We'll let our gentle readers be the judge.
The Standard-Examiner's Jeff Demoss reports this morning what has already been discussed here in a lower thread, i.e., that House Rep. Neil Hansen's House Bill 255 (prohibition of traffic citation quotas) was stalled yesterday in Senate committee by a tied 2-2 vote.
Whereas Representative Hansen contends that a traffic citation quota system exists in Emerald City, Senator Greiner continues to alternate between flatly denying the existence of such a system -- to a possibly tacit admission -- that "traffic citations are [merely] a small part of sweeping performance evaluations that rate officers in 18 criteria."
Similar to being "only partly pregnant," we guess.
Being the curious type, we rustled up copies of OPD's Performance Evaluation Standards (PEP) sheets, and uploaded them in PDF format to our archive storage site. In this connection we link here as an example the PEP sheet applicable to Emerald City's Traffic Officers. Interested readers can scroll down to the bottom of the left colum of page three, where you'll come across the column labeled "citations," setting forth traffic citation standards for "traffic officers." We'll leave it up to our readers to be the judge as to whether a system of traffic citation quotas actually exists here in Emerald City.
We'll also note parenthetically that numeric citation standards exist for all other Emerald City officers, including Traffic Master Officers, Uniform Division Officers and Uniform Division Master Officers and plainclothes.
For the moment we'll resist the impulse to submit the attched PEP sheet to our own micro-analysis. Instead we'll leave it up to our readers.
Query: Traffic citation quota system in Emerald City or not?
You be the judge.
Don't let the cat get your tongues.
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27 comments:
I do not believe that this PEP sheet tells the whole story.
It only gives the formula for calculating the points, it doesn't tell you how the city manipulates those points to come up with rather an officer gets a certain raise or not.
As I recall from when this issue was hot, there is - or was?, a provision that said that for an officer to qualify for a raise he had to score so many points in the "Traffic Ticket" part - period.
Check it out, or as Paul Harvey implies - find the rest of the story!
The S-E website is reporting, quoting Mayor Godfrey, that the off-duty policeman hero in the Trolley Square shootings is Ogden Police Dept Ofc. Ken Hammond, a six-year veteran.
Here's hoping his quick thinking and definitive action will result in a hefty raise and lots of public recognition, regardless of how many traffic tickets he's written in the last year.
I believe I speak for all Ogden's citizens when I say, "Ken Hammond, we're awfully proud of you."
Absolutely.
Greiner said there isn't a quota system..but further into the article he says the number of tickets written is a 'part of it'...so which is it?
Bravo to Officer Hammond for drawing fire to himself.
More from Ofc Hammond:
"I didn't do anything that any of the guys wouldn't have done."
Y'know, true heroes always say that.
(There was an article in the Jan 9 2007 New York Times on exactly this.)
Hammond is our hero!
Too bad Greiner doesn’t have the same balls to stand up and fight the bad guys.
The line Officers are fighting blue collar crimes on a daily basis. Mean while Hammond’s boss thinks its ok to legalize white collar corruption.
ted, I don't have the links and probably won't get them but I am pretty sure you are wrong.
That was what administration kept saying. It is one of many things that go into the overall rating.
Of course, it is unlikely that if you get 0 in one part of your evaluation you are going to get top marks in the rest.
The bottom line is that cops catch lots of criminals by making traffic stops and questioning people and running checks on them. And they get better at spotting the bad guys by doing this. So it stands to reason if they aren't stopping people and handing out tickets then they are not getting better at spotting the bad guys.
Greiner also breaks the law when he is told to not run because of the federal hatch act. Did any one ever here what the ruling was on his case.
Also the city does have a quota according to the hb 255 and how many other officers in other dept around the state have these so called performace evaluations.
If you saw the live interview with Officer Hammond you have to admit he came across really great.
I kept watching Chief Greiner. He looked like he had swallowed a bushel of sour grapes.
He couldn't be pleasant even when one of his officers was being recognized.
Robbers:
The Hatch Act matters is still being reviewed by the U.S. Justice Department. It's their call.
Jest:
Office Hammond did indeed come across well. He could teach Hizzonah and Chief Greiner a thing or two about effective public relations, I think. I did notice from the paper that Officer Hammond's primary assignment is traffic.
Did I miss something? I didn't hear or see Chief Greiner recognize Officer Hammond...tho the SLC Chief did!
I heard the radio interview as the press conf was going on...the mayor gave brief (thankfully) remarks and turned the time over to Hammond. I didn't hear Greiner, nor did I see him on the TV coverage.
I did see Hammond on the Today show this am. Great young man!
If Greiner had something good to say..pls let me know.
