A Weber County Forum Tip o' the Hat goes out today to Freshman Senator John Greiner, who had the sack yesterday to stand up against the Right Wing Socialist parochial school cult.
Jon righteously voted "NO" yesterday to the neoCon "school voucher plan," , i.e. HB148, which will ultimately empower elitist religious schools, promote British/Brahmin-style social stratification, and relegate the "lower classes" in Utah to the educational gutter.
Sooner or later these sappy religious wingnut voucher wackos will have to conclude that we all live on this planet together, or the "lower classes" will one day soon be storming the gates of those who would think they can live in a cultural "Beaver Cleaver" bubble during the upcoming 21st century.
We heartily congratulate Senator Jon Greiner for his good sense, even though he came out on the short side of the vote -- this time, at least.
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54 comments:
the only reason he voted no was he knew that it would go though with out him.
Actually I was in favor of this bill. I could see where this bill could help several kids in various situations. Kids that need a little more one on one help, or kids that need more structure in their lives, or kids that are trying to get away from being bullied or kids that are trying to get away from friends that they know are a bad influence on them.
I was one of those kids and it made a real difference in my life to be able to leave a bad situation behind and so to speak start over.
I know that this bill causes people to think of this as catering to an elitist education which it might be for some. But for most parents there are still additional costs, in other words financial sacifice and they are still willing to do it because they are trying to see there kids succeed. You can't fault a parent for wanting their kids to succeed. I say go for it, if by moving some kids into this type of program they will succeed as opposed to leaving them in a program where they are failing. Both the child and society would benefit.
I don't know what Greiner was thinking when he voted against this bill but I know that it was popular to oppose within some groups, mainly those that are afraid that it will take away from regular school funding.
I would have a lot more respect for Greiner if he would rethink his vote in support of HB233 that deals with zoning. This is the bill that Dorrene Jeske was suggesting in the previous blog (dated Feb8) that we call our legislators to voice our opposition to. This bill would do away with our ability to control growth in our foothills or for that matter anywhere that developers want to develop. This is a bad bill and is opposed by some of our more respected construction companies, The League of Cities and Towns and anyone that really thinks of all of the consequences of this bill. It opens the door to a lot of potential law suits down the road and potentially unsafe construction.
The idea of school vouchers really gets me chapped.
Mrs. Monotreme and I have no children. Yet, I don't begrudge the money I've paid in taxes over the years, because I believe that universal education is a public good, as tangible in its effect as roads or trash pickup.
I acknowledge that public schools have problems.
Still and all, I'm unalterably opposed to school vouchers.
I'm no attorney, nor do I play one on TV, but it seems to me that a voucher plan transfers my tax dollars through the state to benefit a private party.
I don't want my tax dollars going to support someone else's kids going to a private school. I want my tax dollars spent on the commonweal.
In fact, the whole concept of a commonweal, so familiar to our founding fathers, seems to have been completely and totally lost in this "me first, last and only" world we're living in.
It's a sad day, in my opinion.
On Rep. Greiner [R-Godfrey Administration].
He gets credit with me for voting "nay" on the voucher bill. When my kids were starting school in Louisiana's grimly poor schools, we started them off in a private school [non-religious] to make sure they got solid in reading, etc. Could only afford it for five years each, but we did it. And we did not expect taxpayers to foot the bill for us. Financed it out of some savings and loans. Public schools were available, paid for by taxes [including ours] and we choose not to use them. We did not expect other taxpayers to shell out for our decision.
Greiner's vote was correct. And as for the claim that he voted that way only because he knew the bill would fail: won't wash. The vote may well come back to haunt him when/if he runs for reelection. [Because the voucher crowd will be back to increase the amounts they get, starting next session. Count on it.] He couldn't know the consequences as he voted. He gets kudoes for this one.
He's still on record, recall, voting "Nay" on Neil Hansen's [D-Ogden] ticket quota bill, and anon above says he's voting "Aye" on HB233, which is pretty much what we'd expect from the Senator from the Godfrey Administration, que no? [Have to admit, though, I have not yet heard from Greiner or seen a press account of his voting on HB233; relying on anon's report.]
I agree with Anonymous on the voucher bill. Don't forget that parents who send their kids to private schools are also paying taxes for other kids to attend public schools.
Their taxes are not suspended.
Did anyone else in Greiner's district get his questionnaire today?
How we feel about the voucher is on that questionnaire.
Is this standard fare from all the legislaators, or did he make this up himself?
Observer:
No questionaire, not by mail or on-line. Interesting that you got the questionaire after he cast his vote on the issue. Yup, John Greiner [R-Godfrey Administration], just as we suspected....
As for the taxes matter: wrong. ALL of us pay taxes to provide public schools for ALL Utah children, whether we have children or not. Those parents you mention who want the voucher are paying public taxes to have public schools available for their children. And those schools are available for their children. That they choose not to make use of them should not entitle them to shunt taxes collected for the purpose of supporting public schools to their own private benefit. That no small part of those re-directed public taxes will go to support religious schools makes the problem even worse.
Does this mean Steve Huntsman or anyone eles that Home schools their dozen kids will receive $36000 a year? Nice income for a stay at home mom.
I do not support vouchers OR public schools.
Public schools are a miserable failure.
As Americans we have the choice to pursue whatever education we want for our children. My kids were some of the first to enroll in charter school in Arizona. I was glad to have them relieved of the overbearing meddling and workload that have become a part of the public school system. The workload is there simply to provide evidence they are doing something for the kids. I was never subjected to this kind of modern workload in the Catholic school I attended in Southern California. That school was attended in those days by what is now apparently a lot of natural overachievers. Most went on to public schools where we all led the class.
This was in the days before vouchers, my parents exercised choice and sacrifice and entrusted the Catholic nuns to enforce intellectual structure. I could do without the old timey religion but the discipline and structure are a good thing for kids in those formative years to get through the 3 r's. These days, most kids or young adults can't read and comprehend a full book, handwrite in cursive, nor calculate beyond simple single column math. They also are obese, clumsy, inconfident, unwilling to risk face and physical discomfort in the pursuit of adventure and new skills. This is the parents fault. Tough luck kids, your parents are losers, you inherit.
