Brought to you by the modern day miracle of electrons zipping through tiny wires
As announced as an update to the previous article, the Ogden City IT Division will be making available tonight a web page-based site feed, with real-time updates of today's election results, as they roll in, straight from the "counting room."
We've previewed this web project this afternoon; and it really is quite cool. It's also much more robust than a simple vote tally:
In the left column you'll find the names of each candidate running for each contested municipal office, displayed with an assigned color and the current vote tally.
In the right column you'll find a city map, laid out by consolidated voter districts. Once all ballots have been counted in any consolidated district, the district "lights up" on the map, in the color corresponding to that candidate who got the most votes.
To save wear and tear on your mouse buttons, the page automatically refreshes at 30 second intervals, and displays the current results for each office, in a rotating loop.
Very cool, as we said.
A Weber County Forum Tip O' the Hat to all those smart folks in the Ogden City IT Division.
The real-time site feed is available here.
Pull up your barca-loungers® and grab your popcorn, gentle readers.
And don't forget to return to Weber County Forum with your ever-intelligent comments and observations. Thanks to the folks in the Boss Godfrey's IT Division, we Emerald City political junkies are obviously in for an interesting evening.
Update 9/12/07 11:25 a.m. MT: Rather than interrupt the interesting post-primary discussion that's happening within the comments thread below, we link today's three Northern Utah print articles, which do a post-mortem examination of yesterday's primary results. Be sure to read Ace Reporter Schwebke's in-depth interview of unsuccessful mayoral candidate Doyle Sexton; and please do not miss Jeff DeMoss's council-race "journalistic masterpiece," wherein Mr. DeMoss limits his interviews and quotes to the Godfrey shills.
The best of the lot, and most welcome relief from the neoCON Sanduskey Suits and Std-Ex Godfrey Shills, of course, is this morning's Kristen Moulton article, wherein she scoops the Standard-Examiner yet again, demonstrating an actual ability to do arithmetic -- putting it in print for the first time that erstwhile two-term mayoral incumbent, Boss Godfrey, garnered only a pathetic 40% of yesterday's vote. We've also compiled the final vote tallies on one page, for gentle readers who would like to do their own "confirming" calculations.
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80 comments:
Thanks to all today that voted, what a great experience, now lets enjoy the results. GO NEIL
Susie for Mayor! Yay!!!
No change in the totals for some time now, from two or three districts per precinct. Other precincts reported long ago. Polls closed two hours ago. Which has me wondering if there has been some problem with the computer voting machines in those precincts?
Godfrey is toast!
Hansen's one third votes will go to Susie and yes it is then a done deal. Godfrey is toast and Susie is Mayor.
I'm going to bed, and I'll leave analysis to better people, other than to say that while the Godfreyites survived, they look weak compared to the combined votes of the alternative viewpoint, and especially so considering the money applied to buy the election for the Godfreyites. Matt only got 40% or so.
My compliments to Ogden's IT department for fast results, and those maps that show the district and the top vote getters are really super. Nice job.
Thanks to Neil and all who ran. But thank goodness for Susie.
Ogden iii:
The Mayor is in trouble, as I presume his consultant is informing him right now, but we need to keep in mind one thing: more people, many more people, are going to vote in the "real" election in November because that always happens, and because this time, the school voucher referendum will be on the ballot in November. That will bring more voters out than normal, and we don't know how they will break on the municipal elections. Godfrey is in trouble, but by no means out of it. Not toast. Not yet, anyway.
Council results are discouraging. Godfreyistas could take two of the three seats up in November. Councilwoman Wicks got less than 50% of the vote, which is usually a bad omen for an incumbent [for the same reason it's a bad omen for Godfrey]. And it looks like more or less of a dead heat in the race for Safsten's seat.
Og iii: your presumption that much of Hansen's vote is an anti-Godfrey vote is true enough I suspect, but not all of it. Some of it was undoubtedly a pro-Hansen vote rather than an anti-Godfrey vote. We don't know how much of it was that.
So, the chance to send Godfrey his walking papers is there, is looking reasonably good, but the Mayor is not yet toast, especially given the wild-card affect of the voucher referendum on the November ballot.
Those who finished one/two in the various primaries [Round 1] get a night to celebrate. And if they're shrewd, they'll be up early in the morning, organizing for Round 2.
Danny:
Absolutely right about the IT department's vote tally website. First rate work. Really good. Hats off to the people who made it happen.
Well, that was fun and interesting.
Thanks to Ogden City's IT Department for setting that up.
Susie who?
Let me first disclose my bias-I am a Godfrey supporter. But, if the election results for Vanhooser/ Hansen is proportionately representative of likely voters in the general election, Van Hooser will win. Nearly all Hansen votes will go to Suzie. On the other hand, if the Suzie/Neil protest voters are motivate but shallow, Godfrey should outpace Suzie when a larger general election turnout occurs. (The theory being that Godfrey voters were secure that he would make it through the primary and thus did not bother to vote). It is of value to Godfrey that voter turnout will be driven upwards in the general election due to a non-city issue: school vouchers.
Because of higher turnout expected at the general election, it is unlikely that a motivated minority can turn this election based on turnout differentials alone. Whoever wins will in fact be the preference of a majority of the citizens, which regardless of who you support, is a good thing.
I have lived in Ogden long enough to recognize the snob mentality of the folks on the East Bench and Shadow Valley.
They couldn't bring themselves to vote for a blue collar worker.
Too bad that snob attitude is going to affect the rest of us who live in Ogden.
NUMBERS FROM 2003 primary...thought it might be interesting to compare.
Ogden
Mayor
x Matthew R. Godfrey(i) 3,191
x Jesse M. Garcia 1,347
Neil A. Hansen 1,067
Randall J. Williford 307
John H. Thompson 141
Lynn Horspool 115
Patrick A. Dean 88
D. S. Andersen 70
Larry Lowder 36
Now we get to choose between dingy and dip-wad, what a chose!
Interesting that 44% of the vote came from Municipal Ward 4. (At least, there were 2997 votes in Ward 4 and 6863 in the mayoral race. I'm assuming that everyone who voted for Ward 4 voted in the more "prestigious" mayoral election.)
Assuming that there are about equal numbers of voters in each municipal ward, someone is going to have to go out and re-enfranchise the voters of the First, Second and Third Wards.
Clearly, Ward 4 voters felt passionate about the outcome of this election.
