By Curmudgeon
Snow Basin writes to Godfrey, again, insisting he stop giving the false impression that the Ogden gondola will connect with Snow Basin. Misleading information contained in the city-paid for bulletin accompanying city water bills prompted the new complaints by Snow Basin.
The SL Trib has the story.
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Editor's Homework Assignment: There has been an increasing volume of blatantly false information shamelessly disseminated by the Ogden Gondola Cult of late. We thought at this juncture that it would be a fine idea to set up a separate thread to document in one place the variey of
Come on gentle readers! Let us focus on the Gondola Lemming Truth and Veracity Deficit! We invite you all to fall all over yourselves to provide us specific examples of instances where your own "B.S. Detectors" have gone "completely off the chart!"
If we receive a substantial response, we will definitely compile it. Consider the possibilities.
In the spirit of this project, your humble Blogmeister also offers this on-topic observation, which was received via email yesterday, from another of our Gentle Readers:
The floor is now open for your input on this topic. It's time, we think, to tap the wisdom of the crowd, and call the BS'ers out on the carpet.Rudi:
Thought you might be interested. The new Lift Ogden brochure, distributed around town this AM, claims folks will be able to board the Frontrunner train at SLC International Airport and ride it straight to Ogden. I checked UTA. Frontrunner is NOT going to the SLC airport.-A Gentle Reader
32 comments:
Just what many of us have been saying all along---if the gondola were feasible, Holding would have done it years ago.
Peterson rebuts this by saying that the technology of tram building has changed in the intervening years, but the problems Snow Basin sees involve avalanches and high winds. New technology can't do anything about those.
The Little Lord has never let reality and the truth get in his way before. Remember the Mall saga? In fact in all of his projects there are participants and victims who were lied to and manipulated and ultimately discarded by the mean little bugger.
dupped!dupped!dupped!dupped!dupped!
boy is the litte man really taking a lot of people for a ride and I can't belive that they don't look at this as every one else is.
the gondola thing is just another ponzi scheme.
THE Increasing Lie: The Lift Ogden Liars keep on repeating the lie that Chris peterson will INVEST $500,000,000 in Ogden.
The Truth: Chris Peterson has always said that the $500,000,000 figure represents what the "planned" improvements will be worth, assuming he succeeds in his "leveraged buyout."
He's NEVER said he'd invest $.5 billion dollars.
The "cute thing" is that our little retard mayor thinks he's cute. He keeps repeating the $500 million investment meme.
We heard it today from a back-sliding prominent Godfreyite, that loyal Godfreyite cheerleaders are "bailing out" on Godfrey en masse. Even Godfreyite Lemmings have their own personal moral scuples, it would seem.
Even the cheerleaders realize now that any political connection with GODFREY IS POLITICAL POISON!
Get out the tar & feathers, gentle readers.
Godfrey doesn't have a friend in the world... except turncoat Neocon Boy... Bill Glassman....
Hiss.......
oh, surely his father-in-law, Dr. Ed Allen is still singing Matt's praises.
I was told by a lifelong Ogdenite tonight that Ogden actually HAD a gondola! MANY years ago...if true, and if it was so exciting, 'sexy and cool', what happened to it?
Anyone...older than dirt, that is?
Greetings, wcforum! Though the topics discussed here of late interest me greatly, I've refrained from contributing until now. This thread, however, provides a good opportunity to discuss facts and, I hope, refrain from personal attacks and name-calling.
Tall tales from Peterson, Godfrey, and other gondola supporters? Yes, there are plenty. Off the top of my head...
The gondola will connect to Snowbasin--as implied not just by the FAQ but also by the images used in the presentations, Snowbasin webcam on the Lift Ogden site, etc.
The connection will be made on a "gentle ridge" (Peterson's words). Yeah, with the only way down into Snowbasin on double-black-diamond runs, and no way back to Malan's Basin without a 500-vertical-foot climb.
The skiing is great in Malan's Basin--even better than Brighton!
You'll be able to ski from Malan's Basin down to the golf course 60-80 days a year (over the waterfall?).
There's room for a resort megaplex with 350 condos in Malan's Basin.
No access road will be needed for this megaplex--they'll use the gondola for all construction needs,
emergency access, evacuation, and even waste removal!
