The organization I'm talking about is the Episcopal Diocese of Utah. They've apparently made a "firm" purchase offer:
In a formal offer this summer, the Episcopal Diocese of Utah asked Ogden City to sell the land to the east of the historic church and its social hall. Good Shepherd wants to build a second, larger chapel that could accommodate the 400-plus members of the congregation and be surrounded by park-like landscaping.
Not only would such a church allow the parish to handle the big crowds it sees on holidays and for funerals, it would reintroduce Ogden to a piece of its history that has been virtually hidden behind the walls of the mall's parking terrace for a quarter of a century - the 130-year-old chapel.
"It's not just history," says the Rev. Adam Linton, rector of Good Shepherd. "We're very committed to downtown Ogden. It [the plan] makes us a real anchor and a resource."
This offer is apparently getting in the way of the Ogden City administration's uber-tight grand plans, though:
Dave Harmer, the city's new director of community development, said he and his staff have been too busy this summer trying to line up financing for the high adventure recreation center to respond to the church's offer to buy property.
The church wants all the land, roughly a half block, between its existing property and Kiesel Avenue, a north-south road that will be re-established down the center of the new development. The city, however, wants retail shops to line Kiesel Avenue east of Good Shepherd, Harmer says.
City and church leaders figure negotiators will come up with a solution by winter.
I guess it all depends on whether the Rec Center project succeeds or fails by the December 31, 2005 drop-dead-date.
I ask you though, gentle WCF readers, wouldn't it make more sense to snap up a good-faith offer from a long-time investor in downtown Ogden, rather than to cultivate these rather vague central-planning Disneyland delusions?
Here's a map from the administration's "grand vision," which graphically shows what the debate's about. It'll wipe out about four yet to be leased (or built) retail shops:
The "Vision"
Gimme a break, people. Isn't it possible that the "central scheming scammers" could yield just a little bit, for the sake of the plans of the "Church of the Good Shepherd," one of the long-time ("gentile") institutions of Ogden City?
There are lots of "movers and shakers" within the body of parishioners of the "Church of the Good Shepherd," I would think, just as in the past in Ogden. I can't help but think that ignoring their standing offer is anything other than a dumb political move.
Comments, anyone?
35 comments:
I think it sounds like a great idea to have the church own the land all the way to Kiesel Avenue. I was in Ogden just yesterday, and I got to see the First Baptist Church on 25th and Jefferson. That has to be one of the most beautiful churches I have seen in a long time. I haven't seen the Episcopal Church of the Good Shepherd, but if it's anything like the one I saw, it definitely shouldn't be boxed in by retail shops to the east.
Click on the Salt Lake Tribune link that I embedded, Centerville Citizen.
There are several photos there.
The Ogden "Church of the Good Shepherd" is flat gorgeous.
Harmer says the City is too damn busy with the rec center to take a look at the offer to purchase? My gawd, what have we wrought? I thought the whole objective was to draw in buyers, and who could be a better choice than the Church of the Good Shepard? Maybe the fact that it's not a Mormon entity is the reason. Too busy to look at the offer. Gee-zust!
Here's the ultimate question. Now that we know there's at least one good-faith purchase offer that's been essentially ignored, how do we know that there aren't others?
Mayor Godfrey has said his big plans are necessary because nobody has been interested in the old mall site, now that it's been torn down.
After reading this story, it seems impossible to believe that other prospective buyers may have not been turned away, because their plans didn't dovetail with the Mayor's "vision."
The Mayor says nobody is interested in the mall property. Obviously that's just another lie.
We need to gut our current city government of the liars and schemers as soon as possible.
We can start with the City Council incumbents in November.
The Ogden Standard-Examiner is scooped again by the SL Trib!
So what else is new?
Another good example of the SL Trib's scooping the Standard-Examiner was its story of the lawsuit alleging Ogden City stole plans for Time Square (at Lincoln & 25th) from the original developer. The Standard's chronic timidity with these kinds of stories makes me question everything they write about downtown development -- it's as if their reporters have been warned away from digging too far.
But as far as Good Shepherd's surprise bid for a chunk of the old mall site, You Go, Girl! Isn't Ogden City slated to sell parcels on either side of the new Children's Museum to a certain other religious body? Is there any good reason not to take seriously Good Shepherd's worthwhile proposal?
CC, you Must go see the Church of the Good Shepherd!
Remember this?
RDA OKAYS MALL LOT SALE
The Ogden Redevelopment Agency agreed Tuesday night to sell a lot at the downtown mall site for the development of a six-story building that will have office, retail and condominium space.