Tec,
We were not a Catholic family, but my parents sent me to a Catholic school for the first grade. I didn't attend kindergarten.
I clearly recall the discipline and structure you mention. We obeyed!! Or we were smacked. Thank heaven, I was the nun's pet...otherwise I would have gotten a few whacks with a yard stick!
I can still 'see' the pictures in my reading book....mother bringing home the new baby from the hospital (mom dressed in hat, high heels and coat)...daddy in a suit and hat!
I'm so grateful that I had that great start. I loved reading and I credit that Catholic education.
We moved away, and so I was enrolled in public schools after that.
Our legislators said 'only about $9 mil goes to the vouchers.' Considering what a large piece of the education fund pie the public schools receive, that's not very much.
Why do public school kids have HOURS of homework almost every day? These kids are in band, sports, drama and community activities, and yet they are burdened with work that should have been taught in their classes.
I had very little homework when I was growing up. A few math problems...some reading, etc. Not HOURS! What are the teachers doing during the day? Our children and grandchildren put in up to 14 hours or more keeping up with homework, student council, band, sports, etc.
T'aint right. Please don't respond that these kids CAN get this work done at school...and that they are just slackers. Not so. These are honor roll kids. That's why they are so conscientious.
It's like having two jobs!
If schools weren't busy with our kids psyches, self-esteem, sex education, mediation techniques, and other 'social engineering' junk, the kids would be able to read, write in cursive, be respectful and learn!
I'm in favor of 'uniforms'...same color slacks and shirts for boys and girls. Then we wouldn't have to worry about 'gang colors' and what the most 'popular' kids are wearing. Also, pants that have the crotch to the knees and bare bellies hanging out would be forbidden, and self respect would rise.
We volunteer as reading mentors in the elemenary school....So sad to see 3rd, 4th, 5th grade kids struggling with Primary books...like "Little Red Hen".
Well, my soapbox is splintering...so, I'll jump off.
Trentelman, Real Salt Lake, Veterans, and our "Support Our Troops" Utah Republican Legislature
Good column this morning in the SE by Charlie Trentelman. He notes that the [Republican dominated} Utah legislature has been unable to find $20 for a veterans nursing home in N. Utah [the need for which seems to be unchallenged]. And yet "after precisely three days of looking at a fiscally questionable proposal, the Legislature found $35 million [for Real Soccer, a private money-losing company], which is $15 million more than the vest want, but buld a soccer stadium...." Trentelman goes on to quote Ogden Rep. Neil Hansen {D-Ogden]who "rightly called it corporate welfare."
Hmmmmm.... the Republican House and Senate and our Republican governor quickly find $35 million in public funds to shore up a money-losing private corporation, but they couldn't find $20 million for a veterans' nursing home in N. Utah. [Gee, isn't it the Republican Party that keeps going around claiming it "supports our troops" and "supports the military" while the other party doesn't? Yeah, I thought so.]
Trentelman is organizing a vets soccer game. The nursing home, he writes "would be a huge benefit to our aging veterans. Admittedly, risking their lives for our freedom can't compare with a good head shot on goal, but it's the best they've got." And so, Trentelman asks, "is soccer what it taks? Let's get a game up guys. My place [outside SE building at the BDO], Monday, 4 p.m. Pop a pain pill, grab your spikes, don't forget to take your digitalis. And try to put on a good show. It's what the Legislature pays for."
It's a hell of a column. You can find it here.
Tec:
On education. You over generalize. Some public schools are appallingly bad. Some are pretty good. Some are excellent. It varies tremendously, even sometimes within the same school district. There are in the public system excellent dedicated effective teachers [relatively few], pretty good overall teachers [many], not very good teachers [too many] and appallingly bad teachers [some].
"It" [the public schools] work in many areas, don't in many others. The solution, it seems to me, is to improve the non-working schools, not to junk the whole system. The cost [nationwide] of continuing on with as many failing schools as we have are substantial [in terms of crime, poverty, and all the ills attendant on both of those.] The cost of crippling the public schools even further are mind-numbing. [Yes, pun intended.]
As for charter schools, in most states charter schools are public schools, just ones that have been given a pass on many of the standards, and mandated requirements of general public schools in return for demonstated improved performance by students measured however schools in that state are measured. The rationale is that charter schools encourage experimentation in ways of educating students [which is good], that some will succeed, and so provide models that can be applied to other public schools, and some will fail and fall by the wayside. The jury, nationwide, is still very much "out" on the charter school experiment. That they produce on the whole better results than traditional public schools do has not been demonstrated.
The news in Ogden has, over the past couple of years, been filled with stories of troubled charter schools, etc. I do note that strong supporters of in trouble charter schools seem to be arguing that "if we only were properly funded we would succeed." Which, come to think of it, is exactly what public school teachers have been saying for years. Imagine that.
I know this is off on a tangent but everyone has to read Sunday's comics, specifically "Dilbert".
If this doesn't sound like the Godfrey form of city budget management. It would be funnier if it wasn't so reflective of how the Ogden City administration is managing our city funds.
To all those that think that the voucher bill is bad, I can only say that I'm all about saving the child irrespective of the method. Caring parents sometimes have a better feel for how their child will respond than do educators that only have one product within their school to offer, i.e. what form of teaching or structure works best for their child. Just like one political party doesn't fit all people, neither does one method of teaching. I see this as less of a political issue than a issue of solving an educational problem one child at a time.
If the parents are willing to go the extra effort to ensure that their children succeeds then I say lets help them. These are the same types of parents that will sit down at night and help their children with the homework rather than suggest that that is the responsibility of the school system.
To suggest that the vouchers takes money away from the school systems in that a seat was set aside for a specific student that is now using a voucher doesn’t hold true. It would be true if the need for those seats wasn’t growing. If anything this student enrolled else where might defray some of the cost of building a new or as many new schools. My experience has also shown that some of the private schools are as successful and in some cases more successful with educating students with less money than the public schools. Thus this may actually end up saving the people of Utah money, i.e. more bang for the buck.
Maybe the bill needs to be tweaked, maybe the vouchers should have limits on the dollars allowed to be provided or income caps on eligibility but what ever it is, I'm still for them. Other states have found that these vouchers have helped to raise the level of kids succeeding in the system. We as a society need to invest now for the success of our kids or else we will be the one to pay for that lack on our part in the future.
