By RudizinkFor those daring but spiritually-decadent readers willing to violate the Holy Sabbath by going online today, we highlight two interesting tidbits from today's morning news:
For a stark example of the unpleasant but wholly-predictable consequences of slapdash hillside residential development, the Emerald City townsfolk need look no further than neighboring Mountain Green. This morning's Standard-Examiner story brings us up to date on the latest shenanigans in the Highlands West Subdivision landslide brouhaha.
It seems the homeowner of the now-abandoned and uninhabitable 5,600 sq. ft. residential structure is deeply into default on her mortgage loan, but the lender nevertheless refuses to perfect its security interest by foreclosure. Morgan County, (the government entity who approved the ill-considered development in the first place,) likewise refuses to take title to the property by quitclaim deed. They won't touch it with a ten-foot pole. Nobody wants to touch this problem property, as a matter of fact.
Meanwhile, the county is attempting to stick the costs of demolition and/or remodeling on the erstwhile homeowner, who has clearly "walked" from the property... and who is also repeatedly mentioning the much-dreaded "L- word" during selected conversations. For added spice, the down-slope neighbors are grumbling about all the "red tape," and appear to be developing something of a lynch-mob mentality, as the soggy uphill slope creeps, according to the natural (and entirely predictable) laws of physics, inexorably toward their own "upscale" (but "down-slide") properties.
Some day soon, a district court will decide who is ultimately responsible for the bone-headed acts of approving, funding and building a large "upscale" residential development on a steep pile of wet, inherently unstable hillside sediment. There's plenty of potential liability to go around, due to the co-operative participation of greedy developers, lenders, and compliant government planning and decision-making officials. Some (if not all) of these "players" will be ordered to reach into their pockets to cure this problem, no doubt. Our bet is that the good taxpayers of Morgan County will pick up a sizeable portion of the ultimate "tab, however;" and it's our prediction that the individual homeowner will be proven to have been the least culpable of all this whole motley and greedy lot.
A portent for the future of Emerald City? We sincerely hope not. Our own city council is smarter than that... right?
And for a look at Boss Godfrey's latest crackpot scheme to morph Emerald City into a giant urban amusement park, take a gander at this morning's front-page Standard-Examiner story. Son of the Nitty-gritty Dirt Band is reported to be the latest psuedo-celebrity white knight-errant evidently to arrive in Boss Godfrey's office to save we poor lumpentownsfolk from ourselves. A Giant Pond Arena is in our future, according to the ever-increasingly
The river-side property in question is reported to encompass some 50 acres or so. Our psychic "inner self" senses another Godfrey-style sweetheart developer deal coming up. Today's article is silent, unfortunately, about whether this project is contingent upon the construction of a gondola.
Don't let the cat get your tongues.
Update 9/14/06 8:21 a.m. MT: The Standard-Examiner provides this follow-up story this morning, concerning the travails of the property owner in Mountain Green:
"Hayes said demolishing her home will not prevent future ground movement, something neighboring land owners disagree with.
"The landslide will continue," Hayes said. "(Removing my home) cannot prevent any ground movement."
A mere glance at the our above header graphic, which illustrates the nature of the soil subsidence in her hillside neighborhood, shows why Mother Nature will continue to have her way with the Highlands West Subdivision, regardless of whether Mrs. Hayes's residential structure is demolished or not.
Update 9/17/06 5:05 p.m. MT: This story grows even more interesting with this morning's front-page Std-Ex story. Our home town newspaper does a pretty good job when they hire a real reporter to write up a story.
48 comments:
Regarding this pond--who owns it? Isn't this Our Pond?
I had a conversation with someone about this awhile ago and was told that, until the pond had become contaminated, this pond had always been open to the public for fishing, etc. I was told that the clean-up will Not be paid for by Ogden City, but by those who originally contaminated it, yet after this clean-up occurred, the public would not be allowed use of the pond because Goode would be testing product there.
"They gave away our pond," this person said to me.
Has anyone else heard something similar to this?
There have been rumblings in West Haven for several years about the buildup of the garbage dump near the pond.
These rumblings have come from residents of West Haven who have been going to their Council and the Mayor of West Haven because the trash pile keeps getting higher and higher. However, it seems the government of West Haven let the garbage dump owner do whatever he wanted to do with the garbage pile.
