Kick-starting a weekend open thread
As we approach the weekend, we thought it would be useful to highlight a few web items that have caught our attention recently, but never quite made it to the Weber County Forum front page.
First, we direct our readers' attention to this George Handy letter, addressing the question of the intent of the Malan family and Emerald City officials, at the time Mt. Ogden Park was transferred to city ownership. Mr. Handy is a prominent Ogden lawyer who has clear contemporaneous recollection of the circumstances surrounding the transfer of this property. His letter refers to an Ogden City ordinance which was enacted by the city council in 1962. He also recalls in private conversation that the original deed, conveying the property to Ogden City, contained a restrictive covenent, prohibiting use of the property for anything other than the purposes above-stated. Unfortunately, he has informed us that this document has mysteriously disappeared from the County Recorder's office. Not to worry. Finding that deed is one of George's front-burner projects. We'll continue to maintain contact with Mr. Handy, and let you all know if he comes up with the document. For the time being, we'll rely on the intent expressed in the ordinance.
In that connection, we've obtained a recorded copy of that referenced ordinance from the County Recorder's office, and uploaded it to our storage site. We accordingly link this document here, for the general information of our gentle readers. Readers will note that this 1962 ordinance indeed specifies that this property was at the time "designated and set aside as Mt. Ogden Park and dedicated to the public by Ogden City to be used by the public for Park, recreation and general community purposes."
Mr. Handy's letter makes a fine case for honoring the original intent of Gideon Highley Malan -- that the property be preserved "as a resource to be used for Ogden and not for a private developer. " We obviously couldn't be more in agreement with this sentiment.
Secondly, we direct our readers' attention to a lead editorial and companion opinion piece which appeared in yesterday's Standard-Examiner. The Std-Ex editors rightly characterize this year's Utah legislature's feeble attempt to enact basic ethics legislation as at least a "baby step" in the right direction, (assuming the senate finally falls in line and approves the legislation.) Doug Gibson's op-ed piece is far more blunt:
"We just need to ban all gifts, period. It's that simple."
We congratulate the folks at the Standard-Examiner for continuing to hammer this issue.
Finally, we thank Ogden's Finest for nailing the little creep who pulled two Emerald City armed robberies early yesterday evening. From information in today's Standard-Examiner story we believe it's reasonable to speculate that the perpetrator (who got shot - hopefully in the derriere) may be the guy who's been plaguing Emerald City with a recent string of similar aggravated robberies. We never cease to marvel at the quality of our Emerald City OPD. Chalk up another victory for the good guys.
Weber County Forum hat tips go out this morning to attorney George Handy, the Std-Ex Staff, and Ogden's Finest.
Please feel free to discuss these topics, or treat this as an open thread.
The floor is open. What's on our gentle readers' minds, as we move into another Emerald City weekend?
© 2005 - 2014 Weber County Forum™ -- All Rights Reserved
73 comments:
Just thought I'd point out, in re: Mr. Gibson's fine jerimiad against greed and corruption in the Utah legislature, that [as he, to his credit, notes in his op ed piece] all the state House members who voted against banning gifts outright were Republicans. [That the sponsor of the bill to ban all lobbyist gifts to legislators is Rep. Ralph Becker --- a Democrat --- Mr. Gibson forgot to mention. As did, I notice, Blogmeister Rudi. An inadvertent oversight I'm sure.] Rep. Becker [D-Salt Lake City] introduces his bill to ban lobbyist gifts every year, only to watch it gutted every session by Republican majorities in the House. Imagine that....
OUCH!
Suffice it to say that your blogmeister strongly differs with many of his fellow GOP colleagues as to the issue of the propriety of legislative bribes.... er, I mean gifts.
[Grin]
Sorry, Rudi. When someone serves up a hanging curve right over the plate, I can't resist taking a swing...
[Grin]
Thanks, Asque.
Excellent idea!
On pg. 11A, in today's Standard, well reknowned columnist, Dan Thomasson, wrote an article that all you WCF bloggers just might find interesting. Give it a read, why don't you?
Isn't it great, the mayor at the time of this recorded document and signed by, is the mayors own grandfather in-law, how funny is that. that his own family may stand in the way of this grand and cool skeam. smile, smile, ha ha ha ha.
when they say carma comes around this is it.
Anon:
Ah, yes. Thomasson's rant against blogs and bloggers. Of course, you could cross out "blogs" everywhere it appears in his essay and write in its place "newspapers" and it would be every bit as true. Or cross out "blogs" and write in "radio talk shows" and it would be every bit as true. Or cross out "blogs" and write in "tv panel shows" and it would be every bit as true.
Or for that matter, cross out "blogs" and write in "Congress" and it would be every bit as true. [Did you notice that today's SE carried a story about Cong. Cannon [Wingnut -- Utah] finally conceding that the killer at Trolley Square was not shouting in arabic "God is great!" as Cannon has been insisting for days that he did?] And of course we were treated last week to a Republican Congressman entering into the Congressional Record a bogus "quote" from Abraham Lincoln advocating the execution of critics of the government during wartime. The Congressman, days later, conceded that the quote is phony, but he has refused to correct the error in the Congressional Record.
So, Anon, Thomasson's screed ends up as a belabored statement of the obvious: that when we read, or hear, anything on TV, in a newspaper, on the radio, or on a blog, or in a speech by a public official, we ought to engage our minds, use a little common sense, be aware that not all that appears is true or honest, exercise a little judgment.
So, what else is new?
Yeah, we caught the article this morning, but decided not to take the bait. Now that you've brought the matter up though, here's a link, since you apparently haven't mastered the simple skill of posting a link on your own.
It's just the latest bilge we hear frquently from the jurassic era traditional print media from time to time.
Bloggers have upset the traditional information gatekeepers' control of public discourse, and they're suffering painful culture shock, we're afraid. THey don't like us one danged bit, and wish we'd just go away.
Just to even the discussion out, we hope you'll read this citizen journalism gem, which pretty much spells out what we're all about:
The People Formerly Known as the Audience.
It's a bit longish, granted, but it fairly well sets forth what's happening on the internet these days.
Readers with short attention spans can probably get the gist of it in the first few paragraphs.
Have a nice day, anonymous.
That was a great read Rudi, thanks for the link!
KUTV.com is reporting that the Ogden armed robber has died from his gunshot wounds a little more than his ass got hit it sounds like, after what he did to one of my relatives in an armed robbery I for one am glad he is gone. Rudi, you forgot the biggest news of all this week The Weber State have clinched the Big Sky men's basketball Championship, and will be hosting the Big Sky Tournament March 6 and 7. Call the Dee Events Center ask for ticket office 626-6000 everybody and get your tickets this place should be sold out the community needs to support these guys they were picked to finish last in the conference with 1st year coach Randy Rahe if they win the tournament they'll be heading to the big dance for the first time in 4 years.
