By Curmudgeon
Several interesting recent stories which might be of interest to Ogden and Weberites.
First, eminent domain powers to take private land, including homes, to sell to other private developers, are it seems about to return. Full story in the SL Trib here. The Trib details the enthusiastic support for the return of eminent domain powers to take private property to benefit another private entity by Ogden's very own Godfrey administration spokesperson Mark Johnson:
And then yesterday, there was the opening salvo in Hizzonah Mayor Godfrey's re-election campaign, fired appropriately enough by Godfreyista Councilman Stephenson in an op-ed piece in the Standard Examiner. The evidence of Councilman Stephenson's enlisting in the Corps de Godfrey can be found here."Two years ago, the Legislature stopped cities from using eminent domain for redevelopment projects.
At the time, Ogden's effort to replace homes and businesses in a blighted downtown neighborhood with a Wal-Mart was cited as an abuse by legislators who subsequently put a moratorium on such use of eminent domain.
Under an amendment to HB365 approved by the committee, Ogden would be able to pick up where it left off in trying to acquire homes and businesses in that area north of Union Station - as well as in the Ogden River Project area.
Mark Johnson, Ogden's management-services director, praised the measure."This really helps some of the key projects in the city, such as the river project, which is part of the downtown rebirth."
The second phase of the Ogden River Project - a plan to transform 60 acres north of the LDS Temple downtown with new homes, shops and restaurants - has been stymied by the moratorium, he said. "
Stephenson's piece is remarkable as an example of political sophistry at its best/worst [pick one]. It rings all the old Godfrey Gondola Amen Chorus chimes... like wondering what would have happened to Ogden if naysayers back in the day had prevented the railroad from coming here, and likening current opponents to vague un-named plans of the Mayor and others to the non-existent RR protesters in Stephenson's imaginary history. Stephenson insists that we "must" -- all of us -- actively support the plans of Ogden's Mayor to bring new business to the city, whatever those plans may be. Stephenson notes that a dozen companies have come already, and he concedes [somewhat grudgingly] that fast access here to mountain recreation is at least a reason they came. But that's not the major reason they came. What was that reason? Well, let Councilman Stephenson explain it for you:
"However, most of those that I have communicated with admit that the most compelling reason they came to Ogden is the excitement generated by projects and proposals currently under way, and because of the progressive and can-do attitude of the mayor, his administration and other city leadership. "
I found it interesting that nowhere in his op-ed piece does Mr. Stephenson so much as mention any of the following terms: "gondola" or "Peterson" or "Peterson proposal." Not to be found anywhere in his essay. Not once. Imagine that. Nary a mention.
Notice too that at the recent Godfrey-organized "Envision Ogden" announced at its founding meeting that it is taking "no position" on the gondola proposal.
From which I think we can conclude two things: (a) The Godfrey campaign brain trust has concluded that the gondola and Peterson Proposals are not winning issues for the Mayor in his pursuit of re-election. So the Mayor's surrogates like Mr. Stephenson have been directed to keep them out of their campaign screeds. And that (b) should the Mayor be re-elected, all the vague "plans" mentioned in campaign tracts like Stephenson's will be revealed as [ta-da!] the gondola and Peterson proposals to buy Ogden's public open space on the benches and turn them into a real estate development to finance the Mayor's crony Chris Peterson's development dreams.
Just like last time. We know now that Hizzonah was already canoodling with Mr. Peterson about selling the golf course and public bench lands to finance gondolas here, gondolas there, gondolas everywhere! before his last re-election. The Mayor just didn't happen to mention it during the campaign. Looks like he's working from the same playbook this time: keep the gondola/Peterson proposals off the stage as campaign issues, until the morning after the votes are counted, when he will trot them out yet again. And no doubt he will be campaigning hard to elect compliant Council members as well.
62 comments:
Could anybody make it through Stephenson's piece w/out puking? Has the man ever had an original thought of his own? His written pieces are even worse than his comments while sitting on his Council seat. Eek, don't mean to start out the comments by being a naysaying whiner, but sheesh, give me a break Councilman.
Dear WCF
Does anyone doubt that the Gondola is part of the plan of the Mayor.
When companies say that they moved here because of the Mayor's vision for the city, does the gondola have to be spacifically mentioned?
It is more accurate and inclusive to refer to the reasons as "The Mayor's Vision" The plans for the revival of Ogden are more expansive than the gondola, however the gondola is a key element.
Revitalizing WSU is also important to business. This is the reason that they want to plant the gondola into the campus.
ANON
Interesting that the city keeps blaming the River Project delays on the loss of eminent domain powers. If I recall correctly, the Council approved the River Project in 2002, so the city (RDA) had three years to get going on the project before eminent domain authority was lost in 2005. Furthermore, it's been reported over and over again that even without eminent domain, the RDA has been able to purchase options on most of the properties in the River Project area. Meanwhile, dozens of home and business owners in the River Project area are left in limbo, unable to improve their property and not knowing when they'll have to sell it. There's no telling how much potential private investment has been prevented by this ongoing fiasco.
More generally, we should assess Mayor Godfrey's record by comparing what has actually happened during his 7+ years in office to what he has promised, and to what could have happened under other circumstances. We should also take into account the tremendous resource that he inherited, namely the revenue from BDO that is being used to fund so many of the projects that he brags about.
Dear Anon:
Let me simply note three things about your comment:
(a)The Ski Hub idea, or more broadly, Outdoor Sports Hub idea as a commercial identity for Ogden is not a bad idea at all. And the Mayor deserves kudos for his successful work promoting it. And people here on WCF have congratulated him for that work, myself among them. However, that in no way means that the gondola/gondola and real estate speculation scheme his is touting is required for the Ogden Mt. Sports Hub idea to succeed. In fact, if the scheme did materialize, and 600 or so vacation villas began chewing up the public benchlands in Ogden, that might -- and I think would -- significantly reduce city access to mountain recreation, not increase it.