The resort will be built according to the "best green resort design practices." And, as the mayor says, Chris Peterson has been a "great steward" over his land.
Moving half the golf course up onto much steeper mountain slopes will make it "more playable".
The golf course is losing $320 million a year. (The actual amount is hard to determine but even the city's numbers show average losses of less than this.)
After enlarging the golf course and taking geological and other constraints into account, they'll still have room for 400 new luxury houses in the foothills.
We finally have a chance to fix the east bench water pressure problem, because for the first time we have a cooperative land owner who will let us relocate the water tanks onto his property (never mind that the city's property already extends 300 vertical feet above the tanks).
What Peterson needs to acquire is [only] "the golf course and WSU property" (no mention of the rest of the city-owned property where so many of the trails are).
"Trails will remain open to the public." (Even the ones that are being eliminated?)
Building on the foothills will increase the city's open space (because they'll move the city limits outward).
The urban gondola will be an "express" link (at 13 mph) between downtown and WSU, making the trip in only 16 minutes. (I compute over 17 minutes from the mall site to Harrison in front of WSU; 20 from the intermodal hub; and over 24 to get all the way to the foothill transfer point.)
"Only US city where you can fly into an international airport... and take transit right to the top of the ski resort." (Aside from the still-missing link between the airport and downtown SLC, are we saying that buses aren't transit?)
The gondola wouldn't take up a lane of traffic. (The stations and bends on Harrison would probably take two lanes.)
A streetcar system would take 15-20 years to approve and construct. (UTA says it could be as little as 7, though 10 is more likely.)
"The people of Ogden would have to come up with $50 million for a streetcar." (The local match would come almost entirely from UTA, not from the city.)
The gondola's "total travel time is faster" than a streetcar. (Highly dependent on assumptions about where your trip starts and ends in relation to the stations, whether there's a line to board, how far you're going, whether you're transferring to/from commuter rail, etc. Detailed modeling by Wasatch Front Regional Council showed that more people would choose to ride a streetcar; the administration's version of the gondola would fare significantly worse than the version WFRC assumed.)
"Relieves parking pressure" at WSU--even though it's obvious that Peterson is counting on use of WSU parking for golfers and sightseers so they can skip the 24-minute urban gondola ride.
1000 new out-of-state students at WSU, paying out-of-state tuition, so they can ride the gondola and ski in Malan's Basin between classes.
$5 million (or is it $10 million?) in new property tax revenue. (I asked the mayor to substantiate this claim over a month ago and he hasn't replied.)
1200 new jobs. (Similarly, neither the mayor nor Lift Ogden seems willing or able to back up this figure.)
No risk to taxpayers!
And perhaps the tallest tale of all: Ogden is in a "downward spiral!" It's an emergency! It's either this or do nothing!
Nice to see you, Dan!!
What I perceive to be misinformation...
The statement that the construction of 400 homes in and around the golf course will create more open space.
(This is nonsense. Every home built will of course diminish the amount of open space it sits on. Multiply the homes and their footprints by 400 and you will get the amount of open space no longer open, but imstead covered by a home.)
This statement from the brochure:
"Ogden will be the only U.S. city with direct mass transit from an international airport to the slopes,..."
("Direct mass transit" usually means no stops or transfers. That definitely is not happening with this proposal.)
In speaking of the "roadless resort," also from the new brochure...
"The use of a construction tram may make this approach feasible."
(Wait a minute!! Isn't this a gondola, not a tram???? Hasn't this crucial distinction been made since the beginning? So does this involve yet another form of aerial transportation, and is this now a gondola/gondola/resort/housing development/construction tram project?)
"This project makes Ogden the only city in the U.S. connected to a ski resort..."
(What about Park City?)
"Trails will remain open to the public...."
(The word "remain" implies that they will not be interfered with in any way, but will "remain." This is not the case. Some trails will be eradicated, rebuilt, and then perhaps made open to the public.)
And finally, the repeated statements of the mayor that Snowbasin is geographically close to the proposed lift terminus, therefore implying easy access to Snow Basin, make me think of a person who purchases a property and tells all his friends to come swim because the next door neighbor has a pool.
Dan and Dian
As usual, a fine piece of analysis from Dian, and some great info from new comer (to WCF) Dan.
