Ogden Mayor Matthew Godfrey and Chris Peterson have fostered a mutually beneficial relationship. Peterson's business could profit from the mayor's decisions, and Godfrey could profit from an association with Peterson and his wealthy family.
Despite being locked out of this relationship, the rest of us should realize it for what it is. Peterson wants to open a resort at Malan's Basin, and a smart businessman should try to get as many people to his resort as possible, while also avoiding any possible expense.
Peterson's answer: Build a relationship with the mayor. Talk him into building a gondola all the way from the Intermodal Transportation Hub right up to the resort.
Then, sell this corrupt idea as Ogden's transportation solution. Make it sound even better by saying the city will save its share of the expense by selling a golf course to a developer (that is, Chris Peterson).
Peterson eventually gets free transportation from all over northern Utah to his resort, and prime real estate to develop an upscale community. We can only speculate as to what Godfrey gets out of the deal. However, he will not get mass -- much less rapid -- transit in Ogden.
Just imagine yourself as a Weber State student with an early-morning class. You've got a limited amount of time to get there, but you're stuck with a gondola that moves slowly as it hovers above Harrison Boulevard. Now imagine driving yourself to school because Godfrey and Peterson were slick enough to sell this very bad idea.
Scott Kolts
Franklin, Tenn.
Editor's Note: This piece is from the April 4, 2006 Std-Ex letters to editor section.
Thursday, April 06, 2006
Peterson Will Benefit From the Deal With Godfrey
© 2005 - 2014 Weber County Forum™ -- All Rights Reserved
53 comments:
Just what we need, a Tennesse Hillbilly telling us what is in the best interest of Utah. This is really unbelievable. What does someone in Tennesse know about what our needs are. I better get prepared to read his rebuttal because he certainly is a expert on a community thousands of mile from his Tennesse home.
As one who DRIVES from Clearfield to WSU three days a week our Tennesse man who probably was an extra in Deliverence obviously has never tried to get to WSU via 40th St. at 7:00 in the morning. There are cars backed up from below Washington to Harrison. Then when you reach campus and even with a parking pass you can not find a parking space. I repeat, CAN NOT find a parking place. This week I had to park up in the weeds and tromp through the muck. Living in Clearfield and having to fight Hill AFB traffic, Riverdale Rd. traffic, 40th St traffic I would pay double what it cost me to drive my car and pay for a parking pass that is virtually no good, to be able able to jump on commuter rail in Clearfield at the Clearfield stop and ride to the Ogden stop then get on the Gondola and either read or catch a few Z's in a quite ride up to WSU. Betcha it wouldnt take more than 30 -45 minutes total. Hurry Ogden and get that dang thing built, I will buy the first pass. By the way, I could care less about that Peterson guys halucination of a ski resort or could care less if he makes a trillion dollars of of the golf course. I'm just like the rest of you in that I am selfish and want what is best for me. GONDOLA GUY FROM THE HOME OF THE UNWASHED CLEARFIELD, UTAH.
BEFORE I GET EATEN BY THE BLOG VULTURES, I MEANT "quiet ride" NOT QUITE RIDE. HOWEVER, IT COULD BE QUITE A RIDE. WHERE DO I SIGN UP TO HELP?
How funny!
Queerfieldite retard looks down his dribbling uncultured nose at Tennessee.
Wake up and smell the Sanka, Queerfield Retard!
If you're not part of the problem...
I'll eat my cowboy hat!
“ Well now “ There seems to be some smoke blowing from someone’s hinny.
I decided to jump in my truck and go see what all the hype about the gondola is about. My venture started a 23rd and wall where the gondola main station and I would assume gondola maintenance building is planed to be. If emanate domain could not secure the property to the north west on Mayor Godfrey grand scheme for Wal-Mart then it ‘s a sure thing it will not work for Peterson’s gondola. The Shupe fire starts to make cense, as the space will come in handy for parking or the maintenance building. I headed east on 23rd and came to the old Ogden Mall sight. Driving around it to continue east on 23rd was like rubbing salt in a old wound for me because I remember the opposition to it when it was built and the business men at the time predicting all the businesses moving to Riverdale and Layton. It is kind of ironic that my father bought me my first set of Heart skies with Cubco bindings at Save-on ‘s sporting goods store in 1958, it was a well established business that along with many other well established businesses the Ogden mall displaced. It is ironic that Peterson motors moved to Riverdale but why should they have to put up with Ogden city’s administration’s strong-arm business practices and a tax brake to boot. Given current events some might see Peterson Motors as “ Turn Coat’s”. Looking at the mud hole that is left after the mall was demolished, according to the Ogden City annual Financial report (June 2005 CAFR) On Mayor Godfrey’s dream the outstanding balance that the Ogden RDA is reasonable for is 18+ million dollars of witch the over whelming majority was for the mall. Millions of 2001-2002 dollars to out of town out of state businesses to demolish the mall. That makes the mayors concern for local economy superficial in my book. 5 million plus interest barrowed went to the Woodbury Corp. settlement because the mayor had something tore down that did not belong to Ogden and could with correct planning been avoided. 10 million bonded in Nov. as a last ditch effort by the mayor and old council to continue with the adventure land dream that is most likely going to pay back the money the Army will not let the mayor spend from BDO. Hazard waste and renovation/ removal of parking tares steal pelage the mall sight. Take a look and see if you would let Mayor Godfrey be your investment advisor. Can you imagine at this rate what a 20 million dollar gondola is going to look like? what a disaster? Traveling up 23rd street from Washington to Harrison Blvd. (I do not wish to insult the folk’s that live there.) would be the” Plumbers Crack” portion of the tourist attraction as it is a part of town that is not a definition of tourist attraction by any standard. Turn right on Harrison Blvd. Past the old sight of the long gone Dee Hospital on 24th were I was born in the 50’s (“ oh my god” I’m a “Do Wop” baby) to WSU. Riding along Harrison Blvd. You get a closer look at the mountains but steal hardly a tourist attraction. Up 36 streets to the foothills you would only see the north side of WSU. So until you get to the base of mount Ogden there is a very little to draw tourists. In my truck the ride took 25 to 30 min. most likely it would take at least twice that for a gondola. So why don’t we start the gondola there? It is easy to see that there would be no place for parking unless Peterson was to tear down some very nice homes to build parking lots. WSU has some maintenance buildings and what appears to be the security building on the north east of the campus. If you drive up there and look you will see like I did that to get to Malians Basin you need to cross WSU property or Mount Ogden park\ golf cores, or buy some very expensive looking well kept homes to get there. And there is a secondary water canal that would need to be reworked to build homes above Mount Ogden Park. So it seams unless I missed something Peterson is somewhat land locked.
