he got that number. On what he bases it. What studies, if any, back that number up. Never asked. By what purports to be Ogden's paper of record.
The Standard Examiner should be ashamed of what it has done. The three pieces constitute shameless shilling for the the Godfrey Gondola Sales Team. Mr. Schwebke's piece left all their statements unexamined and unprobed or if he did ask them quetsions like "what's the source of your claim that both gondolas can be built for twenty million?" their answers were cut from the article by the editorial staff.
And the companion peice, which I presume was shoved in at the last minute to provide a fig leaf to cover the paper's embarassment, and which deals with those who say the Mayor's estimate is "disingenuous" [English translation: dishonest], managed to include none of the much higher estimates of construction costs they offered, and none of the studies on which those higher estimates are based. None. Not one. This is, presmably, the SE's idea of what "balanced coverage" looks like. Seems like some editors slept through Journalism 101 they day they covered that in class.
This is what passes for "journalism" at the Standard Examiner these days? Are there no news editors there who think it is the press's job to ask questions, to not let unsupported claims by a partisan, regarding a major public issue go unexamined? No editors who even thought to suggested to Mr. Schwebke to ask the Mayor "where did you get those numbers? On what is that estimate based?"
The Standard Examiner should be ashamed of itself. In the name of truth in advertising, the owners should change the name to the "Standard Advertiser" and at least get the Mayor and his Amen Chorus to pay ad rates for the shilling the paper has done for them the last three days.
Correction and apology:
On second reading, I note that the companion piece by Mr. Schwebke did quote a $45 million estimate by the UTA transit study. I missed that on my first read through and I should not have. My apologies to Mr. Schwebke and the Standard Examiner.
I thought I'd repost these links for those who missed them last night. Far more informative tha Schlepke's drivel. A course in due diligence for MG and CP.
NPS Archive
Cortez Journal 1
Cortez Journal 2
Cortez Journal 3
The Ogden City Counsel "agenda" published in today's SE says "Planning Commission report, to include proposed ordinance amending the municipal code by adopting a new section regarding notice and review of General Plan Amendments, after allowing public input."
Huh? I hope the proposed ordinance is clearer than this summary.
Are they saying that public input is going to be permitted at tonight's meeting before the proposed ordinance is voted on or is public input going to be required by law before General Plan Amendments are considered?
Does this have to do with the new Mt. Ogden Community Plan, is this the first step leading to definition of Chris Peterson's "No Zone", or is it something completely unrelated?
Why does our CC agenda have to be so cryptic? It is difficult to give thoughtful input when one hasn't had the time to think about an issue. If there is room in the SE for all this gondola propaganda, there should be room for a decent explanation of the Ogden City Council agenda.
Of course, there should also be room for even more input from SGO, but they ask too many questions.
BTW, it didn't escape my notice that Scott Schwebke is now describing Chris Peterson as a "potential developer". Looks like Scott is paying some attention, Curm. Good for you, Scott!
Had to laugh at the evacuation procedures for the $57 million Portland Tram.
...Two 12-ton tramcars will soon glide over the tower at 175 feet above the sloped ground below...
...OK, but what if everything fails, and the cars get stuck in midair? How will I get down?
The engineers say the possibility of a midair stall is remote. So remote, they prefer we don't talk about it. But, if it happens, you don't want to be up there unless you can grow wings or you don't mind a little rope burn.
If it stalls, the tram's driver opens the door, hangs a rope from the frame out of the car and tosses it to firefighters on the ground. They climb up into the car by rope and help the passengers down one by one in a harness.
OHSU tram takes what-if thinking to new heights
From the comments on Gondolista article #2.
Anonymous wrote: "By the way, you completely forgot the IRS blocks, the intermodal hub area, the River Project, and so many more projects that are benefiting Ogden right now. None of those projects is paid for with cash, so to speak."
This sounds a lot like an email I received from then-CC Member Glassman telling me not to worry my little head about the Chapman nomination and the Little Lord's machinations because Godfrey was doing so much for Ogden. Could playing "Anonymous" be part of Glassman's new job duties?
Deja vu all over again?
Howcome we always have to learn our lessons the hard way?
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to be repeat offenders.
HEY lets all go to the rail Yard and watch a train wreck. that will bring some real exitement to ogden. Remember this Cliff Goff.
George, Yogi, etc...
What does Mr. Glassman have to do with anything?
Your comments are cute, but could you answer the questions I put forward in my e-mail?
What would you do? How would structure the debt? Do you know how the existing debt is structured? How would you move forward without using debt? Why aren't taxes going up? etc...
I know these are hard questions, kids, but the real world requires answers. Questions and cute comments are good, but if you don't have answers, you are still part of the problem, not the solution.
Your pensions, government jobs, and porch swings are great, but if you don't have answers, please get out of the way of those that MAY have one to offer.
I agree that Schwebke is trying. But he has a lot of catching up to do, to come to grips with all the misinformation he's been fed about the Ogden gondola proposal.
Yesterday was only the second time Schwebke has ever called me. (He's never emailed me or answered an email from me. I did call him once, so we've now spoken three times, all on the phone.) The first time he called me was several months ago, to try to get me to say something bad about Curt Geiger for a human interest story that appeared on the business page. On that occasion I declined to give him the quote he wanted.
Our conversation yesterday was interesting. I've talked to a lot of reporters over the years, and never encountered one quite like Schwebke. As I tried to explain to him some of the differences between Ogden, Telluride, and Kellogg, I sensed that he quickly became overwhelmed by all the information. (Keep in mind that he's just written three long articles on the subject, and that he's been covering the gondola issue ever since January.) I complimented him on reporting the hours and seasons of operation of the Telluride gondola, then asked him what the hours and seasons were in Kellogg and he didn't know. I asked him what the "six miles" in the comparison table referred to and he didn't know, so I told him what the actual lengths of the various Ogden gondola segments would be. He didn't seem to understand what was wrong with his vague attribution of the "at least $20 million" figure in the first article, where you can't tell whether or not Godfrey himself said this.
Schwebke soon became impatient with our conversation, and basically said he just wanted a quote. He was very careful to read the quote back to me so I could confirm that he got it right. He was also very careful to ask how to spell my name, and what my exact title is as a Sierra Club volunteer.