The truth alone will not stop this dark force that eminates from the ninth floor and would bring Ogden to financial ruin if not stopped. The truth about all this nonsense propogated by these arrogant self important politicians, and their assorted mindless groupies, has to be told, and re-told, and re-told again and again until this very dangerous scheme has a stake driven through it's heart.
Every lie told by the Gondolist's has to be exposed or they will surely scam the citizens of Ogden into a rip-off that could cost us $50 to $100 million dollars before the dust settles.
In the general category of implied untruths: Mrs. Curmudgeon was down at the Mall to day, and saw the sample gondola, and watched the video that runs constantly inside. Hizzonah was of course prominent on it. But she also reports that the video had shots of skiing at... of course... Snow Basin. Implying that the gondola/gondola system would provide skiiers access thereto? No. Surely not.....
What I want to know is this:
Will a gondola feasibility study be done before the city sells off the land or after?
I would be concerned if the City's administration wanted to sell the land off before any real hard data was compiled about the gondola. Then I would be more likely to believe that CP really is in it just for the real estate.
Anon:
Good question. Smart Growth Ogden has been arguing I think that the city should not even consider making any commitment of land, money or other public resources to this real estate speculation until the basic financial, engineering and seismic feasiblity studies have been commissioned by Mr. Peterson and executed. Only after it has become clear that the projects are at least feasible can the Planning Commision, City Council and general public begin discussing with any seriousness whether the projects would be wise for Ogden to support.
Have to tell you, the way the Lift Ogden folks and Hizzonah continue to spread mis-information about the projects [that the gondolas will connect with Snow Basin for example or that folks can fly into Salt Lake International Airport and board the Frontrunner for effortless transport to Ogden] suggest to me two things: {a} they know the real-estate specualtion they are proposing is in big trouble and (b) they understand that spreading mis-information is the only way they can convince people the overall scheme is feasible. What that suggests about the true feasibility of the gondola/gondola scheme and Peterson land specualtion I leave you to conclude on your own.
Dian,
When you quote the brochure,
"This project makes Ogden the only city in the U.S. connected to a ski resort..."
and then ask,
"(What about Park City?)"
I think we can let the "gondoliers" off the hook on this one. I don't think most people consider Park City a city. They have enough real lies, you don't have to make up fictitious ones.
On the other hand, I just saw Hizzoner's monthly propaganda on channel 17, where he's still talking about the rail line from the airport, and how CP's gondola we relieve Snowbasin's parking "problems".
I hadn't heard the parking problem one before. Like skiers are going to drive downtown to park, shlep their gear onto a gondola, then another gondola (at what charge?) to get to the top of the mountain (where they'll leave their gear?) with the hope that the weather hasn't caused the lift to close when they want to go home. Think I'll just drive up with my friends: cheaper, quicker, more convenient, and more reliable.
Anon...'more likely to believe that CP really is in it just for the real estate.'
Are you not convinced already?
Do you see a sliver of merit to this scheme as it is being pushed by Hizzoner, CP, and 'the groupies'?
What does anyone know about the rumor that the Petersons' marriage may be sliding down the rocks of Malan's Basin??
I think I now know how 1200 persons will have jobs: At all the transfer stops passengers will need help with the bags, etc...so that effort could employ about a dozen people.
Then just schlepping the WASTE onto the construction tram will most likely take the muscles of several dozen sewer rats. I suppose transfer tickets will be necessary, and several cute girls could be hired to handle that job.
And the rest would be maids, dishwashers, short order cooks, gondola car sweepers and cleaners, the list is practically endless.
Don't forget all the construction jobs too.
Propsperity for our dying town.
BTW, where will the waste tram go to dump the stuff? Will it glide over our city full of.....excrement? THAT will do a lot for luring patio diners downtown!
Cheers to our gentle readers!
We're in the process of organizing and compiling the information you've provided so far on this topic to one of our archives pages.
I'm confident, though, that there's still much more to be revealed.
Hopefully, we'll have the embryonic version of our "Tall Tales Summary" available for perusal sometime this weekend on our archive site, though.
Keep your analyses pouring in. This will be an ongoing project.
We also want to extend a special welcome to our newest poster, WSU Physics Professor Dan Shroeder, who provided us much grist for the mill yesterday.
