You had to know I wouldn't let this go by, without making at least a passing comment:
"Retired" Ogden City Councilman Kent Jorgensen caused this central-planning screed to be published in the Sunday Standard-Examiner letters section. He complains legislators are interfering with the "vision." He calls upon his fellow Utah socialists to write their legislators. He still doesn't understand why conservative legislators, elected representatives of the ALL the freedom-loving people of Utah, are clipping the wings of city council schemers and real estate developer wanna-be mayors in the State of Utah. He's preaching Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged plot theme all in reverse. He and his statist comrades still believe it's the government that makes it all happen in America, and that the luddites in the legislature are hampering the grand "vision."
I've talked til I was blue in the face about how wrong he and his cronies are. He doesn't understand the free market. He still doesn't even understand why he and his gang-of-six comrades were unceremoniously defeated. Perhaps some of our gentle readers will be willing to help "educate" Kent on this.
Comments, anyone? Let's try to help out poor old Kent on this.
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21 comments:
Good Lord, Rudi, take a pill. Go skiing. Relax. Your characterization of Jorgenson's letter is way off the mark.
He addressed several things in it and I don't think anyone could fairly descirbe it as you did as some kind of socialist central planning manifesto.
He argued, not unreasonably, that the legislature is considering a number of actions that could well unreasonably tie the hands of city governments, with unhappy consequences. Such as, for example, the loss of revenue to municipalities that might result from elimination of the food tax absent measures to replace the funds from another account. This is not a trivial matter to bring up.
A bill to mandate the city-manager form of government surely will restrict local control [and smacks heavily of the "central planning" model you dislike so much: the legislature dictating to municipalities what form of government they must, like it or not, adopt. The City Manager model has much to recommend it, and some drawbacks, but either way, seems to me... and to Jorgenson... that the choice should be left to the voters of each municipality, as it is now.]
Yes, he'd like, clearly, to see at least some of cities' eminent domain powers for redevelopment restored. He also, please note, concedes the power has been abused. What he's arguing is that we not throw the baby out with the bathwater. There have been cities that have not abused the power, and have used it responsibility and well, for the benefit of the whole community. Jorgenson and I would probably not agree on how much the power should be limited, but his letter hardly adds up to some kind of socialist screed for central planning and the people be damned.
I'm beginning to suspect that your animus to former Councilman Jorgenson is so great, that you are unable to asses anything he advocates fairly and dispassionately.
Take the suggestions in his letter one at a time [some I concur with, some I don't], and evaluate them on their merits , regardless of Jorgenson having made them. It really is irrelevent who made them. Good governance requires that policy decisions stand or fall on their own merits, period. Hell, even Hizzonah occasionally has a good idea. Not often, I agree, but sometimes.
LOL, Curmudgeon. I've actually come to like Kent quite a lot. I think he's a decent enough fellow, but his thinking is wholly contaminated with communalist philosphy. That, however, does NOT make him a bad person. No, my comments were not intended to be ad hominem. It's the central planning ideas that I despise.
The problem, as I see it, is the breadth of Utah RDA law. RDAs are even now so flush with extraordinary "powers" that it's difficult for me to see how the problems of abuse can ever be "cured" without throwing out the baby, the bathwater... and perhaps the whole bath-tub.
Senator Bramble and other legislators have been hammering out "compromise" RDA legislation over the summer, however, so it will be interesting to see what they come up with this session. It's obvious to me, though, that further curbs will be placed on local governments, such as accounting standards for public-private leases. You'll be interested to hear, in this regard, that Senator Bramble will be introducing Rep. Hansen's earlier-tabled bill on this subject in the senate. You can view the latest version of it here.
The city-manager mandate bill would not really restrict local control, BTW, but would merely shift power to the city council. I thus see it as a non-issue, with respect to RDA abuse.
The food tax is also a peripheral issue, I believe, although it's one of the most facially unfair taxing mechanisms on the books. The tax could be abolished, and the revenue recaptured, simply by raising the tax rate on discretionary goods. That's what should happen, I believe, and I don't recall the discussion of abolishing the tax on food without legislating a revenue replacement mechanism.
I try to consider all issues on the merits; and I would hope you'd forgive a little blogger hyperbole. A good part of my role here is to stir up discussion; and the "cranky" tone is helpful in that regard, if you know what I mean -- and I think you do.
Mr. Jorgenson and others forget that, an ill-advised and cowardly Supreme Court not withstanding, NO government entity has a right to take anyone's property to turn it over to a private entity for ANY purpose!! PERIOD!!!!!