Oh, I also asked him if he had read any of my recent posts on wcforum, and he said no, he doesn't read wcforum much. I strongly urged him to read not only wcforum but also the Sierra Club and Smart Growth web sites. But I understand that flying around to resort after resort doesn't leave much time for surfing the web.
Follow-up on the via ferrata: The Weber County Planning office just returned my call from last Friday. The conditional use permit on the Waterfall Canyon Climbing Park is still pending, and is not on the agenda for this month's meeting. The next opportunity for the Planning Commission to reconsider the application would be October 24.
Anon:
You wrote if you don't have answers, please get out of the way of those that MAY have one to offer.
Well, this is progress, I guess. You did write may have one to offer. The Lift Ogden Amen Chorus, let me note, does not tolerate the wishy-washiness implict in that "may." The Lift Ogden Amen Chorus chants only "Yes!" There are no questions for them. There is no "may" about it. The gondola/gondola proposal will create 1200 jobs. The Malan's Basin mini-ski resort will succeed. The Peterson plan will increase city property tax revenues by $10 million a year or $20 million a year [the number changes now and then]. Deep pockets skiers will fly to SLC, take a cab to the Frontrunner station downtown, wait for and then board a commuter train to take them to Ogden, then board a gondola, then another gondola, in order not to go to Snow Basin. Hundreds of thousand of tourists bound for Yellowstone and the Tetons will pull off in Ogden so they can ride for 20 minutes over urban streets and then another ten minutes on another gondola up to Malan's Basin, and then do it again the other way, at a per person round trip cost of $18.
So, I congratulate you on that "may." But let me also point out that gondolistas are not the only ones offering "a way." There are the street car advocates, touting a proven technology in mid-sized cities for creating jobs, increasing property values and solving mass transit problems. Perhaps you might advise the gondolistas to get out of the way of the streetcar advocates who "may" have an answer.
But I don't mean to be critical. "May" implies "possibly" meaning the matter is not settled yet. Meaning, I presume, that lots of feasibility and market studies neet to be done and lots of questions need to be asked and answered before that "may" can be changed to a "will." I couldn't agree more, and am delighted that you too, it seems, want people to ask questions.
Want a SmartGrowthOGden sign for your lawn? I know some people. I'm sure I can get you one.
Curm,
Thank you for picking up on the word, "may." The previous discussion string didn't involve the gondola, but the same principles apply.
Progress in this town will always require people willing to stick their necks out by coming forward with options/answers that they believe will make a positive difference.
Hopefully, those coming forward, whether it you be you or the next person, will not get crucified for speaking up with proposals, but will be listened to, critiqued,... and we go from there. We can always say, "No."
Questions have an obvious, critical role in progression. However, change/progress is never risk-free and we will never have all the information we wish we had.
I fear that in Ogden, the real problem is that there are too many that lack the courage to move away from the status quo. It is too easy for too many to not make any choice at all.
The future generations always pay for that kind of cowardice.
Regards,
Anon.
Anon:
Thanks for the reply. Absolute certainty is of course never possible. But when public assests are at stake [parklands, money], seems to me it is reasonable to ask that at least the same probability of success that the market demands when funding major project be there.
With respect to the Malan's Basin development, I am concerned about its probability for success because the market has, evidently, not been willing to fund the development [which is why Mr. Peterson needs the public benchlands, to raise the capital to go forward with the Malan's Basin gondola and resort.] Given the market's unwillingness to provide the development capital Mr. Peterson needs, Ogden needs to be satisfied that there is a strong probability of the project's various components all succeeding before going forward.
Do we have a market study indicating there is a demand sufficent to support another, and very small, Wasatch front ski resort? Another to suggest the Ogden market can absorb 400 high end vacation properties, that they will bring at sale the amounts needed, and sell in sufficient numbers, to support the rest of the project? Do we have any third party support for the claim that Malan's Basin is, year in and year out, climatologically suited to a ski development?
Doubtless, there are some who would and will oppose any change every time. But not as many as you think, I suspect. A healthy caution [in proportion to what the public is being asked to put at risk] is wise in order to prevent our mistaking mere change for progress. [And yes, all the same cautions apply, or should, to the street car alternative.]
One of the things I like about the Jorgenson Plan B proposal is that it significantly reduces the public's risk, while still permitting Mr. Peterson to go forward with his up mountain gondola and Malan's Basin development [provided he can find funding in the commercial marketplace or privately]. Yes, the city would have to make some accommodations for him, specifically agreeing to sell him several acres near the head of 36th Street for his gondola base and accompanying shoppes. Because the city's exposure will be so much smaller, the probability of his resort succeeding need not be nearly so high to justify the city's helping out. Particularly, not nearly so high as would be required if the city particiaption involves surrending its largest benches park, and sinking 20 to 45 million into construction of a downtown to WSU gondola. From my POV, as the citys exposure increases, the level of probability of success required before going forward increases as well.
If we [Ogden generally, not you and I] can get this discussion off the ground of unsubstantiated claims and on the ground of credible studies by credible agents, Ogden will be a whole lot better off. And a lot less likely to make a decision it will come to regret a decade or two down the line. I wish the LO Amen Chorus had begun the public discussion with fact, evidence, feasibility studies, and the like, to present to the public to support their proposals. Instead, we got "Yes!"
Here's hoping we can, from here on, all of us, take the discussion onto firmer ground.
Anonymous
The future generations also always pay for the idiotic blunders of ego driven politicians that are wanna be developers and proceed to spend tens of millions and hundreds of millions of public dollars on ill advised and moronic schemes that fail, like this urban gondola idea that is so blatantly stupid on the face of it.
Regarding the debt--another point of view:
Debt is debt, no matter how it is structured. All that has to be paid back someday, somehow.
One thing that "structuring debt" means is that one commits portions of inflows to pay it. The more massive the debt, the more committed the inflows, and the less money one has at one's disposal for other things besides paying off that debt.
For instance, when Ogden City was ordered to pay $5 million to the Woodbury Corp., it had to take out a short term loan in order to do that. Then that short term loan was allegedly rolled into a larger loan for the Junction site. This tells us two things---first, that we couldn't afford an unexpected expense of $5 million, and second, that that doesn't seem to matter to many as long as we can find another lender.