The RDA, comprising the Ogden City Council, plans to sell the lot, which encompasses about a half-acre, to Salt Lake City developer David Earnshaw.
The lot is directly north of the site of a proposed high-adventure recreation center, which may also be built on the mall property.
Proceeds from the sale of the parcel would be used for other RDA projects at the mall site.
Earnshaw plans to build a 21,000-square-foot, six-story building. He could not be reached for comment on the project.
The first level would consist of retail space, while the second would have about 50 parking stalls and office space. Levels 3 through 6 would consist of 24 condominiums ranging in size from 1,350 to 2,700 square feet.
Construction costs are estimated at $1.8 million for the retail space and $8.5 million for the condominiums.
Work on the building could begin later this summer, according to city officials. Information was not immediately available when the building would be finished.
Ogden Mayor Matthew Godfrey said the high-rise fits in well with plans to also include the high-adventure recreation center, a multi-screen cinema complex, retail stores, restaurants and the Treehouse Children's Museum at the mall site.
"I'm very excited about the (high-rise) project," he said. "It helps establish the mall project as a high-quality project..."
The parcel is described elsewhere as being 26,619 square feet to the north of the proposed rec center, and the price was $386,666.
The Church of the Good Shepherd should be able to buy its proposed lot also. This church is a historical gem,
I too wonder if any others have made offers.
Maybe they just weren't as busy when Earnshaw made his.
Amen on the newspaper timidity. We have the same problem down here in south Davis. There's a lot of stuff that the Davis County Clipper could be reporting on, but alas, they just want to be that friendly small-town paper that doesn't upset anyone. But to be fair, they did publish a letter of mine that was pretty intense in its accusations. But this thing with the Church of the Good Shepherd is definitely something that the Standard should have picked up on.
Like Harmer said, maybe everyone was "too busy." Can you believe it? "Too busy?" "To busy" doing what? Godfrey, the 5 supporting council members, all have to go this Oct/Nov....just get out and vote and maybe we can get this beautiful old city up and running if we have some dignity at the top. Ever since these people have been in office, and have staffed the administration and department heads the way they do, the city has fallen into a state of dispair.
Lies, untruths, arrogance, you name it, they do it. And then they try to lay it upon the previous administrations. They have no courage, no spine, nothing that qualifies them to be leaders.
There are rumors there is another church who has a interest in the mall property. The LDS church. I've heard from credible sources that they wanted to buy the whole mall property for a similar project to the one in Salt Lake. But by selling it to the church the mayors vision of gradure would have been forgotten as it would have handed all devlopment to the church.
Hmmmm, I'm probably being too idealistic here, but maybe the best use of the mall site would be to sell it to the LDS Church, except for a good portion on the south end which should be sold to the Church of the Good Shepherd. Maybe a really beautifully landscaped segment of downtown with fountains and gardens would be better than some uber expensive rec center that's only going to burden taxpayers. Something beautiful created and paid for by the church wouldn't cost Ogden taxpayers a dime.
That's the ticket, Centerville Citizen. We can have a little piece of heaven right here in Ogden, with the Episcopalians on the south, the Mormans on the north, and the Southern Baptists and Evangelical Holy Rollers passing out their handbills on the garden plaza in the middle.
Good thinkin, old buddy!
Ok, ok. So it's probably not the best plan. But keep in mind that the whole problem with the SLC plaza was that there was an issue with a public easement where Main St. used to be, and therefore an issue of freedom of speech along that easement. If the only public easement on the mall property was the sidewalk around it, there'd be no issue. And for some reason I don't think that there are going to be a whole bunch of street preachers traveling from Kansas to yell both in SLC and in Ogden, but I could be wrong.
Makes some sense, I think. The City absolutely should not be in the development business. Nope, it should be running the city government, taking care of Public Services, the infrastructure, the people, the stuff that they were elected to do. No one on the Adminsitration or the Council is a big time developer, as 9 delays and the other borderline RDA projects will attest. So why do they think they're Donald Trump?
Various Churches buying up the ground might just be the answer. I can visualize what CC said as to the ambiance that they would create. And the buildings to the East might even follow suit, spruce themselves up, and maybe attract some tennants. Downtown would flourish and city government could govern the city.
Gee, what a unique thought.
The LDS Church is in full agreement with what the mayor is trying to do downtown. They want something possitive to happen there and no one should be able to find blame with that. After all they have a Temple and Tabernacle on the next block and the huge apartment complex kitty corner from the mall site.
I doubt if the LDS Church tried to buy the mall site and was turned down by Godfrey. Godfrey is not ever going to turn down anything the Church wants, nor should he. It is inconcievable that the Church would ever want any thing but the very best for down town Ogden.