This is a letter that I recived from a voter in my district and the point is well said...
Dear Representatives,
I am a parent very concerned about the possibility of School Vouchers.
Let me share with you what has happened at my school since school
choice has become more readily available. I live in Ogden City. My
children go to T.O. Smith Elementary School. I have 7 children ranging
in age from 5yrs to 25yrs of age. I have been involved in the same
elementary school for almost 20 years as a parent. Let me tell you how
things have changed in those 20 years.
As I am certain you are aware, Ogden is becoming an increasingly
diverse community. My children are now in the minority at our
elementary school, and consequently, white Utah families do not want to
attend. I see many families in our area using school choice either to
attend a charter school, or another elementary school in the district.
Most in this area cannot afford private school. Interestingly enough,
it is not usually after these families have attended T.O. Smith, it is
before that they choose to attend another school. Their decision is
based on rumor and appearance. They hear that teachers teach in
Spanish(not true). They hear we cater to the Hispanic population (not
true). They hear the students are rough and they are afraid. Many of
our children do come from disadvantaged homes. However, my children
have never complained about being afraid, or threatened. In my
volunteering at the school, I am continually impressed with the
courtesy of most students. The biggest challenge my children have
faced since these changes have occurred, is the lack of high achieving
students to help motivate and challenge them. Children benefit from
rubbling shoulders with all types of individuals.
For many of these years, we have had the same wonderful teachers. When
some left they were replaced with equally qualified teachers. It is
not because of poor teaching people have left our community. It is
because of the change in population. Until we can fix people's
attitudes, and prejudices against people of different cultures and
socioeconomic levels, I believe school choice and vouchers will only
cause segregation. We will create schools where children will not want
to be, but will not be able to leave. Waiting lists and qualifications
will become too long and ridged. Schools will compete for the higher
achiever as a way to boost, and boast test scores. I believe this
already happens. Choice will be taken away, not because it is not
available, but because it will become so political. Parents who are
willing to stay and fight the battle in schools of diversity will soon
tier of the fight and move their children also. We will have an even
greater divide in opportunities for the rich and poor. Those divisions
are not good for our society. We all benefit when all of our children
have opportunities for a good education.
Our school district recently went through boundary changes. People are
very vocal about who they do not want their children associating with.
We have also watched this same scenario play out in Davis County.
Choices are not usually made because teachers and faculty are better,
but rather because population of students are "better". Rarely have I
seen people move from our school community because the teaching was
poor. A few honest people will admit this.
Please consider that while you give some parents the opportunity for
choice with vouchers. You leave schools with dedicated teachers,
labeled as failures, because their challenges are greater. Their extra
work and effort rarely compensates for the problems caused by segregation.
Thank you for taking the time to read this letter. I hope you will
sincerely consider the points I have tried to express.
Why isn't anyone talking about the real issue which is the sad state of teaching that public schools have deteriorated to?
We have been so concerned about giving everyone an equal education that we have watered down the curriculum to take care of the student with the lowest level of ability.
This strata of student includes the illegal children who can't speak English. So we hold the whole class back to take care of these children and also the children who aren't really motivated to learn.
I have been though this with my own children. Only in the 70's it was all about the new math and the new everything which threw out the basics that really gave children an education.
Today the professional educators no longer teach basic math skills such as memorization of multiplication tables.
Have you seen that there is no more handwriting taught in school so that the teenager don't even know how to hold a pencil and are developing callouses on certain fingers because they have never been taught how to hold a pencil.
The emphasis is on sports and non-basic educational skills. Only we have done away with PE classes so that only a few qualify to do sports.
Until the public school system gets back to basics I am for school vouchers which weren't available when I needed them for my children.
Grandmama,
I agree with the need to get back to the basics; reading, writing and arithmetic.
No need for all the specialized sports or the significant emphasis of varsity, junior varsity and sophomore teams they just cost a lot of money and benefit a relative few as most students that are involved in one sport are also the same students involved in the other sports. Let’s get every one involved and exercised with intramural teams that exist with all grades within the same school. This will involve more of the student body and cost us taxpayers less as well as distract the students less from what the real reason as to why they are going to school; to get an education.
Neil,
I have sympathy for the writer of the letter that you received, but all schools are in a flux right now relative to this issue or other issues. I do think though, that if there is a mass exit from that school then the student to teacher ratio should fall commensurate to that exit. This would allow more one on one teaching and with that more likely better students achievement levels within that school if the teachers are not the problem as she suggests and as I believe. I can assure you that private schools do not necessarily attract the best students nor do their students necessarily have significantly better test scores as compared to public school students on national tests. It can a lot of time simply be a better fit for the student as far as teaching technique.
Student achievement is more a function of the parent’s emphasis as to the importance of education and of the individual student’s ability to learn than it is do to where they go to school. Understanding of course, that the student must be able to learn under the system that is being used to educate that student. That is where I feel that the voucher system comes into play; it allows the student to be better matched up to the system that will work for that student.
Rep. Hansen:
Thanks for posting a most interesting letter. Having for one term volunteered one day a week as a teachers' aide at Dee Elementary, I can support from my own observations much of what the letter writter had to say about the quality and dedication of teachers there, and the manners of the general student population, a good number of whom were Latino students.
However, back in the Southeast, the phenomenon of whites abandoning schools once the population of minorities [read "blacks"] at a school hit a certain percentage was at least honestly called "white flight." [The school boards spoke openly of that percentage as "the tipping point" and shuttled kids around desperately trying to prevent its being reached sometimes. Which of course simply accellerated parents pulling kids out of the system. One of my children wound up attending three different schools in a three year period.]
Racism was certainly a key movtive in what happened, but it was not the only motive. Schools often were very poor, low performing, and [as often happened], the least experienced teachers [since assignments were more of less by seniority] generally ended up at the predominently black schools, and the more experienced teachers opted for the predominantly white schools with the higher percentages of higher-achieving students and lower rates of "problem" students [those two categories were often very closely correlated with socio-economic class]. Which meant some parents were put in a horrible dilemma: (a)accept for their children what was in some [not all] cases demonstrably inferior schools and educations by leaving them in the public system or (b) pull them out and send them to a private [nearly, or in the case of what were called "segregation academies", exclusively white schools]. From what I saw, it would be as foolish, and wrong, to denounce all who moved their children out as being motivated by racism as it would be to claim that all who moved their children out were motivated exclusively by educational concerns.