Stein:
Well, since we're into promoting community events this afternoon, note the Foursite Film Festival opening in Ogden Wednesday, 28 Feb. and running through March 3. Full story on the festival and its former WSU student filmmaker/director here. The print edition also has a take-out full program for the festival. Some interesting stuff coming. [I said some, not all.] Be nice if this caught on as an Ogden-centered regional film fest. World premier showing of an indie filmed in Ogden on 3 March to close the fest [Blind Dating]. Sadly, tix prices for the screening blocks are on the steep side [$10] so choose carefully .
PS: My my my, we do seem to spend a lot of time discussing items from the Ogden Standard Examiner don't we?
Curm...Gore says the oceans are rising 20 FEET!!!!! And the UN says 17 INCHES!
Are you embarrassed to be affiliated with the party of Pelosi, Murtha, Gore and (yawn) bore?
In fact, the glaciers are getting thicker.
What burns my butt, tho, is that this drivel is being pitched to school children!
For 8 bucks, in Australia, your flatulent cat can be carbon normalized! hah!! (With what? a Beano?) I don't like cats, and now I know why. The dang creatures are contributing to global warming.
The best joke of the season is that the global warming convention had to be cancelled because of the SNOW and cold temps back east!!
Yep...it's swell to be a democrat.
I have never heard a satisfactory answer to this question: What does the Mayor mean when he says that the Mt. Ogden Golf Course "loses" $XX,XXX dollars a year?
Dan S., didn't you (and others) ask him this question directly? It seems to me there were several on this blog, as well as others, that had used GRAMA requests and polite questioning to get a real accounting of the Mt. Ogden Golf Course balance sheet, raw numbers that real accountants could audit and analyze.
I strongly suspect that the Mayor means something different than I mean when I say a public facility "is operating at a loss". There are many public goods that incur a cost but also provide a social benefit. (Non-toll roads, for example.) Would the Mayor say that city streets are operating "at a loss" because we have to pay to maintain them, and we don't have any revenue coming in from them?
Does anyone have real (or even credible made-up) numbers for the Mt. Ogden Golf Course's operating budget? For Mt. Ogden Park? It seems to me that only with real numbers can the public say, "yes, we value this land enough to continue paying taxes to support it."
Dan S. Will weigh in with an erudite answer to your question.
However, Neil Hansen and I asked the mayor in a public meeting at Union Station: "You've said you'd sell the golf course and park for a fair market value...what is the FMV?" Mayor..."I'll answer that privately, if you'll come see me after the meeting!"
Hansen: "Have you had the property appraised and will you put the lands up for bid?"
Mayor: "I'll answer that privately. See me after the meeting."
So Neil said to me, "I'm going up to get my answer". The answer?
"It goes to the person with the smartest plan".
HUH? That's your mayor looking out for all the folks. Just like 'blight'...what is the 'smartest' plan. If a plan is smartEST...that implies more than one plan, doesn't it? Otherwise the mayor should have said 'smart' plan.
But smartEST plan implies at least 3 plans.
So, which and who will prevail?
Good for Mr. Handy knowing that these valuable lands were given to the city and not to be 'sold' for a mess o' pottage.
First of all, thanks, Rudi, for posting the 1962 ordinance dedicating Mt. Ogden Park. I've labored through the legal descriptions enough to figure out that the declaration applies to the entire park, including what is now the golf course and the 60 acres of trails and undeveloped open space. This ordinance therefore puts one more nail in the coffin of the mayor's argument that the Peterson proposal would leave the "park" (the 25 acres along Taylor Avenue) intact. Unless, of course, a subsequent ordinance has officially removed the golf course and undeveloped lands from the park.
For completeness, we should also be aware that the size of the park was reduced in the early 1980's when the city decided to develop some of the property and use the proceeds to build the golf course. The park lost something like 15 acres at the north end for what's now the East Bench at 29th development, and a few more acres along 33rd Street for several more residential lots. This underscores the fact that ordinances are not permanent, and can be changed by the current or any future City Council.
republican: I'm not gonna get involved in a debate over political parties, and I hesitate to discuss global issues at all in this space, but let's set the record straight on sea level rise, ok? Gore said the oceans would rise 20 feet, and he's almost certainly right. But he didn't say when, and he should have. The chance that it'll happen within the next 500-1000 years is quite high. The chance that it'll happen within this century (the time frame for the U.N.'s much lower prediction) is probably small but highly uncertain. The 20-foot rise will be caused by the melting of most of the Greenland and West Antarctic ice sheets. Even a modest amount of global warming will cause those ice sheets to melt eventually, but melting that much ice normally takes a long time. The short-term danger is that meltwater and (in W. Antarctica) encroaching sea water might accelerate the melting tremendously. These processes are not well understood so it's my understanding that they were simply left out of the U.N. predictions. There are some preliminary indications, though, that the likelihood of faster melting is significant, so scientists are now studying this issue very intensively. In another 5 or 10 years we may know the answer more definitively. Meanwhile, all we can say is that the chance that these ice sheets will mostly disappear in as little as a century is small but unknown.
monotreme: I don't recall ever asking the mayor about the golf course finances. The only numbers I've seen are posted here, but these numbers raise more questions than they answer. (For instance, why did the net loss nearly double between 2000 and 2005? Why did the compensation and benefits line item more than double over the time period shown? Why did the debt service fluctuate so much from year to year?) I'd very much like to find an honest person who understands these numbers well enough to explain them to me. I fear that the only people who understand them are either not free to speak or would not tell the truth.
Thanks for the numbers, Dan. I'm sorry I pasted your number on someone else's jersey (so to speak).
I'm with you. I don't understand why these numbers fluctuate so much. Given that compensation and benefits are such a huge cost for any employer, why are they rising in the face of flat revenues? It seems to me a prudent fiscal policy would be to flatten out compensation and benefits in the face of flat revenues.
Still, no one seems to want to answer my question about the golf course as a public benefit. I don't golf, in fact I detest golf, but the sports I follow and participate in are not that popular anyhow.
Nonetheless, I don't mind supporting the golf course as a taxpayer, because I see the public benefit of having it there. I don't understand why that concept is so difficult for the Mayor and two members of the City Council to grasp.
I'm not picking on you, Dan, or anyone else for not answering the question: "Is the golf course a public benefit, not necessarily expected to turn a profit?"
I should think that City Council would want to answer this question first before even contemplating its sale.
I'm feeling a clash of values and philosophies here. I think the Mt. Ogden neighborhood has weighed in quite clearly on this issue. Even though I'm not in that neighborhood, I support their position.
I use the trails above the course quite frequently and want to see them left sans McMansions. I sense other Ogdenites feel the same. If I'm wrong, I'd be glad to see the evidence.
Apparently, evidence is not something the current Mayor is interested in.
Maybe I'm annoying people. I guess I don't care. I'm going to keep asking the posters to the blog, especially council members who read this until I get an answer: Why are the golf course finances so labile? Is the golf course a public benefit which should not be expected to turn a profit?