What if the city wants or needs to do something other than these current projects and it is found that money normally used for these other things is committed to paying down the debt? When the road, (was it Country Hills Drive?) began having slide problems, I remember a Councilman saying that there was no ready money available to fix it and another operating fund had to be dipped into in order to do so, if I remember correctly. This is not good management. Do we go get loan after loan until the next three generations come to a standstill in order to pay down the money we've spent that is not our money? Right now, is there money available for infrastructure, like the water system? Will there be enough money for future cost of living raises for city employees, money to hire more if we need them, replacement of equipment, larger public safety staff and schools to serve this growth everyone says is coming whether we want it or not?
Or will our money be so committed by that time that tax increases and fee increases will be effected because most of our money is committed to projects and redevelopment, to the point that paying them off is all we can do?
We want to leave future generations a nice place to live, true, but we also need to leave them some freedom to do their own projects, if they wish to, and the means to maintain their nice place to live, especially if it grows, without making the cost of living here prohibitive. We do not want to limit their freedom, which living under debt does do.
I don't know how Ogden City's debt is structured. But I would venture a guess that part of the revenues from BDO, (which at one time were earmarked for infrastructure,) are committed to paying it off. Perhaps a lot of leveraging has gone on in order to get these loans, thereby tying up money and property so that it is not at our disposal.
If we commit too much and too many of our inflows and our assets, we and future generations will have very little room to do anything but pay off debt. I don't think too many are going to want to live like that.
Dian, extremely well thought essay on debt. The SE should publish it as an editorial, Don Porter could even sign his name to it with your permission.
Egads, I've been to CO over the weekend and now trying to catch up with all the new threads.
The CO paper had an article about the Jackson Hole gondola closing! Wonder if Rudi has a link to that?
Could be in the Fort Collins paper.
I agree that the CC agendas are a puzzle. I don't like to see General Plan on any agenda as I fear we are, bit by bit, being lulled into amending 'little' things, so when the big push comes for Peterson's BIG Plans, we will not be alarmed.
Remember the lesson of the frog placed in tepid water and as the water began to boil, the frog had become accustomed to the increased heat, so he made no attempt to jump out of the pot! Of, course, someone had a tasty meal of boiled frog legs!!
Will Godfrey and Peterson and their Real Estate Brokers, Bankers, Construction Owners, and other buddies be dining on frog legs too?
Not exactly closing:
Teton Village, Wyo., August 9, 2006)- Jackson Hole Mountain Resort (JHMR) officials announced today their intention to enhance the legacy created over the last 40 years by committing to build a new 100 passenger, state of the art aerial tramway from the base in Teton Village to the summit of Rendezvous Mountain, a vertical rise of 4,139'. This lift will have the longest continual vertical rise of any ski lift in North America. It will replace the existing smaller aerial tram that will cease to operate October 1, 2006.
Patience, gentle reader...
We have recently obtained a draft of the document to which you refer; and we will publish it in full just as soon as we have obtained the prerequisite authorization...
It will all be out in the open very soon.
Check back again.
Dian,
Some of your points are well-taken, but I strongly differ with you on others. No doubt, these kinds of discussions commonly happen in households or businesses when it comes to discussing the positive and negative affects of debt.
Not all debts, nor assets for that matter, can be considered the same thing. A truckdriver taking on debt to purchase a new truck which will increase his revenues is different than a person near bankruptcy purchasing their next Hawaiian vacation with a new credit card they just received in the mail.
Cash in the bank is a different asset than a baseball card collection.
People can argue on the catagory(s) of debt(s) that the city has undertaken, but a truly rational conversation about debt cannot take place without a clear understanding of how those debts have been structured. For example, if your goal to is reduce the possibility of future tax increases, repayment of debt from income from future, incremental property taxes on the property is a far more conservative structuring than a general obligation bond that the city could undertake. That is why there are no looming tax increases on the horizon, the banks aren't on the city's doorstep, and the Fed's aren't calling, even though so many new projects are coming in.
You are absolutely correct on your general comment regarding BDO. That is rightfully a valuable asset, but one that the city government must be very cautious on how obligations that are placed on it. There is such thing as too much of a good thing, to be sure.
There is no way to cover all the issues with debt in a place like this, but it is something that people will learn about as time goes on.
All else being equal, assets are better than debt, but I argue sometimes debt is alot better than nothing.
Regards,
Anon.
Re: Dian and debt
Last year, Stuart Reid wrote an article stating that all Godfrey's debt "wasn't really debt". I wrote a rebuttal to him, then Stu resigned. Godfrey's fiscal mismanagement far exceeds all his other failings in the eventual damage it will do to the city.
Anon.
Any particulars? Or, are we stuck with sweeping generalizations that leave us wondering if you are a kook or a genius?
Curmu-
Streetcars! What a proposal. Smartgrowth Ogden says they promote it. Lift Ogden says they aren't against it. The gondola and the streetcar are not mutually exclusive.
Gondola proponents have managed to get a lot further down the road with a Smart Growth Ogden opposed gondola than Smart Growth Ogden has with an un-opposed street car system. Heck, there is significant evidence out there that shows that the Gondola project is a strong contributor to the city's current economic recovery.
Maybe a bit more emphasis on promoting a street car should take place by Smart Growth Ogden rather than so much an emphasis on opposing the gondola that seems to be delivering some positive results. At worst, the Gondola certainly isn't pushing the economic recovery away.
Too much opposition in the face of progress doesn't serve Ogden.
Its good to see that Smart Growth Ogden jumped right in there to try to counter the gondola supporting evidence in Kellog and Telluride.
We can't have anyone seeing that Gondolas have worked for some communities out there now, can we?
"We want involvement...but only if your involvement opposes the gondola and dismisses it as mush. We want questions asked...but not if they are oriented on "how can we make this work?". The only appropriate questions are oriented on "how can we stop this project?"
Fact is, If Smart Growth Ogden want's Ogden to buy into a lower Street Car Figure than the $100 million figure noted in the transit study, they should also concede that there may be a lower construction figure for the gondola than the $40 million figure found in the transit study.
Its a two way street. Lift Ogden preferrs one lane (gondola) in the near term, and supports the other (street car) in the long term. Smart Growth Ogden sees only one lane (Street Car)with NO GONDOLA.