As for the LDS Church buying the mall, well they do have their hands pretty full with the two Salt Lake Malls they are buried in. If Godfrey can pull off his big dream without major Church money, then I would think that is what the Church would support. The Church for the most part seems to be taking a hands off approach to the whole affair.
Also I am pretty sure that Stuart Read was an emmisary of the Church to the Ogden City Government. Most of the main players in this comedy - tragedy are in the priesthood except Scott Brown - the token gentile. There isn't one of them that would go against the Church in any way. In Utah we would call that political suicide.
The real reason that the Mayor and his team are stone walling (no pun intended) the Epicopals is that churches do not pay property taxes on non commercial land, and the land would certainly not return any sales taxes. So from the Mayor's perspective it is a money loser, and after all it's all about money aint it?
Good points, Bonnie Lee.
Wow, the Trib sure got all of you fired-up. Of course, it's not "news" unless it appeals to your emotions.
The article did not say how much the "formal offer" was. Fair market value? A dollar an acre?
It also did not give the date the offer was put in. Last Friday? Two days ago? Two months ago?
And you'll notice, the statement that the city was "too busy" was not a direct quote.
I hope that is not what they said, but,who knows? Let's hope the city and the church can come to an agreement.
I remember when Mayor Dirk's tried to force them to sell in order to build the parking garage. I was glad they did not back down then, and, I hope they do not back down now.
Oh, and I'm not sure that all these articles are just for Ogden citizen's info. The Trib is doing a huge push to expand its subscriptions northward, so it can charge more for advertising. Let's all try to keep in mind this (and all media) is a business, not a public service announcement.
BTW I would be happy to attend a cottage meeting, or offer voter registration, or more information on the upcoming elections. Just e-mail me at dorimosher@hotmail.com, and make sure that you include, "election" in the subject.(otherwise I will delete it) Thank you.
It seems to me that knowing the precise terms of the church's standing offer is not what's really important here, d-mo.
The problem, as I see it, is that City officials seem to have put it all on the back-burner, rather than to have simply entered into negotiations, or -- if the offer was insufficient -- to have responded with a timely counter-offer. Dave Harmer says they've been "too busy," according to Ms. Moulton's story.
Granted, it's difficult to get a grasp of the "big picture," from reading a single newspaper article. But filling in the blanks in a story such as this is the very reason I operate this forum. There are thousands of folks who check in here on a regular basis. Perhaps one of them has more information on this. This isn't designed to be an advocacy blog. It's designed for discussion.
As for whatever "motive" the Salt Lake Tribune may have for publishing stories directed to an Ogden readership, I say that's entirely beside the point.
As numerous other readers have often commented here, our local "newspaper of record" sometimes falls down on the job in its reporting of important local stories. That we have an independent and dependable alternate news source located a mere 30 miles south of us serves us quite beneficially at times, when stories like the instant one recieve no other coverage, I think.
Lacking a second competing home town paper, both the Salt Lake Tribune and the Deseret Morning News often fill that sorely-lacking competitive role. It's these competing newspapers that keep the Std-Ex, editors "on their toes."
I would hope that you would at least agree with me that multiple news sources are superior to merely one.
So Dori, you know what the Trib's motives are, huh. They publish Ogden stories just to get subscriptions so they can charge more for advertising? Ever work on a newspaper? Ever sit in a City Council work session and see who that crew operates? Ever get Harmer aside, or somebody from the Curch of the Good Shepard and discuss "terms and conditions?"
Probably not.
Rudi's correct. An offer, any offer, is worth the time to look at it. Without an offer, there's absoultely no negotiation or discussion to begin. And if your premise that "it's business, it's all about the money" (para-phrased) is correct, then somebody at the City should have "looked at it." I'd hope you realize that as being you're a candidate for our council you should be well versed in how you position yourself, and so far, I'm not overly impressed with your views.
Thank you for your input. I was not trying to defend the city - at least not in this instance. If you knew MY background in small business and the things I ran into with working with the city in a timely manner, and finding any kind of support, you would know that I completely understand the frustration everyone involved feels.
However, I am merely trying to be reasonable, and look at all sides, until I can get more information.
Sorry if that does not impress you, but that is the platform I am running on.
If the city council does not receive information on an issue until "five minutes before a meeting" as Amy Wicks is quoted as saying, then I propose they had better table that issue, look at ALL sides, take the time to do their own research, listen to others opinions - as I am listening to yours, (and you both have presented good points, to which I thank you, and to which I will give consideration in future), and then, and only then, do I feel like I would be anywhere near qualified to make a prudent decision based on as much information as I can acquire as well as looking at what a "reasonable man" would decide. (supposedly the criteria for the supreme court's decisions).