Some of the moving, though, was clearly mostly race-based. Some parents pulled kids out of the public schools and put them into hastily organized, often-church based seg-academies where the education they got made the most marginal of the public schools look like Harvard by comparison. I recall one parent, who moved her child to a church segregation academy pulling him out almost immediately [middle school] when at the first parents night, she met her son's science teacher. He was a banker from the mid-West until the previous year when, he said "God called me to teach chemistry and physics here." He was taking some correspondence courses in science, but had no other training than" God's call." The son was back in the public schools the next week.
The solution to the problems your letter-writing constituent laid out, is to improve the public schools, not to syphon off resources into private schools and church schools and what have you. It truly matters that children learn in a racially diverse environment. It matters a great deal. All of my children, for example, are far more at ease among African-Americans [they all had friends who were] that I am afraid I will ever be. Exclusively a result of their school environment. And in this country, that's a very important result. Worth for a parent abandoning the chance at a good education? No. But a very important collateral benefit for the nation as a while of racially-diverse public schools? Absolutely.
Thanks for standing up for public education, Rep. Hansen. Keep swinging. You're campaigning for what was, and what I think, hope, believe, still is the best in the American tradition.
Curm,
For someone that constantly tries to give the benefit of the doubt to all sides of an issue; I find you very opinionated on this issue.
I also sense that you think that this is a class or race issue and in your mind it may well be but to a struggling student that can't learn under the teaching method that are being employed in the school system that he/she is attending, it's all about their individual effort to succeed.
I personally can relate with this torture of not succeeding and developing self doubts as to your own capabilities. It wasn't until I was able to enter a different system that employed different teaching techniques that I began to succeed.
I ask you to think of this not as a class or race issue but as an individual issue where someone just wants the chance to succeed. This is the other side of the argument.
Anon:
The point I was trying to make is, that from what I've seen [two states now], it is not exclusively either a class isuue or a race issue or an education-only issue. It's all of those things at once.
Which is why I noted circumstances sometimes leave parents with a difficult moral, ethical, parental and financial choice to make. And they act, most of them in the best interests, as they see them, of their children. I'm hard put to criticize anyone doing that. It's what nearly all of use have done, are doing and would do for our children.
I had a friend who pulled his kids out. At a school board meeting, when they were explaining that they were going to change attendence zones again [under court order] to meet racial balancing standards, he rose and told the members this: "My children's education isn't an experiment. You can't get to the end of it and say well, that didn't work, and then run the experiment again hoping for a different result. You only get one chance. Can you tell me, now, tonight, where my two children will go to school next fall? " The answer from the Board was "no" [because they could not assign students until fall enrollments were nearly complete, so they could be distribubed by race in such a way as to minimize one race schools.] His reply: "Well, the private schools can." And he marched out. He was right.
But again, the solution seems to me to be not to use public funds to subsidize a second private school system, many of which will be religious schools [and yes, that bothers me, subsidizing religious education with public funds], and if experience in many many other states is any guide, "voucher" public funds will also end up sending kids to educationally marginal schools substantially less competent at educating them than the public schools.
My point, anon, is that the matter is not as starkly good/bad as I think you paint it. It is much much more complex than that.
I'm not challenging your experience in the least. But we need to recognize as well that there are children who were in private schools doing badly who returned to public schools and did well. The reverse of your experience. [And yes, I knew some of them.] It's just not as simple as you seem to think. Or so it seems to me.
A host of other problems come with subsidizing private schools. Like grade inflation. And yes, it's a problem. When Mommy and Daddy are shelling out X thousand a year for their child to attend Excellence Academy, they don't want to hear that little Johnny is getting a D in science or a D in Math or even a C in English. They're not paying for mediocre or poor grades. To keep the clients happy, private schools sometimes [not always, not everywhere, but sometimes] run the grades up. Have to keep the customer satisfied. I knew a teacher at a very toney one in the town I used to live in, the most expensive private school in the city. He was summoned at the end of the term and told to raise the final grades he was filing significantly. [They weren't horrendous, just mostly Cs not As.] He asked why, and was told by the Headmaster that the parents weren't paying for Cs. He refused. The school administratively raised the grades. He quit.
So it's not as simple, I think, on many levels, as your post implies.
Curm,
I appreciate your willingness to admit that not all kids are moved to private schools for class or race reasons but you lost me totally on your last comment suggesting grade inflation. There is grade inflation in the public schools as well.
As I admitted earlier I struggled in the school system, the public school system to be specific. I flat could not read until the eleventh grade but was passed from second grade all the way to eleventh grade before a teacher intervened to help me. I shouldn’t have made it past third grade with the reading skills that I had but I was and I’ve heard of similar stories from other adults that had the same thing happen to them and I’ve seen it with kids that I know today.
Private schools are not necessarily “Excellence Academy” and that is the part of this issue that you don’t get. Some people go for the opportunity to get smaller class sizes for a more one on one education, some for a different teaching style, some for the structure that exists in a private school and others to get away from a specific group that is a bad influence or that are bullies. Yes to some there is that elitist attitude but I think today you’d find that attitude in the minority or at only a limited number specific schools. More than likely vouchers wouldn’t do much good in those systems anyway as those systems tend to be just as elitist in who they will admit.
As for the religious connection, all I can say is that religion, no matter which one, is not something bad to be exposed to. Religion forms the basis for all of our laws and should provide us with a standard by which we should live our lives by my way of thinking. Our kids today in Ogden have the choice to attend seminary in high school do they not?
I was told by a legislator that he supported the "Voucher" concept and didn't see anything wrong with tax dollars going to private schools because competition meant that the public schools would have to improve their product. On the other hand, I have had school administrators say that just losing the weighted pupil unit that the State pays to the school district for each student in school has hurt them in many ways when a student goes to one of the charter schools. There are pros and cons to this issue.