I did not see Greiner recogize Hammond.
The only thing I heard Greiner say was that the questions were repeats and he closed down the interview.
Mayor Godfrey opened the interview and actually smiled most of the time.
I wathed the whole thing on TV and I thought that Godfrey looked like a little kid that someone had slapped in the face and told to stand in the corner, Which he did. Godfrey doesn't know how to give praise to anyone let alone the police officers. Ditto for Greiner.
Nancy
From what I heard the mayor say at the beginning of the press conference...I thought his remarks were appropriate and SHORT for a welcome change.
I am disappointed in Greiner. Does he ever go to bat for his men?
Patton would've slapped the hell out of HIM!!!
Mercy Livermore you asked me, how I feel about the ratio of illegals to citizens is to the crimes in Ogden? Well my personal beliefs are.
1) Every human being is a Child of God.
2) U S A is the land of liberty and refuge from oppression.
3) I believe in Justice and Mercy!
I strongly feel that Mexican Immigrants are oppressed because of unbridled Capitalism and that’s why their fleeing to America. I feel that America is leaning to the same policies that Mexico has. They believe that less government is better. I feel the U S Government needs to make it easier for all immigrants to become U S citizens. This will allow us to be safer because we’ll know who is here and why and what their doing. Us Cops don’t want to be playing Costopo. Us Cops want to be able to take the true criminals off the street. We don’t want to put Moms and Dads in jail that are here for trying to earn a living for their families. This happens way too much, and IT TRULY BREAKS MY HEART.
Every person who breaks the law must be properly punished. We need to have a government that sticks to services and not playing developers. Economic Development belongs to the private sector. When local and federal government shells out our tax money to rich businesses, its Robin Hood in reverse. It takes funds away from Public Safety and Public Education.
p s Thank you for your kind words.
In Re: Just Cop
Just Cop's observations --- I feel the U S Government needs to make it easier for all immigrants to become U S citizens. This will allow us to be safer because we’ll know who is here and why and what their doing. Us Cops don’t want to be playing Costopo. Us Cops want to be able to take the true criminals off the street. We don’t want to put Moms and Dads in jail that are here for trying to earn a living for their families. This happens way too much.... --- raise an important point. Without getting into a debate about what the Federal government should or should not do about illegal immigration [and it is a federal responsibility, not a state one, and no, I don't have the answer, presuming there is a the answer, which I doubt] --- the interest of Utahan's is in having the police apprehend criminals [and I mean those who commit the kind of crimes that endanger us all: assault, burglary, theft, DUI, homicide and so on.] To do that, they need the cooperation of all who live here [as citizens, legal residents or illegal residents]. Which is why the pending bill to empower Utah police to enforce immigration law is a bad idea.
Refugees from other nations --- economic or political refugees --- already often come from nations in which police forces are ruthless agents of repression, or are by American standards hopelessly corrupt. Such refugees are skittish about involvement with police for any reason and many have not been brought up -- and with good reason -- to think of police as people to whom you go when you see crime or are a victim of it. It takes the police a lot of time and effort to even begin overcoming that attitude.
If Utah police are now made into INS enforcement agents [which all testimony so far suggests they do not want to be], it seems probable to the point of certainty that immigrant cooperation with police in the apprehension of real criminals [from gang-bangers on up] will decline dramatically. People are not going to report a crime or aid police in catching criminals if they're afraid that by doing so they risk deportation.
I am afraid that if the Utah Republican Legislature passes this act, as it seems it will, we will see painfully and rapidly the "law of unintended consequences" illustrated all over the state. We will have made it harder for law officers to do their jobs. Not wise. Not wise at all.
Curm..
You nailed it. I'm not very well read nor spoken. But I believe that Cops need more tools of the trade and more Officers to find and catch the bad guys. Especially when it comes to pedophiles, rapists, murders, drug dealers and users, robberies, and burglaries. As for illigals, Cops don’t care if their here legally or not, we just want to protect people; so they can go to church, work, school and play. The politicians must realize that Public Safety, Public Education, Public Transportation should be the main focus.
By the way I’ve had the privilege of working side by side with Officer Hammond and Officer Jones. These are top Cops. They’ve made me a better person and Officer.
Rudi and all, thanks for your support of Cops.
Dear Cop,
We're all children of God...but some children are lawbreakers.
ILLEGAL immigrants are lawbreakers...otherwise they wouldn't be ILLEGALS, right?
I don't think I implied being cruel or demeaning to anyone you stop in the exercise of your duties. But, my questions to you weren't answered.
I read the papers...and nearly every "most wanted' in the top of Utah...is Hispanic. Are these criminals all legal citizens? I also read that some have escaped to Mexico. That makes me think they MAY be returning 'home'....am I wrong?