Not to worry, Dan. We'll be operating under the Marquis of Queensbury rules here, with respect to the Gondola Land-grab issue.
Head butting, Rabbit Punches, Low Blows, Brass Knuckles and other "cheap shots" will not be allowed.
Keep on revealing the lies, gentle people.
Feasibility study? There have been two for the proposed urban gondola. The first was done in 2004 by a consultant who specializes in gondolas (used to work for a manufacturer), and was paid for ($62,000) by the city. This study looked at an alignment along the east bench (now abandoned), as well as an alignment along Harrison ending in front of WSU; for the latter, the predicted cost was $23.15 million not counting any contingency margin. (This is probably the source of the rounded-down "$20 million" figure that the Lift Ogden folks throw around--but they've since added two more stations and a leg across the WSU campus.) The second study was the "transit corridor study" sponsored by the city, UTA, and Wasatch Front Regional Council, which also looked at streetcar, light rail, and bus rapid transit options. This study is well summarized (and posted in full) here.
If there have been any feasibility studies of the other components of the project (golf course, foothill development, mountain gondola, Malan's Basin resort), the results are a secret. I'm told that Peterson has an expert who's trying to come up with a less ridiculous design for the golf course and foothill development than the one they unveiled in April. I've also heard second-hand that there is a geotechnical consultant who's doing some work. I predict that the results of these studies will belong to Peterson and that he will not release them, at least not in full. This will leave the decision makers in the dark regarding whether the whole thing is feasible. It sure sounds like the plan is for the City Council to sign off on the sale as soon as possible, and to give them no more hard facts than they demand.
By the way, another tall tale is that Godfrey tried everything else first to try to attract businesses to downtown, and only turned to the gondola concept recently. And there's the related tall tale that the foothill development proposal was Peterson's idea (according to Godfrey) or Godfrey's idea (according to Peterson). As documented here, Peterson and Godfrey have been working together on gondola schemes for over six years, practically since the day Godfrey took office.
And here's another one I forgot yesterday: The gondola won't need to be air conditioned! When they had their gondola set up outside Union Station a few weeks ago, on a sunny day with the temperature in the 70's, I stepped inside by myself and closed the doors, making sure both windows (about a square foot each) were wide open. It got uncomfortably hot and stuffy in about a minute. I can hardly imagine what it would be like with eight people in there for a 24-minute ride in July.
Southsider said...
Dian,
When you quote the brochure,
"This project makes Ogden the only city in the U.S. connected to a ski resort..."
and then ask,
"(What about Park City?)"
I think we can let the "gondoliers" off the hook on this one. I don't think most people consider Park City a city. They have enough real lies, you don't have to make up fictitious ones.
I was not making anything up.
In 1884 Park City incorporated as a city.
Park City today operates under a council/manager form of government, and has a municipal code, planning commissions, police and fire, animal control, and all the rest that cities have. Because it is one.
Utah History Encyclopedia
ParkCity.org
Dian,
I didn't mean to imply that you were "making anything up" when you implied that Park City was a city. Only that most people would consider it something less (say, a town), and categorizing it as not a city would not make someone a liar. So I think you were making up the lie. Why bother when there's so many real lies out there.
Does any historian know about an early gondola in Ogden? And the particulars?
Mercy...if the gondola cars are not air conditioned...here are more job opportunities: SMALL boys (if child labor laws can be expended) could wave large palm fronds over the passengers...rather like Miz Scarlett enjoyed as she napped on a hot afternoon. Remember Gone With the Wind?
Hey Southsider-
Somebody from NYC might say that Ogden really isn't a city.
It's all relative, my friend.
Why would anyone ride the gondola?
Good question.
There are gondolas in Europe that when you ride those you are user into some of the most spectacular scenery.
However, We will see a scenery of blighted area of Ogden, I don’t mean from my point of view but, from the Ogden City Council Point of view which they themself many years ago have declared it blighted.
The only real scenery that would be worth looking over would be the golf course. Oh of course silly me. That will be gone to help pay for the golf course. Instead there will be new Million dollar homes in that area that will sell like hot cakes on a hot summer evening with home montages now hoover around 6.75% interest rates.