I went over to Mount Ogden Park and Golf Course to see what Ogden would be giving up to relies Petersons dream. There is also part of it that belongs to Margaret. The park and golf coarse represent some of the best property in all the Ogden area. People need to get out and see it before it gets sold so Ogden can buy Peterson a gondola to his as of yet undeveloped ski resort. Milan’s Basin is not even in Ogden city limits according to the map on Ogden city web sight. Go see it. It is for shore one place in Ogden that dose not needs to be fixed. It has not been that long ago that Mayor Godfrey sold the bill of goods that Ogden needed this Golf coarse. There was lots of opposition that wanted the donated park left alone but the mayor built it any way. So now is the Mayor B.S.ing everyone now or was he B.S.ing everyone then. I do not know for shore but I heard that his home is near the golf coarse. This needs some looking into.
The Ogden City Annual Financial Report for June of 2005 (CAFR) is posted on the Ogden City web sight. Page 87 shows that the golf coarse fund accounts for two golf facilities. Page 90 shows (June 30 2005 report, most resent) operating income loss of
241,283.00 This accounts for two golf facilities. This is in contrast to the 3,745,168.00 long-term interest dept Ogden must pay. I think some one is blowing smoke don’t you? The only reason to go through with this folly is GREED. The Enron Kind.
There are two kinds of lies going around Ogden. One starts with this ant no shit and the other starts with we need this gondola to progress…
PS ask the Mayor what the annual loss at the Ogden Airport is ?
Bucky Boy,
yew shore do make a lot of cense! I don't think you is as dumm as yew spel.
Gondola Guy....I agree that getting around Ogden when classes are starting or ending is a horrendous feat. However, your schedule was approved by you. By the time a gondola could be up and lowly moving...you should have several years seniority in your new profession.
In the meantime, I suggest you may want to live in a dorm...I understand there is a 20% vacancy. You would save on gasoline, and wear and tear on your car and nerves. Unless you live rent free at mom and dad's and they pay for everything you need.
The 'hillbilly' from TN may have lived here and understands this area and its needs very well.
I can't think of any sane person who would let Godfrey be his financial advisor...and Ogden doesn't need him either.
Godfrey told his LO supporters that only 5 Million would be realized from the sale of the golf course and half of that goes to the school disrict. Pray tell, what portion of a gondola will 2.5 million purchase? Oh yeah, there will be another 2.5 million from the Shupe fire....IF the investigators release that dough. And what portion of the gondola will FIVE million purchase? Enough to tear up the roads and inconvenience everyone. Gondola Guy, you think you have troubles NOW? Just wait.
It's admirable that you ADMIT to be being selfish...but that is not an admirable trait.
like you Gon. Guy, I don't want to be eaten by the vultures on this blog either.
I meant the gondola would be "Slow moving". phew...glad I caught that!
Say Bucky,
When you were on 23rd St...you forgot to envision the mayor's 'vision': the gondola will pass through the 2nd story of a yet to be built hotel on the corner of 23rd and WA, as I understand visions.
I just bet Alb. NM can't boast that! Or anywhere else. I'm thinking that our visionary Matt and his visionary daddy (in-law) had this come to them in a shared dream. Ogden: First in the nation....no matter the aberration!
Please, please gondola guy - do NOT continue this idiotic idea that the gondola is the answer to our transportation problems. This woudl not even make a dent in the parking problem at Weber State. Promote this thing if you feel you must but at least be honest enough to call it what it really is - do NOT give us this "transportation" nonsense!!!
I HAVE RECENTLY LEARNED THAT CHRIS PETERSON HAS PURCHASED A SMALL SERVICE STATION ON THE NORTHWEST CORNER OF 23RD AND HARRISON. THE GENTLEMAN LEASING THE BUILDING/PROPERTY FROM FLYING J HAS BEEN THERE FOR AS LONG AS I CAN REMEMBER. MR. PETERSON HAS SUPPOSEDLY TOLD HIM HE WOULD HAVE TO VACATE AS THE BUILDING WOULD BE DEMOLISHED SOMETIME IN THE NOT-SO-DISTANT FUTURE.
I WONDER IF MR. PETERSON ASKED THE LEASEE HOW HE MIGHT FEEL ABOUT THE WHOLE DEAL? I UNDERSTAND THAT MR. PETERSON WAS UNDER NO LEGAL OBLIGATION TO DO SO, BUT IT CERTAINLY WOULD HAVE BEEN CONSIDERATE.
MR. PETERSON WAS SAID TO HAVE PURCHASED THE PROPERTY FOR PLACEMENT OF A GONDOLA COMPONENT.
IF THIS IS TRUE, I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHY MR. PETERSON IS MAKING SUCH DRASTIC PREPARATIONS
FOR SOMETHING THAT IS "NOT A DONE DEAL".
DOES ANYONE KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THIS?
Two comments [one for Lynx].
1. Lynx: Interesting if true about Peterson and the property at the intersection of 23rd and Harrison. For several reasons. First, that particular gondola line is supposed to be built by the city, not by Peterson. This may be a speculative investment. If the city gondola is built, and runs from 23 to Harrison, that property will probably have to be acquired by the city to accommodate the turning of the gondola line a that point. Peterson will have to sell it to the city under eminent domain procedures and he may well come out ahead on the deal. Just specualtion, but it's one possibility.
Also interesting in that the planning commission at a recent meeting, decided that the mass-transit route from downtown to WSU should NOT go up 23rd to Harrison, but should go up 23rd to Washington, then south on Washington to 25th, then east on 25th to Harrison. The Mayor is choosing to ignore the planning commision in order to promote his real estate devlopment scam gondola/gondola project with Peterson.[A gondola system with four turning between downtown and WSU will be expensive to build and to maintain.] As he has chosen to ignore the Wasatch Regional Council's long study of Ogden's transit needs [it dismissed the gondola as a serious solution to the city's transit needs], and as he has chosen to ignore resolutions by the Council that NO additional city money be spent on gondola schemes, etc etc. The Mayor's position is at least consistent. It is, more or less, "nobody knows what they are talking about... not the Wasatch Regional Council, not the consultants the city has hired over the years to study these issues, not the planning commission...None of them know what they are talking about. Only I do."