Can't we all just get a long? It's difficult when Smart Growth Ogden can't operate on a two way street.
annon.
haven't you ever thought that the gondola Idea is just a bad Idea, no where have you ever said how this will help bring commerce back into downtown. Why doesn't the mayor do other things for the downtown area other than push for this developement for chris peterson. when chris peterson should do all this on his own. I wish that the mayor would come out and promote my business with tax dollars!!
Anonymous, You seem to have skipped over all the analysis explaining why the Telluride and Kellogg system have worked in their unique surroundings. Ogden simply does not share the same criteria that makes it work for them. The clearest difference is that those systems are similar to the proposed Foothill to Malan's link and nothing like the proposed Urban gondola. So why build the urban gondola. No one has shown us a SUCCESSFUL Urban Gondola. I challenge you. I would love to see it. That urban gondola, to be similar to the LO proposal, should be at least 4 miles in length, and traverse urban territory with 2 or 3 stops. Now get out and find me one like that and I'll take a look at it's bottom line.
The mayor was responsible for ditching the streetcar idea and getting him to look seriously at it again is not likely. He has cornered himself in the gondola car and he's not coming out.
Let's make this clear again...Most of the posters here and many SGO supporters have exressed a neutral attitude on Peterson building his resort, with his own money and on a small piece of land he should be able to wrangle form WSU. Let him do that and we as a city can get on with our transit issues. Our future transit needs have been hijacked by these misguided individuals when they confuse a gondola system with transit. Please reread some of the posts here as you have just negated in your own mind mounds of solid evidence and analysis that shows the folly of such an urban system.
That is the problem wuith LO, they are so sold on this thing that even in the face of contrary evidence they get glassy eyed and say things like "can't we all get along" instead of looking at facts. SAD. If science had to face such inability to evaluate and confirm proof we would still be in the stone age.
Theorem, postulate, proof. Once you reach proof supported by tested theorem and fact, there is no need to continually regress to that this is proven false. The emotional, though tend to exercise this regression quite frequently as they clamor to hold to their entrenched, yet, disproved, position.
This is what has happened when the whole damn thing has been packaged in such a complex "gotta do it for the good of ogden" package. Mention mountain gondola and the proponents see urban gondola. Mention urban gondola and they see mountain gondola. They cannot see the difference and thus we have a stalemate of ignorance.
Being a part of the LO Amen Chorus at near the beginning, it struck me first how almost none of the members ski, most have not ridden on a gondola and few have visited any mountian town outside of Utah. In time it was also clear that they were strategizing to create the kind of divisivness we now have. There was never any talk of feasibility, research, fact finding, budgets, etc. Those endless pesky facts that get in the way of empty dreams. We were all supposed to eat it up as though all the groundwork had been done. We awaited eagerly through three or four meetings for Chris Peterson to make an appearance and show us his plans. When he finally appeared with NO plans, No drawings, No nothing except the lie that it would go to Snowbasin. I bailed shortly thereafter when it was clear this group had no clue. I would be the first to advocate a gondola...if it went to snowbasin. Without that connection it is absolutely useless. Further research revealed the benefits of streetcars and Transit Oriented Development(hence my moniker) Research and evidence brings one to obvious conclusions. If just a few of the LO choir asked a question or two they too would find the flimsy house of cards they all live in.
I think everyone is getting hung up on the details and missing the big picture.
The big picture is the large high end resort development in Malan Basin that's supposed to put Ogden on the map! The reason why people will want to come to and live in Ogden.
All other projects are in support of Malan Basin.
So.... where's the Malan Basin development plans and where are the financial numbers that our leaders in Ogden are to use to decide whether or not to entertain this dream of Mr. Peterson?
Until our city officials and its residents see these numbers, why are our officials going on these fact finding missions. Seems to me that they are all ready sold on the idea.
So let's get our officials re-focused on the big picture. Mr. Peterson show us that Malan Basin will support a large high end resort development, that it's financially viable, and that will put us on the map.
If the paper's footnote in today's paper relating to the comparision of the two system are accurate and the local rate to use the gondola in Ogden is $1.50 per person and the transit study says that annual ridership will only be 321,000 people per year(roughly $480,000 dollars a year in total revenue), that leaves a short fall (based on the projected operating cost of $4.3 million dollars) of about $3.8 million dollars per year. Will Mr. Peterson pick that up amount annually forever or are we the residents expected to pay that is some hidden subsidy? I know what I think will happen.
Doesn't sound like the urban gondola is even close to making finacial sense (-$3.8 million per year) and I don't want to subsidize it so Mr. Peterson can get rich.
A street car system will serve the residents better, promotes economic growth through out the city, is expandable, cost us less up front after the Feds and UTA pitch in (about 1/10 of the cost of a gondola system), as well as the UTA will operate the street car system for us with the existing taxes that we already pay to the state.
Monotreme
Don't hold your breath on that evidence.
These clowns just keep throwing crap against the wall to see what sticks. They never substantiate anything they say. Half of them believe the lies the other half tell. The lying half believe their own lies which is one sign of very disturbed people.
The Descente guys are the worst perpitrators of this scam. They recently rewrote their own history to give credit to the gondola for them bringing their small handfull of ski clothes salesmen to town. They contribute practically nothing to the economic life of Ogden, yet they position themselves as the great saviors of the town. Dispicable characters all.
How can you compare Cortez's project to Ogden. It two systems, a high speed gondola and a tram. Both total 7 miles and I doubt that both could be built for $13.5 million dollars.
So how long were the two systems individually and which one of the two projects cost $13.5 million?
There are more jobs and higher total payroll on the average framing crew, convenience store, fast food restaurant, jiffy lube, etc. than in these ski companies. They also produce something locally and import little or nothing from China. The modern sport clothing company is little more than a logo design and an answering machine. Everything is contracted out. Many rarely handle their own product which is dropped shipped from centralized jobbers' warehouses. Their offices are welcome here but their presence is overrated.