Funny you should mention it. Even a certified accountant cannot explain a spread sheet or linier column that contains no specific information as to what each entry represents.God knows I'm trying. So without going into too much detail,my prodject hardly near completion,here is an idea and comparison that I hope can sustain your interest in the golf course financing. Firt thing to keep in mind, the Golf Course Enterprize Fund Incorporates "BOTH" city owned golf courses,therefore discussion should always include both. We have one city department with one manager. Excluding all the funny little add-ons and accounting twists and resorting to a more simple cash flow basis,the Ogden City Golf Enterprize had a cash shortfall for the fiscal year 7/1/2005 thru6/30/2006 of somewhere in the neighborhood of $ 150,000.00. This would be roughly $1.90 per resident. City Parks,based on my unscrutinized numbers,cost about 1.5 million dollars to maintain,or roughly 19.00 per resident. Now before I suffer from the fractional Geiger syndrome, I better sign off and get a cup of green tea. More about the golf soon to come.
Forgot one thing, as per Miss Moulten's doccumentented accouting(this number can only go up)Matt Godfrey has invested for every resident $500.00 in the rec. center.Who knows how much more now,and how much monthly to maintain it. And yes Golf provides huge benefits to the community.Last year $300,000.00 was raised for charity at the Mt.Ogden Golf Course thru corp. tournaments. The sad thing would be that the cuorse lost money those days because they had to rent equipment to accomidate the function,maybe the city should add it up as a charitable contribution.
Just rec'd an advance press release from the City...there will be a work meeting from 5-8 pm on March 8.
This is to discuss "transportation alternatives and opportunities". Acording to the release, some knowledgable persons will speak.
Bring your own lunch. No one is ver invited to eat the food provided for the Council/staff!
In the very bottom corner of today’s Standard in section “B” is an article about the sale of the land on Wall Ave. to Bootjack, (akc Peterson). The article is interesting in that it quotes a city spokesperson named McConkie. His comments as quoted to the paper are;
“The RDA bought the property because it has significant development potential, said McConkie, adding that the $65,000 profit that will be made when it is sold to Bootjack is substantial.”
My question to the city relative to his comment is why if the city knows there is a significant development potential at this location are we selling it especially in light of his next comment that was;
“It’s a very good return and indicates that property values are going up, he said.”
If the city truly needs the money and all we net from this sale is $65,000 could we not have borrowed that much money against the property (valued at $270,000) and then sat on the property for another year or two thus capturing some of this property appreciation? I don’t think that the city is a supposed to be or should be in the real estate speculation business but it seems as though our RDA is and it also appears that they are not very good at it. Another question that needs to be addressed by the Board within the RDA; is RDA in the real estate speculation business?
If the city really needs the money for The Junction, the sale of this property for that purpose verse what the city nets out of the sale verses the lost opportunity for the city to develop this property that the city has already identified when they bought it, as having great potential, can’t be justified. It is a poor business decision by the city to sell this property as opposed to selling something that will net more dollars to meet the financial needs of The Junction and again just reinforces what looks like a flimsy excuse by the administration to justify it’s actions to let a crony in on a good thing at resident’s expense.
Anon:
Four points to consider: (a) the purpose of RDAs is to get property into the hands of developers, businesses ets. so it can become income-generating property (b) the increase in value on the property almost certainly represents anticipation of the coming of Frontrunner and the Mall redevopment project. Whether a similar rise can be expected over the next year is, as you note, speculative. What the city made on the sale comes to about 24% appreciation. Depending on how long the city owned the property, that may be a decent return on undeveloped land. (c) In city hands, the money produces no tax revenue. As Bootjack property, it goes onto the tax rolls. So the city would have to deduct lost tax revenues from any appreciation in value over the next year. (D) Borrowing money to keep posession of the land means paying intererst on the loan, which would have to be subtracted from any appreciation on the land for the duration of the loan too, making holding it even more speculative.
In short, the sale of the land, provided it was done at at least fair market value [and no one has yet suggested otherwise] seems non-controversial to me. As does selling it to a Peterson company. Based on what we know so far, I can see only two problems in all this:
1. The land was evidently not put out for bids, so the suspicion is there [perhaps justified, perhaps not] that an open bidding process could have generated a higher price for the city. Can't help wondering what the city gained by not seeing if other buyers were out there, interested and willing to make an offer.
2. The administration deliberately withheld information about the buyer from the RDA board [aka City Council] when the RDA board asked for that information. I have to wonder, then, why the administration did that [since withholding the buyer's name seems to make no sense at all], which naturally has me [and apparently a lot of other people] wondering what else is the Administration not telling us? Why did they do something so foolish as trying to mislead the RDA board? What were they afraid would be learned?
Of course, it is possible that this is merely another example of Godfrey administration incompentence, of its truly astonishing ability to make the simple complex, and to create suspicion by bumbling that need not have been created at all. There's an old adage about not attributing to dishonesty what can be as easily explained by incompetence. [Occam's Razor of the adminstrative world.] Maybe that applies here.
But things have ccome to a sorry pass in Ogden when the best defence the Godfrey Administration can offer against suspicions about double dealing is its incompetence.
Election day can't get here fast enough from my POV. Ogden needs competent leadership, which means it needs new leadership. Soon.
What no one is considering is that the City acquired the Option property from the Bloom family by the use of eminent domain several years ago.
The property has sat vacant and still is and will continue to be vacant if Peterson does not exercise his Option.
How can Ogden justify its taking of the property because of blight in this instance?
And also what is the justification for Ogden City to not finish paying for the property until 2007 and that the amount finally paid in full was not adequate compensation to move the business and start over again in a new location.
This is my objection to the use of eminent domain by RDAs who devastate a business because they are hellbent to get the condemned property and then nothing happens.
What is your term for such a process?
"And also what is the justification for Ogden City to not finish paying for the property until 2007 and that the amount finally paid in full was not adequate compensation to move the business and start over again in a new location."
please gimme a reason:
Can you tell us when the RDA acquired the Bloom property?
In other words, how long a gap was there between the transfer of this property to the RDA entity, and the 2007 payoff?
Rumor also has it that the RDA (ie Executive Director Boss Godfrey) only paid off the property upon threat of a lawsuit from the Bloom family.
Any info that you can provide on this subject would be appreciated.
The possible abuses of ED powers by municipalities are legion. In Louisiana, some years ago, a parish [in Lousiana, Counties are called Parishes] used eminent domain powers to get land on which to build a set-back levee along the Atchafalaya River [prone to flood]. However, ultimately, the existing levee was raised and the set back levee was not built. Then oil/gas was discovered under the land the parish had seized. Former owners demanded that the land be returned to them for the price they were paid when it was siezed, since it had not been used for the public purpose for which it was seized. Parish contended it had acquired the land in good faith [it had meant to build a setback levee and only subsequently changed its mind], and that therefor the Parish owned the land, and the oil/gas under it. A state court decreed that the land [and its mineral wealth] had to be returned to the original owners. Good decision.