Second: on where posters come from [the Tennessee boy matter.] It does not matter one iota where a poster comes from. Ogden, Centerville, Moab, Tennessee or Timbuktu. ALL that matters is whether the points he or she is making are valid and supported by whatever evidence can be assembled. That's true of pro-gondola posters and anti-gondola posters. I'm more than willing to embrace a good idea coming from out of town, and happy to denounce a bad one coming from an Ogdenite.
The Lynx -
Yes. You are right. Next time you go buy a house, make sure that you emphasize how important that house is to you, and make sure that you are charged a price that take into consideration all future developments that might make that house more valuable. That is the courteous thing to do. This is a principle of negotiation that is often left out of Business School.
It was a smart move on Peterson's part to buy the service station at 23rd and Harrison. If and when he starts construction on his gondola dream, you can bet money there would have been a tear-jerking human interest story in the news about the poor guy whose business is being torn down to make way for the gondola. By striking now, Peterson has made sure to neutralize at least one public relations nightmare, and after the city buys the property it will have ended up costing him nothing, and it may even turn him a nice, little profit.
Wamba:
Peterson has not offered and does not intend to build the gondola that Mayor Godfrey wants to run from downtown to WSU. Peterson wants to build, and own, a gondola that will run from WSU to his Malan's Basin development.
The Lift Ogden Mayor Godfrey Junta, with all their secret meetings, and floated suggestions, plans, hints, none of which are authoratitive, have been very successful in hiding the intent of their plan from many. When I talk with folks around town about all this, I run into many who think that only ONE gondola is being proposed, that Mr. Peterson will build it, and that it will cost the city nothing. That is not, and never has been, the plan of either Mayor Godfrey or Lift Ogden. Which is why in these posts, in letters to the editor and elsewhere I keep referring to the "gondola/gondola" scheme. Two, not one. And the site Peterson supposedly bought [23rd and Harrison] is not part of the gondola system Peterson wants to build. It's part of the one the Mayor wants to build and which the city would own, not Peterson.
Here are some thoughts I'm having right now:
While I still don't think that the gondola is a good idea, I can maybe see the other side. People have mentioned that 23rd St. from Wall to Harrison aint pretty, and Harrison Blvd from 23rd to 36th isn't great either. But someone on the other side might argue that having a gondola along that route would spur improvements on those streets.
I'm still not convinced that this whole gondola/gondola/resort/etc. scheme is going to be Ogden's salvation. And there are so many numbers being thrown around concerning how much money the project would bring to Ogden, how much the City could get from selling the golf course, how much money the gondola would cost, etc. How many legitimate studies have been conducted that varify all of these numbers?
What I am wondering is why no one in the municipal building has produced disclosure forms for everyone involved to sign. The law on this is Utah is, I believe, that if you have any interest in a corporation or business entity the city is doing business with, and if you are an elected official, you must disclose that interest, both in writing and to the others in the body you belong to. Some disclosure forms extend to the interest of family members, too.
So of course, our elected officials must not be disclosing because they have no "interest" in Peterson's project. Does the word "interest" in this sense have a purely financial meaning? Or does it extend to the fact that most in the administration have put a few hours in hyping this project, and are therefore obviously "interested" to see it go?
Whatever the answer, my opinion is that the lack of disclosure forms in this project is improper, to say the least. When we have the mayor's father-in-law promoting the funding for the project, don't you think we deserve a bit of formal assurance that there is no conflict of interest here?
People in this position in government, that of a family member being involved with a project that requires municipal funds and property, should come forward at the beginning with such an assurance because of how it looks, in my opinion.
These forms are a formality, and if there is no conflict of interest, signing them should be no problem. This particular deal, involving as it does relatives and European vacations, in my opinion, requires that formality.
Oh the comfort, the inexpressible comfort of feeling safe with a person, having neither to weigh thoughts nor measure words, but pouring them all out, just as they are, chaff and grain together; certain that a faithful hand willtake and sift them, keep what is worth keeping, and then with the breath of kindness blow the rest away.
Truth, Justice and the American Way
HOLY COW ROBIN, SUPERMAN IS BACK!
Centerville wrote: "People have mentioned that 23rd St. from Wall to Harrison aint pretty, and Harrison Blvd from 23rd to 36th isn't great either. But someone on the other side might argue that having a gondola along that route would spur improvements on those streets.
Since the city owned gondola will not stop between the old mall site and WSU it is hard to see how it will encourage improvements along the route. There will be no place to get on or off between downtown and WSU. That's why few take it seriously as an asnwer to Ogden's transit problems. And that's why, among other reasons, the Wasatch REgional Council recommended a trolly line instead. Everywhere trolly lines have gone in, they HAVE spurred development all along the routes [and for three blocks back from stops] because they stop along the way so people can get on and off. They spur both residential and small business development. All along the route.
Superman,
Enough of your sappy sayings.
The ad hominem attack on Scott Kolts for writing his letter under a Tennessee address is par for the course, I suppose. Wouldn't the fact that an out-of-stater cares enough to follow Ogden politics argue for, rather than against, taking his observations seriously? To go a step further, a bit of discrete Googling reveals that Kolts is a native of North Ogden. I thought his letter shows good sense. No "hillbilly" could compose a document that cogent.
Metafor Mixer Said
"How funny! Queerfieldite retard looks down his dribbling uncultured nose at Tennessee.
Wake up and smell the Sanka, Queerfield Retard! If you're not part of the problem...I'll eat my cowboy hat!"
My oh my, if this isn't a typical response from the blogger serpants.
Dian, as usual, makes some interesting points.
I think there may be conflict(S) of 'interest'. Allen is the prime mover of LiftOgden, and we all know who his relative is.
Since those 'interested' parties haven't brought forth to the public, the documents...isn't it time the citizens came forth and demanded to see them?