But, Curmudgeon, I have to disagree with you that the private schools raise the student's grades without cause. I took one of our sons and placed him in a private school when he started kindergarten in 1970, because of the experience we had had with that same kindergarten teacher and our second son. I don't know what went on in that classroom, but there definitely was a problem, because he "sat" for one whole year and did nothing! His first grade teacher called me to see what was going on with him because she was having problems getting him to do anything. I was not about to go through that with another son. I found the education that our third son received in the private school was far superior to what our older two sons had received from the public school system. We had to enroll our oldest son in a "Sylvan" type school to bring him to grade level in reading. When this center tested him, we had them test our youngest son who was reading at the end of his kindergarten year in the private school. He was one full year ahead of the public school system because he was reading at the level of a student at the end of the first grade. He had also learned to play the recorder which upset his oldest brother because he was just learning to play the recorder in the FOURTH grade.
I would love to see the public schools improve their curriculum, but class size plays a huge part in the success of the average student. Our oldest son's first grade teacher didn't even know his name when I took the Easter treat to the class as room mother, and she told me that she 36 students and didn't have time to treat her students as individuals. It's situations like this that many average students get lost and if they don't have parents to step in and fill in where the public schools have failed, that student struggles all through school and possibly all through his life. Our oldest son to this day doesn't like to read which I think is a travesty -- reading opens the whole world to one, rich or poor. When I get feeling like something is missing in my life, I just curl up with a good book for a few hours or a day and then everything is fine in my life again because I was able to escape for a short time and visit new places even though I didn't leave the house.
I don't think vouchers are going to solve the problems with public education. Until the federal education committee, state and local school boards look at education differently, find what is needed to make it so the students WANT TO LEARN, love school so much that they are eager to be at school, and take the steps to correct these problems, parents, who care, will continue to look for ways to better educate their children, and if they can get help, I'm sure they will push for it.
We're just looking in the wrong direction with the vouchers to improve education.
I inadvertantly received some eye-opening information today: HB 233, Environmentally Restricted Zoning, comes from nowhere else than the Ogden City Administration! Godfrey is taking no chances to ensure that Chris Peterson will be able to develop his 400 homes in our foothills. I can't wait until November when we will be rid of this scheming, conniving snake - Godfrey!
I wonder if Rep. Michael T. Morley is also related to Godfrey and that's how the administration got him to sponsor this bill. You know that Sen. Scott Jenkins is related to the mayor, and he was the sponsor of SB 229, Civil Service Commission, last year. And of course this year Godfrey has Greiner that he can strong arm to push for his bills.
Anon:
On this --- "Private schools are not necessarily “Excellence Academy” and that is the part of this issue that you don’t get." --- we disagree, at least in so far as my "not getting it." As I think I noted, private schools range all over the lot from excrable to excellent and at every stop inbetween. Only meant to suggest that "private schools" as a publically-supported option sometimes reproduce exactly the failings of public schools [like grade inflation] and so offer no panacea. And they can, and in places do [the "Excellence Academies"] create the impression, occasionally justified, of selling grades [i.e. guaranteeing very high averages to children enrolled in them so they can apply to colleges and for scholarships with very high averages.]
What you ran into, which used to be called in the east at least, "social promotion" was a great problem in public schools and accounted [in my view] for no small part of the decline the public perceived in public education. To over simplify, but not by much, when a disproportionate number of "held back" [for poor grades] students were from one race or ethnicity, the school ran the risk of being charged with racism. "Social promotion" [i.e. promoting children purely on the basis of age rather than having demonstrated mastery of age-appropriate education] was the way out. Unfortunately, it all but guaranteed [as you know] that students would continue to "fail" and be promoted again and again. Where the knowledge they didn't pick up at a grade-appropriate level was cumulative --- like reading or math --- it meant they found themselves after two or three such "social promotions" being given books they could not read and facing math instruction that might as well have been in Greek.
Social promotion seems to have fallen out of favor, at least to some extent now, and that is a very good thing. However, it is sneaking back in disguise as concern for "graduation rates." Much emphasis now on increasing the graduation rates for public school children [meaning HS graduation rates.] This is not necessarily a bad thing. Ideally we'd like every school child to graduate with a HS diploma. It is however a very bad thing when schools begin to treat the graduation rate per se as a measure of their success rather than graduations that reflect the children having actually received [and achieved] a high school education. Too often now [and I don't know the extent to which this may be a problem in Utah; my experience with this is mostly from another state] the goal is to arrange a diploma, regardless of whether the student involved has in fact received a HS education. That's what all this national-mandated testing is supposed to address.
Sadly, I am afraid the same tendency to confuse "receiving a diploma" with "receiving an education" is raising its head in our universities and colleges too. Administrators view with alarm graduation rates considered to be low, and hold conferences and commission studies on "how to improve the graduation rate at XYZ university." I would be a whole lot happier if all those studies and conferences and such like thought it their mission instead to discover "how to improve education at XYZ university" --- doing that, it seems to me, would automatically improve the graduation rate. But focusing on the graduation rate separate from the quality of the education delivered runs a great risk of boosting the former by subtle grade inflation, dilution of standards, etc. We shall see.
On the religious point: Not arguing that children shouldn't be exposed to religious training. Just not in a government school by government employees [aka public school teachers]. The guarantee of religious freedom for all of us, as the Founders [who understood history, and studied it as a guide to constructing the new American constitution] lies in keeping the government out of the business of teaching religion in any form to any body. That's parents' job, and churches' job, not the government's. Ever.
You also wrote that "Religion forms the basis for all of our laws." Sorry, Anon, but that is simply not true and never has been since the Founding.
Debbie:
You wrote "There are pros and cons to this issue." Couldn't agree more.
You wrote: "But, Curmudgeon, I have to disagree with you that the private schools raise the student's grades without cause." Didn't say that, Debbie. I said some do. Not all, not everywhere, not necessarily even most. But some do.
You wrote: "class size plays a huge part in the success of the average student. " Couldn't agree more. [I believe Utah has one of the highest, if not the highest, class size averages in the nation.]
You wrote: "We're just looking in the wrong direction with the vouchers to improve education." Couldn't agree more.