Similar case in California. State or city siezed land in LA I think for public museum construction/expansion. Project was then abandoned, and the city sold the land to parking lot operator who intended to operate a parking lot on it. Original owners sued to get the land [which had appreciated in price] back for what they were paid for it. I don't recall how that one came out in court.
ED powers, when exercised for economic development reasons rather than for traditional "public purposes" invite abuse by government authorities. The Utah legislature should not grant municipalities such powers again. But I suspect it will.
Republicans full of krap
“Gore says the oceans are rising 20 FEET!!!!! And the UN says 17 INCHES!
Are you embarrassed to be affiliated with the party of Pelosi, Murtha, Gore and (yawn) bore?
In fact, the glaciers are getting thicker.
What burns my butt, tho, is that this drivel is being pitched to school children!
For 8 bucks, in Australia, your flatulent cat can be carbon normalized! hah!! (With what? a Beano?) I don't like cats, and now I know why. The dang creatures are contributing to global warming.
The best joke of the season is that the global warming convention had to be cancelled because of the SNOW and cold temps back east!!”
Give me a break Republicans. Pres. Crook Cheney tried that lie and it didn’t work. Typical republicans trying to keep the lie going.
I’d definitely rather have Pelosi, Murtha, and Gore as my leader than the crooks in the REPUBLICAN party. Say look at it locally; Crook Crofts, Crook Grodfrey, Crook Greiner, Crook Bishoff.
You Republicans must be so proud.
Rudi,
Who would rather support?
Those who pay attention to science and the potential looming disaster of global warming and peak oil and it's effect on our propped-up economy...
Or the fanatics who have squandered hundreds of billions destroying ...
the infrastrucure of Iraq only to squander more attenpting rebuilding it,
who sacrificed over 3000 loyal and committed soldiers and 200,000+ Iraqis in this fiasco
who maintain the international drug war(cartel for our drug companies) and seek extradition of Marc Emery from Canada as the largest drug lord for selling cannabis seeds!!
these freaks who deny individual freedom and who spy on US citizens...
who are likely responsible for 9/11, at the very least ignored key intelligence in order to allow it to happen knowing it is quite utilitatrian for their police state policies...
come on Rudi, what's so bad with Pelosi, Murtha, Gore.
Their not blood thirsty killers (lizards)like the Neocons and the rest of the weakheart Republicans who support them.
Screw those fools. If you support them just because you think Dems are pinkos you have blood on your hands and just exercising American machismo because you think you're a real man.
Real men stand up for the rights of of all beings, not destruction for the fun of it.
Good SE Editorial
The SE has a good editorial today, called "Sliding Into Home," opposing HB233 which would seriously limit counties' and towns' ability to deny construction permits in geologically dangerous areas [i.e. prone to landslies, etc.] It's the last short editorial in a stack of 'em. Worth reading. Link is here, [It's on the free site, not behind the subcription wall.]
The Bloom property was condemned when the condemnation of land for the Lindquist ball park happened.
That idea germinated 10 years ago.
Dorothy Bloom has been gone from her property for at least 5 years or longer. When was Lindquist Field begun?
You realize, I hope, that the Bloom property was an old junk yard.
That did not fit Godfrey's elitist concept for downtown Ogden.
Kind of like no stores on 25th Street owned by East Indians or Vietnamese.
Curm, no matter how articulate you spin it with "newspapers," "talk shows" or "panel shows," the read was STILL ABOUT BLOGS!
Don't take it so personal folks, the article was just a little taste of THIS particular medium. Criticism accompanies EVERYTHING, as is so common here, so relax and enjoy a little bit coming back at ya'll. You'll survive it. If not, "Houston, you have a problem."
Does anyone know if the bloom property has had the EPA up here on the property to test the soil for all the anti-freeze that had been spilled on the ground, and the oil from the cars, and any and all other contaminates that may be dumped there.
I know that the city had to a pay a big clean up price for the pcb's that were dumped at the public works yard and new building five years ago.
do you remember how they had to dig out the whole city block down two feet and then refill it with clean soil, how much did that cost? will any of the administration tell us about that mis-hap.
Since Mrs. Bloom has finally received final payment for her land why don't you call her for her side of the story about Ogden City's attempt to put her out of business.
If she hadn't had access to some heavy borrowing she would not have survived.
This is the side of RDA that the general public has no concept goes on after every attempt to establish an RDA Project.
And Mrs. Bloom suffered such severe physical and emotional trauma from what the City did to her that she wound up in a wheelchair and can't walk.
I'm hoping she has recovered from the emotional damage done to her.
Anon:
You wrote: Curm, no matter how articulate you spin it with "newspapers," "talk shows" or "panel shows," the read was STILL ABOUT BLOGS!
Yes it was about blogs. The point I was making is that blogs are inherantly no more, or less, reliable sources of good information than any of the other places people get information. And that they ought to be approached with the same degree of caution and occasional skepticism as any other source of public information. That blogs are inherantly less reliable than other sources because they are blogs [which is what the article implied] I don't think is true.
Where's the spin there?
Curm,
You’re a piece of work. You continual effort to balance out everyone’s comments WITH YOUR LOGIC is perplexing. I don’t doubt you intelligence or your exposure to events whether it be something that you read or witnessed. What I have a question of is what you learned from that exposure. Your lack of an ability to tie events together is not logical, it goes beyond giving the benefit of the doubt, it’s naive.
A recent example of this was your immediate attack of comments suggesting that the city’s sale of the property on Wall was premature and a bad business decision that also reflected cronyism. The comments by the city official clearly demonstrated that the city bought the property because the city felt, at the time, that the property had great potential (I still do) and the other comments by the same representative pointed out that the city knows that the property is still moving up in price.
This wasn’t good enough for you and you had to point out the old adage “buy the rumor and sell the news” as a justification for why it wasn’t a bad decision by the administration to sell the property and suggested that the city made a great return on their investment, 24%. Wrong old buddy, the 24% return was made over 5 plus years and in my financial world that only at most a 4.8% annualized return (and once again I say that dealing with you might be as good as dealing with the city as a FOM). I could have made that type of return in CD’s with my bank! Clearly the city has not capitalized on the potential of this property.
Since the property was sold without an open bid your comment that no one can say for sure that the city didn’t receive a fair return is true, but in reverse the same can be said. We will never know how much some else might have paid. That point aside the real issue is the city identified this property for development, for the big picture, thought so much of it that they bought it, kicked the previous owner off the property, paid for their relocation and sat on the property to develop at a later date. Seems to me that they have now abandoned that strategy and have sold the property to someone that has no idea what he’s going to do with it and done this without a public process. Now just before that potential can be realized, the big picture complimented with this property, we sell it!