Don't ever think that Ogden has the only incompetent mayor and council.
Now maybe the garbage dump is planned to be given to Ogden to cleanup - if we are talking about the same mountain of trash -
This sounds like something Harmer and his aides would go for in a minute. They would have guaranteed lifetime employment figuring out how to move it out to the airport to dump with the concrete slabs and debris from the old Ogden downtown mall site that was moved truckload by truckload to dump in the Southwest portion of the airport when the Ogden Mall was demolished.
s'more trivia -
The pond in question was never a natural pond.
The hole was made by the Utah Department of Transportation excavating gravel to use in building highway overpasses and railway overpasses when I-15 and the 20-21 St. highway to and from I-15 were built.
The pond is on the North side of the Ogden River before the Ogden River and Weber River converge.
more bits and pieces
When some of the River walks were built and I don't know whether it was Weber County or West Haven but great river land was seized from Mrs. Berrett to build the walk on her land by the river.
This was back before our eminent domain law was passed and government could seize any property from anybody for any project.
She has never been paid for her land. Her case has been in court for 3 years that I know of. Judge Hadley keeps playing games with her for the benefit of the County and cities involved.
What has happened to Mrs. Berrett is a disgrace. Not only did government seize her land but they built fences with gates on her land.
I know that Chuck Eddy and his Citizens Advocate group were trying to give her assistance in her fight.
Is this latest grand scheme to get concerned citizens sidetracked from the really critical issues like the sale of Mt. Ogden Park and building a gondola?
Or is it to divert attention about buying the Weber County bus site in order to give Frensenius more tax increment or cash incentives?
Never assume that Godfrey and the RDA Mafia do anything without a very good reason.
Well, I read the story this morning about the pond-in-the-borrow-pit, and I'm afraid I don't see the great danger to the public interest that others do.
The site is of no use to the public as is because of contamination. If a private developer wants to come in, buy the land around it needed to develop an entertainment venue, clean the place up and turn it into a he and we hope successful venue using his own investment capital or that of a consortion he puts together, what exactly is the problem? The article says that Ogden city contributions to all this would be limited to providing infrastructure [running in water and sewage lines, etc.] Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see a big problem with the development at this stage. Granted, it's early days, but at this point, based on the SE article, what's the objection?
Ogden could use a good outdoor concert venue. The downtown amphitheater may have been a good idea as a venue for community events and small civic presentations, but it seems to me... seemed to me when it opened... that it absolutely was not suitable even as a moderate-end admission-charged music venue [which I gather the Council and Mayor expected it would be]. I don't have the figures in front of me, but I don't think it has proven out as a pay-for-itself music venue for rock concerts, country music and such like. [If I'm wrong about that, I'd be happy to be corrected.]
Believe me, I understand and often share the suspicion that arises on WC Forum whenever Hizzonah opens his mouth in public [which suspicion his actions and frequent disembling have earned him]. But I think it can, and sometimes does, slip over into a kind of unbridled cynicism that might lead people to oppose the occasional good idea that comes from City Hall merely because it comes from City Hall. I'm afraid that may be happening this time. So, what exactly is the problem with the borrow-pit development idea described in the SE this morning? I'm afraid I don't see it.
Sounds like a good idear to me, that is IF the city doesn't get behind the eight ball once again.
The problem is that the Little Lord and his merry band of $100K + per year empty suits usually start out their major scams by telling us how much it aint gonna cost us. (Think High Tech Wreck where we were repeatedly promised we wouldn't be on the hook, then we were to the tune of $20 million)
Soooo, if this idea truly never ends up digging into our much abused wallets, I'm all for it.
One real eye opener is the projection of 260 events a year! Lets see, that's 5 events per week average, including Dec, Jan, Feb - the dead of winter. This in Ogden that may have five events a year right now.
Course now if they count weddings in the underground ball room maybe they are in the ball park with this way out number of 260 per year. But, how much dough does a wedding bring in?
If they are talking 260 concerts and stuff that normally happens in this kind of facility, then I want some of the same nitty gritty shit they're smokin.
If Matt Godfrey were a blind squirrel...
he'd never find even one acorn.
Ozboy
The only time of year that a wedding reception center could possibly book that many events is in the spring and early summer.
Even the most popular facilities for weddings in Salt Lake do not approach these kind of numbers.
