If you haven't been pulled over and ticketed in Ogden today because of your bad driving... There may be a reason...
Ogden City
POLICE DEPARTMENT
Chief Jon J. Greiner
2186 Lincoln Avenue, Ogden, UT 84401
801-629-8221 FAX 801-629-8086
PRESS RELEASE
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
6-23-06
12:30 pm
Subject: Police Department Work Action (“Blue Flu”)
Due to perceived inequities in wage negotiations between the Ogden Police Benefit Association and the Ogden City Administration, along with the Ogden City Council, most of the rank and file officers of the Ogden Police Department due to report for duty today have called in sick. It is believed that this organized effort will carry through the weekend and that there will be a significant reduction of available field officers throughout that time.
All available staff officers, of the rank of Lieutenant and above, have reported for duty and will work extended shifts. Also, several surrounding agencies have agreed to send officers from their agencies into Ogden to handle calls for police service. The Ogden Police Department has an excellent working relationship with sister agencies in Weber County and is very appreciative of their willingness to assist.
The citizens of Ogden should be advised that there is no disruption to the safety levels provided them. However, some of the lower priority calls for service may not receive service or may have to wait until later in the coming week. Also, some of the calls will be handled by officers in the uniform of a neighboring jurisdiction. The Police Department apologizes for any inconvenience this may cause. Any call for service involving physical risk to life and/or safety will still receive the prompt service that the Ogden Police Department has always provided. Please bear with us as we work to get through this situation.
[no signature]
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Our insiders indicate that a total of four (4) rank-and-file police officers mysteriously showed up for their shift(s) today notwithstanding the obvious virulent virus.
We understand that Chief Greiner will be out in a patrol-car tonight, writing up his "fair-share" ticket quota.
Comments are welcome as always.
Update 6/25/06 12:26 p.m. MT: This morning's Salt Lake Tribune story reports, among other things, that the inevitable backwash from the Ogden council's salary issue inaction has already begun:
Sgt. Troy Arrowsmith, president of the Ogden Police Benefit Association, said, although the department managed OK, that might not be the case in days to come. Six to 12 officers have interviewed with other law enforcement agencies, signaling more serious side effects of the so-called blue flu.The predictable exodus of Ogden's Finest thus begins. Time will tell whether our city administration and council have been penny wise and pound foolish with respect to public safety salary negotiations.
"Most of it is they can only put in so many years without being satisfactorily compensated for their time here," he said.
57 comments:
Maybe Greiner can give Mark Johnson and Matt Godfrey a warning, for screwing with the Cops and Firefighters. And throw a couple of warnings to the Matt's cowardly council.
During these past few weeks when I have been writing here about the police and fire labor negotiations, I wrote about them because I thought they were one of the most important, if not The Most Important issue we were facing.
We all know that there are huge salary inequities in city government. The perks and triple digit figures on the one side--the having to work two jobs on the other. How must it have been to go into the Council Chambers and see the triple digit individuals there agreeing that there was absolutely no more money for salaries for police and fire? And later, what was it like to get pushed back behind the public comments, wait afterwards outside during the closed executive session, and then be told no?
We talk a lot about money on this board, about how much things cost and will cost, and about our high taxes, and how much time it will take to pay our debt, but there's another factor in all this--the human factor. It's more difficult to discuss, because it can't be put on a spreadsheet, or explained in concrete terms. But it's been there, very visibly, in these negotiations, throughout the last few council meetings.
I watched the police presentation at the council hearing. A great deal of emphasis was put on the community outreach programs in which these men and women participate, donating their own money and free time frequently, to do whatever they can to help those at risk in Ogden, attempting to prevent crime as well as deal with it. I remember especially the pledge--We have made a commitment to Ogden. And the statement made by the spokesman: They are not apart from this community; they are a part of this community.
It was, I believe, the individual who recently gave up his city subsidized Hummer who made the city's presentation informing them that there was not enough money for raises.
That's what I mean about the human element. These things are mainly about money, but they are not only about money. There are other things one can't put a price on, like appreciation and respect, and fairness, willingness to deal, and perhaps keeping one's word, and those things seemed in some ways as lacking as the dollars were said to be.
And so, in my opinion, this was more than simply to be expected. As we know, the blue flu has an environmental cause, and frequent outbreaks are known to occur under certain conditions. We can send its victims our best wishes for a fast recovery, but we should also be understanding, because these things do occur.
After all, despite all the risks they take, the hours they put in, and their ability to do an extremely hazardous job and do it well, they're still human.
Quisling (kwiz'lin), n, Traitor, One who betrays his comrads or countrymen.
Alternate spelling - Glassman.
Yes, Glassman is a traitor. He came to us needing help to get elected. He promised that he would represent our interests to the hostile city administration. We walked the walk and talked the talk for him. We rallied, handed out broshures, knocked on doors and spent our own funds to get him elected to the council.
We succeeded, he was elected because of our indorsments and hard work. Within the first month he betrayed us over the 229 bill before the legislature. Then when it really got down to crunch time with our salary negotiations he completely walked out on us. He didn't have the guts to show up for any work sessions or council meetings where our cause was being deliberated. He is hiding out and pretending to be ill so he doesn't have to face us and the fact that he is a traitor. His refusal to even vote one way or the other is a good indication of his lack of character. His excuse that he hadn't been in the discussions and so he shouldn't vote is proof of his low integrity.
There were some who knew of his past record and history in town, and who were suspicious of him and his honesty. They were nervous about backing him. We should have listened. Jorgenson was not our friend, but at least he was honest about where he stood.
The vote was 5-1, so Glasmann's vote, had he have been there, is hardly the question. It's easy to point fingers, especially when you're so damned void of the facts. The guy's been severly ill for over three weeks and without having been in on any of the discussions, how could he make a vote at the eleventh hour?
As for the Legislature, that has always been the Leadership's job to do lobbying. One councilmember went down there, got in a little hot water and was basically taken to task over it.