Along knowing that strangers, not only can look into your back yard from 50-100 feet up but also look into your windows as well. I mean if I was going to spend that kind of money on a new home. I for sure would find it in another location like South Ogden, North Ogden or Shadow Valley. Not one that is just below a possible avalanche area. Where the sun doesn’t come up in the morning until about 11:00 because I would have a mountain in my back yard that I end up being in the shadow of.
These homes will sell like hot cakes, like the new condo development project on lower 25th street. (Remember the developer had to file for bankruptcy). That was another brilliant Idea of Godfrey. Speaking of brilliant Ideas remember Christmas Village was placed next to a bar on lower 25th street for parents to bring their little children to see, so they can be educated by seeing drunks and hookers at work, while the ample theater was being built. Along with ripping down a mall and other business building with it...(and we all know that this didn’t cost the taxpayer a single dine, Ha Ha, right ;)
All of these are very good Ideas if this guy work for the privet sector he would be fired or even committed for the public’s good and for his own good as well.
Remember, Hitler had some very good ideas as well and the people voted for him overwhelming. Oh, that right those ideas where also called pie-in-the-sky ideas as well.
Chris first threw out the number of Gondola-recruited students that would come to Weber State (1000) and the income this would generate ($9M) at his WSU presentation. When the audience looked skeptical, he said this was a number just pulled out of the air as a possible example of the benefits of the gondola to the community.
Now, apparantly without further research, it is being presented as "could easily bring". If 1000 out-of-state students were to descend on WSU, they would at a minimum need the following:
1. Additional instructors
2. Additional classroom space
3. Housing.
4. Additional parking (can't take the gondola to Smith's, to the dentist's, or on dates to places other than the downtown adventure center or Malan's basin).
Right now the State Legislature has approved funding for planning renovation/rebuilding of Buildings 1 & 2. They have not appropriated money for their actual construction. This will take years.
WSU is a State University, not a mom and pop store where new employees can be recruited and paid as soon as money accumulates in the till. There is a complex budgetary process to be complied with.
Additional parking? Those spaces will already be taken by the multitudes leaving their cars on the streets of the East Bench to hop the gondola to Chris' ski resort.
Things of interest in the Standard Examiner this weekend:
An article on the back page of the business section yesterday stating that North Ogden is interested in attracting outlet stores and a care facility.
An article on the front page of Sunday's paper stating that the results of the recent gondola "poll" will not be released to the public.
An opinion piece by Anne Milner, the President of WSU, and Richard E. Kendell, Commissioner of Higher Education for the State of Utah regarding the proposed Peterson project, Sunday Opinion Section.
An article on the front page of the Sunday Sports section about the proposed sale of Mount Ogden Golf Course, very detailed, including quotes from the mayor and the public.
It seems that the Mayor and his sycophants are simply discarding or down playing any possible contigency that does not fit in with their Gondola Scheme.
For instance they say that the gondola cars will not have to be air conditioned and heated. This evidently would cost several million more. Their solution is merely to open the windows as the cars will be traveling 15 miles per hour and the breeze woud keep the cars cool. Nothing about this as a solution to the heating problem in the winter.
There are at least three months of the summer around here that the temperature is in the ninties and sometime a hundred. So to prove their theory about air conditioning, one only has to cruise down the street in those months at fifteen miles per hour with your window open to see how highly effective this solution would really be. Pack your car full of people first to get the real effect.
On the other hand try driving around in your car in the winter without the heater.
It occurs to me that the mayor and his circle will say any lie necessary to get what they want with the tax payers money and property.
How many recall Jeske talking about an outlet mall when she was campaigning? Recall Donna Burdett, in particular, sneering that an "outlet mall has to be next to a freeway"?
Several of us thot this a viable idea for the mall site. Outlet malls are found all over the country, and not all are located next to a freeway exit. If the billboards advertised such a mall...take exit #...drive to 24th St...etc,...I bet as many tourists would jump off the freeway as Curt G assures us will drop in for a gondola ride while zooming up to Jackson Hole.
He used to say 10% of 3 Million cars would drop into Ogden ....now the figure last quoted was TEN Million cars! Surely, 10% of those vacationers (not to mention the locals) would want to shop at a high-end outlet mall?
Good for No Ogden! It'll be interesting to see if such an enterprise is built there.