Additionally, your comments about the city borrowing the money is interesting in that it talks about lost tax revenue on a vacant piece of land that wouldn’t have generated much revenue, lets be honest and you talked about the cost of money (interest) that the city would have had to pay. Here again I point out that the city bought this property for it’s potential not it’s immediate return on investment and interesting enough it now come to light that city didn’t pay for the property until just recently (and embarrassingly for residents, we find out that the city only paid under threat of a lawsuit for non payment by the previous landowner and because of this sale).
You suggest that the administrations actions are a sign of incompetence, which I can’t disagree with as a general assessment, but these actions involving the Wall property were for one purpose and one purpose only and that was to make their unethical action attributable to more than just the administration. They wanted to include the City Council or in this case the RDA Board in their dealings so that no one in authority within the city government would protest their actions and so that it would look like the Board was in agreement with the transaction (which I’m confident that the majority was not). By withholding information from the Board (that would have been valuable to the Board in their ability to make an informed decision), until after the decision had been made public, they effectively silenced the Board from commenting on the transaction for fear that the Board would look incompetent themselves to the residents.
There is a lesson in this to the Council/Board members and that is that it’s better to look embarrassed for a short period of time than make a mistake that the community will remind you about for a lifetime. Believe me no one expects you members to walk on water.
As for Curm, I would suggest that you show some leadership in the discussions instead of being a back seat driver to those that are trying to contribute. By simple out blogging some one is not necessarily the equivalent to proving a point particularly when those comments revolve around technicalities or someone embellishments as opposed to their basic perceptions or their vision of what is going on in the big picture. I would suggest that being heard is not as important as accomplishing something. I would also suggest that not everyone sees your logic on all matters that you bring up but that they respect the effort you make within the big picture (and thus don’t always challenge your logic) and I feel that those same people deserve that same respect from you. As such why don’t you stop correcting people’s comments and start logically putting together the pieces in the big picture?
I suspect your response to this blog will be to immediately, will be to tear my logic apart from your point of view (waving the motto truth above all else) rather than sit back and ponder the bigger picture. I hope you disappoint me, otherwise I feel you will just validate my comments.
au contrire, anonymous. wethinks it's you who may be in need of a logic "refresher."
Mr. Thomasson committed the logical fallacy of relying upon a biased sample, citing eccentric examples of inaccuracies in two instances, and then recklessly imputing these errors to blogs in general.
Curmudgeon simply provided examples of circumstances where the same faulty logic could be used to slam other information sources.
The manifest error of imputing inaccuracy to the broadcast media in general because of the constant inaccuracy of Faux news was a fine example, we thought, of the manner in which Mr. Thomasson's faulty logic could be misused.
We think Curmudgeon's argument was logically "tight," actually, at least in this particular instance.
I agree with Rudi and Curm.
What we should be teaching and preaching, at all levels, is to be skeptical and wary of all media and all information sources.
If it's trivial or unimportant to you, let it pass. But if it's significant, or if it's important, then apply the legal principle of cui bono and the common-sense principle of "does this fit with the evidence I've examined already" to really take a critical look at information that comes your way — from whatever source. Even your mother.
(For example, if you closely compare my mother's representations to a trusted source such as snopes.com, you'll find a lot of inconsistencies. For example, my mother told me as truth the story of the "Lady of White Rock Lake", a Dallas, Texas version of the oldest urban legend out there.)
The old axiom "consider the source" applies here.
To assert, as Mr. Thomasson did, that blogs are some sort of outlier in the realm of human communication or fact-finding is, to put it bluntly, errant nonsense.
At the time Ogden condemned and seized the Wall Avenue property it was not about the value of the property.
It was a knee jerk reaction to the fact that Lindquist money was going away for the ball stadium unless something was done right away.
There was no planning for adjacent properties to the field..no Master Plan such as is talked about now even though Mr. Montgomery was in the same position he holds now.
It was grab the money for the ball park no matter how we do it and no matter who gets hurts in the doing.
Mrs. Bloom happened to get hurt a great deal, both physically and financially.
Do you know that at that time planning was being done for the antique cars of Browning's housed in the large building on Kiesel to be donated to Ogden City and the building would have been opened as a museum to house them? This would have drawn many hundreds to Ogden and created income.
The value of that donation to Ogden City would have been phenomenal. The Mayor at the time, Glenn Meacham, threw it away to hurry and get the land for Lindquist or they would be gone.
This smells of cronyism also considering who the principals were.
You wouldn't have learned about this bit of information without this blog. It does a great service for Ogden and Weber County.
Jesse Garcia was on the City Council at that time so he should know all the nitty-gritty about why Ogden lost the Browning antique cars museum.
Wonder if Jeske and Wicks and the new members on the Council have ever heard about this maneuver by the Ogden RDA?
If so, will one of you fill us in?
Anon [of the long post above]:
You wrote: I suspect your response to this blog will be to immediately, will be to tear my logic apart from your point of view (waving the motto truth above all else) rather than sit back and ponder the bigger picture. I hope you disappoint me, otherwise I feel you will just validate my comments.
Well of course I used my own point of view to reply. What other point of view should I have used? What you seem annoyed about is (a)that I disagree with you and (b) that I said so and (c) that I explained why I disagreed. Well, when people disagree with each other and explain why, they are having a discussion. And that is, I think, what WCF's purpose is: to provide a venue for discussion by all kinds of people, from all kinds of backgrounds, of all parties, all occupations, all interests, all faiths -- or none -- of public affairs in Ogden and Weber County. Civilly most of the time [but, sadly, not all the time.]
Be damn dull around here if we spent all our time agreeing with each other, wouldn't it?
Does seem a little odd to me, though, that after your long post disagreeing with me from your point of view, you complain about my having done the same. Still trying to figure that one out.
Oh, and by the way: disagreeing with someone does not constitute attacking them.
Can't help but notice that REPUBLICAN pulled the chain on you democrats.
He used humor to dig at you, but you dems came back with a lot of viciousness.
I've noticed that people who aren't sure of themselves or the ground they stand on are often mean.
Is that why Hillary, Nancy, Murtha, Reid, and the rest of them never have anything humorous or witty to say?
Jest wonderin'
I've noticed that Republicans make attempts at witticism while fresh bloood drips from their cold wretched hands.
Support murder and hegemony, you will wear it'scorn for life. I wouldn't be so proud...
Destroying a country and enabling the murder of a QUARTER MILLION Iraqis, world citizens of equal value as Americans, crushing family structures and engendering hate and retribution, ensuring a terrorist backlash forever...
how do you republicans sleep.
The spin: phony names, anonymous names, lack of REAL facts, editorializing NEWS events to a particular point of view, etc., etc., etc. Lots of spins on blogs and mostly from folks who just want to get their point across and damn the facts.
So esplain for us the facts... anonymous.
Seems like we've stuck a nerve, eh?