Anonymous, The lesson from Cortez, which does not have a tram, by the way, since they had a feasibility study that declared it unprofitable,is...That even with a National Park to generate traffic the cost could not be recovered from an estimated ten percent of total visitors using it. Since we do not have a National Park, just a dream of a Malan's Basin Resort, how could it expect to draw even a fraction.. Mesa Verde Nationa;l Park has been drawing visitors for decades. Malan's isn't even on the drawing boards, literally. Now, again...sheez this gets tedious. This whole issue is about whether to build an Urban Gondola and pay for it by selling our valued parklands. The Cortez Tram was not an Urban Gondola or Urban Tram. There is nothing Urban anywhere near Cortez Colorado. It has been demonstrated over and over that there is no sense and no sitable example of a system similar to what is proposed for Ogden. Gee, how hard is it to understand that if the URBAN Gondola is not necessary, THEN it is not necessary to sell our beautiful parklands. Peterson is WELCOME by me to build his resort and MOUNTAIN gondola but my previous statements and the lesson from Cortez makes it clear that Malan's Basin Resort and Mountain Gondola is not likely to be financially viable enough to justify it's own construction.
Allow me to reverse engineer the whole mess. If Malan's Resort is not feasible, (don't forget it is supposed to be roadless making it EXTREMELY expensive to build)then there will be no need for the Mountain Gondola or Urban Gondola(there is no need for it anyway. Only Peterson thinks it is key to his project)to serve it. By this logic we ALL win because our children and their offspring will still be able to live in an Ogden with spectacular foothill park and unobstructed trails.
The gondola proposal by Mayor Matthew Goffrey is not well thought out, lacking vital information, (i.e. 1200 jobs created?, etc), not cost worthy, and bad for the city of Ogden. I will write in more detail for each of these points I have mentioned above.
First, the gondola proposal is not well thought out because it violates many circumstancial property allowances, personal beauty, the depth and grade of the ridges for where people will ski, play golf, and ultimately live. I see it as it is 25% good for the public and 75% GREAT for Chris Peterson. (landowner in which to see to make ski resort, etc) The other proposal, Street Cars, is much better and is more beneficial for the public by at least 80% in my opinion.
Second, the lack of vital information in this proposal by the mayor himself leaves for some very serious questions, specifically stating; Why can't Mayor Godfrey come up with the source(s) to which he states this proposal will create some odd 1200 new jobs created and 5-10 million in tax revenue. This information that he eloquently stated formally has been addressed to Mayor Godfrey with a wonderful, what some of may call famous, I cannot disclose that information. Now, why is that? The only explanation I can come up with is that he or some of his supporting members made the information up for effect. Did it have an affect? Yes, to those that blindly read and believe anything a person says that stands for authority. I call these people zombies.
Third, this proposal is not cost worthy. The gondola porposal is projected to cost 45 million which can only be supported locally and privately since UTA and WTA have not accepted the proposal and will not fund it. The Street Car proposal will be funded by 50% by WTA (50 million) and 45% by UTA (45 million) and the last 5% will be funded the by the city of Ogden (5 million). The Gondolas also cost more to run than the Street Cars. The Gondola proposal, as I have simply stated is obviously not cost worthy.
Fourth, the Gondola proposal is bad for the city of Ogden for two reasons. First, many people use the trails where the Gondola proposal plans to build a golf course. Yes, there will be new trails created, but who wants to hike through parts of the golf course driving range and at new 50% grade heights? Second, this town needs visitors brought to the city for revenue, not to the ski slopes that are only visited seasonally. Those numbers could be argued all day.
In sumamry, the Gondola proposal by Mayor Godfrey is mundane, ridiculous, cost producing short and long term, and ultimately lowers morale. Do you want to see the mountains in their awesome Godly beauty, which has been recognized by many official sources as the reason for coming to Ogden, or do you want to see trails ruined, your mountain urbanized and cut up by steep, cost producing roads, non-airconditioned gondolas that look like they shuld cost two Lagoon tickets for a dollar? You make your decision. My decision to support Mayor Godfrey on this proposal is absolutely NO and the Street Car proposal is much more feasible and better for economy of Ogden. I can explain this point more if anyone requests. Thank you for your time. I hope I brought some points that made you think. Good night!
At the risk of being slammed...I will ask the following:
Can anyone give me examples of where Gondola/tramways were constructed and failed? And further more, can you give me one that failed that matched the situation being proposed here?
New Orleans...built for World's Fair in 1984
Moab...hardly matches what we are talking about here.
In addition, as I was trying to find more information I was amazed by how many lifts are currently under construction:
http://www.seilbahntechnik.net/lifte/building_sites/page1.php
And how many 8 person gondolas there are out there:
http://www.seilbahntechnik.net/lifte/Ort/8-gondelbahn/page1.php
I understand that all of these aren't the same as the project proposed here, but I was still struck by the numbers.
"I see it as it is 25% good for the public and 75% GREAT for Chris Peterson. (landowner in which to see to make ski resort, etc) The other proposal, Street Cars, is much better and is more beneficial for the public by at least 80% in my opinion."
Yes, you made me think that I'm 87.5% that 95% of all statistics are made on the spot.
Good night and good luck.
I think we should forget all this airial gondola BS and get with the real Gondola program.
I mean Venice style Gondolas, the real thing, not this new fangled danglin in the air phony stuff.
All we got to do is berm up the sides of 23rd street from Wall to Harrison, and then do the same to Harrison on out to Weber College. Then we flood the damned up roads and import some Gondola boats. I know a guy that's brother works in purchasing at the Venician Hotel in Vegas. He can get us in on a deal to buy the real Gondolas by piggy backing in on the hotel's Gondola orders. We can save at least 50% if we give him the cash up front.
We get them boats cruisin up and down the boulvards turned canals turned beach front properties and haulin more folks around than ten street cars or twenty fake gondolas could ever dream of. It will be the ultimate people mover on that important transit corridor every bodies so damn worried about.
Now here is how this deal is going to be great for our home town folks of color. We train some of our handsome young minorities to sing Italian songs, fit them up with some spiffy tights and blouses, teach them how to push them Gondolas up and down the streets turned canals, and Viola!
We will be the only town in the world that has a True Gondola from the train station to the College. I mean nobody in the whole damn world will be able to compare to us.
Rich people in London and Paris will send their kids to Weber because of this incredible combination of Gondolas, Mormons and Cute Minorities in tights! 1201 new jobs will be created fersure, and Weber College will now become a major University with 1002 new students bringing in $5,000,003 dollars more each year.
In addition the City will have a new taxing source and it is guaranteed that $10,000,004 of new taxes will come into our city and school coffers each and every year till the lord comes and takes us all home.