(b) The 12 companies [which I am very glad are here and would be delighted to see more have the wit to choose Ogden] have already come here. They came to an Ogden which has no downtown to WSU flatland gondola in place; to an Ogden with no gondola from WSU that doesn't go to Snow Basin. And to an Ogden with out a mini-resort in Malan's Basin. Yet they are all here now. Imagine that. Do you suppose that Ogden's proximity to unmatched mountain sports venues, and Ogden's relatively inexpensive commercial rental rates and housing prices compared to sites close to other good mountain sports access could have been not only a major, but the major, factor in their decisions? Even after Mr. Geiger became Choirmaster of the Lift Ogden Amen Chorus, he waxed eloquent about how much his cost of doing business declined upon his company's arrival in Ogden.
(c)You say the gondola "is a key element" in the Mayor's plans for revitalizing Ogden. You must not have gotten the memo. The official Godfrey Party Line has been that the gondola/gondola plan is the [not a] key element in reviving Ogden. Why, I've heard Hizzonah his very own self insist that all the ski-related companies now here came because they'd been assured Ogden would build the two gondolas for them. Better stay on message or you'll be voted out of the Chorus before you know it. In any case, if the gondola/gondola and Peterson real estate speculations are so central to the Mayor's plans for Ogden, we have to wonder even more that Mr. Stephenson's campaign tract managed to mention neither of them. Curiouser and curiouser....
Gondolas can now be stuck in the ground, take water, and grow!
ANON!
Curm
Last week I attended a public meeting where the President of Salomon openly stated that it was the lure of the gondola that brought them here.
At the BYU/Utah game the executive director of SLC Tourism told me that the gondola project is changing the dynamics of Utah developement. He told me that 30% of the phone calls they recieve are now about Ogden. He said that they are having a tough time competing with the proposal when trying to recruit out door companies.
ANON
Anon:
Forgive me if I am skeptical. The gondola/gondola scheme to even be built, never mind be successful, will require the approval of the Council, the sale of the public benchlands [to which there seems to be substantial opposition in the city], the sale of WSU's benchlands [which the recent report to the regents about the potential for university expansion onto the land, and construction of University buildings there makes seem doubtful], the success of the resulting resort real estate speculation [the 600 vacation villas on the Ogden bench], the raising by its success of enough funds to finance the up mountain segment of the gondola to an as-yet to be developed mini resort in Malan's Basin [the economic feasibility of which is doubtful]. All those dominoes have to fall in exactly the right order at exactly the right time for the gondola/gondola scheme to even be built at all, much less be successful.
And you are telling me that all these companies were willing to gamble that all of that is going to happen over the next 15 to 20 years [Peterson's estimate of the project's completion time]? As I said, forgive my skepticism. That company managers, recruited by the Mayor to come to Ogden, and who will no doubt be seeking assistance from city administration about a variety of matters down the road, would be willing to make PR statements in support of the Mayor's plan I doubt not at all. It costs them nothing and it is always wise for businessmen to establish good relations with a city's administration. But it is PR and so to be taken with a prudent grain of salt.
As I've said before, I have no problem with Mr. Peterson trying to develop a resort on his land in the basin, nor would I object to the city selling him a small tract of public land, say five acres, for the base station of his up-mountain gondola. He can then develop the basin with whatever financing he can arrange in the usual way, from investors.
Where I, and so many others balk, is on the plan to finance all this by selling the public benchlands for residential real estate development, and on the plan to build a flatland city built, city owned non-transit gondola from downtown to WSU. That chimera has already held up Ogden's development of trolley transit for close to two years as the Mayor lobbied to substitute his gondola scheme.
Have to tell you, my skepticism is also fueled by the Mayor's thin grasp of the basics of ethical conduct in a public official. Look for example at his continuing to claim the gondola/gondola will connect downtown Ogden with Snow Basin, on the city website for example, long long long after Snow Basin management made it clear that that was not going to happen. And his managing not to mention in his last campaign the Gondola/Peterson matter we know now he was already planning. That is not how honorable men conduct themselves in campaigns for office. In short, Anon, the Mayor's word is, for me, no longer good.
I like the idea of Ogden as an outdoor sports recreation hub. That was a good idea and the Mayor has done good work promoting it. If he was not using it to try to sell his gondola/gondola real estate speculation which rests on selling the Mt. Ogden public lands to finance Mr. Peterson and to construct a city owned downtown flatland gondola which nofeasibility study has yet suggested can succeed financially, I might even vote for him. But the gondola/gondola real estate scheme and his less than sterling record of ethical conduct in office will, I'm afraid, prevent that.
Other key elements in the Godfrey/Stephenson vision.
Honestly, I think we should just trust Mayor Godfrey in every decision that he makes and we should just support that.
Where did all these new cheerleaders come from?? I would say that I don't trust the Mayor as far as I could throw him, but I probably could throw him a ways, so I just don't trust him at all! I lost that when the Street Fest was taken away....
How astute as businessmen are Salomen and other SKI HUB entities who came here for the gondola?? Sheesh! is right.
I guess Stephenson, Johnson and Patterson et all 'forgot' to mention to these guys that Ellison said the 'project' is ten to twenty years out.
Some of these CEO's will be retired or dead by then.
Stephenson is the living embodiment of sycophant. Hairdo Harmer, Hummer Johnson and Smiling John Patterson do this city a disservice.