Don't blame this on any one councilmember, blame it on the union's violating the process. Obvious someone needs a fall guy and knowing Glasmann the way I do, he'll stand up to it, but it won't be right on your part to regail him, especially in this time of ill health. Gimme a friggin break, doctor!
What do you mean by "the union's violating the process?" What did it do?
And this guy expects us to vote him in office? Now I understand police officers are under paid, but he has the responsibility to manage that department not make excuses for them.
I cannot vote for a incompetent leader!
"Due to PERCEIVED inequities in wage negotiations...."
Shame on you, Cheif Greiner. Those were real inequities in the wage negotiations.
Dian, you said it so eloquently. These public SERVANTS do more than hand out tickets and race to fires!
As you reminded us, they are involved in this community. I used to work with the families in the inner city.
Some of those children were SO thrilled to SHOP WITH A COP! Not only to go shopping at KMart, but to BE WITH a POLICEMAN and have his attention and good will.
One of our policemen visited in our home recently and made the observation that, "Police aren't feared anymore." By that he meant there is no respect. No fear of consequences for shooting or killing a cop.
It seems to be happening in this country EVERY day! Too many of these incidents are right here in Ogden.
These police and firefighters start their careers in this city at the lowest pay in Utah!!!
How shameful. They drive old cars. They struggle to provide for their families and give their children some of the things that kids enjoy and yearn for.
Shame on Mark Johnson! Shame on this whole administration. Shame on this council, Jeske excepted, who didn't vote FOR these city employees and public SERVANTS!
Bill Glassman has been and is very ill, as I have been apprised. I wish him well. However, I believe he knows the issue very well. Since he attended the council meeting, and heard the discussion in the closed meeting, I believe he had enough info to vote!
Paying 98% health insurance, car insurance, hefty car allowance IN ADDITION to expense account allowances, etc, etc, is sinful, in my view, when the folks who hit the streets (and they can be mean) everyday are told they aren't appreciated nor respected.
Patterson receives $525. mo car allowance, plus the above perks. Dave Harmer receives $375. monthly car allowance. Greiner: $375. monthly car allowance. Mark Johnson: $375. car allowance, plus car insurance!
Patterson and Harmer receive over
$24,000. and $27,900. respectively, OVER the national
wages of their counterparts.
And they have the gall to say there is no fat in the budget?
The mayor can traipse off to Europe and be wined and dined by gondola makers? The gondola maker has a company right here in the USA, not very far away! Excluding the impropriety of the mayor pimping for a private devloper, he could have wined and dined HIS guests right on Historic 25th Street.
The mayor and his 'yes men' have spent several thousand dollars ('single digit') we are told...hah! to exploit the gondola scheme.
And the Council STILL has not been formally apprised of the 'concept'.
But, I digress. All these people earn BIG Bucks with BIG perks. Just think how insulting this is to the police and firefighters.
How disgraceful was it for them to sit for hours waiting to hear the NO vote? Garcia didn't even show them the respect of comment.
I think that some business people who may have been inclined to settle here are shying away from a city with a mayor and administration that disdains the very people that keep us safe. An administration that refuses to take care of the infrastructure and yet wants new housing and new businesses to open shop and be a burden on this lousy infrastructure? Don't buy above 23rd street, unless you like orange rusty water.
Anyone catch the picture of the broken water main shooting water a couple stories high in LA this week? Get ready.
If this administration would get off the dole, and take away the paid memberships for city employees to Gold' Gym....I bet there would be money in the budget for these brave men and women.
BTW.. take a good look at Greiner's campaign sign. He's using in part the CITY police car logo!!! Improper? I think so.
But, what's one more impropriety in this town, eh?
Oh, T Rex....'nefarious' was the word the editorial writer used in the SE yesterday. Reread. I was quoting.
The admin I mentioned above, including Cook, Greiner, Mathieu have 98% health insurance paid.
I have no quarrel with that health insurance for the police chief and the fire chief.
But 98% for the others PLUS all their other perks is galling.
Somewhat "abused" the process would be the more accurate word. Little or no negotiation before going to impasse. Seems the process wasn't given much of a chance to work.
As for the Beech Babe, I guess one 1 hr. Closed Session is enough in her mind for someone to cast an informed vote while all the others spend several nights in discussion. And I think that T-rex has already credited the word "nefarious" to the Editorial and explained that you used it in that context.
You, lady, need to read, get your facts straight and stop trying to be a know-it-all.
"Something's rotten in" Ogden!! This old guy has got a good ear for listenin' and what I've been hearing is really disturbing.
Of course the way the negotiations went with the police and fire was troubling and the cowardly way the Council handled it even more so. But now we have Bill Cook imitating the Mayor by holding his own secret little meetings with each Councilmember. I understand the subject is to be appointments to the Planning Commission. There are three positions that expire at the end of this month, one is a retirement, but the other two could be reappointments if Godfrey would reappoint them, but the scuttlebut has it that he isn't so inclined because these two men have a mind of their own, which doesn't serve Godfrey's purpose. So my guess is that Bill Cook is meeting with each Councilmember alone to persuade them to go along with the nominees the Mayor WANTS on the Planning Commission TO REPLACE THE TWO WHO ARE INDEPENDENT THINKERS! Do you suppose the Mayor is stacking the Planning Commission so that he will have a majority vote for rezoning the golf course and amending the general plan so that he can sell out Ogden? The Mayor has already taken care of the Council so that he will have a majority vote to rezone the golf course and amend the general plan. What has he got on Glassman? Doug Stephens seems to be listening to Glassman -- what happened to the independent thinker?
Hamlet's problems seem a bit trifle when compared to what Godfrey is doing to Ogden. Some of you will say:
1. "Oh, NO! Godfrey is doing so much for Ogden! Look, he's got Chris Peterson willing to invest $500 million in Ogden" -- excuse me! When I heard Chris Peterson's presentation, he said that the investment WOULD BE WORTH $500 million when it was all built -- BIG DIFFERENCE!