Also, the "Axis of Gondolas" (Godfrey/Peterson/Johnson/Eccles) got a consistent 40-45% of the vote.
Pitiful percentage turnout for such an important race for the future of Ogden.
Nit:
Yes, but not at all surprising. The fact is, not voting is as American as apple pie. [In the election for the convention that would either ratify or reject the new new U.S. Constitution in Pennsylvania, 13% of the eligible voters managed to flog themselves to the polls.]
Which is why general public opinion preference polls [not limited to probable voters] are not necessarily good predictors of outcomes. What matters, always, is who can get their people to the polls.
And which is also why predictions here at WCF about "the people" being furious with MG and eager to turn him out of office needed [and still need] to be taken with a grain of salt. Most people don't read papers. There is no Ogden TV news. If more than half of the potential electorate was even aware that there was a council primary today, I'd be surprised. Drawing conclusions about what "the people" think based on conversations with policy wonks and the [relatively] heavily politically engaged and informed is a dicey business. Always.
Comments above about east benchers refusing to vote for a blue collar candidate, etc. Possibly something to that, in part anyway. But it is also a fact that the lower down you go on the economic scale, the lower the percentage of people who vote. If east benchers turn out in much larger numbers than those in the west precincts, then they will dominate the elections. And should. What it would take to counter that would be a populist campaign that made a candidate's blue-collar background a virtue, a campaign plus. But it would take a populist candidate running an avowedly populist candidate to make it work. Didn't happen this time round.
Mono:
You wrote: the "Axis of Gondolas" (Godfrey/Peterson/Johnson/Eccles) got a consistent 40-45% of the vote.
Yes, but did you notice all of them did it without so much as mentioning "gondola" in their campaign literature? They know a losing issue when they see one.
Pollster:
You wrote: Whoever wins will in fact be the preference of a majority of the citizens, which regardless of who you support, is a good thing.
That's true, only if we assume that the proportion of votes for the winner [whoever it is] reflects the actual preferences of the same proportion of the citizens. This fall, a high turnout would be, I'd imagine, 25% or so of the voting age population. Not much more than that I think. Whether a majority of that, say 13%, would reflect the views of most of the citizens is a pretty hefty assumption.
Not that it matters a whole lot. It's the majority of those who drag themselves to the polls that counts. Nothing else.
I hope [as someone who thinks it would be best for Ogden if Godfrey did not serve a third term] that his campaign staff keeps on assuming that all he faces is a "motivated minority" that reached its peak in the primary. [In casual conversations with Godfrey supporters, they've told me something very like that, that its just "a few malcontents" who are stirring up all this opposition" etc.] Nothing would please me more than having them continue to think that, and to plan their campaign based on that assumption.
Clearly the story of the night was that our incumbent mayor received only 40% of the vote and far less than his main two rivals combined. Compare that with the #s provided by "me" last night from the 2003 primary where he received 50% of the vote and far outpaced his main two rivals. The other important stats from yesterday's primary is that Van Hooser beat Godfrey in a 3-way race in a couple of precincts where Godfrey won in a 2-way race 4 years ago. Yes, I know that this is only the primary and the voting could be quite different in the general election, but at least yesterday the primary voters sent a clear message -- no 3rd term for the G-man.
Curmudgeon:
Agreed. Time will tell whether the anti-Godfrey voters are the motivated minority or victorious majority. In the meantime, if Godfrey must lose, at least it would be to the least offensive of the protest candidates. Hansen, in my view, is a kook and dangereous for the city. So, while Suzie may represent a decline in the speed of progress in Ogden, she is preferable to Hansen, who would take the city off a cliff.
Whether you like Hansen or not, Suzie has always had a much better chance at beating Godfrey than Hansen. I'm sure Godfrey would have much rather faced kook Hansen in the general election. So, you anti-godfrey folks have much to be happy about morning.
pollster:
Decline in the speed of progress? What you call progress (which isn't all good, though I think much of it is) is mostly caused by larger forces than who happens to be mayor. Godfrey has steered growth in certain directions, promoting certain types of development and hindering others. Van Hooser's priorities would undoubtedly be somewhat different. But under either mayor, it's simply a fact that most of Ogden's tax increment revenue for the next couple of decades has already been committed (by Godfrey) to paying off existing projects (mostly the Salmon Center), so there just won't be any more opportunities for city-owned mega-projects.
There is, however, one opportunity for a government-owned mega-project. That's the streetcar between downtown and WSU/McKay-Dee. It would be funded not by the city (primarily) but by the federal government and UTA. If you believe that government-owned mega-projects are necessary for progress, then you should support the streetcar.
I'm sorry Neil Hansen. It's a sad thing when our local Firefighters won't support a proven candidate that has been on their side all these years. Ironically their very own candidate couldn't win either.
I guess they get what they deserve. I know us cops get what we deserve to. We have the guts to fight personally with and without weapons with the worst guy in the community. But we collectively won’t endorse or ridicule our public leaders either. My guess, because of what happened to Officer Matt Jones.
We can't win against the worst skum in the community. For some reason, they keep electing them to be Mayor.
Hansen hang in there. You've been through tougher battles than this. You can still fight with the big skum at the State Legislature.
My heart goes out to you and your wonderful wife and kids. There is no greater accomplishment that you have, then your family. As you know, “by their fruits you shall know them.” Too bad the voters didn't open their eyes wider. No thanks to the Standard Do Nothing newspaper.
We still need your public service. If good men like you don't step up to the plate we'll end up with even more wolves in sheep’s clothing.
Thank You and God Bless You
Neil I hope you read this blog on a consistent basis?
I’ve been around long enough to know when you have a bad boss, sometimes we think anyone else can do better, but you don’t always trade up!
I know very little about Susie.
Who are you going to endorse for Mayor?
Thank you again.
Dan:
The street car sounds fine to me. I love the idea of more public transportation. Find a way to pay for and I'm in.
Regarding your comment that there are no big or important projects in Ogden left--take a look at downtown. The river project has just started. The Junction is only half completed. There is lots of work to do between the temple and river project, and to the west of it. Despite imaginations otherwise, Ogden's latest rebirth did not occur by force of nature, but by force of a mayor. It's not easy work and it doens't happen by itself. Now, if you don't like all that anticipated development, then "anyone but Godfrey" makes perfect sense. But, if you like the work but hate the man, you must at least consider how things will be different if Godfrey's focus on growth disappears.