The SE is silent isn't it?
BTW, did you catch Ms Ballanytne's commentary today? I can't believe she wrote that without assistance from Godfrey, Allen or one of the well paid minions. I've heard her husband at council meetings, and though he's probably a nice guy, he isn't articulate. Not articulate enough to have helped the Mrs. to write that baloney today.
]The comrades come from all corners.
Curmudgeon wrote:Since the city owned gondola will not stop between the old mall site and WSU it is hard to see how it will encourage improvements along the route. There will be no place to get on or off between downtown and WSU. That's why few take it seriously as an asnwer to Ogden's transit problems. And that's why, among other reasons, the Wasatch REgional Council recommended a trolly line instead. Everywhere trolly lines have gone in, they HAVE spurred development all along the routes [and for three blocks back from stops] because they stop along the way so people can get on and off. They spur both residential and small business development. All along the route.
First of all, the gondola will allow boarding at 23rd and Harrison as it makes it's 90 degree turn to the south. It will also have a boarding platform where it turns again East to the mountains. These corner stations are no more engineered than the whole system but the design of these systems make boarding possible at these angle stations because the cars are detached from one cable loop and reattached to another as it shuttles along a connection trackat reduced speed with the doors open.
As for development along trolly routes you are sadly misinformed on the timeline and prezoning necessary to these TransitOrientedDevelopment zones. The redevelopment occurs as a result of higher density zoning along these routes. It is a PREREQUISITE to fed funding that these routes be ddedicated and REZONED 2 to 3 blocks deep. If you can name one East-West corridor where this could be done without immeasurable impact and not raising a HUGE stink among those with residences in the redev zone than please speak up.
Fact is that is why the streetcar enthusiasts are so quiet these days because of the reality of TOD. It's not that TOD is a bad thing, it's that there simply is not a corridor suitable nor is there the demand for this kind of density along a 2+ mile E-W corridor in Ogden. Sadly the original city planners left us without a complete E-W commercial corridor and it is quite late in the game to destroy what is mostly residential in any of several corridors.
wow...noyes knows, doesn't he? Harmer, Patterson, Godfrey or Allen...who else is privy to so much info?
The Streetcar Expert who spoke at WSU and at Lindquist Alumni House looked over Ogden and his recommendations were just what Curmudgeon stated.
If the mayor thought his legacy could be found on a streetcar, we'd have them by now. This isn't abut Ogden's future, this is all abut an EGO the size of Texas!
IN Re: Mutch Noyes...
Ah, so the goalposts have moved yet again, have they? How many times are you guys going to change your story?
The original gondola proposal discussed at Lift Ogden meetings many many months ago, and touted by the Mayor for a while did involve a "station" at 23rd and Harrison and yet another further along before WSU. But, when construction costs involving the many-station gondola were totaled up, they reached levels too high to be paid for by private funding [which was the promise being made at the time, now apparently abandoned] and so the plan changed. The one being pushed by the Mayor at the moment for the city end of the gondola/gondola scheme involves, last I heard from a leaker, only one stop, at the as yet-unbuilt hotel on the old mall site. Nothing more until WSU. Or so the Mayor and the rest of the Junta told the Standard Examiner. But that was almost three weeks ago. Who knows what the plan is today? Certainly not the public.
All this confusion is just another illustration of the tactics of Lift Ogden and the Godfrey/Geiger/Peterson/Allen Junta. Change the story every time a part of it becomes embarassing or unpopular, or they think whoever they are pitching wants to hear something different. Rumors, leaks from non-secret meetings that only invitees can attend and about which the Mayor [an elected official helping pitch the rubes at the meetings] is not allowed to talk. Plans revealed in part to the Standard Examiner with hints that "more detail" is coming. This version, that version, another version: the story keeps changing, the goal posts keep being moved every time opposition develops to any particular aspect of the current leaked version.
Still no financials. Still no on-the-record revealing of Peterson's current version of his alleged plans. Still nothing official from the mayor to the council. Or the public. But lots of smoke and mirrors.
And recall we have Mr. Bob Geiger on record to theStandard Examiner following a Lift Ogden meeting some months ago [when the "it won't cost the city a dime to build it" fiction was stilly being circulated as the plan] that Lift Ogden was deliberately keeping elements of the plans secret out of fear that if they became known, they would generate too much opposition among the public. That's not my interpretation. That's what Mr. Geiger stated, on the record, to the paper.
Mutch, maybe you'b better attend one of the mayor's more recent non-secret meetings that he can't tell the voters about. What he's touting lately is the one-stop gondola downtown to WSU. But hey, that was last week. Who knows what he's touting, privately, now. Certainly the public doesn't.
Well Curmudgemann, it really looks as though you prefer idle rampant speculation to facts. The FACT is that none of this is ironclad and none of the stations or their locations are even on a drawing board YET.
As a supporter I am committed to these stops or the thing is indeed less than utilitarian.
Other fact you did not address is your assumptions about streetcars. You see I have spoken with Jeffrey Boothe and studied TOD(TransitOrientedDevelopment) enough to know that it will not be deployed in Ogden and that if it were I can guarantee it to be ten times the hot-button issue that this gondola has become. TOD and streetcars will invoke more eminent domain slaughter and invite fed interference for the next 2 decades. By then we may have a streetcar line. By then the Gondola will be shuttling it's millionth rider along in silence without a single street being ground up for gradient reengineering and only a handful of homes given over to building it's infrastructure.
Well Curmudgemann, it really looks as though you prefer idle rampant speculation to facts. The FACT is that none of this is ironclad and none of the stations or their locations are even on a drawing board YET.
As a supporter I am committed to these stops or the thing is indeed less than utilitarian.
Other fact you did not address is your assumptions about streetcars. You see I have spoken with Jeffrey Boothe and studied TOD(TransitOrientedDevelopment) enough to know that it will not be deployed in Ogden and that if it were I can guarantee it to be ten times the hot-button issue that this gondola has become. TOD and streetcars will invoke more eminent domain slaughter and invite fed interference for the next 2 decades. By then we may have a streetcar line. By then the Gondola will be shuttling it's millionth rider along in silence without a single street being ground up for gradient reengineering and only a handful of homes given over to building it's infrastructure.