2. "But the gondola, resort at Malan's Basin and the gated community of million dollar homes is what Ogden needs to start bringing businesses to Ogden!" -- Are you blind? Regrowth and development has already started, and could be so much faster if Godfrey would welcome ALL companies with open arms as he does the ski companies. A friend told me that he talked with a developer after he had met with Godfrey, and his comment was, "Ogden can rot in hell before I'll do business with Ogden when they have such an attitude!" There are many other businesses and developers that Godfrey has driven away because they aren't in his narrow scope of tunnell vision.
3. Besides we were told that the recreation center was going to be the thing that saved Ogden -- businesses would come! Tourists would come! What will Godfrey's NEXT scheme be? Businesses have started to come -- be patient -- it takes a little while for redevelopment and growth! Why do we have to sacrifice our beautiful open space and a golf course that is operating in the black now to satisfy the greed of a couple of men? Remember Chris' original proposal? A resort village at Malan's Basin and a gondola to take people there. Why did the plan change? I wish to hell Godfrey would stop envisioning for Ogden because for the majority of Ogden's citizens, he creates nightmares!
YES! THERE IS DEFINITELY "SOMETHING ROTTEN IN" OGDEN!!
hey View...the council members have plenty to read to be up to speed. They can certainly apprise themselves of what is going on even in their absence....
they can even talk amongst themselves. What a novel idea!
Schwebke, on occasion, writes an account of council doings.
Don't forget, View, that the council, even when all are present, are sometimes left out in the cold and have to beg for info or get it the night they are required to vote. And they are expected to vote. That's why they sometimes make such awful choices.
You do recall the Ernest fiasco?
Don't belabor the SE editorial...using " " marks denotes the fact that one is QUOTING another's words. duh.
I don't 'know it ALL', but I do know that that t shirt someone suggested with the s's...sure fits Johnson the negotiator and his mayor now.
Old Timer...
you sure hit the nail on the head. I guess years of living and experience makes a person wise.
That's what's wrong with the mayor. He's just a spoiled kid.
Do you have suggestions on how the vote for the Planning Commissioners would thwart the mayor's scheming?
If so, please tell us.
Abner, sometimes it seems the Council listens (anyway, some of them do) to phone calls and emails from their constituents. There are two of the Councilmembers up for re-election next year, and they would be wise to listen to their constituents and not the Mayor who has tried to indoctrinate the Council, that they are elected to make the decisions for their constituents because they have the facts, and so they are better able to make the decisions for their constituents. Forget the part about being "servants of the people" or "representing the people" or "government of the people, by the people and for the people." So I suggest that people email and call all the Councilmembers whose vote is doubtful. Here's the info to contact them: Jesse Garcia: 603-8522 and jessegarcia@ci.ogden.ut.us; amywicks@yahoo.com and 627-3399; Bill Glasmann: billglasmann@ci.ogden.ut.us and 621-0009; Rick Safsten: RCSafsten@juno.com and 392-2842; Doug Stephens: dougstephensone@hotmail.com and 393-9796; Brandon Stephenson: joystu1@juno.com and 399-1419; Dorrene Jeske (she votes pretty straight but here's her info anyway) jeske4ogden@comcast.net and 782-5827. I wonder if phone calls and emails wouldn't be helpful to the Mayor and Bill Cook, also. Godfrey: mayor@ogden.com and 621-4524 or 629-8111; Bill Cook: billcook@ci.ogden.ut.us and 393-4704 and 629-8734. Tell them that you're concerned about the appointments to the Planning Commission and that you would like the current Commissioners to be reappointed as they already have received training and are experienced, competent, and independent men/women who are qualified to serve on the Planning Commission. Your stand on the gondola, resort and gated community really should not be a factor here, the issue is appointing QUALIFIED AND INDEPENDENT PEOPLE to the Planning Commission.
When you contact the council, about the Planning Commission, bend their ear abnout the way the Firefighters and Police have been treated in this years negotiations, they did negotiate in good faith for three months, but what good is a negotiation process iof the Fox represents the Administration and the Council, whats the point of going to the Council if the two groups can not be heard by the Council with the exception of a 5 minute speech, while they have heard the Admin slanted side of negotiations for the past three months? Sounds like the system is not right, and they are not following the intent of the negotiation resolution.
Troll flame removed by administrator.
You definitely need to be thinking about a replacement for one member of the Planning Commission, Carol Brockman, who has told me that she is defintely not going to run again.
She has been on for years and feels that she has put in her time.
Dian:
OK, for the record: (a) the Police and Firemen got shafted on their contracts, since they do not make [and should make] at least the regional average for people doing their jobs (b) it seems clear the sliding scale adopted for merit pay raises was punitive in intent --- a punishment for going to impass on the negotiations (c)the city seems not to have negotiated at all with them, but rather simply to have placed an offer on the table and said, repeatedly, to counter offers "our way or the highway." Only in the Alice-In-Wonderland world of the Godfrey Administration can this be considered "negotiation" in any meaningful sense of that term.
Now, with that said, the "blue flu" was, and is, a bad idea. Labor unions representing public employees are at a disadvantage, I agree: they cannot legally strike, and so a major, if not the major, weapon of most unions [if the negotiations fail, we will strike] has been taken out of their hands.
But their members have some advantages too. They work for the government, and so their employer cannot go out of business or outsource their jobs to Sri Lanka or Malaysia or India. This provides a level of stablity under their employeement that workers in the private sector lack. [Talk to any of the millions who've seen their jobs outsourced to Asia or Mexico.]
In the end, the illegal work stopages known by the tongue in cheek term "blue flu" are a bad idea. Bad for the public. Bad for the police. And it is a violation of the public's trust, no matter how pissed off the police are, and no matter how justified their anger.
They do have an option, and from what we've heard, some of them and some firemen are taking it: leaving the Ogden police and fire departments to work the same jobs for better pay in other Northern Utah communities. That is a perfectly legal, ethical and understandable way for them to respond to the contract imposed on them this year.
But a strike -- or "blue flu" [wink wink, nudge nudge] epidemic --- is not. In 1919 when the police of Boston, MA went on strike, the governor of Massachuestts, one Calvin Coolidge [who was about to assist the Boston city government in breaking the strike] said "there is no right to strike against the public safety by anybody, anywhere, any time." He was right.