"There is lots of work to do between the temple and river project, and to the west of it."
That about sums it up.. my neighbors across the street were virtually forced out of their houses in the River Project zone to make it look more pretty around the Temple. I say virtually forced since the state legislature made one of the only decisions I've ever agreed with them on, that being that you can't use eminent domain to screw over residents for business gain, at least in Utah. For the moment anyhow.
"Now, if you don't like all that anticipated development, then "anyone but Godfrey" makes perfect sense."
It's not that we hate anticipated development.. we just hate scheming boondoggles funded with money we *hope* to get from BDO and future tax revenue, all so the snobs east of Harrison can stare down at us little folk like Zeus and friends on Mt. Olympus.
Baah. A Wal-Mart would have looked really nice in that old mall site, and would have actually been patronized by us poor folks that live near it.
Oh, well.. What's another $20 million or so?
pollster:
When you going to tell Mayor Godfrey to fix his police department. Their morale is the lowest it’s ever been. When are they going to pay their cops and honest livable wage? When are they going to give them the tools of the trade to protect you? When are they going to hire more officers so they can get rid of the gang problem? Ogden now has the highest gang shootings in the State.
Godfrey needs to re-focus. With all that new development, it will be bankrupt because Ogden can't protect it. What good was that development?
Pollster:
Seems to me that a concern for "truth in advertising" would lead you to rename your posts here "Spinmeister" instead of Pollster.
You wrote: "Now, if you don't like all that anticipated development, then "anyone but Godfrey" makes perfect sense. But, if you like the work but hate the man, you must at least consider how things will be different if Godfrey's focus on growth disappears."
Skillfully done, I admit, but spin none the less. You've set up two polar opposites: Godfrey/growth vs Van Hooser/no growth ["consider how things will be different if Godfrey's focus on growth disappears."] That's a false dichotomy. The question is not growth vs no growth, but a different vison about how growth in Ogden should occur, and at what cost [financial and otherwise] to the citizens. Your's is just the latest "naysayer" charge, dressed up a bit to go out in public, maybe, but nothing more.
Given the way Godfrey and his council candidate supporters have avoided the word "gondola" like the plague in the primary campaign, and the way the Mayor has publicly taken sale of the public park lands "off the table," I suspect your polling has shown you that "development at any cost, including selling parks to build gondolas" has not played well with the voters.
I've said here often that the Mayor deserves credit for shifting Ogden city's pitch to "outdoor recreation hub" when "the new Silicon Valley" campaign tanked. It was a smart move and it has produced some good results for Ogden. However, his continuing obsession with the weird flatland gondola, and his two year loud advocacy of selling the parklands to finance a real estate scheme on the former public benchlands that even he now admits was a non-starter from the beginning undercut considerably my confidence in his ability to lead the city intelligently in the future.
Particularly disturbing to me was his "conclusions and first, research later" approach to the "Peterson Proposal" [at its most expansive]. And his nearly pathological preference for secrecy and opposition to full disclosure in operating the city government. It's precisely that that has led to the current animus between the Council and the Mayor's office. [My God, Pollster, you even had Stephenson voting against you on the Bootjack disclosure matter.] I don't see any sign that a third Godfrey administration will be any more open, any less needlessly secretive, any less crony-ridden than his present term has been.
Do you?
Speaking of spin, here's one way to look at the mayoral results, a possible headline to the election story:
60% Of Ogden Voters Say 'No' to Third Term for Godfrey
I kind of like the look of that....
Don't know about the rest of you, but this morning after, I'm read for a respite from the campaign rhetoric and for a little non-controversial good ink for Ogden. And, happily, the SE has provided it. This story appears in this morning's SE. Here are the opening graphs in Robert Johnson's story about groundbreaking for a key final link in the Ogden trails network:
Tunnel started for Centennial Trail
BY ROBERT JOHNSON
Standard-Examiner staff
OGDEN— If you can’t go around it, you’ve got to go over it. If you can’t go over it, you’ve got to go under it. That’s exactly what Ogden City decided to do to provide one of the final missing links of the Centennial Trail. Ground was broken for a tunnel underneath railroad tracks near Exchange Road where the trail will cross the Wilson Canal in Ogden....
Tunnel construction should be completed by December and will cost $120,000. The trail will form a 28.2-mile loop from the mouth of Ogden Canyon. It will run down the Ogden River to the Weber River, going up into Riverdale and eventually be part of a larger Weber County trail network.
The full story can be found here.
Re: A cop for Neil.
It's sad when the police won't get off thier ass and change thier by-laws so that they can come out and publicly endorse someone!!! At least the FF's have the gall to stand up and support someone publicly instead of in the shadows.
Pollster:
My nine-year old son could spur growth in Ogden if he was given a blank check drawn on taxpayer's money, allowed to lie at every turn and to provide backdoor (pun intended) illegal deals to his playground buddies.
I hope the voters of Ogden are smart enough to know there's going to be a severe price to be paid for all of Godfey's "progress".
I'm sickened by the unmitigated gall of the little tyrant shouting about his record on crime in the weeks leading up to election, while gang violence is at an all-time high. He's done NOTHING to make Ogden safer in his 8 years in office!
Not to mention that our infrastructure is literally collapsing under our feet while he's throwing away money at a f%&@ing urban gondola to nowhere.
I guess the fact the Godfrey had city employees putting up signs and campaigning for him on city time made a difference in the primary. Not to mention the phone calls made to city employees who displayed the opposition's signs in their yards threatening their jobs if the signs weren't removed.
I hope Hansen quickly endorses Van Hooser. Your supporters will listen to your recommendation, Neil.
Also, make Eccles, Johnson, and Petersen moot. Sever the head of the serpent.
It looks like several candidates will need additional funding to help counter the forest of signs already standing. I suppose that now is the time to give that support as it takes time to get things into place.
After reading all that is said in this blob, I think I will call and ask Hansen to consider a write in campaign. would that just mix things up. Then we can let the chips fall where they may. then I can laugh the night of the election, and throughout the election to watch both side squirm. because neither would know for sure who would be winning.
This is a call to all Ogden City employees --
That means secretaries, fire fighters, police -- everybody!
Now is the time to call to make your appointment with the Grand Jury Panel coming to Ogden October 11 to hear all charges of malfeasance in office by elected officials.
The appointments are done secretly so that you will not be identified.
Call 801-578-3800 to schedule your 30 minute appointment at the District Court in Ogden.