Also if memory serves me there have been several wedding reception places around here that have struggled and went out of business. The Mansion House comes to mind.
It seems like the most popular one around the Ogden area is the old Barn in Roy (by the Ogden airport). Does any one know how many weddings they do a year?
As a competitive waterskier myself I was excited to read this article this morning. The slalom waterskiing, and wakeboarding, skijumping, trick skiing events I've been to are a big draw around the country this would TRUMP anything in the entire country. There is a huge demand for these types of lakes. The surrounding states of Utah each have several including Idaho, but Utah doesn't have a quality venue, So Rudi We all know you love to slam anything from Godfrey's court, but enough already. It is getting old.
"So Rudi We all know you love to slam anything from Godfrey's court..."
You catch on quick, kid. Boss Godfrey is the ultimate contrarian indicator. If Godfrey's for it, you can bet the farm on it being all f'd up.
This is something we adult townsfolk have learned painfully from experience.
Kelly Thomas,
wa.. wa..wa.. what a baby
Marlin...You made me laff outloud!
Hey...what will it take to drain and clean out a grabage dump? How safe is waterskiing, trick waterskiing, etc on such a body of water?
260 events a year?? Ozboy, somebody done smoked it all, ain't nothin' left for you or me.
Kelly
Have you been water skiing on this body of water?
Just driving by it, it seems awfully small for a water skiing venue. Is it long enough to get a decent slalom run for instance, and is it wide enough for turning around at high speed? It just doesn't seem much like Coral Gables to me. Not saying it won't work, just wondering. In fact it could be pretty cool if it did.
It does seem that there are a lot of people on this blog that are not too fond of the Mayor. However, if you look at his record and observe how he operates I think you might have to admit that they have a point.
Childish troll flame removed by administrator
Didn't you know that pond is going to be the grand reason why the project is going through.
They need a open sewage pit for that large area because there is no sewer lines in that neck of the woods, beside just think of all of those benches to provide room for the transities that need a place to bunker down in the night with the railroad tracks near by to bring them in. Plus if the entertainment stinks you can blame it on the old dump. Then yet you can bring some bread to feed the seagulls that will hoovering over head, when you get boared witht he entertainment. Like Air Supply, how fitting that would be to bring them in.
Again, I'm hard put to see what's wrong with developing the borrow pit as a water ski venue, provided the investment is done by private developers. I gather it's already being used for product testing. I don't see where the problem is.
As for the booking goals of the music venue site: seems a lofty goal for a concert site to meet, but hey, it's not my money going into development, nor [beyond the normal infrastructure support the city provides to all kinds of new development] is it public money. If the investors think they can make it work and are willing to put their money at risk to do it, and are not asking us to sell off city parklands to provide support services, like a monorail from the Intermodal Hub to the concert hall, I don't see a problem. If they are wrong about the market for concerts/events, their investment will fail. Businesses fail all the time, especially new businesses. But I presume the investors the developer hopes to attract are familiar with the concert promotion business [or hire consultants who are], and if they're convinced they can make it work, I don't see why the city should in any way try to impede the project.
Now, if things change down the road, my views would change as well. We all recall, or I hope we do, that the Standard Examiner editorial board kinda sorta endorsed the Mayor's gondola proposal on his assurances that building it would not cost Ogden taxpayers anything. [A claim that I notice has been strangely absent from Hizzonah's brayings about the Peterson/Gondola speculations of late]. Still, at this point, based on what we know so far, I don't see any particular reason to criticize the plans for either the waterski site or the concert venue.
you know that the mayor office is losing money like the golf course. so I propose that the mayor give the taxpaying citizens office of the mayor to the new proposed ampitheater owner, then he would have the staff that would really make a go of this project. and our streets dept is losing money also, so lets give them all the equiptment from the city so that it won't cost the developer any money either.
did you here bob geiger put in for the city council. now we can have the city's name changed to desente city. this way they can advertise legally on the city's web page.
Who is paying to clean up the pollution at this site? And in case you didn't know it, construction debri can and usually is contaminated with a lot worse stuff than you find in municipal garbage. That is one reason they don't let it be disposed of in regular city land fills.
Incidently that huge pile of debri from the old mall was all dumped illegally and remains so today.