If Neil Hansen is serious about running for mayor or ANYONE ELSE wants to...NOW is the time to get into the fray. The citizens must hear the name(s) and attend community meetings of getting to know the candidate(s) and issues.
We simply cannot delay any longer. Envision Ogden, my armpit, it's more like Imprison Ogden.
Mayoral candidate(s) come out, come out whomever you are!!!
Djole,
Trust me you wouldn't want to say that you don't trust the mayor as far as you can throw him because he will go a long way. First of all he's a runt and second of all he is full of hot air and he would float forever. Lastly, half of him is already up in space (his head) so in reality you would only be throwing his legs.
Dear Curm
All I know is that the SE has reported that there has been one new company after another move to Ogden over the past few months.
I have heard the presidents of these companies openly state that the reason that they came here was the Mayors vision of what Ogden will become. (Gondola included)
I also listen to the 20 year time line and I am aware that SnowBasin was completly built for the Olympics in less that 2 years. It is not completely built but it is one hell of a nice resort in a very short time.
Anon
If the gondola and malan's basin were to open during a thin snow year, like this season, it would be such miserable failure, probably never to recover. People would see that Malan's Basin is unskiable while powder mountain and snowbasin remain open.
Still haven't seen the Geiger's or anyone else recognizable from the LO chorus out skiing the fine conditions like today at Powder Mt. If ski resort access is so important to your business why are you not out on these most epic of days. You'd rather ride a gondola to ski 180 measly acres in Malan's???? I'd say your client's will be sorely disappointed at you being so cheap to not take them to the real goods on the other side of the hill. Imagine coming all the way to Utah from Europe or Asia and being taken by your corporate host to the smallest ski area in Utah with the shabbiest conditions. And wasting half the day riding in a series of gondolas up AND down the mountain. Can these people think. I am surprised at Mike Dowse. He would appear to be the most worldly of the bunch having been with AmerSports for 25 years. This is real world experience in a huge company. He is far above Godfrey's league yet is willing to stoop and shill. Embarrassing.
Tec, My point exactly. Dowse has been with Amer for 25 years..and still expects to ride the goofdola??? He should be retired in twenty years!!
I hope we don't have avalanches in Malan's this year. So MUCH snow up there.
Are you aware that Peterson is buying up more land in Ogden? Has a company called Bootjack LLC.
Bootjack LLC? I swear I never heard of it. Chris Peterson's Brother? Imagine that.
Please remember to vote for me in November 2007. I am beyond reproach.
Special campaign contributions for 2007 can be submitted via my lower-linked website.
Thanks, suckers,
Brandon
Anon:
The 15 to 20 year estimate came from Mr. Peterson, not me. On the record. And please note, it involves not the time, first shovel to opening, of the proposed Malan's Basin Resort [which you'er trying to draw a parallel with Snow Basin suggests] but includes the time for all the various govt. entities that need to act to act, and favorably [Ogden City, WSU, Weber County], the time for the real estate sale to Peterson, the various environmental and geologic studies needed to be done to be done, the design and planning to proceed to the point at which units could be sold, then the construction of the up mountain gondola to begin and be completed, so that the Malan's Resort could start to be developed.
Snow Basin two years project, please note, consisted of sprucing up [very considerably I agree] an already existing ski resort. Not much of a parallel seems to me.
Dear WCF
I read all of the comments from most all of the people on this site and everything seems to know all of the answers.
The question that I keep coming back to, is why do all of these ski companies, that know something about the ski industry, and all of these developers, that know something about developing, not agree with you people.
Something does not fit.
ANON
They may know ski caps, but they apparently didn't know the mayor.
For the record:
The Snowbasin Land Exchange Act was passed in late 1996. The Snowbasin pre-Olympic build-up began immediately after that and was completed just in time, in late 2001. That's five years, not two, and the Act exempted the whole project from the environmental analysis that would ordinarily be required on federal lands.
More importantly, the Snowbasin build-up was financed entirely by Earl Holding (well, except for the new highway which we taxpayers paid for). When you have that kind of money, you can make things happen pretty quickly.
Dear WCF
There you go!
It took 5 or 6 years not 20.
I will bet that the forum continues to use the 15 to 20 years.
It is very confusing.
Thanks DAN S.
Are you someone that has knowledge of the facts?
ANON
LOL!
There's only ONE nitwit crew who addresses the 6-8 thousand folks at WCF as if they were a one-minded singularity:
The Geiger nitwits are back again.
ANON,
If these ski industry people, like yourself, maybe? had been out skiing now and then they would know how ridiculous an hours ride in a gondola to a tiny ski slope would be. How stupid your company will look taking clients on such an interminable afternoon of gondola cruising, while they should be on the slope at Powder or Snowbasin. Use your, obviously impaired, powers of visualization to imagine how silly the whole scene would be. I ride gondolas far more than you do. They have no utility serving a route across the city.
Let's get this right again...
WSU needs to OK land sale before
the city can ok land sale to...
be redeveloped into homes to generate the capital to...
build a gondola up mountain...
to develop a roadless resort...
before a town gondola is needed to serve it.
Five years...you're dreaming.
Dear anon, I suppose the answer to your question about ski co. and developers(broad as it may be) could lie very cheap warehouse space and*****$12,000,000. gifts from local gov. But other than Boyer, what developer would you be refering to? Do they have a track record or just jerkin our chain,hoping some dumb elected official will throw some cash their way also?
ANON,
As I said, the Snowbasin pre-Olympic buildup took five years. How long the Peterson project would take is another matter. However, I was there, in the room, on August 8 when Tom Ellison said the whole thing would take 10 to 20 years. He also made it clear that some parts, including the gondolas and ski area, could happen more quickly as part of a first phase. He didn't say how much more quickly that would be.