Those reallyh really rich people from Tokyo, Rome and Stockholm that flock here to see such world wonders for themselves will buy up those four hundred and five rich folks houses that we are going to build along the canals.
Goodeey Company will bring in at least 6 new employees and they will be able to use the canals between Gondolas to test their new products. Something the old fashioned faux Gondola scheme could never boast of. I mean common, can you just see some body trying to water ski down a big ol metal cable strung betweed a couple a poles?
We will dig a real deep shaft down there below wall so's that we have a year around supply of water to keep the canals full and fresh. Then we can divert the water that gets pushed out the end up there high on 23rd street and that will solve their rusty water problem for good. And best of all the tax payers will get to have their names on the title for the shaft and the ground it is on.
Ya see how this idear solves so many of our problems? mass transit, failing infastructure, water sports Research and Development, world fame. It is just simply amazing and the only thing between us and nirvana is a few old college professers and a few assorted nay sayers who hate Ogden and don't want anything good to ever happen here and are big dumb dream haters that don't know nothin. All they ever want to do is sit around and ask a bunch of dumb assed questions like that was going to solve anything.
But on a brighter note, I know that the Peterson fella has signed on to this proposal as it will be a major boost to his long cherished dream of building a faux gondola up the side of the mountain to his Tyrolean dream lodge in the clouds.
I can also now report that I just came from a meeting with Mayor Goodnfree and he has enthusiasticaly endorsed the entire idea. He simply beamed and gushed all over the plans and testified that there wasn't one single thing he could see that he would change. He said that if this can only be accomplished in his term of office that it would glorify his whole life and he could then go on to his true calling of being a Tyrolean Monk hid away in a hut behind Peterson's dream Lodge in the clouds.
This devinely inspired meeting of My brilliance and that of this Peterson fella will garner even more world fame and fortune because once again we here in Ogden will be on the cutting edge and be the only ones in the entire world, or solar system, that will have a real Gondola that will take you to a fake gondola that will take you to the fantasy Lodge in the mind of the guy that has the lips that kissed the billionair's daughter, and from which you can look out the back window and see the hut that holds the Tyrolean Monk that used to be mayor of Ogden but has now reached his full potential.
Now for my favorite part. The tax payers will pay for it all because it will solve the mass transit problem, I will own it and run it and take the filthy lucre that it generates so that we do not pollute the minds and morals of the young of Ogden and the parents won't have to be bothered with worrying about huge amounts of money that will only bring disharmony into their lives anyway.
This is just simply great for everyone. We all win! I will get the money, the mayor will get the glory and the tax payers will get the shaft.
Ozboy, if only SOMEONE at the 'lustrous SE had the intelligence to grasp the vision you have so wondrously laid out for us commonfolk, they would print this in it's thrilling entirety.
I am putting in my resume posthaste for one of those 1203 new jobs right now!
I DO hope you are one of those 39 hopefuls for the City Council! You are a real thinker AND have a creative mind. That coupled with your problem solving skills make you the leading candidate for the City Council.
I can see that you are humble and modest so I don't suppose we will be able to recognize you when you take the podium until you are sworn in and then all the commoners will be titillated by your imagination and vision for a better Ogden. It will a glorious day when you can be seen and heard throughout the land on our very own Ch 17! Just think how enlightened our populace will be...why mothers with babes in arms and at breast can stir up the potatoes and 'be involved in the process' as our 'lustrous mayor has urged us to be. Tired and weary fathers can relax after a hard day repairing infrastructure and watach you on our very own Ch17 and KNOW that better days are coming to Ogden.
Glory be...YOU, with your wondrous visions to put Ogden on the map AND Godfrey in a hut (enjoying his legacy) must be trumpeted around the world. I am certain that Scott Schwebke will join bylines with Kristin Moulton to do just that! Oh, and Curt Geiger will make sure that all his European friends and WA DC buds will sing your praises and flock to Ogden to open snorkling, and fishing equipment stores.
Thank you, Mr. Ozboy, savior of Ogden and Godfrey's reputation!!
ozboy,
"I LIKE it, uh huh uh huh, I LIKE it, uh huh uh huh.'
Ozboy for king!
Hey Anonymous,
You sneer that SGO hasn't gotten as much publicity as the gondola.
Well, duh....LO pushers just about own the Substandard Examiner, don't you? Check it out...compare the coverage between the two groups.
JLFI,
Remember that there are two systems planned for Ogden; A mountain gondola that would connect the foothill above WSU to Malan's Basin and Peterson's proposed resort. That project in itself is of highly questionable feasibility. The sheer costs of building it roadless or not(god forbid) would be astronomical and clearly the reasoning behind the attempt to acquire the Mt Ogden Parklands to subsudize it's construction. The other system is the Urban Gondola which is proposed to connect downtown to aforementioned resort base. It is being touted as key to the success of the Malan's resort project.
There are many systems worldwide that resemble the Mountain Gondola (the resemblance is that the gondola provides passenger service to the resort base facilities from a lower elevation base and parking.) but none that I can find that support a roadless resort where ALL of the service and infrastructure depends on the lift.
The Urban Gondola is an entirely different gorilla. I cannot find a single installation worldwide that resembles what is being proposed. It woiuld have to be a several mile ssystem that traverses an urban area with just a few stops. I cannot find anything that fits that criteria. There are many gondolas in urban settings but they serve a very specific purpose such as linking two remote points of interest. The proposal for Ogden is being touted as transit and it is nothing of the sort.
just looking for information,
If you're looking for gondola systems that were built and failed, there probably aren't many, because after a FEASIBILITY STUDY was completed, those prone to fail weren't built!
So building the Ogden urban gondola (without a feasibility study) because almost all of the gondolas that have been built have succeeded, doesn't guarantee it's success.
TOD Transit,
I think Sunshine Village in Banff is a roadless resort where ALL of the service and infrastructure depends on the lift. But, I think there's a lot less lodging there then is being proposed for Malan's.
The SE has an article this morning that quotes Mary Hall and makes an attempt at giving press to SGO and the streetcar proposal. It is far from the three front-page pro-gondola articles we've seen this week, but it's more than was being published. Once again, Scott Schwebke referred to Chris Peterson as a potential developer! This is a good start, we just need more balance coverage out where readers will see it. Since many people read only the weekend papers, I'll now get greedy and ask for something on the front page of the Sunday issue.