The Judges are not interested in hearsay.. You must tell them your own story.
If you want to make a change in Ogden with your personal input of what has been going on now is the time to do it.
We can't do it for you.
The SL Trib's coverage of Ogden's mayoral election is better, this morning, than the SE's I think. The Trib story is by Kristin Moulton. Here are the opening graphs:
Ogden Mayor Matthew Godfrey, first elected eight years ago at age 29, will face his first serious challenge at the ballot box in November. Godfrey garnered 40 percent of the ballots cast in Tuesday's primary, but City Council member Susie Van Hooser was a close second with 37 percent. State Rep. Neil Hansen came in third with 19 percent, votes that could go to Van Hooser rather than Godfrey.
The mayor, however, said he doesn't believe Hansen's supporters will necessarily back Van Hooser.
"Nobody has the power to shift those over," Godfrey said. "A general election is very different. It's also about those who show up [at the polls] for the first time."
And a bit further down, Ms. Moulton suggests how the campaign may frame up, with respect to some of the issues:
Elected the first time on a promise to shake up a city that had seen better days, Godfrey has inspired strong passions. Many in the business community credit him with reviving the downtown and attracting new investment, particularly from outdoor recreation companies.
Though he pulled the plug this summer on his earlier advocacy of selling the Mount Ogden Golf Course and surrounding open space for a luxury subdivision and gondola, many residents remain wary that they will lose hillside open space.
The mayor's detractors also worry that Godfrey has exposed taxpayers to risks only businesses should take, particularly with the city's $40 million-plus investment in The Junction mall downtown.
The full article, which is worth reading, can be found here.
As much as many hate Godfrey, it doesn't take more than a few minute talking to Van Hooser to realize that she comes across as being near clueless regarding economic development. I don't think the "don't you just love Ogden" approach inspires.
And that scares me as much as Godfrey's issues.
pollster:
Others have responded to most of your latest, but I'll chime in with similar points.
You put words into my mouth that I never said. I didn't say there will be no more big projects in Ogden. I said there will be no more big city-owned projects. The rest of the Junction won't be city-owned. The River Project won't be city-owned. The city spent everything it had on the Salomon Center and it simply doesn't have the resources to do that again in the foreseeable future.
I stand by my claim that the progress we've seen recently in Ogden would have happened no matter who was mayor. It wouldn't have happened in exactly the same way, of course. And there's no way to tell whether it would have been better or worse.
Roll back the clock and imagine that Bob Hunter or Garth Day had been elected in 1999, and reelected in 2003. Would the Olympics still have happened? Yes. Would the Snowbasin expansion still have happened? Yes. Would the FrontRunner still have happened? Almost certainly yes. Would the Eccles Building (now Hampton Inn) renovation still have happened? Almost certainly yes (given the Olympics and the conference center next door). Would BDO have continued to develop and generate revenue for the city? Absolutely.
Would the mall have been torn down and the site left empty for four years and a high-adventure recreation center eventually built to anchor a new collection of developments there? No, under a different mayor something very different might have happened at the mall site. Would it have been better or worse? Who knows. Would the River Project area have been declared blighted in 2002, five years before construction began on the first redevelopment there? Probably not. But with the FrontRunner coming, a lot of downtown investment would be occurring under any mayor. In fact, it's quite possible that there would have been more investment under a mayor who was more open to other ideas and who didn't engage in so much cronyism.
Also, under another mayor we could have been two years farther along on the streetcar project by now. And yes, there are ways to pay for it.
Curm, you say the SL Trib has an article that does a better job of covering Ogden city's primary than the "top of Utah's" own SE. Now there's a shocker. I was actually a bit surprised that the SE article didn't comment at all on Godfrey polling only 40% - as a two term incumbent, no less. No real election analysis by the SE, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised by that at all. Their articles rarely contain any analysis - just "he said, she said" journalism.
Should Be Interesting:
In Re: Van Hooser. Early days, Should Be. The primary ended yesterday. Two months to election day. I'd expect the candidates remaining [for all offices] to be asked about [polite phrasing]/ grilled on [less polite phrasing] their plans for Ogden, their views on a variety of matters that have emerged in the primary campaigns as issues: crime, gangs, business development, the Mayor's flatland gondola obsession [still, it seems, intact], infrastructure, Ogden City's debt, transit, cronyism, open government and so on.
It's up to Ms. Van Hooser now to let us know what she proposes to do once she's sworn in. And it's to Mr. Godfrey to let us know what [if anything] he will do differently if he's returned for a third term. Or to put that last point a little differently, what he's learned from his first two terms in office and from his mis-steps. [I fear the answer to that question may be nothing.]
That's what the next two months of campaigning are for --- for the candidates to lay out for the voters their thoughts, plans, the changes they will [or won't] make, where they intend lead Ogden over the next four years.
We shall see.
should:
I'd be interested to know exactly what questions you would ask a candidate, to discern the candidate's understanding of economic development.
Godfrey is a fast talker, and of course, he's been mayor now for 8 years so he can rattle off a lot of facts about what's happened and what's happening. But if he's as honest about economic development as he is about gondolas and mass transit and selling park lands, most of what he says is intended to deceive.
An incumbent will always be more knowledgable about government affairs than a challenger. If this were our only criterion in elections, then we should always reelect incumbents. Incumbents also acquire more political baggage as they spend more years in office. Friends expect favors, and enemies refuse to cooperate. This is why the U.S. wisely imposed an 8-year term limit on the president. Similarly, Ogden should have an 8-year term limit on the mayor. We need a fresh start.
Cato:
Can't argue with you on the lack of analysis in SE political coverage.
As for its not reporting percentages in the Mayor's race, I noticed the excellent city election reporting website also did not provide percentages, only raw vote totals.
I wish I could shake the suspicion that if the city website had reported percentages, the SE would have too. [It took me less than 30 seconds to get the percentages for all mayoral candidates once the final vote tallies were posted, on my little hand held calculator. Surely the SE could have done the same.]
Well, Godfrey only rec's 40% of the vote! Pretty telling, I say!
Neil's supporters will now give their all to Van Hooser! Unless, Of, course, that Godfrey is knocked out of the race altogether for not telling the truth about his campaign finances!
Wouldn't that be a coup? Then it would be Hansen and VanHooser in the NV election!
Let's work like heck for Amy Wicks! She needs her signs up again in the south part of twon and on the East bench. Snobville, someoone called it..so right!