Remember, though, that Peterson does not have a good track record of keeping his promises, when it comes to deadlines. He told the press in fall 2005 that his via ferrata course was open for business, before he bothered to apply for a business license. Now it's 2007 and he still doesn't have a business license. He told the City Council in September 2005 that he would unveil his plans for the Malan's Basin resort in approximately 60 days. Now it's been more than 500 days and we've still seen no plans. Snowbasin's plans were complete long before the 5-year clock on their pre-Olympic buildup began ticking.
It may interest you to know that last June I made a bet with a gondola proponent. He bet that there would be at least 200 condominiums in Malan's Basin within ten years. I bet that there wouldn't. It'll be a long time before I can actually collect, but given what Ellison said last August, not to mention all the reasons the whole proposal could collapse, I'd say the odds are very much in my favor. (The bet, by the way, is for a pitcher of beer at Rooster's.)
LOL "one-minded singularity".
I also was in the room (work meeting) when Ellison said 'ten to twenty years'.
Yes...Dan S. Deos have the facts. Wouldn't it have been prudent for Dowse to have done his due diligence before signing on with the 'smooth operators'?
HB 233 is right up Godfrey's dark and dangerous alley.
If Peterson was smart, (dubious at this point)...and really wanted to build his high priced gated community..AND he had the dough to do so, he'd get over to a community that is really on the way up and that would probably have valuable land for him NOW to get started.
Has anyone else noticed that since his earlier gaffes at the dog and pony shows, that his atty has apparently told him to shut his mouth and lay low? Lest ALL the townfolk catch on to the big scheme?
Anon:
You did notice, did you not, that "Evnison Ogden," formed just a few days ago by businessmen supporting the Ogden Adventure Hub concept, and including an Amer representative, informed the press at its founding gala that it was taking "no position" on the gondola. Imagine that....
And I notice that you're ignoring the fact that the Snow Basin ramp up involved improving to Olympic standards an already existing ski resort, and one to which a road already existed. The Malan's project is in no way similar. If you have been following Mr. Peterson's varied [and varying] accounts of what he plans up... we are on Version 3.2 now I think... he expects to use a gondola/tram as the access means for construction. Not a road, a construction gondola/tram. Or so he's said. Who knows what he's planning now. He isn't telling anyone.
We have seen no feasibility studies [economic, geologic, climatological or technical] about any phase of the project, no marketing studies either. And yet some, to which group it seems you belong, are for the project, whatever it may be, whenever Peterson gets around to telling us. Forgive me for suggesting that that kind of unthinking... approaching blind... support for any project does not exactly inspire confidence in the judgement of those expressing it. You don't know what Peterson is proposing, you don't know if it's feasible [commercially, or geologically or climatologically or technically], but you're all for it anyway. No wonder Peterson can't find funding from investors for his Malan's Basin project and needs public land in the benches for a residential development in order to raise the money to finance it all.
Steve Wagoner (Berthana ) told me that Peterson plans 'to use helicopters to build the Malan resort'...LOL
And, who, pray tell, will bankroll that nonsense??
Think of the sewage being brot down from the construction site via helicopter in one of our famous canyon winds? DUUUUUUUCK!
Yup, those ANON posts are Geigeresque. No matter what common sense is dished up here at WCF, the Geigers continue to chant their mantra, "We'll be greeted with open arms as liberators." Oops, I'm mixing up my wars!
Dan S
Do you think that Snow Basin is completed?
If you ask Earl Holding how long it will take to build out and complete his plan he might tell you 20 years.
That does not mean that the basic product is not available in 3 years.
It seems to me that you are all reporting that Peterson has been telling you that he is working on this plan for nearly 3 years.
Could this time be included in a 5 year plan? This might fit into 2 years of actual building. That would mean that it took 5 years from concept to basic completion.
How do you know how much time and work was put into the project planning while he was working at SB?
Our time lines may be different than his. He could easily be 5 years into his plan.
ANON
ANON:
Speculations, like promises, are cheap. I'd rather stick to the facts.
Or, since you obviously have strong opinions on this matter, perhaps you would prefer to make a bet, along the lines of the one I mentioned above.
I'll open with the following offer: I bet a pitcher of beer at Rooster's that three years from now, there will be no gondola to Malan's Basin.
Feel free to make a counter-offer, should you prefer some other time frame, project component, or beverage.
Dan S.:
I wouldn't take that bet.
However, I will bet ANON that three years from now, he still hasn't learned to press the "Other" radio button and type in a proper alias.
I think Neil Hansen should be our man for Mayor. He's proven to be on our side.
Dan S
I am just rying to make sence of all this.
The arguments seem to contradict one another.
I was merily challenging the 15 to 20 year point that "you" contradicted when you said that SB was done to the level it currenty
sits in approx 5 years.
I do not have any idea if this project will ever happen. I am just trying to make some logical conclusions.
The ski companies, that I would bet, know more about ski resorts than most, are coming here because of a plan that the Mayor has proposed. This is a fact. The gondola is a large part of the Mayors plan.
Should I believe that these people are fools? Should I believe that the people on this blog know more than they about why they came?
Should I believe that a person willing to risk his money is without knowledge and dooped by the Mayor?
Or should I believe that he has studied the project before he spends his money?
I am merily asking questions to get real answers!
Anon
three years into his plan??? Is hiding and avoiding answering questions developing a resort? If CP was planning his Malan's scheme while at Snowbasin, it's no wonder that Holding said adios to him.
These not so anonymous anonymousi need to take a cold shower.
three years into his plan??? Is hiding and avoiding answering questions developing a resort? If CP was planning his Malan's scheme while at Snowbasin, it's no wonder that Holding said adios to him.
These not so anonymous anonymousi need to take a cold shower.