I would hope that you would not want me to make a decision based on one lone article I had read in any newspaper, or on the opinion of one person -- but, you decide, which would you rather have me do?
Dori,
You act like you are an elected official...Just because you are running for office doesn't mean you know more than us mere peasant bloggers! C-mon, how can you seek office on a platform of "I need more information before I can comment?" Don't patronize us! Anyone can pay $25 to run for city office! I submit Rudi and the others who have opined know more than you think they know about government and Ogden politics!!!
Hmmm. Sounds like I touched a nerve. All these comments directed to little old me. I like that. There is only one thing worse than being talked about......not being talked about.
Oh, just so you know, I'm rather tough-skinned, so feel free to vent all you want.
Also, you will always know where I stand (and you can say, "you haven't made a stand" - but I did. I clearly stated I am for the church getting the land, the rest of the rhetoric is whatever you want to make it).
And, I don't hold a grudge, so if you disagree with me on an issue - COOL. I will never hold it against you. I will respect you for your opinion, and even more, if you have evidence - empirical, statistical, or whateve - I would love to see that.
Specifically to ogdenite, I think the bloggers on this site are highly intelligent. That is why I check in. Most have a well versed opinion, and many have links to articles,etc, that support their opinions. Those are invaluable to me. I look forward to opinions by rudi et. al. on government and Ogden. You think I am trying to patronize you? What exactly do you want from your officials. No one can be an expert on everything. I feel like I have a fairly good grasp on things, but in this case, I have been phoning the Good Shepherd all morning, and haven't gotten through. I don't know what they offered. I don't know when the offer was made. Yes, the city should bend over backwards to get them the land. But still, if I was in the city council, and I wanted to make something happen to assist them, I had better get the 411.
I'll tell you what I expect from the city council. Make an educated decision, not an emotional one. Don't be bullied, or persuaded just because you don't have the facts. Get them.
If you hold that against me, then so be it. It's what I believe, and what I think we need for our city. Too many decision have been made on too little information. Do you disagree?
I can list all of my credentials, and all my education, and blah, blah, blah. It means nothing if I am an impulsive decision maker, and if I refuse to listen to other people's opinions.
BTW most people tell me I'm too honest to be a politician.
Looks like we touched a nerve and you did make a decision, based on one little article: the Trib's doing Ogden stories to attract readers so they can up the ad rate.
Also, as for the CC votes....Wicks and Garcia are the only ones who question the timelyness of his lord master mayor's packets. But, they alone can't halt the vote. Proceed caustiously, D-Mo, as Jesse Garcia is not only a formidable foe, but he's one hell of a councilperson who will be really hard to replace. He has all the qualities.
Yo D Mo
Does that stand for Democrat Mormon? A very rare breed seldom seen in Utah for the last 50 years.
I would like to know why you decided to choose off Jesse Garcia - the most sane and humane person on the council. Why wouldn't you, with your populist postition, go for an at large seat? If you really believed what you have written on this blog then you would know that Jesse is the logical choice for that part of town. His representation of his constituents has been flawless and above reproach.
If you do not believe that Jesse has been an effective spokesman for the people of that district, then how about telling us why. How would you do it better, and what would you do different?
I think if you really gave a damn about all the citizens of Ogden that you would have gone against Burdett or Jorgansen, two of the worst enemies of the people to ever sit on the council.
Was your candidacy vetted in any way by the mayor or his team? Are you the "mayor's" candidate as it has been suggested? Are you the one that the mayor has pinned his hopes on to unseat Jesse?
We know the clever little bugger has a horse in every race, are you the one in your district? Larsen is his pony in that race. Are you and Larsen the mayor's great hope to maintain his majority on the council?
Have you been certified to be free of the dreaded RDA disease?
What is your position on eminent domain?
Do you really think you can beat Jesse?
Are you dillusional?
No, I'm not dillusional.
And I did not base my idea about the trib on one article, I based it on the fact that I get a call at least once a week from them trying to sell me a subscription, and actually having them say to me they are trying to expand northward.
Don't tell me how Jesse has voted, tell me what he has done. Does he read his info packets before his meetings? Then why is he always asking questions that are answered in them. Has he ever presented an alternate view with clarity and with opposing research that he actually bothered to do? I will. I sat on the Marshall White Advisory Committee for over a year with Butch Sawyer as we watched the budget get cut. Jesse did not fight for it. I will. He has not even done the simple task of fighting for neighborhoods' entitled rights to a street light every mid-block. I will. He has not contacted UTA to acquire noise barrier walls to divide the freeway from the citizens of west Ogden. I will.