Curm:
My initial reaction to the article and this thread was the same as yours. But upon further thought, I'm getting more and more skeptical. Here again we're seeing lofty promises that don't pass the laugh test. What motivation would the developer and/or the city administration have for making such promises? Seems quite likely that they're gonna ask the taxpayers for more than utility hookups, and the promises are in preparation for that. At the very least, let's be on our guard!
I wouldn't have a problem with this proposed development except for the statement that Ogden City would provide the infrastructure.
That could cost big dough for 50 acres.
Rudi,
It's the weekend of Sept. 11th and the best you can do is alot of negative heavy breathing about a project that covers up a landfill with a park, beautifies an entrance to Ogden and develops a historically polluted pond? All--supposidly--with very little cost to the city (...at this point..I know, I know).
This is the best you have to complain about? You must have alot of time and hatred on your hands. Are you between jobs?
In reading the article, Patterson says the city 'would LIKELY be' the significant cost of infrastructure. LIKELY??? What does that mean in dollars?
Also, no one connected to this project can be reached for comment.
I eacho the concerns about the safety of water that has been used as a dumping ground. My goodness...what a job to reclaim that pond!
I don't see how 260 concerts or plays could possibly be held there. THIS IS UTAH, FOLKS...LET
IT SNOW, LET IT SNOW, LET IT SNOW.
Did I read that the RR is nearby?
The SE says the whole venue will go back to the city.. What will that cost us?
Sorry to be a 'naysayer',. but, like the Peterson Plan....let's see something concrete...no pun intended.
Godfreyite operating procedure 13:
Attack the messenger.
The three G's* rule # 1:
Lie even if the truth is better.
* Three G's = Godfrey, Geiger, Greiner
I can diagnose what's ailing anonymous. The symptoms are easily recognizable for a medical professional like me.
He obviously suffers a serious and debilitating case of humor deficit disorder. He fails to appreciate the comedy factor of the strange conjunctions of waterskiing, concerts, wedding receptions and (bar-mitzahs?)... and a giant retractable clam-shell... and Nitty-Gritty Dirtband progeny... all assembled for our pleasure... on the shores of a tiny chemically-contaminated Ogden pond.
I recommend that he proceed immediately to the nearest emergency hospital facility, to seek treatment for a malfunctioning humorous....
/
/
/
/
/
i.e.: funny bone
p.s.: Don't bother thanking me. Just be grateful that I was able to make the diagnosis in time...
hey rudi,
where did you get my picture at. I want it back
Where does Godfrey get these bush league developers? Young Mr. McEuen, although ambitious, does not appear to have the background and experience one would desire in a key player involved in the success of a public private partnership.
DanS:
You wrote: At the very least, let's be on our guard!
Absolutely. At all times. This Mayor and Council or any other down the line.
Three G's rule # 2
The citizens are mushrooms,
keep them in the dark
and feed them bull shit.
From bar bands in Salt Lake to
thirty million dollar venue's in
Ogden!
This is typical of the Godfrey bush leaque mentality. The guy wouldn't recognize reality if it slapped him in the face.
As to where he got these guys? I would guess from his big time Hollywood connections. You know, the third rate "producer/floor covering" pal of his that is going to create a big time film and hub cap repair school right here in river city.
I've spoken with someone 'in the know' who is quite taken with this new project.
This person says the 'shell' will come over the top and close the walls...so even in inclement weather the entertainment can proceed.
This person says the 'garbage' is on the outside of the pond.
The city is only supposed to pay for infrastructure. these people have presented a PLAN...can you imagine???? How novel.
At any rate, it sounds interesting, and if it can be done without cost to the city, other than infrastructure, I'm willing to set aside all my skepticism at this point.
I DO want to hear the whole plan, investors, details, etc at a City Council meeting at which the public is listening.
I do wonder at the caliber of the entertainment if 260 bands, plays, whatever are to be booked.
While bringing new doodads and geegaws (oops, I meant Gondolas, and ponds, and things that go bump in the night) to Emerald City is nice, what is happening to our City Government taking care of water pressure, water quality, sewer lines, etc? I know those items aren't sexy, but they are essential for quality of life.
I do think the Hispanic Market is a wonderful idea. Olivera Street in Downtown LA has been highly successful for decades and includes a pedestrian market (see the list of vendors on their website) and serves as a central location for several civic events.