You wrote: "I inadvertantly received some eye-opening information today: HB 233, Environmentally Restricted Zoning, comes from nowhere else than the Ogden City Administration!" Debbied, can you provide a source for this? All press reports locate the bill in the problems of a single developer in Draper who couldn't convince the city that land he wanted to build on was safe, so he turned to a state legislator to introduce the bill. If you have a source for what you heard, I would very much like to know what it is. [I am still wondering, by the way, if Ogden City's paid lobbiest in the legislature has been told to weigh in on this bill... either for or against. That would be interesting to know too.]
It is very interesting to read what readers of this forum had to say in response to their experience that they have encountered in the public schools, however, I cannot blame the problems themselves to the public school teachers that are trying their best to meet the demands of a much diversified class room especially here is the Ogden Area. My own personal experience with the public school by them can be very frustrating.
However, I too had personal experience with my children education in the public schools, my children wasn’t learning. Then I went through a divorce. Several years later I remarried and now have a son from this union with a new wife. Those first sets of children are no longer in the public schools and two of them had dropped out and the other two had done ok. Now this is were it starts to get real interesting. My youngest child is now in the 1st grade and is an honor student. Do I credit this achievement not alone to the teachers, no? However they do play a very big role in his education. Where I contribute the big difference is my new wife. She is very consistence with him in his education from talking to the teacher and reading with him every night and making sure his homework is done and she is very clear about that I get fully involved in his school programs and projects.
The bottom line is this. Your family and spouse is what makes or breaks whether your child succeed in his education. If you have a spouse that is dedicated and wants to ensure the best education for their child it will happen. If your interest is only mediocre so will your children’s education as well.
The voucher system will never properly address the real problem only dedicated parents can.
Curm,
Just like last week, I must break off the conversation to take care of other matters. Hopefully we can continue this discussion on the voucher program at a later date.
In the mean time you and I, as well as everyone else, should probably get up to speed on HB 233 and where it stands within the process of becoming a state law.
We need to determine if there really is a local connection and we need to make sure that our local State Legislators know that we oppose this legislation. We should encourage all residents to call their State Legislators to voice their concerns with this House Bill.
From what I’ve read this is truly bad law making and it definitely would not work in our mutual interest in trying to protecting our open space from our Mayor Godfrey’s intentions.
Curmudgeon, to answer your question about my comments about HB 233. A local legislator told a friend of mine that he had discussed HB 233 with Mark Johnson and told him that he would not vote for it. We may have been wrong in saying that the bill came from the administration, but I believe that we are right in thinking that they support it and are working to get it passed. Why would Mark Johnson be soliciting support for HB 233 if the administration weren’t lobbying for it?
debbie:
"Why would Mark Johnson be soliciting support for HB 233 if the administration weren't lobbying for it."
Very good question. Again I wonder if Ogden's paid professional lobbiest has weighed in on this, one way or the other....
Thanks for the update.
Anon:
OK. Enjoyed the exchange, for which thanks.
Though it seems you are allowing real life to interfere with blogging. Somebody needs to talk to you about your priorities.... [grin]
Debbbie,
Thank you for your info and update on HB233.
Remember the game show, "Who Do You Trust?"...Well, who can we trust in the Godfrey admin??
You raise the correct question when you ask why would Mark Johnson be pushing it if it isn't coming from Godfrey?
I think that whole building is crawling with snakes. And, it seems that the legislature has a few slithering around there too.
Has anyone talked to or emailed Greiner? Get a response? What was the tone? Someone I know rec'd a very rude arrogant email..more than one!
Anonymous, you said, "I cannot blame the problems themselves to the public school teachers that are trying their best to meet the demands of a much diversified class room especially here is the Ogden Area."
I didn't mean to indicate that I thought that Ogden school teachers are not good nor dedicated. Putting four children through the public school systems I have seen both outstanding, dedicated teachers, who are by far in the majority, and then I've seen the other kind as well. And it is the students who pay when the administration does not follow through in their responsibilities to the students, and notate problems, then let the teacher know so that steps can be taken to either give them remedial help or remove them from the classroom.
You also said, "However, I too had personal experiences with my children's education in the public schools . . . "Those first sets of children are no longer in the public schools and two of them had dropped out and the other two had done ok. Now this is were it starts to get real interesting. My youngest child is now in the 1st grade and is an honor student. Do I credit this achievement not alone to the teachers, no? However they do play a very big role in his education. Where I contribute the big difference is my new wife. She is very consistence with him in his education from talking to the teacher and reading with him every night and making sure his homework is done." I agree with you. To a large extent the interaction between parents and children and the parents' involvement in their child's education and world, is the key to confident, successful students. My children did well in school, and I always went to their parent-teacher conferences until they graduated, and some of the teachers would say, "Oh, you didn't to come. Your son is doing just fine." But then I attended "Grandparent's Day" for my oldest granddaughter, and was appalled to learn that all four of them were enrolled in remedial programs. Their mother was never home, and the oldest child (even though she was a child herself, took care of the other children. My other grandchildren, are excelling in school and their mothers do as your wife does -- spends time with them individually and makes sure their homework is done. There is no substitute for the help and support of parents.
Curmudgeon, you are right when you say that Utah has one of highest student-teacher ratio in the nation. I know that the legislature has addressed this issue several times, but the money doesn't make it to reducing class size. That is a big problem. We need to face the problem and resolve it.
As I read this blog, I see three points emerging.
1. Public schools are a mess. Vouchers, by introducing competition, will improve public schools. If this is the case, then why haven't previous voucher programs in other states had this effect? I remain unconvinced.
2. Vouchers represent a transfer of public tax dollars to a private enterprise. This point, which I think is critical, remains unrefuted.
3. Public schools are a public good. We should not create an incentive for letting parents opt out of the system. Again, this point remains unrefuted.
Let's say I decided that Ogden City Water was nasty. (Not a hard example to bend our collective minds around, I think.) I decide to cut off my city water, drill a well, and drink my own. Fine. I have a perfect right to do that. The question is, should Curm and Debbie and all the various Anonymi be forced to subsidize my venture into self-sufficiency, or should it be something I do on my own?
Is my protest likely to improve the city's water system?
If a majority of people join me, will it make it easier or harder for the city to fix its water infrastructure, as revenues decline?