Lovely Jen, I have as many questions as any of you. Mine are in the vein of making the most utility of this system and seeing that the city gets the best deal out of Chris Peterson. Unfortunately the city is on the submissive end of this deal. Had they explored it, say before MAy '05 when CP purchased Malan's Acreage, they may have had the foresight to acquire it themselves and... MAKE IT A CITY PARK AND MUNICIPAL SKI AND MOUNTAIN RESORT.
Instead the city is on the wagging end of this deal. Now it is up to us to ASK questions, become informed about all form s of transit so that simply spouting about some so called alternative like streetcars is continually brought to the discussion. You, Jen did not address my concerns and FACTS regarding TOD and the streetcar issue. Instead you obsess about my minimal jab at Curm. OK you win I will try to not jab, in good sport, thus robbing you of the opportunity to dissect my statement and reduce it to calling Curm. misinformed. In fact, I totally agree that Curm is quite informed and usually eloquent. I figured a few facts would be of interest to him.
Some time ago, I wrote an opinion piece on the Portland aerial tram, terming it "a blueprint we can't follow." I still stand behind that last---look what's happening in Portland now:
006-04-04 Oregon Health and Science University handed the City of Portland notice of default Tuesday, which the school says preserves its ability to legally force commissioners to complete construction of the aerial tram.
OHSU, Portland Tram Troubles Continue
Friday, April 07, 2006
The aerial tram may fly after all.
Portland city Commissioner Dan Saltzman flipped his position Thursday and agreed to more city money for the budget-busting tram.
He joins Mayor Tom Potter and Commissioner Sam Adams for a council majority to finish the link between Oregon Health & Science University's main Marquam Hill campus and its South Waterfront expansion.
Saltzman vote gives OHSU tram plan a lift: City money - The Portland commissioner's about-face will allow the city more than double its contribution
What is more, at $57 million, city officials have apparently nailed down a final price for the tram -- or the closest that the city can come to a final price. That's been another thing that Saltzman has said all along, that he could not support any increase in the city's contribution to the tram until the city had something resembling finality on the tram's numbers.
Under a tentative plan forged by Mayor Tom Potter, the city's share of the tram would go from $3.5 million, in urban renewal funds, to $8.5 million...
...The tram is part of the sales pitch for their condominiums, which have been snapped up in the towers they are building along the South Waterfront. But the city will profit, too. The tram has leveraged a $2 billion redevelopment in the area, a new campus extension for OHSU and thousands of new residents and new jobs.
The city's contribution to the tram will come from rising tax revenues -- revenues that wouldn't even exist, except for the tram and the redevelopment it has triggered. The city's contribution won't come from the city's general fund, which provides police and fire services.
Saltzman supplies steel to finish the tram
One must bear in mind that the initial cost estimate for the buildout of the Portland Aerial Tram was $15 million. And wonder of wonders, a RDA area and housing has become involved, too.
What we're seeing here is the same scheme that's put Portland in the situation it is now, and I don't mind saying that I don't think we need this sort of thing at all. Insofar as the statement, "the city will profit too," it might, but when, and would this all have been worth it?
In fact, the news on our own downtown development, which we all agree really should go somewhere, has been sort of sparse lately---isn't it almost time for Larry Miller to sign? Ozboy had the contract provisions earlier, and I think the drop dead date for that was in May.
I think we would be better served by updates on what is happening with our downtown area, which after all would serve all of us instead of a select few.
And after looking at what's happened in Portland, I don't think we should touch this gondola project with a forty foot pole.
Indeed the Portland Tram project is a mess. That mess was caused largely by OHSU erecting a building right where the main anchorage was to have been sunk. They were so hasty to expand and no board member or councilperson had the guts to place responsibility where it belonged. Everyone needed everyone to keep mum so as not to kill a project that was underway.
Indeed, Ogden must avoid this potential by citizens insisting this be engineered to the hilt for full utility from day one and assuring ALL cost is borne by the golf course deal.
HOW can" all cost be borne by the golf course deal?"
This ill-advised gondola will cost many millions! Godfrey stood at that LiftOgden meeting and said the city would get 5 M for the golf course, and half of that goes to the school district! Where were you?
In the beginning, Peteraon was building up the canyon on his own money. Do you recall your 'lustrous mayor saying this wouldn't cost the taxpayers a dime?
We're bonded for YEARS on the rec center/bowling alley which doesn't show signs of moving along.
Where and When will the hotel with the 2 story pass through for the gondola be built?
Who will bear the costs of the 2000 dorm rooms downtown for all those foreign students who will flock here BECAUSE of the gondola? The ones without kitchens so the struggling students can eat their meals together in a cafeteria, while BONDING FOR LIFE!
WHEN WILL WE HAVE SANITY IN THIS ADMINISTRATION?
One would think that the mayor's hired guns would be ashamed of themselves and ATTEMPT to counsel the little king...or resign and go somewhere where honesty can reign.
I'm sickened everytime I hear or read something new the mayor is stirring in his pot of dreams.
All we have is guest commentaries, secret meetings, trip to Europe, and the 'mouthpieces' running through the streets crying , "all is well, all is well" in the Godfrey kingdom!
Did you read the article on the Gov in the Deseret News? He travels COACH out of his pocket, and paid for his own hotel room while visiting the troops in Iraq!!
I wonder if he will come be our mayor?
Either one has character or one doesn't. I think THIS one does not. Godfrey thinks only of what HE wants and not the needs or wishes of the people.
Only an imbecile believes the 'golf course sale will bear all costs of the gondola'.
Mutch:
OK, Mutch. I did assume you were just floating Version 6.7 of the Lift Ogden line. Sometimes it's hard to tell the players without a scorecard.
As for you general point, that the Malan's Basin Resort development ought to be owned by the city [did I get that right?] or at least put up for development as a public owned property by resort developers, I have doubts. And [of course] questions.