I still have never seen anything demonstrating Chris Peterson's proven record as someone who could pull off a project of this magnitude. All I have is Mayor Godfrey's condescending joke in reply to a similar query at one of his "invited meetings" in which he said "We had someone check Chris out and he's a good guy." Never said who that "someone" was.
Also, on Saturday Morning Dan Bedford will be speaking at a League of Women Voters picnic on the streetcar vs gondola issue. Last I had heard, the site wasn't definite because of weather, but I'm sure Googling (sorry, 'using the Google search engine to find') the Odgen LWV will provide that information for anyone who is interested.
Southsider, Sunshine Village at Banff has an 84 room ski-in ski-out lodge served by gondola. I am not sure if there is service support exclusively by gondola but it is not accessible to guests by car. I will do more research on that one. It is feasible to operate under gondola support, construction is another game. Sunshine was not constructed with solely gondola support to my knowledge. Also the total of the resort is not supported by gondola, only the Sunshine Lodge area. There is ski access parking at the resort base where two quads and the gondola are based. Thanks for the remarks. Sunshine is unique, though I understand there are several such setups in Europe. Most of them have road support while they restrict visitors. I'll try to clarify and find what the details are on any I can find. Euro sites are difficult to search out and navigate.
"If you're looking for gondola systems that were built and failed, there probably aren't many, because after a FEASIBILITY STUDY was completed, those prone to fail weren't built!"
And you know this how? My guess is that you are correct, but without something to back it up you are also spewing stuff without a "study."
Recent anonymous, I believe the burden is on you to provide us with a gondola system that was built without a feasibility study. Most gondola systems are built by experienced ski area operators. Many of them replace current lift systems and the feasibility is long established. So please help us and contribute some data or at least somewhere you may be aware of and I'll gladly research it.
LOL Burden of Proof?...I'm not making statements as if they are fact....with nothing to back it up.
Oh yeah, I readily admit that he may be right, but again, if you make a statement and someone calls you on it...back it up.
Anyone can say anything....I'm 83% sure of that.
Actually the only gondola system in recent memory that was built and failed was in Moab..adn uess what...no feasibility study, just a bullheaded "developer" who managed to round up the capital before getting the approvals to connect to a bike trail and going on faith. So what is wrong with asking you to provide me with an example of a gondola system that went broke. I've done reams of research here, you wanna help? Might be good for the city, it ain't personal.
Ozboy does not aspire to be king or councilor. He only hopes to be a buss boy at Mr. Peterson's Tyrolean fantasy Lodge and perhaps, if fate shall will it, get a chance to wash the feet of the resident Tyrolean Monk in the hut in the rear.
And please "Impressed" we are not claiming 1203 new jobs will come to town. Our extensive research indicates only 1201 new jobs will be created. We never exagerate our potential. The truth is good enough for us, we do not need to revert to the tactics of the Ogden haters who run around throwing made up facts and figures out to the citizens in an attempt to confuse them.
I haven't made any statements here that cannot be backed up by fact. Go ahead pick apart my analysis of the Kellogg, Telluride and Cortez situations. If I cannot back somethinag up I willa gladly reatract it.
tod I wasn't asking you...someone said "...there probably aren't many, because after a FEASIBILITY STUDY was completed, those prone to fail weren't built!"
My question is how many projects are stopped because a feasibility study is done? Evidently it is lot of them because "those prone to fail are not built afterward."
That is a statment of fact and I only know of one, (cortez) I was hoping the person stating such "fact" would have proof of said "fact."
I too would like the example of a gondola that has failed besides Moab and New Orleans. I'd also like to know how many have been stopped by a feasiblity study.
That is all I'm asking.
Mr Ozboy, Sir!
I stand corrected...but I was planning on bringing my brother and sister-in-law thru a hole in the wall from Tijuana! That would make it 1203 jobs, and we would like 3 of them.
My sis is a good waitress, if you accept serving tacos from a stand as 'waitress' experience.
Dang..sure was hoping you were gonna be on the council. But, washing the monk in the rear (hut) is good too. Long Live OzBoy!!
Perhaps this conversation would be a little less confusing if all our "anonymouses" picked a unique "handle" and used it consistently.
It ain't complicated:
1) Click "other;"
2) Type in your chosen "handle" (Ignore the "Your Website box;)
3) Type in your comment;
4) Type in the word verification as usual;
5) Press the "Publish your comment" button.
Voila!
Sheesh!
I wouldn't know how to find any turned down projects. My guess is that most record of them gets buried in some newspaper archives. It was tough to find the stuff on cortez. Didn't pop up in the google searches.
I just found record of an aerial tram initiative for Mt Lemmon near Tucson, Az. It has been cooking for about three years from what I have found.
Tucson Tram
Impressed
If you truly want in on this once in a lifetime opportunity I would suggest that you, your brother and sister in law all start learning Italian songs.
tod
The link you provided on the Tuscon tram is three years old. Do you have any info on where that proposal has gone since?
I like how you seem to have cut out some of the repeditiveness in your posts. You are coming up with some very good info and insight. Ogden needs more critical thinkers like you making decisions.
Si, senor. I think that maybe she could learn how to make the spaghett, no? Even a little ravioli?
Thanks Fred, The most recent was a feasibility study award recommendation from Pima County Procurement Dept. to HDR Engineering for $100,000 dated dec.'05 Searching the HDR website reveals nothing. HDR is a huge company with projects worldwide including many in Utah. So Pima County pays 100g to study their proposal. Since our City Government is now into this project for more than 50g largely for marketing an unstudied project maybe they put the cart before the horse. Could have saved some money and breath just going for a current study. Painful to see the way the Mayor, Peterson and LO has behaved. A study in bullheaded, brazen, we-know-better politics
The HDR website has many links to documents relating to Transit and Transit Oriented Development
HDR Engineering
In response to the anonymous who posted at 5:14 yesterday afternoon...
Streetcars! What a proposal. Smartgrowth Ogden says they promote it. Lift Ogden says they aren't against it. The gondola and the streetcar are not mutually exclusive.