Thank you, Neil, for running....a lot of us believe in you.
I'm wearing a black armband today. (actually, it's a bruise, but serving the purpose).
Sharon:
You wrote, urging people to put up signs for Amy Wicks on the East Bench: "the East bench. Snobville, someoone called it..so right!"
Ahem. Dear Sharon, seeking the support of people on the East Bench for a candidate you favor by calling them snobs does not seem to be a winning strategy to me.
Hansen lost because he and his naive inner circle ran his campaign as if it were another inner city bout for the legislature. They could not expand past what has worked for them in the past inspite of it very clearly being a totally different exercise. A city wide campaign has to appeal to all segments, especially those heavy voting districts above Harrison.
Neil, inspite of being a very good and honorable man, just could not get the vision and see the necessity of tailoring a platform that would make sense to the more wealthy and educated sector of Ogden. He and his campaign team did not deal with the underlying issue important to that class of Ogden's citizens, that being the overwhelming and ominous business enterprise that Ogden has become, and just how he would deal with it if elected.
Very unfortunate as I feel he would be a very good "people" mayor, which after 8 years of this cold hearted little fish we have been stuck with would be a very pleasant change.
Dan:
I disagree with your oft-stated speculation that all of Ogden's recent growth was inevitable with or without Godfrey. It's easy say, impossible to prove, and therefore impossible to disprove. A convenient fantasy.
One thing that's easy to demonstrate is that Godfrey has relentlessly focused on redevelopment and substantial redevelopment has actually occurred. Cause and effect.
Who knows about and will tell us about the "People to Re-Elect Mayor Godfrey" that paid for Monica Godfrey's solicitation letter mailed to residents asking for donations for her husband that was dated September 6, 2007?
Political Action Committees have to be filed with the State or should be. Godfrey isn't known to cross his t's and dot his i's.
Or to add and subtract correctly on his own Candidate's Expenditure
statement - or to remember to include roughly $38 thousand in cash from his last run.
Pollster
Another thing that is easy to demonstrate is that any idiot with an unlimited access to the public treasury can make a whole of shit happen, especially when they get involved in a lot of secret deals with their criminal buddies.
Godfrey has sunk $40 million in tax payer money into the mall and all the public has to show for it is a lame assed bowling alley and penny arcade that does one and a half days worth of business a week and is otherwise a ghost town that is steadily is draining the city treasury as we all subsidize his two incompetent cronies to the tune of a hundred and fifty thousand bucks a month.
Some success! The above poster's 9 year old could do a hell of a lot better with $40 million than that!
Every single thing that Godfrey has put his lame and incompetent hands on has turned to crap. Name one verified and bona fide success the little creep has had, just one.
Pollster, just as you accuse Dan S of some bad logic - unable to prove that development would have happened without Godfrey as mayor - your last post is just as guilty. Just because Godfrey "relentlessly focused on redevelopment" does not mean he was THE CAUSE of it. I was relentlessly focused all last night on having a sunny day today. Doesn't mean I was the cause. Plus, keep in mind that Godfrey was relentlessly focused on the Peterson-Malan's Basin-Gondola project for the past two-three years and it did not happen. Cause and no effect. And lastly, as others have pointed out numerous times on this page, re-development is not always an unqualified good, especially when it comes with a high price tag.
Way to go Susie, you are a class act and the right person to face off and eventually defeat Godfrey (I hope). To those who called Susie dingy and clueless when it comes to economic development, you are very wrong. She is not an egoistic shrewd businessman like Godfrey, who apparentely knows "economic development," but she does know her stuff. I've sat in several meetings w/ Susie over the years and can tell you she is very sharp and is full of great ideas. Plus, there is more to Ogden's future than economic development -- public infrastructure, public safety issues, transportation, neighborhood and community development, land use, how our city government handles itself, etc. I look forward to her positivity and the change that she can bring to Ogden. Hopefully the Hansen supporters see what many other voters saw in Susie in the primaries and jump on ship.
pollster:
Your blind faith in Mayor Godfrey is impressive. Since it's impossible to argue with blind faith, I won't try.
ogg iii
The primary is over and, it seems your candidate, Ms. Hooser, won a place on the November ballot. Mine, Rep. Hansen, did not. I see no point or purpose now to questioning Hansen's record, his support within the party [I don't look askance at any four or five-time elected Democrat in the Utah legislature], etc. etc. And [one of the reasons I voted for him], he does stand up on local issues when very few [read "none"] of Ogden's other representatives do. From either party. And let us not forget that for several months, until Ms. Van Hooser announced, Rep. Hansen was the only credible candidate who stuck his head up and said of Godfrey "OK, I'll take him on." My hat's off to him for doing that, and to anyone, really, who stands in a primary, makes a serious run and undergoes all that comes with that. Win or lose.
It makes no more sense post-primary to denigrate Rep. Hansen's record and campaign than the ill-advised attacks on Ms. Van Hooser that some Hansen advocates posted here before the primary did.
You want to tell me why you think Ms. Van H. will be our best choice for mayor, I'm all ears. You want to tell me, post-primary, why you think Hansen wasn't, I have better things to do. There's an election coming.
Dan
The reason "Pollster" is so blind to Godfrey is because he has his head up the mayor's rear. Oh, that and he owes his big paying job to the mayor since he betrayed the voters of Ogden who elected him to the council before he jumped ship for the best paying job he ever had.
Whoops, hope I didn't expose any phonies here.
Why am I always being accused of being Bill Glasmann? Except last week, when I was accused of being Mark Johnson or Dave Harmer? In past weeks I was accused of being Bob Gieger.
I disclosed my pro-godfrey bias from the beginning. Why is it that the only way to respond to my comments is to drape me with an identity you can ridicule?
Pollster:
Who would you like to be accused of being? Any preference? [grin]
Curm:
Well assuming you are not inclined to call me "genius", "brilliant" or some other suitable name, why don't you accuse me of being Godfrey himself. Can't you just see him spending hours pouring over this blog wondering what you people think of him (yeah, me neither). :)
You could be accused of a lot worse than being Glasmann!
Try Stephenson or Safsten or assorted geigers. Glasmann is a pilar of virtue compared to some of the real Godfreyites!!
Pollster: "I disclosed my pro-godfrey bias from the beginning."