BTW the word is D U P E D
Permit me to remind Anon, yet again, that Envision Ogden, formed with the Mayor's enthusiastic support just a week ago of business representatives specifically to promote the Outdoor Adventure Hub Ogden concept, and including representatives of the ski companies anon. keeps mentioning, announced it was taking "no position" on the gondola proposal. Or as I might have headlined it: "Business Group Promoting Ogden as Outdoor Sports Hub Refuses to Back Godfrey Gondola Plan."
Imagine that....
Anon:
Either you have inside information that I'm not aware of, or you're using the word "fact" in a new way that I'm unfamiliar with.
If you really can't think of any way to make sense of "all this" other than to assume that the whole Peterson scheme is practically a done deal, then I should think you'd be happy to take me up on my offer of a bet.
Well?
Hey anon, what prodject? Could be Peterson's just some dupe,distraction, for the Mayor. All this hoopla seems to have distracted everyone from the fact that all his real prodjects are way over budget andbreaking the city.Word is,big trouble since the audit was completed in Nov. May involve fractured laws and such. To quote the council, planning commission and other city officials,"there is no proposal".
ANON,
These ski company people came because the access to great skiing, the reasonable cost of living, and proximity to the natural environment. Ogden scores higher than ANY western resort area. It's a no brainer. I pity the fools working for recreational companies in Denver, Portland, Seattle, anywhere California.
These ski company folks do not know anything more about ski areas than any committed skier around here. They will have to learn the secret stashes though. The Peterson Plan WILL NOT give them better access to skiing than they have today. THAT IS A FACT.
The real action is Snowbasin with 2800 acres and Powder Mountain with 5000+ acres. This season has made evident the unique snow environment that is Powder Mountain. While Snowbasin loses snow cover to the sun and suffering from high snow levels in recent storms, Powder Mountain, while having a similar elevation profile has had powder top to bottom. No rain. Malan's Basin? All rain and little usable snow cover. That is evidence.
None of Peterson's plan will bring them closer to the world class skiing that is already plenty close.
I know that these newcomers from Mike Dowse on down THINK that the Peterson plan is gold and done, wait till they move here and see the real situation. It has nothing to do with opposition and everything to do with real world logistics. It will never be built and the city is being held hostage by an unworkable and unbuildable plan. Peterson wants our foothill real estate so much he is willing to lie his way into it.
Just get behind the team with the right stuff instead of the team with the stuff up the cracks.
The deal for AmerSports should have required or set incentives for their employees to purchase a home in Central Ogden. Imagine the effect of 100 home purchases on the central city. That would do more for ogden than any of the rest of MG's vision.
Anon,
You talk about all these companies coming to Ogden and you talk of their expertise in the ski industry.
I believe that a ski clothing company knows a lot about ski clothes, I believe that a ski manufacturer or snow board manufacturer knows a lot about skis or snowboards but I seriously doubt that either knows a bunch about ski resort development as you suggest.
As for Mr. Peterson specifically, what I’ve been told, he was not the lead man within the Snow Basin operation nor was he responsible for the development of SB nor any aspects of SB nor responsible for any of the ideas for developing SB, he was simply the SOB (son of the boss) according to some of the people within the Sinclair organization and further any representation by the city administration and by the developer that he was more than that is simply akin to resume inflation in an effort to increase his credibility. In fact I hear that after going to SB to be Earl’s man on the ground (with a title fitting a son in law) with the opportunity to work himself into a management role up there, he was eventually made to report to the manager of Sun Valley instead. It wasn’t to long after that that he left Snow Basin never to be heard of again until our mayor introduced him as our savior.
Anon, you need to do better than to suggest that he is an expert on ski resort development. Seems to me that the people or companies that he has used, are for the most part, either vendors of ski area hardware (i.e. gondola manufactures or engineering companies) looking to make a sale by a providing the free high level analysis as a sales pitch to the developer, or are real estate investors/developers.
P.S. Anon, why don’t you ask Mr. Peterson about the Squirrel Patrol that he reportedly set up? It might be an interesting story for all to hear.
Curmudgeon, you said: “And that (b) should the Mayor be re-elected, all the vague "plans" mentioned in campaign tracts like Stephenson's will be revealed as [ta-da!] the gondola and Peterson proposals to buy Ogden's public open space on the benches and turn them into a real estate development to finance the Mayor's crony Chris Peterson's development dreams.”
I really don’t think Godfrey has a prayer of being re-elected. From what I’m hearing, everyone is wise to him this time, and he has shown that he can’t be trusted or believed. He has done too many things that have upset too many people. He has lost a lot of his support, even those on the east bench.
According to that article in the SE Thursday about Weber State’s plans for the land that Peterson has said he HAS to have or the whole deal is off, anyone but “tunnel vision Godfrey” would be able to see that WSU is not going to sell their land. I don’t believe that the Council will sell the Mount Ogden golf course if WSU doesn’t sell their land. Besides that 60 acres by the golf course would need to be annexed into the City, I believe. That could be Council’s “ace card” and the control issue that they can use to stop this nonsense! Feedback that I am receiving is that the Mayor doesn’t have enough Council members’ support (unlike his previous rubber stamp Council) to make this project fly.
Curmudgeon, you told Anonymous, “You must not have gotten the memo. The official Godfrey Party Line has been that the gondola/gondola plan is the [not a] key element in reviving Ogden.” A word to the wise and Curmudgeon: Remember that you can’t believe a thing the Mayor says. Just look at his record! I’m hard pressed to think of anything that he has said that IS true!