The main problem I see there, Mutch, is that so far, I have seen no feasibility study saying a Malan's Basin ski development, with at base at 6K feet on the west slope of the Wasatch is feasible. I do know people in management at some of the Cottonwood resorts, particularly Snowbird, simply laugh at the possibility of a west slope ski development at that altitude. But hey, they have a dog in the fight too. [Competition.] I suspect that the whole Malan's Basin ski end of the development is not feasible [insufficient snow for insufficient duration on average over time]. I find it more than passing strange that if the Lift Ogden, Peterson boomers have commissioned such a study by one of the firms that do such things and it came out as they hoped, that they have not made it public. [What would they gain by not doing so? Beats me.] I do know that no commercial bank would put money on the table to fund such a development without seeing such a feasibility study first.
I have another suspicion: that Peterson's real goal is to acquire one of the last big parcels of undeveloped east bench land in Ogden [Mt. Ogden Park and the WSU tract] so he can develop it as a high end gated subdivision for huge profits. AT which point he will suddenly discover that Malan's Basin is not developable as a ski venue for lack of snow at that elevation, or that too much of the land up there is in slope over 30 degrees and so not developable under existing ordinances, or that he can't get stream bank watershed variances, or... well, you get the idea. And the Malan's Basin end of it will be abandoned. The prize is the publiclly owned benchland, and he may be playing Godfrey to get it.
Proof? Nope. Just a nagging suspicion and pure specualtion on my part, nothing more. But still....
What do you think?
I'm pretty sure there is enough snow up there. Although this season is above average, most years I've observed Malan's Bowl and Basin is well covered through mid April. The foothill may look dry from down here in town, have a look from Snowbasin some day. Just a quick hike around from the Mt Allen Tram. There is plenty of snow and skiable terrain.
Mr. Curm.
Methinks your 'nagging suspicions' are right on target!
Peterson may get everything HE wants and Ogdenites will be left holding a bag of visions.
And, the loss of the golf course, park and trail access. Let's hope the Council does not give an inch on amending the General Plan.
mutch,
Peterson said he planned to 'make snow' when necessary. Didn't you hear him too?
But Curmudgeon, if you're right----this means there will be no gondola!! It wouldn't have anywhere to go. There would be no reason for it at all.
Interesting thought, and I am sure there would be more money in the real estate development than in the resort, especially at first.
Dian:
Alas, would that that were so.
This would not necessarily affect the city portion of the gondola [downtown to WSU]for those who look at it as a viable urbran mass transit solution. [Absent the up-mountain gondola connection a very small group.]
Nor woult it affect the up-mountain gondola if it were, somehow, to go over the crest to connect with Snow Basin [presuming that to be feasible technically, and presuming Snow Basin reverses its current postion of being not iterested in a gondola connection to Ogden]. Depending on which Lift Ogden boomer you talk to on which day, the Snow Basin connection is either (a) a done deal (b) likely to happen (c) a "real possibility" or (d) will happen "eventually" [presumably when the present ownership of Snow Basin....ah, how to put this delicately.... "moves on." Close enough.]
And notice, no gondola building of any sort is to go on until Mt. Ogden Park and WSU land has been transferred to Mr. Peterson. And no up-mountain gondola building until construction and sale of Mr. Peterson's gated community upscale homes has begin. For, we are now being told, it is those sales that will provide Mr. Peterson with the fund he needs to proceed with his end of the gondola. Real estate transfer and gated-homes development first, gondola second. How convenient.
But you are right: if my speculation is correct, and the Malan's Basin development is largely a chip designed to make selling Mt. Ogden Park to Mr. Peterson more attractive to the Ogden City government, the WSU-Malan's Basin leg would no longer be economically feasible I would think. Presuming it is economically feasible even with a Malan's Basin development, which is by no means certain. Not that that alone would necessarily stop the Lift Ogden boomers.
My understanding is that all that is necessary for the lift to connect to the saddle seperating Malan's from Snowbasin is Forest Service approval. No doubt Snowbasin's opinion would be solicited for such a decision but they do not own the land. Their current stance is largely for political correctness in the midst of planning. It is best they stand neutral. The statements they have made reflect neutrality rather than opposition. Combining tickets with neighboring resorts is all the rage in the ski resort industry. It brings a European ski touring experience which is not possible in most of America's widely spaced resorts.
The value of the golf course is far more than some have projected. Even the city may be out of touch in the negotiable value of this platinum, plum property. Why did it take Chris Peterson to suggest that this property has substantial value and could be sold to build another city amenity. Could the city not think of these things on their own and then approach a hungry luxury home/golf course development industry and see just how hungry they are?
As I have stated earlier, had the city had the foresight just one year ago they would have had the opportunity to purchase the Malan's land and package the whole thing at their leisure and advantage to a MAJOR ski/real estate developers such as East/West partners, Intrawest, Vail Resorts, Telluride Ski & Golf, American Ski, etc. These guys will give you the real picture. They have this stuff down to a science. Chris Peterson may have managed Snowbasin for years and he may have access to huge capital but where is the track record of profitable resort development. Sure he has the resources to make this happen. He may not be the best mtch for the cities needs. That is what much of this now boils down to.
Architecture, aesthetics, engineering. I am quite anxious to view CP's real plans. All that has been presented is vague site maps, poor aerials, and amazingly not a single artist's conception. When one of the aforementioned ski real estate corporations has proposals they bring on the show. a 500 million dollar resort deserves at least a few thousand in conceptuals. That is what has me a little dismayed. HOPEFULLY CP has the real deal on the 19th because, as would be expected, the natives are restless.
Muthc:
In re: your post on Snow Basin's position on the over-mountain gondola connection. Maybe. But its all speculation, based on silences, and reading Snow Basin's spoken statements [the gondola connection to Ogden is not in our plans] creatively to find other, hidden meanings. Absent any specifics from Snow Basin to the contrary, it seems wisest to give at least the most credence to the management's public statements, which [to date] indicate no interest in the gondola connection.
All this is just another example, I think, of what you have pointed out about other matters: hints, speculations, rumors, guesses are pretty much all we have to go on by way of discussing this since those involved have not chosen to provide much by way of hard information about their plans. That's one thing in so far as it involves Mr. Peterson, who has not been elected to a position of public trust. It's quite another when it involves the Mayor of Ogden.
I know dip-squat about commercial real estate values, and so I am intrigued by your suggestion that the Good People of Ogden and their Mayor are in the process of being milked and mulched and taken to the clearners over the Mt. Ogden property by Mr. Peterson, that they have been so bamboozled that they are, the Mayor in particular, assisting him in the process of picking the city's pockets [figuratively speaking.] Interesting.