For the past eight years I have devoted hundreds of hours of volunteer service to my community. I have volunteered countless hours assisting children with reading and math. I have done neighborhood clean-ups. I created and ran an after-school science program for at-risk children in the Ogden City School District, and many, many other things.
Now tell me again what Jesse has done for my community.
Dori,
I'm sure you will see what Jesse has done for this community come Oct & Nov. Your berating a guy that nearly had 50% of Ogden's vote for mayor last year. I'm sure like all the other 19 people running for office this election you feel you are qualified. I don't think it's in your best interest to attack a tenured public servant, it's very easy to do when you have no public record for one to examine! Jesse has many times stood alone against the popular or loudest issue, only to stick up for the common citizen. Ask the legal Hispanic community what he has done for them! With all due respect, if volunteer hours qualified one for office, my grandma would the governor.
This is one tough blog, eh? You'd better have a thick hide, D-Mo....I go to many City Council meetings, and I've never seen you at one. Therefore, how do you support your claim about the "info packets," the lack of Jesse's questions, et al.
A good point about voluteer work. I admisre that, but Ogdenite pretty much put that in perspective with his grandmother analogy.
Talk to us about RDA, eminent domain, the mall and Godfrey's other projects that have broken the financial back of the town. You need to remember, a council voice by itself doesn't get much done....it's the body that has the power.
Appears that D-mo has taken the WCF broadside. Thick skinned and all.
I agree, one should not attack a man of Garcia's character moreso than presenting one's OWN qualifications. Might be political suicide.
But then, who am I to suggest to anyone how to run a race? I would choose my words well, however, and my opponent.
Looks like the babe ain;t as thick skinned as she claims. After the blasting she took, she's conspicuously gone to ground.
Does she have what it takes to be on the council?
Ah, Amy, hearing from you gives me strength and hope. Enjoy Europe, but be careful over there and get home safely. The City needs you.
PRI, in case some don't know who that is, is the LDS Church's real estate arm. A link from the historical Episcopal Church to the mall would be a great start....it would initiate ACTIVITY, which is what I remember the Mayor saying it was all about, "Attracting others." For the boys Downtown to be too busy to even "look at the offer," is demonstrable of their arrogance and blinder wearing attitude. They feel, I'm afraid, that they are the only ones capable of getting the mall back up and running.
Private enterprise is the answer, not Dave Harmer, Rick Safsten, Kent Jorgenson, Donna Burdett, Greg Johnson, or Mayor Godfrey....it's people like you and me who can right this floundering ship.
Political novice course available: try the WCF blogsite. There the candidate will learn that their words and message will be scrutinized to the hilt, and if found to be lacking in perspective or good sense, that will be brought to his/her attention.
Politics and city leadership is a tough game, so expect some tough, but fair, treatment. When one comes of as patronizing, assailing a good man of character (negative campaigning) and challenging, "I'm rather tough skinned so feel free to vent all you want," (remember Gary Hart's challenge to the press during his Presidential run and the outcome?), the candidate should expect "no quarter given." Becareful what you ask for for you just might get it.
Now, this D-mo babe has suddenly disappeared. Probably lets you folks in Ward #2 see how tough she really is. If she can't take a little knocking around on a fairly new blogsite, how the hell will she act when the opposition and others come at her full force on the council, if she'd happens to upset Jesse Garcia in the City Election? Better to find out now, than to find out later. We don't need another Godfrey thing happening here (we put him in office and now we see what he really is and we're stuck with him for a couple more years).
I wonder if the Mayor warned here about all this when he talked her into taking a shot at Jesse? For a moment I felt a touch of pity, but what the hell, she claimed to be a big girl and at the first sign of "hard politics," she's fled the scene. This ain't going to go down in her column of assets.
Atta boy, Jesse. Not to worry about this D-mo person, as she'll last about as long in the race as she did on the blog. A little heat, a bit of disagreement, and GONE! Not quite up to the standards that she portrayed herself to be. She's not posting now but she's reading, so D-mo, how d'ya like them apples?
Garcia for LIFE!
So much for D-Mo....can you believe it? Her campaign shot down in flames in 1 day on a blogsite. Like somebody asked earlier: where's the beef?
One sorry affair.
She's obviously Godfrey's bitch.
She shoulda known she was getting a free berth on Godfrey's "titanic II."
Just when the going gets good, D-mo cuts and runs. So much for the Mayor's hand-picked candidate. But, it's par for the course: one more failed project!
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