I couldn’t agree with you more, Curmudgeon, when you say: “We have seen no feasibility studies [economic, geologic, climatological or technical] about any phase of the project, no marketing studies either. And yet some, to which group it seems you belong, are for the project, whatever it may be, whenever Peterson gets around to telling us. Forgive me for suggesting that that kind of unthinking... approaching blind... support for any project does not exactly inspire confidence in the judgement of those expressing it. You don't know what Peterson is proposing, you don't know if it's feasible [commercially, or geologically or climatologically or technically], but you're all for it anyway.”
That is what is amazes me – businessmen, who require a business plan, financial reports to ensure stability/reliability and credibility are endorsing the Godfrey/Chris Peterson project with NONE of these! Where are their brains?! Are they out to lunch?! It’s incredible that the leadership of the Chamber of Commerce unquestionably have given their support to it! Maybe we need to look at the lack of business acumen and common sense in Ogden for the failure and demise of a downtown business center/mall.
TEC Johnson, you are truly visionary when you said: “I know that these newcomers from Mike Dowse on down THINK that the Peterson plan is gold and done, wait till they move here and see the real situation. It has nothing to do with opposition and everything to do with real world logistics. It will never be built and the city is being held hostage by an unworkable and unbuildable plan. Peterson wants our foothill real estate so much he is willing to lie his way into it.” I will add that CP wants our golf course and foothills so that he can make his millions like his daddy-in-law. He isn’t being good to Ogden like the Geigers would have us believe. It is Peterson’s bid for wealth AT OGDEN’S EXPENSE!!
Someone stated that CP made his plans for Malan’s Basin while still employed at SnowBasin. I have to disagree. I heard him say that he had bought Malan’s Basin with the hopes of being able to exchange it for land near Las Vegas, but Mayor Godfrey had approached him with the idea of an all-season resort in Malan’s Basin, and promised to build a gondola from the Intermodal Hub to a gondola up the mountain that he would need to access his resort, and then extend it over the mountain to SnowBasin. Godfrey wanted to make sure that he got his gondola in downtown Ogden. There is one thing that Godfrey didn’t take into consideration: NOT ALL THE RESIDENTS OF OGDEN are as gullible and mindless as some of the businessmen who were taken in by his silver, lying tongue. I believe you are right, TEC, IT WILL NEVER BE BUILT!
And Godfrey is on his way out!
John:
As for Mayor Godfrey being on the way out of office: I hope you are right. But experience has taught me, painfully sometimes, never to underestimate an incumbent running for re-election.
It will take a candidate with a good organization, reasonable funding and many people willing to put in a lot of work to unseat Godfrey. The campaign is not all but over. It has just barely begun. Do not under estimate the Mayor. He is a well-financed two-term incumbent who by right of his incumbency can command press attention and, if we let him, frame the campaign issues in such a way as to benefit him. He can be defeated, but I don't think it's going to be as easy as many seem to think.
John, Tec, and Anon of 11:37 am...( get a name, pls!)
I agree with so much of what you all have said.
I like the idea of promoting the inner city home sales with a little incentive from the city! That truly would 'rejuvenate and resore' Ogden and CUT crime! Great idea!
I've said from the beginning that Peterson will never build his *&$%^%# gondola to his non-existent 'resort'. I hear that Wagoner, the CA guy who is going to resore the Berthana, came because of the gondola and the vision for Ogden as spewed from the lying mouth of Godfrey.
Wagoner is the latest, that we are aware, to have nibbled at the bait and been reeled in.
Yes, John. "Where are their brains"? I seriously doubt the business acumen of any CEO who decided to do business in Ogden based on the goofy visions of the Goofier mayor.
I watched CH 17 last nite. Very pretty package of snow, skiing, mountains and a few buildings around town. Easy to see how some schmuck from a flat, dusty, hot and dirty city would be enticed by the DVD of the natural beauties of Ogden and environs. Especially when viewing it in LAS VEGAS!
One is still told that the gondola is part of the package...with the pictures of one on the ground and gliding overhead. And that a business owner can step out his door and run up to a ski resort IN THE MIDDLE OF THE DAY!
However, just concentrating on the true natural treasures of our mountains, NEARBY ski resorts (real ones), fishing, real rock climbing, trails and a clean safe downtown is all the lure anyone needs.
Good skiing WAS mentioned as being a '1/2 hour away'. A true statement...how'd that get in there???
The hype on the 'rec center' was accompanied by the gliders and adults on the wave runner. Of course, 'we're the only city in the country to have a rec center and bowling alley as anchors in our mall'. I wonder WHY no other city has done the same? Hmmmm?
I hope the ski companies will do well here. I hope they'll enjoy the many activities to be enjoyed outdoors in Ogden and nearby. I hope they do well enough to afford the $15.00 a minute to glide in the wind tunnel!
I hope they enjoy bowling, eating at Rooster's, touring our RR Museum, attending events at the beautiful Peery Theatre and other cultural offerings.
There is soooo much here WITHOUT a goofdola. Peterson has shown himself to be an inept 'developer'. He and Godfrey have colluded to scam the citizens. Peterson saw mega dollar signs and Goofrey saw a LEGACY.
Check out the hype on Ch 17. I suggest we take over a lot of time on OUR station to offer facts and history. What say you?
Observer:
One of the things I think it might be interesting to find out is exactly how many times that gondola promo film has run on the city-owned and operated Channel 17, and exactly how many times a Curt Geiger gondola interview has been run. Since it's the city owned station, I imagine the records of what airs are public records. Thinking of engaging in a little opposition research, if they are, to track down the numbers.
Sadly, the Mayor has turned what should be a community cable channel into his personal propaganda outlet. His Q and A show is perfectly appropriate, but the endless replaying of Lift Ogden propaganda is not.