The problem with anonymous is obvious:
He can't handle the truth!
how many iraquis voted? your hatred has fogged any reasoning powers you ever possessed.
yep...you dems are mean as a junkyard dawg....
do you get all your egikashun from al franken and barbra steisand?
Anon at 4:05
Is that your Christian name or a "phony?"
Old Timer
Isn't the Browning building to which you refer the one that currently houses the Youth Impact program? Can't remember the details of the land transaction, but if anyone has any doubts about the value of the use of that property should pay Youth Impact a visit. Personally, I would much rather have that facility used as a vibrant, problem solving, after school program for kids than some kind of homage to old cars.
Yeah, I'll admit to being a Democrat. Proudly.
Curmudgeon, in your Feb. 23, 10;21 pm post, you listed a couple of problems with the way the administration handled the sale of the Bloom property to Bootjack LLC. In my opinion, there are more than a couple of problems with that sale, proving that this is "cronyism" at its best. First, the property was sold without the City knowing what the developer has planned for the property. I haven't been aware of the City doing that before -- they always insist on knowing to be sure that whatever is planned will meet zoning requirements. But Chris Peterson is a FOM so he's not required to reveal his plans (if he has any). Second, there is NO requirement/deadline date for Chris Peterson to begin construction on his project. The Union Station Foundation almost lost a chance to buy the Shupe-Williams property, because the administration said that they didn't believe they would have the money to do anything with the property after they bought it, and they required of all new buyers to begin construction within one year.
Hmmm. Why wasn't that same requirement made of Chris Peterson? I believe there is a State law that prohibits any elected official using his/her office to further their own or others' economic interests. It shouldn't be too hard to prove that Godfrey has been doing this for more than a year for Chris Peterson with all the City-paid advertisement for Chris Peterson's all-season resort in Malan's Basin, his gated community and the gondolas, and now selling this, the Bloom property without going through a public bid, thus not selling the property for the highest price possible, considering its ideal prime location next to the FrontRunner Station. Selling property for the highest return is also a requirement in the City's ordinances which the administration has ignored. The State law referenced above also states that a transaction or contract where an elected official uses his/her office to grant special privileges to another person SHALL BE VOIDABLE, and any officer or employee who knowingly violates this law may be dismissed from his/her job or removed from office.
City Council, the ball is in your court! What are you going to do about it? Are you chickens like the previous Council, who cancelled the release of the findings of their outside attorney about Godfrey's deal and settlement with Stuart Reid? If you don't have the balls to do something this time, you are also guilty of breaking the law by condoning the administrations actions. Remember, three of you will have to face the voters this fall, and, Jesse, if you're too weak to lead the Council in this, then you shouldn't waste your time and money running for mayor! Everyone will know that you're not the person to be mayor.
No nerve struck here, Rudi....seems like, with all you guys trying to support the blogs and attempting to make them into some kind of a true, journalistic enterprise, the struck nerve is on you.
No explanation necessary....the proof's in the posting, pal. Read the comments for what they are, personal agendas on the most part, editorializing, but not really factual. But again, what is? My position is that blogs don't monopolize the real goings on any more than anything else.
Again, don't take things so personal just because you run this blog.
"My position is that blogs don't monopolize the real goings on any more than anything else."
We don't recall ever having made such an assertion... pal.
We bloggers are here to stay, however, so you and your pal Mr. Thomasson would be wise to "deal with it."
Reading blogs isn't mandatory, BTW. Those who are content to be spoon-fed by the institutional media remain "free" to be told what to think. This works fine for some people, we guess.
And now that you mention it I suppose you and yous journalisticly-sloppy Mr. Thomasson DID strike a nerve...
An OLFACTORY NERVE... to be exact!
;-)
Have a nice day, anonymous.
To anonymous who posted at 9:30 am today,
I see more feed back and interaction here on this blog page than I've ever seen in the Standard Examiner. When it comes to local matters, I seen more diverse opinions and more input from a larger pool of people than I’ve ever seen with the local newspaper. I would dare say that is you want to know what local people think of local matters, this is where you come.
I take the Standard more for the state, national and world issues and the obits than I do for anything else. And sorry to say, but as far as the state, national and world stories that are published in the Standard those all come from other news agencies, more trusted sources than the tainted local rag.
The biggest difference is that here you see what people are really thinking rather than what the Standard has filtered (edited) and timed in it’s release of comments by the public or timed in it’s release of news stories.
If the Standard doesn't feel your comments are consistent with their view of things then they won't post your letters or comments at all. I am personally aware of this when it came to the urban gondola/golf course sale issue in which the paper didn’t want to hear any more comments from the residents as to their lack of support for these projects, so they simply stopped accepting Letters to the Editor in regards to this issue.
Similarly it was very difficult to get Mr. Wilson’s report on Malan Basin printed and they only did it after it had raised so much attention as to it being in existence and then they only did it only with a rebuttal article. We have this blog to thank for first publishing this report by Mr. Wilson. We also have numerous other stories about the goings on in this community that would never have seen the light of day if it weren’t for this blog.
I am tired of people telling me what they want me to hear instead of what is actually going on. The Standard and almost all printed press publications have got to evolve or they will die and they know it. Hell, the Standard even acknowledges this transition in the fact that they have their own (unsuccessful) web page. They try to run it with the same failing business strategy as their paper, i.e. tell the people what and only what the Standard wants them to know and tell them from the Standard’s point of view rather than just what the facts of the story are thus letting the reading public make up their own minds on the issue.
All I can say to you is that if the truth scares you and if one of the future ways of communicating and learning what is going on around you scares you, then stick with your Standard Examiner.
Anon [On the SE]:
I think the SE is a little more open to contrary opinion than you do. The extremely ill-advised ban on gondola-related letters applied to letters on both sides of the issue. But the period while the ban was in place was not one of the SE's proudest moments, I agree.
Blogs do have a particular advantage over newspapers: papers print once a day. Blogs go 24/7 so they can [or posters on them can] react rapidly to breaking news, and can hold discussions, conversations, about that news starting almost at once. Papers cannot do that. Blogs have another great advantage too: postings are not limited to ten or twelve column inches [or whatever] and so can provide much more detailed information about, say, Council meetings than the paper does, or can. [Think of the late Diane's much missed summaries of Council meetings.]
That said, the SE still provides coverage blogs do not, still breaks stories that would not otherwise have been broken, still provides a venue for expressing opinion [via letters, op eds] that will reach a great many people who don't read blogs. Or have computers at all. I don't think it's a matter of either/or with respect to blogs vs papers. It's a matter of both/and. Or should be.