Well, you already know what I think. I think we should be banding together for the common good, working together to improve our school system, not petulantly refusing to let our children rub shoulders with those we deem unsuitable.
Given the circumstances in the South that Curm describes (which I've experienced first-hand, by the way), if I make the choice to remove my children from schools, then I should face the disincentive of additional payment.
(As has been noted by other posters above, the argument for vouchers would be stronger if private schools were demonstrably better than public ones. They're not.)
Memo to Anonymous, whose second wife was a better parent than the first:
Excellent point. It amazes me that Americans are cluelessly caught up in ad nauseam debates about vouchers, No Child Left Behind, etc., as if anything that happens in school can compensate for failure in the home. (Don't anyone DARE quote me on that; I'll deny I said it.)
Moroni mcconkie wrote: "(Don't anyone DARE quote me on that; I'll deny I said it.)"
I note that, and, with a heavy heart, conclude that MM must be a Republican....
[Sorry. Couldn't resist. {grin}]
Way to go Greiner. I'm still a little bit shocked that he voted the way he did on this particular subject. As for school vouchers, nobody on this board or in the legislature or elsewhere have provided a cogent argument why public dollars should go towards private education. When are we ever going to explore and address the real issues that are impeding our public schools today? Private vouchers are not a solution. Once again, way to go Greiner...since you are receiving a several paychecks from the public (retirement, police chief, legislator) it is about time you start stepping up to the plate in our favor. Viva! Viva! Viva!
police chief just voted to keep quota in place, run for cover ogden city residents, the police will be out in force to take money from your wallets.
Curm: What you observed was not a Republican reviving, but a Democrat backsliding!
MM:
[grin]
Competition is always good? So, it would be better if we had two competing, or three, water systems in Ogden, laying separate pipe lines for delivery, etc.? And two, maybe three, Ogden Police Departments, racing to get to a crime scene first so they could cop the fees for working it? Somehow, I don't think so.
There are areas of the economy in which competition [but regulated competition, since wholly unregulated competition eventually leads to monopoly in many cases... we have a history here worth studying to show what happens when there is no regulation at all].... in which competition has proven to be an effective, and in many cases, the most effective way to foster innovation, improve perfromance and lower prices. On the other hand, there are areas in which competition is not only not the most efficient, but is demonstrably a very inefficient way to allocate resources, improve performance and lower prices. As with most matters, there is no one-size-fits-all bumper sticker slogan solution that makes sense in all circumstances.
Important story in today's SL Trib for those state legislators thinking of voting for HB233 which will severely limit cities' ability to deny building permits ins risky geologic areas.
Here are the opening paragraphs:
PROVO - A handful of pricey homes high on the northernmost end of Provo's east bench sit empty.
The view of the valley and Utah Lake cannot be beat from their perch on Mile High Drive. But joy over being able to afford such panoramas has been replaced with homeowners' pain of watching their houses slowly slide down the hill.
In the past 18 months, movement in the Sherwood Hills landslide has rendered three homes along a dip of the road uninhabitable, according to Francis Ashland, a geologist with the Utah Geological Survey.
"The Sherwood Hills landslide never stops; it's continuously moving," Ashland said. "Even in a dry year, there is an average of seven utility disconnects up in the area near Mile High Drive."
The full story can be found here.
Curm-
The development mentioned in this article is one example of a widespread problem. Similar problems in the past few years have occurred in Farmington, Layton, Mountain Green, and elsewhere throughout the state. It is largely due to improper planning. Developers are let to build where ever the hay they see fit. Planning's job is to promote and protect the health, safety, and general welfare of the public. If cities are limited in their zoning powers to do so, why having planning in the first place. Should we do away w/ planning and zoning in Utah since cities are beholden to the developers and other private interests?
This is not the first time a bill has been proposed to limit the scope of zoning in communities, last year Senator or Rep. (forget which) Mansell had a wacky proposal. Hopefully HB233 will be shot down, too. Zoning powers are already fairly weak in Utah compared to other States. For a State who's population is going to continue to rapidly increase, we are not doing a good enough job of planning for it. Gotta love them Republican Legislators.
Speaking of Republican Legislators, is it possible Chief Greiner's time spent away at the Legislature has impeded has work as police chief? Ogden apparentely is having a few problems w/ crime lately. I don't know how it would be possible to properly address serious crime issues in Ogden when doing an act at the Legislature circus.
I had just read about the robberies, where were the police to catch this guy. were they all hiding out trying to get their quota that the chief said that we don't have. they should have been patroling the neighberhoods that Rep. Hansen has been outspoken on. but the police chief is in denial when he thinks all is well in Ogden, Maybe we need not only a new Mayor but also a new police chief!!!
Hey, "knows jack" (which is doubtful), and "anonymous" no one on this blog said that as far as education goes, competition is good. What I did say was: "I was told by a legislator that he supported the "Voucher" concept and didn't see anything wrong with tax dollars going to private schools because competition meant that the public schools would have to improve their product. On the other hand, I have had school administrators say that just losing the weighted pupil unit that the State pays to the school district for each student in school has hurt them in many ways when a student goes to one of the charter schools. If you want to contact that legislator, his name is Senator Scott Jenkins from Weber County. But I don't think that he would be impressed by your foul mouths, as I am not! But since you can't differentiate between someone repeating what someone had told them or saying it themselves, or maybe your reading comprehension is a bit below par, your gutter language only emphasizes that you're not the brightest light on the blog.
Jill you are right on the money about HB 233, but we have to do more than hope that this bill doesn't pass -- we must do our part to ensure that it doesn't, by pointing out what makes it such a bad bill to our representatives and senators who are being pressured to pass it. We need to "pressure" them to defeat it! If you would like a copy of that bill, maybe rudi could put it up as a reference so everyone could read it. Let us know.
re: robbers run free's comment
I was amazed to read in Sunday's SE that some of the OPD officers going out on calls are volunteers. They are trained and differ only from regular officers in not being able to make arrests while off-duty and not being paid for time worked. I thank these fine individuals for their contribution to Ogden. Do they have ticket quotas?
I was also surprised to learn that Officer Matt Jones will have to appear in court several times in his former capacity as an Ogden Police Officer. First he's fired under questionable circumstances and then he's told he must work on his own time!