Ogdenlover, I've talked about Olvera Street many times and agree with you that it is successful. It's a tourist draw but also a place that Angelenos go. A fun place. However, I think ours (if it happens) should be international or multi cultural.
It would be fun to purchase foods in a shop or restaurant from other countries, and enjoy native dress and once in a while some entertainment.
I'm sure that we have other cultures besides Hispanic that could be interested in such an endeavor as business owners and customers.
I'm not sure about the Pond...waiting to see what is laid out for the public.
Whoever suggested looking at a plat map for 23rd street beat me to it. Have you done that already? A property may not be in Godfrey's name...a relative's??
BTW We watched the 9/11 tribute to the NYFD last nite. The documentary by the two French filmaker brothers. Heartwrenching.
It made us so proud of all our firefighters, and I know that Weber County firefighters assisted their brothers and the rest of the citizens. We just want to thank you for all you do. And thanks to our police also. You all put your lives on the line for the rest of us every day and this family is grateful.
I believe that Olivera street goes back a hundred and fifty years or so. That is where Los Angeles started before we stole the whole damn place from the Mexicans.
Its not like some political wonks thought it up and did an RDA. It has evolved over many many decades into what it is today. A combination market place for the local native Californians and a tourist trap for folks that don't want to go to Tijuana.
Oh yea, Olivera Street is next to Japan and China towns, both pretty trippy places themselves. Neither one created by a bunch of lame assed wanna be developer political hacks.
Ozboy:
Well, every historic street has a beginning someplace. If developers establish a successful Mercado in Ogden at 23rd and Monroe, and businesses begin to cluster around it, and the Hispanic inflow into Ogden continues, who knows? A hundred years from now, people may be talking about Ogden's "historic Mercado district." Will it happen? Beats me. But it might. Or it might fail. Or be monderatly successful and morph into something else equally, or more or less successful along the way. Cities are dynamic places, and constant demographic change is part of what makes, for some people, urban life interesting, vital, alive and [sometimes] challenging.
The Mercado certainly seems worth a shot to me, provided investors think it can succeed and are willing to invest in it, and provided it is well designed. But, as in all such developments, there will be losses along the way. I suspect the successful smallish Hispanic market at the corner of 25th and Monroe may be one.
Drifted a little off my main point, which was, simply, that Olivera Street's century plus history is not IMHO an argument against establishing a Hispanic market district in Ogden, particularly given what is projected to be a continuing signficant Hispanic in-migration. There is a shrine to Our Lady of Guadalupe now in the historic Cathoic church downtown which was built to serve European Catholics originally. I see it every Christmas when I and my family attend the annual Christmas choral concert whose singers are largely LDS. Ogden is getting to be a very interesting town to live in.
And becoming more interesting every year. What it lacks that other cities have manged to create, even mid-sized ones like Ogden, is an active street life at night downtown. With good transit between the Mercado development and 25th Street, the new development might help bring some life to Ogden's nighttime streets downtown. And that, from my POV, would be a major step in the rejuvenation of Ogden City.
With the arrival of Frontrunner, and the expected [some say already under way] growth of condo units and apartments downtown [provided a food market and some other open-late shops move in], Ogden may be on the edge of doing it.
Mr. Ryan McEuen presented his conceptual overview of the 21st Street Water Park and Amphitheater last Thursday at the Council's work meeting. Plans includes the kind of "L" shaped pond owned by UTA and the land that was used as a clean dump/green fill and owned by Randy Moulding. After the pond has been cleaned and free of any contaminates, UTA plans to donate it to Ogden City. It is Mr. Randy Moulding's intention to DONATE his 50 acres to Ogden City, for the purpose of creating a venue to benefit all the good townsfolk -- after he completes the site prep at his own expense and makes a large bowl for the amphitheater. He has no contamination problems. His site, which has been operated for about 20 years, has accepted only green waste and chemically-inert construction materials. Mr. Moulding is a community benefactor from the old school -- entirely community minded and pristine.
The amphitheater will be built so that it will serve as a venue for the world's biggest music stars and Broadway stage plays with cutting edge, state-of-the-art sound, projection and lighting systems. It will be built so that the back wall is glass and three stories high on the water's edge. It will have a clam like roof the can be opened to enclose all 25,000 seats, making it a year-round facility. It will be an elaborate recreational and entertainment venue that will facilitate concerts, sporting events, theatrical performances, and will accommodate private functions, such as corporate conferences and rentals, banquets, weddings, receptions, and other privately contracted events.