Ogden has an internationally known hero now bringing honor to our city and your force. The officer who tried to save the baby from the burning house is a hero too...unfortunately the SE didn't think it important to name him.
But Ogden also has a reputation for crime. Many people are afraid to drive Monroe and adjoining streets after dark.
Does Greiner have an aggressive plan for stopping crime in Ogden? Now that he's a senator, legally or illegally??), is he giving enough time and effort to the city?Yes, we're all children of God...some children appreciate this country and obey the laws of the land. Others break the law and prey on the innocent.
I have no sympathy for them.
Dear Cop. I too am a fellow Ogden Police Officer and I do care if there are illegals here. I find it disrespectful to respond to a call and have the "victim" ask if I speak Spanish as though I am expected to. I find it an insult to ask a suspect for identification only to be presented with a Mexican Identification Card which I can not read because it, obviously, is written in Spanish.
I have long had the belief that if I was to move to another country which did not speak English that I would and should learn that language. I should not expect law enforcement or others within that country to bend over for me because I refuse, yes I do mean REFUSE, to learn their language. I find it offensive that all over the country signs, lables, and many other things are now printed in two languages. This country was founded upon the English language. The Constitution, Declaration of Independence and all laws were and are written in English. Not with Spanish subtitles.
I am sorry if I have gone off topic from the original story line here, but I wanted it known that there ARE officers here who take illegal criminals seriously.
Anon on Language:
You wrote: This country was founded upon the English language. The Constitution, Declaration of Independence and all laws were and are written in English.
Well, in fact, the nation's ethinc and linguistic origins are much more mixed than you suspect. In colonial New Amsterdam [later New York City], for example, which was founded by the Dutch not the English, half a dozen languages were commonly spoken on the streets and in conducting business, routinely. It was a very cosmopolitan place. Merchants who couldn't handle three or more languages in the course of doing their business were at a significant disadvantage.
In Pennsylvania, during the Revolution and the years following, about a third of the voting population was of German origin, and their primary language was German, not English. The Constitution, during the campign for its ratification in Pennsylvania, was printed in German to insure German voters' support for the document.
And of course the original European settlers of New Mexico, most of South Texas and Arizona and much of California were Hispanics and spoke as their primary language, or exclusively, Spanish.
Then of course there the native Americans who were here before the European arrival, who continued to speak their own languages long after Columbus and long after the establishment of the nation in the Revolution as well.
Of course immigrants coming to a new land would be better off learning the language of the new land. And nearly all of them [except the very old] want to do so and try to do so as quickly as possible. English Language courses [subsidized by the public] in major immigrant cities like NY have long long waiting lists. Studies have been done examining the rate at which Spanish-speakers arriving in the US [and their children] learn English. Turns out it's at exactly the same rate at which arriving Italians, Germans, Poles, etc. learned English when they came by the millions in the late 19th and early 20th century. By the third generation [the grandchildren of the immigrants], English had become the primary language and in many cases the only language spoken. It's proceeding at about the same rate among new immigrants today. No discernable difference.
I have no doubt dealing with non-English speakers makes the job of the police more difficult. And I agree massive illegal immigration is a problem [for which I have no good solution at hand, and certainly no quick and easy one]. But the notion that this has always been a one language nation, from the day of its founding, is just not true. Our linguistic history is much richer than that. Always has been.
Does not bother me in the least to see a business advertising that its employees speak Spanish. [Hell, we'd be much better of as a nation if everyone spoke at least two languages fluently. I wish I did, but I'm one of those grandchildren of Italian immigrants who grew up speaking and reading exclusively English, except for a swear word or three or four I picked up on those occasions when my immigrant grandfather caught me doing something unbelievably stupid. Come to think of it, now that I recall how often I did dumb things, maybe there were more than three or fours words I picked up that way.]
So I don't have a problem with businesses offering service in Spanish to potential customers. Or Italian. Or French. Or Vietnamese. Or whatever. Nor with government agencies being able to explain things to recent immigrants in their own languages. No problem at all, provided service is also always available in English, as it is.
'Fraid we'll have to agree to disagree on this.
Curm, I appreciate your point of view and what you say makes a lot of sense. I also agree somewhat. What frustrates me is that the expectation that we (U.S. Society) must be accomodating for them.
For example, I do not believe that the Utah State Drivers License test should be offered in Spanish. By doing this it gives one no desire or ambition to learn English to be able to communicate. Also why only Spanish? There are many other languages and people who speak those languages. How am I to communicate with a person on a traffic stop who has a legal (state issued) drivers license but they have not bothered or even cared to learn English? Personally I would be embarassed and ashamed to not be able to communicate with those in a country I have chosen to live.