Working stiff, point of clarification, the Mayor said; " the upscale housing development would result in at least $5 million in new taxes, half which would go to the schools, the other half would be split between the city and the county. Schools do not receive funding from the sale of city property.
"anonymous said...
...the upscale housing development would result in at least $5 million in new taxes, half which would go to the schools, the other half would be split between the city and the county. Schools do not receive funding from the sale of city property."
That's an important distinction, anonymous. You might have also added that this projected $5 million tax increment would occur annually... if all were to go according to plan.
The fair market value of the subject 140 acres is probably upwards of $30 million, BTW.
There's much on the plate with this proposal for the taxpayers of Ogden City to consider.
Thus it's vitally important that the public discussion begin immediately, and that this not be done perfunctorily.
Chris Peterson needs to come out of his private cocoon, wethinks, and allow himself to be thoroughly vetted (as "Mutch Noyes" suggests.)
The taxpayers of Ogden will have to ask him the same kinds of questions that got Councilman Glasmann lambasted in the local press when he asked Ernest Health "who" they were, and "what" resources thay have.
And all options need to be discussed in detail, and at length, (including the option of closing the cash revenue negative golf course and returning it to its natural state.)
Perhaps this decision is even too important for the city council to decide with a simple rezoning request. Perhaps a public referendum would be best in this instance, as one reader suggested in another thread. Perhaps the taxpayers of Ogden should be the ones to decide whether trading our most pristine remaining bench property for a downtown gondola system is a reasonable swap.
(Just a passing thought after a long, relaxing weekend.)
The most important thing to remember in all this is not if Chris Peterson buys the golf course, builds his resort and makes a gazillion dollars. Nor is it if Mayor Matthew Godfrey builds his leg of the gondola and gets the so-called legacy as many think he is chasing. What matters most is what is in the best interest of the citizens of Ogden. Do we need economic growth? Yes. Do we need to desperately build our tax base? Yes! Do we need to enhance the quality of life for Ogdenites? Yes. Do we need to attract tens of thousands of tourists to Ogden let them spend their money then send them home? Yes!
Now is the time to come up with a contingency plan to demand a much expanded and improved trail system open to all and a much improved golf course regardless of who owns it that is affordable and open to all. If a gondola is built, it should be just as affordable as current methods of mass transit (UTA) for the taxpayers of Ogden. Let’s hope ridership is better than the current usage of UTA, which is dismal.
When the golf course is sold there should be several million from the proceeds set aside to make improvements that impact the community as a whole. One area to consider is our public parks and river parkway trail which are open for everyone regardless of your ethnic origin, race, income level or which side of town you live on. There have been millions of dollars requested through the City Capital Improvement Program to improve the 40 plus parks the city for many years only to be denied. Why not? There is not enough money to go around. If we are not very careful Ogden will have a high paid City workforce but with no money to make any improvements to the infrastructure of Ogden. Will it become just another entitlement program?
Five million plus in new property taxes every year is a lot of money. Until something else comes down the pike, it is the only thing on the table. The constant call of throwing the mayor out and electing Ed, Bill Glassman, Dorene Jeske, Dorothy Littrell, Sharon Beech and other blogers because we don’t like the direction the Mayor is taking the City. Any elected official or private citizen can and should be a champion to alternatives. All of those we elected during the last election have yet to come up with one viable alternative, not one. When the form of government was changed to a strong mayor it was to provide checks and balances in city government. All we have seen are watchdogs waiting to pounce if they don’t like what the administration is doing. I would challenge all members of the city council to come up with just one great idea to improve the tax base, improve the infrastructure and enhance the quality of life. In my opinion they are so caught up in the typical beauracratic process of deciding how to spend money that they have forgotten they have also the responsibility to figure out how to make it.
"Mutch Noyes said...
I'm pretty sure there is enough snow up there. Although this season is above average, most years I've observed Malan's Bowl and Basin is well covered through mid April. The foothill may look dry from down here in town, have a look from Snowbasin some day. Just a quick hike around from the Mt Allen Tram. There is plenty of snow and skiable terrain."
With all due respect, Mutch, I believe you're missing the whole problem with west-facing slopes -- which is direct sunshine in the afternoon along with elevated ambient air temperature.
The snow surface on such slopes melts and freezes every day (because of the sun's radient energy, even when the ambient temperature stays below freezing.)
In a few hours or days you have ice, which isn't what local skiers would call "skiable." It may look a lot like "snow," but it ain't the kinda stuff real skiers will fork out lift pass money to ski upon.
It can actually be dangerous on steep slopes, too. And then there's the "avalanche problem," when fresh hew snow falls on an icy base.
Moreover, there's the "slush" problem during warm spells.
Believe me, there's a reason that guy upthread said that some Snowbird operaters are chuckling about the Malan's Basin World Class Resort plan.
Chris Peterson can build a west-facing low-altitude ski resort in Malan's Basin. It's his money; he can spend it as he likes.
Don't kid yourself though, kid -- it won't be world class. It will be barely skiable for most of the winter season.
Amidst all of the discussion about what would best meet Ogden's transit needs, I thought of something. Every time I've taken bus 603 from WSU down to 25th Street, it's always been pretty empty. Maybe I just haven't been riding it at the right times of day.
So I guess what I'm wondering is - are there enough people that use mass transit to get from WSU to downtown that it justifies building a whole new transit system, whether it be a gondola, streetcar, etc.? Is bus 603 not good enough for some reason?
"Centerville Citizen said...
So I guess what I'm wondering is - are there enough people that use mass transit to get from WSU to downtown that it justifies building a whole new transit system, whether it be a gondola, streetcar, etc.? Is bus 603 not good enough for some reason?"
Good question, CC. Last time we checked, route 603 was logging 1664 urban riders daily. Of course there's no way to tell how many of them rode the bus from downtown to WSU, is there?
So many questions...
So few answers...
Thanks for the info, Rudi. I'm assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that the 1,664 riders you mention would include the same person twice, if that person rode it in the morning and in the evening, as opposed to 1,664 being the exact number of people riding it everyday, regardless of how many times they use it. After all, how could you keep track of how many times a specific individual gets on the 603 every day?