He's had other problems involving Channel 17. I recall when he opposed a school bond vote, he went on that Channel to editorialize and urge defeat. When proponents of the school bond issue asked for time to make their case on Ogden's "community channel" [politely so called], they were refused. Only the Mayor's views were aired.
We pay for that channel, half by tax funds, half by a bit added to our cable bills, as I understand it. It should be a community channel, providing elected officials like the Mayor and opportunity to try to build support for their programs and policies, but also providing opportunities for Ogden citiens and groups who think differently about matters of public policy to build support for their ideas as well. I doubt Channel 17 will ever be that so long as Matthew Godfrey is Mayor.
Why isn't there a TV Guide type of list for the programs and their reruns that are going to aired on channel 17?
Curm,
A couple years ago when Mitch Moyes wanted to rebut the propaganda issue of the day...funding of the rec center with OUR money....he was told he could come on wiwth the mayor.
Mitch said he'd like to bring someone with him (the mayor was not alone)...and was told no.
In fact, he had to make up his mind right then. When he said he'd think about and asked for the address, it was refused!
Remember, the mayor said HE was elected by the people and HE would make our decisions for us!!! Also, why should we worry? His integrity is higher than anyone's in the room.
But, Observer has the right idea. WE need to have our own panel discussion of facts, history and what Ogdenites and newcomers should know. And THIS program can run ad infinitum also.
When godfrey said his is the highest in the room, maybe he didn't define the word integrity, maybe he thought the word was lying, and he is the best at it.
John, you said:
Someone stated that CP made his plans for Malan’s Basin while still employed at SnowBasin. I have to disagree. I heard him say that he had bought Malan’s Basin with the hopes of being able to exchange it for land near Las Vegas, but Mayor Godfrey had approached him with the idea of an all-season resort in Malan’s Basin, and promised to build a gondola from the Intermodal Hub to a gondola up the mountain that he would need to access his resort, and then extend it over the mountain to SnowBasin.
I heard Peterson say that too, and he might've been telling the truth, but not necessarily. Let's review the other relevant bits of available information.
On May 5, 2000, the Standard-Examiner reported on Godfrey's proposal for a tram or gondola going up Taylor Canyon, supposedly to be completed in time for the Olympics. Interestingly, the article states that "Godfrey said he's been working with Chris Peterson, Earl Holding's real estate manager, on the details."
On March 8, 2002, Ogden City received a packet of information from Roger Gardner, then of Leitner-Poma (a lift manufacturer). (I got a copy of the packet via a GRAMA request in early 2004.) The cover letter lists one of the included items as information about "Taylor Canyon Ropeways--An updated summary of the Taylor Canyon ropeway alternatives made for Chris Peterson."
So it's well documented that Godfrey and Peterson have been working together on gondola schemes for nearly seven years. At first the preferred alignment was Taylor Canyon, not Malan's Basin. However, I have it on good authority (from a source that I prefer not to name) that Snowbasin considered purchasing the Malan's Basin property during the time when Peterson was working there, and that they even considered (and rejected) the idea of expanding the skiing onto the west side of the mountain.
Finally, we should consider Godfrey's side of the story, as he told it in an op-ed column in the Standard-Examiner last March 26: "Many months ago Ogden was approached by a developer who expressed interest in making a major investment in our community."
So both Godfrey and Peterson want us to believe that the scheme was originally the other guy's idea. At least one of them is being less than fully truthful. The most natural explanation would be that the scheme evolved out of multiple discussions between the two of them over several years--so they both deserve the credit (blame) for dreaming it up.
And this is why it is extremely important for our mayoral candidate(s) to get the lead out and start campaigning and exposing the deceitfulness, chicanery and disengenuous machinations of Godfrey's administration.
It is imperative that we assemble a knowledgable panel for Ch 17...you must be on it, Dan...and others who KNOW what's going on.
If Neil is serious about running...then let's get some community meetings scheduled in the library and let the rest of the citizenry know the true facts about the gondola, Peterson, financial schemes through the years, etc, etc.
Good heavens, this is past the middle of February. Envision Ogden is Godfrey's leap into a full fledged campaign for a third (gasp) term.
Who, with facts, is willing to go public and start talking? Only the brave need apply. This is no time for kid gloves. Truth will triumph.
I shudder to contemplate another 4 years of Godfrey and his minions.
What do y'all say?
Sharon:
It would be a serious tactical mistake, I think, to base an entire campaign to unseat the Mayor, or even most of it, on the gondola/Peterson matters. Any challenger who expects to be successful will have to engage on much more than just those two [related] issues. A successful campaign will have to focus not just on the past [what the Mayor has or has not done; promises unkept, mistakes made] but on the future too: what will the candidates do to improve life in Ogden. In short, a successful campaign, I think, cannot simply or even largely be "anti Godfrey" but will have to be "pro-challenger." One key will be, I think, to link the gondola/Peterson proposals to broader questions of how the challenger's vision and plans will work better for Ogden in the future than the Mayor's past performance has or future performance is likely to. Which means challengers can not permit the Mayor to frame the discussion, to frame the campaign issues. More often than not, the candidate who successfully frames the discussion during the election ends up popping champagne corks on election night. So to speak.
Curm...I did not say the mayoral candidate should base his/her whole campaign on the gondola scheme. How assinine would that be?
But surely as our candidate gives HIS/HER plan for Ogden's future, he/she would be very wise to let the folks know what the true story is with Godfrey's administration.
Ever watched a political campaign in CA? No pussyfooting there. Right Rudi?
People want the truth...and tho Jack Nicholson said 'TRUTH? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!' Thinking and voting people really do want the truth.
They want to know what the challenger sees as needs and how he/she will address them. A strong candidate will 'frame the discusssion'...and will step out as a leader who can be trusted and followed."Just the facts, m'am" served Joe Friday...and the facts will enlighten the voters too.
