One of our gentle readers has made it clear in an earlier thread that he's "licking his chops" to get on with some red meat discussion here, and I'm happy to accommodate him. Inasmuch as Rudi will be pre-occupied into the mid to late afternoon with certain pressing real-life obligations, he probably won't get around to posting a new substantive article until later on in the afternoon today.With that in mind, here's an open thread. Feel free to get the hot coals going, and don't hesitate to start broiling up what ever red meat you've brought with you. Let's make it "pot luck" until Rudi gets back.
One possible topic that you might want to discuss -- and this is just a suggestion -- is the table manners of some of our gentle readers, with respect to certain city council candidate newcomers whom Rudi's invited here.
Rudi's already getting concerned emails about this.
What sort of etiquette ought to be observed here, anyway? Will we treat our new guests with dignity and respect -- or will we behave as baboons here at Rudi's picnic table?
17 comments:
I vote for Baboons.
I may be wrong but I haven't read anything that has been innappropriate towards any candidate. Sure there has been heated discussion, but nothing a candidate (who has attacked her opponent) shouldn't be able to handle. I thought thats what a blog is for, to be able to see all views and to debate them. People come here to do just that! Rudi has invited these candidates to come and share their platform, I hope not to have a free pass to spew anything without a response.
I agree, Ogdenite....the first post be D-mo was met with some hardball responses, but nothing a "thick hide" gal like D-mo couldn't take, as she attested to in her reply.
Those e-mailers must be pretty touchy, if ya ask me.
This is a tough business the candidates are in. I don't advocate calling any one of them a #%*&!*%^& SOB, but I sure as hell don't want to pull my punches and do the soft shoe with them. Heck people, they're asking us for our votes, and as Safsten says, "it ain't about debating the color of fire hydrants." If it's too hot in the kitchen, hire a cook and take a seat in the dining room.
It all boils down to the ultimate question:
Do you want to talk to the city council candidates...
Or just talk about them?
I dont think we need to be told what it boils down to. Of course we want to talk to all of them. But talking to them doesn't mean agreeing with them. Also in talking to them we expects some kind of answer as to where they stand on any particular issue. We want to elect someone who has a solution or a stand on an issue, not one who is trying to walk the tight rope of "my mind is not made up yet, I need more information."
"Of course we want to talk to all of them."
Most of us probably do. I know I do.
Some people here, however, seem to want to immediately drown them out.
That's my impression, at least.
I'd suggest we all react to newbies here with grace and hospitality.
That would be a good start.
I hope Rudi will also consider the possiblity that "some people in Ogden" might be inclined to torpedo the discussion board which he's worked so hard to create.
Just a thought.
I don't see anything that's so terribly bad here. Of course I've been playing on the internet since about 1981. What you read here is pretty typical of the normal street talk that I hear around Ogden, too. If certain political candidates can't stand the heat here, they won't listen to the people on the street, either, or in the City Council. What I think we need in Ogden politics is people who'll listen to us in our own language. Don't change anything Rudy, especially the way we really talk. They can try to ignore us if they choose, but you've finally gien us a place where we can find out who will talk to the people and who won't.
Andrew
Kudos Andy!!!
Baboons?
Neanderthals is more like it.
I would hope that no one would call a prospective Ogden City Council Member a Neanderthal here on this forum.
(Couldn't resist that.)
I would think that mainly we would want to ask questions. See where they stand on certain issues we have discussed here----the many projects funded by RDA dollars, the lack of allocated funds for capital improvements, like the water system, the pulling of funds for places like the Marshall White Center in favor of these projects, the use of eminent domain against the homeowner in favor of a corporate entity--things like that.
(Didn't someone---was it Ozboy, perhaps?--have a great list of questions to ask on another entry? Or am I confusing things here?)
We could even get their stand on ferrets and motels. Then we'd really know where they're coming from.
I'd like to stand on a ferret in a motel until the little sucker su--------!
Since this is an open thread, I have some questions I would like to have answered and will put them here.
Did Ogden City really pay $138,000 for a letter of credit for the rec center funding, or is this still at the talking stage?
Was the ground at the Children's Treehouse Museum site ever tested for toxic contaminants? If not, is anyone doing that now?
Is R&O's bid for the rec center now dead, or on hold, or what is happening with that?
Why the big push for the Basin Gondola and the Hub Gondola? From what or whom are the gondola devotees going to ask for funding?
Would it be possible to end-run around the previous allocation for the tax increments intended for the rec center? If the rec center stalls, can that money be re-allocated, even though the stipulation for its use was to have the allocation in and approved by a certain date?
What is the timeline on the rec center contamination issue? When will we know where that stands?
Anybody have any answers??
Just took a look at the SL Trib and found some. Two articles about Ogden today, both by Kristen Moulton. The fact that they are running together on the same day is really interesting, as you will see.