Let me take advantage of the opportunity afforded by this blog,the paper does not allow,or if does, not in any timely fashion,though they allow a broader readership when they will print. I would like to publicly offer my sympathies,as well as my support for a large majority of the City Council.I would also like to impress on them that if they listen to the people, the people will support them.In defense of them I would like to say, theirs is a part time calling, this administration has been working overtime to disguise it's efforts to advance its deplorable agenda. THIS ADMINISTRATION is who is operating in secret against the public will,not the council.Being part time it would be impossible to keep up with this disengenuous administration. The Council must rely on their own staff, any of these recent gaffs are a result of staff failure. Please lets not attack and alienate the good people that have demonstrated a willingness to support the public will. Some battles may be lost,but we need to win this war to keep our foothills and Golf course,and not be burdened with an insane URBAN GONDOLA.Please offer the good people on the Council your support and understang while reinforcing your desires to retain our PUBLIC TREASURES.(take that Curm)
Well Rudi, you're probably right on this one (olfactory)....something here does smell....of sour grapes. Relax. Take the occassional hit....your blog certainly gives plenty of 'em and me thinks you're getting just a mite "touchy" here.
Remember, blogs, newspapers, radios, TVs....all can be turned on and off and are, in most cases, editorialized opinion.
As for Thomasson....you'd have been much better off stating THAT than going to all this "struck a nerve" nonsense. The guy's simply another writer that fired on blogs. No more, no less. My position: just pointed out an interesting article.
As we all know, the newpaper industry is going through a very major shake out period. Their traditional readers are dying off, which of course makes the likes of me and Curmudgeon pretty nervous sometimes.
It is interesting to see the different approaches that the news papers are taking to try and survive the coming of the grim reaper. Some seem to be trying to deny the reality of the coming of the net (Mr. Reaper) and are half heartedly trying to stay with the times with their half assed IT efforts. They "tease" the reader with a couple of freebees, then they want you to pay up - even the guy in Topeka that wants to read his aunt Tilly's orbit. Not that this makes them bad guys, afterall it takes a lot of dough to gather all that news and disseminate it. I think the Standard may be at this point.
Others seem to be embracing the inevitable free access to all information with gusto and have pretty nice web sites with access to almost anything the traditional news paper reader wants. I think the best example, and the best web presence in Utah, is the DNews. Easy to navigate and easy to read, and free so far.
So the DNews apparently is making it on the web with the ad revenue they collect there, and the Standard maybe can't make that work. It will be interesting to see which model proves out, if either does.
The DNews, so the SLC press rumour mill says, is somewhat on hard times. They have been cutting back all the way around, including the woman who has been covering the land of Oz - Miss Brandy. I think she has done a real good job covering the local Godfrey, et al doings for God's own newpaper. I for one will miss her writing. I hear they have passed the Ogden beat off to some other poorly paid and highly worked reporter. Hope the rightous readers of the DNews will still get a true story out of Ogden once in a while.
Blogs are only as good as the blogmeister. If such person is smart, worldly, curious, honest, aggresive and a hell of a good editorial writer, then the blog will have a good chance of being widely read and respected. This could explain the success of this blog versus the Standard's and Chapman's sorry assed attempts at this medium. (No offense Dustin, but ya just didn't have the chops for this game)
The blog's "comments" from the peanut gallery kind of fall in several catagories. In one respect they are like the comics, some intentionally funny, some so utterly stupid that they are funny, and some so sadly true that they are funny. (Lot's of Godfrey stuff comes to mind here)
The comments can also be hot flash news items from folks in the know. They also can flush out current news items with tons of new information and different perspectives, often from people on the inside who post anonymously.
Comments can even be promotional or cheap advertising, like when some one posts info on obscure events happening in the community, like ballet, local film festivals, etc. Also in this category are the occasional, and always mind numbing, chants from the Gondolistas and Godfreyites.
Blogs in general are in a building phase. There will be many that come and go, and a few will stay. Just like the newspapers did in their infancy. Ogden alone has had a dozen or so newspapers in our history. The Standard is the survivor of two very early papers, the Standard and the Examiner who merged I believe back in the twenties.
With out the Standard's news gathering resourses even this blog would have a difficult time with subject matter. It is with great regularity that our blog meister tees off on some article or action by the Standard. He whoops up on them, and he pats them on the back, all the time.
If the newspapers all finally die off, then the blogs are going to have a difficult time in aquiring the news, at least stuff that is half way dependable or verifieable. The door of course will be wide open to every looney bull shit artist on earth that has access to a computer and thinks he is the only repository for the truth on earth! (some folks herein perhaps?)
And finally, speaking of the Standard, I note with great sadness the passing of one of Ogden's great newspaper men - William Glasmann.
Big Bill was a gentleman of the first order. An honest, dedicated and hard working man without an ounce of pretense in his whole being. He was the son of William and the Grandson of Mayor William Glasmann. He also of course is the father of our very own Bill Glasmann of recent City Council fame. Big Bill did a whole lot for Ogden during his 88 years, and he never asked for anything in return.
I'm proud to have known him a little bit these last 35 years or so.
From one Ogden boy to another - "Thanks Mr. Glasmann you will be missed, it might be a good long time till we see the likes of you again"
Ozboy:
Nicely done. I'd only note that the SLTrib and DN [both running free websites] have a much larger circulation base to draw on, and so can generate a lot more from online ads than the SE.
I'll also note something else: the SLTrib does not index most of its legislative coverage on its site. [It's search engine will not bring up everything that's in the print edition.] I very much prefer the SE's on-line option [via subscription] which brings up an exact photo copy of every page, every item, in the print edition. Nothing left out. Wish the SLTrib offered the same.
Didn't know Mr. Glasman as a publisher [and editor?] but have heard good things. One of the things I find... I was going to say lacking in the SE, but lacking's not the right term.... One of the things I find less robust in the SE than I would like it to be is a committment to investigative journalism and holding those in power accountable for what they do, and say, routinely, every time, all the time. [Yes, all officeholders, all parties, all levels.] I wish I found more of that approach to covering government [local and state] more often in the SE than I do.
But overall, it's important that the paper do well, it is worth reading regularly, I think, and it has been showing some signs of improvement of late. [If there was a smiley for "fingers crossed" I'd put it here.]
Some here have in the past campaigned for having the SLTrib open an Ogden bureau and recommended folks take the SL Trib instead of the SE. Bad idea, I think. Ogden events will never be more than a pimple on the backside of SL City news for the Trib. Ogden needs its own daily newspaper [especially since it does not have its own TV stations].
Good post, Oz.
John,
Great letter!
I hope now that you've thrown down the gauntlet, that the Council will take the challenge. I'm glad to read that the sale can be voided.
We are in a lot of trouble if Jesse runs for mayor again. A sure win for Godfrey or his clone.
IF Jesse will step up to his job as Chair....he can do a great service for Ogden. I hope he will not run for mayor...he will lose, becaue a very large segment of this city will not vote for him.
AND, if he does his job properly on the Council, he will serve all of Ogden by leading the Council to not be rubber stamps, but clear thinking and voting members who will do their due diligence. Under his good leadership the Council will learn to ask questions, demand the answers and then vote accordingly.
Jesse has more than 14 years experience on the Council, I hope he will continue to lead the Council. He can be more effective as a LEADER there, than running for mayor.