Great! Since you're a self-confessed Godfreyite, please explain this troubling discrepancy:
Godfrey's claim: "Crime has dropped more than 23% since Matthew Godfrey became Mayor, including a drop in violent crimes of 43% compared with an increase of 21% during the 7 years before he took office."
The inconvenient truth: Godfrey the Crimefighter
We're always anxious to give Godfrey Lemmings the opportunity to defend their inexplicable allegiance to the lying little twerp.
Thanks in advance.
Neil you wish to make a difference, now is the time, no more flyers or signs, get out and meet with the public. Door to door 12 hours a day, this election is not lost just hampered somewhat. Please turn on that motor of yours and show ogden that you didnt give up, you want this election then show it, and make us proud for we know you could be a great mayor if you have the desire. Your friend Mr stress
pollster,
I agree that we need to give Godfrey credit where credit is due, he has been a very loud (although not very pretty) cheerleader for the City.
But I don't believe in worshiping at the alter of economic development either. You forget that the purpose of economic development is to enhance the quality of life for the people of a community. We don't have to sacrifice honesty, civility, and our community's natural/economic resources to generate business!
To Neil Hansen,
Thank you for standing up when no one else would. I voted for you and I look forward to your continued efforts to see that Ogden gets the type of government that the people desire, i.e. not Godfrey.
Please join forces with those that now have the best chance to win against the present administration and know that being the leader is not the only way to help. I'm sure that Susie could use a lot of your knowledge and experience.
Help the people of Ogden by casting your support to Susie VanHooser for the mayor.
Again thank you for representing what most of us think of when it comes to honesty, integrity and heart. You're one heck of a good man and public servant.
Curm...I was quoting another blogger about the East bench being 'snobville'. There are some blue collar types here, but not the majority. And, Curm...other than the SE folks, which I understand read this blog "religiously", how many Eastbenchers do you think are on here?
Just a few Geiger types....but not the rank and file residents...oh, but rank and file folks aren't snobs, are they?
Sharon:
Well, you're talking to one East Bencher right now. And I know others who post here regularly. And I know even more East Benchers [some who post here, some who don't] who are not "blue collar types" as you put it, but who were raised by decidedly blue-collar parents in blue-collar homes. A pretty good rule when conducting campaigns is "don't assume anything."
In any case, my point was if you want to go after East Bench votes for your candidate, agreeing [as you did] that the people who live there are snobs is not, perhaps, the wisest of strategies. In fact, assuming [as some do] that "non-blue collar types" are as a rule "snobs" is a kind of reverse snobbery, when you think about it.
But whether you agree about that or not, it's generally true [during campaign season especially] that you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. And when I'm campaigning, I don't much care if the vote I'm after is from a blue- collar or a blue-blood. I want that vote for my candidate, regardless of its possessor's credit rating. And making possibly [I'd say probably] wrong assumptions about that voter going in is not smart politics.
Rudi:
This may surprise, but I don't think Godfrey has had much of an impact on crime, good or bad. Crime is one of those social indicators that are impacted by so many factors that it is impossible to honestly give credit or blame to any official (much like ecomonic indicators in national politics). But, this has never stopped campaigns from taking credit or casting blame for crime or economic numbers. And, this election is no exception.
The reason I focus on redevelopment in Ogden is because this is one thing that Godfrey really has had an impact on--for good or bad. Many will and have argued that such redevelopment comes at too high a price, is misguided, is ruining our railroad town, etc.(Cato appears to be in this camp). But, that it is happening is undisputable, and that Godfrey has had a huge impact is also undisputable. This is why those of us who see all the redevelopment as a net positive, also see Godfrey as a champion. Business people will always be encouraged by development. I guess its the difference between Walmart lovers and Walmart haters--there appears to be a real psychological difference between these two groups. Same goes with pro-Godfrey and anti-Godfrey groups.
Lionel challenged me to name any successful project Godfrey has championed. Here goes:
*Redvelopment of American Can
*Bringing the largest ski company to Town
*Redevelopment of downtown warehouses for the IRS complex ( this is taxed property)
*Solomon Center
*PRI Building
*Wells Fargo Building
*Megaplex
*Junction shops and restaurants on there way
*Ernst Health Care coming
*River project first phase buildings
*Eccles Building redevelopment (Hampton Inn)
*REdevelopment of downtown Washington, west side--in progress
*Half dozen redevelopment projects on 25th street.
shall I go on...
Polster: "But, this has never stopped campaigns from taking credit or casting blame for crime or economic numbers. And, this election is no exception."
Well, pollster, I see you've clumsily ducked the original question, which was reconciling Godfrey's bogus campaign claim, i.e., "Crime has dropped more than 23% since Matthew Godfrey became Mayor, including a drop in violent crimes of 43% compared with an increase of 21% during the 7 years before he took office."...
with verifiable real-world stats, i.e., Godfrey the Crimefighter
The implication here is that Godfrey is a bald-faced liar, since he seems to have no independent data of his own.
This is a unique case BTW, where his dishonesty can be proven by the numbers. We believe it sheds light on his whole mendacious mind-set. If he'll lie to us about something as provable as crime data, what else will he lie about?
So what say you about that? Is it OK for Godfrey to make up data and lie to us about Ogden City's crime problem? Is this OK with you, so long as he's for the "progress" that Ogden City would be experiencing anyway, now that Utah has become America's "hot economy?" Are you willing to overlook his deceit and underhandness because you believe he's the only being on the planet who can help Ogden city participate in the same economic revival that's been obeserved all over the state of Utah?
Please address the issue of the discrepancy in Godfrey's crime "data" before you launch into another train of consciousness ramble about all the wonderful things that are happening in Ogden.
Thanks in advance.
Pollster:
How can you honestly say that Godfrey hasn't had a negative impact on fighting crime? He's directed all his precious OPD resources into traffic enforcement while drug dealers, thieves, and gangbangers run the city streets unabated.
He and his gravy-training, no-backbone Chief of Police have also demoralized and insulted the decreasing number of officers who are willing to work here.
Not to mention how he's raided the budgets of such trivial things as Water, Sewer, Trash, Roads, Parks & Rec, etc., to fund his "visions" of progress.
I hope you like collecting rain water to drink and don't mind wading through sewage while dodging drive-bys, because that's where our beloved O-Town is headed.
Godfrey and his kids will be safe, though. They'll seek sanctuary in the gondola cars overhead.