Rudi-
I'll take on the role of being cranky today.
Local government officials should not have the right to whine and throw a fit when the laws are tightened up so giving PRIVATE land to a PRIVATE entity is not an option.
Hiring a lobbyist at taxpayer expense (including those taxpayers potentially in the eminent domain crosshairs) to try to get back the use of eminent domain for economic development is just plain wrong in my opinion.
Have to disagree with you on the food tax Rudi.
Without it most of these large breeding operations known as "eternal families" that we have here in Utah would pay no taxes at all!
As it is, they place a huge burden on the tax payers of Utah with their large herds, yet the way the tax code is they pay little or nothing to the state. Is that fair?
The only sane way to elliminate the food tax would be to replace it with a breeding tax.
EXCELLENT Bonnie.......
Bonnie, Do I smell a "Tragedy of the Commons" agrument coming on here? Hardin would be as proud as can be of you!
Democrat
"Tragedy of the Commons" "Hardin"
Please explain for us great unwashed.
Here you go, Bonnie...
I confess I had to google it myself.
This might be sort of off topic, but it is along the same lines.
I clicked on the link on the sidebar for the Utah League of Cities and Towns today to see what it is and what they do. The members from Ogden in this organization are listed as: Bill Cook, Mark Johnson, Nate Pierce, and Donna Burdette.
What I found intriguing is that the League publishes a Municipal Officers Handbook, and it says that this has been "newly revised for 2006." This tome costs $40 for members and $30 for non-members. I of course would be interested in seeing the League's perspective as to what municipal officers should be doing.
I have heard of the League of Cities and Towns referred to on this blog as a pro central planning organization. I really can't tell from its page--it states that it is involved in promoting and helping cities and towns.
But anyway--has anyone seen the handbook? And if so, what do you think?
The Utah League of Cities and Towns (ULCT) is an association of the Cities and Towns in Utah. It provides training and support for member cities and towns. Probably the biggest support function is that it lobbies for it's members.
As for members, it is the municipality that is the member not individuals from municipalities. So if you saw a list of names that was probably members of a committee within the league.
The training that the league does is probably what Rudi would be opposed to since it is based mostly on academic backed and experience backed people. Most of these are not the type that would agree much with Rudi NTTAWWT.
Since the league is representing the governments of the cities and towns obviously they are going to be looking out for the power and revenues of the cities. Looking to maintain and expand both as much as possible.
Since there are approx. 241 member municipalities there are many times when issues come up where the membership is split as to the position to take. When there is serious division the league often will remain neutral.
Dian, I will see if I can get a copy of that book and if you would like to borrow it, we will see if that can be arranged.
Thanks, arcritic--I think it would be interesting to take a look at it.
I've often thought that what causes the most conflict in government is fundamentally opposed ideologies. Like what Rudi said in this article about those who think that no progress can be made without the intervention of government, as opposed to those who believe that the most progress is made under a free market economy that encourages private enterprise and little or no government involvement.
So I would be really interested to see the League of Cities and Towns handbook for municipal officers to see if the League takes a side on this issue, and to what extent.
"The training that the league does is probably what Rudi would be opposed to since it is based mostly on academic backed and experience backed people. Most of these are not the type that would agree much with Rudi NTTAWWT."
If by that you mean I disdain the class of "social engineers" who emerge in thousands every year with college degrees designed to interfere in the free market, then you're right.
Yes. The universities have generated and given bogus academic degrees to a generation of Americans.
Urban Planning degrees create a vested interest in their recipients in promoting grand scheming, central planning, and lifelong "degreed" careers in thwarting the free market.
It's an endless socialist loop.
They think; because the are.
So when did you first succumb to the "secret handshake, ARCritic?
I do believe there are two sides to the planning debate.
In Russia there was "Central Planning". In America the central planning is at the local level. Here it is not the party that makes the decision it is the academics/think tanks that "guide" the planning which takes place at the local level.
I hope I am fighting each day to withstand succumbing to the "secret handshake". But didn't you suggest that Riverdale should deny some property owners the right to develop their property?
I have to say that I am fairly conflicted when I attend the training sessions at the league. On the one hand I can understand the goals of proper planning and how the tools that planners and local governments have can be used to accomplish those goals. But I can also see how those same tools can and are used to abuse property rights.
My goal in governing is to try to balance those two competing issues to the benefit of everyone.
Of course, usually that means I simply fall flat on my face and everyone ends up being mad and abused.