[Damn it all, you've forced me quote a Republican favorably, and not just any Republican, but Calvin Cooledge, for God's sake. It's enough to drive a good Democrat to drink. Don't make me do it again.]
Yeah..and another good republican president, Reagan, fired those air controllers, remember that?
You're either going to end up a sodden drunk, Curm...or a good
Cheers!
oop...to Curm...
REPUBLICAN!
Typical REPUBLICANS!! Run around and act like you support cops and firefighters. Then stick it to them. It’s about time the cops stood up to the politicians.
Where was the Chief or the Sheriff to stand up to the council; I guess when they make over a $100,000.00 a year. They forgot who they are and where they came from.
I wish you all would re-frame from bashing us Republicans.
After all we are the “Righteous Political Party”. Many LDS church leaders have made that clear way back in the 1970's I still believe it. After all we are not for gun control and abortions, nor for flag burning or gay marriages.
That is why I will continue to vote straight Republican ticket, after all I don’t want to burn in Hell. That is why there are many LDS church sponsored radio station that have people like Sean Hennity, Rush Limba, and all the others. Get a clue....Mayor Godfrey and his family from Harrisville are very close friends of my family. They are definitely Republicans...
That is why Richard Richards help with his campaign to get him elected as Mayor of Ogden. (After all he was Mayor Glenn Mecham law partner.)
I believe those COPS are still lucky to have a job. After all they are all a bunch of fat lazy officers that camp out at donut shops day in and day out. It would be very easy to replace these people with Private Security Officers and their wages are a whole lot less money per hour than that of city COPS. I agree with Mayor Godfrey wanting to fire everyone of these not fit for duty COPS. I also agree that the fire department of Ogden needs to be converted to a volunteer Fire Department. That would save the tax payers of Ogden a HUGH chunk of change.
I agree that Mark Johnson should drive a Hummer. That was rude of The Standard Examiner to pick on him because, he is a very high up dignitary in the Mayor Godfrey’s administration. He really needs to have a vehicle of that type for the residents of Ogden to see that he carries a lot of weight and can make things happen.
I also understand that Mark Johnson is a very religious man, once a Bishop and also Stake President of the Ogden Utah Stake, and a very strong Republican as well. After all we need to take care of our dignitaries.
We are the Patriotic political party. Unlike those ungodly Democrats. If they were God’s political party then why don’t that have a chance in Utah to gain any more political elected offices with us righteous Mormons?
D.D.
Gosh! The J Dubs are coming to town again.
Maybe there's a place for some of us who are really confused.
Very funny, Patriotic. That last post was certainly worthy of a good chuckle.
Seriously though, the only council member who stood up for our cops and firefighters the last go round is an active Republican, Dorrene Jeske, who's also a Weber County Republican precinct officer and state/county delegate.
Three of the council members who stuck it to our public safey personnel are definitely NOT registered Republicans.
And of the three registered Republicans who did vote against our Police and Fire personnel, none of them are active in the Weber County Republican party. These are merely nominal Republicans, who wouldn't have the first clue about the Republican Party platform.
There's equal opportuniy stupidity on our council right now, whereby the majority of council members (of varying political persuasions) fail to understand that there's no public benefit in having the lowest-paid public safety employees in Utah.
We'll get what we deserve in the long run with this, by the way, as our best and brightest depart to other jurisdictions, and we're stuck with untrained "volunteers," rent-a-cop leftovers and the dregs who are psychologically unfit to be hired by other departments.
Another View, tell it like it really is: "As for the Legislature, that has always been the Leadership's job to do lobbying. One councilmember went down there, got in a little hot water and was basically taken to task over it." That councilmember did not get "in a little hot water and basically taken to task" for going down to the Legislature. As I was told and understand what happened, the cause of the reprimand was due to the way the information that was learned while there was presented to the Council. It was embarrassing to the Council's Executive Director and he lost his cool and over reacted. I feel you and Glasmann are using that councilmember as a scapegoat because the firemen appreciated the efforts spent by that councilmember in their behalf and chided Glasmann for not fighting to defeat SB 229. This is a free country! Everyone and anyone has the RIGHT to lobby for whatever they want -- even elected officials! Elected officials don't lose any rights or privileges when elected to office! The only difference is that they must tell those that they lobby that they are speaking only for themselves unless the other members of their organization have given them the authority to speak for them.
The real truth is that the council member in question caught Bill Cook red-handed.
He was down at the capitol lobbying the legislature to kill civil service, and he didn't like it very much when he got busted.
How dare you accuse Bill cook being sneaky or underhanded, He to is a strong Republican.
Did I mention that Nate Pierce is a strong Republican and a former Bishop. Also that Mayor Godfrey was a former Bishop and is now the very best High Priest group leader in his ward, that they ever had. That Mayor Godfrey is so religious he was able to get his Father-in-law Ed Allan former Stake President and former Democrat and Utah Senator to see the light and has him writing letters to the Editor Defending Matthew Godfrey.
Get a clue the Republicans are the only ones that really understands the laws of the government and the laws of the church and everyone else are Stupid, Rebellious, Rebel Rousers.
Stupid COPS, Stupid Firefighters, Stupid Democrats.
Hmmmmm....This had been a thread with some more or less serious discussion, including differening opinions, about the "blue flu" and city contracts with the police and firemen's unions. That particular theme seems to have gotten lost along the way in favor of fevered [and feverish] attempts to assign blame. No doubt it makes folks feel better, but it isn't going to accomplish much.