Thanks for your kind words, Ozboy. There is now an unfillable void in my life.
My condolences to you and your family, Bill, on the passing of your wonderful father.
My thanks, Sharon....he did love his family, his newspaper and city. We'll miss him beyond words.
Bill, I, also, would like to add my condolences. You are right -- your father left an unfillable void in your life. Just know that time eventually will lessen the poignancy of his absence. There really isn't any advice that anyone can give you on how to deal with the loss as it is a personal and individual challenge with which each of us must learn to cope. You are so lucky to have had such a wonderful father, and you can be so proud of the examplary life he lived. No one can take the memories from you that he made with you and your family. May they be your consolation at this time.
Bill, I want you to know that I am still your friend. Our friendship went too deep to end just because you chose to leave the Council. I want you to know that I appreciated your advice and help, and I miss exchanging thoughts and ideas with you. My thoughts and prayers are with you and your family. May the Lord bless and comfort you.
Dorrene
Rudi;
It just blows me away how you support Republicans? I like your words of wisdom, however for the life of me; I don't understand how you support the Republican Candidates most of the time?
All your issues you have with sitting republicans are exactly what we Democrats have been saying for years.
Quiet complaining. You greedy people. Just give your property to Mayor Godfrey and Chief Senator Greiner, so they can sell them to their buddies so they'll have funds for their Election Campaigns. Goosshh
LOL, Democrat! We've learned through a lifetime of political participation that the best way to effect political change is from the inside.
All politics is local, and your blogmeister continues to work from within the GOP party to promote the ideals of small & frugal government, jealous protection of individual civil liberties, and non-intervention by government in foreign and traditionally-private domestic matters.
Whether you're aware of it or not, the US Republican party has been involved for some time in an internal civil war, pitting the evil neoCON faction (who until very recently held the reins of party power,) against paleoconservatives like us, who espouse the aforesaid values.
The political pendulum is now swinging back in our faction's favor; and now is thus no time to jump ship.
As for the Democrats, who have a long history of Big Government, Big Spending and Big Interference in civil liberties (try the 2d Amendmen,)foreign and private domestic affairs we say, "No Thanks," despite encouraging noises we've been hearing recently from some Democrat politicians that even the neoCONS have gone too far in their love of BIG GUMMINT! Switching parties now, in our view would be tantamount to "jumping from the frying pan into the fire."
We can't forget that Hillary is still the front-runner for the Democratice Presidential nomination; and Hillary's the one who attempted to socialize 1/7 of the US economy during the first year of the Clinton Administration.
And being active in local GOP politics doesn't mean the paleos amongst us support or condone anything the neoCONS have done in the last seven years. Nor does it mean we'll support the neoCONS in the future.
Hope that clears it up for yous.
I don't like to debate national issues on WCF, but Rudi has tossed up such a fat slow hanging curve over the plate, that I can't lay off taking a cut at it....
1. "All politics is local." Here Rudi quotes a great Democratic House Majority Leader, Tip O'Neil. Rudi's consulting great Democratic leaders for guidance on how the American political system works is very wise of him, and gives me hope that his redemption is possible.
2. Rudi's goals are "small & frugal government, jealous protection of individual civil liberties, and non-intervention by government in foreign and traditionally-private domestic matters." My my my... Let's see now, the last president to actually balance the budget [despite endless Republican claims since the days of Warren G. Harding that only Republicans care about balanced budgets] was... well, my stars... a Democratic President, William Jefferson Clinton. Imagine that. And the administrations that have done worst of late? Let's see: Reagan and Daddy Bush in 12 years, tripled the national debt. Tripled it. Bush Jr. has tripled it again over six years. Hmmmm....
How about "jealous protection of individual civil liberties?" OK, the party that passed the Civil Rights act: Democrats under Johnson. Party that backed suspension of habeus corpus and approved incarceration without trial or recourse to law for anyone --- yes, folks, anyone --- President Bush designates an "enemy combatant" [including American citizens]: the Republican party. Imagine that.
"Non-Intervention in Foreign matters." Uh huh. OK, Clinton intervened [as part of a real military coalition] in Bosnia. US combat deaths: zero. Bush invasion of Iraq chasing non-existent WMDS: US dead 3100 plus and counting. Wounded approaching 30,000. Cost into the trillions. And we are still, with more on the way and no end in sight. As the Republican Congress followed The Precious Leader in lockstep party-driven obedience right over the cliff, taking the rest of us with them. Imagine that...
Finally, a goal of "non-intervention in traditionally private matters." Uh huh... and which party is it that wants government peeking into American bedrooms, deciding what it is ok for consenting adults to to and not do? [Calling Utah Republican Buttars! Emergency call for Utah Republican Buttars! There's a married couple up there in Park City that may be doing something your minister wouldn't approve of. We need a new law to stop it!]
And the final irony: Matthew Godfrey is a Republican.
Rudi, you're in the wrong party.
Curmudgeon, have to disagree with you about Godfrey being a Republican. He is registered as a Republican in order to get elected! Look at his politics! Look at his family! All DEMOCRATS!
John:
Well, I stopped using crystal balls and mind-reading techniques to divine someone's true politics long ago. The man is a Registered Republican and runs as one. Good enough for me. Passes the "duck test" handily: if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and registers as a duck... it's a duck. [grin]
Dorrene, thank you for your kind words. They show that life in and of itself has much more meaning than personal, political agendas, especially at a time like this.
Again, thank you.
Didn't see Godfrey at either Repub convention....haven't seen him at a Lincoln Day Dinner either.
Republican? With Allen as his father in law?
LOL, Curm.
The demoCRAT party would be great, if its leadership were composed of level-headed, conservative, common-sense folks like Ogden's Neil Hnnsen.
As it stands, you folks have the baggage of the Hillarys, the Bill and the Pelosis to deal with.
Howbout you clean up your party and we'll clean up ours?
Deal?
And yes. THe O'neil quote is one of my favorites. I often invoke it (with attribution) at GOP Party events.
Didn't Tip O'Neil steal that line from Abe Lincoln, who in turn first saw it in an old Robert Altman political film?
The modern day Republicans are a mix of 50% old tax and spend Democrats, and 60% pure Nazi. A real bad mix if you ask me.
This includes Rudi's new idol Greiner, except the dark one is probably more like 90% Gestapo.
This from a former life long Republican sympathizer.
oh hell, curm...you blew all your 'competency reputation' with your blast against Republicans.
You, a democrat?
Seems that one of your idols blew the opportunity to 'get' Bin Laden when he was offered on a platter.
A word to the wise! There is a conman running around the Weber area that is from California. He claims to be some kind of development mogul. However, after doing some checking, it turns out that he is a high school dropout, barely solvent and has had run-ins with the law in California. Before you enter into any deals, hire a PI and verify all of his grandiose claims before parting with your hard earned money.
New comments are not allowed.