The pond is to be enlarged so that the length (east/west) is double what it is now. The Goode Ski Company plans to have water-skiing races/competitions. The rest of the park will be built to include an RV Park (40 stall minimum), Frisbee Golf, food booths and a beer garden. It abuts the Marriott Park, and an agreement is in the process where both cities will have access to the other's amenities.
Two great advantages it will have are: 1. It is near I-15 on and off ramps, and 2. The developer plans to also take advantage of FrontRunner and have tracks from and to the Intramodel Hub to the amphitheater so that guests can enjoy a relaxing ride to Ogden, jump on the connecting train to the amphitheater, enjoy the concert/show, return on the connector train, get back on the FrontRunner and return to Salt Lake, Sandy, Provo and never have to worry about the traffic jams that follow every event in SLC, or finding a parking place once they are there. It has the potential to bring people from hundreds of miles away to the concerts and shows. Northern Utah needs a place with a decent sound system -- the E-Center and the Delta Center are definitely lacking in that regards..
McEuen said that he is looking for investors to help with the project -- and the only thing that the City would be required to do is put in the necessary infrastructure.
I believe that this is a great and exciting opportunity for Ogden. We will be the benefactors of the generosity of some community-minded people that will evolve into a major drawing card for all kinds of family-oriented activities.
Councilwoman Jeske:
Thanks for filling in some of the details on the proposal. I am curious about the connecter rail link. How long will it be, do the developers own the right of way [or are the in the process of acquiring it] and who will own/operate the connecter rail link?
It sounds like an interesting
project. And this is the first I've heard of the rail link idea, which is interesting as well.
Am intrigued by "clamshell roof" part and would like to know more. A quick websearch revealed that the term "clamshell roof" is a very broad one, referring mainly to the dome-like shape.
An amphitheatre in Tampa Bay, for instance, has one, but it is not affixed to walls, hovering instead above the seats "to allow for cross breezes." This would not do well here for year round performances. Another example of a clamshell roof shows it firmly fixed to four walls.
Since this one will open and close, where will it go when opened? Will it stick straight up in the air or go down by the side, or retract into a wall in a sort of Dr. No observatory effect--you know, the one that is in two parts and slides open?
It is obvious you have never been to a Randy Moulding controlled West Haven Mayor and City Council meeting if you think he is "community minded".
Don't get carried away about his donating 50 acres until you get all the fine print
Curm
After reading your last post I went back and read OzBoy's.
I can't speak for Oz, but I sure didn't get the impression that he was saying that Olivera Street being a hundred plus years old was any indication that this project wouldn't work in Ogden.
What I got from his comment was that it was illogical to compare the two, or predict success based on Olivera Street. In fact I think he also said he thought the idea was very good and he hoped it would happen.
He also seemed to be saying that projects like this are not created by dumb politicians but by market forces and free enterprise.
Curm
After reading your last post I went back and read OzBoy's.
I can't speak for Oz, but I sure didn't get the impression that he was saying that Olivera Street being a hundred plus years old was any indication that this project wouldn't work in Ogden.
What I got from his comment was that it was illogical to compare the two, or predict success based on Olivera Street. In fact I think he also said he thought the idea was very good and he hoped it would happen.
He also seemed to be saying that projects like this are not created by dumb politicians but by market forces and free enterprise.
Dorrene, thanx for the details.
Skeptic: Can YOU provide details about Moulding controlled City Council metings? I'm intrigued.
BTW..it is NOt OlIvera St...It's OLVERA Street.
OzBoy" Appears to me that WA Blvd IS China town..just count the Chinese restaurants.
Ted:
I read it the same way you did, pretty much. Just reacted to it a little differently. And did a little thinking out loud at the keyboard as it went on. Not a biggie.
Dorrene:
I don't mind sounding skeptical, In the last 10 years or so. it seems that the only reason why any developers want to be involved in Ogden is to see how far they can take advantage of Ogden tax payers to make themselves richer.
There is a saying that has been repeated by out own State Attorney General "If it seems to good to be true, it probably is”.
I mean who would spend 30 million for this project. When other projects that come to town wants the taxpayers to pick up the tab when the dust finally settles down.
Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.
Very good question, Concerned Citizen. Who, indeed?
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