Sharon:
You wrote: "Just the facts, m'am" served Joe Friday...and the facts will enlighten the voters too. Well, that was a TV show, with endings arranged by the writers. Most of the time "just the facts, m'am" is not a successful campaign strategy. Facts need to be put in context, presented in a framework that gives them coherance and meaning, presented as part of [to use the currently popular term] "a narrative" the voters will find comprehensible, convincing and attractive. Unless a candidate's opponent has been so obliging as to get caught with his hand in the public til [think Congressman "Duke" Cunningham of California or Congressman Ney of Ohio] or caught on film canoodling with a person not his or her spouse [think Gary Hart], it takes much more than just a bald recitation of "just the facts, M'am" to win. Especially against an incumbent who by right of holding office can command press coverage to get his [or her] message and narrative out. It can be done, but it's not easy. That's all I'm trying to emphasize. It is not going to be easy.
My goodness, Curm...does Mrs. Curm kick you out of the house on a regular basis?
No matter what is said by ANYONE, you feel a need to add to, interject 'arguments' that were not present, and then completely change the original premise.
Of course facts need to put into context. Do you think Neil or any other candidate will spew a bunch of Godfrey C R A P without basis or 'context'? How many campaigns have you worked on, Curm?
Give us a break here, please. Folks do want facts...not 'pie in the sky' promises, innuendo, 'visions' without foundation...we've had enuf of those to fill the city dump.
Folks want truth...and they want the candidate's qualifications coupled with his ideas for problem solving.
A seasoned candidate knows how to do the right things...He/She just needs to get started!!! (And, Curm? one can be 'seasoned' without having been in political office).
Now, go kiss Mrs. C and let her have the last word on something. :)
Seems like you've been a little harsh on Curmudgeon, Sharon.
I agree that Rep. Hansen, if he runs for mayor, will need to let voters know what's been going on in this administration.
Curm is correct that Godfrey has the advantage as the incumbent, but Neil can put a good campaign staff together.
As you said, he needs to get started now!
I think Neil should wait a while longer brfore he comes out swinging.
Godfrey's going to have a war chest and Neil will not.
I don't want to see him spent out early which could happen if he starts now.
The Channel 17 program schedule can be found at:
http://ogden.cc/ch17.html>Ch 17 Schedule
With a high speed conncetion, you should be able to watch content online by going to http://www.ogdencity.com - then click on the "city services" tab at the top of the page- then "Ogden Channel 17" within that page.
Or, just click on the link.
view online
If you have feedback about programming, shoot an email to 17@ogden.cc
You should cc the Mayor and City Council as well.
One last thing for Tec Johnson-
Telling people about the great conditions at Powder Mountain and broadcasting this far and wide will only make it hard for you to find freshies and a place on the bus.
It was a zoo there over the weekend.
While I was away there seems to be more fun speculation.
All I am saying is that only Chris Peterson knows how long he has been working on his idea. It may be already 3 or 4 years. Who knows.
All I am saying is for people on this blog to make statements proporting to know why these companies came to Ogden when the Presidents of the companies openly state that one of the major reasons was the gondola is silly.
They may in fact be wrong about the economic impact of a gondola but they surely know why they came.
Anon
Ummmm...anon.
Did it ever occur to you that these ski company executives may just be humoring you?
They probably think you're nuts.
Kahuna Creations is listed as one of the ski/snowboard companies that decided to make Ogden (and more specifically "The HUB" their home.
Kahuna Creations LLC has been registered as a business entity in North Ogden since 2004. At a home address. Where the registered principal has resided for nearly 10 years. Looks like they have deep roots here to start.
"The HUB" at 2444 Washington Blvd. is actually the Ogden City Business Infromation Center (BIC). Cheap rent and possible financial assistance. Sounds like a good place to locate a start-up business and a short commute from North Ogden.
One could argue that Kahuna Creations DID NOT locate in our community- they were ALREADY HERE.
Another company touted as choosing to locate in Ogden is Snowsports Interactive. According to their website, they are an Australian company with absolutely no ties to our fair city.
Dear Little pippi
I have listened to the Presedent of AMER and the President of Salomon as well as the geiger boy's.
All of them said that the Gondola was the deciding factor in their choice of Ogden.
Why not except the statement on face value. It does not mean that we want the gondola or that it will be built.
It is foolish to make the statements we keep making, in the face of the fact that they gave the reasons for moving here.
It is foolish to continue to put words in the mouth of Chris Peterson. He say's what he says and we cannot deny it. He may be wrong. He may have no money and the geography may not allow the project to proceed. If we are right there will be no gondola.
Relax!. What connot be done will not be done.
ANON
Anon:
You wrote: "What cannot be done will not be done."
What we're debating is not "can it be done" [i.e. can a gondola be built from downtown to WSU; can one be built from WSU to Malan's Basin; can the city sell public park lands in the benches to Chris Peterson; can it be rezoned residential; and so on...]. What we're discussing is should these things be done --- a very different question.
To make the distinction clear, the City of New Orleans could [and did] build a gondola system crossing the Mississippi River that it intended as a public transit option for cross-river traffic. It shouldn't have, though. The thing never drew even 25% of the projected riders, and merrily and rapidly went bankrupt, sticking the city with a huge expense and the private investors with a huge loss and the public with an eyesore that eventually became a danger and had to be [at public expense] dismantled.
The distinction between "can" and "should" is not a trivial one. And we are debating "should" not "can." And the Mayor's plan has the city building and owning the downtown to WSU gondola. So if it all goes belly up in the end, it's the taxpayers of Ogden who will be left holding a good part of the bag.
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