The council in office is the council we have. The vote was pretty lopsided on this last go-round [5-1 with one abstention]. Instead of screeching at Glassman [who abstained, since he had not, due to illness, taken part in the Council sessions regarding the contracts, which seems a perfectly defensible thing for him to have done] for not making the vote 5-2 to absolutely no point, and instead of screeching at Mr. Cook for some [alleged] transgressions last legislative session [when we manifestly do not know the details or the individual council members' involvement, if any], and instead of blaming the Republicans on the Council or the Democrats [pick one], it might be a whole lot more productive to start working now to convince Council members that things have to go differently next time, that they should perhaps make it clear that they expect the city to negotiate with the various unions involved and not simply to lay down one offer and walk off, that perhaps priorities in the budget need to be reordered to bump police and firemen higher on the list. This endless finger-pointing when the council vote was lopsided serves very little point, not to mention taking time and effort away from working on the Council members to make sure something better happens next time.
In the movie "Rising Sun," the protagonist notes that when something goes badly wrong in the United States, Americans try to figure out who is to blame. The Japanese instead try to figure out how to fix it. Sad that political discourse has reached such a parlous state in Junction City that we have to find guidance in Hollywood scripts. But it seems we have indeed reached that point.
Curmudgeon, it is no wonder that Democrats can't get elected if you are a typical example. You are obviously very bright and well read, but your political savvy is breath takingly simplistic. One example is your not seeing the significance of Glasmann's missed opportunity to make it a 5 - 2 loss instead of a 5 - 1 - 1 loss.
He may have lost the support of the Fire men and Police over this. They are a very important part of the political mosaic here. If this is the case, I think he is getting a bum rapp. It is my opinion that he is a strong supporter of our men and women in blue. I think his intentions on this matter have been misconstrued and he has been vilified unjustly.
And of the three registered Republicans who did vote against our Police and Fire personnel, none of them are active in the Weber County Republican party. These are merely nominal Republicans, who wouldn't have the first clue about the Republican Party platform.
Then why did the leading Republican in Weber County; Mayor Godfrey propose the axing of the Cops and Firefighters to the City Council then? You Republicans must be ashamed!!!!
You Democrats still don’t get the point and probably never will.
The point is this:
We are against, Big Government. Which includes, way too many government employees, way too many regulations, way too many high taxes to pay for those so-called services. We are for privatization of all government services. That is why we are always trying to change the United States Constitution, like flag burning! Gay marriages, etc. But the unpatriotic democrats don’t see how that is hurting our country.
We now wouldn’t have this problem with our police and fire departments, because you would simply fire those who are not loyal to our Republican Mayor Matthew Godfrey if it was fully privatized. If thy don’t like their jobs with Ogden City, then go find another job. Oh! that’s right, they can’t, because no one else will hire these lazy donut eating COPS. I don’t blame Mr. Cook going to the legislator to lobby for the police and fire to get rid of their civil service commission. They only protect lazy shiftless COPS and Fireman that should be fired at will.
We all know that the only people that get any kind of government job regardless of it being federal, state, or local government is because, they can not make it on their own in the private sector.
They are government welfare recipients. They are after all only second class citizens, the laws prove my point.
This is even true for school teachers. Why do you think RepublicanMayor Godfrey is for these private school academies? Why do you think that his own children don’t go to public schools? It is because these government schools don not have a good track record. He believes that public schools are way to inferior, by far. They pay their teachers way to much money and you can not get them fired for a poor job. I agree in George Bush’s program that "No Child Left Behind". Actually it should be called “Lazy School Teachers Need To Be Fired”. This is one way to get these lazy people to do their jobs. These school administrators are the only ones that are worth their pay. Because they are fire at will. I can hardly wait for the day when every public school has been replaces by a private academy.
This includes government postal employees that go ballistics when threaten to be fired. which givens them the nick named “GOING POSTAL”.
Republican President Ronald Reagan had the right Idea when he fired every last one of those striking Air Traffic Controllers in the 1980's
According to Weber County election records, Bill Cook is unaffiliated with any political party, although he is registered to vote.
>>>Hamlet's problems seem a bit trifle when compared to what Godfrey is doing to Ogden.
Madness in great ones must not unwatch’d go.
(Exeunt)
Oz:
Ah... I agreed I think that Mr. Glassman was being unfairly criticized for not casting a vote when illness had prevented him from being there for the council meetings [regular and working] dealing with the contracts and budget.
His withholding a vote, particularly since it could have made no difference whatsoever in the outcome, is what I would have done as well. The system we have presumes that Council members actually learn things from public testimony, from work sessions, from researching and debating the decisions before them. The suggestion, that some have made, that Mr. Glassmen had his mind made up on all particulars and so really had no reason not to vote merely because he missed all that I find unreasonable. Why have Council hold public meetings at all, or work sessions, or conduct any research or debate anything if they all have made up their minds on all major issues the morning after election? Just have them phone in their votes on everything and stay home.
I want councilpersons capable of having their votes swayed one way or another by the legislative process, by debate among members, by citizen testimony, by new evidence and alternative ideas coming forward for consideration. We all gain by that. Everyone elected to the council should at least consider the possibility that the ideas he brings to the Council upon election may in fact be wrong. That others may have better information or more information. Glassman voting without having taken part in that process would in effect be him saying it's all meaningless anyway.
I don't think it is. If it is, it shouldn't be. If the Firemen and Police unions supported Mr. Glassman's elections because they had confidence in his judgement on issues that are important to them, and they chuck him over the side because he became seriously ill and so was unable to take part in the budget decisions, I'd say they are the ones who have a thin grasp on political realities.
For the record: I have never met Mr. Glassman and I did not vote for him in the recent Council elections. But fair's fair, guys. The process matters or we'd have no need for a council at all. And effective political work by union reps means building and maintaining strong relationships with Council members, particularly those they think have given, and will give, their views a serious hearing and strong support if convinced by them, and represent those views strongly to other members. If the two unions judged Mr. Glassman to be that kind of councilman and supported him for that reason, it would be the height of foolishness to chuck him over because he got seriously ill during this year's budget process.
Just because you have no proof that he is either a democrat or Republican, still doesn’t change his actions.
Which is the core of a person identity traits. Which is good enough for me. However I know better. Remember just because you do not know doesn't mean that it isn't true.
Which part of "unaffiliated" do you fail to understand?