If you have been paying attention here I think you can see that.
Arcritic:
Exactly right. Some proper and effective balance between planning/regulation and free market economics is the goal.
For all the "get government off the backs of business" types, permit me to remind you that we have a history in this country. We know what happens when all regulation ceases and the market is allowed to run free. Greed takes over and becomes the guiding principle of business ethics. We know this. Can we all say now, together, "Savings and Loan crisis" and "Enron"?
But there's more. Like the child labor that characterized American industrial practices in the Gilded Age [aka Age of the Robber Barons]. Like the rat droppings and worse, packaged and sold as "food" in those years. [It's instructive now and then, to re-read Upton Sinclair's The Jungle to see what life sans any government regulation of industry in the public interest was really like.] Think you want to go back to the industrial conditions of the late 19th century? Then by all means, continue the crusade to "get government off the backs of business."
But as a society we've been there. Done that. Got the tee shirt. Over and over again. We know what happens when government is taken wholly out of the picture as a regulator of business conduct in the public interest. We know .
Of course the regulatory process can be --- has been --- abused. But the solution is not to end it, but to end the abuses and improve the process.
So Arcritic is exactly right on this. The public good requires a middle way between the devil-take-the-hindmost laissez faire dreams of the Ken Lays and Dick Chaney's of this world, and the over-regulated, innovation crushing control freaks of the old Communist left of whom there are left, at least in this nation so far as I can tell, maybe five. And they're in nursing homes.
Curmudgeon
Beg to differ here. There are at least "six" left. You seemed to have forgotten the twerp on the ninth floor who unfortunately is far from a rest home.
With thanks to "Will" I say "First thing we do is kill all the politicians" Second thing is to of course kill all the robber barons you refer to.
Thats the spirit Ozboy, get rid of those fighting and loving at the top and the rest of us will live in peace.
Sorry if you can't hear the sarcastic tone in my words there, but you also have to understand that innovation and progress is pushed by the "robber barons" of the world. Luckily we have figured out that government has a roll in limiting the abuses of the "robber barons". But when the pendulum swings too far the other way or government thinks they must protect everyone from even themselves, or, as the case is argued here at times, becomes the "robber baron", then the people need to rise up and take the power back.
Unfortunately, from my experience as an elected official, it would seem that the personality usually required to become an elected official is the exact type of personality that leads to the abuses in government noted above.
I find that my personality and my views on government (even if rudi thinks I have drunk the coolaid), make me very uncomfortable in my position. Just as I feel fairly uncomfortable with a lot of the comments made here.
Like the post that started this thread. Rudi, uses hyperbola to get the most response possible in the thread, get people riled up enough that they will actually take the time to respond and keep the discussion going. That use while I sometimes think goes over the top is his goal. And vigorous debate is good, but vitriolic debate only spawns hatred and mistrust.
Not really sure where this post is going now but all I know is that when I come here I feel like an outsider because I think government can be good and when I go to council meeting I feel like an outsider because I think government can be bad. And you wonder why more good people don't enter politics?
Arcritic
Sorry if you didn't hear the sarcastic tone in my words there.
I, tongue in cheek, advocated "killing" all the robber barons - not the legit and moral captains of industry that are the ones responsible for the progress and innovation you write of. I also should have specified which politicians that should be "killed". I really meant the arrogant, self promoting and evil ones. But then how would Shakespeare have read if he got so specific with the "kill all the lawyers" line?
I do appreciate politico's, like yourself, who wrassle with these moral and ethical issues that they face. We definately need more like you in the game - especially in Ogden. Why don't you move here and run for mayor in two years? We aint as rich as Riverdale, but we got a hell of a lot more heart and soul.
I'm not quite convinced that Jorgensen's a Central Planner. He does lean, however, toward the urbanization therocracy. I'm not sure why.
Is there a Gorbachav lurking somewhere in Ogden City Government, hidden beneath the overlays, waiting to rise from the veil of seclusion, to take Ogden on a journey of "free enterprise works" instead of the mantra of Economic Development for all?
We'll see.
holmes
Let's hope there is a Gorby some where in Ogden's government. God knows we have suffered enough under the short version of Stalin these last six years.
So, Arcritic, are you Mark Johnson or Bill Cook? Can't believe Burdett is the writer. You said 'you are in training" with the League of Towns and Cities. Still don't know what the heck you people do...how much is your salary? Will you blow your cover when you give Dian a copy of the book? Will you leave it under a bush in the park or some other clandestine place?
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