Jill:
Thanks for filling in a little more on zoning law in Utah.
As for our triple-dippin' Police Chief John Greiner [R-Godfrey Administration] --- he gets retirement pay, pay as police chief and pay as state senator --- I presume he is taking annual leave for the weeks he is as an absentee police chief while serving in the Senate. At least I hope he is. Anyone one know for certain? I can't imagine that he's not.
But to be fair, I don't think we can attribute Ogden's overnight crime wave to the Chief's being off at the Republican Party Message-Sending Fest and Public Attorney Full Employment Rally generally known as the Utah State Legislative Session. What we might want to look into more carefully is city levels of funding for police [number hired, investment in equipment so our guys are at least as well armed as the bad guys, funds for training, support for gang squads, and so on].
As for "Robbers" comments about why weren't the police around to arrest the guy.... Robber, police work is nearly all reactive. They come in [necessarily] after crimes have been committed. Their primary role is apprehension of people for crimes already committed, not crime prevention, though they do some of that by way of offering information on protecting businesses and private homes, neighborhood watch programs, and so on.
Any major committment to crime prevention [which by the way would be a very good idea] necessarily involves the sorts of things that have tended to set the teeth of Utah legislators on edge. Prison education programs [the great majority of prisoners in Utah are functionally illiterate or very close to that], prison job training programs, treatment for drug offenders [non violent, non armed] rather than simply incarceration and release. I can hear the wails now: "Why should taxpayers pay for education for criminals?" etc. The answer is: because prison education and training programs, and drug treatment programs as opposed to mere incarceration can reduce recidivism rate [which in Utah as nearly everywhere else is horrendous] for some kinds of crime. Not all but some. Investment in such programs now can reduce crime later, in the same way that investment in well-care and preventive medical care greatly reduces medical expences in the absense of such programs. Exactly the same idea. Think we can get the Utah legislature to spring for costly prison reform and crime prevention investment? Maybe if we can show reformed prisoners will be a major source of soccer players for SL Real. Not otherwise, though.
In fact, it's worse than that. We make it, in Ogden, hard for criminals who have done their time to go straight. The much touted Ogden "good landlord" program, for example, involves denying renting apartments to people with criminal records. So, say someone has done his time, trying to go straight, gets a job, is trying to avoid association with criminals, etc. as parole usually requires, and he finds he can not rent an apartment to live in in any area of Ogden... all those certfified "good landlords"... except some low-rent dive which is already a vector for crime in the first place? Very often, I think, we don't think through the consequences of public policies like the "good landlord" certification. [And before anyone asks, no I am not a convicted felon who can't find an apartment and no, no member of my family has been denied an apartment under the "good landlord" program in Ogden.]
Curm...stop being so dang 'fair'...it's annoying!
Matt Jones was called one of the most 'deceitful' officers Greiner has ever known...and yet he'll be expected to be in court and swear to tell the truth on past cases! oy vey.
So, is his word good or not? Only when convenient.
Sharon:
You can bet your bottom dollar that every defense lawyer in a case Jones testifies in will make the jury aware of Greiner's statement and, if the judge permits it, will try to call Greiner as a rebuttal witness, leaving Greiner with the interesting dilemma of, under oath, pronouncing a prosecution police witness "deceitful" or, under oath, contravening his on-the-record statements about Jones' integrity. If the judge permits it, which I suspect he or she will not.
BTW, I wasn't commenting on Greiner's general management of the Department, about which I don't know much beyond his toadying to Hizonnah when the latter was playing Junior G Man following a city employee's wife around downtown. I was only disagreeing with the suggestion that Chief Greiner's being out of town for a few weeks to sit in the Senate was the reason, or even a reason, for Ogden's recent crime spree.
As for the ticket quota matter: quotas never look good. But I am not as upset about them as some others here because [as I've said before] my five year's driving experience in and around Ogden has me convinced that there are far too few traffic tickets being written, not far too many.
Curm that's because their isn't enough Cops on the street. Godfrey would rather shell out your tax money to rich business men. Then to really fight crime.
Dear Cop,
What you say is so true! While Officer Hammond is risking his life in SLC...and being praised by the SL Police CHIEF!!...crime is rampant in Ogden.
It's disheartening to see Ogden on the TV news as a lead story of FOUR robberies committed in one night! Not to mention the shootings and muggings.
BTW, Just Cop...what would YOU say the ratio of illegals to citizens is to the crimes in Ogden??
What do YOU think should be done about theis growing festering problem?
Kudos to Officer Hammond for bringing prestige to your dep't and to Ogden! Just as we pray for our troops, we pray for our police and firefighters too.
Dear WCF
20 Years ago during a debate between voucher supporters and Weber County School Board members one of the Board members told them that the purpose of public edcation was to give an average education to the masses of people.
We need to keep in mind the princible when addressing the issue of education.
Anon
What? The 'masses' merit only an 'average' education?
And then what? These recipients are fit to be municipal sycophants to a pint-sized dictator?
Dear Observer 1
Did you go to public school in Weber County?
ANON
Mercy Livermore you asked me, how I feel about the ratio of illegals to citizens is to the crimes in Ogden? Well my personal beliefs are.
1) Every human being is a Child of God.
2) U S A is the land of liberty and refuge from oppression.
3) I believe in Justice and Mercy!
I strongly feel that Mexican Immigrants are oppressed because of unbridled Capitalism and that’s why their fleeing to America. I feel that America is leaning to the same policies that Mexico has. They believe that less government is better. I feel the U S Government needs to make it easier for all immigrants to become U S citizens. This will allow us to be safer because we’ll know who is here and why and what their doing. Us Cops don’t want to be playing Costopo. Us Cops want to be able to take the true criminals off the street. We don’t want to put Moms and Dads in jail that are here for trying to earn a living for their families. This happens way too much, and IT TRULY BREAKS MY HEART.
Every person who breaks the law must be properly punished. We need to have a government that sticks to services and not playing developers. Economic Development belongs to the private sector. When local and federal government shells out our tax money to rich businesses, its Robin Hood in reverse. It takes funds away from Public Safety and Public Education.
p s Thank you for your kind words.
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