Curmudgeon:
My tendency is to disagree with you about the walkout, although I do agree that maintaining the public safety is a very necessary thing to do. However, if we examine this, it seems that the public safety has indeed been maintained.
Randy Watt of the OPD made this clear in news interviews:
Assistant Chief Randy Watt/Ogden Police Department: "All is safe. All is well and we'll get through this. We understand the position of the officers. We understand their unhappiness with the city administration over this issue."
Police men and women from other agencies are helping out, and I think that's an important consideration. I would like to think that this "helping out" from other agencies represents a sign of sympathy for the low paid situation of the Ogden police. This to me would be good if it were true.
As I said, I agree that maintaining the public safety is important. But equally important is the fact that those who maintain the public safety also have to be maintained. And who does this?
We do. We pay for the maintenance of those who maintain our public safety. And we elect people, Whom We Also Pay, to admininster those funds to that end, and we Trust those people to do that wisely and not let our hard or our human infrastructure crumble.
A few weeks ago, I watched Dave Harmer present to the Ogden City Council a proposal that involved building two extra stories on a downtown building and guaranteeing the leases for office space to the Boyer Company to the tune of $400,000 a year. What that said to me, and possibly said to the police and fire departments, is that there is more money available.
Obviously, therefore, this is a question of allocating financial priorities, and maintaining those who maintain our public safety seems to have been way down on the list insofar as our elected officials were concerned.
But it goes deeper than that. We know that the final say on how money is allocated is the purview of the Council. And because of the way the negotiating process is set up, the Council is cut out of it. The Council, under the present system, is not allowed to speak to the union reps unless impasse is reached.
Therefore, I don't know if the Council has heard at least one thing I have heard about this situation. If it did hear it, it should have investigated it. This is:
That it has been alleged that there exists, on the part of the city and the firefighters, at least, an agreement that the city would Not tie the merit system to salaries until the firefighters were satisfied that the system was a workable one, it being a relatively new system.
Yet another baffling thing about a vote of the City Council, perhaps relating to what I have said elsewhere about adequate history and information not getting to them and thereby diminishing their effectiveness.
Because if you are in a body of people that has made an agreement to hold off on acting until both parties are agreed, do you then simply act in violation of that agreement?
If you do, the other side of the agreement will call Foul. You might even be called punitive for doing this.
Then, insofar as I can understand, the Council voted not to revisit the matter of police and fire salaries because it would violated the procedures already in place.
And I would ask at this point---wouldn't that agreement regarding the merit system be a part of those procedures?
At this point, what it is looking like is that the Council is calling into play the parts of procedure favorable to it and violating the parts that are not, although in my opinion it is very possible that some Council members were unaware of the agreement of which I am speaking, because otherwise it makes no sense at all that they would violate it.
If one is dealing with that situation, there are three alternatives:
Go to court.
Stay and fight and hope to work it out.
Walk away from it.
I view the blue flu as a choice for option two, and that is why I don't mind it one bit, especially since it seems that the public safety is not all that threatened. They have said they have made a commitment to us. If the people we elect are not dealing fairly with them, then the stay and fight and hope to work it out option could be seen as the least harmful alternative.
Because would it help Ogden City to face yet another lawsuit? Would it help Ogden City to have its police force walk out, never to return? Leaving us to hire and train yet more new people, who will then themselves walk out to other jobs because they can't make it financially here?
This might get to the lawsuit point, and it might get to the forever walkout point. But right now, it seems to me that it is just to the We Are Very Serious point. As in--we have Told you we are serious, now it seems that we must Show you that we are serious.
Something else that no doubt plays into this that perhaps our officials are not taking into consideration is that public safety deals with victims. It deals with enablers. These individuals deal with a lot of very unfair and damaging actions on a day to day basis, and their very jobs consist of sorting that out.
If they perceive that they have been treated unfairly or damaged or victimized, it would be almost impossible for them to simply suffer in silence. They counsel victims every day to Not suffer in silence, to come forward, to right wrongs.
They're not the victim type. And I don't think we want them to be.
KSL, Randy Watt
I was just watching the Channel 5 KSL News “Church owned”. They reported that even though there were many Ogden Police Officers that called in sick for the last two days that the City still was able to carry out police protection to it’s citizens, with the help of the Republican Sheriff Brad Slater to the rescue, along with South Ogden and South Weber. “Without any real interruptions”.
See My point.
It just goes to show you we have too many police officers in this area.
This "Blue Flu" just was a prime example of too many government employees.
By the way “Fact Checker”., Unless you are actually Bill Cook. How do you know that he is "unaffiliated???”.
Some points of clarification might be in order here:
(1) The construction of those extra two floors would be borne by Boyer. If not rented out, the 440K would not occur until 2008, well after other revenues would be generated by the new Junction. Also, approximately 1/2 of the BDO revenues would be available for the General Fund, which could be used for raises and other expenses such vacancies those 2 extra floors might provide, if any. In 2 years, the money would have been there.
(2) The original vote on this sliding scale was 5-1, with ONLY Wicks voting "No" and Glasmann NOT voting because of his absence. How is it that that original vote has been basically swept under the rug and forgotten? If that vote had have been different, and each council member had voted the way they maybe should have, which would have been NOT to impliment this sliding scale, today's issue would not be an issue.
What changed during that next week?
I am going to have to disagree with those who think it was OK for Glassman to abstain. In the legislature if a member is on the floor during the vote they are required to vote. In the training that I received as a new council member that was what I was told. That if there is a conflict of interest that you feel requires you to not vote on an issue that you excuse yourself from the discussion entirely and don't vote. But that all other times if present you are expected to vote. I don't know if it is required but here is one reason.
If you have missed the discussions that provided the information that is needed then you can vote against the measure and if the measure passes then it obviously would have passed even if you had not voted. If you vote against the measure and it fails then you have the oppotunity to research the issue and get educated to the point that you can make an informed vote. Then since you were on the prevaling side of the vote originally you can move to reconsider which motion can only be make by someone on the prevailing side of the original vote.
So there is never a time that a council member should abstain.