Sharon:
Yes, I thought the same when I read that story.
As you've asked several times before: how many development opportunities for Ogden is the Mayor's office passing up in its single-minded obsession with the Peterson gondola/gondola speculation.
I'm sick of the mistruths being spread by the usual suspects. It's good to see the mayor being called out! A couple other mistruths that have really irritated me were: 1) the one about Mr. Peterson being compared to the philanthropists of Ogden old, and 2) the one where this is the biggest thing proposed for Ogden since the railroad--what about DDO, IRS, Weber State's expansion to its currents site, Snowbasin (yes, I do consider that to be part of Ogden), etc. All of those have had somewhat of an impact, right?
How 'bout HAFB?
Thanks, everyone!
Let's keep the list of lies pouring in.
At one of the gondola meetings hosted by the mayor that I attended, the "footprint" homes were discussed. They were portrayed as being second homes, their owners ideal residents "because they would be away most of the time," (!) and would pay the higher property taxes people pay on second homes.
Not so. Since we here in Ogden are on the cutting edge of unique, new, and trendy development, not to mention being cool and sexy, the following may very well apply.
Taken from the May edition of W magazine, in an article entitled "Open Houses:"
These days, the uber rich have a new attitude: Why let the vacation house sit idle when it could be earning rent?
...Renting out one's property may have once carried the embarrassing whiff of financial desperation, but no longer. After all, the days when the landed classes would while away months at a time summering in Newport and wintering in Palm Beach are long gone. Now, success is evidenced by an ostentatiously packed schedule, and renting out one's otherwise idle home has become not only socially acceptable but even a bragging right...
...Many of the rich are also wising up to a tax loophole that allows homeowners to rent out a property for up to 14 days, completely tax free..."
And so on.
This possibility, that we might have a somewhat transient, (although probably wealthy,) population in the Mount Ogden neighborhood, in a situation where most, if not all of the landlords are of the absentee (although again, probably wealthy,) type, is not what I would call a plus.
Instead of believing that these will be homes that will be empty most of the time, there is this other possibility that we should at least bear in mind.
"My chateau is expensive to keep going," says Olivia Decker, whose villas have been rented by Sharon Stone and Lenny Kravitz. "To heat it in winter is $3,000 a day."
See? Even Olivia is concerned about the fuel bill.
W
Dian:
Something else to consider: homes that are empty for months at a time [and rentals peak in ski season, decline dramatically the rest of the year] are vectors for crime. Unoccupied dwellings in resort areas are prime targets for break-ins. Doubt this? Well, in fact, the break-in and theft problem is precisely why, the Mayor told us at one of his Tuesday evening soirees, the owners will want a gated community: to reduce break-ins and theft. So he is fully aware of the problems that come along with only seasonally occupied residential developments.
Those in the Mt. Ogden community might want to consider whether putting 400 vacation homes, likely to be only intermittantly occupied during most of the year [as the Mayor assures us they will be], will not be akin to hanging a sign on the borders of our neighborhood to burglars and break-in artists saying "Y'all come!"
Just another possbile consequence to think about. We don't want the "law of unintended consequences" to come back and bite us all on this one.
I just can't wait to see all those 400 fat cats sitting through the little mayor's 8 hour good landlord class each year.
Oh, I love it!
The mayor says those people (wealthy ones) buying Peterson's footprints awill be ideal resident because they'll be away most of the year!!
Now, now, Matt...is that a welcoming, friendly attitude?
I guess having renters...esp those who may only stay 14 days at at a time would be better neighbors?
This guy comes up with the @#%!@$^& statements of nonsense of anyone I've ever heard!
I am concerned about a current article that I have just read on the Ogden City web site. This article is about the proposed Gondola/Resort. http://www.ogdencity.com/displayarticle50.html On the Frequently Asked Questions portion of the article I would like to point out question #20.
20. How will the gondolas be paid for and maintained?
The gondola will be operated and maintained by Chris Peterson.
I think this is a question on every Ogden City tax payers mind. But, it seems that the answer was suspiciously designed to misinform. The first part of the question asks "How will the gondolas be paid for?" It seems to me that the answer was not given. The answer tells us whom will operate and whom will maintain the gondola, not whom will be paying for the gondola.
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