The first one deals with contamination at the mall site.
In one test hole on the 1.5-acre site, the concentration of diesel fuel residue was 1,040 times higher than the level at which the state requires action.
Okay, well then, this will require some attention, one would think.
The second article deals with the fact that Ogden City is trying to get financing to pay back the money the federal government contends it misappropriated from BDO. It is now revealed that this is the 30 million dollar loan we have discussed previously, and part of it is also going to pay the short term 5 million dollar loan we obtained to pay the Woodbury lawsuit, the interest of which is over 30 thousand a month.
How will we pay this back?
"Johnson said the $30 million loan would be repaid with a combination of lease revenue and tax-revenue increases from the new mall and BDO. The refinancing is expected to be completed in October, he said.
But wait! The "new mall" is stalled because of toxic contamination, as we see in the first article. This is not generating revenue.
We are refinancing the money we owe BDO with money earned from BDO? A portion of which we are supposed to be funneling back into BDO?
This sounds a bit shaky to me.
Here are links to both articles:
Ogden recreation center development stalled by solvents in groundwater
Ogden works on financing to repay loan to depot
Thank you, Kristen.
Oops. Made a mistake on that $5 million short term loan interest. The loan is at 4%. The minimum interest payment is $33,333 for sixty days. So per month would be more like $16,666.
The council approved this loan mid-July, and they expected to have it paid back in the two months.
From the article on the loan:
The loan is not collateralized and, in the event of default, the Ogden Redevelopment Agency and city would use tax increment funds from development of the downtown mall site and lease revenue from the BDO to cover the obligation.
Yet again.
I was under the impression that monies earned from the BDO would be put back into the BDO, until the City's obligation to the Army was met. Godfrey already did an "end around" to tear down the mall with BDO funds and got the Army a little bit miffed. Then the Woodbury fiasco, combined with the BDO "end around" promted the original $20 million loan, and now the $2.5 million loan for gym equipment, plus the Letter of Credit charges and the....aw for hell sakes, I'm lost and can't go on. And neither should he.
Dian, you never cease to amaze me with your thorougness of research and your articulate posting as to the facts. We are in trouble in Ogden. The Mayor leans heavily on the BDO and so many funds are comitted from there, he's close to bankrupting the place.
Now, consider the lease revenue. What lease revenue? The money that Fat and Gold will pay? Oh what a tangled web....
We need somebody to get the facts on this whole mess, explain it in plain, simple language, and see where the city really is. Godfrey won't come clean; the Standard won't print anything about it, for some reason they are either keeping it buried or are just plain getting scooped by the Trib. And we, the people, are and will be expected to pick up the pieces.
My prediction: the wreck center is DEAD! It'll never get off the ground, due to delays, costs, and complications. Those behind it have created such an entanglement that I don't see how it can survive. Like they did with eminent domain, they've done with this RDA madness. They've created a monster and it's beginning to unravel.
Thank you, politico. It sometimes has seemed to me that I am sort of alone in being deeply concerned about this massive debt. Here this is going on and people are trying to build enthusiasm for these gondolas.
From the news coverage, it appears that the only revenue the city has to finance anything, whether it be the issuance of bonds for rec center development or the refinancing of its own debt, is mall site development and BDO.
Well, there are No revenues currently emanating from mall site development that I know of except for the one sale to Earnshaw Enterprises,, and we Owe money to BDO! Kristen's article makes it clear that we are trying to pay what we Owe BDO with money from mall site development and, once again, BDO.
We also now have additional costs incurred from state mandated toxic clean-up, and I imagine the costs of constructing the rec center have popped up since we did not meet R&O's August 31st deadline.
This simply doesn't make any sense as it stands. I cannot imagine what loan officer or lending institution would look at this situation and be willing to work with us at all. The term they would use is "overextended."
In addition to this, the July 13th article in the Standard about Ogden City refinancing its debt mentioned the figure as being $20 million.
The Ogden City Council agreed Tuesday night that Mayor Matthew Godfrey can obtain a $5 million short-term loan to settle a legal dispute at the downtown mall site. The loan will be repaid with a separate $20 million long-term loan the city plans to obtain early next month to refinance all debt associated with the downtown mall site and Business Depot Ogden, said Nate Pierce, the city's chief administrative officer.
Since this figure is now $30 million, the conclusion is that in a little over one month, we have evidently incurred a need for $10 million more dollars to pay off debt.
This is astounding.
To me, the best solution for Ogden City right now is divest, divest, divest. Start selling off all the accumulated property of the past few years and start paying things down. We may be land rich and dollar poor, and if we are, there is a chance we can turn this around, painful as it may be to sacrifice these proposed projects. Yes, the carpetbaggers may come in, but that's the chance we have to take at this point, to my way of thinking.
There does come a time when one cuts his loses and retires, therein maintaining the ability and resources to fight another day.
Post a Comment