How can anyone live in a country for 10+ years and not be able to speak the language? Believe me it happens more than I care to say. I know immigrants who moved here from European countries and have taken the time to learn English. They realized that they must do so to function normally. They immigrated here in the 1950's with their children. They did everything they could and earned their citizenship as soon as they could. Their grandchildren (now adults) are the first generation U.S. Citizens in their family. They brought with them their heritage from their country and their grandchildren still embrace that heritage. Their grandchildren speak both the language of their homeland as well as English. Many even speak a third language they chose to learn in U.S. Schools.
I agree with you Curm that immigrants want to learn the language of the new land. Unfortunately it is the illegal immigrants who chose not to. They thumb their noses at U.S. Border laws and enter this country illegally, which is thier first crime. Granted, many want to only live here peacefully and not commit additional crimes. I have dealt with many people from Mexico who are the victim of crimes and would not have cause to be in contact with the police. Unfortunately many of these people have not bothered to learn English. It is frustrating to have a 7 year old have to translate for me because their parents do not speak English.
Sorry I could go on and on, but I should stop there. Curm, thanks for the lively discussion.
Anon:
My thanks as well for the exchange. Given me a little better grasp of how frustrating it must be to be unable to do the job you need to do as well as possible because the people, sometimes victims I imagine, you need to speak to cannot speak to you. And I think you're probably right, at least in good measure, about distinguishing between legal immigrants being generally not only willing, but eager to pick up English if they don't already have it, and illegal immigrants being significantly less so. Particularly if the latter still look upon some other country as "home" and their stay here as temporary.
I recall growing up in a home for a long time with my immigrant grandfather, where Italy was called, always "the old country." He never called it "home." Hadn't really noticed that until I was reading your post and began remembering.
Thanks again. Enjoyed the exchange.
Oh hell, Curm...just respond to Another Cop's frustration!!!
I hate that I'm told to 'press one for English'!!
This is MY country, dammit...let THEM press whatever number for their language if they continue to refuse to learn English.
If you moved to Mexico..or even went there to work temporarily...you'd jump through many hoops just to get in.
And, you'd have to have CASH to get all your paperwork filed! And enuf to bribe the bureaucrats. You would not be allowed to dissent. No carrying the Am flag...and Mexico's UPSIDE DOWN...
I'm sick of liberals and bleeding hearts crying about 'profiling' and being 'politically incorrect'. Just watch the stories on how many of our Hispanic residents are shooting each other and innocent bystanders too. What are the names of the thugs who are committing home invasions, robberies, stabbings, and drug dealings?
Most are Hispanic names. Unfortunately, we read more and more Polynesian names also.
SLC and Ogden are being overrun with these criminals. I'd like to see cops allowed to ask for their green cards, proof of insurance, registration...just like they do the rest of us.
I'd like to see ILLegals deported! Oh, they've made babies?? Sorry....take the kid with you too.
Now Curm, before you give a rant about my insensitivity, I know that we have many hardworking, upstanding residents in the Top of Utah who want a 'better life' in the United States. Well, that privilege, and it IS a privilege to live here, comes with the responsibility to learn our language, PAY for their babies' births, learn to read and write and help their children and be involved with their kids' education. They don't show up for Teacher/Parent conferences.
Of the eight children my husband and I are teaching reading to...SEVEN are little Mexican kids. Some have no books in their homes...and they tell us that mom and dad (if there are two parents in the home) do NOT read with or to them.
Unfortunately, too many children suffer the same fate. But, what I have observed is that these Illegals think they can send their kids to school and the teachers will have the burden of teaching English while parents continue to speak Spanish or whatever in the home. The kids can't keep up in any other subjects because the teachers teach in English and the little kids can't read or understand well enough to progress.
Thus, we see many dropping out of school at a very early age.
What do these kids do all day? Why they vandalize. What else is there to do? Or they take up the lucrative trade of drug dealing. Oh, and they make lots of babies for us to pay for. Having 13 and 14 year old kids raising kids is ensuring generational dependence on our deep pocketed welfaare system.
I volunteered for several years at the hospital..Non English speaking rsidents knew how to register for free medical care, maternity care, and they surely do know where the welfare office is.
Try getting that for yourself in Mexico!
BTW, I'm only 2nd generation American. My grandparents learned English....no one opened a Norwegian or Swedish bank to accommodate them. My grandmother became a nurse and my gandfather opened a photography studio, They learned and spoke English and so did my dad and his siblings. It was expected. They were grateful to be here and they became naturalized citizens and made contributions to their community.