UTA and WFRC have stated very clearly that they will not support two transit investments in the same corridor, because there isn't enough potential ridership to sustain two competing systems. This means that if Ogden builds the gondola, there will never be a streetcar (or bus rapid-transit) between downtown and WSU. In practice, therefore, the two are mutually exclusive, and Lift Ogden, by promoting the gondola, is indirectly opposing the streetcar.
Gondola proponents have managed to get a lot further down the road with a Smart Growth Ogden opposed gondola than Smart Growth Ogden has with an un-opposed street car system.
Again, the streetcar is hardly unopposed. Besides the indirect opposition through support of the gondola, Lift Ogden and the mayor have spread an enormous amount of misinformation about the streetcar. SGO certainly isn't any more against the gondola than LO is against the streetcar; SGO's current position is that we should listen to what our region's transit experts are saying, and we shouldn't approve any part of the Peterson proposal until SGO's questions about it have been answered.
And I can't think of any sense in which the gondola proposal is "further down the road," other than the fact that everyone's talking about it, which is hardly surprising when you have the mayor pushing it so enthusiastically. The streetcar has at least been proven feasible by competent professionals. We have no such proof for the gondola, much less for the rest of the Peterson project.
Heck, there is significant evidence out there that shows that the Gondola project is a strong contributor to the city's current economic recovery.
You have a very low standard for "significant evidence." I can only assume you're referring to the occasional press release where some company relocates to Ogden, or makes some other investment, and says that the possibility of the gondola played a role in their decision. But remember, every one of these companies knows (or should know) that the gondola is a long shot. There's a very good chance that it won't be built, because either the City Council, or WSU, or the Forest Service will refuse to give the needed approvals. Also, every one of these companies knows that they'll score points with the mayor for saying this, whether it's true or not. Finally, by many measures, the economic recovery began many years before all the recent gondola hype. The major positive economic factors have included BDO, the coming arrival of the FrontRunner, strong growth throughout the state and region, and a nationwide revival of interest in urban (rather than suburban) living. The gondola is utterly insignificant in comparison to any one of these.
Maybe a bit more emphasis on promoting a street car should take place by Smart Growth Ogden rather than so much an emphasis on opposing the gondola...
Have you looked at SGO's web site? You should never judge a grassroots organization solely by what you read in the newspaper. Remember that the mayor sets the agenda and frames the questions, and SGO's opportunities to get media attention are almost exclusively when it reacts to the mayor's proposals. Did you attend last night's presentation by Mary Hall? She talked about the streetcar first, and in quite a bit of detail, but you'd never know it from Schwebke's article in today's paper.
Its good to see that Smart Growth Ogden jumped right in there to try to counter the gondola supporting evidence in Kellog and Telluride.
Again, it's either react to the questions that the reporter is asking, or remain invisible.
We can't have anyone seeing that Gondolas have worked for some communities out there now, can we?
Sure we can. No argument there at all. The question isn't whether these other gondolas are working; the question is whether the two-gondola system and associated developments proposed here would work.
"We want involvement...but only if your involvement opposes the gondola and dismisses it as mush. We want questions asked...but not if they are oriented on "how can we make this work?". The only appropriate questions are oriented on "how can we stop this project?"
Whom are you quoting? Last night Mary Hall specifically said that SGO wants people to get involved no matter what their views. The same message was delivered at the Mt. Ogden neighborhood meeting that SGO organized last April. Were you there?
Fact is, If Smart Growth Ogden want's Ogden to buy into a lower Street Car Figure than the $100 million figure noted in the transit study, they should also concede that there may be a lower construction figure for the gondola than the $40 million figure found in the transit study.
Fact is, I've never heard SGO advocate a lower figure for the streetcar. Fact is, SGO's web site says the currently proposed version of the gondola could perhaps be built for as little as $30 million (based on what we know from two different feasibility studies).
Its a two way street. Lift Ogden preferrs one lane (gondola) in the near term, and supports the other (street car) in the long term. Smart Growth Ogden sees only one lane (Street Car)with NO GONDOLA.
Actually, it's UTA and WFRC who said we can't have both. Don't blame SGO for being the messenger.
Another problem with the gondola is that is part of a package of developments that have not even been put to the drawing board and run through ehxhaustive feasibility studies.
That includes Malan's Basin Resort, which roadless or not, is an extreme engineering challenge.
Even Malan's Resort requires Peterson get someone to sell him property for at least a base, most likely WSU and that is not at all guaranteed.
Peterson, at this point, insists that even that plan is not on the table, he wants the golf course or he builds nothing.
So the gondola connection downtown suffers from these extremely complex dependencies....
Whereas the Transit Corridor suffers from none of these dependencies and UTA doesn't want one single acre of our Parklands. We have the participation of the states Transit Authority and lucky for Utah, they are on aggressive transit development schedule. Now if only the Mayor could get on board. Transit will also bring a slew of jobs from the development that follows it across the city.
So while the gondolistas push their product the city's transit needs are held hostage for several more years if this nonsense continues. If we invite UTA back in things get rolling sooner than later.
Dan and Tod:
(sounds like a morning drive time radio team!)
Anyway guys, I appreciate your intelligent and well thought out approach to these problems, please keep it up.
But trying to use logic in debating this gondola proposal with the LO mind numb zombies is the classic example of tilting against windmills.
Their little minds are programmed by the Little Mayor and the Geiger clan and all the logic in the world isn't going to penetrate those dim bulbs.
Like Lemmings they know only one path, so quit trying to educate them with anything logical or smart.
ted,
From what I can tell, LO supporters are a pretty diverse group in terms of their willingness to listen. I admit, though, that the "anonymous" who whom I responded doesn't seem to care about facts. I responded not because I held any serious hope of changing this person's mind, but rather for the benefit of any other readers who might be interested in seeing a detailed rebuttal.
When I read the article above about the new gondola proposal I thought it was a very funny piece of satire. When I first read about the across town gondola a year ago I thought the same thing.
I was pretty shocked when I found out the first city gondola proposal was not a joke and that the city administration was actually spending a lot of money pursuing it.
Now I am even more fearfull that our city leaders will actually try to build this new gondola project as it sounds more practical than the first one did. Actually they both seem very crazy to me.
I am fairly new in Ogden (2 years) and am wondering if this is normal for this town and how long this sort of thing has been going on around here. It seemed so nice and sane at first but the longer I am here the stranger things seem to be.
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