Rudi:
Sorry to interefere with your AHA! moment, but there are a hundred ways to cut up the numbers in the crime pie. His campaign has assembled them to his advantage and you have done otherwise. Congratulations.
But, the evil Chief Greiner (boo, hiss) and his junior nemesis "Just a Cop" will do more for crime fighting than Godfrey or Van Hooser will ever do. I'm just not interested in quibbling about Godfrey as crime fighter.
Pollser, I am not opposed to every redevelopment project the city has undertaken these past years under the direction of Mayor Godfrey. While I have yet to enter a Wall-Mart I was not opposed to Wall-mart coming to Ogden - although not under the terms the mayor proposed: using eminent domain to take people's property and then sell it to Wall-mart at a discount. In addition, I have been deeply troubled by the way in which the Mayor has gone about creating this redevelopment. In far too many instances he has refused to share information with the council and then insisted that they approve projects without the necessary information. In other instances he has presented inaccurate information to bolster his case for certain projects.
Lastly, to return to a point raised earlier by Dan S there seems to be this sense by most Godfrey supporters that if he does not continue to be the mayor no further economic progress will come to the city. A completely unsubstantiated position. Van Hooser may do as well or better than Godfrey here, plus she'll do it with inclusion by the people's representatives on the council, rather than viewing the city as her own little fiefdom and the taxes of Ogden citizens as her's to dispense to her friends as she pleases.
Cato:
Oh, go ahead, take a step into a Walmart. It's not that bad--you might like it.
Regarding secrecy, I don't want to be in the oval office while the president is discussing war strategy. And I can think of quite a few senators and reps I would like to be excluded as well.
As a businessman, I do not conduct my business negotiations in a public forum, and I would be dissapointed if Godfrey did. Once the negotiations are completed and a deal is inked is the time for public disclosure.
Pollster:
I agree-Godfrey is a shrewd businessman who, behind closed doors, makes deals happen.
Like the Bootjack property he sold Wayne Peterson for $30,000 less than was otherwise offered by someone who stated he'd develop the property anyway the city saw fit.
Damn, with a business genius like that we ought to be bankrupt by the end his next term.
Pollster:
You wrote: As a businessman, I do not conduct my business negotiations in a public forum, and I would be disappointed if Godfrey did. Once the negotiations are completed and a deal is inked is the time for public disclosure.
Ah, there's the problem. Mayor Godfrey as mayor is not "a businessman." He is not running Ogden Inc. He's a public official running a city government. However convenient [and appropriate] you might find it as a business man keep your business dealings private until they are completed, a mayor not only should not do that, he can not do that, since he must, in most cases, have Council approval for many of the deals he hopes to make on behalf of the City.
He's not dealing with a Board of Directors of a private corporation. He's dealing with an elected City Council. As a public official, what he does is necessarily a matter of public [and press] scrutiny in ways the actions of a private business CEO are not. Until the cops arrive that is. [See today's front page story in the SE. Or ask Mr. Fastow of Enron --- now a guest of the public --- how that works.]
I suspect some of the Mayor's most embarrassing mis-steps [refusing to tell the Council as RDA Board who he wanted to sell the Bootjack property to for example] have come precisely from his sharing your misapprehension of his role: it is not as CEO of a private corporation. It's as an elected public official of a municipality. Both the powers, and responsibilities, of a Mayor are very different from those of a CEO, as are the legal and ethical constraints he must [and should] work under.
pollster,
Again, I hesitate to argue with someone whose opinions are founded on blind faith. But I will comment that your list of downtown projects includes some redundancies and quite a bit of wishful thinking (projects that have not yet happened or that are only barely getting started). Also, I suspect that Mayor Mecham could provide an equally long list of development projects that occurred, or at least began, while he was mayor. Also, it was Mecham who put BDO in place, which generated the revenue source that has funded the Salomon center and several other projects.
Pollster:
But OK, you've touted the Mayor's business judgment as a backer of successful projects and given us a list. A very interesting list, I thought, though not necessarily for the reasons you think.
Let's see what's on it;
*Redvelopment of American Can --- ok, but let us not forget that the Mayor's original plan to develop it as a high tech center went belly up but quick. And let us also not forget that his administration seems [by its own admission] to have played fast and loose with the Ogden City Foundation's own by-laws in contriving the dazzling cascade of property transfers that got the property to where it is today... which matter is still under investigation by the state. So, end result, good for Ogden. But as an indication of the Mayor's business accumen? 50/50. His original plan tanked, fast, and he may have engaged in some legally dicey tap dancing to rescue something from the shambles. Granted, in the end, I think the "rescue" will work out to Ogden's benefit. But it's all hardly an unmixed example of his business judgment.]
*Bringing the largest ski company to Town -- A clear plus for the Mayor, as is I think his re-branding Ogden's marketing as an outdoor activities center. Others on this blog disagree, as you know, but this one goes to Hizzonah in my book.
*Redevelopment of downtown warehouses for the IRS complex ( this is taxed property) --- OK, but construction of large federal office buildings has a downside: the empty out at 4:30 and create around them a kind of urban desert from thence to opening the next day, and are dead zones on weekends. I'm not sure how adding more them to the mix of a --- we hope --- vibrant and alive downtown with an active street life in the evenings will work out. But I'm willing to wait and see. A plus for Hizzonah, but I'll reserve judgment for a while on how big a one.
*Solomon Center Still remains to be seen if this will work out, if the wind tunnel can survive on $45 a minute rides. The City's original downtown redevelopment consultant, you recall, pulled out, convinced building a downtown revival around a bowling alley and tourist rides was not likely to succeed. Jury still out. In another 18 months we may know something. Not yet. Don't count your chickens, Pollster, before they are hatched. And don't forget that the Mayor pitched this to the Council with his assurance that the city would not be on the hook for the bonds if the center failed... only to have to return and beg the Council to agree to have the city back the bonds because private investors thought them too risky without their being backed by the full faith and credit of the city. Again, hardly an example of his good business judgment, misreading badly the willingness of the market to back the bonds without the taxpayers pockets behind them.
*PRI Building -- unfamiliar with this, so no comment.
*Wells Fargo Building Do you mean the new one going up at the Junction? OK, but of course that means the old one across the street has lost its major tenant. Again, we will have to see how this works out. You're claiming credit for the Mayor projects not yet built, much less proven to be successful.