Sharon:
Please note, none of my posts so much as mentioned "profiling" or "political correctness."
As for for "Oh hell, Curm... just respond to another Cop's frustration," well, Anon seemed to find the conversation [and it was a conversation] worthwhile, as did I.
BTW, your suggestion that local police in the rest of the country act as INS enforcement agents is, I think, incorrect. In most places, they do not.
As for what I'd have to do if I moved to Mexico... sorry, I don't see the point. This isn't Mexico. I am in no way responsible for what the Mexican government requires of immigrants or non-Spanish speakers, nor for how it treats its own citizens. The only thing I'm responsible for [and in the same measure as all other US citizens] is how my government acts.
Is illegal immigration a problem? Of course it is. Has our government done little or nothing to control it over the past two decades? Yup. Has that policy of not-so-benighn neglect served the needs of big-bucks contributing businesses, especially agra-business? Absolutely. As a result of which some [this seems to be the current consensus guess] 11 million illegals are now resident in the United States. Has congress ever seriously gone after the companies employing illegal immigrants? Nope. [How many Swift and Co. execs got arrested in the recent sweeps of meat packing plants, including the one up in Cache Valley? Answer: none.]
Can we catch all and deport all illegals or even say 75% of them? No. [If for no other reason than the electorate and every Republican member of Congress would scream against the massive, yes massive increase in taxes it would take to fund that kind of round up.] So the question becomes, what is the best way to deal with what two or three decades of government inaction has created?
Beats the hell out of me. I don't know. But I do know that occasional raids on one or two or ten meat packing plants as elections come on will do damn little to solve the problem. Neither will promises from congress to build a 700 mile wall along the Mexican border [the money for which I note the Republican Congress failed to appropriate following the much-ballyhooed "build a wall" vote. But no money to acutally build it. Imagine that.] Nor will turning Utah cops into INS agents do much, except to reduce the amount of time police spend working on violent crime and property crimes [every arrest or detention involves lots of paper work and often court time as well --- ask them].
Much of what many today are calling for involves things that make the advocates feel good but will not accomplish much by way of stemming illegal immigration or removing illegals now here to someplace else. They're "feel good" proposals some of which may have unhappy side effects for Americans, as I and some police, though not all, think the bill to turn them into INS agents will have.
The problem is large, but band-aid short term "feel good" solutions aren't the answer, seems to me. So we will have to agree to disagree on this one. One of the few things the Bush administration seem actually to be putting some thought into [unlike for example the Iraq war] is the illegal immigrant problem. I don't know if its proposed solution is the best one, but it does show some evidence of trying to deal with the situation we face, not some idealized "deport 'em all" feel good chimera.
The situation is such a mess, we may have to face the fact that there may be no good solution, just a series or more or less incomplete and partial ones. It is very American to assume that all problems have good solutions if only we can find them. Sometimes that just is not so. Sometimes the best you can do is find the least worst solution. This may be one of those times. May be. So far, no one, either party, has presented anything that seems to me both a practical and practicable solution to the problem as it exists on the ground, all over the US, in the real world.
Didn't accuse YOU of being for 'profiling', Curm...
I'm frustrated beyond reason.
This isn't a Republican problem...but wouldn't it be wonderful if the *&%$^ Democrats would pull in their fangs and stop baring their yellow teeth at Bush long enuf to work with Republicans on this massive problem AND cease and desist with undermining our soldiers and country?
Aren't you ashamed to call yourself a Democrat when you see the message those UNAmerican liberals along with turncoat Republicans are sending to our troops, allies and the enemy??
You don't think America's enemies aren't salivating over the divisiveness blared from our news outlets?I think Pelosi, Reid, MURTHA (that VETERAN????) are committing treasonous acts. WE ARE AT WAR...and our enemy isn't just drooling for world domination, they want every American DEAD.
I'm ashamed of Sen Warner and other Republicans who have fallen in with Pelosi and her gang of traitors.
Harsh words? It's pretty harsh to see your son or daughter come home in a coffin. These cowardly actions of the Democrats who hate Bush so much that they'd like to see us fail in Iraq are putting the lives of our own young men and women in escalated danger.
Well, I'll get off my soapbox. But, you seem to blame every problem on the Republicans.
Did ILLEGALS only start coming here during Bush's administration??
I'd like to see companies that knowingly hire illegals to be fined BIG time, and their owners/CEO's do jail time.
I didn't say cops 'profile' in other parts of the ocuntry. I said WE have to cough up ID, proof of insurance, etc.
Yeah, I'm frustrated...angry...and I would like to see criminals deported. These people cost us billions.
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