Only one time have I refused to vote and it was when the council was putting out a "statement" and I felt the type of statement that was being made should be a unanimous vote by the council to show unity. While not stongly opposing the issue I did not feel that I could support the statement the council was making. I excused myself when the issue came up for discussion and left. When the council was finished with that issue I returned.
Council meetings and worksessions are recorded and minutes are prepared so any member missing a meeting or several has an opportunity to listen to those recordings and hear all the discussion that took place and get informed. There really is no reason to abstain.
After what Fact Checker said about Bill Cook.
He may be “unaffiliated”. This would make sense if he was related to the Salt Lake County “Cook”. You know the ex-congressman Merrill Cook and clan.
You know! The ones that one minute claimed that they are stanch Republicans then the next minute they are no longer affiliated to the Republican Party. Then a few months later they are once again affiliated to the Republican Party depending on which way the political wind in blowing for these fence sitters. You would think that they are sitting on some kind of Lazy Susan sitting on top of the fence pole and turning like a weather vane
I know of these kind all to well.
The word is "recused," which means to physically remove oneself. To abstain is to be present, but because of a any number of a myriad of circumstances that causes the member to feel he or she does not have enough factual input to vote, then it's the member's call to abstain. Glasmann ran on a platform wherein he said he would make informed votes only, after research, supported facts, and Public input, and he would have been derelict to vote on an issue that he felt was void of those facts. Combine that with the understanding that the original vote was made during his absence, and I can see why he choose not to involve himself in attempting to change a vote that was made without his presence. He missed the original vote, he missed the entire 3-4 weeks of wage & salary and impasse discussions. How could he have rendered a vote to change that which the council decided was best at 5-1.
Arcritic has his view and I respect that. But that doesn't mean to say that EVERYONE should have the same view. There are 6 other council members in on this, three supported by the Fire & Police, yet nothing is said about them and their vote on the 13th of June that, again, that started this whole thing.
The Legislature MAY be required to vote but the Council is not. Arcritic is talking apples and oranges here. I'm sure Glasmann had the same training as Arcritic, the new council member, and I'm sure that, after he analyzed the situation and found himself to be uncomfortable with the lack of input, due to his illness, he maybe felt to cast an UNIFORMED vote would be in conflict with his position. There is no LAW that says any council member has to vote on an issue.
Another consideration is, if Glasmann was as ill as has been reported, and I have no reason to believe otherwise, I doubt the guy was ready to study the voluminous papers on the 3 weeks of Work Session issues and do homework. Arcritic assumes way too much here. One needs to walk in one's shoes before one doth criticize.
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About the $400,000---
Our agreement with BDO that states that we have to put a portion of the lease revenue back into BDO to build its infrastructure is up in October 2006, I believe. After that, we get all the lease money. It was my impression that this upcoming cash infusion was why the administration felt comfortable with the lease proposal.
Be that as it may, the fact remains that we will be getting more income from there come October. That is why I stated that the lease discussion gave me the impression that more money was available for a raise in salaries.
I wish the news report mentioning Safsten stating that for the Council to do otherwise than what they did would "damage procedure." Would really like to know more about that. Procedure is supposed to facilitate things, and need not be set in stone. If it's not working, it might be able to be changed if that would make things better.
All options and ideas as to how to make things better should be explored at this point, in my opinion.
As for BDO revenue, I believe the City gets 1/2 to put in the General Fund and 1/2 goes back into the Capital Improvements. Might be wrong, but that's what I've heard.
As for procedure: come to a Bidget Work Session next year. They, like ALL Work Sessions, are open to the Public.
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I'm back and posting on this blog again!
It looks like the "negotiation procedure" SHOULD be changed! It sure as hell didn't work this year! After talking to the Police, I think the Council should look at having a representative at the negotiating table with Mark Johnson. Mark Johnson represents Godfrey PERIOD! He might go to the Council and ask, "What do you want me to do?" But everything that goes to the Police and Fire are what the Mayor demands.
The Police and the City (both administration and council under Mayor Mecham) signed a joint agreement, in which the Police gave several things up for the promise to be brought to a more equal pay with surrounding cities. Of course, the HONORABLE Mayor Godfrey said on becoming Mayor, "Oh, that was made by a previous administration and council, and we don't have to abide by it." But those things that were negotiated away are still gone even though the rest of the agreement was broken. How fair is that?! Then Mark Johnson told the Police that they would be brought up to the 50 per centile in wages by 2006 if they would agree with "no pay increase" for two years. I'll bet the Council is unaware of that! For two years they received "no pay increase" which took them farther down the pay scale. Well, it's 2006, and where are the Police on the pay scale? Still near the bottom! It's this kind of negotiations and broken promises that were the cause for a breakdown in negotiations this year. It's been accumulating ever since Godfrey took office.
I am not in any way affiliated with the Police Department and so the administration should not take any action against coming down on them. But when you make a bunch of guys angry enough, you can find out a lot if you take the time to talk to them! Like I said, and this is to the Council: You SHOULD consider a new way to negotiate with the City's employees! It's almost laughable if it weren't so stressful for the Police and Fire personnel that you voted the way you did to save a failing procedure! Get your heads out of the sand! Open your eyes! With all the deceit and lying done by the administration everytime you turn around, you are still gullible enough to trust them to do your negotiations for you! Were you born yesterday?! YOU ARE THE MAYOR'S LAP DOGS! IT'S DISGUSTING!
The council just can't win, can it? So easy to criticize when you don't walk in their shoes or attend their meetings.
Spoken like a true lapdog!
Woof!
Disgusted:
Sounds like you and I have been hearing the same things. My question is: Has the Council heard them?
In the reports during the negotiations given to the Council, provided there were any, was it said:
It is alleged that we have an agreement with them that we will not tie their merit system to their salaries. Furthermore, some of them have not had a raise for four years and the consequence of this is that they have people who have been there for four years making the same salary as a new, first year person. Possibly, the reason that the police asked for a 22% raise is that it is alleged that for the past few years, there have been promises of raises that haven't come through, and that 22% request might be an accumulation of those promises. They have requested a cost of living allowance, too. They have an incredibly high turnover because new hires leave for better salaries as soon as we spend the money to train them, and both police and fire in Ogden therefore have a shortage of seasoned and experienced people. We spend time and money training people only to have them leave us as soon as they can find a way out, and the fire department could do with a few more staff. Basically, that's where we are.