I went to UTA's website, and 56 times each weekday bus 603 goes from downtown to WSU, and there are 59 runs of bus 603 from WSU to downtown every weekday. So assuming that that 1,664 includes ALL runs in a given weekday, that's a total of 115 runs, and so that's an average of 14.47 people on each run of bus 603 on a weekday.
And like you hinted at, how many of those 14.47 per run are going specifically from downtown to WSU, as opposed to going from downtown to McKay-Dee, or to the library on 25th Street, etc.?
And I'm not an urban planning expert or anything, but it seems like there's a sort of "what comes first, the chicken or the egg?" problem. Is it a thriving, revitalized downtown with venues that attract people that creates the need for an improved mass transit system, or does an improved mass transit system spur the revitalization and create a thriving downtown? Or is it some of both?
Several points:
Ogden needs to plan not for current ridership, but for ridership in the future. That is what UTC and the Wasatch Regional Council were looking at. They were looking for ways to both increase capacity to serve the needs of existing and new residents [not all of whom want to travel only from WSU to downtown and back], but for a transit mode that would also increase economic and residential investment all along its route. Which, again, is why they recommended the trolley line as the best option for Ogden's current citizens, and its future ones. [As for the 603 bus, I ride it half a dozen times a week, but NEVER all the way from WSU to downtown or back. ]
One of the Anon's posting is repeating the Lift Ogden line that the Gondola/gondola sell off Mt. Ogden Park Malan's Basin scheme is the ONLY option. Those opposed wish to do nothing. That is nonsense.
First of all, let me note that Ogden IS attracting business now. It attracted half a dozen small scale ski-related operations. With no gondola and with Mt. Ogden Park still city owned. Just last week, a medical mfg firm announced it was expanding its plant in Ogden, bringing 200 news jobs with the expansion. As the supporters of the mall redevopment have gleefully pointed out, the condo development on site has already been sold out.
The simple fact is, the arrival of the commuter rail IS going to mean growth, and substanial growth, for Ogden. And Ogden has substantial advantages to offer relocating companies already: very low rents, an available labor force, university in the city, plus access to the mountains from within the city via the trail system, and short drives to three ske resorts, one of them an olympic venue. All of it here, now. The notion that ONLY selling off Mt. Ogden Park and a monster development up mountain can "save" Ogden is nonsense.
As for other plans, let me point out yet again that the City paid for a couple of studies, fairly recently, about how downtown and Ogden could be improved to foster growth. The professionals for whose opinions we paid said, twice, that Washington and Wall needed to be made much more pedestrian [and business] friendly venues, that doing that [and they had specific, relatively low cost suggestions about how to do it] would do more than anything else to revive the downtown area.
Naturally, our estemmed Mayor ignored the studies the city had paid for. For a time, his line was that the high adventure bowling center was absolutely essential to the growth of Ogden, it would have the huddled masses of Salt Lake City teeming to our shores [so to speak] in untold numbers. Now that that has been passed and is underway, the new Godfrey line seems to be that it was all for nought, and despite the High Adventure Bowling venue, Ogden will sink into the slough of despond if it doesn't sell of Mt. Ogden Park to build his gondola/gondola scheme.
This notion that ONLY the Lift Ogden scheme can save Ogden and that no one else has any ideas at all, and opposing Lift Ogdem means favoring doing nothing is poppycock. No matter how many times the Lift Ogden boomers whine otherwise, it will still be poppycock.
My goodness, Anon, I know we're looking for a mayoral candidate, but I wasn't aware that I've been nominated!!
Guess that's what happens when one goes out of town for a day.
I'm acquainted with Littrell and Jeske, but I can't recall who ED is. Ed Allen? Surely you jest!
MR. Ed? Hmmm...politics straight from the horse's....uh...mouth might be novel for a change.
I'm at a disadvantage tho....I don't have any campaign signs, unless you count the two dozen that were dumped on my lawn the night before the Nov. election...that belonged to Jeske.
Except for the elusive (in my memory) Ed, I'd say you put me in good company....did you include Curmudgeon and Bucky Boy also?
Thanks for a good laugh.
Yo Rudy,
First of all you can knock off the "kid" stuff. I tossed no insult your way. Besides at 50, I may be flattered when a 20-something chick underestimates my age. You, though, can leave it at the truth. I do happen to ride a snowboard(1000 days in the last 15 years) if that establishes my youth so be it.
I am perfectly aware of the snow science. My own tastes prefer powder days only. No problem wih snow conditions on those days. It's usually cloudy with no pesky interference from the sun. Strawberry lift along with many other aspects at Snowbasin share the slush problem after the equinox. These resorts do most of their biz before spring break so I do not think the ice/slush issue is as drastic as you think.
I learned to ride in Arizona and have slid down many south facing slopes in April. The pitch in Malan's is enough to counter too much of the sticky. Mammoth Mountain spreads a little salt to keep everyone sliding until June ! on a treeless mountain with all exposures. As for ice, any resort has this problem after the fresh has been beat up, that's why I ride ONLY powder days. I have been to Snowbird when the temperature has not been above freezing for a month and the fresh and the groom still turns to ice quickly from tracking. The science is you wait for more fresh...
Working Stiff.
"Godfrey stood at that LiftOgden meeting and said the city would get 5 M for the golf course, and half of that goes to the school district!"
Godfrey said no such thing. He said they didn't know how much they would sell the golf course for yet. They would have to have appraisals done. He said the proposed homes built there would generate $5M/year in property taxes, half of which would go directly to fund the schools. You need to listen!
Dear Anon:
What Godfrey says about the plan seems to change depending on whether he is at an open meeting, or one of the closed meethings that he inists aren't private but that he can't tell us about. Recall, Godfry promised for a while that the city gondola would be build entirely with private money. Now he's begging UTA and DOT for subsidies, plus saying the city has to sell Mt. Ogden Park to raise the money to build the gondola that was going to be built entirely with private fund not too long ago.
The Mayor seems to be running a modern version of the shell game. Which shell is the pea under? Ever seen anyone win at that carny game? Neither have. Certainly the taxpayers of Ogden won't.
Point of clarification -
Godfrey has not consistently said that it will be financed completely by private funding. He's said that it will be financed without impacting your current city tax rates.
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