*Megaplex OK, but it's just opened. It's success [and impact on the city's two other cineplexes] still undetermined. Will it still be a great success in your mind if the Cinemark complex in the Mall closes? Another example of claiming success before it's been established. May work out. I hope it does. But we don't know yet. Check with me again in 18 months.
*Junction shops and restaurants on there way Same comment as above. When the original downtown mall opened, it received the same anticipated praise and predictions of wild success. Yet it failed. we shall see what develops.
*Ernst Health Care coming OK, finally, after the Mayor's ham-fisted refusal to inform the Council and answer its questions the last time damn near sank the project. Hardly and example of his business or management prowess.
*River project first phase buildings Let's see, five years in, we have one building up [the cyclery] and one under contract. Five years in. And you think this is an example of his business prowess? And we do not know, yet, whether any of the five phases [only one of which has even begun development] will in the end succeed.
*Eccles Building redevelopment (Hampton Inn) Ah, how soon we forget! The original Mayor-backed idea was an up-scale hotel, like the Marriot. What the Mayor backed was a Crown Plaza property, over the loud complaints of the Ben Lomond Hotel management that such another property downtown would sink the Ben Lomond the instant the Olympics were over. Nonsense say out far-seeing business tycoon Mayor. The Crown Plaza opened, the Olympics passed, and both the Crown Plaza and the Ben Lomand tanked. Hardly an example, seems to me, of Hizzonah's far-seeing good business judgment.
*REdevelopment of downtown; Washington, west side--in progress;
Half dozen redevelopment projects on 25th street. Getting desperate for listings? These all seem to be variations on the same thing: redevelopment of downtown.
And I notice you left out Our Mayor's far-seeing business judgment in arranging city backing for the Union Square condos, which as I recall, went into receivership. I still remember fondly Hizonnah's gambit to save them before they went under: offering those who bought free sabling for their horses at the city's stables. Sheer marketing genius!
So, Pollster, it's a mixed bag. His record as a far-seeing successful [municipal] businessman is mixed, at best, with the jury still out on many of the projects he backed with city funds.
He certainly gets some credit for some successes, like Amer. I think it's as wrong to claim Ogden's growth is in no way attributable to the Mayor [as some here like to insist] as it is to claim that all the growth is attributable to the Mayor [as some of his advocates like to insist].
And [also not mentioned by you I see] he seems to have piled up in seven short years a truly impressive amount of Ogden City debt in the course of backing all these projects. [I'm just a simple semi-retired Historian, Pollster. When I read in the City's own annual financial report that it's carrying $93 million dollars of public debt, I tend to conclude that it's carrying $93 million dollars of public debt.]
So: mixed bag. Some successes, but enough wrong guesses to raise not trivial concerns about his business judgment, and the jury still out on many of the public-backed developments he championed.
Pollster: Some of those projects you mentioned were funded with funny money shenanigans by your leader.
The IRS is is on his skinny tail. Stay tuned. You'll probably read about it in the SL Trib, not the beholden to Godfrey Standard Examiner.
Mayor Godfrey was in no way responsible for the IRS move to downtown Ogden. It happened under the previous administration. Same for the PRI building.
He does like to take credit for good things he didn't do, and shed responsibility for the turkeys he does create.
The "biggest ski company" also was lured to Utah by the Governor's team with a $11 million dollar carrot, and only incidentally chose Ogden because the city kicked in a couple of million and because of the natural environment, low real estate prices and because they could be the big fish in the local pond.
This in stark comparison to Layton that has been kicking Ogden's butt severely in the development game ever since Godfrey has been in office. Godfrey has given untold millions of tax payer money to lure companies to town, and the big ski company incidentally is the only significant one, while Layton has not found it necessary to dole out any public money to get businesses to go there.
In addition, Godfrey has lost the city many many millions of dollars in ill advised law suits and forced settlements over the mall and the 25th street properties. Something that sure wouldn't recommend him very highly in the private sector that some seem to think he would shine in.
Truth be told, with his record of losses and fiasco's, he would never make it in private enterprise. Any success he has had is directly attributed to his ability to access public money with no accountability and to his incessant manipulations and lies to the council and to the people.
And the real kicker - the job he was elected to do to begin with, the very most important thing any mayor can do, he has totally and completely failed at. That of course is the infrastructure, the public safety and the harmonious well being of the citizens.
Yes sir, that Godfrey sure is a business genius, ain't he!
anonymous:
I'll prove you wrong by contradicting albert: I think the IRS move to downtown did occur after Godfrey became mayor. But I don't know the details, so I don't know how much credit the mayor deserves.
Curmudgen,
Re: Your comment
"construction of large federal office buildings has a downside: the empty out at 4:30 and create around them a kind of urban desert from thence to opening the next day, and are dead zones on weekends. I'm not sure how adding more them to the mix of a --- we hope --- vibrant and alive downtown with an active street life in the evenings will work out."
Mon to Fri office workers can provide a lot of lunch time revenue to those restaurants that I ( and I think you) like to patronize in the evening. We might have fewer to choose from if they didn't have this lunch revenue.
Most of the restaurants on 25th survive because of the lunch crowds from City Hall, the Courts, the Fed bldg and the IRS. Without that lunch time business they would all fail, except maybe Roosters. Some of them don't even open at night. 25th Street is a ghost town after dark.
Dan
The actual move of the IRS happened after Godfrey took office, however the deal was set in motion and the bldg renovation took place under the previous mayor's term. Mr. Godfrey had nothing to do with any of it, other than taking credit. In any event, the IRS employees that moved in there only transferred over from the facility on 12th which is also in Ogden City. There was no gain in employment for the city inspite of the thousands of jobs that Godfrey claims he created there.
Southsider:
Said it had a mixed impact, I think. Not that it was a bad idea. I have been in cities that didn't have a good mix, and downtown died at 4:30 every afternoon. Flat died. Nothing open. So few people around they downtown streets became unsafe until the office buildings filled up the next morning. And stayed dead on weekends. Other cities have good mixes of buildings, building uses, and the streets are alive from morning on, not just on the lunch hours. 25th Street seems [so far] to be tending towards a workable mix, but I think another Fed building is going in in an old warehouse, isn't it? Ogden does seem, at least in summers, to be wisely scheduling Saturday downtown events to keep it from becoming a business desert on weekends. And the Harvest thing, Art fest, now XTERRA night events. This is good.
Also said, I think, I'd wait and see how downtown works out before drawing any final conclusions. Still seems a reasonable POV to me. We shall see.
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