Did anyone ever say that, or something similar, to the Council, I wonder.
WATCH OUT!!!!!
...OPBA members explained, "Officers now feel obligated to do what it takes to score a 4.5 or higher on a scale of 1 to 5 to earn the five percent pay raise. That means, officers must now issue one hundred tickets a month."
According to OPBA members, that is double what officers were required to write last year. "If anyone was in my same situation, they'd be doing the same thing, that is I'm going to meet what I need to meet in order to get my raise," Draper said.
ABC 4
Dian:
In re: "Watch Out!" Why? Because Ogden police may be writing more traffic tickets? Well, from what I see everyday on Ogden's mean streets, if there is a problem, it is not that more tickets may be written, but that right now, way too few are being written.
The real problem with a surge in "ticket for pay" actions is it may [and almost certainly will] take officers away from more important duties as they arise, especially if more people begin contesting the tickets rather than simply mailing in the fines.
And it runs another risk: if the ticketing involves ticketing "offenses" that are normally not ticketed, or writing tickets on the thinest of justifiable grounds [going 56 in a 55 mile an hour zone by way of example], it runs the risk of angering the public.
The police got screwed in the budget this year. That is unquestioned. So did the firemen. But "lashing out" [blue flue, a wave of marginal tickets issued] is not an effective way to respond. I understand the anger, the frustration and the emotionally satisfying appeal of lashing out.[Been there; done that; got the tee shirt.] It is not an effective tactic in most circumstances. Nor is threatening it. They just don't work by way of getting what you want, which is in this case a better contract as soon as possible.
Watch Out! meaning to watch your driving.
Actually, I don't view the blue flu or this latest as lashing out, or punitive to the public. We must remember that this 100 ticket a month quota is tied to that merit system, which we hear there are problems with. I look at that statement by Draper as sort of an---All right, you're on.
Because Mr. Draper and his co-workers are now in a system where they have to make a quota in order to get a raise in salary. We can't very expect them to not try to do that. The system which they now work under was approved by the Ogden City Council. It was not their idea, in other words.
I absolutely agree with you that tickets for money is a bad way to do things. But the way I'm looking at this now is that we have policemen and women willing to stay in the force here and not only work within the system, but excel in it. No way can we have a problem with people who want to be the best at what they do.
And speaking of mean streets---ever been stopped at a red light, intending to proceed straight ahead, no signal on, and when it turns green, the person opposite you whips out and makes a left turn right in front of you? I look at this as an Only in Ogden thing. Never had this happen anywhere else. It happens most frequently at 28th and Harrison, me going west, offender pointing east to turn north, in case anybody who needs a quota is reading this.
You do have to remember that there is a limit as to how many officers can leave. There are only so many jobs out there. There will usually be more officers applying than there are positions. Some are going to end up not having a choice to be an officer somewhere else. In that case the option becomes leave law enforcement or live with crappy pay.
I agree with Crum that if the cops start giving ticky tack tickets (even, and maybe especially, if they claim they need to meet a quota to get their raise) they will probably lose the support of the people. Not really a great position for the cops.
Plus I would like to see the performance evaluation criteria that says they get so high for so many tickets. There is always talk of quotas for tickets and there is always denial of quotas. Can't have it both ways.
Agree with Arcritic on the quota thing.
For as long as I can remember police ticket quotas have been reviled and associated with political, police and judicial corruption.
Police forces all across the country have resisted using, and denied they use quotas, at least the ones with integrity have.
Quotas definately cause police, and city's that practice it, to lose the respect and confidence of their citizens.
Ogden city administration has lost that respect and confidence a long time ago. It would be a real shame if our great men and women of the OPD were to share that same shame.
patriot, wow!!! you scare me. are you a smartass democrat? or dumbass republican. Either way you make me laugh, I hope your words are not serious. You'd make a great comic.
What do you mean a Smart ass democrat or a dumb ass Republican. There is no such thing as either one. All Republicans are Smart and all democrats are stupid. Just look at George Bush, compared to Bill Clinton, Dan Quayle compare to Al Gore.
Richard M. Nixon to John F. Kennedy. Spiro Agnue or Nelson Rockefeller to Lyndon Johnson. No contest!!!! Gerald Ford to Jimmy Carter.
See my point, Only the Republicans are the only ones to figure out this national debt brought to us by the Tax & Spend democrats. If Bill Clinton was defeated when he ran against George Bush Sr. The nation would be totally out of debt by now. “See contract with America”. If the Republican should win every seat in congress and in the Senate. The tax beaks for all of Patriotic Americans would even be larger than what it is now, This means us hard working Republicans, not for the Lazy Democrats, COPS, Firemen, School teachers, Postal workers, or illegal aliens. Which also includes any government employee that get a paycheck from the government. Except Administrators appointed by Republican Elected officials.
Do you understand that the Supreme court JUSTICES of the United States can be appointed without hearings as a matter of fact all judges can be appointed without any interruptions in the court systems. Just think of all the time wasted for hearings.
There would be no wasted hearing like for the Iran/contra, domestic spying program,
hearing for the oil energy secret meeting with Vice President Dick Cheney.
No wasted hearing on that Valerie Plum with the CIA
No more oil dependency from OPEC. Because we can just start drilling oil any way in
good old U.S.A. The Bankruptcy laws would be totally eliminated, except only for corporations.
Now that is what I call a very effect US government.
There will be only mandatory jail time for anyone that breaks the laws.
Flat taxes for everyone from the rich to the poor. With no loop-holes for democrats.
It is too bad the democrats are just plain stupid.
Can you even imagine the heart break of a parent that has a child that is so completely stupid as this "patriotic" that is posting this drivel that makes so little sense?
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